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ChaosAngel
Apr 2, 2011, 11:44 AM
Hi all,

I'm currently testing Mac OS X Lion (as a Mac Dev), but I’m interested to hear peoples thoughts on how they think it will compare to Windows 8. For those who haven't seen, a lot of Windows 8 information has already been leaked.

In my opinion Windows 8 is already looking very good and although I’m loving Mac OS X Lion, I can't help but think that the advantage OS X used to have over Windows is quickly being eaten away.

Personally, I really hope Apple have some big new features in Lion that they haven't yet revealed (maybe waiting for WWDC?).

Thoughts? :apple:



simsaladimbamba
Apr 2, 2011, 11:48 AM
Is Windows 8 then Windows 7.0, like Windows Seven is actually Windows 6.1?

applefan289
Apr 2, 2011, 11:49 AM
What I like about Apple is not only the great products, but also their professionalism. Microsoft does not give off the "kid in a candy store" vibe, and the Microsoft website just feels clunky.

I guess those were not good examples, but even if Windows 8 beats Lion as far as the OS itself, Windows 8 will not beat Apple's marketing, professionalism, and "with it" mind set.

Lone Deranger
Apr 2, 2011, 11:49 AM
MS still playing catchup by the looks of the feature list in my opinion.

Nothing there to tempt me away from OSX. Not even tempting enough to make me upgrade my W7 license.

(And my god that desktop background image looks hideous).

Hellhammer
Apr 2, 2011, 11:50 AM
There is no beta of Windows 8 yet so it is hard to say. MS can add million new features to make it sound good on paper and then fail it like they did with Vista. In the end, the most important thing is stability. Windows 7 is great and I really hope W8 will take it even further.

HawaiiMacAddict
Apr 2, 2011, 12:02 PM
It looks like the only way M$ is "catching up" is by copying technologies with which we are already familiar. As Bertrand Serlet suggested, maybe M$ really DID start up their photocopiers :D

I saw a video on YouTube entitled "The Real Windows Vista (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QdGt3ix2CQ)", in which the audio from a (series of) M$ lecture(s) was combined with video showing a Mac user demonstrating the then-unreleased features of Vista on a Mac. It was originally in three parts, and at the end of each part the specific technologies mentioned were identified, as well as the year in which they were introduced. It appears also that, as Mr. Serlet also mentioned, "if you can't innovate, you must imitate, but it's never quite the same."

SandboxGeneral
Apr 2, 2011, 12:03 PM
There is no beta of Windows 8 yet so it is hard to say. MS can add million new features to make it sound good on paper and then fail it like they did with Vista. In the end, the most important thing is stability. Windows 7 is great and I really hope W8 will take it even further.

I agree. Stability is very important and it is what makes or breaks an OS. I hope Microsoft does really well in their next OS. Win7 is a winner in my book as I use and manage it at the office while OS X is the winner in my home. As long as MS & :apple: have decent OS's to compete against each other, the hopeful winners will be the users in that we get quality software to run.

ChaosAngel
Apr 2, 2011, 12:26 PM
Good points and for the me the Apple ecosystem is very important (something Microsoft doesn't have). However, looking purely at the operating system itself, I can always remember first showing my "Windows" friends OS X (even in the early days) and them being blown away by how amazing it was. These days I don't see that same excitement (really since Leopard) and the gap between OS X and Windows is now much closer.

I wonder if we will hit a point when the OS X guys/gals look at Windows in amazement? To far? :)

I just hope Lion brings more then what I am seeing in the Developer Builds. Don't get be wrong it's looking like a great OS, but is it the leap I was hoping for? Not yet...

clientsiman
Apr 2, 2011, 12:34 PM
It's too early to compare those two OS.

I like using both OS X and Windows. I am not impressed with Lion so far. (From what I have read, as I haven't try it). I hope Apple has same surprises to show in the WWDC.

I am really looking forward to see what Ubuntu can achieve till next year. I am not sure if I like the new Unite shell but I agree that Ubuntu needs to create something new and stop copying OS X and Windows.

Woodcrest64
Apr 6, 2011, 10:46 AM
I like both Windows 7 and OSX 10.6.7 right now.

What I don't like about Windows 7 is the registry.

and what I don't like about OSX is the UI is starting to look old and that there is no native AVCHD support.

I don't think MS is going to get rid of the registry in Windows 8 but I can hope that they do. I also don't think Apple will make a major UI change with their OS until OS 11 but I have been wrong before.

Apple could very well be holding out until its final preview to show off some radical new UI changes.

roadbloc
Apr 6, 2011, 06:09 PM
How can we compare a Dev Preview to something that doesn't even exist yet? :rolleyes:

superstrikertwo
Apr 6, 2011, 08:11 PM
How can we compare a Dev Preview to something that isn't even public yet? :rolleyes:

Fixed.

MattInOz
Apr 6, 2011, 08:38 PM
Product is designed to help people realize value.
I mean it's taken them this long to work that out.

MikhailT
Apr 6, 2011, 11:16 PM
Microsoft is doing the smart thing by basing W8 on W7 and refining with a smaller collection of new features/improvements instead of trying everything new like they did with Vista. They are not going overboard this time around and they're also pushing to do <3 year release cycle. I hope they do another smart thing by actually decreasing the price of their SKUs a bit while reducing the SKUs as well. W8 Home for 150$ and W8 Pro for 250$, remove the Ultimate SKU.

Windows 8 is rumored to have a new feature called History Vault that's similar to Time Machine, so it'd be interesting to see how it works out.

Please note that it's not fair to compare both right now. They both say things but it does not mean that those features will show up in the final build. W7 changed a lot from the first beta to the final release due to their massive beta test program. Microsoft is likely to repeat the same beta test project with W8 because of the massive success it bought to W7.

Evoken
Apr 6, 2011, 11:30 PM
Considering that we haven't had any substantial update since Leopard (as Snow Leopard was more an under the hood thing), which launched 4 years ago, the same year the original iPhone launched; the list of features that are being shown for Lion are downright underwhelming.

- The Mac App Store
This is not a part of the OS itself and I can use it right now. This is also hardly an innovation.

- Launchpad
This is just a slightly different take on the stacks concept, borrowing from the way it is handled in the iPad.

- Full-screen apps
Hmmm....ok...how is this a big deal again?

- Mission Control
Just a tweak on the present expose concept. I find it looks a bit cumbersome/clunky.

- Auto save
Hmmm....ok...how is this a big deal again?

- Versions
Hmmm....ok, useful.

- Resume
This one is good.

- Mail 5
Now with conversations, something Gmail has had for a long while already.

- AirDrop
Interesting but I think not all that different from using Bonjour to transfer files.

And...that's very much it...

Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of Apple as much as the next guy but this feature set is hardly impressive. I remember back when Apple released 10.4, I was actually excited about the new features and couldn't wait to update my computer. But now? I feel very much indifferent about Lion, don't see anything innovative or exciting at all, specially when one considers that the last update to include additional features as opposed to under the hood improvements (10.5) was released four years ago.

MikhailT
Apr 6, 2011, 11:47 PM
@Evoken, we haven't seen the full features list yet for Lion. That's going to be announced at WWDC.

The rest here isn't directed to you, just my opinion of what Lion is supposed to be.

If we consider Lion to be an improvement/refinements to Snow Leopard, it's already an impressive update, just like Snow Leopard was to Leopard. The slight changes in the UI are noticeable over Snow Leopard. The animations, the buttons, scrollbars gives Lion a refresh of the current interface.

The Mac App Store isn't a feature for Lion, it has nothing to do with Lion. It's just another Mac App that's bundled with Lion just like Mail/iChat.

Full Screen Mode is just an interface API which are useful for some people on the Airs and laptops. Some people only use one app for a few hours, and the full screen mode can be useful for them.

Auto-save is a big feature because it changes the way the applications save the files for you in the background. You no longer have to worry about saving in case of a crash and you can now just close/quit the app and return from the same state with auto-resume feature, basically the same way apps work in the background on the iOS platform. Imagine the ability to work on a big project in Numbers or Keynote and you just want to close it for now. Come back in an hour, open them again and you're back to where you started an hour ago. No open last file required. It's just a refinement of the "Close App, Open App, Open Last File Used" process.

Combine Auto-save, auto-resume and Versions, you have a new way of handling files in applications.

Everybody should set their expectations low for Lion, consider it a refinement of the front end for Leopard while Snow Leopard was a refinement of the backend.

Apple isn't about new stuff, they're about refining the same stuff in a different way. That's what they have done with iPhone, iPad and soon, Lion. iPhone wasn't the first device with a touchscreen, it was just refined by integrating both software and hardware in a way that it provide a much better interface. Innovations does not mean that it's for brand new ideas/products only, it can also mean an idea/product that's used in a different way.

benhollberg
Apr 6, 2011, 11:49 PM
Is Windows 8 then Windows 7.0, like Windows Seven is actually Windows 6.1?

I believe Windows 8 will actually be Windows 6.2.

MikhailT
Apr 6, 2011, 11:59 PM
I believe Windows 8 will actually be Windows 6.2.

Hmm, 6.1 = 6 + 1 = 7, 6.2 = 8.

baryon
Apr 7, 2011, 09:08 AM
If Windows 8 doesn't have something as simple as Spaces or multiple desktops, then it's an inferior OS.

thejadedmonkey
Apr 7, 2011, 09:18 AM
If Windows 8 doesn't have something as simple as Spaces or multiple desktops, then it's an inferior OS.

If someone can make such a broad statement, they are an inferior person

wrldwzrd89
Apr 7, 2011, 09:24 AM
Hello all! This is an interesting debate... I think both OSes will be powerhouses by the time they're released. However... Microsoft's upping the ante with Windows 8, it seems. Had I seen this thread, I would have posted this (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1132758) here, instead... oh well.

Dr McKay
Apr 7, 2011, 09:59 AM
Is Windows 8 then Windows 7.0, like Windows Seven is actually Windows 6.1?

