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stevemiller
Apr 9, 2011, 11:34 AM
full screen apps, auto save, versions, resume, these are the things that would sell me on lion. except every single one of them comes with an asterix "*Available with apps that have been developed to work with Lion." ...to me that just sounds like smoke and mirrors.

1. maybe some smaller mac-only apps will leverage these features in an attempt to be more competitive, but i'm not counting on adobe or any other large cross platform developers ever bothering. i heavily use creative suite and various 3d packages, and i'm betting that just like open CL, many of these lion features make nice marketing bullet points but translate to very limited real world adoption.

2. none of this is really anything that developers couldn't already do if they desired: fullscreen - see chrome; autosave/versions - see after effects or final cut; resume - see text wrangler. so one may counter "but apple is providing a consistent and unified experience for these features" to which i respond "see my first point." it will be as it was, a hodgepodge of inconsistent, per-app behaviour.

so, i guess can look forward to their other headlining features?

-the app store (nope, they already gave us that and i already don't really care)

-launch-pad (no thanks, a prettied up grid display of my apps folder doesn't really do much for me. i'll take quicksilver, spotlight or even pinned-to-the-dock icons to get me to my program quickly, rather than swiping through app pages, presumably admiring the softly blurred wallpaper image)

-mission control may or may not be a refinement on expose, i dunno. looks convoluted through; if windows are grouped by app and you're looking for a specific app window, how useful is it buried under the "pile" of windows that represent that app?

-air drop looks like they took the "shared" area from the finder sidebar and made it a lion-to-lion-only feature. presumably they're sprinkling lion pixie dust on it so that you don't get the "connection failed" error that happens half the time you currently try putting something in another user's public>dropbox folder.

anyway, mostly this is just a rant, as i intend to time my macbook pro upgrade this summer so it is bundled with snow leopard but i can get lion through that "up-to-date" window they usually provide. i'm sure as time goes on certain updates will become lion-only and i'll have to adapt, but i got burned being an early adopter of snow leopard only to deal with all the initial release bugs and no real performance improvements from all that grand central and open cl mumbo jumbo.

i seriously miss the days when new versions brought truly useful stuff like expose, spotlight and time machine!



PurrBall
Apr 9, 2011, 11:53 AM
These features becoming system-wide, however, will increase the chances that developers will implement them, which is good for everyone- they have less work, we have less worry.

stevemiller
Apr 9, 2011, 02:35 PM
These features becoming system-wide, however, will increase the chances that developers will implement them

i understand that's the goal but it's still "the potential of a feature" rather than an actual feature, and as opencl demonstrated, potential is not always realized, especially when its os-specific and developers are trying to deploy for multiple platforms. heck, name even one apple app that bothers to leverage open cl (yeah yeah h264 decoding in quicktime x, but no encoding where you might actually SAVE time; nowhere for rendering in final cut; nowhere for image processing in aperture)

time will tell, but my bets are that you won't see these lion features implemented anytime soon in the software that would most benefit from them either, aka mission-critical productivity apps.

and from a casual/novice user standpoint, i think this situation would be just as disappointing for those who assume "oh hey i'm using lion so everything autosaves and auto-reopens" ...except when it doesn't.

anyway, maybe i'll be wrong, but until all that autosave/resume/versions stuff is confirmed working in mainstream software, i'm calling lion's bluff of on these so-called new features!

*EDIT: I'll eat my words, aperture uses open cl for raw processing, good on them for that at least.

maflynn
Apr 9, 2011, 02:50 PM
One thing is for sure. Jobs did not provide us with a lot of features when he unveiled 10.7. Will apple add more features in between now and the public release.

Yes, I believe so. Will they be major additions, no. The developer preview is probably feature complete for the most part, no major new enhancements will be making its way in.

I'm underwhelmed by 10.7 as it stands now, while I have concerns and apple really has failed to sell 10.7 to me. I'll wait until they release final product before making my ultimate judgment on whether its a worthwhile upgrade.

mrsir2009
Apr 9, 2011, 03:30 PM
I'm becoming reluctant to get Lion too now. It doesn't seem much different from Snow Leopard, and its probably not worth the bother of re-doing my entire MBP for the 3rd time...

The only current major feature I'd like is the launchpad thats similar to the iPad. Because there are lots of apps I'd like to be on my desktop visible, but can't fit on the dock. However this feature, even though I'd really like it, is certainly not worth buying Lion for.

I find it funny how they advertised the app store as a new Lion feature - Hello? They gave it to us ages on on SNOW LEOPARD.

NameUndecided
Apr 9, 2011, 03:38 PM
It's better that they introduce new features that may take some time to catch on, or not every third party will immediately latch on to, than to, for that very reason, not introduce something at all.

In my view, it's Apple's job as an OS creator to introduce new features and to make them work well and smoothly enough that third parties will be encouraged to make use of them -- even to go so far as having third party developers appear behind the curve if they don't.

