Mom Says Youngster Has Male Brain

[wdlove]

Parents of a 9 year old 4th grader are allowing her to dress as a boy. This occured after her February vacation. The parents have changed her name and are requiring the school to treat her as a boy. She is still biologically a girl.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/family/4254137/detail.html

[dotdotdot]

Uh - what the hell does that mean, the brain of a boy?

Somethings going to be figured out when he/she becomes a teenager and begins puberty... :p :rolleyes:

[wdlove]

I think that the whole family needs counseling. At 9 years old, that's a little young to really know her body. The boy's brain comment is why the mother needs counseling. Another example why some people just aren't' meant to be parents. :( :o

[JeDiBoYTJ]

what exactly constitutes a 'male brain'? does this 'girl' sit in front of the TV drinking a beer, while scratching her belly?

I also think it could be quite interesting if he/she formed the body of a girl, but with a male brain.... but then ended up being gay :p

[PixelFactory]

How can this be healthy for this girl? She is still a girl. Changing her name and dressing her in boy's attire will not change that. I can't make a turtle into a cat by putting it in a fur coat and calling it fluffy.

[PixelFactory]

I think that the whole family needs counseling.

The article says they came to this after consulting with "medical professionals"

[Blue Velvet]

How can this be healthy for this girl? She is still a girl. Changing her name and dressing her in boy's attire will not change that. I can't make a turtle into a cat by putting it in a fur coat and calling it fluffy.

This can be perfectly healthy.

If it's a 'phase' then acknowledging and exploring her gender-dysphoria at that age is far more healthy than suppressing it.

If it's not a phase and puberty brings about increased confusion and self-loathing, then further steps can be taken to correct what is seen and experienced as an unlivable situation.

Your analogy is not at all relevant. Transexualism is not comparable to a species masquerading as another...

[killuminati]

And this is news how?

In grade 3 there was a girl in my school who acted like a boy and wanted to be one. She dressed as a boy and changed her name to David. A couple years later she went back to being a girl.
I also have a cousin who went through that when she was very young.

I don't think its that strange and the girl will probably grow out of phase in a couple years.

[Mr. Anderson]

I don't think its that strange and the girl will probably grow out of phase in a couple years.

That seems a little more reasonable than the parents going ahead and making it happen. So she/he is going to use the boys room? At that age the other kids are not going to let it go easily and she/he will be subject of some unwanted attention, I imagine.

D

[wdlove]

I do feel sorry for her/him. Using a bathroom would certainly be a major problem. Children can be very cruel toward another child. The peer pressure could be a problem, the smart thing would be for the parents to transfer her/him to another school. I wish her/him well, like others hopefully will find the real self.

Yes, the family did seek advice from "medical professionals." It doesn't mean that they received any counseling, something that seems very appropriate.

[dotdotdot]

I do feel sorry for her/him. Using a bathroom would certainly be a major problem. Children can be very cruel toward another child. The peer pressure could be a problem, the smart thing would be for the parents to transfer her/him to another school. I wish her/him well, like others hopefully will find the real self.

Yes, the family did seek advice from "medical professionals." It doesn't mean that they received any counseling, something that seems very appropriate.

Using the bathroom is one thing, what about if that school has showers after P.E.?

[comictimes]

This kind of disturbs me, mainly because the article doesn't ONCE say what the child thinks of all of this. I mean, one would assume that he (formerly she) decided that he was in fact a boy, informed his parents of this, and they apparently were perfectly okay with this.

However, since the article never mentions his feelings, it kind of makes me worried- what if it were something like, the parents had always wanted a boy, and somehow got the slightest opportunity to make the kid think this is what he wanted too. So, without giving the kid time to consult on his true feelings, they went and told everyone she was now a he, while the kid is standing back there, utterly confused and simply following along.


Sorry, I'm really tired, and when I'm tired, I get paranoid.

[SuperChuck]

I just took a test over on the BBC site to determine what "sex" my brain was. Although I'm a male, the BBC says I have a female brain. I don't plan on any sex changes, but it was a very interesting test.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/


As far as this story goes, the kid is WAY too young for this kind of stuff. I think it is healthy for people to assume whatever sexual identity they feel most comfortable with, but a 9 year old is hardly mature enough to make such a decision.

[MongoTheGeek]

I think that they are over thinking this.

If the girl wants to wear pants, let her wear pants. If she wants to be called Chris, fine. If she wants to play football and beat people up fine. Its sounds like they are trying to assign characteristics to sex that aren't characteristics of sex.

There are tribes in Africa were the men put on makeup (not war paint or the like makeup) and try to be beautiful for women.

Saying they have to treat her as a boy is delusional, bordering on psychosis. Writing a note saying she wants to be called Kevin is fine. Let her be called Kevin, let her brother be called Sue ;)

[acedickson]

I also think it could be quite interesting if he/she formed the body of a girl, but with a male brain.... but then ended up being gay :p

Not that uncommon. A psychologist would be able to help determine if what they think is true. It happens more than you think. Usually the parents don't allow it to happen.

I think this is getting more publicity because the parents are actually open minded enough to accept it.

[Dr. Dastardly]

WTF?! The girls a tom boy whats the big deal? I knew a ton of girls that wore boy type clothes and do boy type things when they were 9. Its the parents fault for taking it to such an extreme. Why do they really need to go so far into changing the childs name and telling teachers to treat the child like a boy.

[Makosuke]

[Post re-written, because after reading a little bit apparently my opinion was completely wrong]

My instinct would be to be a little worried about the parents and it's a really badly written article--it doesn't tell us anything useful--but while my initial reaction was to wonder if there's a difference between pre-pubescent children experimenting with their gender identities and an actual transgendered person (somebody who, as poorly described in that article, has the 'wrong brain for their body'), I was apparently wrong.

A brief skim of a few medical texts that Google coughed up would seem to indicate that gender dysphoria develops well before puberty, in which case perhaps this apparently weird action really does make sense--instead of being traumatized at an early age by "not fitting in", she (he, I guess) could have the opportunity to grow up in a way that feels more natural. And, I suppose, if it really is just a phase (one hopes that they really did get a good medical diagnosis), then she can always go back.

I'm still a little torn, but it doesn't seem to be quite as crazy as it seems at first. And you've certainly got to question the wisdom of the parents sending the kid back to the same school--people with gender issues have enogh trouble as it is, but switching over winter break is practically guaranteed to result in problems unless that is an unbelievably tolerant school.

One also has to wonder how this story even made the news--did the parents go bragging about it, or did the parent of another kid there get so riled up that they went to the media with an oddball story? It'd also be nice if the media outlet that repoprted it had provided even a cursory background on gender dysphoria so it's more than just a curiosity piece.

[vniow]

The amount of misinformation in this thread is staggering.

[wdlove]

The amount of misinformation in this thread is staggering.