Thats just the NT version. Windows 8 will be 6.2

7 was 6.1,
Vista was 6.0
XP was 5.0

Technically Windows 7 is the 10th version of Windows, if you don't count Windows Server.

Windows 7 is the 7th version if you count from Windows 95.

wrldwzrd89
Apr 7, 2011, 10:03 AM
Thats just the NT version. Windows 8 will be 6.2

7 was 6.1,
Vista was 6.0
XP was 5.0

Technically Windows 7 is the 10th version of Windows, if you don't count Windows Server.

Windows 7 is the 7th version if you count from Windows 95.
According to Wikipedia, Windows 8 will be NT version 6.2, not 7.0 - just in case you were wondering.

Dr McKay
Apr 7, 2011, 11:38 AM
According to Wikipedia, Windows 8 will be NT version 6.2, not 7.0 - just in case you were wondering.

Thats what I said.. I didnt say it would be NT 7.0

baryon
Apr 8, 2011, 03:36 AM
If someone can make such a broad statement, they are an inferior person

How do you know? Maybe Windows 8 will have multiple desktops. IE is also gaining all the features that all the other browsers have... Just a few years late, that's all!

maflynn
Apr 8, 2011, 09:43 AM
MS still playing catchup by the looks of the feature list in my opinion.
Actually its the other way around. Windows 7 has leap frogged apple in terms of functionality, UI and usability.

Apple needs to play catch up by adding some features to OSX.

maflynn
Apr 8, 2011, 09:48 AM
What I don't like about Windows 7 is the registry.
Realistically how often have you needed to go into regedit to alter the registry. At my company they restrict access to the registry and it has not impacted my users one bit.

I maintain about 30+ windows servers and while I have needed to go into the registry on occasion its a rarity. While I agree that the usage of the registry is a weak point for windows, its not as bad as some people make it out.

Apple has similar issues that need to be fixed from the terminal, like rebuilding the launchservices database.

tkermit
Apr 8, 2011, 10:19 AM
Actually its the other way around. Windows 7 has leap frogged apple in terms of functionality, UI and usability.

Actually, it depends on what you use your computer for, what your expectations are, and where your priorities lie.

maflynn
Apr 8, 2011, 11:11 AM
Actually, it depends on what you use your computer for, what your expectations are, and where your priorities lie.

You can say that about any consumer product.
Speaking in general terms, MS has added more to windows, improved performance and reduced the bloat with win7.

Apple has gone the opposite direction, adding bloat and no major feature since 10.5

roadbloc
Apr 8, 2011, 11:58 AM
You can say that about any consumer product.
Speaking in general terms, MS has added more to windows, improved performance and reduced the bloat with win7.

Apple has gone the opposite direction, adding bloat and no major feature since 10.5

+1. Hopefully Lion will be worth the added system requirements.

Anyways, he features I've heard that are to new to Windows 8 so far is:

Mount disc images natively.
Change the colour of the Aero glass to suit your desktop automatically.
Live integration.
PDF reader inbuilt.
Some thing where you can enclose programs into one package...

Dr McKay
Apr 8, 2011, 03:11 PM
+1. Hopefully Lion will be worth the added system requirements.

Anyways, he features I've heard that are to new to Windows 8 so far is:

Mount disc images natively.
Change the colour of the Aero glass to suit your desktop automatically.
Live integration.
PDF reader inbuilt.
Some thing where you can enclose programs into one package...


So far Ive seen
Smartscreen for File Checking (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-to-use-smartscreen-for-file-checking)
Auto Superbar Colourization (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-aero-auto-colourization)
Metro IE9 for Tablet Versions (http://www.neowin.net/news/ie-to-have-a-metro-feel-in-windows-8)
Built-in Metro Style PDF Reader (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-to-have-metro-style-pdf-reader)
Possible Office Ribbon interface for Windows Explorer (http://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-testing-ribbon-ui-in-windows-8)
New Style Lock-Screen (http://www.neowin.net/news/winodws-8-login-sceen-revealed)
Metro Tablet UI will be "Immersive" (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-tablet-metro-ui-will-be-immersive-images-surface)
Will Allow Software Acceleration (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-to-allow-software-acceleration-makes-aero-ubiquitous)
Metro Theme (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-metro-theme-new-wallpaper-and-other-elements-leak)
History Vault (Easy Interface on Backup and Shadow Copying) (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-to-feature-history-vault-time-machine-competitor)
System Reset (Restore to Factory Defaults in minutes) (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-039system-reset039-image-leaks)
Aero 'Lite' Theme (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-039aero-lite039-button-elements-revealed)
Better Language Support from the Box (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-language-explorer-screen-shot-leaks)
Updated Superbar (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-taskbar-update-leaks-out-in-another-image)
Windows Live ID Login (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-live-id-login-image-leaks-and-other-features-surface)
Multiple Desktops/Flip & Smart Sticky Notes (http://www.neowin.net/news/concept-images-reveal-possible-features-in-windows-8)
Possible WP7-Style Smart Tiles for Win8 Tablet (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-tablet-may-feature-live-tiles-similar-to-wp7)

Luph67
Apr 8, 2011, 05:00 PM
Possible Office Ribbon interface for Windows Explorer (http://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-testing-ribbon-ui-in-windows-8)


The ribbon is awful though. :(

JKK photography
Apr 8, 2011, 05:09 PM
You can say that about any consumer product.
Speaking in general terms, MS has added more to windows, improved performance and reduced the bloat with win7.

Apple has gone the opposite direction, adding bloat and no major feature since 10.5

So 10.6 is bloated?

I would say that Windows 7 has very few new features, compared to Windows Vista. It was a performance/stability upgrade.

I would say that Snow Leopard has very few new features, compared to Leopard. It was a performance/stability upgrade.

Now, one of last-gen OS' actually needed a big boost in the performance/stability department. One didn't.

I simply don't agree with you. Snow Leopard was a few GBs smaller than Leopard, and was faster... and yet you say it is bloated?

kuwisdelu
Apr 8, 2011, 05:41 PM
I'd say 10.6 had a ton of new features; they just weren't in the UI.

roadbloc
Apr 8, 2011, 05:57 PM
I'd say 10.6 had a ton of new features; they just weren't in the UI.
Care to elaborate? I didn't notice any apart from a few UI tweaks.

ChrisA
Apr 8, 2011, 06:17 PM
Realistically how often have you needed to go into regedit to alter the registry. At my company they restrict access to the registry and it has not impacted my users one bit...

That's not the point. the bad thing about Registry is that it even exits. What a dumb design to have a single file that multiple different applications can access. It tightly couple things that should be 100% independent. Every other OS works hard to avoid this problem. It should be the case that even an intensionally malicious program can effect the operation of another program. Windows works only because you work hard to keep intensionally malicious software off the computer. This effort should not be required

What I'd like to see in Lion is not only the cosmetic changes to the user interface that everyone talks about but a big change to say the security model to for example implement discretionary access controls in a way the both works and is easy for the user to understand. Something like that could even prevent most Trojan horses from doing damage. What about a cryptographic file system? Of a file system that looks more like an iPhoto or Aperture library than a tree? What about building the entire OS using a compiler that automatically parallelizes code at a fine scale? Lots of things could do. But maybe those are still 10 years away?

Joshuarocks
Apr 8, 2011, 08:27 PM
There is no beta of Windows 8 yet so it is hard to say. MS can add million new features to make it sound good on paper and then fail it like they did with Vista. In the end, the most important thing is stability. Windows 7 is great and I really hope W8 will take it even further.

I'd like to see Windows 8 use a Linux kernel underlying the GUI itself.. Microsoft could have some potential, but should not copy from Apple.

maflynn
Apr 9, 2011, 06:43 AM
I'd say 10.6 had a ton of new features; they just weren't in the UI.

So what are the ton of features that apple introduced in 10.6?

That's not the point. the bad thing about Registry is that it even exits. What a dumb design to have a single file that multiple different applications can access. It tightly couple things that should be 100% independent. Every other OS works hard to avoid this problem. It should be the case that even an intensionally malicious program can effect the operation of another program. Windows works only because you work hard to keep intensionally malicious software off the computer. This effort should not be required
I agree with that assessment. The single point of failure design was a major misstep by MS, that has hampered consumers and administrators for years. Things have gotten better and more stable, but you're right, the design is the problem.

Blakeasd
Apr 9, 2011, 08:44 AM
I think I know why OS X has had less great features then previous versions. Scott Forstall was a big designer for Leopard and helped create some of the major Lion features like Time Machine. After Leopard Forstall was moved to the IOS team. Perhaps Mac OS X needs Forstall back.

dethmaShine
Apr 9, 2011, 09:00 AM
So far Ive seen
Smartscreen for File Checking (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-to-use-smartscreen-for-file-checking)
Auto Superbar Colourization (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-aero-auto-colourization)
Metro IE9 for Tablet Versions (http://www.neowin.net/news/ie-to-have-a-metro-feel-in-windows-8)
Built-in Metro Style PDF Reader (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-to-have-metro-style-pdf-reader)
Possible Office Ribbon interface for Windows Explorer (http://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-testing-ribbon-ui-in-windows-8)
New Style Lock-Screen (http://www.neowin.net/news/winodws-8-login-sceen-revealed)
Metro Tablet UI will be "Immersive" (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-tablet-metro-ui-will-be-immersive-images-surface)
Will Allow Software Acceleration (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-to-allow-software-acceleration-makes-aero-ubiquitous)
Metro Theme (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-metro-theme-new-wallpaper-and-other-elements-leak)
History Vault (Easy Interface on Backup and Shadow Copying) (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-to-feature-history-vault-time-machine-competitor)
System Reset (Restore to Factory Defaults in minutes) (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-039system-reset039-image-leaks)
Aero 'Lite' Theme (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-039aero-lite039-button-elements-revealed)
Better Language Support from the Box (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-language-explorer-screen-shot-leaks)
Updated Superbar (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-taskbar-update-leaks-out-in-another-image)
Windows Live ID Login (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-live-id-login-image-leaks-and-other-features-surface)
Multiple Desktops/Flip & Smart Sticky Notes (http://www.neowin.net/news/concept-images-reveal-possible-features-in-windows-8)
Possible WP7-Style Smart Tiles for Win8 Tablet (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-tablet-may-feature-live-tiles-similar-to-wp7)

Still no features compared to Mac OS.