This is something that Apple is apparently really good at -- creating a new baseline or framework, or aspects of a framework, and expecting those who develop for their platform to follow suit.
Apple's job is to make the new features work well enough that they become new standard -- which is to say that they're practical, aesthetically attractive, streamlined into the interface smoothly enough, and… anything else that I'm not thinking of.

And... pardon me if this is coming off as a little too "ra-ra Apple" -- but new features and standards may not always follow through as much as Apple wants, but I'm sure that most of us [a good portion of the time] are glad that they're making the effort.

Developers following suit is part of the game. Apple can't (and doesn't) innovate alone. If a third party isn't making use of a new option that is useful and works well, then… they're just being boring.

maclaptop
Apr 9, 2011, 03:51 PM
I'm not as concerned about having to wait for full implementation of features, as I am about the fact that iOS is a mobile OS.

I fail to see what good blending iOS into OS X will be for power users such as myself and others, that use our computers to make a living.

I do a lot of scientific / math / maya / etc. and fail to see anything but disadvantages.

If I am wrong, please correct me. Tell me what Lion has to offer those of us who have been using computers professionally for years. :)

mrsir2009
Apr 9, 2011, 04:07 PM
I'm not as concerned about having to wait for full implementation of features, as I am about the fact that iOS is a mobile OS.

I fail to see what good blending iOS into OS X will be for power users such as myself and others, that use our computers to make a living.

I do a lot of scientific / math / maya / etc. and fail to see anything but disadvantages.

If I am wrong, please correct me. Tell me what Lion has to offer those of us who have been using computers professionally for years. :)

Thats the thing - Apple is trending more and more to be a consumer company, not a professional one. Its very sad, I liked Apple better before all this iOS consumer stuff :(

maclaptop
Apr 9, 2011, 04:11 PM
Thats the thing - Apple is trending more and more to be a consumer company, not a professional one. Its very sad, I liked Apple better before all this iOS consumer stuff :(
You read my mind Perfectly !

balamw
Apr 9, 2011, 04:50 PM
I do a lot of scientific / math / maya / etc. and fail to see anything but disadvantages.
It's still Unix under the hood. I haven't played with it myself, but one of the things I like about the Mac platform is that it insulates me from Unix when I don't want it, but the full power of Unix is right there just below the surface.

Things like Grand Central Dispatch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Central_Dispatch) are huge for performance users.

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vincenz
Apr 9, 2011, 04:55 PM
Just give them time. It's not like everything can get set up overnight. You don't even know how it is yet. Theres still time until the summer.

maclaptop
Apr 9, 2011, 05:16 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm neither complaining, or criticizing. Nor am I being impatient, as I have nothing but patience when it comes to new technologies. It's a matter of sharing thoughts in this forum designed for open discussion.

I'm just feeling a bit concerned with all this focus placed on entertainment, ultra simple consumer level devices, and reducing things down so they can be used by great grandpa.

This, amongst all the posts complaining about the complexity of Android (hardly complex), is an all new area for one to ponder. It makes me wonder just what Apple is up to that is not obvious.

stevemiller
Apr 9, 2011, 05:41 PM
It's better that they introduce new features that may take some time to catch on, or not every third party will immediately latch on to, than to, for that very reason, not introduce something at all.

i do generally agree with this sentiment as i am always in favour of innovation, but if its uncertain that a feature will even be available in many cases, it doesn't really drive my desire to buy the product. and that seems to be the case with most of the features that interest me in lion. there needs to be a mix, and right now it seems like the only headline features that'll be guaranteed useable from day one are a fullscreen grid of application icons and some new scrollbars. :P

balamw
Apr 9, 2011, 05:46 PM
i do generally agree with this sentiment as i am always in favour of innovation, but if its uncertain that a feature will even be available in many cases, it doesn't really drive my desire to buy the product. and that seems to be the case with most of the features that interest me in lion. there needs to be a mix, and right now it seems like the only headline features that'll be guaranteed useable from day one are a fullscreen grid of application icons and some new scrollbars. :P

By WWDC we should see more details and also some more insight into first and third party apps that take advantage of some of the "under the hood" features.

I was just invited to a beta program for one such third party application looking at a fairly major update due to come out around Lion's release. I don't know what features will be Lion only and what will be supported under Snow Leopard. There are NDAs involved so I won't say any more.

B

ECUpirate44
Apr 9, 2011, 05:52 PM
I liked Apple better before all this iOS consumer stuff :(

Me too. I remember when Apple was a computer company, but I do love my iPhone...

inket
Apr 9, 2011, 05:53 PM
Pixelmator uses most of OS X's under-the-hood features. And it shows - It's a really great and fast app.

Also I heard Lion is getting OpenGL 3, though I'm not sure where I read that.

mrsir2009
Apr 10, 2011, 12:39 AM
Me too. I remember when Apple was a computer company, but I do love my iPhone...

Yup, and it was called "Apple Computers".

