Racial Segregation in Schools the way Forward?

[mpw]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4326007.stm

...Trevor Phillips, head of the Commission for Racial Equality, suggested they might benefit from such a move, which had been tested in the United States...

I couldn't see this being discussed elsewhere in the forums but thought it might be of interest.

Does anybody think this would actually have been a good idea, and if so why?

Seemed doomed to failure when I first heard about it a few days ago.

[Applespider]

Looking at it from its most positive angle, it may help Afro-Caribbean kids be more comfortable in the classroom, less disruptive and develop more self esteem. It's been shown in the past that girls and boys learn better in a segregated atmosphere in certain classes. Who's to say that different cultures don't learn better when separated in certain classes?

From its most negative angle, I can see exactly why this could be a disaster. Schools would have to be very careful that both 'white' and Afro-Caribbean' classes had teachers of the same standard to avoid charges of racism.

I'd think it was very important though to ensure that the school as a whole was fully integrated in its social activities and other classes

[Blue Velvet]

What about kids of mixed parentage?
Does that mean getting into a ridiculous apartheid-type situation where if you're not quite dark enough, you're coloured?

What about the Afro-Carribean boys who are doing perfectly well at school?

Why not address the issue of children who are not fullfilling their potential through education rather than making it a race issue?

[rainman::|:|]

This debate has hit the gay community as well, with the Harvey Milk school for gays/perceived gays (yeah, they do have straight people, but not many)... Should the protection and feelings of security take precedent over social integration? Can we force kids to be on the "front lines", so to speak? What would such a move do to the community, how might it alienate the population affected, and how are they treated now. Tough questions, but I'm glad they're at least exploring the options. While I doubt such segregation could ever be a long-term solution, it may be helpful in particular areas for short periods of time... then again, it may make things worse there... :confused:

[MOFS]

What about kids of mixed parentage?
Does that mean getting into a ridiculous apartheid-type situation where if you're not quite dark enough, you're coloured?

What about the Afro-Carribean boys who are doing perfectly well at school?

Why not address the issue of children who are not fullfilling their potential through education rather than making it a race issue?

Absoulutely. What about if there's a really bright Afro-Carribean boy in this hypothetical segregated class (a real possibility)? Does this kid get bumped into the "white" (goodness knows I hate that word - of European origin?) class - or is this an excuse just to separate.

In my opinion, its just lazy decision making. If kids aren't performing well, separate them into sets, where they can get specialised teaching to their ability - regardless of their gender, race etc. I still believe that part of this problem is exacerbated by the lack of school sports facilities causing problems for boys at school in particular.

[brap]

But Shahid Malik, chairman of the Labour Party's ethnic minority forum and a former CRE commissioner, said "many African-Caribbean people would feel it was a debate whose time had come".Obviously the defeat of apartheid (for but one example) had no symbolic effect on this joker.Speaking on BBC's Inside Out programme Mr Phillips had also suggested black fathers not living with their sons should be denied access to them if they refused to attend parents' evenings.How is this a racial issue? There are plenty of bad white parents, too.And he called for more male black teachers, tempting them with extra cash if necessary.Equal opportunities my arse. If this goes through there should be outrage of the same calibre as if it were ethnicity-reversed.

[PlaceofDis]

i thought that there was no such thing as race? unless of course you are defining it as different cultures.....in which case there would have to be a lot of schools created for each culture.....

there is nothing genetically different in people, just mindsets that are different and this would only re-enforce those mindsets, which aren't very good in my opinion in the first place.....

[angelneo]

The first friend I meet when a 6 year old me first start going to school was an indian. He remained my best friend until we got separated to different schools 6 years later and we lost contact. I remembered asking him to teach me a few Tamil for conversational purpose which I can still recalled. I remembered I had a fun "arch-nemesis" relationship with one of my malay friend. I remembered that skin colour wasn't even an issue when I was that young, everyone looks the same to me. It wasn't until much later that I formed perception about different race. Why should we force segregation onto children at such an young age?

[iSaint]

I think I'd rather see seperate male/female classrooms. Keep all the hormones seperated for awhile.

[PlaceofDis]

I think I'd rather see seperate male/female classrooms. Keep all the hormones seperated for awhile.

i went to an all boys catholic high school, and i think it helped some of us focus, but not all, it works well in some areas, but fails in others

a lot of the guys i went to school with ended up not being the best when it came to social interaction with girls, same with the girls who whent to all girls schools.....