Please help us to correct the disinformation vinow. :o

Yes, I had a cousin that was very much a Tom Boy, in dress and actions. Today she is a loving mother.

[stubeeef]

I think that the whole family needs counseling.

Pretty much sums it up.

Don't take offense wdlove, but before I read the article my first guess was Mass. then Oregon, then Southern California. It obviously could have been my nieghborhood, but that was my first best guess.

[ravenvii]

Please help us to correct the disinformation vinow. :o

Yes, I had a cousin that was very much a Tom Boy, in dress and actions. Today she is a loving mother.

OT - hey, her username is vniow, not vinow. ;)

OT (yeah I meant ON topic) - That's a weird thing to do... But I'm sure it'll fix itself once she turns 13ish, hmm? :D

[Mechcozmo]

Yes, some people believe they are meant to be the other gender that they are. But I've never heard of anyone (well, 'till now) that had those thoughts at this age. Usually they start after the kid can do some deep, deep, deep thinking about them self. At that age, the kids actions shouldn't be repressed but not encouraged-- let her wear pants and stuff, but don't encourage the behavior until you really know what's going on. But on the other hand, you don't want to suppress it because that can lead to dissent.

I think the parents are being a bit too abusing of their parental powers. Far easier to just let things to and see what happens then to start plotting out the rest of this kids life as "the girl who had her parents change her to a boy... by accident" or something like that. Well, now that I think/type about it, the parents will either be applauded for their actions or brutally flamed for their actions. In 10 years I bet we see another article on this when the kid can sue the parents if it goes wrong :p.

[virividox]

okay thats messed up...lets just hope that this doesnt screw her up for the rest of her life

[Sun Baked]

The amount of misinformation in this thread is staggering.Sorry, I only got the part where parents with non-functioning brains were trying to force their child into one role or another and really were trusting the doctors. :o

Still don't trust head doctors anyways, they get under my skin.

Plus I don't know if these are the doctors that decide everybody needs drugs, or were willing to help the kid through the problems by talking to him/her.

Not enough info.

---

But one things for sure, you can't always change how the rest of the kids will treat the odd little ones.

[Blue Velvet]

Not enough info.

Here's (http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/03/05/methuen_school_faces_parents_queries_on_students_gender_issue/) an update on this story with a more detailed account of what is actually happening.

It saddens me that people in this thread can be so condemning and judgemental without knowing anything about the issue at all.

[MOFS]

Here's (http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/03/05/methuen_school_faces_parents_queries_on_students_gender_issue/) an update on this story with a more detailed account of what is actually happening.

It saddens me that people in this thread can be so condemning and judgemental without knowing anything about the issue at all.

Absolutely. Even without that article, everyone should know that the kind of decision she took is not one thats going to make it easier for her at school socially and is therefore one that wasn't going to have been made on the spur of the moment...

okay thats messed up...lets just hope that this doesnt screw her up for the rest of her life

:mad: No. Thats the kind of statement that shows my point.

[Mechcozmo]

Here's (http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/03/05/methuen_school_faces_parents_queries_on_students_gender_issue/) an update on this story with a more detailed account of what is actually happening.

It saddens me that people in this thread can be so condemning and judgemental without knowing anything about the issue at all.

Now that we know the second half of the story, so to speak, everything falls into place. Before, it looked like parents that went overboard-- now it looks like they are doing the right thing as well as the school. Good for them.

[rainman::|:|]

It's interesting that the only people that are against this kind of treatment are those that have never dealt with transsexualism or known any transgendered people... And why is that? Could it be that people here are simply afraid of something they know nothing about? No, humans never do that.

Makes me glad none of these people were cavemen when fire was invented.

I feel bad for the child because of the overexposure here. But maybe this will make other parents realize the early signs of transgenderism and respond in better ways than the negative gender-enforcement that happens today.

Likewise, if the parents here were forcing the child to act as a male, it would be gender-enforcement. But they're instead fostering the child in a positive way and I salute that.

[gekko513]

I also find it sad that many people here jumped to the conclusion that these were terrible parents without knowing any details of the case.

It's sad because I assume it must be based on a some notion that all children under normal circumstances will grow up to be an heterosexual of their genetic sex, that any sign of deviance should and can be corrected and that if the child grows up as anything other than heterosexual it is because of bad parents.

This notion is wrong and I think it is unhealthy for the children in question, for the parents and for the society in general.

[Mechcozmo]

It's sad because I assume it must be based on a some notion that all children under normal circumstances will grow up to be an heterosexual of their genetic sex, that any sign of deviance should and can be corrected and that if the child grows up as anything other than heterosexual it is because of bad parents.

I don't have this notion-- in fact, I hadn't ever thought of it before.
It may have to do with the fact that it is considered 'normal' to be heterosexual, but personally any deviance isn't necessarily bad.
Now, if I had kids (which I don't) and they deviated from the normal and started to hurt people or animals physically, then that should be corrected because it isn't good for them to grow up with the notion that harming others is O.K. But deviating towards homosexuality isn't something that is necessarily bad.

Normal is something that everyone has their own interpretation of, because if you want a 'normal' person I am not normal. But I feel normal, sometimes. Thus, normal depends on many things.

Initially, it seemed that the parents were overreacting. Now, it seems they are doing the right thing.

[jywv8]

I just took a test over on the BBC site to determine what "sex" my brain was. Although I'm a male, the BBC says I have a female brain. I don't plan on any sex changes, but it was a very interesting test.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/



That is indeed an interesting test. According to this test, I am a female with a male brain. I'm not surprised.

[DesterWallaboo]

This can be perfectly healthy.

If it's a 'phase' then acknowledging and exploring her gender-dysphoria at that age is far more healthy than suppressing it.

If it's not a phase and puberty brings about increased confusion and self-loathing, then further steps can be taken to correct what is seen and experienced as an unlivable situation.

Your analogy is not at all relevant. Transexualism is not comparable to a species masquerading as another...


You write all of this while drinking your tea in the staff room at some elitest academic university?

[stubeeef]

I am a 44 yr old male in a monogamous 15 yr relationship, but all accounts that british test says I'm female. Oh yea 18 yrs military service.

That is funny.

[Dros]

You write all of this while drinking your tea in the staff room at some elitest academic university?

I had to laugh at the way you tried to mock her. "tea" at an "elitist academic university"? Those are cliches worthy of a political debate! I'm assuming you wrote "elitist academic university" to clarify that she isn't in the staff room of an "elitist vocational university"? :p

[Blue Velvet]

You write all of this while drinking your tea in the staff room at some elitest academic university?

No... in fact, I have had considerable experience working and living with transexuals including some who were in their teens.

Besides, I'm off tea at the moment. Coffee's the thing.
...And I've never been to university.

[Apple!Freak]

Ha... Now wouldn't it be perfect if "he" was gay? It would look perfectly normal. It's a gay that would work in all aspects.