BTW its interesting how the guys in the new MBA videos and stuff are the same guys as in the iBook G3 videos all those years ago...

baryon
Apr 10, 2011, 03:58 AM
So many people aren't going to upgrade yet, as they'll wait for developers to implement all their features (such as full screen and auto-save, etc), but then developers will say "well why should we implement our features if no one's using the OS?".

This is why there should be enough useful features for the user, that work straight out of the box, so that they upgrade.

If not, they should just make it as cheap as Snow Leopard. Snow Leopard had almost nothing for the user, so people had no motivation to upgrade. But Apple knew that the only way to get developers to harvest all the stuff they put into Snow Leopard (the stuff they consider will be important for future OSs as well), is to get most people to adopt the OS. To get people to adopt, well they made it really cheap and had a handful of features that may make it worth it for the average person (Quick Time X, Put Back to Trash (never works) and I can't really think of any more at the moment).

I think Lion does have some new interesting features, such as the GUI refinements, a slightly better Preview and Quick Look, Year View in Calendar, and all that sort of stuff. There's so many of these, in fact, that I may upgrade just for those.

Then the "real" stuff, such as Resume, Auto Save, Versions, Full Screen, etc, will come later. Maybe by 10.8 all of those will work with every App (though I really can't see the most important Apps for me doing anything about it: Adobe).

maclaptop
Apr 10, 2011, 04:21 AM
Me too. I remember when Apple was a computer company, but I do love my iPhone...
I stay very close to all the news reports about Apple "Outside of The Walled Garden". It's the only way to get a balanced view.If one takes things with a healthy dose of scepticism, you can get a pretty good read on things.

Often it's what's not said that becomes very revealing. Apple's increasingly frequent refusal to acknowledge certain issues, unless there is an overwhelming amount of press and user push back is of concern. Just a few years ago they were more forthcoming, a fact that even Wozniak has highlighted.

balamw
Apr 10, 2011, 08:13 AM
The front page story on Final Cut Pro (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/04/10/next-final-cut-pro-at-nab-next-week-due-spring-2011-some-more-hints/) echos what I think.

Apple doesn't really care what we think about this, they're skating to where they think the puck will be and if recent history is any indication they are right.

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stevemiller
Apr 10, 2011, 01:59 PM
Apple doesn't really care what we think about this, they're skating to where they think the puck will be and if recent history is any indication they are right.

don't get me wrong, i think autosave/resume/versions/fullscreen are good ideas, but i refuse to be an economic pawn paying for a feature in 10.7 that won't be adopted until i'm paying for it again in 10.8 (or 11, or mac iOS, or whatever). i remember getting a 64-bit powermac g5 in 2005, specifically being told "you'll be futureproof with 64-bit" and of course them abandoning powerpc before the OS matured to being able to run 64-bit gui apps. if there's nothing in lion out of the box worth it to me, i'll skip it or just get it by default with my next computer purchase.

maclaptop
Apr 10, 2011, 02:14 PM
Apple doesn't really care what we think about this, they're skating to where they think the puck will be and if recent history is any indication they are right.

B
That's true. A reflection of the new Apple.

They used to create based on their brilliance AND what customers wanted. Now what customers want is given little merit. It's now all about astronomical profits, bragging rights, and executives personal wealth.

I'm a capitalist and all for Apple's success, but I do believe they don't need to act so pompous, arrogant, and as they are the only one that knows what's best for us.

Sure to those who don't think for themselves, Apples way works.

But for knowledgeable professionals the rapid race for retail supremacy and appliance like simplicity, is discouraging.

steviem
Apr 10, 2011, 02:32 PM
Thats the thing - Apple is trending more and more to be a consumer company, not a professional one. Its very sad, I liked Apple better before all this iOS consumer stuff :(

Where do you think Apple wants the developers of their iOS apps to do their developing?

Apple will always have their 'trucks' for developers and more professional people.

Although one thing seems to be for certain, and that is some business users are getting less and less need to carry full blown computers with them.

balamw
Apr 10, 2011, 03:09 PM
if there's nothing in lion out of the box worth it to me, i'll skip it or just get it by default with my next computer purchase.

For me it is far too early to tell. Will have to wait and see.

That's true. A reflection of the new Apple.


If by "new", you mean Apple since the return of Steve Jobs and return to profitability in 1998.

Apple has consistently done things that on the surface look foolish, and sometimes user-hostile, but in retrospect look prescient as to where the puck (i.e. business) will be. When they misstep, course corrections are quick and put them back on track. (e.g. making webapps the only apps for iPhone 1 was a misstep).

B

Soliber
Apr 10, 2011, 03:19 PM
and as they are the only one that knows what's best for us.
"If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses." — Henry Ford.
It's a well known fact that most people don't know what they want, and the problem with a lot of "pro" users (whatever that may entail; it seems to have more and more of a snobby undertone with every passing day), is that they only focus on their own limited viewpoint.
I wonder: what is so wrong with simplicity? Do people prefer coming to grips with their computer, or getting their work done?

balamw
Apr 10, 2011, 03:35 PM
"If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses." — Henry Ford.
It's a well known fact that most people don't know what they want

And, as your quote shows, they base what they think they want on what they know. This makes revolutionary change hard to come by.