[crazytom]

I think I'd rather see seperate male/female classrooms. Keep all the hormones seperated for awhile.

I have to agree with this! Help keep kids minds on what's important: learning, not impressing the opposite sex. I'd also promote some kind of uniform (blue pants/ white shirt + tie). It's crazy how many poor kids (of any race) come to school wearing a $300 pair of Air Jordan's when their family can't afford basic phone service.

[PlaceofDis]

I have to agree with this! Help keep kids minds on what's important: learning, not impressing the opposite sex. I'd also promote some kind of uniform (blue pants/ white shirt + tie). It's crazy how many poor kids (of any race) come to school wearing a $300 pair of Air Jordan's when their family can't afford basic phone service.

very true about the uniform, although i think a strict dress code would be sufficent. That way there is some leeway in what you get to wear, some self espression, that helps people develop themselves, but at the same times keeps things nice neat, and orderly

my hs for example had a dress code that said we had to have dress shoes, dress pants, and a collard shirt tucked in, belt if neccessary, no logos, cleanly shaven and hair style....

[vniow]

I think I'd rather see seperate male/female classrooms. Keep all the hormones seperated for awhile.

Where would kids like this (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=113751) be placed then?

[JeffTL]

i thought that there was no such thing as race? unless of course you are defining it as different cultures.....in which case there would have to be a lot of schools created for each culture.....

there is nothing genetically different in people, just mindsets that are different and this would only re-enforce those mindsets, which aren't very good in my opinion in the first place.....

Race as it is generally understood in modern times is really just some make-believe cooked up by 19th century bigoted protoanthropologists who couldn't quite get their heads around ethnic diversity, and so they decided to be racialists...and racists.

As far as trying to help anyone is concerned, you're better off looking at class -- throw race out the window and you're left with ethnicity (generally irrelevant for non-immigrants), social class (hard to measure), and economic class (relatively easy to measure). By what should we measure? The latter.

Rich people often, though by no means always, do better in school than poor people.

[mpw]

Glad to see the general opinion from everyone is that this is a bad idea. I couldn’t believe it had been seriously suggested by anyone let alone someone in that position. I wonder if this story would have got more press if it was a white politician suggesting that all white classes would benefit the white children?

That’s not to say that the idea wouldn’t work, I think it probably would help any specific group to pass an exam if that group were separated and tutored in a specific way to meet their needs to pass a specific exam. But is that the idea of school exams?

I believe that everyone should be taught together using the same curriculum. I’d split classes by ability only so that slower learners don’t get left behind or quick learners sit waiting for the lesson to move on.

[Savage Henry]

I'm a bit cloudy on the subject here, but should the remit of the Commission for Racial Equality be one of improving 'equality' rather than the increasing of segregation? This could come back to haunt Trevor Phillips if he personalises this too much.

[miloblithe]

Where would kids like this (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=113751) be placed then?

Reality does tend to complicate neat little plans.

[MongoTheGeek]

Where would kids like this (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=113751) be placed then?

She would be placed in a girls classroom.

[MongoTheGeek]

Reality does tend to complicate neat little plans.

I would say that complicate little plans tend to interfere with reality.

[Lyle]

Why not address the issue of children who are not fullfilling their potential through education rather than making it a race issue?I think that sums up my feelings on the issue, so I won't add to that.

I am a little curious about where this approach has been tested in the U.S. (as is claimed in the article).

[camobag]

Implementing racial segregation would further the distinction between blacks and whites. That distinction would further racism. Forcing young white children to go to "white schools" and black children to theirs would send the message that blacks and whites are so different that they can't learn or work together. Imagine growing up in such a school. You don't have to look far, just in our history books (to paraphrase: "it didn't go well"). We are all Americans and humans and should send the message to the next generation that we are all in this together. Although we are different, that doesn't mean that we should have separate schools for black children and white children. Integrating schools was a great step for America and has made a direct blow to racism and should be continued to further a united, peaceful community.

[crazytom]

<snip> Forcing young white children to go to "white schools" and black children to theirs would send the message that blacks and whites are so different that they can't learn or work together. Imagine growing up in such a school. </snip>

I live in a community that is just the opposite. There are geographical locations that have high concentrations of whites and blacks. The communities solution: spend mass amounts of money to bus kids all over the town to even out the racial profile of the schools. There's kids that live 2 blocks from a school (sometimes they WANT to attend that school) and they are being bussed 5 miles to another school just to make the politically correct happy....the way I see it, they're being forced to go to another school BECAUSE they're black or white. It's absurd.

