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rickvanr
May 6, 2006, 12:21 AM
Pretty sure Porsche is independent. :)

I could be wrong but the Volkswagen Group shares its platforms among Lamborghini, Bentley, Bugatti, SEAT, Skoda, VW and Audi (not so much the first two, although they are part of VW Group) although this isn't quite the same as re-badging. Nevertheless, a lot of their cars share a large proportion of their parts.

Received a trunk lock assembly for a VW Golf the other week, and it had Audi - VW - Seat - Skoda on the box, you're right there.

I always assumed Porsche was part of the VW group because they sell all three brands at some dealerships, and the VW Toureg and the Porsche Cayenne are based on the same platform.

xper
May 6, 2006, 12:25 AM
VW - Audi - Porsche

They're all one company, but NO they are not simply re-badged. You're thinking Toyota - Lexus, Honda - Acura, etc.
Dude i am confused, where you ment to quote dpaanlka? Cause it was him that statet the thing about audi an VW.

rickvanr
May 6, 2006, 12:32 AM
Dude i am confused, where you ment to quote dpaanlka? Cause it was him that statet the thing about audi an VW.

I was continuing and clarifying your point.

Toreador93
May 6, 2006, 12:40 AM
Well if the 9-2 does come back it will be under the Delta platform which underpins the Cobalt, HHR, and Ion(slated for death by next year to be replaced by an Opel Astra rebadge most likely). I really do love the Saab Aero-X Concept. That thing is hot. Rumors say it is slated for production under the Kappa platform that underpins the Solstice and Sky. Too bad that canopy won't make it for the production version. Saab just lost a sale since it doesn't have it. :p ;)

http://www.carpages.co.uk/saab/saab_images/saab_aero_x_01_03_06.jpg

http://auto.tom.com/img/assets/200603/0603021407042.jpg


You have no idea how bad I want that car! It's sad that GM owns SAAB and not Daimler Chrysler (my first pick) or Ford (Volvo is still doing good!); granted, I'd choose almost any other foreign car company to own them over the US. Anyway...

GO HERE (http://www.saab.com/microsites/aero_x/GLOBAL/en/index2.shtml) to get a flash overview of this incredible concept :)

mad jew
May 6, 2006, 01:19 AM
I always assumed Porsche was part of the VW group because they sell all three brands at some dealerships, and the VW Toureg and the Porsche Cayenne are based on the same platform.


Yeah, the Toureg and the Cayenne are based on the same platform, but I'm pretty certain Porsche is still independent. :)

munkees
May 6, 2006, 02:36 AM
Here's mine... only had it for about 2 weeks...

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f199/Heb1228/Caddy/DSC02156.jpg

Cool, I lov e caddies

mfacey
May 6, 2006, 02:56 AM
You have no idea how bad I want that car! It's sad that GM owns SAAB and not Daimler Chrysler (my first pick) or Ford (Volvo is still doing good!); granted, I'd choose almost any other foreign car company to own them over the US. Anyway...

GO HERE (http://www.saab.com/microsites/aero_x/GLOBAL/en/index2.shtml) to get a flash overview of this incredible concept :)


Bet you wish you were pumping gas when this thing pulled up then huh?!:D
http://bil.feber.se/2006/03/en_saab_aero_x_.html

mfacey
May 6, 2006, 03:00 AM
Pretty sure Porsche is independent. :)

I could be wrong but the Volkswagen Group shares its platforms among Lamborghini, Bentley, Bugatti, SEAT, Skoda, VW and Audi (not so much the first two, although they are part of VW Group) although this isn't quite the same as re-badging. Nevertheless, a lot of their cars share a large proportion of their parts.


Porsche is indeed independant. Their relationship with VW is due to the fact that Porsche is the largest shareholder of VW.

dpaanlka
May 6, 2006, 03:31 AM
Oh come on Audis and VWs look exactly the same. They both even have that same stupid bar running horizontally across the bottom 1/3 of their grilles. Thats beyond platform sharing. Thats just plain laziness.

Same goes for Lexus and Toyota.

West La
May 7, 2006, 10:22 AM
Here's the deal why I'm going with an RS4. The M3 is a fantastic ride, but i have had quality issues and multiple recall campaigns with this car. The car has been brought back to the dealer for the same things over and over again.... On top of that the dealer damaged my car and had the audacity to question my integrity (Crevier!).

So I'm sure the next gen M3 will be an outstanding car, but from past experience I would rather try something else.

jimsowden
May 7, 2006, 10:56 AM
Here's the deal why I'm going with an RS4. The M3 is a fantastic ride, but i have had quality issues and multiple recall campaigns with this car. The car has been brought back to the dealer for the same things over and over again.... On top of that the dealer damaged my car and had the audacity to question my integrity (Crevier!).

So I'm sure the next gen M3 will be an outstanding car, but from past experience I would rather try something else.
The RS4 is a slice of hottness. And to the person who said Audis are not rebranded Volkwagons, you are wrong. The A4 have the same frame and some have the same engine as a passat. And the Phaeton is just a Bentley. However VW doesn't own porsche, they do own Lamborghini, Bugatti, Bentley, and of course Audi.

jonme
May 7, 2006, 11:45 AM
The RS4 is a slice of hottness. And to the person who said Audis are not rebranded Volkwagons, you are wrong. The A4 have the same frame and some have the same engine as a passat. And the Phaeton is just a Bentley. However VW doesn't own porsche, they do own Lamborghini, Bugatti, Bentley, and of course Audi.


And Skoda!:D

dpaanlka
May 7, 2006, 01:11 PM
And Skoda!:D

And SEAT (soon to come to the United States)

mpw
May 7, 2006, 01:13 PM
...And the Phaeton is just a Bentley....
Just to nitpic the Bentley is actually a Phaeton re-worked not the other way round.

and the VW Polo spawns
Seat Ibiza, Skoda Fabia

the VW Golf spawns
VW Beetle, Audi A3, Seat Leon, Seat Altea, Skoda Octavia, Audi TT

the VW Passat leads a multiple life as
Audi A4 (I didn't know that I thought it was the A6), Skoda Supberb

Phaeton is the cousin the
Audi A8 and Bentley Continental GT and Flying Spur never talk about.

Then you've got cars like the Audi R7 which is a lamborgini Gallardo

There are plenty others I've missed and then of course you've got engine sharing which is a whole other story. Fact is the entire VW group have a very shallow gene pool.

dpaanlka
May 7, 2006, 01:26 PM
VW is like the GM of Europe.

Stridder44
May 8, 2006, 05:28 AM
http://us.autos1.yimg.com/img.autos.yahoo.com/aic/volkswagen_newgti_20t_2006_385x192.jpg

VW 06 GTI....*tear* :D

Whiteapple
May 8, 2006, 09:50 AM
Since I am only 16 years old, not yet the right to drive and acquire my proper license/car until I turn 18. Nevertheless, I will start driving in "accompanied driving", that's how we call it, until I turn 18 and drive on my own. This is the car i'll be driving, french made:) (from a website, don't have pics right now).

http://www.cardatabase.net/search/display_photo.file?filename=4/8/9/00036984.jpg&ZyXtCe=MTY0NTU4&id=00036984&ViD=middle

However, I do own a go-kart, or whatever you guys call them. It's a 125cm3 Rotax Max, also french made, a brilliant machine, kinda makes me wait until I turn 18:)

There it is: (note that I have a friend who had the exact same one).

http://guyguy.pagus.org/Tag%20Team/Rotax/DSC00782.jpg

http://guyguy.pagus.org/Tag%20Team/Rotax/DSC00783.jpg

http://guyguy.pagus.org/Tag%20Team/Rotax/DSC00779.jpg

http://guyguy.pagus.org/Tag%20Team/Rotax/DSC00777.jpg


Lucky guys who can drive alone:)

PS: My favorite car would be a LADA such as this one:

http://www.avonhill.com/thumbnails/sport_utility/1998_Lada_Niva1.jpeg

Transeau
May 8, 2006, 05:19 PM
And SEAT (soon to come to the United States)

Oh Gawd I Hope So!


Here is my 2k3 Bora 20V Turbo
http://www.intrustech.com/VWBora/Misc/IMG_2987.JPG

JMG
May 8, 2006, 11:46 PM
Here's my trusty B5 Audi A4 1.8T Quattro with a few mods:

GIAC Chip
Neuspeed Bilstien adjustable Shocks
Neuspeed Sport Springs
Valeo Ecodes
Baily DV
RS4 Front Grill
18x8.5 RS4 Wheels
B&M Short Shift Kit
VDO Turbo Boost Guage
K&N Intake Filter
GReddy Turbo Timer III
M3 Lip Spoiler
iPod Hookup



http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/281jmg-moon-med.jpg

ipod installed (don't mind the clear packaging that's peeling off.. it was before any cases were available):
http://home.comcast.net/~jmg703/ipod/jmg-ipod-01.jpg

http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/281jmg004-med.jpg

cplusON3R
May 9, 2006, 02:13 AM
mods so far:

complete 93 corrado 12v 2.8l vr6 motor/tranny swap into a 92 gti(pulled out the 4 banger 2.0l 8v motor and tranny)
techtonics tuning stainless steel racing downpipe/catback exhaust system with borla muffler
K&N cone filter
samco hoses
stage 2 weight reduction
eip highflow upper intake manifold
276 cams
adjustable cam gear retarded 3 degrees
heavy duty springs/lightweight lifters
NGK plugs
lightweight flywheel
x-drilled/slotted rotors all'round
GIAC chip
B&G coilovers
Pelican LSD

the sleeper/project car. aka the money pit:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/cplusDJD/DSC00977.jpg

radiantm3
May 9, 2006, 02:41 AM
I picked up this car used about a month ago:

http://static.flickr.com/55/118051075_f4ccfc09a1.jpg?v=0

It's more for the wife, but it's fun to drive for a sedan. The only thing I don't like about the car is the tail lights.

mfacey
May 9, 2006, 04:12 AM
PS: My favorite car would be a LADA such as this one:



You're kidding right?

JMG
May 9, 2006, 06:24 AM
mods so far:

complete 93 corrado 12v 2.8l vr6 motor/tranny swap into a 92 gti(pulled out the 4 banger 2.0l 8v motor and tranny)
techtonics tuning stainless steel racing downpipe/catback exhaust system with borla muffler
K&N cone filter
samco hoses
stage 2 weight reduction
eip highflow upper intake manifold
276 cams
adjustable cam gear retarded 3 degrees
heavy duty springs/lightweight lifters
NGK plugs
lightweight flywheel
x-drilled/slotted rotors all'round
GIAC chip
B&G coilovers
Pelican LSD

the sleeper/project car. aka the money pit:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/cplusDJD/DSC00977.jpg


Nice I drove an '87 GTI in high school (used). I loved that car.

cplusON3R
May 9, 2006, 10:55 AM
Nice I drove an '87 GTI in high school (used). I loved that car.

indeed.. I love the mk1s and mk2s so much from when I was a kid. My first dub was a my dads old dasher. then I bought a mk3 gti vr6. loved the motor but thought the shell was too, I dunno, frumpy? so I bought a mk2 shell and my friends helped with the swap. I dont miss the power windows, heated seats or power sunroof as much as I thought I would. the car just pulls so hard and drives like its on rails that I forget about all that power sunroof crap.

I'm sticking within the VAG community when I become a father in july. I'm really diggin' the mk5 gti.. 2.0T 5 door gti.... nice!;)

juicedus
May 9, 2006, 11:05 AM
http://us.autos1.yimg.com/img.autos.yahoo.com/aic/volkswagen_newgti_20t_2006_385x192.jpg

VW 06 GTI....*tear* :D

I just got that exact car. I love it. I'll probably get in too much trouble with it though.