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itickings
Apr 10, 2011, 04:27 PM
And, as your quote shows, they base what they think they want on what they know. This makes revolutionary change hard to come by.

Yeah, because if people in general knew about the revolutionary change someone else would already've done it.

In many cases however revolutionary change can actually be somewhat derived from what people say they want. Like the "faster horses" from the quote for example. The key is not to take it literary and breed "faster horses", but to focus on the fact that people obviously aren't entirely satisfied with horses and find novel and unexpected ways to deal with the issues.

Unfortunately people fear change. Just look at these Lion threads... :D

NameUndecided
Apr 10, 2011, 05:12 PM
Unfortunately people fear change. Just look at these Lion threads... :D

Fullscreen and new app launchers are too aesthetically pleasing and geared toward the masses! This continuing evolution in the ease of mainstream computing is an insult to my hard-earned technical prowess! Why would they add these new finger gestures when these keyboard shortcuts have been working for me for years??? Rabble rabble and so forth and so on!

djrod
Apr 10, 2011, 05:34 PM
Fullscreen and new app launchers are too aesthetically pleasing and geared toward the masses! This continuing evolution in the ease of mainstream computing is an insult to my hard-earned technical prowess! Why would they add these new finger gestures when these keyboard shortcuts have been working for me for years??? Rabble rabble and so forth and so on!

Relax.

Your mac comes with an app called photobooth, it's not a pro application, is it? Does that means you can't use your Mac with pro apps?...

This goes as well with all these new mainstream eye candy stuff, they are not going to hurt you or steal your(or mines) precious keyboard shortcuts

NameUndecided
Apr 10, 2011, 05:54 PM
Relax.

Your mac comes with an app called photobooth, it's not a pro application, is it? Does that means you can't use your Mac with pro apps?...

This goes as well with all these new mainstream eye candy stuff, they are not going to hurt you or steal your(or mines) precious keyboard shortcuts

I probably should have used a winky smiley. I wasn't serious.

balamw
Apr 10, 2011, 05:56 PM
I probably should have used a winky smiley. I wasn't serious.

I thought the italics made that pretty clear. ;)

B

LoganT
Apr 10, 2011, 08:20 PM
I hate how people equate ease of use with "dumbing down". If they made a Final Cut Pro that was more powerful than it currently is, and made it as easy to use as iMovie, that isn't a bad thing. It just means you aren't special anymore.

stevemiller
Apr 10, 2011, 08:42 PM
Unfortunately people fear change. Just look at these Lion threads... :D

hey, did you read my post? i'm not fearing change! my original point was that i doubt many of the changes and features will trickle down to actually benefit me for a while. so it makes the prospects of running out, buying, installing, and potentially waiting for bugfix/compatibility releases not really worth it, just to know that i have some l33t new technology that may become useful once those pokey adobe devs decide to make use of it (more likely they'll implement a godawful non-standard version that is yet another 1gb app to install in their suite). i'm not being a luddite here, i'm being a realist!

also, i'm not saying apple can't throw in some tinker-toy launchpad app if they want, but again, its not going to drive a purchase from me. its friendly and thats fine, but in terms of innovation it doesn't hold a candle to all the wonderful 3rd party launchers from quicksilver/launchbar/butler/(heck even apple's own spotlight).

let me clarify my position, i'm not saying what apple should or shouldn't do with lion or the future of mac os, just personally stating my reservations on how much i suspect i'd actually use what they're bringing to the table this round.

NT1440
Apr 10, 2011, 08:44 PM
So one of your main worries is that developers won't use the API's that Apple provides, and that somehow makes Lion the thing at fault? Huh?:confused:

stevemiller
Apr 10, 2011, 09:06 PM
I hate how people equate ease of use with "dumbing down".

things can be easy but still inefficient, and once you've discovered a more efficient way of doing something, you don't really want to go back.

taking launchbar as an example, to me nothing is easier than typing the first letter or two of what you want to do and having it appear for you. by contrast bringing up an "elegant fullscreen" display to peruse my apps against a relaxing mountain backdrop would just become tedious. i guess it would be helpful if you use your computer primarily for liesure and you're often trying to decide what application you feel like using; in fact that's regularly what i'll do on my iphone while i'm on the subway. but the fact remains thats not how i use my computer. so loading lion up with that type of stuff is fine, but i'll never bother using it, those features aren't going to drive any desire to upgrade.

stevemiller
Apr 10, 2011, 09:24 PM
So one of your main worries is that developers won't use the API's that Apple provides, and that somehow makes Lion the thing at fault? Huh?:confused:

fault is the wrong word. but is it not fair to have legitimate concerns about developer adoption when that adoption is essential to the utility of 4 of the tentpole features apple is advertising? compared to all the stuff like time machine/expose/spotlight/etc thats there for you to use no matter what. lion feels like snow leopard, which gave us cool concepts like grand central and open cl, but they barely get used by developers, so i'm left asking myself, why did i bother? i mean if i even went back to leopard today, i'm not sure if there's anything i'd realize was missing!