Also, those things that you mentioned looked hideous instead of that new lock screen which looks good.

Akme
Apr 9, 2011, 10:24 AM
Both companies are overly focused on shoehorning their mobile experiences into their desktop operating systems. Both Lion and Windows 8 will see some new features, however, I think (for the most part) they will be releases with a view to long-term unification between mobile and desktop, rather than being focused on an extensive list of features.

While some people are unhappy with some of the steps that Apple have taken in 10.7 toward this, and are judging the new feature list as being somewhat limited, I believe Microsoft will do much of the same for Windows 8.

Windows 7 is to Vista as Snow Leopard is to Leopard. As a result, I believe their next releases will follow a similar trajectory.

inket
Apr 9, 2011, 05:08 PM
-Apple is using iOS' popularity to promote Lion while Microsoft is doing the opposite.

-Lion has Arabic support. They're targeting the Middle East.

-Some Lion changes are welcome and long-awaited but I'm still not impressed. Jobs better be at that WWDC presenting some awesome stuff 2 months from now.

-Windows 8 will support ARM and tablets. => Getting farther away from good Software-Hardware integration.

-Windows 8 is getting a PDF reader... that's so 2005! I can even open .ppt (Microsoft's format) on a Mac without additional software.

-Windows 8 is catching up to Snow Leopard and maybe a bit more but nothing new to Mac users.

-Metro UI will look really bad on PCs.

kuwisdelu
Apr 9, 2011, 05:21 PM
So what are the ton of features that apple introduced in 10.6?

I guess it depends what you call a "feature." They're not user-facing, and Apple didn't advertise them as features, but frankly I don't see how they're not features, even if they're under-the-hood. Anyway, here (http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2009/08/mac-os-x-10-6.ars/)'s 22 pages worth of new and improved stuff.

ajiuo
Apr 9, 2011, 06:41 PM
One thing that bothers me about mac os is that iTunes and apple tv (both great products) are almost becoming a conflict of intrest..

It seems like mac os has been moving backwards in the multimedia department. QuickTime was hacked to death in snow leopard... Now they are getting rid of front row... And no one is even mentioning Blu-ray support.

I'll be honest front row doesn't surpize me... I was actualy expecting apple to make a software version of apple tv for mac... Something they can charge for... But no word.


Digital media may eventually kill blu-ray... But it isn't happening yet... Apple is not going to be able to move people away from optical media the way that they did with the floppy... If you stop putting floppy disk drives on macs... Mac users will have no use for the floppy disk.... But there are millions of Blu-ray and DVD players in use... It's not going away that easy... Building devices like the apple tv might help change the market... But holding out on standard features that windows users enjoy is not.

maflynn
Apr 9, 2011, 06:53 PM
I guess it depends what you call a "feature." They're not user-facing, and Apple didn't advertise them as features, but frankly I don't see how they're not features, even if they're under-the-hood. Anyway, here (http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2009/08/mac-os-x-10-6.ars/)'s 22 pages worth of new and improved stuff.

I know they made lots of under the hood stuff, but nothing that entices the consumer to upgrade. Look at 10.5 and that had lots of stuff for the consumer.

Now with the all the under the hood stuff that was changed, many of us were expecting more then just the "magic of the iPad" as they call it.

kuwisdelu
Apr 9, 2011, 11:49 PM
I know they made lots of under the hood stuff, but nothing that entices the consumer to upgrade. Look at 10.5 and that had lots of stuff for the consumer.

I don't really care whether it enticed other consumers to upgrade. I thought they were pretty exciting new features. Yeah, there were no consumer-oriented features, but you didn't say "consumer features," just "features." :)

maclaptop
Apr 10, 2011, 12:00 AM
I believe Windows 8 will actually be Windows 6.2.
As an Apple user, I'm thrilled that I'm not afflicted with the need to put down Windows in order to boost my ego.

maflynn
Apr 10, 2011, 06:46 AM
As an Apple user, I'm thrilled that I'm not afflicted with the need to put down Windows in order to boost my ego.

That's the difference between an apple user and apple fanboy ;)

I use the tool that best suits my needs, up till now its been apple hardware and apple software for me but that doesn't mean it will be the case in the future.

The cost of apple computers is such that I need to be sure it actually solves a need before I plunk down a lot $$ on it, just so I can show off that cool apple logo on the back

wrldwzrd89
Apr 10, 2011, 08:28 AM
Believe it or not, neither Mac OS X nor Windows suits my needs best right now - hence why I've migrated to something altogether different: Ubuntu Linux.

That said, I will continue to use Mac OS X and Windows for development/testing purposes, so I am very much looking forward to both Lion and Windows 8.

JKK photography
Apr 10, 2011, 11:06 AM
Lion will contain Mac OS X Server. So there, there's your new features.


As an Apple user, I'm thrilled that I'm not afflicted with the need to put down Windows in order to boost my ego.

He's not putting down Windows. He's simply talking about the Windows NT version, which (for Windows 7) is currently 6.1. It is unknown as to whether or not MS will go to 6.2, or maybe to 7.0.

So, when you insult someone, have your facts straight. A simple Google search usually suffices.

Mr. Retrofire
Apr 11, 2011, 06:24 AM
-Lion has Arabic support. They're targeting the Middle East.

Even Mac OS 8.1 had arabic support. That was 1998.

dethmaShine
Apr 11, 2011, 08:01 AM
Actually its the other way around. Windows 7 has leap frogged apple in terms of functionality, UI and usability.

Apple needs to play catch up by adding some features to OSX.

What are those features?

What is that 'UI'?

What kind of usability?

roadbloc
Apr 11, 2011, 08:07 AM
What are those features?

What is that 'UI'?

What kind of usability?
Aero Snap. The new superbar. Expandable start menu. The Office ribbon. Stable as a rock OS. Just to name a few.

I agree with Maflynn. Where as Vista was rather dire, Windows 7 beats Snow Leopard. Only by a fraction, which is why I'm still happy using Snow Leopard, but it is still better. Windows has matured considerably, whereas OS X still feels a little juvenile like XP does.

dethmaShine
Apr 11, 2011, 08:27 AM
Aero Snap. The new superbar. Expandable start menu. The Office ribbon. Stable as a rock OS. Just to name a few.

I agree with Maflynn. Where as Vista was rather dire, Windows 7 beats Snow Leopard. Only by a fraction, which is why I'm still happy using Snow Leopard, but it is still better. Windows has matured considerably, whereas OS X still feels a little juvenile like XP does.

Really Aero Snap? A feature?
Superbar is good but the dock provides a similar capability but through expose. No big deal here. Use hyperdock if you need the same experience.
So office ribbon is a nice UI element? Well, would have guessed withyour post history. The ribbons look awful, complicate user interface and experience; they are just a bad idea.
Stable as a rock. Yaa I know.

Still no features, usability to tout here.

OS X already came with a ton of features in the first place. Tiger was such a great OS release who's features are yet to be found in Windows 8.
Leopard packed some of the great features and become one of the most advanced OS's.

Maybe in your opinion windows 7 is better than SL, but I don't think so. XP->Vista->W7 has definitely been on the upside but in terms of features and usability, its a big nono.

Thanks for the reply anyway.

maflynn
Apr 11, 2011, 08:29 AM
Also Aero Peek,
control-tab and windows (command key?)-tab offer some cool ways to swap around active applications.

MS has done a lot of good work with the UI, in terms of polish and making it look very nice. Apple on the other hand still lacks a complete consistent look and feel. Just look at iTunes and the horizontal traffic lights.

Apple has a long history of implementing UI guidlines and then breaking them in their own apps. OSX itself exhibits this, though with SL, its gotten better.

dethmaShine
Apr 11, 2011, 08:48 AM
Also Aero Peek,
control-tab and windows (command key?)-tab offer some cool ways to swap around active applications.


Aero Peek is cool.


MS has done a lot of good work with the UI, in terms of polish and making it look very nice. Apple on the other hand still lacks a complete consistent look and feel. Just look at iTunes and the horizontal traffic lights.


I don't understand. Microsoft has a more consistent UI than Mac OS X? What are you smoking mate? For everything Windows is better, so why do you use SL?
As for iTunes, it has got more UI changes than probably any other software on the planet. iTunes is one software that's tweaked and changed and basically used as a reference point. With every single version you see a tweaked UI. That's intentional and not by mistake.

As for consistent look of the Mac OS, consistent doesn't mean it has to be the same. With respect to FaceTime, the window is all black. That means it is inconsistent, right? No its not.

The sense of operation and understanding still remains the same; which points to consistency and usability.


Apple has a long history of implementing UI guidlines and then breaking them in their own apps. OSX itself exhibits this, though with SL, its gotten better.

As if UI guidelines are a hard and fast rule?
Apple has always been tweaking certain applications to test other UI's. Even I was corrected the other day when I pointed out that UI guidelines are dead. They are not dead; they are evolving. Take it as a constitution which is amended when required and from time to time.

The UI guidelines document are not hard and fast rules which cannot be edited or ignored. Twitter and other apps which out rightly ignore the guidelines were accepted, proving that Apple accepts consistency in understanding and operation rather than in visual appearance.

Renverse
Apr 11, 2011, 03:19 PM
As an Apple user, I'm thrilled that I'm not afflicted with the need to put down Windows in order to boost my ego.

I never quite understood what made people do this. I'm buying my first Mac, some of my friends already have one, and I told them I was going to dual-boot Windows 7.

Their reaction? Fanboy outcries. Invalid arguments about Windows, and how it's "trash", while I'm absolutely sure that they haven't touched Windows since XP, or Vista. I can't stand people like that.

MyDesktopBroke
Apr 11, 2011, 03:59 PM
Anyone who says that is taking the mickey. As a mac user of over a decade I can say I'm quite happy that I can run Windows 7 on my mac.