RyuMD
May 10, 2006, 03:49 AM
work ride
http://i3.tinypic.com/xng19t.jpg

joy ride
http://i2.tinypic.com/xng1he.jpg

biblo
May 10, 2006, 01:56 PM
http://kuvax.net/i/9665_SuperCarry.jpg

Here's my sleeper:Suzuki Supercarry

It have:
-1000cc engine
-5v-gearbox(+reverse of course)
-13" Chromewheels from Mangels(original is 12")

Whiteapple
May 10, 2006, 03:40 PM
You're kidding right?

nah, great car!!! Plus, you'll see when you american people will have stolen and burnt all the petrol on earth, the russians thought about the problem a long time ago:) Sure it's 0-96mph in 2 minutes, but GPL is great, and it's the BEST 4x4 (better than Land Rover Defender). Course, it's not as comfortable than a Porsche Cayenne or Lincoln Aviator, but it has its own face, untouched for more than 20 years and still up to date. Go see a Cayenne in 20 years :eek:

fatandlazy11
May 11, 2006, 06:21 PM
Not actually mine, (Google search) But it looks exactly like this. (except for a major dent on the driver's side from aan accident)

1990 Toyota Pickup

Legacy
May 11, 2006, 06:41 PM
Pug 206 1.6 GLX, exactly as like the picture. Dunno if americans have this...:confused:

andypress
May 11, 2006, 06:50 PM
My baby:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/parasitic/P2102306.jpg

rickvanr
May 11, 2006, 10:22 PM
nah, great car!!! Plus, you'll see when you american people will have stolen and burnt all the petrol on earth, the russians thought about the problem a long time ago:) Sure it's 0-96mph in 2 minutes, but GPL is great, and it's the BEST 4x4 (better than Land Rover Defender). Course, it's not as comfortable than a Porsche Cayenne or Lincoln Aviator, but it has its own face, untouched for more than 20 years and still up to date. Go see a Cayenne in 20 years :eek:

You're kidding right?

rickvanr
May 11, 2006, 10:22 PM
nah, great car!!! Plus, you'll see when you american people will have stolen and burnt all the petrol on earth, the russians thought about the problem a long time ago:) Sure it's 0-96mph in 2 minutes, but GPL is great, and it's the BEST 4x4 (better than Land Rover Defender). Course, it's not as comfortable than a Porsche Cayenne or Lincoln Aviator, but it has its own face, untouched for more than 20 years and still up to date. Go see a Cayenne in 20 years :eek:

You're kidding right?

Cloudgazer
May 12, 2006, 06:35 AM
OK, finally got a decent pic of my car.

Problem is I may have to sell it in the coming weeks.
(insert crying baby sounds here)

redeye be
May 12, 2006, 01:58 PM
OK, finally got a decent pic of my car.
That is one beautiful car!
What is it?

And if i had a say in it: don't sell it.
If you do have to; you have my condolences.

drlunanerd
May 12, 2006, 02:03 PM
That is one beautiful car!
What is it?

And if i had a say in it: don't sell it.
If you do have to; you have my condolences.

It's a Karmann Ghia (made by Karmann for VW).

I followed a custom black one on my bike in London yesterday - hadn't seen one in years and it looked great.

CompUser
May 12, 2006, 02:24 PM
nah, great car!!! Plus, you'll see when you american people will have stolen and burnt all the petrol on earth, the russians thought about the problem a long time ago:) Sure it's 0-96mph in 2 minutes, but GPL is great, and it's the BEST 4x4 (better than Land Rover Defender). Course, it's not as comfortable than a Porsche Cayenne or Lincoln Aviator, but it has its own face, untouched for more than 20 years and still up to date. Go see a Cayenne in 20 years :eek:

Nahh, land rovers are the best 4x4xfar

Ohhh BURNNN.

(sorry, land rover joke)

I love the defenders and I wish they would bring them back to America. I think they stopped coming over because they don't meet safety requirements (airbags) in the US. I think they are so neat looking, and they are almost the same as land rovers built over 40 years ago.

http://www.carpages.co.uk/land_rover/land_rover_images/land_rover_defender_21_07_05.jpg

blitzkrieg79
May 12, 2006, 02:35 PM
Also due to the sale of the stock GM had in Subaru. But, don't be surprised to see the 9-2 nameplate brought back that is 100% Saab. As for the Corvette Sting Ray( or SS, but I prefer Sting Ray), they already confirmed 600+ HP. They just need a way to get it to the ground. Rumors are a Supercharged LS7 or an all new LS9 powerplant. Let me say this. With a rumored price of $100K and with 600+ ponies, I don't know why when someone is looking at a car in the $100K + price range for pure performance, they would not choose the Vette Sting Ray.

One word to all of the Corvette fans out there, EVO. Yup, price-performance wise nothing beats it. Oh yeah and there is this http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/cars/lancer_fq400.asp that does 0-60 in 3.5 sec. for a whole lot less than the rumored Sting Ray. And I even ain't gonna go into details about Evo's handling where it pretty much beats up any American muscle car.

And oh yeah, next year there is something even better coming up: EVO X (http://www.lancerregister.com/art_conceptx.php) :p

blitzkrieg79
May 12, 2006, 02:42 PM
Nahh, land rovers are the best 4x4xfar

Ohhh BURNNN.

(sorry, land rover joke)

I love the defenders and I wish they would bring them back to America. I think they stopped coming over because they don't meet safety requirements (airbags) in the US. I think they are so neat looking, and they are almost the same as land rovers built over 40 years ago.

http://www.carpages.co.uk/land_rover/land_rover_images/land_rover_defender_21_07_05.jpg

They won't bring Defender back to US because Americans (or at least the top level executives who make all the crappy decision) like to buy heavy, bloated, "safe" cars. Anyway, Defender, Land Cruiser, and Pajero (Montero) are true off-road legends. Too bad that most of todays SUVs only look like all-terrain vehicles (and no, HP is not everything)

devilot
May 12, 2006, 02:42 PM
One word to all of the Corvette fans out there, EVO. Yup, price-performance nothing beats it.That just makes absolutely no sense to me. A Corvette and an Evo are two completely different beasts with really different looks and feels to them. I'd understand your recommendation of an Evo to someone who was say, thinking about getting a WRX, but... a Corvette and an Evo?!

blitzkrieg79
May 12, 2006, 02:53 PM
That just makes absolutely no sense to me. A Corvette and an Evo are two completely different beasts with really different looks and feels to them. I'd understand your recommendation of an Evo to someone who was say, thinking about getting a WRX, but... a Corvette and an Evo?!


Ehhhhhh, you really don't understand, do you? EVO and Corvette both are, first and foremost, PERFORMANCE (racing) cars (the only difference is that one sits two people and the other can sit five people plus some decent trunk space; two seats don't define a sports car, PERFORMANCE defines it). Evo can beat a Corvette in a drag race, on gravel, and in a street race, and and and on snow/ice while costing a whole lot less.

kjr39
May 12, 2006, 04:56 PM
Ehhhhhh, you really don't understand, do you? EVO and Corvette both are, first and foremost, PERFORMANCE (racing) cars (the only difference is that one sits two people and the other can sit five people plus some decent trunk space; two seats don't define a sports car, PERFORMANCE defines it). Evo can beat a Corvette in a drag race, on gravel, and in a street race, and and and on snow/ice while costing a whole lot less.

Yawwnnnn.

Just another ricer pretending to be a sports car.

Tell ya what. You hop in that thing, I'll hop in a C6 Z06 and we'll head up to the mountains to see which one is better. Or, for that matter, any other road course that you can find.

You'll lose.

mfacey
May 12, 2006, 05:24 PM
Yawwnnnn.

Just another ricer pretending to be a sports car.

Tell ya what. You hop in that thing, I'll hop in a C6 Z06 and we'll head up to the mountains to see which one is better. Or, for that matter, any other road course that you can find.

You'll lose.


I guarantee ANY Corvette wouldn't stand a chance against an Evo IX. Definitely not the high power FQ400. Top Gear raced one against a lamborghini Murcielago a while ago and the Murcielago couldn't pass it.

I have to agree that you can't compare an Evo to a Corvette. A Corvette will always be sort a "wanna be" sports car. Sure the latest one has finally got handeling down. Value for money is good, but its still a Corvette! Come on guys! Its about as unoriginal as a Porsche 911.

Edit: One final thought. The Corvette is a way better-looking car than the Evo.

fanbrain
May 12, 2006, 05:34 PM
One word to all of the Corvette fans out there, EVO. Yup, price-performance wise nothing beats it. Oh yeah and there is this http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/cars/lancer_fq400.asp that does 0-60 in 3.5 sec. for a whole lot less than the rumored Sting Ray. And I even ain't gonna go into details about Evo's handling where it pretty much beats up any American muscle car.


Here are my thoughts (from an American standpoint of course).

The Corvette has a V8 and the EVO doesn't. Corvette wins hands down. Go ahead and drive your evo, but I'll stick to American muscle.

CompUser
May 12, 2006, 06:43 PM
Here are my thoughts (from an American standpoint of course).

The Corvette has a V8 and the EVO doesn't. Corvette wins hands down. Go ahead and drive your evo, but I'll stick to American muscle.

I agree, also, the evo is probably much smaller than a corvette, and much lighter. Thus the "better" handling.

I would much rather have a corvette than an evo. A corvette is recognized among all as a sports car. An evo is more like a car that people would say "oh look, he's trying to look cool in mitsubishi". A corvette is a classic and always will be.

mad jew
May 12, 2006, 06:56 PM
How did this thread turn into an EVO vs Corvette debate? Perhaps they both have their place on the performance car spectrum. :)

Anyone who disregards a competent car because of its brand name has insecurity issues.



To be honest, I'm just glad I live in Australia where both are trumped by our own metal (http://www.hsv.com.au/vz_intro.html). :p

fanbrain
May 12, 2006, 07:06 PM
The issue is not of brand, but of category. The Evo is a 4 cyl turbo AWD. The Corvette is V8 RWD naturally aspirated. They are not in the same class and shouldn't be compared that way. Different design, different characteristics, different cars. Compare the Evo with something in it's class.

CompUser
May 12, 2006, 07:15 PM
How did this thread turn into an EVO vs Corvette debate? Perhaps they both have their place on the performance car spectrum. :)

Anyone who disregards a competent car because of its brand name has insecurity issues.



To be honest, I'm just glad I live in Australia where both are trumped by our own metal (http://www.hsv.com.au/vz_intro.html). :p


As the person above me said. Really they are not even in the same class, a corvette is a 2 door roadster, the evo is a 4 door sedan. Enough said. Its like saying, my chevy Pickup has better acceleration than your ford escort.

mad jew
May 12, 2006, 07:17 PM
I'm agreeing. :)

FWIW, I wasn't aiming my comments at anyone in particular.

Saluki Alex
May 12, 2006, 08:09 PM
My first car, 2001 Mercury Cougar. I've had it for almost 3 years now.

http://static.flickr.com/49/145329370_41ac12a3bd.jpg

Platform
May 13, 2006, 02:19 AM
Nahh, land rovers are the best 4x4xfar

Ohhh BURNNN.

(sorry, land rover joke)

I love the defenders and I wish they would bring them back to America. I think they stopped coming over because they don't meet safety requirements (airbags) in the US. I think they are so neat looking, and they are almost the same as land rovers built over 40 years ago.

http://www.carpages.co.uk/land_rover/land_rover_images/land_rover_defender_21_07_05.jpg

The defender has got airbags ;)

mfacey
May 13, 2006, 02:46 AM
Here are my thoughts (from an American standpoint of course).