[Blue Velvet]

Ha... Now wouldn't it be perfect if "he" was gay? It would look perfectly normal. It's a gay that would work in all aspects.

No need to put "he" in quotes.

No need to also use the term 'it' when referring to another human being... the term is quite offensive and I think you know it.

[kettle]

No need to put "he" in quotes.

No need to also use the term 'it' when referring to another human being... the term is quite offensive and I think you know it.

yes, but despite your over sensitivities, Apple!Freak has actually made a very good point.

Could someone actually link to the "Science" in this article.

and as far as I'm concerned there is no sense in describing a females brain as a female brain unless it is in the body of a female, regardless of how it is utilised in a neurological respect. visa versa.

[Blue Velvet]

Could someone actually link to the "Science" in this article.

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm

[Chappers]

Of course people jump to conclusions we all do.

[FoxyKaye]

This can be perfectly healthy.

Thank you Blue Velvet! Seriously, I got like five comments into this thread and was ready to launch into a serious tirade that would most certainly get this thread pushed into the political forum. Instead, I read your comment. :)

Jeez folks this is the 21st century, some of the comments on this thread so far are more befitting of the dark ages. :mad:

[FoxyKaye]

It's interesting that the only people that are against this kind of treatment are those that have never dealt with transsexualism or known any transgendered people... And why is that? Could it be that people here are simply afraid of something they know nothing about? No, humans never do that.

[edit]

Likewise, if the parents here were forcing the child to act as a male, it would be gender-enforcement. But they're instead fostering the child in a positive way and I salute that.

Again, thank you Paul. I've been an activist in the Queer communities for more than 15 years, and have watched friends struggle with the very real and difficult issue of being transgendered. My partner works at an LGBT youth organization in San Francisco, and some of the youth who go there have been kicked out of their houses for being gender-variant, LGBT-identified, or otherwise not in conformity with social gender expectations. It is a hard issue, and I wish the parents of all these youth were as accepting and understanding as the parents in this article.

[mpw]

The article says they came to this after consulting with "medical professionals"
…”Hello everybody, I’m Doctor Nick”… ;)

[Dave00]

The problem is not that the girl identifies as a male, and wants to wear male clothing. Experimenting with gender role and clothing is perfectly natural.

The problem is allowing a child to re-assign their gender identity at age 9. The mind of a child, at age 9, can hardly be expected to understand the differences between sex, gender, and sexual orientation. (Many adults, in fact, have alot of trouble identifying the difference - i.e., that transvestites are usually not homosexual.) They've taken a possible positive response - allowing exploration of identity without condemning it - to the extreme, instead actively encouraging a permanent change in identity. This is, in my opinion, just as bad as completely suppressing the experimentation.

The child needs to know that you can have masculine tendencies and still be a girl. Healthy human beings have a mixture of masculine and feminine traits. Some men are more feminine than some women, and some women are more masculine than some men.

This is a great example of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. This little girl is in for a world of hurt. I honestly feel bad for the whole family, and hope they get some better advice.

[mpw]

It never ceases to amaze me what craziness goes on in the world.

Now don’t get me wrong I wouldn’t suggest that there’s anything wrong for a girl to want to be called John or a boy to want to be called Joan as it’s just a name. Likewise if I (male) want to wear a dress I would expect nobody to care, although they may laugh at me just as they might if I wore bright red dungarees to the office or a business suit while trekking through the hills.

But why does this girl or her family expect me to join in with the pretence that she is a boy?

If we are going to accept that male and female should be treated differently (which is an issue in its self) this girl should be treated as that, a girl. By that I mean she gets the same education as all the other children whether male or female, she should get the same opportunities as all the other children whether male or female AND she needs to live by the same social rules as all the other children whether male or female.

She IS a girl and she should use the female bathroom and shower. In the 2nd article linked there’s an explanation that she’ll use her own bathroom at school what about at the weekend when she goes to Burger King with her group of friends?

I know that the medical profession will say there’s a difference between her condition and homosexuality but for the sake of a quick example should gay males use female restrooms and lesbians use the gents? It just doesn’t make sense. If we’re going to blur the differences between the sexes than why not have one bathroom for all? What is so wrong with that?

In my opinion this girl should have been allowed to wear what she wanted, be called what she wanted, the school should’ve been informed of her ‘belief’ that she’s happier with traditionally boy characteristics but continue to live as the female she is. She should be helped to understand that she is female but that it is OK to live her life doing the male things she enjoys, right now that may be toy soldiers, mud and WWF instead of dolls, make-up and ? (sorry don’t know any girls TV). In a few years it could be cars, football and sex with girls instead of clothes, Desperate Housewives and sex with boys.

[Lord Blackadder]

I think few of the people contributing to this discussion could possibly pretend to understand this individual's sense of self and identity, or even the concept of gender identity in general. There are a whole bunch of very smart people who spend their careers working on this and still have discovered only a little about how we become who we are, and why.

For myself, in all honesty my first reaction to the first article was revulsion (Why are her PARENTS doing this to HER), then curiosity because the first article was so incomplete. I didn't have enough info but I felt angry at the parents. It's natural, I suppose, though a little embarassing in retrospect. After reading the second article, it seemed to make a lot of sense. People need to have patience with one another - in these sort of circumstances it is nearly impossible to put oneself in the other's shoes. I sometimes fear and dislike what I don't understand, but when given the opportunity to learn I become more comfortable with and sympathetic to a person who may be very different from myself and what I've been taught is acceptable or normal.

How can people expect to feel or know what this person is feeling? To truly understand the differences between being a man and a woman, I guess you'd have to live one life as each. This youngster is caught in the middle of a struggle for identity and a struggle for acceptance in an unforgiving world. I still don't completely understand it (who does?), but I sympathize and respect his courage and that of the parents. I'd rather have him go with his feelings than live a life fearfully hiding his true self.

[vniow]

It never ceases to amaze me how so many people can form so many strong opinions about things they know next to nothing about.

The problem is allowing a child to re-assign their gender identity at age 9. The mind of a child, at age 9, can hardly be expected to understand the differences between sex, gender, and sexual orientation.

BS.

5. That is the average age at which children who have gender issues knows there's something going on. Its in fact exceedingly rare that one discovers their gender issues later in life. They may not act on them until middle-age but they can remember wanting to be a boy/girl since childhood.

The child needs to know that you can have masculine tendencies and still be a girl. Healthy human beings have a mixture of masculine and feminine traits. Some men are more feminine than some women, and some women are more masculine than some men.

Okay, there's some things that you're getting at here but I'm not sure if you're putting these into the right words. There's a difference between masculine tendencies and wanting to actually be male. Just because one transitions from one gender to another doesn't mean they are going to be stereotypically inclined to be at the same levels that society thinks their masculine/feminine traits should be. As far as MTFs go for example, I'm pretty butch. Dresses and skirts make me uncomfortable and I much prefer suits and ties. I don't have a lot of feminine mannerisms and dress pretty andogynously much of the time. I'm still more femme than not I would say but bust because I'm transitioning to female doesn't mean I'm automatically going to be this femmey straight girl. I'm more of a genderqueer dyke than that any day of the week.