People on both sides of the OS war (or the console war, or Pepsi/Coke war, or the Marvel/DC war, etc.) are either trolls or severely lacking in the "life" department.

kuwisdelu
Apr 11, 2011, 05:04 PM
Not a Windows thing, but after seeing GNOME 3, I thought it would be kind of nice to have a second dock showing all my spaces, especially since Spaces is becoming purely linear.

dethmaShine
Apr 11, 2011, 06:53 PM
Anyone who says that is taking the mickey. As a mac user of over a decade I can say I'm quite happy that I can run Windows 7 on my mac.

People on both sides of the OS war (or the console war, or Pepsi/Coke war, or the Marvel/DC war, etc.) are either trolls or severely lacking in the "life" department.

+1 I'd say.

Use winXP everyday; more than my mac.
Use win7 for beta-testing apps in the office.

Great OS's; I just wish MS do something in the usability department. Or may be I'm using it wrong.

ErikGrim
Apr 11, 2011, 09:29 PM
Actually its the other way around. Windows 7 has leap frogged apple in terms of functionality, UI and usability.

Apple needs to play catch up by adding some features to OSX.:o

Working with both Windows and Mac OS X every day for the last two decades you have no idea how utterly wrong this statement is.

GoKyu
Apr 11, 2011, 10:32 PM
I'd like to see Windows 8 use a Linux kernel underlying the GUI itself.. Microsoft could have some potential, but should not copy from Apple.

+1

I've been telling this to people for awhile now...if Microsoft *truly* wants a killer OS, then they're gonna have to do what Apple did a decade ago -

Leave the cruft, even if it breaks stuff for awhile, get RID of the registry (this was a good idea...coming from DOS, and being used in Windows 95), use a Linux or UNIX kernel as the base OS, and make applications self-contained, like Apple's are.

It may be copying, but they've copied everything ELSE, why not copy something that *might* have a shot at making the apps easier to install, and viruses harder to get in?

Besides, the apps were *almost* self-contained back in Windows 3.1 - anyone remember .ini files? If MS had let people keep those, there never would've been much use for a registry to begin with.

dethmaShine
Apr 12, 2011, 02:42 AM
+1

I've been telling this to people for awhile now...if Microsoft *truly* wants a killer OS, then they're gonna have to do what Apple did a decade ago -

Leave the cruft, even if it breaks stuff for awhile, get RID of the registry (this was a good idea...coming from DOS, and being used in Windows 95), use a Linux or UNIX kernel as the base OS, and make applications self-contained, like Apple's are.

It may be copying, but they've copied everything ELSE, why not copy something that *might* have a shot at making the apps easier to install, and viruses harder to get in?

Besides, the apps were *almost* self-contained back in Windows 3.1 - anyone remember .ini files? If MS had let people keep those, there never would've been much use for a registry to begin with.

Do you really think MS will ever do that?

8CoreWhore
Apr 12, 2011, 03:43 AM
There is the objective and the subjective. Objectively, one might say - hey, W8 is stable, and functional, etc...

Subjectively, people like what they like...

smugDrew
Apr 12, 2011, 03:48 AM
Windows 8?!! :rolleyes: it's not even at Beta stage. More useless transparencies and now with extra fat Ribbon UI boobery. How exciting.

OS X Lion - if you're a Dev you shouldn't be talking about it...

nick9191
Apr 12, 2011, 04:28 AM
Actually its the other way around. Windows 7 has leap frogged apple in terms of functionality, UI and usability.

Apple needs to play catch up by adding some features to OSX.
Functionality? You can't do absolutely anything with Windows out of the box without downloading extra software.

What can you do with your newly bought Windows PC?
Scan for viruses with a 30 day trial of Norton.
Notepad, Paint.

What can you do with your newly bought Mac?
iPhoto, iMovie, Garageband, iDVD, iWeb.

Even disregarding a new computer and just looking at a new OS (as iLife only comes with a Mac). You can't do mundane tasks like viewing a PDF (yes, coming in Windows 8, OS X had it since 2000). You can't have virtual desktops. Hell I remember Vista Home Basic and Business wouldn't even play a DVD without downloading extra stuff (not sure what the situation is with 7 there). Quick look, Stacks, Expose.

The only thing I can think of for Windows as far as functionality goes is the new Taskbar, shaking a window to minimise others and dragging two windows to each side of the screen to see them in unison.

maflynn
Apr 12, 2011, 05:53 AM
Functionality? You can't do absolutely anything with Windows out of the box without downloading extra software.

What can you do with your newly bought Windows PC?
Scan for viruses with a 30 day trial of Norton.
Notepad, Paint.

What can you do with your newly bought Mac?
iPhoto, iMovie, Garageband, iDVD, iWeb.

That's not entirely true. When you buy a new mac you get iLife, with a new PC, you get office, windows live suite (ilife competitor), other apps including anti-virus. So you can't say that "ou can't do absolutely anything with Windows out of the box without downloading extra software."

You get the same or similar level of functionality when buying a new computer. Apple gives you iLife, PCs you get office, and other stuff.

JKK photography
Apr 12, 2011, 06:48 AM
That's not entirely true. When you buy a new mac you get iLife, with a new PC, you get office, windows live suite (ilife competitor), other apps including anti-virus. So you can't say that "ou can't do absolutely anything with Windows out of the box without downloading extra software."

You get the same or similar level of functionality when buying a new computer. Apple gives you iLife, PCs you get office, and other stuff.

You get trials. Not actual copies, unless you pay for the license.

There is a big difference there.

maflynn
Apr 12, 2011, 06:58 AM
You get trials. Not actual copies, unless you pay for the license.

There is a big difference there.

For the anti-virus, yes, for office no you get the complete version, as well as MS live.

Depending on where you buy, you actually can get more "full" versions of applications then you do with a mac. I'm not knocking apple or iLife, they're great apps, but you cannot say that a new PC is unusable until you download a lot of apps and such. Dell, HP, etc all come with office and/or other apps. Yeah there's crapware installed and I won't dispute that, but you also get full version apps

dethmaShine
Apr 12, 2011, 07:06 AM
For the anti-virus, yes, for office no you get the complete version, as well as MS live.

Depending on where you buy, you actually can get more "full" versions of applications then you do with a mac. I'm not knocking apple or iLife, they're great apps, but you cannot say that a new PC is unusable until you download a lot of apps and such. Dell, HP, etc all come with office and/or other apps. Yeah there's crapware installed and I won't dispute that, but you also get full version apps

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/products/features

I don't think so. Really office for free?

dethmaShine
Apr 12, 2011, 07:11 AM
For the anti-virus, yes, for office no you get the complete version, as well as MS live.

Depending on where you buy, you actually can get more "full" versions of applications then you do with a mac. I'm not knocking apple or iLife, they're great apps, but you cannot say that a new PC is unusable until you download a lot of apps and such. Dell, HP, etc all come with office and/or other apps. Yeah there's crapware installed and I won't dispute that, but you also get full version apps

I want to compile my PERL app and run a full fledged SLTK software that I have coded for Si-Testchip verficiation.

All I need to do is copy/paste my software and it runs.

Can it on windows? NO.

You seem to be in a different world when you claim that windows PC's have the same 'it just works' attitude. No they do not.

From drivers to miniature downloads, you need a lot.

I have used assembled computers, factory pre-loaded PC's and other laptops.
Right now, I have a w7 laptop from tell which my company got for more than a 1000 pounds -> It just doesn't work. There's too much to fix, too much to find, too much to suffer. Should I fix my computer OR should I worry about my testchip releases?

You are missing some very important points and you act as if you are unaware of the complexities one has to deal with windows PCs.

maflynn
Apr 12, 2011, 07:17 AM
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/products/features

I don't think so. Really office for free?

The price of office is built into the price of the computer, just as the price of iLife is built into the price of a mac - standard accounting practice. You're really not getting iLife for free just like you're not getting office for free.

GoKyu
Apr 12, 2011, 07:24 AM
Do you really think MS will ever do that?

As stupid as they are, probably not. They're happy with having the most market share, why should they bother changing anything?

But, when it's as easy to get a virus as downloading a banner ad from a website that you visit ( sometimes even legitimate ones) using IE with ActiveX enabled, then *maybe* a stronger security model is called for.

These days, if you're running Windows and don't have at least a good antivirus, antispyware and (can't hurt) firewall, you're almost assured of getting infected somehow. I see it all the time at work - we have people coming in paying hundreds to have us remove viruses and to install a new antivirus program, because they didn't know the old one expired.

If Microsoft was smart, they'd even *consider* doing this - I hate to say it, but look at Mac users - even though we're not immune to potential viruses in the future, how long has OS X been around, and how much malware is out there to infect it? Maybe 5-10 programs? UNIX just has that stronger security model...

balamw
Apr 12, 2011, 07:46 AM
Also Aero Peek,
control-tab and windows (command key?)-tab offer some cool ways to swap around active applications.

Aero Peek is definitely one of my favorite features in W7. However I still find Exposé/Spaces to suit my workflow better. I think Aero Snap though, is only a feature because of many apps and users desire to run full screen all the time.

The price of office is built into the price of the computer, just as the price of iLife is built into the price of a mac - standard accounting practice. You're really not getting iLife for free just like you're not getting office for free.

Picking a random PC from Best Buy (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Lenovo+-+Laptop+/+Intel%26%23174%3B+Pentium%26%23174%3B+Processor+/+15.6%22+Display+/+2GB+Memory+/+320GB+Hard+Drive+-+Black/1954496.p?id=1218303031767&skuId=1954496). I see:

Software package included
With Microsoft Office Starter 2010 (product key card required for activation; sold separately).

I think it's hard to compare that to iLife. (I realize Office Starter 2010 can do some limited stuff, but it's designed to upsell you on one of the other packages.)