NT1440
Apr 10, 2011, 09:30 PM
fault is the wrong word. but is it not fair to have legitimate concerns about developer adoption when that adoption is essential to the utility of 4 of the tentpole features apple is advertising? compared to all the stuff like time machine/expose/spotlight/etc thats there for you to use no matter what. lion feels like snow leopard, which gave us cool concepts like grand central and open cl, but they barely get used by developers, so i'm left asking myself, why did i bother? i mean if i even went back to leopard today, i'm not sure if there's anything i'd realize was missing!
Things like grand central barely got used? Source?? How would you even know?

This is how software works. OS makers give developers the tools to implement new features. Its up to the devs to use them or not. I really think we will see wide adoption of most of Lion's high profile features given enough time.

Also, consider Apple's long history of giving high profile devs prior access so that at launch there are some heavy weights in given industries implemented those features.

Your concerns do hold water, as it is up to devs to adopt many of these features, but Apple is definitely aware of this and they strive to make it easy for devs to use these tools. Apple is pretty good at making markets trend towards their aims. Look at HTML5.

ZebraineZ
Apr 11, 2011, 02:23 AM
I'm not as concerned about having to wait for full implementation of features, as I am about the fact that iOS is a mobile OS.

I fail to see what good blending iOS into OS X will be for power users such as myself and others, that use our computers to make a living.

I do a lot of scientific / math / maya / etc. and fail to see anything but disadvantages.

If I am wrong, please correct me. Tell me what Lion has to offer those of us who have been using computers professionally for years. :)

But they're not dumbing anything down or removing anything. They're just adding a lot of little tweaks and much needed features that should have been there a long time ago. They're not doing complete revamps from an advanced OS to a toy, but they are adding all those little things that make a big difference from a UI standpoint.

You're 'professional' experience with the system will remain the same, but throughout using it you'd notice some things are a bit more convenient than others. The good thing about Lion in my opinion is that this isn't going to be a compromised OS in that to add features you have to remove some.

maflynn
Apr 11, 2011, 06:04 AM
but they are adding all those little things that make a big difference from a UI standpoint.
That's where I disagree. They're adding some little things that could help some people a little. Launchpad, one of the major features of OSX, is really not a "major" feature. It may be ok, but for the most part its meh.

Given the architecture of OSX and having apps in an application folder this feature is more superfluous.

My bone of connection is that apple has been paying a lot of attention on the iDevices - and its paid off, but with SL not having any "consumer" type updates people were hoping to see some major updates to OSX, not the ipadification.

mrsir2009
Apr 11, 2011, 01:51 PM
people were hoping to see some major updates to OSX, not the ipadification.

Thats what I want to see too, but the iPadification is only going to intensify :(

If Apple is going to gear the iDevices up so grannies can use them, they could at least keep the Macs a bit "pro" without all this iOS stuff rubbing off on them!

kuwisdelu
Apr 11, 2011, 04:47 PM
My bone of connection is that apple has been paying a lot of attention on the iDevices - and its paid off, but with SL not having any "consumer" type updates people were hoping to see some major updates to OSX, not the ipadification.

Well, the thing is: if people were disappointed that SL didn't get any "consumer"-type updates, why are they now disappointed when Lion is getting exactly "consumer"-type updates? "iPadification" is just another way of saying that most of the updates are consumer-oriented, not pro-oriented.

Me? I'm looking forward to Versions. A version control system built into the OS sounds pretty pro to me. I'm also looking forward to the advancement of the QT X libraries and less dependence on the QT 7 stuff.

ETA: The only "pro" feature remotely going away is that Spaces is now 1D instead of 2D. I mourn that. But otherwise, I don't see why everyone's so afraid of any "pro" stuff going away. It's all still there. As long as the *nix underbelly is there and accessible, I don't really care what consumer stuff they put on top of it if it doesn't get in my way.

wilsonhaven
Apr 11, 2011, 05:00 PM
Full screen apps sounds like a nonstarter for me. I use spaces to split my desk top into 9 views. I still have to shuffle things around to get work done. I hope it isn't the default or is hard to avoid.:cool:

Alaerian
Apr 11, 2011, 05:02 PM
You know why I'm leery of lion?


... the big teeth.

maclaptop
Apr 11, 2011, 05:23 PM
"If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses." — Henry Ford.
It's a well known fact that most people don't know what they want, and the problem with a lot of "pro" users (whatever that may entail; it seems to have more and more of a snobby undertone with every passing day), is that they only focus on their own limijted viewpoint.
I wonder: what is so wrong with simplicity? Do people prefer coming to grips with their computer, or getting their work done?
There's nothing wrong with simplicity as long as it doesn't come at the price of dumbing down the system. The only snobbish engineers I am aware of are those right out of school. Seasoned ones are far too busy and mature for progress blocking attitudes. Furthermore there's not one accomplished scientist or engineer I know that doesn't know what they want.