This is a great example of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. This little girl is in for a world of hurt. I honestly feel bad for the whole family, and hope they get some better advice.

*yawn*

It never ceases to amaze me what craziness goes on in the world.

See first line of this post.

But why does this girl or her family expect me to join in with the pretence that she is a boy?

Respect.

If we are going to accept that male and female should be treated differently (which is an issue in its self) this girl should be treated as that, a girl.

This confuses me. See below.

By that I mean she gets the same education as all the other children whether male or female, she should get the same opportunities as all the other children whether male or female AND she needs to live by the same social rules as all the other children whether male or female.

If being treated as a girl (theoretically) means that one will be teated as an equal, then why do you say above that this child should be treated as a girl when as you say here, it doesn't make any difference?

She IS a girl

Wrong.

and she should use the female bathroom and shower. In the 2nd article linked there’s an explanation that she’ll use her own bathroom at school what about at the weekend when she goes to Burger King with her group of friends?

There's a seperate bathroom at school because its actually safer to use than the boys or the girls because trans children often get harrased in either room. In the rest of the world we make comprimises. I really don't give a **** which bathroom I use personally, whichever's closer I guess, depending on what I'm wearing of course.[/quote]

I know that the medical profession will say there’s a difference between her condition and homosexuality but for the sake of a quick example should gay males use female restrooms and lesbians use the gents? It just doesn’t make sense. If we’re going to blur the differences between the sexes than why not have one bathroom for all? What is so wrong with that?

Quite honestly I fail to see the need for seperate places to piss but that's just me.

In my opinion this girl should have been allowed to wear what she wanted, be called what she wanted, the school should’ve been informed of her ‘belief’ that she’s happier with traditionally boy characteristics but continue to live as the female she is. She should be helped to understand that she is female but that it is OK to live her life doing the male things she enjoys, right now that may be toy soldiers, mud and WWF instead of dolls, make-up and ? (sorry don’t know any girls TV). In a few years it could be cars, football and sex with girls instead of clothes, Desperate Housewives and sex with boys.

Ugh, the amount of gender stereotypes in this paragraph makes me want to http://insanetek.com/forums/images/smilies/puke.gif

[vniow]

Thank you Blue Velvet! Seriously, I got like five comments into this thread and was ready to launch into a serious tirade that would most certainly get this thread pushed into the political forum. Instead, I read your comment. :)

Jeez folks this is the 21st century, some of the comments on this thread so far are more befitting of the dark ages. :mad:

Yeah, no kidding. That's why I've shyed away from this thread until now.

My partner works at an LGBT youth organization in San Francisco

Sweet. Which one?

-Ani

[gekko513]

Thanks for joining the thread vniow.

[zelmo]

I think it is sad that any person has to suffer the pain and confusion of not being comfortable in their own skin, or feel ashamed because he or she is not living up to society's expectations of who they are supposed to be.
I applaud the parents and school administrators for their courageous positions in this matter. I just hope that no one is leading this young person down the wrong road.

Being a parent, I will say that I don't want my children to grow up as anything that is considered wildly variant from society's suppressive standards. The reason is simple - I love my children. I will gladly give my life for them. I do not want them to have to suffer the morons who would suppress or harm them, or label them as different out of fear and ignorance. I want my children to have a happy life, with all possibilities open to them. If they are gay, they are gay. That will make me sad, not because I am against gays, but because I know they will be in for some bad treatment from people who are cruel, ignorant, or both.

Why is it so hard for some to accept people and let them live their own life?

[Blue Velvet]

Why is it so hard for some to accept people and let them live their own life?

Because they represent a considerable challenge to people's cosy and simple view of reality, their world-view, by revealing the multi-dimensional aspect of humanity in all its guises.

So when that happens, you either adjust your reactions or lash out.


*Does not compute, does not compute... arrgh*

[neut]

seems like a lot of people in here have worse gender problems than the child in question. when does girl = dress, pink, dolls | boy = pants, blue, Gi Joes?

our classification of boy | girl is really disturbing. my 8yo. daughter recognizes her strong identification with the 'male' way of acting, playing, etc. but she also recognizes what makes her a girl (body physicallity and chemical balance). she's just know starting to accept playing with girl toys. i've never made her wear a dress ... though she will (very occasionally) wear one by choice.

when i was young people called me a cute little girl until i was 5. i had braids ... and that = girl to most people.

i think 'mental problems' are a bigger concern than gender problems. something's wrong when we can accept anyone in this world until we can stick them into a hole ... even ourselves.

good luck with the gender thing people | i wonder if in cultures where their biggest concerns are eating for the day and not dying ... if they have 'gender problems'? if so, do they worry about them so much?

the human race wastes time like they made it up (oh wait, we did) ... nevermind; waste away.


*thanks to vniow and BlueVelvet for the insightful posts.


peace | neut

[Lord Blackadder]

Because they represent a considerable challenge to people's cosy and simple view of reality, their world-view and the multi-dimensional aspect of humanity in all its guises.

So when that happens, you either adjust your reactions or lash out.


*Does not compute, does not compute... arrgh*

I think you will admit that it can be frightening or at least disconcerting to have your worldview challenged. People say a lot of things they probably really don't mean out of ignorance. I'm totally ignorant of how it feels to be anything other than what I am (a straight guy) in the sense that I don't feel what others (non-straight, or non-guy etc. ;) ) feel and that can make it hard to understand them at times. I do what I can with what I've been given, I guess.

I like to hear from the people on this board who are very different from me, because if you guys didn't speak up I would know that much less, and the ignorant man is truly poor. I've seen vniow's and BV's and others' patience demonstrated on numerous occasions, (thank you) and I hope they stay that way; if people don't discuss rationally everything goes to hell in a handbasket, and nobody learns anything useful.

I feel like I'm babbling (ready to go home, and hungry). Sometimes these discussions can really frustrate me.

As an anthropologist by trade, I learned long ago that gender roles are far from universal among human populations, and what constitutes "masculine/feminine" behavior isn't the same from culture to culture. In fact, some cultures change gender roles rather fluidly. Just something to chew on.

[Blue Velvet]

I'm totally ignorant of how it feels to be anything other than what I am (a straight guy) in the sense that I don't feel what others (non-straight, or non-guy etc. ;) ) feel and that can make it hard to understand them at times. I do what I can with what I've been given, I guess...


All it takes is one simple quality: empathy.

People are people. Deep down, everybody has the same hopes and fears about their own lives...

Just stop for a minute and think to yourself 'What would I do if I was like that? How would I feel if I had to walk a mile in their shoes.'

[mpw]

…But why does this girl or her family expect me to join in with the pretence that she is a boy?…

…Respect...

…She IS a girl...