B

nick9191
Apr 12, 2011, 07:51 AM
The price of office is built into the price of the computer, just as the price of iLife is built into the price of a mac - standard accounting practice. You're really not getting iLife for free just like you're not getting office for free.
Maybe some computers come with Office as a promotional deal, and if they do, that's up to the OEM, not Microsoft. Nonetheless, I've not seen any PC come with more than a 30 day trial of Office.

balamw
Apr 12, 2011, 07:56 AM
Maybe some computers come with Office as a promotional deal, and if they do, that's up to the OEM, not Microsoft. Nonetheless, I've not seen any PC come with more than a 30 day trial of Office.

See my edit above. With 2010 Office Starter 2010 is an option for the OEM. It replaces Works and the Word viewer and gives a better upgrade path to "real" Office.

http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/products/office/pages/office_2010_starter.aspx

Office Starter 2010 is not a trial–it has a perpetual license that does not expire. Office Starter 2010 is an advertising-supported base productivity suite that is available only on new PCs. It must be preloaded on new PCs at the point of manufacture. Office Starter 2010 is not available for existing PCs at any time after manufacture; for example, Office Starter 2010 cannot be installed on new PCs being sold by resellers, even brand-new PCs. It will not be sold through distribution or available to end users as a standalone product.

B

GoKyu
Apr 12, 2011, 08:00 AM
The price of office is built into the price of the computer, just as the price of iLife is built into the price of a mac - standard accounting practice. You're really not getting iLife for free just like you're not getting office for free.

I think the last version of Office that actually shipped "free" (full version) with PCs was Office 2003. Unless a third party like Dell allows you to purchase it when you're ordering a custom machine, you don't get Office for free anymore.

Retail purchasing (which is how a LOT of people buy computers) for Office 2010 is: You now get what's called "Office 2010 Starter (http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/products/office/pages/office_2010_starter.aspx)" - Word & Excel. Both are no longer time-limited, BUT are now feature-limited and ad-supported (ads rotate every 45 seconds.) You no longer get Powerpoint at all, and of course they aren't gonna give you Outlook for free (that's what makes you upgrade from "Home & Student" to "Home & Business" or "Professional".)

The image below is directly out of Microsoft's retail training, where they tell you explicitly that Office does NOT come pre-loaded (but customers assume it does.)

maflynn
Apr 12, 2011, 08:25 AM
Retail purchasing (which is how a LOT of people buy computers) for Office 2010 is: You now get what's called "Office 2010 Starter (http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/products/office/pages/office_2010_starter.aspx)" - Word & Excel. Both are no longer time-limited, BUT are now feature-limited and ad-supported (ads rotate every 45 seconds.) You no longer get Powerpoint at all, and of course they aren't gonna give you Outlook for free (that's what makes you upgrade from "Home & Student" to "Home & Business" or "Professional".)

The image below is directly out of Microsoft's retail training, where they tell you explicitly that Office does NOT come pre-loaded (but customers assume it does.)

So office starter has ads in it - ewww :eek:. I didn't know that. I'll be sure to avoid that edition if I'm in need of MS office running in windows.

balamw
Apr 12, 2011, 08:41 AM
So office starter has ads in it - ewww :eek:. I didn't know that. I'll be sure to avoid that edition if I'm in need of MS office running in windows.

It's certainly possible that the next version of iLife that will ship with Lion-based Macs will be ad supported and provide a link to MAS to get rid of the ads, but we aren't there yet. ;)

B

xUKHCx
Apr 12, 2011, 08:43 AM
Maybe some computers come with Office as a promotional deal, and if they do, that's up to the OEM, not Microsoft. Nonetheless, I've not seen any PC come with more than a 30 day trial of Office.

Maybe it is a regional thing. I have recently bought 3 windows based machines here in the UK and they all came with trial versions of Office.

dethmaShine
Apr 12, 2011, 08:45 AM
It's certainly possible that the next version of iLife that will ship with Lion-based Macs will be ad supported and provide a link to MAS to get rid of the ads, but we aren't there yet. ;)

B

Not possible.

But yes, we aren't there yet. :P

roadbloc
Apr 12, 2011, 08:58 AM
It's certainly possible that the next version of iLife that will ship with Lion-based Macs will be ad supported and provide a link to MAS to get rid of the ads, but we aren't there yet. ;)

B

I hope that never happens. Ad support apps on mobiles is fine. PCs, I think, is going too far.

balamw
Apr 12, 2011, 09:02 AM
PCs, I think, is going too far.
Microsoft, apparently, begs to differ.

B

thejadedmonkey
Apr 12, 2011, 09:05 AM
Agreed. I feel like Wordpad, with the ability to open .doc and .docx files, would suffice.

And have Graphpad, a basic spreadsheet app, with the ability to open .xls and .xlsx for excel. :)

roadbloc
Apr 12, 2011, 09:09 AM
Agreed. I feel like Wordpad, with the ability to open .doc and .docx files, would suffice.

And have Graphpad, a basic spreadsheet app, with the ability to open .xls and .xlsx for excel. :)

And Slideshow, a basic presentation app, with the ability to open .ppt and .pptx for PowerPoint. :)

Oh... hang on. That sounds awfully familiar. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Works)

maflynn
Apr 12, 2011, 09:10 AM
Agreed. I feel like Wordpad, with the ability to open .doc and .docx files, would suffice.

And have Graphpad, a basic spreadsheet app, with the ability to open .xls and .xlsx for excel. :)

For my work I need word and office, so replacements are not feasible. We use custom plug-ins that obviously will only work in an office app and nothing else.

I'm a little behind the curve as I'm running MS office 2007 on my windows partition and I've had little need to upgrade to 2010. That's why I'm a little out of the loop regarding ads in office.

dethmaShine
Apr 12, 2011, 09:12 AM
For my work I need word and office, so replacements are not feasible. We use custom plug-ins that obviously will only work in an office app and nothing else.

I'm a little behind the curve as I'm running MS office 2007 on my windows partition and I've had little need to upgrade to 2010. That's why I'm a little out of the loop regarding ads in office.

Fair enough.

No body is going to scold you for misinformation. :cool:

We all make mistakes, you see? :D

balamw
Apr 12, 2011, 09:18 AM
Oh... hang on. That sounds awfully familiar. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Works)

They killed Works for Office Starter precisely for this reason. You get basic, ad-supported, functionality with the PC but are actively encouraged to "activate" to a real version of Office. This incentive wasn't there with Works as a separate suite.

EDIT: Apple may be king of the upsell on the hardware front, but Micorosoft is great at in in software.

B

BWhaler
Apr 12, 2011, 11:56 AM
Some people will never understand the power of Apple and the fundamental insight that makes Apple's products so powerful.

It's not a feature list. It's not a slick vaneer.

It's a deep understanding of design. How to make a product work naturally that empowers us to achieve what we want with the tool.

It's rarely more. It's rarely new pretty pictures.

Great art is knowing when to stop.

Cromulent
Apr 12, 2011, 05:25 PM
Apple needs to play catch up by adding some features to OSX.

What particular features is Mac OS X missing that Windows 7 has?

kuwisdelu
Apr 12, 2011, 05:43 PM
Neither iLife nor Office are part of the OS, so why are we comparing them anyway?

maflynn
Apr 12, 2011, 06:04 PM
What particular features is Mac OS X missing that Windows 7 has?

The Windows task bar is now by far much better with the addition of aero peek
Networking, its easier, faster and generally better then dealing with OSX

In general though I think apple needs to add features to catch up because MS has caught up and surpassed apple with windows 7.

I guess the bottom line for me is this: I see Microsoft working hard and adding features, to improve the OS. I see apple working hard at making OSX act more like an iPad. I also think given that they really didn't provide the consumer features in 10.6 that they should have done that in 10.7. Its not like they didn't have time, given that SL was released in 2009

kuwisdelu
Apr 12, 2011, 06:07 PM
All the Windows 7 I use are campus installs, so since they're not configurable, I haven't really looked around the settings. Does Windows have virtual desktops yet?

dethmaShine
Apr 12, 2011, 06:16 PM
The Windows task bar is now by far much better with the addition of aero peek
Networking, its easier, faster and generally better then dealing with OSX


To some extent yes, but with expose in SL, Apple already implements the best of the dock features. But yes, hyperdock would be cool.


In general though I think apple needs to add features to catch up because MS has caught up and surpassed apple with windows 7.


Surpassed how? What are those features?


I guess the bottom line for me is this: I see Microsoft working hard and adding features, to improve the OS. I see apple working hard at making OSX act more like an iPad. I also think given that they really didn't provide the consumer features in 10.6 that they should have done that in 10.7. Its not like they didn't have time, given that SL was released in 2009

That's just your misconception. There's no harm in making it iPad like if it becomes better. If you think your status will go down because you're using a product that's a bit derived from a so called toy, then its up to you.

You really don't know what you are talking about.

roadbloc
Apr 12, 2011, 06:23 PM
All the Windows 7 I use are campus installs, so since they're not configurable, I haven't really looked around the settings. Does Windows have virtual desktops yet?

No. Its coming in Windows 8.

iWonderwhy
Apr 12, 2011, 06:36 PM
Nice to see everything is civil around here. As soon as I read the title I thought this would become a troll thread lol.

GoKyu
Apr 12, 2011, 11:09 PM
The Windows task bar is now by far much better with the addition of aero peek
Networking, its easier, faster and generally better then dealing with OSX.

I have to say that Networking has definitely improved from XP to Win 7, but when I switched over to OS X, one of the first things I noticed was how much *easier* and *simple* networking was on the Mac side.

And if simple isn't for you, you can always dig down and go into Terminal to *manually* set up your network. I've done that with Linux in the past, and believe me, Mac *AND* Windows are simpler than manually configuring eth0 ;)

Aero Peek looked pretty cool, but I just don't use that feature at all - I like having a quick launch bar to run most of my software in Windows (probably why I took to the Dock so quickly in OS X.)

dethmaShine
Apr 13, 2011, 05:06 AM
As stupid as they are, probably not. They're happy with having the most market share, why should they bother changing anything?


That's understandable.


But, when it's as easy to get a virus as downloading a banner ad from a website that you visit ( sometimes even legitimate ones) using IE with ActiveX enabled, then *maybe* a stronger security model is called for.