The Corvette has a V8.

I have to agree that the prospect of having a nice large V8 is much better than a whiney little straight 4. But you have to respect the engineering that goes into one of those mitsubishi engines to squeeze out 400+ horsepower.

cplusON3R
May 13, 2006, 04:08 AM
I have to agree that the prospect of having a nice large V8 is much better than a whiney little straight 4. But you have to respect the engineering that goes into one of those mitsubishi engines to squeeze out 400+ horsepower.

well.. its got boost. of course you're gonna get numbers as high as 400hp. but what about whp? I had a VW mk3 4cyl 8v gti. I didnt want a heavy motor so I opted for the 4 banger with plans for force induction.

specs of the sleeper:
c2 chip
42lb USRT injectors
sri awic
equal length tubular turbo mani w/ tial 38mm wg
114 octane
garrett t3 60 trim
one piece compressor inlet pipe, going from 4" reducing to 2.25" @ housing, maf located in 3.5" section
15degree wedge ic piping
obd1 block and head, swapped in the obd2 harness and ecu
spec stage 5 clutch set

189whp @ 5 psi

now since I have my vr6 swapped mk2 gti I'm just gonna keep it NA for a couple more show seasons.. then slap in a vf-e supercharger.. easier to maintain and tune than a turbo and everything's all 'bolt on'. nothing beats the low growl of the vr6 especially when coupled with a s/c. :)

Spanky Deluxe
May 13, 2006, 05:01 PM
This used to be my car a few years back, a Mini Cooper with literally all the options. I loved that car. It was stupid to have bought it though, it cost way way way too much for my age but I'd just gotten some inheritance money and didn't know what things were worth in the real world. Sold it just over two years ago. Carless now!!

D34th
May 14, 2006, 08:23 AM
'95 Jeep Wrangler YJ, fun little vehicle...

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/4241/jeeplightsoff9ih.th.jpg (http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jeeplightsoff9ih.jpg)

blitzkrieg79
May 14, 2006, 04:31 PM
Here are my thoughts (from an American standpoint of course).

The Corvette has a V8 and the EVO doesn't. Corvette wins hands down. Go ahead and drive your evo, but I'll stick to American muscle.


LOL, you can have your American "muslce" and I'll take the "ricer" who is about 5-10 years technology wise ahead of Corvette. Handling has to do a lot with the actual steering system design, something Mitsubishi has perfected over years in Paris/Dakar and world rallies. And all the Chevy research goes into Daytona 500 racing where all you do is drive in a circle on a pavement road. Big YAWN for that:P

Also, 4G63 (a 2.o liter inline 4 engine that can handle 900hp) is probably one of the best engine designs ever, the only other engine that can handle that much power compared to its displacent is found in Nissan Skylines. And that inline-4 will beat your V-8 anytime, anyplace:P Plus it's more gas efficient :P

EDIT: Also, if you zant to compare Z06 compare it to FQ400 (about same price range) and it's not even close (of course in FQ400 favor). Another thing, sports car is a sports car, whether 2 door, 4 door, or a hatchback, it's all about performance, better 0-60 times, better 1/4 times, better cornering/handling, not just drag racing, one car may have more HP than the other but if that power can't be distributed to it's wheels than whats the point?

Besides, what other car can you compare a Corvette to? Maybe a Viper and thats about it, Corvette is not in the same league as the European exotics.

andypress
May 14, 2006, 05:10 PM
LOL, you can have your American "muslce" and I'll take the "ricer" who is about 5-10 years technology wise ahead of Corvette. Handling has to do a lot with the actual steering system design, something Mitsubishi has perfected over years in Paris/Dakar and world rallies. And all the Chevy research goes into Daytona 500 racing where all you do is drive in a circle on a pavement road. Big YAWN for that:P

Also, 4G63 (a 2.o liter inline 4 engine that can handle 900hp) is probably one of the best engine designs ever, the only other engine that can handle that much power compared to its displacent is found in Nissan Skylines. And that inline-4 will beat your V-8 anytime, anyplace:P Plus it's more gas efficient :P

EDIT: Also, if you zant to compare Z06 compare it to FQ400 (about same price range) and it's not even close (of course in FQ400 favor). Another thing, sports car is a sports car, whether 2 door, 4 door, or a hatchback, it's all about performance, better 0-60 times, better 1/4 times, better cornering/handling, not just drag racing, one car may have more HP than the other but if that power can't be distributed to it's wheels than whats the point?

Besides, what other car can you compare a Corvette to? Maybe a Viper and thats about it, Corvette is not in the same league as the European exotics.
Finally, I was waiting for someone to comment on the ignorant comment "The Corvette has a V8 and the EVO doesn't.". Heck, I could show you tons of v6's and some 4 cylinders that output more power than a v8, with better mpg.

blitzkrieg79
May 14, 2006, 05:49 PM
Finally, I was waiting for someone to comment on the ignorant comment "The Corvette has a V8 and the EVO doesn't.". Heck, I could show you tons of v6's and some 4 cylinders that output more power than a v8, with better mpg.

Exactly, plus it is a whole lot tougher to design/engineer a small 2.0l displacement engine that can produce a stock 286HP than a 6.0l engine that can barely produce 400HP. Look at the ratio of engine displacement to horsepower, it's not even close.

cplusON3R
May 14, 2006, 05:56 PM
LOL, you can have your American "muslce" and I'll take the "ricer" who is about 5-10 years technology wise ahead of Corvette. Handling has to do a lot with the actual steering system design, something Mitsubishi has perfected over years in Paris/Dakar and world rallies. And all the Chevy research goes into Daytona 500 racing where all you do is drive in a circle on a pavement road. Big YAWN for that:P

Also, 4G63 (a 2.o liter inline 4 engine that can handle 900hp) is probably one of the best engine designs ever, the only other engine that can handle that much power compared to its displacent is found in Nissan Skylines. And that inline-4 will beat your V-8 anytime, anyplace:P Plus it's more gas efficient :P

EDIT: Also, if you zant to compare Z06 compare it to FQ400 (about same price range) and it's not even close (of course in FQ400 favor). Another thing, sports car is a sports car, whether 2 door, 4 door, or a hatchback, it's all about performance, better 0-60 times, better 1/4 times, better cornering/handling, not just drag racing, one car may have more HP than the other but if that power can't be distributed to it's wheels than whats the point?

Besides, what other car can you compare a Corvette to? Maybe a Viper and thats about it, Corvette is not in the same league as the European exotics.

umm.. first off I'd like to point out that I love all types of cars, be it american, jdm, euro, etc.. but I lean more towards german. anyway.. I'm not sure if you knew this but corvette has won the 24hr le mans plenty-o-times.. and the tracks arent oval. corvette beat out 'exotics' to get to the top. I believe in a couple races corvette took both 1st and 2nd place.

sure you get better gas milage with a 4 banger but guess what your internals are gonna look like after tracking that 4cyl. I've tracked my gti more than once before boosting it and it wasnt purty.

which gen skyline are you talking about? R32, 33, 34? either way.. you're trying to compare a NA motor to a FI motor?! and its not a 4 banger.. its a 6cyl with twin snails spooling (R32-R34) actually all skylines that were intruduced from the R31-R34 came with a straight 6 and some sort of turbo.

debroglie
May 14, 2006, 06:00 PM
http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/4391/img23645uo.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/8046/img23673sa.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/3040/img23710wl.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

1999 Saab 9-3
5-speed with a turbo

i love it:D

blitzkrieg79
May 14, 2006, 06:18 PM
umm.. first off I'd like to point out that I love all types of cars, be it american, jdm, euro, etc.. but I lean more towards german. anyway.. I'm not sure if you knew this but corvette has won the 24hr le mans plenty-o-times.. and the tracks arent oval. corvette beat out 'exotics' to get to the top. I believe in a couple races corvette took both 1st and 2nd place.

sure you get better gas milage with a 4 banger but guess what your internals are gonna look like after tracking that 4cyl. I've tracked my gti more than once before boosting it and it wasnt purty.

which gen skyline are you talking about? R32, 33, 34? either way.. you're trying to compare a NA motor to a FI motor?! and its not a 4 banger.. its a 6cyl with twin snails spooling (R32-R34) actually all skylines that were intruduced from the R31-R34 came with a straight 6 and some sort of turbo.

Ummmmmmm, and the Evo won plenty of rally races so what is your point? Service intervals are more frequent with a 4 banger but then again 4 bangers are more gas efficient so you lose some and you win some. I am not bashing the Corvette by any means, I just don't think it's as well engineered car as EVO is.

And I was talking about Skyline GT-R R32 and its RB26DETT engine, I know it's 6 banger but I was just comparing engines who have the highest HP to displacement ratios and 4G63 (Mitsubishi design which debuted in 1988!!!) and RB26DETT (Nissan design) are probably the best of what the auto world has to offer price-perfromance wise.

Of course there is always Bugatti Veyron but we are talking here about a car that costs over million bucks.

cplusON3R
May 14, 2006, 06:50 PM
Ummmmmmm, and the Evo won plenty of rally races so what is your point? Service intervals are more frequent with a 4 banger but then again 4 bangers are more gas efficient so you lose some and you win some. I am not bashing the Corvette by any means, I just don't think it's as well engineered car as EVO is.

And I was talking about Skyline GT-R R32 and its RB26DETT engine, I know it's 6 banger but I was just comparing engines who have the highest HP to displacement ratios and 4G63 (Mitsubishi design which debuted in 1988!!!) and RB26DETT (Nissan design) are probably the best of what the auto world has to offer price-perfromance wise.

Of course there is always Bugatti Veyron but we are talking here about a car that costs over million bucks.

indeed.. the evo is a rallye car and the vette isnt. I wasnt disagreeing with you, just basically saying that you're comparing apples to oranges.

HP means nothing.. Id rather see what you can get off the crank. :)

meaculpa20v
May 14, 2006, 07:23 PM
http://gotbluemilk.com/web050819/46/images/MF1A3249.JPG

http://gotbluemilk.com/web050819/46/images/HT4U5156.JPG

http://gotbluemilk.com/web050819/46/images/MF1A3590.JPG

http://gotbluemilk.com/web050819/46/images/MF1A3678.JPG

Me and my Wolfie at Thunderhill Race way.

Eric

cplusON3R
May 14, 2006, 10:35 PM
http://gotbluemilk.com/web050819/46/images/MF1A3249.JPG

http://gotbluemilk.com/web050819/46/images/HT4U5156.JPG

http://gotbluemilk.com/web050819/46/images/MF1A3590.JPG

http://gotbluemilk.com/web050819/46/images/MF1A3678.JPG

Me and my Wolfie at Thunderhill Race way.

Eric

lol.. hot! any mods on that dub? have you gotten that jetta 3 wheelin'?:p

meaculpa20v
May 14, 2006, 11:19 PM
lol.. hot! any mods on that dub? have you gotten that jetta 3 wheelin'?:p

Thanks, yeah still running the stock turbo. ECU and some basic bolt ons. Suspension is bilstien pss9's with ground control camber plates and stiffer rear springs.

And yeah, I have gotten it 3 wheeling, that was my first time on the track too. Now I have a need to return, haha.

Eric

cplusON3R
May 15, 2006, 01:11 AM
Thanks, yeah still running the stock turbo. ECU and some basic bolt ons. Suspension is bilstien pss9's with ground control camber plates and stiffer rear springs.

And yeah, I have gotten it 3 wheeling, that was my first time on the track too. Now I have a need to return, haha.