[camobag]

I live in a community that is just the opposite. There are geographical locations that have high concentrations of whites and blacks. The communities solution: spend mass amounts of money to bus kids all over the town to even out the racial profile of the schools. There's kids that live 2 blocks from a school (sometimes they WANT to attend that school) and they are being bussed 5 miles to another school just to make the politically correct happy....the way I see it, they're being forced to go to another school BECAUSE they're black or white. It's absurd.

You missed my point. My point was that children should not be forced to go to a school because of their race. I do not believe that if there is an all white school (by chance or just the makeup of the community) that the school district is inherently racist. A school district that does not allow children of a certain race into their school because of their race is unacceptable--which was the issue I was addressing. Politically correct or not, segregation on the basis of race is unacceptable.

[vniow]

She would be placed in a girls classroom.

I would say that complicate little plans tend to interfere with reality.

Gotta love this binary thinking here.

[plastique45]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4326007.stm



I couldn't see this being discussed elsewhere in the forums but thought it might be of interest.

Does anybody think this would actually have been a good idea, and if so why?

Seemed doomed to failure when I first heard about it a few days ago.

Yeah, and I think Ethnic Cleansing would also help spruce up the economy...

[MongoTheGeek]

Gotta love this binary thinking here.

Thank you.

[Pismo]

I can't believe this crap is still being talked about and is still a problem. People should never be judged on the color of their skin and kids should not be segregated in schools based on that.

The only segregation that should take place is keeping the troubled kids in a different school. They need special attention and can be a distraction when mixed with kids who don't have social/learning dissabilities. If you went to a public school, you'll know what I mean.

[crazytom]

The problem comes in when a group of students fail and they just ~happen~ to be of a certain ethnicity....then what? Someone's gonna scream racism...More often than not, this does happen. Mainly it's socio-economic, but even that can follow lines of race. The best thing the education system could do would be to quit looking at race...for any reason.

[Nickygoat]

The problem comes in when a group of students fail and they just ~happen~ to be of a certain ethnicity....then what? Someone's gonna scream racism...More often than not, this does happen. Mainly it's socio-economic, but even that can follow lines of race. The best thing the education system could do would be to quit looking at race...for any reason.
not always. Trevor Philips is trying to understand why male afro/caribbean students do far worse educationally than other ethnic minorities - including female afro caribbeans. Shouting racism isn't the answer. In the UK most ethnic minority students (Asian, South East Asian) do far better than the "indigenous" population. They, in turn do better than afro caribbean males but not females. Studies have shown that mixed sex classes underperform compared to single sex, regardless of ethnicity, but in whatever situation afro caribbean boys are the worst off. Anything that can remedy that situation must be considered. Having said that, I think this isn't the way forward. The UK education system is in a complete mess and anything that will improve standards must be looked at. And not via the current way - lowering all the pass marks and praising how many kids have "excelled". Just my 2p

[crazytom]

<snip>
Anything that can remedy that situation must be considered.
<snip>


Heh, heh. Just don't adopt the US "Leave No Child Behind" shell game: a student fails, the school loses funding, the child gets passed to another school where they will more than likely fail again.

I think if the education system is going to be fixed, we cannot look at age or race. The way to educate would be to have 'levels' of each subject matter and do away with a grade level that is tied to age. Each child would be required to reach a certain level, but would also be allowed to quickly advance through levels that are easily learned. For example, there would be Levels 1-25 of math. A child would only be allowed to advance to the next Math level once they proved proficiency. In a 'Math 10' class, there could be children between the ages of 10 and 15. A child could be at math 10, history 5, art 25, reading 8...there'd be no stigma of holding the child back a grade if he/she missed in one subject...they'd only have to take that subject until they prove proficiency.

We need to make school more like the real world: how many times have you socially dealt with people that were all your age? (outside of school) I agree with Nickygoat in that we can't lower the standards to get a better passing rate...but with a multi-level system, the pitfall (to our politicians) is there's no real way to test a demographic of students to see how they're doing on the whole....it could only be individual achievement---to be overseen by the most important people: the parents.

[mpw]

....We are all Americans and humans...

I'll go with we're all human, but Americans?