These days, if you're running Windows and don't have at least a good antivirus, antispyware and (can't hurt) firewall, you're almost assured of getting infected somehow. I see it all the time at work - we have people coming in paying hundreds to have us remove viruses and to install a new antivirus program, because they didn't know the old one expired.



MS has done a lot in the security department; much more than Apple has ever done in the last years. But yes, Windows needed it; Mac OS didn't.

The extent to which viruses appear on windows has decreased but yeah, there are still a lot of viruses and one can easily be caught up in that situation.


If Microsoft was smart, they'd even *consider* doing this - I hate to say it, but look at Mac users - even though we're not immune to potential viruses in the future, how long has OS X been around, and how much malware is out there to infect it? Maybe 5-10 programs? UNIX just has that stronger security model...

I don't think its about malware/viruses.

Mac OS X provides all the features one needs (as a pro and as a consumer - not all though). UNIX is one of the biggest advantages of Mac OS X. Back in the day, the nerd crowd went apple mainly because of Mac OS X's UNIX capabilities. The times have changed though. But I think if Windows 8 comes out as a UNIX compliant, its going to be tough for Apple to reside in the pro-nerd market.

That doesn't mean apple is going to lose marketshare. But that kind of competition is going to be a major setback to apple in reference to how 'expensive' the mac machines are.

That said, and again, times have changed. Apple charges for the complete ecosystem rather than machine by machine OR software by software costs.

I wish windows goes UNIX to attain dead heat with Mac OS X.
I'll be the first one to jump and get a windows laptop (won't leave my macintosh though, ever ;)).

roadbloc
Apr 13, 2011, 05:48 AM
I wish windows goes UNIX

There is more chance of you waking up on the moon tomorrow morning than happening. Hell would freeze over and they'd still be a reason why it isn't happening.

Unix has it's flaws too. I certainly think that NT is reaching a certain maturity to be considered just-as-good as Unix.

maflynn
Apr 13, 2011, 05:53 AM
I have to say that Networking has definitely improved from XP to Win 7, but when I switched over to OS X, one of the first things I noticed was how much *easier* and *simple* networking was on the Mac side.
My experience has been the exact opposite with the Mac, whether its trying to access a share on one of my other computers (my wife uses a PC) or accessing network resources on my work's network.

When in windows 7 it "just worked" I had no need to mess with eth0, drivers or any manually set up a network. I was able to connect to the resource and use it. Also it was much faster.

I had issues with OSX, that I was unable to access any shared files from my wife's computer. Accessing my work stuff was a bit easier but was SLOW, painfully slow. I pull up a folder with a couple hundred files, and I can easily sit there for well over 10 minutes while OSX does it thing. Windows, just a couple of minutes.

Networking is where windows has a clear advantage of OSX, in part because many (most?) enterprise networks are windows based, at least from my experience.


I wish windows goes UNIX to attain dead heat with Mac OS X.
I'll be the first one to jump and get a windows laptop (won't leave my macintosh though, ever ;)).
Given the design of windows, there's zero chance of that, it would require a complete rewrite and the folks at MS really don't see the design of windows being flawed. Especially since they see the marketshare being what it is - kind of like why fix it if it isn't broke mentality.

dethmaShine
Apr 13, 2011, 06:13 AM
My experience has been the exact opposite with the Mac, whether its trying to access a share on one of my other computers (my wife uses a PC) or accessing network resources on my work's network.

When in windows 7 it "just worked" I had no need to mess with eth0, drivers or any manually set up a network. I was able to connect to the resource and use it. Also it was much faster.


It has always been the same with the mac. Just go to the finder and look for shared computers.
OR
Taskbar: 'Go To Server/Computer'
OR
ssh/ftp > prostuff-not required


I had issues with OSX, that I was unable to access any shared files from my wife's computer. Accessing my work stuff was a bit easier but was SLOW, painfully slow. I pull up a folder with a couple hundred files, and I can easily sit there for well over 10 minutes while OSX does it thing. Windows, just a couple of minutes.


Report bugs. Are you comparing b/w OSX <-> Windows and Windows <-> Windows?


Networking is where windows has a clear advantage of OSX, in part because many (most?) enterprise networks are windows based, at least from my experience.


You are confusing stuff.


Given the design of windows, there's zero chance of that, it would require a complete rewrite and the folks at MS really don't see the design of windows being flawed. Especially since they see the marketshare being what it is - kind of like why fix it if it isn't broke mentality.

Fair enough.

maflynn
Apr 13, 2011, 06:24 AM
It has always been the same with the mac. Just go to the finder and look for shared computers.
OR
Taskbar: 'Go To Server/Computer'
OR
ssh/ftp > prostuff-not required

I know and either the OSX is able to connect to the windows PC or gives me errors when I try to access the folder. doing this in windows works fine. I used to use Thursby DAVE for my networking needs in OSX before apple started to provide a more robust (though problematic) set of networking tools. When I used that app, I had little problems having OSX access window's files.


Report bugs. Are you comparing b/w OSX <-> Windows and Windows <-> Windows?
I am comparing OSX to Windows vs. Windows to Windows because 99% of my networking needs is accessing files on a windows machine, whether its on a home pc, or an enterprise server, or workstation. I'm not sure what bugs I could report to apple, other then stating its slow.


You are confusing stuff.
I don't think so, perhaps my post was not worded as clearly as it could have been. My point was that networking with windows to windows is easier and windows has an advantage there. given that the companies I've dealt with, they're mostly a windows shop. My point there then is using windows to access the resources is easier, faster and has less headaches.

dethmaShine
Apr 13, 2011, 07:05 AM
I know and either the OSX is able to connect to the windows PC or gives me errors when I try to access the folder. doing this in windows works fine. I used to use Thursby DAVE for my networking needs in OSX before apple started to provide a more robust (though problematic) set of networking tools. When I used that app, I had little problems having OSX access window's files.


I am comparing OSX to Windows vs. Windows to Windows because 99% of my networking needs is accessing files on a windows machine, whether its on a home pc, or an enterprise server, or workstation. I'm not sure what bugs I could report to apple, other then stating its slow.



I don't think so, perhaps my post was not worded as clearly as it could have been. My point was that networking with windows to windows is easier and windows has an advantage there. given that the companies I've dealt with, they're mostly a windows shop. My point there then is using windows to access the resources is easier, faster and has less headaches.

The only reason I'd asked for OSX<->Windows vs Windows<->Windows was that the problem could lie in Windows as well.

But in my experience, I haven't had any issues. Maybe you should've gone asked the Apple Support Forums about it. Not very sure if you would have gotten a straight answer, though.

I would say that networking is easier but I myself have seen issues with consistency in connecting to shared servers.

But this had gotten much much better with 10.6.2/3. Leopard always had bugs with accessing files/folders with windows as well as macintosh computers.

inket
Apr 13, 2011, 02:54 PM
Seriously ? You are comparing Windows' networking to that of OS X ? Huge difference.

How many menus do you have to go through to share a folder ? Change an IP address ? Change networks order ?

Can you even change interfaces (or "service") order ? I like my Mac to use Ethernet for Internet when I'm connected to both Ethernet and Wifi. Can Windows do that ?

Can you set up "Locations" ? No, not that stupid "Home, Work, Public" wannabe-secure popup-everytime BS.

Not even going to talk about system-wide proxies. Those that Windows apps ignore all the time.

Windows PCs with enabled File Sharing (or whatever they call it, that new confusing Homegroup with a code or password or something) show up in Finder's sidebar. "It just works".

As for low transfer speeds, that could've been Windows' fault. I had the same; couldn't copy files to a friend's laptop at higher rates than 250KB/s and restarting Windows fixed it.

thejadedmonkey
Apr 13, 2011, 03:00 PM
Windows PCs with enabled File Sharing (or whatever they call it, that new confusing Homegroup with a code or password or something) show up in Finder's sidebar. "It just works".

Oh how I wish it were so. For the last year or so, I haven't had ANY windows PC show up in my finder's sidebar, except my girlfriend's Dell (go figure) which has 0 shared folders, and my desktop... after it's turned off- but never while it's on.

It's actually really pathetic. When Leopard first game out, and I was trying to use a new Mac Mini in a networked PC environment, Apple's level II technicians told me to return it, and buy one in a few months when they had worked out the bugs.

Compile 'em all
Apr 13, 2011, 03:04 PM
- Auto save
Hmmm....ok...how is this a big deal again?

.

I stopped reading here.

inket
Apr 13, 2011, 03:06 PM
CMD+K and entering the SMB sharing name fixed it I presume ?

ChaosAngel
Apr 16, 2011, 02:18 AM
I've attempted to highlight the main new features that have been leaked for Windows 8. I have to say, things are looking good:

http://bit.ly/gTcS4o

I am especially a fan of "portable workspace" and "factory reset". Hopefully they make the release version.

balamw
Apr 16, 2011, 06:16 AM
I am especially a fan of "portable workspace"

Good ideas never die, they just get pulled from OS releases.

http://www.macrumors.com/2003/10/08/pulled-panther-feature-home-on-ipod/

B

maflynn
Apr 16, 2011, 07:48 AM
Good ideas never die, they just get pulled from OS releases.

http://www.macrumors.com/2003/10/08/pulled-panther-feature-home-on-ipod/

B

Indeed, not bashing MS, but they completely over promised "longhorn" and under-delivered when Vista was released. I think they learned their lesson and provide features that can actually be added in the time frame.

With the latest two releases (SL & Lion) apple isn't really promising too many features so it would be very disappointing to get one pulled.

As for the list, it looks very encouraging and exciting. win8 is still a ways off, but I hope to get a beta when its available.

balamw
Apr 16, 2011, 01:58 PM
Indeed, not bashing MS, but they completely over promised "longhorn" and under-delivered when Vista was released.

But that's nothing new, to either Microsoft or Apple.

I can't imagine how different things would be today if "Cairo" and "Copland" had materialized with all the technologies they promised over 15 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copland_(operating_system)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_(operating_system)

Since then, I just wait to see what sticks, and even then, features can get deprecated in subsequent releases. I think Windows Home Server 1's Drive Extender technology was awesome, but they've pulled it from the next major release.