Eric

lol..indeed, bro, I totally know what you mean! good to see a dubber actually tracking their car. dont get me wrong, show cars are hot but why add bigger cams, x-drilled rotors, l/w flywheel, etc, etc if its just gonna be a trailer queen.. what side of the US do you live? do you goto any shows? (h2o, waterfest, dubwars)? are you on the vortex? my dub is like 2 pages back. my friend who also has a mk4 wolfie just got it revo'd. all I gotta say is 'whoa!':D

ObsidianIce
May 15, 2006, 01:41 AM
Ummmmmmm, and the Evo won plenty of rally races so what is your point? Service intervals are more frequent with a 4 banger but then again 4 bangers are more gas efficient so you lose some and you win some. I am not bashing the Corvette by any means, I just don't think it's as well engineered car as EVO is.

And I was talking about Skyline GT-R R32 and its RB26DETT engine, I know it's 6 banger but I was just comparing engines who have the highest HP to displacement ratios and 4G63 (Mitsubishi design which debuted in 1988!!!) and RB26DETT (Nissan design) are probably the best of what the auto world has to offer price-perfromance wise.

Of course there is always Bugatti Veyron but we are talking here about a car that costs over million bucks.

Hmmm..close but you're forgetting 3JZ-GTE, 3SGTE, SR20DET and SR20VET, the 13B and Renesis to name a few...

blitzkrieg79
May 15, 2006, 08:44 AM
Hmmm..close but you're forgetting 3JZ-GTE, 3SGTE, SR20DET and SR20VET, the 13B and Renesis to name a few...

Yeah, the Toyota engines are good too, Nissan makes a lot of capable engines, and probably the most underrated engines are being produced by Mitsubishi. I am also not a big fan of the high reving Honda engines although most car magazines think of them as the best
.
Renesis (rotary engine) engine most notably found in Mazda cars is probably the most revolutionary of them all but it's still a fairly new technology in automotive world and it really can't handle as much power as some of the mentioned engines.

ObsidianIce
May 15, 2006, 09:17 AM
Yeah, the Toyota engines are good too, Nissan makes a lot of capable engines, and probably the most underrated engines are being produced by Mitsubishi. I am also not a big fan of the high reving Honda engines although most car magazines think of them as the best
.
Renesis (rotary engine) engine most notably found in Mazda cars is probably the most revolutionary of them all but it's still a fairly new technology in automotive world and it really can't handle as much power as some of the mentioned engines.

I diagree a bit, but i'm done thread jacking! :p back to the pictures!

meaculpa20v
May 15, 2006, 03:26 PM
lol..indeed, bro, I totally know what you mean! good to see a dubber actually tracking their car. dont get me wrong, show cars are hot but why add bigger cams, x-drilled rotors, l/w flywheel, etc, etc if its just gonna be a trailer queen.. what side of the US do you live? do you goto any shows? (h2o, waterfest, dubwars)? are you on the vortex? my dub is like 2 pages back. my friend who also has a mk4 wolfie just got it revo'd. all I gotta say is 'whoa!':D

Yeah I know what you are talking about with the all show and no go thing. I myself would love to have my car look nice, but I would rather spend the money on the "go" part.

Hell yeah I'm on VWvortex, my sn is meaculpa20v. are you up there too?

yeah I have the 1.3 bar GIAC chip, it's nice. I live on the west coast. one of the first ten member of Norcal VW haha. but the truth is I haven't been to a meet since the first three a few years back. No time.

Are you on vortex??

You drive a MKII!? MAN!! I really really want a Rabbit, auto-X and road racing all the way!! Devilot does not approve though.

devilot
May 15, 2006, 06:41 PM
MAN!! I really really want a Rabbit, auto-X and road racing all the way!! Devilot does not approve though.I disapprove because you don't have the $ or space to spend on buying a Rabbit, paying for the mods, paying for registration, paying for insurance, and physical space to put it!

And you know full well that I support all of your track events, just not street racing after somebody :cough: got busted and got their car impounded for over a month.

jaydub
May 15, 2006, 06:42 PM
Man these last pics really make me miss my Volkswagens. I've had four, but I want another one.

yg17
May 15, 2006, 06:53 PM
Too lazy to find pics of my car, so here's one just like it that I found on Google Image Search:

http://www.autocircuit.com/r1fpics/KMHHN65F33U027173.jpg

Gnorn
May 15, 2006, 06:55 PM
Not exactly my car, but the model (and color) are the same... Except for the hideous sunroof...

http://foto.spullenbank.nl/common/img/00/00/04/28/_T42876.jpg

kjr39
May 15, 2006, 09:32 PM
To be honest, I'm just glad I live in Australia where both are trumped by our own metal (http://www.hsv.com.au/vz_intro.html). :p

You do realize that Holden is owned by GM and the LS2 is the standard Corvette engine?

cplusON3R
May 15, 2006, 10:07 PM
Yeah I know what you are talking about with the all show and no go thing. I myself would love to have my car look nice, but I would rather spend the money on the "go" part.

Hell yeah I'm on VWvortex, my sn is meaculpa20v. are you up there too?

yeah I have the 1.3 bar GIAC chip, it's nice. I live on the west coast. one of the first ten member of Norcal VW haha. but the truth is I haven't been to a meet since the first three a few years back. No time.

Are you on vortex??

You drive a MKII!? MAN!! I really really want a Rabbit, auto-X and road racing all the way!! Devilot does not approve though.

yeah, man! I'm on the 'tex.. my s/n is cplus1 over there. I was part of dirty jersey dubs when it first started but like you- I hardly go to gtgs, and meets anymore.. all we do is stand around, talk shop with the same people.. dont get me wrong. its not like I hate talking shop but not at every friggin gtg in the tri-state.:eek:

yep.. the mk2 is all me now. its still under construction.. I needs me a supercharger! ;) then it will be complete..

how are the mk4 forums nowadays.. when I was looking to buy one of those rare 1.8t 4 door golfs those forums were filled with posts like: "what wheels should I get" or the best one so far: "how do I install a blow-off valve on my vr6".:rolleyes: ahh.. those were the days! you should most definatly get a rabbit! track that bad boy alllll day long! theres a bunch auto-xing over here in jersey. everytime I head over to the meadowlands or raceway park theres at least 10 waiting for their turn. hardly any mk4s though.. :( and if I do see a mk4 they're usually waiting in line for their 1/4 mile run.

cplusON3R
May 15, 2006, 10:09 PM
Man these last pics really make me miss my Volkswagens. I've had four, but I want another one.

buy a mk2 jetta coupe shell and install a 1.8t!:eek:

jaydub
May 15, 2006, 10:34 PM
buy a mk2 jetta coupe shell and install a 1.8t!:eek:
Actually if I had my pick of a project car, it'd be a big bumper Mk2 with a VR6 in it. I've had Mk2's, and I've had a VR6, but never together. I know it's not the optimum setup but it's kind of the wild idea I'd love to make happen someday.

cplusON3R
May 15, 2006, 10:49 PM
Actually if I had my pick of a project car, it'd be a big bumper Mk2 with a VR6 in it. I've had Mk2's, and I've had a VR6, but never together. I know it's not the optimum setup but it's kind of the wild idea I'd love to make happen someday.

thats what I got now... and its yummmmmmmy :D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/cplusDJD/DSC00976.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/cplusDJD/DSC00867.jpg

jaydub
May 15, 2006, 10:54 PM
ho-lee-shiat. That's exactly what I want too, even the same color. :o

I had an 87 8v GTI that I loved, I so want another!

man, and you've even got single rounds, my favorite!!

quagmire
May 15, 2006, 11:00 PM
You do realize that Holden is owned by GM and the LS2 is the standard Corvette engine?


He knows that. :p Mad and I exchange PM's about GM and such. And let me say this. The amount of blind fanboism is amazing. Both the Corvette and Evo are very cool vehicles. Too bad Mits might go bankrupt in the U.S Market. They're the only company that seems to be proud of its Japanese Heritage. While Toyota and Honda try to surround themselves with American flags claiming to be as American as GM and Ford which is a ridiculous claim. To trash talk the Small Block V8 says that you know nothing about it. Sorry for a reality check. The Z06 can beat a Gallardo, and many other European exotics in the price range of $200-300K. And the Corvette SS with 600+ HP will make it even more of a exotic killer. Now of course there are cars that can beat the Z06.

cplusON3R
May 15, 2006, 11:03 PM
ho-lee-shiat. That's exactly what I want too, even the same color. :o

I had an 87 8v GTI that I loved, I so want another!

man, and you've even got single rounds, my favorite!!

lol.. werd alpine white, single rounds, e-codes w/city lights.. notice the early style mk2 jetta grille? still on the lookout for some used french fogs as well.:p

dooo eeet! you know want it! and if you and your friends are pretty knowledgable the swap could be done in one weekend! ;)

cplusON3R
May 15, 2006, 11:11 PM
oh yeah.. the engine bay may be a bit on the dirty side but I track it more than I show it so whatever.. and obviously I dont track it with the BBS RMs.. those are just my 'good time' wheels.. and dont mind the the low hanging BPTD skidplate.. I need to tweak it a little more for it to fit properly.. :mad:

kjr39
May 16, 2006, 09:47 PM
To trash talk the Small Block V8 says that you know nothing about it.

You and I would get along just fine...

Then again, I just put a Corsa on my V, so I own a LS and am what some would call biased...

quagmire
May 16, 2006, 10:03 PM
For you Z06 haters out there. Here is what Top Gear has to say about it. As usual though they input their European Bias in the review. They don't do there research as the Y-Body( the Corvettes and XLR's platform) would need extensive redoing to put the steering wheel on the right side. Anyway, here is the review.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=sp6VQpG8CRE

joshua_msu
May 16, 2006, 10:25 PM
Is that your house behind the M5? :eek:


Used to be. Just thought that it would eb a nice backdrop for the car. Love the round driveway.

MacMePlz
May 16, 2006, 10:45 PM
Im Mike, New Here. We have lots of Hondas :D!

03' Pilot EXL w/DVD
01' Accord 5spd Sedan - My Sporty 150hp beast hehe
96' Accord LX - Perfect in all ways
06' Civic EX - Son #1's
06' Civic EX Son #2's (Btw- Those sons are 30secs apart from each other. Yep Twins!)

But here's my two rides.
Almost to 100k!!! - 96 Accord
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/Ty7840726/Desktop99k.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/Ty7840726/000_0886.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/Ty7840726/000_0888.jpg

The 01' Straight From the Car Wash.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/Ty7840726/dsc_0007.jpg

I love my Hondas!!!

Good Day.
Mike

mad jew
May 17, 2006, 12:12 AM
You do realize that Holden is owned by GM and the LS2 is the standard Corvette engine?


Yeah, it's one of their best features. It's a very cool engine, despite being hounded as a primitive design.

Thanks for the link quagmire. :cool:

mpw
May 17, 2006, 01:18 AM
For you Z06 haters out there. Here is what Top Gear has to say about it. As usual though they input their European Bias in the review. They don't do there research as the Y-Body( the Corvettes and XLR's platform) would need extensive redoing to put the steering wheel on the right side. Anyway, here is the review.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=sp6VQpG8CRE
I don't get what you mean by 'European bias' or that they don't do their research.

Clarkson's only problems with the car was that it was so unrefined on the road. Now I haven't driven one but how is that European bias, are you saying it is refined, doesn't have tyre roar etc.?

munkees
May 17, 2006, 01:18 AM
For you Z06 haters out there. Here is what Top Gear has to say about it. As usual though they input their European Bias in the review. They don't do there research as the Y-Body( the Corvettes and XLR's platform) would need extensive redoing to put the steering wheel on the right side. Anyway, here is the review.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=sp6VQpG8CRE

all I can say is WOW

quagmire
May 17, 2006, 02:00 PM
I don't get what you mean by 'European bias' or that they don't do their research.