…Wrong...

Biologically she IS a girl, I don’t think that can be disputed; therefore to pretend otherwise is a deception to those she comes into contact with. Although no harm may come of this deception there is a chance that harm may be done, where’s the respect in that. Surely honesty and truthfulness is the best option?

…If we are going to accept that male and female should be treated differently…this girl should be treated as that, a girl…

…This confuses me. See below…

…By that I mean she gets the same education as all the other children whether male or female, she should get the same opportunities as all the other children whether male or female AND she needs to live by the same social rules as all the other children whether male or female…

…If being treated as a girl (theoretically) means that one will be teated as an equal, then why do you say above that this child should be treated as a girl when as you say here, it doesn't make any difference?..

My point here was that I think those of different sexes should be treated equally and that is the view held, I believe, by the vast majority of society. But the same society has decided that there are some instances where sex requires different treatment. Yes I say she should be treated as a girl and yes I imply that this wouldn’t make a difference because that’s what she is. However if you treat this girl as a boy then the equality everyone seeks is out the window.

Same sex marriage is not seen as legal (in the UK at least) should it be allowed just because one of the men wears a dress and calls himself Joan? I don’t think it should. I do however think that two men should be allowed to be legally married as two men, if one or both want to wear dresses and call themselves Joan that’s fine by me.

…Quite honestly I fail to see the need for seperate places to piss but that's just me…

A little off topic but at the moment I’m involved with fitting out a property to be an office. My company has 7 employees, 2 female, because there’s more than 5 people building regulations say we need more than 1 toilet. They assume that everyone might want to go to the toilet together so we’re required to have 2 stalls in each toilet plus 2 urinal in the gents. In addition to that we have to have a disabled toilet for wheelchair users even though it’s a 2nd floor of an old building with no way to get a wheelchair in without carrying it and it’s occupant up three separate flights of stairs. So I agree that it would be great if we could all piss in the same toilet but unfortunately we have to stick to society’s rules.

As for gender stereotypes; I know they’re clumsy but I hope I at least got my point across. ?

[Blue Velvet]

Same sex marriage is not seen as legal (in the UK at least) should it be allowed just because one of the men wears a dress and calls himself Joan? I don’t think it should. I do however think that two men should be allowed to be legally married as two men, if one or both want to wear dresses and call themselves Joan that’s fine by me.


You make light of it... trivialising it and thereby revealing your ignorance.

You can not compare the sheer effort involved in changing your gender to simply donning a piece of clothing. Years of therapy, painful electrolysis, hormonal manipulation, changing all your ID, severing contact with friends and family if necessary, finding a new job etc. Not something done on a whim...

It takes a helluva lot of balls :)

Are you therefore suggesting that post-operative male-to-female transexuals should be jailed in a male prison if they are ever convicted & imprisoned? For instance, a person that looks like this? (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/Tula1s.jpg)

BTW: That's Caroline Cossey, model & Bond-girl.

[mpw]

You make light of it... trivialising it and thereby revealing your ignorance.

You can not compare the sheer effort involved in changing your gender to simply donning a piece of clothing. Years of therapy, painful electrolysis, hormonal manipulation, changing all your ID, severing contact with friends and family if necessary, finding a new job etc. Not something done on a whim...

It takes a helluva lot of balls :)

Are you therefore suggesting that post-operative male-to-female transexuals should be jailed in a male prison if they are ever convicted & imprisoned? For instance, a person that looks like this? URL removed

BTW: That's Caroline Cossey, model & Bond-girl.

I'm not trying to make light of anything. I’m not denying that there is great effort in changing ones physical appearance and undergoing the years of therapy. In an ideal world if that’s what makes one person happy he should be allowed to do that without the need to change ID, sever contact or find a new job etc.

My analogy of the wedding was supposed to show that two people born as male, and therefore are male, who love each other should have the same right to a legally recognized marriage that a ‘traditional’ male/female couple would, however much or little they do to change their appearance. But once married they are two men married.

Post-op convicts is a difficult one; Yes they should be in male prisons because they’re male but I see that this would be a burden on a prison’s resources as they’re, rightly, required to keep the inmates safe. The trouble is the kind of person in prison is often there because they don’t play nice with others at the best of times so you’re going to end up with this person in solitary wherever they go for their own (perceived) safety. Not sure I’ve got an answer to that but what I wouldn’t do is a male to female post-op convict in a women’s prison and deceive the other inmates that she was a women.

[vniow]

Biologically she IS a girl, I don’t think that can be disputed; therefore to pretend otherwise is a deception to those she comes into contact with. Although no harm may come of this deception there is a chance that harm may be done, where’s the respect in that. Surely honesty and truthfulness is the best option?

Biologically, the child is female. That's a big difference between actually being a girl (which is something few people seem to understand).

I also find your description on deception offensive. There is nothing deceptive about this child who is a boy presenting himself in society as one. The respect is calling a person by how they wish to be called, regardless of if you find them deceptive, offensive or disgusting. Its about respect.

And you know what? Its not ****ing safe to be out everywhere, most people I come into contact with just think I'm some chick who may be queer or not or they think I'm a boy (who also may be queer or not) but most people don't know I'm trans. The way people treat you if you're presenting yourself in a way that's waaay outside the gender norms is pretty ******, beleive me and like I said before, its not safe. And I ****ing hate it when you see some show or commercial where this guy was dating this girl and he finds out that she was born male and he's like "OMFG, she's a MAN!!!"

Please.

I'm sorry...oh wait. I'm not, that I insulted your heterosexuality like that and made you think I was something else that what I really am (in the case of the kid in question, a boy) so to think that we're deceiving the rest of society by living as a gender that we feel more comfortable in is quite offensive.

If you don't like it, tough ****.

My point here was that I think those of different sexes should be treated equally and that is the view held, I believe, by the vast majority of society. But the same society has decided that there are some instances where sex requires different treatment. Yes I say she should be treated as a girl and yes I imply that this wouldn’t make a difference because that’s what she is. However if you treat this girl as a boy then the equality everyone seeks is out the window.

I've seen a similar argument among dykes who have accused FTMs like this of being mysoginistic and wanting to acheive male privilige. It didn't hold any weight then and it doesn't now.

When you live in a culture that is so gender binary, there's certain comprimises you have to make if you intend on transitioning from one to the other (or bouncing all over the place like me), bathrooms are one of them for example. Its not considered appropriate for someone who looks like a man to enter a woman's bathroom. Its not considered appropriate for someone who looks like a woman to enter a men's bathroom. Why there are seperate bathrooms based off of a social construct ike this I don't know. But they are and trans people have to deal with that every time they need to piss and they're in a public place.

Being "treated" as a boy or a girl (or whatever) as far as I'm concerned is getting the language right, for example, its no longer appropriate to call the child in the article a girl. He may be female-bodied, but to call him a girl is to call all these people (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TransMen.html) women.