B

zap2
Apr 16, 2011, 02:01 PM
But that's nothing new, to either Microsoft or Apple.

I can't imagine how different things would be today if "Cairo" and "Copland" had materialized with all the technologies they promised over 15 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copland_(operating_system)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_(operating_system)

Since then, I just wait to see what sticks, and even then, features can get deprecated in subsequent releases. I think Windows Home Server 1's Drive Extender technology was awesome, but they've pulled it from the next major release.

B

Apple doesn't have much in common with the company that promised that updates. MS might have changed since their Longhorn days, but they are still much closer times wise for MS. We'll see in Vista a screw up for MS after resting on XP's success for so long, or if 7 was a fluke and MS has lost it.

I'm seeing 8 as a good OS X, but not the upgrade 7 was. Which is in part due to the mess that was Vista and the age of XP at the time of 7's launch.

balamw
Apr 16, 2011, 02:18 PM
Apple doesn't have much in common with the company that promised that updates. MS might have changed since their Longhorn days, but they are still much closer times wise for MS. We'll see in Vista a screw up for MS after resting on XP's success for so long, or if 7 was a fluke and MS has lost it.

I'm seeing 8 as a good OS X, but not the upgrade 7 was. Which is in part due to the mess that was Vista and the age of XP at the time of 7's launch.

While I agree with you overall, I think there have been plenty of features that NeXT-Apple has teased, but not ultimately delivered on. "Home on the iPod" is one and "resolution independence" is another, I'm sure there are more but these are two that might actually have mattered to me.

B

dethmaShine
Apr 16, 2011, 02:31 PM
While I agree with you overall, I think there have been plenty of features that NeXT-Apple has teased, but not ultimately delivered on. "Home on the iPod" is one and "resolution independence" is another, I'm sure there are more but these are two that might actually have mattered to me.

B

I think 'Home on iPod' might be coming in iOS 5.

But yes, Resolution Independence did matter to me a lot. But somewhere, I feel that it might not be the best thing available; but still Mac OS X has better capabilities of displaying content than windows (incl. windows 7) although I really think win8 will be a game changer in this regard; they have had tones of time, now.

HelloPanda
Apr 16, 2011, 06:53 PM
How does Gnome 3.0 on Linux compare to the new UI in OSX Lion?

I've been playing around with Gnome 3.0, and it seems like the designers have a similar philosophy about desktop navigation.


Gnome 3.0 Preview (This is not my video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joBXc3IGRBw

Criticalmass
Apr 16, 2011, 11:17 PM
Mac O.S X is better here, someone mentioned that Windows is better at security.

I disagree. Botnets like Zeus and Coreflood still infiltrate windows systems daily and anti-virus has yet to be able to stop them and remove them.

roadbloc
Apr 17, 2011, 05:11 AM
How does Gnome 3.0 on Linux compare to the new UI in OSX Lion?

I've been playing around with Gnome 3.0, and it seems like the designers have a similar philosophy about desktop navigation.


Gnome 3.0 Preview (This is not my video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joBXc3IGRBw

I'm sorry, but that is very Mac OS X-esske.

TuffLuffJimmy
Apr 17, 2011, 05:56 AM
How does Gnome 3.0 on Linux compare to the new UI in OSX Lion?

I've been playing around with Gnome 3.0, and it seems like the designers have a similar philosophy about desktop navigation.


Gnome 3.0 Preview (This is not my video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joBXc3IGRBw

That's a pretty sick OS. I haven't ever run Fedora on a computer of mine, but my uncle swears by it. That video has convinced me to run it on my next box.

maflynn
Apr 17, 2011, 06:08 AM
That's a pretty sick OS. I haven't ever run Fedora on a computer of mine, but my uncle swears by it. That video has convinced me to run it on my next box.

I like fedora over ubuntu. I haven't run fedora for a while, I think I'll take second look when the new version comes out.

daleycss
Apr 17, 2011, 04:56 PM
I've attempted to highlight the main new features that have been leaked for Windows 8. I have to say, things are looking good:

http://bit.ly/gTcS4o

I am especially a fan of "portable workspace" and "factory reset". Hopefully they make the release version.

uh ok... "built in pdf reader... windows marketplace - providing users easy access to Windows applications." - never seen that in an operating system before...

dethmaShine
Apr 17, 2011, 06:21 PM
uh ok... "built in pdf reader... windows marketplace - providing users easy access to Windows applications." - never seen that in an operating system before...

True but that's a very very very early build; not even a win8 build; looks like Windows 7 SP.

I think we should wait for a while to see what win8 brings to us.

As of now, it's got the pathetic ribbon UI. :rolleyes:

munkery
Apr 17, 2011, 06:36 PM
How does Gnome 3.0 on Linux compare to the new UI in OSX Lion?

I've been playing around with Gnome 3.0, and it seems like the designers have a similar philosophy about desktop navigation.


Gnome 3.0 Preview (This is not my video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joBXc3IGRBw

That's a pretty sick OS. I haven't ever run Fedora on a computer of mine, but my uncle swears by it. That video has convinced me to run it on my next box.

I like fedora over ubuntu. I haven't run fedora for a while, I think I'll take second look when the new version comes out.

I wish Ubuntu went with Gnome 3 over Unity. Fedora is great but it is more "free" than Ubuntu as Fedora includes fewer/no? proprietary drivers by default so it is a little bit more work to get running on some hardware.

The next Fedora may be worth the extra effort.

Here is a link for those looking to stay up to date on Win 8. http://www.winrumors.com/

Or, at least looking to retaliate?

maflynn
Apr 17, 2011, 06:58 PM
I wish Ubuntu went with Gnome 3 over Unity. Fedora is great but it is more "free" than Ubuntu as Fedora includes fewer/no? proprietary drivers by default so it is a little bit more work to get running on some hardware.
I like fedora, but I agree with you 100%, its a pain to upgrade because it requires a lot of tweaking to get it to work on my system. I went with an nividia GPU not only to make my desktop hackintoshable but also so I can download the the proprietary drivers. ATI linux support is pathetic. Still even with the drivers, I have to work at tweaking the system to get it working the way I want it too.

Blakeasd
Apr 17, 2011, 08:43 PM
GNOME 3 looks like more of an OS X copy than Windows 8

munkery
Apr 17, 2011, 10:13 PM
GNOME 3 looks like more of an OS X copy than Windows 8

Gnome desktops always looked more Mac-esque because of the menubar being at the top of the screen. It actually functions a lot differently than OS X despite the similar appearance.

TennisandMusic
Apr 17, 2011, 11:37 PM
uh ok... "built in pdf reader... windows marketplace - providing users easy access to Windows applications." - never seen that in an operating system before...

You mean like how Finder is finally adding cut and paste? Give me a break, there is plenty that Windows does that OSX does not do, like decent graphics support for one. It cuts both ways.

maflynn
Apr 18, 2011, 05:41 AM
You mean like how Finder is finally adding cut and paste?
Wow, so the finder is finally giving us, what other OS' had for years. I wonder what the fanboys will say now, after defending this lack of a feature for years.

I suspect along the lines that apple innovates again and creates a brand new feature :p

dethmaShine
Apr 18, 2011, 07:40 AM
Wow, so the finder is finally giving us, what other OS' had for years. I wonder what the fanboys will say now, after defending this lack of a feature for years.

I suspect along the lines that apple innovates again and creates a brand new feature :p

I don't know which iPhone users were you talking about.

Everyone wanted multi-tasking; there are hypocrites, but can't believe any body touting that multi-tasking is bad or could be bad.

logandzwon
Apr 18, 2011, 02:00 PM
It looks like the only way M$ is "catching up" is by copying technologies with which we are already familiar. As Bertrand Serlet suggested, maybe M$ really DID start up their photocopiers :D

I saw a video on YouTube entitled "The Real Windows Vista (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QdGt3ix2CQ)", in which the audio from a (series of) M$ lecture(s) was combined with video showing a Mac user demonstrating the then-unreleased features of Vista on a Mac. It was originally in three parts, and at the end of each part the specific technologies mentioned were identified, as well as the year in which they were introduced. It appears also that, as Mr. Serlet also mentioned, "if you can't innovate, you must imitate, but it's never quite the same."

Heh, I've seen that video it's classic. However, if you were to say fair-is-fair, MS publicly announced their road map for what became Vista before XP even came out. Apple KNEW what MS was working on. No body knew what Apple was working on.

dethmaShine
Apr 19, 2011, 03:51 AM
Heh, I've seen that video it's classic. However, if you were to say fair-is-fair, MS publicly announced their road map for what became Vista before XP even came out. Apple KNEW what MS was working on. No body knew what Apple was working on.

Would love to read about it. Links?

KirkL
Apr 19, 2011, 06:21 AM
Wooo let's compare two unreleased OSes.

maflynn
Apr 19, 2011, 06:58 AM
Heh, I've seen that video it's classic. However, if you were to say fair-is-fair, MS publicly announced their road map for what became Vista before XP even came out. Apple KNEW what MS was working on. No body knew what Apple was working on.

The problem was that all that MS publicly announced for "Longhorn" never really made it into "vista" So while everyone knew what MS was working on, MS was unable to deliver.

underblu
Apr 20, 2011, 02:17 AM
I use both OSX and Windows.

Apple has it right: simplicity and robustness. Why change the OSX UI, it's straightforwd, lacks unesesary adornments and most importantly doesn't get in the way.

I don't get the whole OS thing anyway. To me it's all about the apllications anyway.

Having been a diehard Windows fan for years they lost me with Vista and not being able to buy a powerful lightweight aluminim Laptop with good battery life made the choice of a MBP overwhelming. I really grown to like OSX and hope they keep the look and feel.

You know to this day you can look at a Porsche 911 from 1967 and see the continuity of design through the years. Because why fool with desingn perfection when refinement is all that's needed.