Clarkson's only problems with the car was that it was so unrefined on the road. Now I haven't driven one but how is that European bias, are you saying it is refined, doesn't have tyre roar etc.?

They always find ways to bash the American cars. Like the corvettes are "talentless" comment in this review. And how they went out of there way to find that the rear is a bit flexible when hit. If they did there research they would of found out that fact that the Y-Body would need major redoing for the steering wheel to be on the right side. While a valid complaint in the UK, he should of mentioned that fact. So far no American car magazine has complained about anything Clarkson brought up. And if you're going to buy a performance vehicle like the Z06, why care how good the radio is? As long as it is decent, it shouldn't warrant complaints. It isn't a freaking luxury vehicle.

dpaanlka
May 17, 2006, 02:08 PM
As a Chevy fan, and one time Camaro owner, I have driven almost every current Chevy at one time or another. I will be the first to admit, they aren't very refined. But they're not supposed to be.

quagmire
May 17, 2006, 02:20 PM
As a Chevy fan, and one time Camaro owner, I have driven almost every current Chevy at one time or another. I will be the first to admit, they aren't very refined. But they're not supposed to be.

Ever driven a Suburban, an Impala with the 3800, the Malibu SS, G6 and the new Impala with the 3900? I have a Suburban, while not as refined as a Cadillac or Lexus, it is refined for what the vehicle is and especially for that "horrid", "Old", "POS" Pushrod V8 that powers it. While I haven't ridden in an Impala, I have ridden in its platform mate, the Grand Prix with the 3800 and that V6 was very smooth and sounded great! Reviewers are quite surprised how refined and smooth the Pushrod 3900 VVT V6 is. Chevy isn't as refined as Cadillac is, but it is refined for what the Brand is. With a few exceptions like the 3400 in the Equinox. What a POS that engine is. And the interiors in Chevy's are improving. Look at the new Impala and Tahoe.

dpaanlka
May 17, 2006, 02:24 PM
Ever driven a Suburban

I have a 2005 Tahoe Z71. I love it for it's beefy, manly truck qualities. I also own a 2001 Saab 9-5 Aero....

The Tahoe is not even close to being what I consider "refined"

EDIT: I should say, my mom technically has the Tahoe, although I picked it out. The Saab is my car though. Nobody owns it but me.

quagmire
May 17, 2006, 03:24 PM
I have a 2005 Tahoe Z71. I love it for it's beefy, manly truck qualities. I also own a 2001 Saab 9-5 Aero....

The Tahoe is not even close to being what I consider "refined"

EDIT: I should say, my mom technically has the Tahoe, although I picked it out. The Saab is my car though. Nobody owns it but me.

What do you consider refined? If it is the interior, I agree. Since I am always getting into the Pushrod/OHV vs DOHC debate I always interpret unrefined as relative to the engine. Sorry, about that. The interior of the GMT-800's aren't the best and I would understand if you call it unrefined, but it is a truck. In, the new GMT-900's, the gaps between sheetmetal have been tightened, the interior has been vastly improved, and the Vortec 5300 has more power and gets better fuel economy then the predecessor. Remember the GMT-800's dates back to 1999. So there quite old.

dpaanlka
May 17, 2006, 03:39 PM
What do you consider refined? If it is the interior, I agree.

It's everything. Overall quality. Interior, handling, engine, efficiency, advancement. But not just how high of quality the build or materials are, but how much effort goes into the design of various parts of the car. How well-thought-out the placement, style, and form of a dashboard is, is really important to me.

For example, Lexus interiors have very high quality materials, but they aren't designed in a very driver-focused manner as BMWs and Saabs are. I find that most of these *young* brands, such as Lexus, have seemingly no real focus to their designs. Lots of blobs placed all over. I guess "focus" is a word I should use to describe what I'm looking for in a car. "Focus" and "purpose" and "driver-oriented."

I analyze every curve and form of a car's design and ask myself "why is this designed this way?" I find that most of the time, the Lexus or Acura or Chevrolet or Honda will just leave me with the answer "I have no idea."

You truly have to pay close attention to the details of a BMW or Saab to know why these brands of cars are generally considered "drivers' cars." When you drive these cars, they feel like extensions of your body instead of just transport devices.

It's a feeling I cant get from most brands. It's why Lexus drivers, while they may be very proud of their car, tend to not "love" or have any real feeling towards the brand. What Lexus driver knows the whole (short) history of Lexus, and can spot the cars from a distance and tell you exactly what it is and tell you fun or interesting facts about it?

While they may exist, it is far less common (percentage wise) than BMW and Saab. I personally never met anybody that actually loves the Lexus brand.

dpaanlka
May 17, 2006, 03:48 PM
I'm actually having a very tough time thinking of truly refined, truly driver-oriented brands of cars. Here's what I come up with so far:

BMW
Saab
Porsche
Alfa

EDIT: btw, when I say Saab, I do not mean the very GMerific 9-7 and 9-2, but *real* Saabs such as the 9-3, 9-5, 900 and 9000.

xelterran
May 17, 2006, 04:02 PM
dont have one right now :(

want one of these though (69 charger):
http://www.moparsunlimited.com/member_pics/69_Charger_Jim_Gaines.jpg

MacMePlz
May 17, 2006, 04:20 PM
For example, Lexus interiors have very high quality materials, but they aren't designed in a very driver-focused manner as BMWs and Saabs are. I find that most of these *young* brands, such as Lexus, have seemingly no real focus to their designs. Lots of blobs placed all over. I guess "focus" is a word I should use to describe what I'm looking for in a car. "Focus" and "purpose" and "driver-oriented."

I analyze every curve and form of a car's design and ask myself "why is this designed this way?" I find that most of the time, the Lexus or Acura or Chevrolet or Honda will just leave me with the answer "I have no idea."

You truly have to pay close attention to the details of a BMW or Saab to know why these brands of cars are generally considered "drivers' cars." When you drive these cars, they feel like extensions of your body instead of just transport devices.

It's a feeling I cant get from most brands. It's why Lexus drivers, while they may be very proud of their car, tend to not "love" or have any real feeling towards the brand. What Lexus driver knows the whole (short) history of Lexus, and can spot the cars from a distance and tell you exactly what it is and tell you fun or interesting facts about it?

While they may exist, it is far less common (percentage wise) than BMW and Saab. I personally never met anybody that actually loves the Lexus brand.

As much as I agree with your previous posts. I find this one rather interesting. The Saab you drive is nothing more than an American car. Sure it's got the key in between the seats and all. Total Saab looking too. But all in all. It's GM's take of Saab, they did a good job IMO, but still it's no real saab. My Wife Karen has had an 02' 9-3 Conv, we loved that car, it was a good ride for the money. Still, when you say BMW and Saab make more driver-focused interiors I question you. BMW has been criticized for their annoying i-Drive system, too many 'tiny' buttons on the dash, and with lower models (a.k.a. 3 Series) having uncomfortable interiors for the price range. Saab I will say is pretty driver-focused, but none of the contols on any Saab I've ever driven are as simple and well thought out as the ones on the Honda's we drive. When Im in my Accord's I feel like the interior fits me like a glove, and that all my contols require no movement of my body bedises my arm to reach them.

Yes, yes, Im starting to sound like some silly Honda driver that is trying to prove a point. But keep in mind, I've owned all of the makes you describe in your post, so this is in no way close minded. You say Honda and Acura make you say "I have no idea why they did that" in their design touches. Well thankfully Im well informed about the brand that Im proud of and turely love, so I can gladly give you an answer. It's called "Safety for Everyone" Honda/Acura's commitment to giving all buyers a car loaded with Safety features. But wait! There's more. They also extended their commitment to Safety in automobiles to pedestrians and other motorvehicles. Why to all Honda's have curved hoods at the grille? Simple. It's so that then a pedestrian is stuck by the car, they wont be pushed down to the road and end up going under the car. The idea is that instead, they will slide up on the hood giving them a higher chance of surviving with less bodily injury. IMO too. The designs they've made with that strategy have been quite proving, and look pretty good too. Just for the heck of it. I thought I'd do a little head to head beauty contest with your car, and an Acura TL.
Here's a Picture of my friend Steve's TL:
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e365/stevencrosbie/31abaca2.jpg
And Here's your Saab.
http://images.consumerguide.com/autoreview/400x266/2005-Saab-9-5-05903061990004.JPG

Not trying to put you down or anything. Just asnwering your unanswered questions. I miss our 9-3 quite a bit to be honest. It was a good car despite the GM build quality. Should Saab ever become a Saab again. We might even buy one.

BTW- Still not getting the interior thing???
TL:
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e365/stevencrosbie/25f81e9e.jpg
Accord:
http://images.automotive.com/cob/factory_automotive/images/features/auto_shows/2006_CIAS/2006_Honda_Accord_Sedan_Interior.jpg

Ain't it neat how you can get an interior like that and near BMW level driving experience for about 22k well equipped? :D

Anyhow. Im such a proud and loving Honda owner that I ahd to throw that out there. I'll admit though (not a toyota fan!!!). I didn't like the lexus SC430 at all! Glad we got rid of it.

Mike

dpaanlka
May 17, 2006, 04:51 PM
The 9-5 was designed when Saab was still owned by Saab. It is very un-GM and has nothing in common with any other GM. So I don't know what you're saying there. In fact, it's still the last Saab to use an acutal Saab H engine, not any other GM engine.

Also, the Acura TL STILL doesn't have a driver focused interior at all. And I've been in plenty of TLs and can tell you they don't come near BMW in terms of interior.

And finally, posting a picture of a TL and a 9-5 together makes me like the 9-5 even more.

Another problem with Acura/Lexus is every single car they make looks completely unrelated. There is no brand pride there. No heritage. Just two car companies that never existed 20 years ago now trying to pretending like they've been great contributions to the industry over the last century.

EDIT: Sorry the more I look at that Acura interior the more I hate it. Especially how similar it looks to the much cheaper Accord interior. I never even realized that.

EDIT #2: This is what a REAL driver-focused interior looks like. I especially appreciate thte high level of tradition you find in Saab interiors. They essentially have the same layout as Saabs from 20 years ago, right down to Saab's traditional knob-and-pane air vents. Very classic, very driver-oriented. The car was designed from the ground up to be an enthusiasts car. The Acura TL is just a dressed up Accord.

The Saab 9-5 interior surrounds the driver like a glove, and then gets out of the way of the passenger so they have plenty of room. It's an excellent design.

quagmire
May 17, 2006, 05:14 PM
The 9-3's engine isn't in any other GM vehicle. The only engines that are in a Saab and in other brands is the Vortec 4200 Inline 6 and the Vortec 5300 V8 since the 9-7x is a rebadge of the Trailblazer. But, the 9-7x is only a stopgap until a true Saab Crossover SUV will arrive. And macmeplease, sorry if your 9-3 was troublesome. In 2003 is when the 9-3 came out so bugs and quality issues can be expected. Even in a Honda. Most of the common problems of the first year Saab 9-3's have been worked out. Expect the new 9-5 and 9-3 to have a grille similar to the Aero-X concept. The 9-2x might be gone, but a true Saab 9-2x based on the Delta platform may come along, but nothing confirmed yet.

spinne1
May 17, 2006, 05:15 PM
Those Honda interiors look pretty good to me.