Same sex marriage is not seen as legal (in the UK at least) should it be allowed just because one of the men wears a dress and calls himself Joan? I don’t think it should. I do however think that two men should be allowed to be legally married as two men, if one or both want to wear dresses and call themselves Joan that’s fine by me.

Funny, I can actually get married to someone who was born female in California. I can also get married to someone who was born male. The reason is because It is legal in the UK actually for someone to marry someone opposite than their birth sex. I remember because there were some lawsuits a year or so ago about trans people who wanted to marry someone who was the same birth sex as them and were getting denied. So regardless of how you feel about trans/gay marriage its already happening. As it should, regardless of gender. Period.

As for gender stereotypes; I know they’re clumsy but I hope I at least got my point across. ?

You got your point across fine, but that doesn't make you any more informed or respectful.

[vniow]

Not sure I’ve got an answer to that but what I wouldn’t do is a male to female post-op convict in a women’s prison and deceive the other inmates that she was a women.

Offensive.

[Makosuke]

Very interesting FtM photo gallery, vniow; thanks for the link. The same site has a number of interesting MtF photos as well.

Although there are (and probably will always be, regardless of the subject) some people here who hold unreasonable or willfully uninformed opinions, I think a lot of the people here reacted as I did originally based on the original, very bad, article, versus the latter one, which explains things better.

I'd like to use this to hilite the effect an uninformed or negligent media can have on public opinion:

The initial story said little more than that a girl got changed to a boy by her parents over the winter break. The initial assumption for those of us who know little about transgender issues and the science behind them is to assume that these are parents jumping to conclusions or making a mistake, since surely these things can't come out until someone has undergone puberty and spent a lot of time as an adult thinking. This is irresponsible on the part of the newspaper, since it gives us no information other than the "curiosity" aspect of the story.

The second article is significantly more useful; although still lacking a bit of scientific background, it explains the situation and the medical diagnosis in more detail, and also illustrates the concerns of the parents about their child's life becoming a circus thanks to media ignorance. All it really takes is somebody pointing out that, scientifically, transgendered folk generally know when they're very young, and in this case that the parents apparently made sure this was the case, so there's really no problem with what's going on here.

Basically, when we assume that the media is going to give us the pertinent facts and it does not, we end up basing our opinions on ignorance and emotional reflex. It's a mistake, and this has reinforced to me more than anything I've seen recently how hurtful bad reporting can be, not to mention that I personally should be more careful in forming an opinion on what I've read.

I'd also like to point out that it's not like they're putting the kid through gender reassignment surgery yet--I assume he'll get to make that decision later in life. They're just trying to let him live in a way that is comfortable.

What is with gender-segregated bathrooms, anyway? Where I work we all share one, and I just don't see the issue.

[gekko513]

Biologically she IS a girl, I don’t think that can be disputed; therefore to pretend otherwise is a deception to those she comes into contact with. Although no harm may come of this deception there is a chance that harm may be done, where’s the respect in that. Surely honesty and truthfulness is the best option?
Why must it be that the genetic gender is the unquestionable definition of a person's gender. The gender issue is a lot more complicated than that. There are genetic, hormonal, physical and mental aspects to it and in the end, what I think matters is the gender identity the person himself/herself develops as a result of processing his/her own feelings.

What kind of harm do you fear will come of the "deception".

Is it the chance that if this child grows up to become a man that a woman will fall in love with him and then get hurt when she finds out that they can't have children? A man that was born gentically and physically a male can also be infertile and I don't think it is considered necessary to bring this up on the first date to prevent harm.

Is it the chance that a woman will find him unsuitable as a partner because he wasn't born a man, and the thought makes him less attractive? That can probably happen, considering the diverse opinions we see here on the forum. There are lots of other issues that will be revealed during a relationship between two people, facts about the past, personality, bad habits, health conditions and other traits that can make such a difference to one part that the relationship can't go on. I think it would be disrespectful to not be open about yourself on all areas when a relationship gets serious, but it is not deception to not carry a sign from the beginning that lists all areas where you differ from the vision of an ideal partner. There is also the chance that two people will continue to strengthen their attraction, affection and love as they get to know each other better, even if one of them is transsexual.

Maybe you didn't mean any of these things? What kind of harm are you thinking about?

[vniow]

Funny, I can actually get married to someone who was born female in California. I can also get married to someone who was born male. The reason is because It is legal in the UK actually for someone to marry someone opposite than their birth sex.


Oops, didn't quite finish this part. I meant to say the reason is because California goes by government issued identification, like a drivers liscense, ID card or a passport. Here in this state we have a little form called the DL328 in which trans people can get their gender changed as well as the name with a note from a medical doctor. Passports on the other hand go by your birth certificate and require a court order for a name change and a letter from your surgeon for a gender one. So if I were to get a passport, I could marry someone who was of the opposite birth sex (as far as that ID goes) as I was if I presented that to a court to get married. If I presented my drivers liscense on the other hand, I could only marry someone who has the opposite ID as mine which is different from the passport ID.

Laws are fickle that way.

And I like to keep my options open.

[Mechcozmo]

For myself, in all honesty my first reaction to the first article was revulsion (Why are her PARENTS doing this to HER), then curiosity because the first article was so incomplete. I didn't have enough info but I felt angry at the parents. It's natural, I suppose, though a little embarassing in retrospect. After reading the second article, it seemed to make a lot of sense.

Same feelings here.

Because they represent a considerable challenge to people's cosy and simple view of reality, their world-view, by revealing the multi-dimensional aspect of humanity in all its guises.

So when that happens, you either adjust your reactions or lash out.
Don't recall this ever happening. Well, there was this one time, in the 1940s, some dude named Adolf really did a good job at adjusting the world.
Only problem? He took humanity in all its guises and tried to reduce it to one, flat, image. Did a damn good job at it though, neat, clean, and efficient.

Biologically, the child is female. That's a big difference between actually being a girl (which is something few people seem to understand).

Using a rather cool Applescript, I got these definitions... and I'm now confuzzled...
"female" wn "WordNet (r) 2.0"
female
adj 1: being the sex (of plant or animal) that produces
fertilizable gametes (ova) from which offspring
develop; "a female heir"; "female holly trees bear the
berries" [ant: {androgynous}, {male}]
2: characteristic of or peculiar to a woman; "female
sensitiveness"; "female suffrage" [syn: {distaff}]
3: for or composed of women or girls; "the female lead in the
play"; "a female chorus"
n 1: an animal that produces gametes (ova) that can be fertilized
by male gametes (spermatozoa) [ant: {male}]
2: a person who belongs to the sex that can have babies [syn: {female
person}] [ant: {male}]

"girl" wn "WordNet (r) 2.0"
girl
n 1: a young woman; "a young lady of 18" [syn: {miss}, {missy}, {young
lady}, {young woman}, {fille}]
2: a youthful female person; "the baby was a girl"; "the girls
were just learning to ride a tricycle" [syn: {female child},
{little girl}] [ant: {male child}, {male child}]
3: a female human offspring; "her daughter cared for her in her
old age" [syn: {daughter}] [ant: {son}, {son}]
4: a girl or young woman with whom a man is romantically
involved; "his girlfriend kicked him out" [syn: {girlfriend},
{lady friend}]
5: a friendly informal reference to a grown woman; "Mrs. Smith
was just one of the girls"

I'm one of these people that don't seem to understand. "2: a youthful female person" is listed as a definition for "girl" so doesn't that mean that a girl is a female? And it says "3: for or composed of women or girls" as a definition for "female" which leads us back to 'girl'. So.... is a girl a youthful female?
:confused: Care to help me out? Just trying to understand... :confused:

[mactastic]

Biologically, the child is female. That's a big difference between actually being a girl (which is something few people seem to understand).