8CoreWhore
Apr 20, 2011, 02:47 AM
Objective Vs. Subjective.

Both have to be considered.

Pros and cons of both OS's. (objective)

What you like, how the OS "feels", your computing approach, etc. (subjective)

Chocolate Vs. Vanilla = Subjective.

Which one happens to be colder. = Objective.

Reasec
Apr 20, 2011, 04:23 AM
Windows are purely OS for "work enviroment". OSX is for casual stuff.

Cant imagine using freakin Miranda/ICQ/Trillian/Digsby piece of crap with MS Movie Maker and so on.

Same as i cant imagine using Outlook/Excel on Mac OS.

Windows is like Semi, gigantic ugly looking utility vehicle. Mac OS is like convertible ferrari - nice pus.sy magnet for everyday casual use.

Dr McKay
Apr 20, 2011, 12:34 PM
The problem was that all that MS publicly announced for "Longhorn" never really made it into "vista" So while everyone knew what MS was working on, MS was unable to deliver.

This time around they're (trying) to prevent leaks of the build surfacing. So the only people who could potentially be disappointed are geeks like me who actively search for leaked Alpha & Beta features.

Theres a lot that could change though, it's still only at Milestone 3.

tkermit
Sep 7, 2011, 04:38 PM
I just couldn't resist when I saw the comparison being made in this MSDN blog (http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/08/29/improvements-in-windows-explorer.aspx) post between the Explorer in Windows 7 and the Explorer in Windows 8:

http://f.cl.ly/items/2o0x2D2o1O3K3o222j2p/win8lion.png

:p

Taz Mangus
Sep 7, 2011, 04:46 PM
I just couldn't resist when I saw the comparison being made in this MSDN blog (http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/08/29/improvements-in-windows-explorer.aspx) post between the Explorer in Windows 7 and the Explorer in Windows 8:

Image (http://f.cl.ly/items/2o0x2D2o1O3K3o222j2p/win8lion.png)

:p

I cringe every time I see that ribbon. I hate the ribbon in the newest version of Microsoft Office. I can't imagine having it built into an OS. Microsoft likes to over complicate things beyond reason.

baryon
Sep 7, 2011, 05:13 PM
Main difference between OS X Lion and Windows 8: Windows 8 doesn't exist.

ufkdo
Sep 7, 2011, 06:20 PM
Main difference between OS X Lion and Windows 8: Windows 8 doesn't exist

yet.

GoKyu
Sep 7, 2011, 11:40 PM
How does Gnome 3.0 on Linux compare to the new UI in OSX Lion?

I've been playing around with Gnome 3.0, and it seems like the designers have a similar philosophy about desktop navigation.


Gnome 3.0 Preview (This is not my video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joBXc3IGRBw

This video made me start downloading the latest Ubuntu so I could try GNOME 3...looks like a mix of the best of OS X and Windows 7 - Expose, Spaces (looks a bit more like "Mission Control" though), Windows Snap, etc...

I find it amusing that they basically copy this stuff - if you noticed in the "Control Panel" section, the "Universal Access" wording and the icon are from OS X...Expose looks exactly the same, the new "Spotlight" search. All great features though.

blipmusic
Sep 10, 2011, 06:31 AM
I just couldn't resist when I saw the comparison being made in this MSDN blog (http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/08/29/improvements-in-windows-explorer.aspx) post between the Explorer in Windows 7 and the Explorer in Windows 8

UI wise that Win 8 explorer is horrible to an end user. Everything and the kitchen sink in your face is absolutely not the way to go about interaction. A lot of different interaction possibilities fighting for attention.

When MS released what looked to be a tablet OS teaser for Win 8, I was hoping they were actually on to something, trying to move forward. Then there were reports of "regular" windows thrown in there as well depending on the application, which sounded like two different interface concepts with different mechanics fighting each other.

Now this. This is a step backwards in interface design. What's even more ironic is how MS in that blog post goes on about a few commands that from user testing seem to be the ones to focus on, only to mix them up and inlcude the less prioritized ones as well in that horrible ribbon ui.

MS seem to lack interface designers on the explorer side altogether. They need some new designer blood.

In the mobile world we are moving towards more streamlined interfaces that try to focus on the main content with clear large, and even full screen, menus when needed. Garbage is suppressed. Apple is currently using Lion as a testing ground (EDIT: And Linux as well it seems! :)) for how to adopt that to a desktop environment. For better or worse, sure, but they're looking ahead.

That Win 8 explorer interface on the other hand reeks of '90s ui design with bits all over the place. It honestly looks like a joke to me.

It's odd really. MS can bring out some fantastic concepts but when it comes to release products it's the same old (on the software side). As if their concept lab exists in another universe. PR wise they even hype up these concept products, only to silently killing them shortly after, with no release. I actually liked what the Courier wanted to be. More so than the iPad. [EDIT: I should perhaps note that I'm not discussing the OS itself, Win 8 might be great, I'm just commenting on what we've seen of the explorer ui and ui talk so far.]

EDIT:
How does Gnome 3.0 on Linux compare to the new UI in OSX Lion?

I've been playing around with Gnome 3.0, and it seems like the designers have a similar philosophy about desktop navigation.

Gnome 3.0 Preview (This is not my video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joBXc3IGRBw

That actually looks very, very nice. Personally, I don't really care whether a UI concept has been borrowed from another OS or not as long as it's put to good use. The stuff that looks similar to what we have in OS X in that video is elegantly integrated with the rest of the features in a seemingly efficient way, not bolted on for show. Loved the integrated window manager as well - I currenty use Moom for that feature.

UltraNEO*
Sep 10, 2011, 08:17 AM
It looks like the only way M$ is "catching up" is by copying technologies with which we are already familiar. As Bertrand Serlet suggested, maybe M$ really DID start up their photocopiers :D


But could it be that MS is just listening to it's customer feedback whom are demanding Mac-like features? Does that make MS guilty for listening?

darster
Sep 10, 2011, 09:34 AM
It's not that Windows 8 is a bad OS, in fact it could be better than Lion. We don't know. The problem is that Microsoft has no QC over the companies that build the PC's that will have Windows 8 as their OS. There is some shaky QC by some of those manufacturers.

thejadedmonkey
Sep 10, 2011, 10:01 AM
Mac O.S X is better here, someone mentioned that Windows is better at security.

I disagree. Botnets like Zeus and Coreflood still infiltrate windows systems daily and anti-virus has yet to be able to stop them and remove them.

But most bots have to be downloaded onto the users machine by the user. It's very hard to get a virus on Windows 7, even using IE 9, without the user specifically allowing it.

Eidorian
Sep 10, 2011, 10:17 AM
The MSDN blog is making good progress and is updated nearly everyday. Not much else until we get a public Beta.

Bob Coxner
Sep 10, 2011, 10:45 AM
Have you seen this video of Win 8 booting in 8 seconds? I'm dazzled when my 2011 MBA boots in about 15 seconds but 8 is incredible.

https://thisismynext.com/2011/09/08/windows-8-fast-boot-hibernate-resume/

blipmusic
Sep 10, 2011, 11:10 AM
Have you seen this video of Win 8 booting in 8 seconds? I'm dazzled when my 2011 MBA boots in about 15 seconds but 8 is incredible.

https://thisismynext.com/2011/09/08/windows-8-fast-boot-hibernate-resume/

That's pretty awesome, especially if it's 8 sec to a usable state (e.g. ui responds well etc).

Nice seeing the Metro UI at startup as well as I'm curious how it will be utilized in the finished product. That's what I want to see, rather than the new bloated explorer (something I hope MS rethinks).

tkermit
Sep 10, 2011, 11:36 AM
The MSDN blog is making good progress and is updated nearly everyday.

It would be pretty awesome if Apple had such a blog. I'm not sure whether it's in their best interest – maybe not – but I personally would love it. :)

markrox7
Sep 10, 2011, 11:52 AM
I think the only thing Windows 8 has going for it is it's fast bootup time. But by the time Windows 8 is released and hardware manufacturers add crapware onto Windows 8, the whole system will feel buggy and slow. Just like with windows 7 crapware preinstalled.

blipmusic
Sep 10, 2011, 12:11 PM
I think the only thing Windows 8 has going for it is it's fast bootup time. But by the time Windows 8 is released and hardware manufacturers add crapware onto Windows 8, the whole system will feel buggy and slow. Just like with windows 7 crapware preinstalled.

While pre-installed bloatware is to be expected I don't see how that is in any way relevant to the OS itself and its features? It's not an argument for or against; in fact it's not an argument at all, at least not based in any logic.

"I bought a Ferrari and someone smashed up my windows and stole my tires. Ferraris suck." ...?

A clean reinstall is but a few clicks away. I think that's what most people go by anyway.

xUKHCx
Sep 10, 2011, 12:59 PM
Have you seen this video of Win 8 booting in 8 seconds? I'm dazzled when my 2011 MBA boots in about 15 seconds but 8 is incredible.

https://thisismynext.com/2011/09/08/windows-8-fast-boot-hibernate-resume/

"For folks wanting to know the machine Emily used -- it is an EliteBook 8640p (Intel® Core i7-2620M, 8GB, 160GB SSD)." source (http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/09/08/delivering-fast-boot-times-in-windows-8.aspx#10208312)

Also reading the blog it isn't a like for like comparison to the boot process on your mac. It wasn't a cold boot, it is like a power on +resume from hibernation.

However that said if you compare the lengths of the bars then it looks like a cold boot on that machine would be about 13 seconds which is still impressive.

I am liking the improvements for windows 8. Some of them are "I'll wait until I try it" whereas these obvious improvements are great.

Eidorian
Sep 10, 2011, 01:50 PM
It would be pretty awesome if Apple had such a blog. I'm not sure whether it's in their best interest – maybe not – but I personally would love it. :)I recall a high level of openness from Vista and 7. Though 7 is much more fresh in my mind. The Build conference is next week so I am expecting more news there. Even a rumored Kal-El tablet running Windows 8 in action.

I really want to see what the Modern Reader has to offer given the years of complaints on the lack of a built-in PDF reader.