One of the coolest cars ever was the 1950 Buick Lesabre concept car. I wish this had been a production vehicle.
http://www.madle.org/lesabre2.jpg
http://www.madle.org/lesabre4.jpg

As for refinement in interiors, I think it is a matter of personal taste and preference. Everyone has a different idea of what they want on their dashboard and where it should be located. I personally do not like the new style of "cocoon" style dashes (like the second picture in the pro-Honda post just above) where each person in the front has their own little secluded space. I like a more open feel. The dash of my 92 Lesabre is a huge reason why I love my car. I first drove a 92 Lesabre back in 93 when I needed a rental car. I was at first kind of shocked at how different the dash looked and felt. It was offputting. It seemed almost TOO open and roomy near the dash. By the end of my rental I was in love with the car and wanted one from that time onward. The dash of a 92 Lesabre feels very flat and unobtrusive. It is a throwback to the dash designs of cars of the 40s-60s. Frankly they have ruined the dash with the more recent Lesabres, as well as the Lucernes and Lacrosses. The dashboards are not nearly as good to me. Granted, the speedometer is not very pretty and there is no tach or rpm gauge, but that is not my point. The overall shape is what I refer to.

There is certainly a cool factor in a snug dash (like the Saab interior above) and an ergonomic factor, but it is not for me.

dpaanlka
May 17, 2006, 05:18 PM
Here are the Saab 9-5 and it's Saab 9000 predecessor interiors. As I said they haven't changed much, only modernized a bit. It's such an excellent performance driving setup.

The bottom is a recent interior and the top is a 1980s interior.

dpaanlka
May 17, 2006, 05:21 PM
The 9-3's engine isn't in any other GM vehicle. The only engines that are in a Saab and in other brands is the Vortec 4200 Inline 6 and the Vortec 5300 V8 since the 9-7x is a rebadge of the Trailblazer. But, the 9-7x is only a stopgap until a true Saab Crossover SUV will arrive. And macmeplease, sorry if your 9-3 was troublesome. In 2003 is when the 9-3 came out so bugs and quality issues can be expected. Even in a Honda. Most of the common problems of the first year Saab 9-3's have been worked out. Expect the new 9-5 and 9-3 to have a grille similar to the Aero-X concept. The 9-2x might be gone, but a true Saab 9-2x based on the Delta platform may come along, but nothing confirmed yet.

Actually the 9-3 came out in 1998. And it really wasn't a 9-3, it was just a 900 rebadged and with a new grille.

Regardless, my 9-5 now has 116,000 miles on it and has been the most reliable car I've ever owned (third car).

Frankly they have ruined the dash with the more recent Lesabres, as well as the Lucernes and Lacrosses.

What? Those cars are gorgeous. Finally Buick has some competitive cars instead of the same old garbage.

quagmire
May 17, 2006, 05:23 PM
Actually the 9-3 came out in 1998. And it really wasn't a 9-3, it was just a 900 rebadged and with a new grille.

Regardless, my 9-5 now has 116,000 miles on it and has been the most reliable car I've ever owned (third car).

Well he said 9-3. And it came out in 2003. So maybe he should edit it and say 900(0?)

dpaanlka
May 17, 2006, 05:23 PM
Well he said 9-3. And it came out in 2003. So maybe he should edit it and say 900(0?)

There is such a thing as a 1998 - 2002 9-3. In fact this generation is famous for it's performance "Viggen" model.

The procession of the 900/9-3 is as follows:

1993-1997: 900
1998 - 2002: 9-3 (same car though)
2003 - present: *new* 9-3 - unrelated to previous car

quagmire
May 17, 2006, 05:34 PM
There is such a thing as a 1998 - 2002 9-3. In fact this generation is famous for it's performance "Viggen" model.

The procession of the 900/9-3 is as follows:

1993-1997: 900
1998 - 2002: 9-3 (same car though)
2003 - present: *new* 9-3 - unrelated to previous car


Ahh. GM loves to do that. Give the old car the new gen name before the real vehicle comes out. I mean before the Envoy came out, GMC put the Envoy nameplate on the Jimmy's.

dpaanlka
May 17, 2006, 05:35 PM
Ahh. GM loves to do that. Give the old car the new gen name before the real vehicle comes out. I mean before the Envoy came out, GMC put the Envoy nameplate on the Jimmy's.

Actually, they were returning Saab to its 60s and 70s names of 9-something. The 9000 was the 9-5 before it became the 9000, and now it's the 9-5 again. GM didn't fully own Saab until 2001, by the way. This coincides with some 2001 Saabs having the old logo, some having the new one, and some having mixed!

I personally like the old logo better, as it seems "classier" - one of these days I'm going to buy a set for my 9-5.

There is certainly a cool factor in a snug dash (like the Saab interior above) and an ergonomic factor, but it is not for me.

And that is perfect if you like that. Everybody enjoys a ride in a comfortable buick. But they're not performance-oriented cars thats for sure. I don't think the Saab interior is really designed just to be cool, but to be very useable when you are driving fast and have to make quick decisions or get information very quickly, as well as give you a sense of confidence when you are "better connected" to the car.

Sitting in a buick is like swimming in a pool.

true777
May 17, 2006, 05:54 PM
I'm actually having a very tough time thinking of truly refined, truly driver-oriented brands of cars. Here's what I come up with so far:

BMW
Saab
Porsche
Alfa



Maserati, baby.

dpaanlka
May 17, 2006, 05:55 PM
Maserati, baby.

Hell yes.

imac abuser
May 17, 2006, 06:12 PM
I wish ;)

blackfox
May 17, 2006, 08:58 PM
Here are the Saab 9-5 and it's Saab 9000 predecessor interiors. As I said they haven't changed much, only modernized a bit. It's such an excellent performance driving setup.

The bottom is a recent interior and the top is a 1980s interior.
I have a 1997 9000 (special edition) and I love it (it's buried in this thread somewhere). While I really like the cabin design, to me Saab hit it's high-mark with the Original 900. No computers, no little buttons - just samrtly-designed guages and easily twistable knobs. My 9000 has some quirks inside, like no glove box, instead a lockable center console (pretty small). It also has the ignition in the noraml position on the steering column. I also love the interior design of the 99 - I almost bought a 1978 99 turbo - fantastic seats and strange, yet functional seat belts.

To me modern saabs are just not very good looking, especially the 1998-2002 9-5's. The redesigns are a marked improvement, but the 9-5 seems to have too many chicklet-like buttons in the interior. I actually like the design of the newest 9-3's, however and find the 9-3 sportcombi to be the sexiest wagon ever. Aero seats, have traditionally been among the finest production seats in any car.

As to your photos - is the 9000 interior you posted really from the 80's? I didn't think Saab switched to wood-grain interiors until the mid 90's...

BTW, I love all this Saab talk - great cars.

dpaanlka
May 17, 2006, 09:08 PM
While I really like the cabin design, to me Saab hit it's high-mark with the Original 900. No computers, no little buttons - just samrtly-designed guages and easily twistable knobs.

I actually prefer the flurry of buttons in the 1998 - 2002 to the 3 big knobs that have replaced them since then. I like it because each button has one purpose, whereas the knobs have like multiple functions that can get confusing, especially when you're trying to focus on driving.

Aero seats, have traditionally been among the finest production seats in any car.

I'll say.

As to your photos - is the 9000 interior you posted really from the 80's? I didn't think Saab switched to wood-grain interiors until the mid 90's...

I was referring more to the design of the dash rather than the wood grain. It may be from the early 90s I'm not sure. But the overall layout and position of the driver-focused dash is indeed from the 80s. Now on 2006 models you cannot buy a 9-5 with wood grain, which is a shame. Brushed aluminum looks cheesy to me. I like my wood grain a lot, and my dozens of buttons.

BTW, I love all this Saab talk - great cars.

Indeed they are! I really like the 9-5 as it is the last Saab that actually looks like a Saab, all funky and unique. They should make a 9-3 hatch... that isn't a wagon. That would really bring back some Saab flavor to the line. The 9-3 conv is gorgeous though.

GM must be given credit for the 9-7 interior. While the outside looks like the Trailblazer that it is, the inside is a totally new design built specifically for Saab. It even features the Saab knob-vents and the center mounted dash, and the twirly cup holder from the 9-5, and sortof a general "saab shape" with a very driver-focused feel.

CompUser
May 17, 2006, 09:09 PM
Here are the Saab 9-5 and it's Saab 9000 predecessor interiors. As I said they haven't changed much, only modernized a bit. It's such an excellent performance driving setup.

The bottom is a recent interior and the top is a 1980s interior.

I noticed that. My mom had a 1993 Saab 9000 Turbo. I remember that interior. What an unreliable and expensive to fix (and it took forever to get parts) car. She only kept it for 2-3 years.

devilot
May 17, 2006, 09:10 PM
BTW, I love all this Saab talk - great cars.I don't.


:p j/k I just keep seeing this thread being posted in, and click expecting to see photos of members' cars but nope, just OEM type published photos.

dpaanlka
May 17, 2006, 09:16 PM
keep seeing this thread being posted in, and click expecting to see photos of members' cars but nope, just OEM type published photos.

Well here is my actual car. I don't know if I already posted this - this thread is so huge.

I noticed that. My mom had a 1993 Saab 9000 Turbo. I remember that interior. What an unreliable and expensive to fix (and it took forever to get parts) car. She only kept it for 2-3 years.

Yeah, a Saab is most rewarding when you can afford it. Although, mine has been quite a bit more reliable than my 96 Camaro and 94 Saturn SC2. But in the case that something does go wrong, a Saab is not something that I would recommend to anyone on a limited income.

japasneezemonk
May 18, 2006, 03:50 AM
http://static.flickr.com/47/148642948_7439e6f0a2.jpg

Cloudgazer
May 18, 2006, 08:23 AM
Here are the Saab 9-5 and it's Saab 9000 predecessor interiors. As I said they haven't changed much, only modernized a bit. It's such an excellent performance driving setup.

The bottom is a recent interior and the top is a 1980s interior.

I'm sorry, but i think its pretty stupid that they haven't updated the interior much in 20 years.
There have been great strides in ergonomics since then.
And while i agree with the 'if it aint broke...' philosophy, I have no doubt that the interior can be improved.

It kinda like having an aluminium macbook pro fitted with a trackball from a powrerbook 140.

imac abuser
May 18, 2006, 09:11 AM
Nice Jetta

mpw
May 18, 2006, 09:55 AM
I'm sorry, but i think its pretty stupid that they haven't updated the interior much in 20 years.
There have been great strides in ergonomics since then.
And while i agree with the 'if it aint broke...' philosophy, I have no doubt that the interior can be improved.

It kinda like having an aluminium macbook pro fitted with a trackball from a powrerbook 140.
But what if the PowerBook 140 had been fitted, with typical Job's foresight and ingenuity, a scrolling trackpad just as the present MacBook Pro what should the present MacBook Pro use or should it stick with the best design for the job in hand?

imac abuser
May 18, 2006, 09:56 AM
haha that's great! lol

dpaanlka
May 18, 2006, 11:09 AM
I'm sorry, but i think its pretty stupid that they haven't updated the interior much in 20 years.
There have been great strides in ergonomics since then.
And while i agree with the 'if it aint broke...' philosophy, I have no doubt that the interior can be improved.

It kinda like having an aluminium macbook pro fitted with a trackball from a powrerbook 140.

That was the worst analogy ever. Everybody that gets into my car comments on the interior, and it really is a testament to excellent swedish design and ergenomics. And now that (unfortunately) most car companies seem to have adopted the unfocused blob interior philosophy, it really stands out as unique and something special. Change for the sake of change is pointless and illogical, just like your analogy.