[mpw]

...I think if the education system is going to be fixed, we cannot look at age or race. The way to educate would be to have 'levels' of each subject matter and do away with a grade level that is tied to age. Each child would be required to reach a certain level, but would also be allowed to quickly advance through levels that are easily learned. For example, there would be Levels 1-25 of math. A child would only be allowed to advance to the next Math level once they proved proficiency. In a 'Math 10' class, there could be children between the ages of 10 and 15. A child could be at math 10, history 5, art 25, reading 8...there'd be no stigma of holding the child back a grade if he/she missed in one subject...they'd only have to take that subject until they prove proficiency.

We need to make school more like the real world: how many times have you socially dealt with people that were all your age? (outside of school) I agree with Nickygoat in that we can't lower the standards to get a better passing rate...but with a multi-level system, the pitfall (to our politicians) is there's no real way to test a demographic of students to see how they're doing on the whole....it could only be individual achievement---to be overseen by the most important people: the parents...

I kind of like that idea. Not one I can remember hearing before.

[PlaceofDis]

your ideas are of course very well crazytom, and i agree with them, it would be the fair and balanced system that would actually work well. However, that would require a total overhaul of the education system as we know it, so it will never happen sadly education doesnt get the funding it needs as it is, and why am i going into education? i sometimes question that ....

[crazytom]

your ideas are of course very well crazytom, and i agree with them, it would be the fair and balanced system that would actually work well. However, that would require a total overhaul of the education system as we know it, so it will never happen sadly education doesnt get the funding it needs as it is, and why am i going into education? i sometimes question that ....

It WOULD NOT require a total overhaul of the system. The only change to the current system would be a typical "sixth grade" math teacher would not be teaching math to just sixth grade aged students, but to a wide mix of ages. Don't get me wrong, there would have to be some changes, but I'd say that they'd be far from a total overhaul. On the other hand, it will never happen because government would lose power over the situation...power is never relinquished volutarily.

I applaud your going into education, PlaceofDis. My wife is a teacher (no, she didn't give me the independent-level idea, but I did run it by her...she told me that some charter schools are running with the idea.) and she has some very rough times and some success stories, too. I don't know of anyone who goes into education for the money--unless you're in a major (rich) suburb. Teachers are definitely on the front lines...they have to deal with ALL of the BS - from students, administration, and parents! Teachers deserve all the respect and get none of it. Students are beligerent, parents are obnoxious, and administration is uncaring....not all are, but the numbers are growing. In fact, at the local middle school, some PARENTS have orders to stay off of school grounds because they've physically threatened teachers and staff.... :eek: Sorry to rant....I'm done....

[camobag]

No offense mpw. Just got a little patriotic. :)

[jsalzer]

I'll go with we're all human, but Americans?

Hold it - hold it - you mean the other 5 continents found the way onto the internet? And here I thought NA and SA were alone here. Now I really feel paranoid. ;)

I actually think that this could work in larger schools where it's possible to offer *voluntary* enrollment in an All-Ethnicity-A math class, where the student, the counselor, and the parents all sign off that they believe the experiment might be good for the kid.

If it helps the kid to put his other tensions out of his mind for 45 minutes so he can actually focus on the task at hand, I'm all for it. So long as the student, the counselor, and the parents are all agreed on it.

Ideally, yes, none of us would even notice the skin tone of the person next to us. Unfortunately, it will take generations to get there. Each generation has to expose his kids to more than he was exposed to and needs to mask whatever prejudice he has as much as possible so that his kids are closer to the ideal. They then do the same for their kids. In terms of generations, we (U.S.'ers) aren't that far away from slavery and just got through civil rights. Color blindness will take at least a few more generations.

Until we get to that point, why not allow a high school kid and his parents the opportunity to request the most comfortable learning situation? As an experiment?

As for NCLB - don't get me started. Until it's mathematically possible to get every student above the 50th percentile (and for those not inclined toward math, that's physically impossible), all it's going to do is to continue to worsen the system. Sure sounds good in a speech, though, doesn't it? Remind me, again, when the federal government gained the right to interfere with education? Oh, that's right, as long as it's a bribe that schools can opt out of (if they don't need to pay their bills), the feds don't need the legal right. :)

Students should go to their neighborhood (or community) schools. Period. Bussing a student denies that student the right to get the full benefits of schooling and denies the neighborhood (or community) the full benefits that a school can provide. If we leveled out funding (no more property-tax-based funding) and kept kids at their local schools, poorer neighborhoods would have the school as a center of the community - a place for their kids to be able to do better - and even a place for adult ed to take root. Let's face it, in many of these areas, the school already has the best facilities and equipment in the area. Removing the school as a part of the community removes its resources from the community.