I also find your description on deception offensive. There is nothing deceptive about this child who is a boy presenting himself in society as one. The respect is calling a person by how they wish to be called, regardless of if you find them deceptive, offensive or disgusting. Its about respect.

And you know what? Its not ****ing safe to be out everywhere, most people I come into contact with just think I'm some chick who may be queer or not or they think I'm a boy (who also may be queer or not) but most people don't know I'm trans. The way people treat you if you're presenting yourself in a way that's waaay outside the gender norms is pretty ******, beleive me and like I said before, its not safe. And I ****ing hate it when you see some show or commercial where this guy was dating this girl and he finds out that she was born male and he's like "OMFG, she's a MAN!!!"

Please.

I'm sorry...oh wait. I'm not, that I insulted your heterosexuality like that and made you think I was something else that what I really am (in the case of the kid in question, a boy) so to think that we're deceiving the rest of society by living as a gender that we feel more comfortable in is quite offensive.

If you don't like it, tough ****.



I've seen a similar argument among dykes who have accused FTMs like this of being mysoginistic and wanting to acheive male privilige. It didn't hold any weight then and it doesn't now.

When you live in a culture that is so gender binary, there's certain comprimises you have to make if you intend on transitioning from one to the other (or bouncing all over the place like me), bathrooms are one of them for example. Its not considered appropriate for someone who looks like a man to enter a woman's bathroom. Its not considered appropriate for someone who looks like a woman to enter a men's bathroom. Why there are seperate bathrooms based off of a social construct ike this I don't know. But they are and trans people have to deal with that every time they need to piss and they're in a public place.

Being "treated" as a boy or a girl (or whatever) as far as I'm concerned is getting the language right, for example, its no longer appropriate to call the child in the article a girl. He may be female-bodied, but to call him a girl is to call all these people (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TransMen.html) women.



Funny, I can actually get married to someone who was born female in California. I can also get married to someone who was born male. The reason is because It is legal in the UK actually for someone to marry someone opposite than their birth sex. I remember because there were some lawsuits a year or so ago about trans people who wanted to marry someone who was the same birth sex as them and were getting denied. So regardless of how you feel about trans/gay marriage its already happening. As it should, regardless of gender. Period.


Hear hear.... The transgender folks I've known have always had a rough time of it, even from the rest of the LGB community. The question of which bathroom to use comes up all the time, and you know what? It's just not that important. If you're looking like a woman, use the women's restroom. If you're looking like a guy, use the men's. If you aren't a pervert trying to score some cheap peeks in the opposite sex's bathroom by pretending to be TV - WHO CARES? Close the stall, do your business, and be on your way. No one will know!

And in all honesty which bathroom to use is such a small part of the trans world. The other aspects of life are much weightier. Do you come out to a potential date right away? If you do, you're open to being accused of 'promoting your sexuality' and if you don't you run the risk of being accused of 'hiding' some big secret. Do you sever all ties when you make the change, or do you ride out the confusion (at best) and hatred from those who don't understand.

People have come a long way towards accepting homo or bi sexuality, but for the tranny's in a lot of ways it might as well be the dark ages still.

They're not doing this for $***s and giggles. This can be a matter of life and death for them.

[vniow]

I'm one of these people that don't seem to understand. "2: a youthful female person" is listed as a definition for "girl" so doesn't that mean that a girl is a female? And it says "3: for or composed of women or girls" as a definition for "female" which leads us back to 'girl'. So.... is a girl a youthful female?
:confused: Care to help me out? Just trying to understand... :confused:

The difference is that female is usually used when referring to someone by their body parts, ie. a female is someone with breasts and a vagina. Girl or woman is a social construct that's not so much based off of physicality (although in some cultures, a woman has gone through puberty when a girl hasn't but even those aren't consistent) and based off of how you're perceived in society. For instance the child in the article, if he were to go on testosterone in a few years or so, chances are that most people will perceive him to be a young boy since testosterone is pretty powerful and works quickly. (the facial hair and the deep voice will be a dead giveaway) Even though chances are he won't get any surgery, physically he'll be a female (female in the sense of breasts and vagina) although with a level of testosterone which is similar to a non-trans teenage boy which enables him to blend in as a young boy in society.

Things like this are here from birth, many people will ask a prospective or current parent if their child is a boy or a girl. Few people will say that the child is a man or a woman however because they mean different things. People will treat boys and girls differently, even from infancy and that's the funny part. I remember reading something awhile back where this group (of student I think) would dress male babies in traditionally girls clothing and females in traditionally boys clothing. And the people that were introduced to the infants would treat them differently. The "boys" would be treated like they were stronger and tougher and were more susceptible to being played with in a more physical fashion. As a contrast, the "girls" were treated like they were cuter and gentler and would be played with more softly. That's how female and girl differ.

[Lord Blackadder]

All it takes is one simple quality: empathy.

People are people. Deep down, everybody has the same hopes and fears about their own lives...

Just stop for a minute and think to yourself 'What would I do if I was like that? How would I feel if I had to walk a mile in their shoes.'

That is what I'm trying to express (perhaps a bit clumsily), with the caveat that it DOES require adjustment. Sometimes I'm not as empathetic as I should be, or slow in realizing how I've made a quick judgement because something challenges my worldview. Even an anthropologist can be slow on the uptake; I am after all still a product of my society to some extent (I've always been taught that knowing my bias makes it easier to reduce or compensate for than trying to ignore it). And that society is not always very accepting. I hope you don't think I'm harsh.

When I first learned that a few of my friends were gay/lesbian, I was a little uncomfortable and felt out of place. I told them this, and how I felt embarrassed about telling them. They appreciated my honesty, and knew that I was not bringing it up to be hurtful. We discussed our ideas about what homosexuality is, no spin, and I felt like I understood them much more. After a short while it ceased to be an issue; I realized that neither they nor I understood why they were gay, but it didn't make them any more or less of a person to me. We had far more in common anyway. But I needed their empathy, and they were generous enough to feel it. I know it sounds backwards, but that's how it played out.