Not knowing what one wants, is the home of the uninitiated and uneducated.

If not for these highly skilled professionals, we would not have the excellent products and services we have today. To suggest they don't know what they want and need in the tools of their trade (software & hardware) is to be removed from reality.

GoKyu
Apr 11, 2011, 07:07 PM
I love my desktop - it's still my primary machine, love the UNIX terminal, stability, and everything that Snow Leopard improved from Leopard. That said, I also really enjoy using my iPad, especially when I don't feel like sitting in front of a big monitor, or just want to browse online from wherever I am (like I'm doing now.)

Point is, I like both types of UI - full OS X and iOS. The whole launchpad UI doesn't make much sense on a desktop computer though. Flip through page after page, open this folder or that one...very inefficient. Works well on a small tablet-sized device, not so well on a 24"+ sized monitor.

My biggest complaint (or fear) of Lion is exactly this:

ETA: The only "pro" feature remotely going away is that Spaces is now 1D instead of 2D. I mourn that.

I'm gonna have to test the "new" Spaces before I get Lion to see how easy it is to use - looking at the demos, it doesn't seem to be as flexible as the current incarnation. If it isn't, I hope there's a setting to let us change how it's invoked.

Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely upgrading to Lion and other releases in the future, but Spaces is such a huge part of my daily interaction with OS X, that losing its current functionality will be a pretty serious loss for me.

stevemiller
Apr 11, 2011, 07:15 PM
Things like grand central barely got used? Source?? How would you even know?

This is how software works. OS makers give developers the tools to implement new features. Its up to the devs to use them or not. I really think we will see wide adoption of most of Lion's high profile features given enough time.

fair call on gcd, i don't know how widely it has been adopted. after a quick web search, final cut i believe does not, since its still carbon (but that may change tomorrow), cs5 sounds like it does (which is heartening, although i've had far worse performance from my adobe apps since snow leopard, but thats another discussion).

anyway, my point in all of this was not "lion WILL suck;" but the realization that many of the features may not be immediately useable, and i worry if cross platform developers might not want to add os-specific features making their software behave differently on different systems. as a result, that makes me leery of getting it straight away and dealing with whatever initial release kinks there may be when the flip-side benefits are still uncertain.

a lot of people seem to get offended if you speak your mind about concerns for apple stuff, and i'm not sure why. if nothing else, delayed developer adoption of features is at least worth raising awareness. many os features in the past have been stand-alone tools that start globally working for you immediately: spotlight, time machine, spaces, expose, automator, and so on. until recently i didn't even think about how the individual software devs would have to update their apps for many of lion's tentpole features; i naively assumed the magic os pixie dust would do all the work and i'd be safe from every overwriting or losing a document in a crash ever again. and i'm a relatively savvy computer user, so there's got to be a lot of other people who are going to go into lion assuming the same thing, and be posting angrily when they lose stuff.

with regards to stuff like launchpad, i'm not complaining about them, i'm just saying they're of little interest to me. i wanted to express my concerns about the features that do interest me without dismissive responses like "who cares launchpad alone is reason to upgrade." :rolleyes:

MattInOz
Apr 11, 2011, 10:32 PM
anyway, my point in all of this was not "lion WILL suck;" but the realization that many of the features may not be immediately useable, and i worry if cross platform developers might not want to add os-specific features making their software behave differently on different systems. as a result, that makes me leery of getting it straight away and dealing with whatever initial release kinks there may be when the flip-side benefits are still uncertain.


That is true of every OS release...
OS's are platforms for developers some features will get take up quickly others won't. Some may take a lot of work, so they have to be timetabled into the development budgets. Then again even minor changes aren't trivial and still need budget time to test.

How well these tentpoles integrate with existing work is something that will no doubt be discussed at WWDC. If Auto-Save is an extension of system Save then those who use that will get it with little effort.

If you take something Like GCD it's not like it made the problem of finding parallel code any easier. What it did was make dealing with the code easier so once a programmer had found a snippets that could be handled off the main thread. The full benefit of a tech like that will years to implement. Take years of programmers learn what works what doesn't there will be short term gains and long term gains. Big complex programs will have code in it that unless it breaks won't even be touched for a couple of years. I know of one cross-platform program that went SL only (on the Mac side) because of the benefits of GCD on a very low level part of the program.

I guess it comes down to your own natural Optimistism levels.

kuwisdelu
Apr 11, 2011, 10:58 PM
I know of one cross-platform program that went SL only on the Mac side because of the benefits of GCD on very low level part of the program.