But what if the PowerBook 140 had been fitted, with typical Job's foresight and ingenuity, a scrolling trackpad just as the present MacBook Pro what should the present MacBook Pro use or should it stick with the best design for the job in hand?

Couldn't have said it better myself. Who knows what would have happened if Jobs hadn't left Apple for 10 years. The whole computing industry might have been different. Cloudgazer, you should at least stop by your local Saab dealer, sit in the drivers seat of a 9-5 sedan, and then try and tell me that Interior is outdated and should be "replaced."

EDIT: For more fun, here (http://www.danpalka.net/protected/movies/nicemovs/95.mov) is a 30 commercial for the current 9-5. It features some interior and exterior action shots as the driver races head on towards an aircraft. And as a preemptive answer to anyones question, "yes." That obviously CGI-ed fighter is in fact a Saab JAS-39 Gripen fighter.

marchcapital
May 18, 2006, 11:32 AM
I wish ;)
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e209/devinmarch/missioniii_carback.jpg
A hockey player on my street has one of those. That exact color. He also has a black Land Rover Sport. Lucky bugger!

Cloudgazer
May 18, 2006, 11:51 AM
That was the worst analogy ever. Everybody that gets into my car comments on the interior, and it really is a testament to excellent swedish design and ergenomics. And now that (unfortunately) most car companies seem to have adopted the unfocused blob interior philosophy, it really stands out as unique and something special. Change for the sake of change is pointless and illogical, just like your analogy.



Couldn't have said it better myself. Who knows what would have happened if Jobs hadn't left Apple for 10 years. The whole computing industry might have been different. Cloudgazer, you should at least stop by your local Saab dealer, sit in the drivers seat of a 9-5 sedan, and then try and tell me that Interior is outdated and should be "replaced."



OK, maybe not the best analogy to have used.

I like Saabs, think they're great cars and all, but I've never been mad about the interior.
In fact, its the one thing that would stop me buying one. The only thing actually.
I can't put my finger on what it is though. The design just does not appeal to me.
Since I spend all my time inside the car, the dashboard and interior design are of far more importance to me than the exterior.

Cloudgazer
May 18, 2006, 11:55 AM
But what if the PowerBook 140 had been fitted, with typical Job's foresight and ingenuity, a scrolling trackpad just as the present MacBook Pro what should the present MacBook Pro use or should it stick with the best design for the job in hand?

I dunno - a wacom styled trackpad possibly, something you could write on, who knows.
The point I was trying to make was that they've practically redesigned, fixed up, tweaked and improved everything else.
Please see my previous post about how I feel about the interior.

Oh, now I remember one of hte features I didn't like.
I thought the speedometer was waaay too large it was like looking at a grandfatgher clock.
I prefer to have the rev counter more prominent than the speedo.

dpaanlka
May 18, 2006, 11:56 AM
Since I spend all my time inside the car, the dashboard and interior design are of far more importance to me than the exterior.

The dashboard and interior design are a huge priority to me... just look at how much time I've wasted posting in this thread about Saab dashes! This is a huge reason why I love this car. I wish I had bought it sooner. I never even considered Saab until I started researching them. Now I can't get enough Saab to satisfy me.

I'm assuming then that you are in the other spectrum of car drivers, who like a wide open space in front of you, just as spinne1 had stated? Because if this is the case, I can understand why some people, especially those who don't care much about performance driving but rather a comfortable and safe ride, would not like the very snug "cockpit" feel of the Saab - even the 9-5 (a fairly large sedan - larger than a BMW 5 series) has a snug feel to it.

EDIT:

I prefer to have the rev counter more prominent than the speedo.

As I was saying about not caring about performance driving... you mean tachometer? I'm sorry but I can't think of a single car anywhere who has a larger tachometer than speedometer.

mpw
May 18, 2006, 12:03 PM
...You mean tachometer? I'm sorry but I can't think of a single car anywhere who has a larger tachometer than speedometer.
I can't name names (911 maybe) but there are plenty, but why?

Fine if it's a track car but on the road it's just marketing nothing to do with driving or ergonomics.

dpaanlka
May 18, 2006, 12:04 PM
I can't name names (911 maybe)

I don't even think the 911 has a larger tach than speedo. Maybe the Carrera GT or whatever it is. I don't know much about Porsche.

Come to think of it my friend has a Civic with a much much larger tach than speedo... but it's aftermarket. And it looks silly.

Cloudgazer
May 18, 2006, 12:07 PM
The dashboard and interior design are a huge priority to me... just look at how much time I've wasted posting in this thread about Saab dashes! This is a huge reason why I love this car.

I'm assuming then that you are in the other spectrum of car drivers, who like a wide open space in front of you, just as spinne1 had stated? Because if this is the case, I can understand why some people, especially those who don't care much about performance driving but rather a comfortable and safe ride, would not like the very snug "cockpit" feel of the Saab - even the 9-5 (a fairly large sedan - larger than a BMW 5 series) has a snug feel to it.



You mean tachometer? I'm sorry but I can't think of a single car anywhere who has a larger tachometer than speedometer.

Actually I far prefer the 'cockpit' style interiors.
My older BMW 3 series had a great cockpit style interior.

tachometer - speedometer - same difference.
[Greek takhos, speed + -meter.]
We don't call them tachometers here.

Many sports cars, and manual transmission vehicles have larger, and if not larger more prominently displayed, Rev Counters (tachometers as you call em).

I think our terminology is going to get confusing. :)

dpaanlka
May 18, 2006, 12:10 PM
Actually I far prefer the 'cockpit' style interiors.
My older BMW 3 series had a great cockpit style interior.

tachometer - speedometer - same difference.
[Greek takhos, speed + -meter.]
We don't call them tachometers here.

Many sports cars, and manual transmission vehicles have larger, and if not larger more prominently displayed, Rev Counters (tachometers as you call em).

I think our terminology is going to get confusing. :)

I'd say the 9-5 has even more of a cockpit feel than the 3 series... and neither of them have larger tachs than speedos so I still am confused about that. The 9-5 is in a different class than the 3 series though. 9-5 compares more to 5 series in size, price, and power.

EDIT: oh yeah my 9-5 is stick btw - see my interior photo a few posts back

EDIT #2: I would say that BMW has sortof lost its way with the current 3s. They're slightly less driver focused than the older 3 series. I hope Saab doesn't do the same in the future. I believe GM fully realized it's horrendous 9-2 Saaburu mistake.

Cloudgazer
May 18, 2006, 12:15 PM
I'd say the 9-5 has even more of a cockpit feel than the 3 series... and neither of them have larger tachs than speedos so I still am confused about that. The 9-5 is in a different class than the 3 series though. 9-5 compares more to 5 series in size, price, and power.

EDIT: oh yeah my 9-5 is stick btw - see my interior photo a few posts back

I'm not comparing the BMW to the Saab. i was just stating i like the cockpit style interior.
I find the speedo in the Saab too large. And if I'm not mistaken it sits in the centre of the console
In the BMW the speedo and rev counter are the same size, both prominently displaayed.
I find I usually drive using the rev counter as opposed to the actual speed reading.

I definately agree with your 2nd edit. The new BMW interiors are not as nice as the older ones.

dpaanlka
May 18, 2006, 12:26 PM
I find I usually drive using the rev counter as opposed to the actual speed reading.

I've never had a problem finding or reading my tach, which I also drive from. Another thing I thought of about the Saab 9-5 dash that I enjoy that isn't too common on cars these days is the wall all of the guages are confined within a flat-surfaced dash, as opposed to all kinds of extra humps and protrusions that seem like after-thoughts on most current cars.

EDIT: Here is a 2006 interior. They have done away with wood grain (sadness) but its still the same dash.

Cloudgazer
May 18, 2006, 12:47 PM
I've never had a problem finding or reading my tach, which I also drive from. Another thing I thought of about the Saab 9-5 dash that I enjoy that isn't too common on cars these days is the wall all of the guages are confined within a flat-surfaced dash, as opposed to all kinds of extra humps and protrusions that seem like after-thoughts on most current cars.

EDIT: Here is a 2006 interior. They have done away with wood grain (sadness) but its still the same dash.

The interior is not ugly - its quite stylish and would definately be better with the wood finish - it simply doesn't appeal to me.
I really don't like the big speedo - I guess it reminds me of cheap cars that don't have any other gauges so they make one big speedo to make up for it.

EDIT: Not that i can really comment at the mo on ANY interior, as this is mine....:D

dpaanlka
May 18, 2006, 01:01 PM
The interior is not ugly - its quite stylish and would definately be better with the wood finish - it simply doesn't appeal to me.
I really don't like the big speedo - I guess it reminds me of cheap cars that don't have any other gauges so they make one big speedo to make up for it.

I'm surprised somebody can get so hung up on a speedo being bigger than a tach - a feature found in every production car today.

Cloudgazer
May 18, 2006, 01:09 PM
I'm surprised somebody can get so hung up on a speedo being bigger than a tach - a feature found in every production car today.

Oh no need to blow it out of proportion. I'm certainly not hung up about it.
Its simply a feature i don't like.
Beleive me, its not like I loose any sleep over it.
But if I'm gonna spend a fortune an a car, I'm gonna make damn sure I'm comfortable and happy behind the dash.
Also not wanting to split hairs or anything, but a larger speedo is not found in every production car today.

dpaanlka
May 18, 2006, 01:15 PM
Also not wanting to split hairs or anything, but a larger speedo is not found in every production car today.

Sorry... *nearly* every production car today.

climhazzard85
May 19, 2006, 12:29 AM
Ain't it neat how you can get an interior like that and near BMW level driving experience for about 22k well equipped? :D


Mike

I hope you are joking, a front wheel drive Honda having the same driving experience as a rear wheel drive BMW? Don't get me wrong, I am definitely a Honda fan...but your comment is asinine.

dpaanlka
May 19, 2006, 12:40 AM
Yeah, I'm sorry dude. No matter how you try to make it sound, I'm quite confident that Hondas don't quite compare to BMWs and Saabs. It just doesn't work that way.

mpw
May 19, 2006, 03:22 AM
...tachometer - speedometer - same difference.
[Greek takhos, speed + -meter.]
We don't call them tachometers here....
Speedometer generaly measure road speed tachometers(US) or revcounter(UK) measure engine speed.

A large revcounter is useful in a sports car on a track because the driver will want input as to when to change gear for optimium power when he's racing hard with a helmut on etc. and when he doesn't care about his road speed, as long as he's going faster than the other guys it's not relevant, which is why the revcounter takes prime position. In a road car the speedo useually takes the prime spot cause you need to keep to speed limits etc. and shouldn't really be driving the car to 100% on safety grounds.

Cloudgazer
May 19, 2006, 04:06 AM
Speedometer generaly measure road speed tachometers(US) or revcounter(UK) measure engine speed.

A large revcounter is useful in a sports car on a track because the driver will want input as to when to change gear for optimium power when he's racing hard with a helmut on etc. and when he doesn't care about his road speed, as long as he's going faster than the other guys it's not relevant, which is why the revcounter takes prime position. In a road car the speedo useually takes the prime spot cause you need to keep to speed limits etc. and shouldn't really be driving the car to 100% on safety grounds.