[zelmo]

That is what I'm trying to express (perhaps a bit clumsily), with the caveat that it DOES require adjustment. Sometimes I'm not as empathetic as I should be, or slow in realizing how I've made a quick judgement because something challenges my worldview. Even an anthropologist can be slow on the uptake; I am after all still a product of my society to some extent (I've always been taught that knowing my bias makes it easier to reduce or compensate for than trying to ignore it). And that society is not always very accepting. I hope you don't think I'm harsh.

When I first learned that a few of my friends were gay/lesbian, I was a little uncomfortable and felt out of place. I told them this, and how I felt embarrassed about telling them. They appreciated my honesty, and knew that I was not bringing it up to be hurtful. We discussed our ideas about what homosexuality is, no spin, and I felt like I understood them much more. After a short while it ceased to be an issue; I realized that neither they nor I understood why they were gay, but it didn't make them any more or less of a person to me. We had far more in common anyway. But I needed their empathy, and they were generous enough to feel it. I know it sounds backwards, but that's how it played out.

Actually, that doesn't sound backwards at all to me.

[Mechcozmo]

'How would I feel if I had to walk a mile in their shoes.'

Well, my feet would hurt because their shoes are much different than mine and they would be pretty angry because I just stole their shoes and walked a mile in them.

:rolleyes: :D ;)

[mpw]

…Biologically, the child is female. That's a big difference between actually being a girl (which is something few people seem to understand)…

I’m sorry but I think it’s generally accepted that ‘girl’ is reference to a young female and that ‘woman’ is reference to an older female as ‘boy’ is a young male and ‘man’ an older male. I’m not saying that for whatever psychological or chemical reason some males don’t act in ways ‘traditionally’ (for want of using the word ‘normally’) associated with females or that when they do there’s anything wrong with that.

I don’t want to offend anyone but I’m not about to start referring to males as girls or women because of how they behave or look depending on age I’ll refer to them as boys or men, assuming I know they’re male. If I’ve no reason to ask there’s little problem but if I ask or am in a situation where it may have bearing I think someone who is male should be honest and not claim anything but that.

Would the transsexual / politically correct proponents have us start using phrases like male-man and female-man?

That it’s not safe to be out everywhere is a sad reflection on society and I can’t understand why anyone would want to harm someone for how they choose to live their lives if it doesn’t impact on them and even where it does impact violence is usually un-called for

…If you don't like it, tough ****…

Democracy in action.

..Funny, I can actually get married to someone who was born female in California... …

From my understanding this isn’t because same sex marriage is allowed but because you can change your gender on the paperwork. I think that’s a bit of a cop-out. If two people want to enter into a legal marriage contract it should be on the basis that it’s what both parties want (obviously age restrictions etc. would still apply) not whether they complete a set of two sexes either physically or on paper.

[mactastic]

Would the transsexual / politically correct proponents have us start using phrases like male-man and female-man?

No, just call the person what they want to be called. If they want you to call them a female, just do it. How does it affect you to do otherwise?

Have you ever had a person close to you change their name? Do you refuse to call them by their new name because it's how you see them? Or do you do them the courtesy of calling them by what they wish to go by?

And if you can get past calling someone by a new name, why not get past calling them a new sex?

[neut]

... i think the penis will eventually fall off. vniow should run for office.


peace | neut

[rainman::|:|]

gotta love the guy who's saying that it's a cop-out to not be able to get married to my partner of 4 years because it's not legal... At least, that's what I took from that... For the record, no one is out there changing their gender to skirt same-sex marriage laws, at least that I'm aware of... Physical gender (the kind that you can change, in other words) is totally independent of sexual orientation (in the sense that people of both orientations can be transsexuals)... I think that's a point lost on you. Another is that emotional gender-- the hard-wired kind, I suppose-- is also independent of physical gender, a female can be born with male sex organs or even an entire male body, it's not nearly as uncommon as you'd think. Hell, it's estimated that 1-4% of people exhibit some form of intersexed or androgenous genitalia (how long can a clitoris be before it's a penis? 1 inch? 3 inches? Ever wonder? Ever even consider that it could be an issue?). Nature doesn't seem to worry about QC on getting all the parts and systems meshing, it's just humans that assume appearances dictate everything. And for some bizarre reason, when we can't see the gender disparity in a person, we attack them for seeking recovery.

And this is 2005.

[vniow]

I can’t understand why anyone would want to harm someone for how they choose to live their lives if it doesn’t impact on them and even where it does impact violence is usually un-called for

Tough ****.

It happens. (http://rememberingourdead.org/)

BTW, this is my last post in response to you, mpw. You obviously are not capable of being empathetic or refuse to so you are no longer worth holding an argument with.

Tough ****.

-Ani

[mpw]

gotta love the guy who's saying that it's a cop-out to not be able to get married to my partner of 4 years because it's not legal... At least, that's what I took from that... .

What I was saying was that the legislators are copping-out not those that want to get legal recognition of their marriage.

To not allow two people of the same sex who want to get married marry seems unfair to me, but it seems strange that it then becomes allowed if one of those people change their appearance.

...Physical gender (the kind that you can change, in other words) is totally independent of sexual orientation (in the sense that people of both orientations can be transsexuals)...I think that's a point lost on you.

Not really sure why you would think that point would be lost on me.

…Another is that emotional gender-- the hard-wired kind, I suppose-- is also independent of physical gender, a female can be born with male sex organs or even an entire male body…

So what should we be doing when people are born record them as sexless until they’re old enough to make that decision themselves? Why do parents assume just because their child has a penis and testicals when born that they should raise them with a male name and call them a boy? Think of the physiological damage that could do should they turn out to be female.

Is it not straight forward to say that those born with male bodies are male and those with female are female most competent medical doctors should be able to be considered learned enough to make this distinction.

Once the persons “emotional gender” and other characteristics becomes apparent to them they should then be allowed to choose to live their life how they want and call them selves by any name they want but I don’t believe this changes the fact that they are either male or female. By all means change your body anyway you want if it makes you happy but I think that the sex recorded when you’re born should be your legal sex for life and that that shouldn’t make any difference to who you can marry etc. I agree the two things are independent (physical and emotional gender) that’s what I’m saying that it should be accepted you can be male but ‘choose’ to ‘act’ ( I know it’s neither a choice or an act) as though what the vast majority would deem to be a women. I agree there should be no stigma in this but I think that for society to have rules facts need to remain constant.

If someone is born 16years ago in the UK they can’t drink or drive. However should they be able to argue that they are emotionally much older than their physical years by say two years allowing them these privileges in society? What about their friend who’s 18years old but acts emotionally like a 16year old should he be banned from these activities?

People need to accept what they are and then live their life how they want.

To quote others more eloquent than me.

…If you don't like it, tough ****…

or

…Tough ****…

or

…Tough ****…

Understanding and compelling argument, nice to see someone open to change.