I suggest a hyphen up there. I had to re-read that sentence several times thinking "only on the Mac side?? But it shouldn't be possible to go SL on the Windows side!!" :eek:

But I'm a tad inebriated, so... :o

Soliber
Apr 12, 2011, 12:45 AM
There's nothing wrong with simplicity as long as it doesn't come at the price of dumbing down the system. The only snobbish engineers I am aware of are those right out of school. Seasoned ones are far too busy and mature for progress blocking attitudes. Furthermore there's not one accomplished scientist or engineer I know that doesn't know what they want.

Not knowing what one wants, is the home of the uninitiated and uneducated.

If not for these highly skilled professionals, we would not have the excellent products and services we have today. To suggest they don't know what they want and need in the tools of their trade (software & hardware) is to be removed from reality.
Yes, but that there is my beef exactly, always talking about "dumbing down" and how some people are evidently the "pro users" and whatnot. They sound to me like those dinosaurs who still lurk the internet, full of pride because they can handle pointers and full of disgust for those who prefer automatic garbage collection (not that the two are specifically related).
As far as I see it, Lion isn't even out yet. As far as I can tell, they have done no such thing as remove some critical OMFG feature which would make it impossible to navigate OS X through anything but Launchpad.
So what is all the fuss about? Why do some of those "pro users" need to distinguish themselves so from what they see is "consumer" market?
If I profile code and try to read IL-code, does that make me a pro user? If someone uses Photoshop for their job vis a vis their hobby, does that make that person a pro user?
It almost seems as if these "pro users" feel their technical prowess to be less relevant in an operating system which tries to make things simple, and they don't like it.
And as far as not knowing what they want: they may very well be the most intelligent engineers that have ever graced our planet, that does not make them visionaries. If you're stuck into doing things a certain way for too lang, you tend to loose sight of other ways to go about it. If what you were saying was actually generally true, there would be a lot more companies bringing out tech that shocks the market, instead of just one at the moment.

dethmaShine
Apr 12, 2011, 07:17 AM
Yes, but that there is my beef exactly, always talking about "dumbing down" and how some people are evidently the "pro users" and whatnot. They sound to me like those dinosaurs who still lurk the internet, full of pride because they can handle pointers and full of disgust for those who prefer automatic garbage collection (not that the two are specifically related).
As far as I see it, Lion isn't even out yet. As far as I can tell, they have done no such thing as remove some critical OMFG feature which would make it impossible to navigate OS X through anything but Launchpad.
So what is all the fuss about? Why do some of those "pro users" need to distinguish themselves so from what they see is "consumer" market?
If I profile code and try to read IL-code, does that make me a pro user? If someone uses Photoshop for their job vis a vis their hobby, does that make that person a pro user?
It almost seems as if these "pro users" feel their technical prowess to be less relevant in an operating system which tries to make things simple, and they don't like it.
And as far as not knowing what they want: they may very well be the most intelligent engineers that have ever graced our planet, that does not make them visionaries. If you're stuck into doing things a certain way for too lang, you tend to loose sight of other ways to go about it. If what you were saying was actually generally true, there would be a lot more companies bringing out tech that shocks the market, instead of just one at the moment.

It's a big a common myth.

Apple user? Non-Nerd
MS/google user? Nerd and smart

I just don't know where I fit anymore as I use all three. :confused:

kuwisdelu
Apr 12, 2011, 09:57 PM
Apple has just reduced a crowd of pro video editors at NAB to the point of teenage girl-like cheergasms. I think it's safe to say they won't be leaving the Pro market any time soon. ;)

ErikGrim
Apr 12, 2011, 11:45 PM
Indeed. Has all the features talked about too, in fact touting that it's using Grand Central Dispatch for superior performance.

What I do want to know though is what is going to happen with the rest of the studio. I spend 90% of edit time in Motion, so FCP X isn't as exciting for me as I'd hoped it would be.

maclaptop
Apr 13, 2011, 12:17 AM
Yes, but that there is my beef exactly, always talking about "dumbing down" and how some people are evidently the "pro users" and whatnot. They sound to me like those dinosaurs who still lurk the internet, full of pride because they can handle pointers and full of disgust for those who prefer automatic garbage collection (not that the two are specifically related).
As far as I see it, Lion isn't even out yet. As far as I can tell, they have done no such thing as remove some critical OMFG feature which would make it impossible to navigate OS X through anything but Launchpad.
So what is all the fuss about? Why do some of those "pro users" need to distinguish themselves so from what they see is "consumer" market?
If I profile code and try to read IL-code, does that make me a pro user? If someone uses Photoshop for their job vis a vis their hobby, does that make that person a pro user?
It almost seems as if these "pro users" feel their technical prowess to be less relevant in an operating system which tries to make things simple, and they don't like it.
And as far as not knowing what they want: they may very well be the most intelligent engineers that have ever graced our planet, that does not make them visionaries. If you're stuck into doing things a certain way for too lang, you tend to loose sight of other ways to go about it. If what you were saying was actually generally true, there would be a lot more companies bringing out tech that shocks the market, instead of just one at the moment.

Your negative, verbose response to a post that simply shares some thoughts and experiences is very revealing.

dethmaShine
Apr 13, 2011, 03:50 AM
Apple has just reduced a crowd of pro video editors at NAB to the point of teenage girl-like cheergasms. I think it's safe to say they won't be leaving the Pro market any time soon. ;)

:rolleyes:

pcmxa
Apr 17, 2011, 12:35 AM
Apple has just reduced a crowd of pro video editors at NAB to the point of teenage girl-like cheergasms. I think it's safe to say they won't be leaving the Pro market any time soon. ;)

Ok, an aside, but can I ask exactly what they were cheergasming about? As far as I can tell it introduces a few features found in other editors in a slick looking package. And that is what bothers me. I seriously can't find out why most people using either Adobe's Premier or Apple's Final Cut Pro or Vegas, or Avid do so. What are the strengths and weaknesses of each platform? What are the advantages of one editor over another? Specifically, what are the advantages that someone trying to make something, say, thats going to be projected from a HD projector? What are the advantages for someone shooting a TV commercial? What are the advantages for someone filming a movie meant to sen by mass market audiences? In everyday professional usage, what makes one a better editor to use? Not specs and stats and obscure never used features, but if I want to achieve X, why should I use Y?

Or even better, why should I like Final Cut X more than Final Cut 7. How does it improve workflow? What new features does it bring? How do those relate to its competitors? Why should I stay in the family, rather than switching to someone else? I am not a consumer, but a user. When everyone is selling, why should I buy your product. How will it help me to make what I need to make?

Or to bring it back to Lion. Wouldn't it be interesting if on Apple's website, when they are listing the features (the Grid of Apps or Mission Control or whatever the hell they are calling it) they said something along the lines of " We are combining Expose with Spaces to give you four finger flick access to every application window in every space..." Instead they have a list of things that I am looking at going "well how the is launchpad different than the app folder in my dock set to grid view?" "How is Versions different than a per doc version of Time Machine (which can work that way now)?" How is autosave different than Lightroom or any of the other programs that automatically record everything you do as you do them? Instead I get corporate fluff. And poor fluff at that.

I love OS X's UI. And I love the care and design of the hardware. I hate that there seem to be otherwise competent people who go to Apple events and have cheergasms over what appears to me to be minor improvements to Final Cut Pro, especially in light of the competition's abilities. If people blindly cheer, if people aren't critical, there is no reason for Apple to continue to make the superior product that they have.

If you are going to ask for my money, and more importantly my time, please have the courtesy on you website to give me a couple of honest sentences about how Mission Control improves spaces and Expose, about how Launchpad improves the applications folder in the dock, about, well, anything.

And for god's sake, if you have actually improved anything besides UI, like say made a new attempt at Open CL (which I still am crossing my fingers for), or say, in how apps, particularly non-apple apps might engage the hardware, tell me about that too.

ErikGrim
Apr 17, 2011, 06:52 AM
tl;dr

FFS. Use, then make up your own mind. Don't rely on people to tell you what to do and like.

pcmxa
Apr 17, 2011, 08:47 AM
FFS. Use, then make up your own mind. Don't rely on people to tell you what to do and like.

I do. And that is why I am here :). I would just like some basic information straight from the companies. Something more than PR and something unfiltered through other people's mistaken impressions. It would be nice is all.

Is there a trial version of Final Cut? I couldn't find it. Is it easily possible to try new a new OS and then change your mind? (I know you can and I do clone my boot drive before every major change).

Just some drunken ramblings anyway.

Soliber
Apr 17, 2011, 03:14 PM
Your negative, verbose response to a post that simply shares some thoughts and experiences is very revealing.
It reveals I'm utterly annoyed by e-snobs.
It's all very nice if you've mastered a complex piece of software, but if tomorrow that piece of software is transformed in a way that new people need not clear as much hurdles as you to attain the same results, that's a positive thing. Not something to be all up in arms about, or look down your nose about.
Besides, my post was a general rant born out of me reading certain comments here and elsewhere, not aimed at any one person here :-)

Hastings101
May 2, 2011, 09:17 PM
Fullscreen and new app launchers are too aesthetically pleasing and geared toward the masses! This continuing evolution in the ease of mainstream computing is an insult to my hard-earned technical prowess! Why would they add these new finger gestures when these keyboard shortcuts have been working for me for years??? Rabble rabble and so forth and so on!

My complaint is not that they're too good looking or geared toward the masses, but that full screen on the Mac doesn't seem to fit with the current idea of multitasking on OS X and that we already have stacks to do the same thing as Launchpad :p

satkin2
May 3, 2011, 05:40 AM
I don't see how adding the new features to Lion can be a bad thing, sure they may take some time to be implemented by developers, but if the OS provides the framework to make these easier to introduce then it's good to see Apple doing it.

Sure we're not likely to see ssome wows straight out of the box such as Time Machine was with Leopard, but what features can they add like this?

What features like this would you want that can be built in to the OS and require no later development to make the useful?