True enough - but I still drive using the rev counter, as I know exaclt what speed my car is doing at what gear at what revs.
As for speed limits - well, its much easier to break the rules of the road here in Africa than it is in the US.
Not safe I know - but there you have it.
:D

mpw
May 19, 2006, 07:19 AM
I don't even think the 911 has a larger tach than speedo. Maybe the Carrera GT or whatever it is. I don't know much about Porsche...
Standard 911
http://www.porsche.com/filestore.aspx/normal.jpg?pool=germany&type=galleryimage&id=4dd5c934-1e1d-431e-be83-e2bd2b7037d8&lang=none&filetype=normal

...Come to think of it my friend has a Civic with a much much larger tach than speedo... but it's aftermarket. And it looks silly
The standard Honda Civic comes with a tachometer bigger than the speedo too.

dpaanlka
May 19, 2006, 09:21 AM
Standard 911
http://www.porsche.com/filestore.aspx/normal.jpg?pool=germany&type=galleryimage&id=4dd5c934-1e1d-431e-be83-e2bd2b7037d8&lang=none&filetype=normal


The standard Honda Civic comes with a tachometer bigger than the speedo too.

Interesting.... I have never noticed this, even while driving one. What the gauges look like within the cluster is hardly something that would turn me off of the whole car, unless it was a Nissan or Pontiac, whose gauges look ridiculous.

Cloudgazer
May 19, 2006, 10:10 AM
Interesting.... I have never noticed this, even while driving one. What the gauges look like within the cluster is hardly something that would turn me off of the whole car, unless it was a Nissan or Pontiac, whose gauges look ridiculous.

Funny. Thats what i was trying to get at earlier.
To me, the cluster is one of the most important features as its the thing I'll be looking at most.

dpaanlka
May 19, 2006, 10:18 AM
the cluster is one of the most important features as its the thing I'll be looking at most

That's a very bizzare priority you have.

"No, I don't care about horsepower, fuel efficiency, safety, refinement, or the general overal design of the car... show me the cluster!"

Cloudgazer
May 19, 2006, 10:24 AM
That's a very bizzare priority you have.

"No, I don't care about horsepower, fuel efficiency, safety, refinement, or the general overal design of the car... show me the cluster!"

LOL, no don't get me wrong.
All the things you mentioned are important. Absolutely.
But from an aesthetic point of view its very important.
Like I said its the part of the car I'll be looking at most - its got to be appealing.
And I like pretty things. I like the look of my powerbook. Its aesthetically more pleasing than any other laptop I've seen.
Its obviously not the most important feature - but it does help. :D

Or are you just mad cause I said the Saab interior was stupid?? :D
*runs for the hills*

devilot
May 19, 2006, 10:24 AM
That's a very bizzare priority you have.:D I agree, especially since there are aftermarket gauges (and always a couple that can match the OEM look).

dpaanlka
May 19, 2006, 10:30 AM
Or are you just mad cause I said the Saab interior was stupid?

I actually forgot that you said that, but thanks for reminding me (to get back on track). I'm not wowed by car companies totally new interiors every 4 years that still aren't well suited for performance driving as the Saab interior is. Shinier, flashier, bulbous, jagged, pointy, swoopy, etc... does not a good interior make if it does not focus on the driver. The Saab interior has held up for 20 years and is still considered by many to be an excellent interior, especially now that most car companies have gone to something as formless and soul-less as this:

radiantm3
May 19, 2006, 04:52 PM
Yeah, I'm sorry dude. No matter how you try to make it sound, I'm quite confident that Hondas don't quite compare to BMWs and Saabs. It just doesn't work that way.

Aren't Saabs FWD? FWD and high performance do not go together. I'd take a Honda S2000 over a Saab any day. That is more of a driving enthusiast's car than a saab or half of the BMW lineup. You can't judge cars based soley on their make. That's like saying all of a certain race are all the same. Honda makes cars like the accord and civic to fit one market, and then there's the NSX, S2000 and Integra Type R (I know it's FWD, but it's basically a track car).

I never understood why some people are so set on one car make. A good example is between BMW and Honda. If I wanted a Sport Sedan, I'd buy an M3 (BMW) or even a 330 over any of the honda/acura cars. If I wanted a roadster, I'd get the S2000 (Honda) over the Z4, no questions asked. No one car make builds the best of every kind of car.

dpaanlka
May 19, 2006, 05:14 PM
Aren't Saabs FWD? FWD and high performance do not go together.

You're right. Front wheel drive Hondas are terrible, especially when these kids soup up their Civics and think they're suddenly driving Porsches. However, clearly you have never driven a high performance Saab, or any high performance FWD (yes, they do exist - sadly not very common in the United States). You *think* it's an enthusiasts car, because Honda tells you it is, as does SuperStreet magazine... continued below.

I'd take a Honda S2000 over a Saab any day. That is more of a driving enthusiast's car than a saab or half of the BMW lineup. You can't judge cars based soley on their make.

See, that's the typical Honda fan rhetoric. "Honda can do no wrong! If it's Honda, it must be the best!" However, if you were truly as open as you claim to be, you'd realize cars such as the Saturn SKY Redline, which cost 6 grand less than the S2000, features equally good handling, and is far, far, far more powerful, would be the better choice. Same goes for the (now out of production) Saab 9-3 Viggen hatch. But you don't know, because you're too worried about trying to convince BMW and Saab drivers and drivers of basically every other make that your Honda is just as good. :rolleyes: Don't preach to people who drive real cars. You just further solidify our beliefs.

If you took a REAL good look at Honda, you'd realize several things:

All of their "trucks" blow. If you can even call them that. Their "sports" cars are getting very long in the tooth, especially in light of current competitor's models. The NSX, for example, is easily beaten by a lowly Ford Cobra that costs 1/4 the price. And I already made the above mention of GM's latest roadsters which excel past the S2000 in every way, and are cheaper to boot. Their Luxury brand is a joke compared even to those of the other Japanese brands (Nissan's Infiniti and Toyota's Lexus), and that isn't saying much. Acura isn't taken seriously by Luxury car buyers, it has fallen into sortof of a sad "near-Luxury" market not unsimilar to that of Volkswagen. The only difference is, Volkswagen wants to be that way, Honda doesn't. (Why do you think Acura only exists in the United States? Because it would never survive anywhere else). Finally, they're losing their brand loyalty among import tuners because the classic Civic has been recently morphed into a rather feminine car emphasizing economy, and ugliness. Effect? Nobody wants it. Even the Civic Si really doesn't cut it anymore compared to competition from Volkswagen, Saturn, and Chevrolet. All of those brands have much more powerful cars in the same price range.

blackfox
May 19, 2006, 05:24 PM
Aren't Saabs FWD? FWD and high performance do not go together. .
Well, it's a question of taste. Saab for much of it's life, had a unique driving experience being FWD and turbocharged. You often got a (slight) delay of power and a lot of torque steer (modern saabs have solved both issues). My 9000 has a bit of both, but it is a fun driving experience, once you get used to it - though it is not for everyone.

Although many people sneer at such things in a performance car, it commanded considerable enjoyment and loyalty among the saab faithful - so who's to say?

mpw
May 20, 2006, 02:12 AM
...Why do you think Acura only exists in the United States?...
Could it be that only the Americans would fall for a company changing the badges on a car to bump up its value? Most people I know don't think of Lexus as a brand, just one of Toyota's trim levels.

A lot of what you say is just your opinion but you're saying it in such a way that you sound as bad as those idiot Mac lovers that have to type M$ Winblows etc.

If YOU don't like any particular car fine, move on but you've said stuff in this thread which is just bollocks and you can't claim to be an authority in the field so why not just let people who like Hyundais etc. drive them without bitching about it?

dpaanlka
May 20, 2006, 03:22 AM
Could it be that only the Americans would fall for a company changing the badges on a car to bump up its value?

You're right. Sadly, that is the reason.

If YOU don't like any particular car fine, move on but you've said stuff in this thread which is just bollocks and you can't claim to be an authority in the field so why not just let people who like Hyundais etc. drive them without bitching about it?

I'm letting my opinion be known. How can you tell what my attitude is, this is just text! This person just told me BMWs and Saabs and every other expensive make is stupid because Honda has the S2000. I feel obligated to respond fully to that. If you don't like this thread why do you keep responding to it? It cant be for pics, nobody posted their pics in a long time.

japasneezemonk
May 20, 2006, 03:39 AM
Aren't Saabs FWD? FWD and high performance do not go together. I'd take a Honda S2000 over a Saab any day. That is more of a driving enthusiast's car than a saab or half of the BMW lineup.

Hahaha S2000 I am laughing as I type. S2000 are made for aging males trying to get a date with a 15 year old. You might wanna get your hands on a R32! or an R36 in 2007. Honda's have minimal amounts of torque, now remember this, horsepower sell's cars, and torque wins races. I would like for you to explain to me why FWD cars and performance dont go together??? Have you ever driven in a road course in a FWD car???? You get much better handling in a FWD vehicle than with an RWD.

by the way, torque steer and wheel hop can be eliminated with an LSD and a good set of tires.

japasneezemonk
May 20, 2006, 04:02 AM
I'd take a Honda S2000 over a Saab any day. That is more of a driving enthusiast's car than a saab or half of the BMW lineup.

A honda S2000 is a driving enthusiast car?????:eek: For who? The Financially challenged. I would buy a BMW M coupe over that piece of plastic on wheels any day. http://www.canadiandriver.com/photos/2006/naias/bmw/z4coupe/z4coupe_1.jpg:D
Now this is a car with Big Huevos.:p

andym172
May 20, 2006, 04:40 AM
A honda S2000 is a driving enthusiast car?????:eek: For who? The Financially challenged. I would buy a BMW M coupe over that piece of plastic on wheels any day. http://www.canadiandriver.com/photos/2006/naias/bmw/z4coupe/z4coupe_1.jpg:D
Now this is a car with Big Huevos.:p

The Honda S2K is definitely a drivers car. It may be less so than some cars, and more so than others, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it is a drivers car :)

I like the Z4 Coupe, but some of those lines are very very untidy IMO. Notably the crease by the side badge, and on the doors.

dpaanlka
May 20, 2006, 04:47 AM
Now this is a car with Big Huevos.:p

That is an extremely awesome BMW. I can't believe anybody would pick an S2000 over that. Or this car... hopefully something similar in apperance will roll out for Saab in the near future (even though GM already said theres no way the crazy canopy will make it).

dpaanlka
May 20, 2006, 04:49 AM
by the way, torque steer and wheel hop can be eliminated with an LSD and a good set of tires.

Thankfully found in all Saabs and most other expensive FWD performance cars.

mpw
May 20, 2006, 05:34 AM
...I'm letting my opinion be known. How can you tell what my attitude is, this is just text! This person just told me BMWs and Saabs and every other expensive make is stupid because Honda has the S2000. I feel obligated to respond fully to that. If you don't like this thread why do you keep responding to it? It cant be for pics, nobody posted their pics in a long time.
Maybe you didn't read his post as I did where he stated that he'd choose a Honda S2000 over a Saab, and where he also said that in a straight fight between a Honda Sport Saloon and a BMW M3 he'd go with the BMW, but still choose the S2000 over the Z4.

You then came back slating the Honda range en masse and making out like he was a fan-boy for them, which is clearly not the case from what I've read here.

That someone might choose the a M3 at around twice the price of the Honda isn't really a surprise and doesn't say a lot if BMW's offerings are being considered next to cars half their cost. Likewise he says he'd choose the S2000 over the cheaper Z4 again no great shocker.

He goes as far as to state he doesn't see why people get hung up on the badge that a car is wearing and proves his point while you bash Honda full stop.

...That is an extremely awesome BMW. I can't believe anybody would pick an S2000 over that...
Why not? Maybe they want a car they can drive today, the Z4 shown is a concept car the production version of which is not yet available, there are plenty of concepts and cars that exist only in my head that I'd choose before any Honda/Saab/BMW but is that really relevant?

Why do I post? Just trying to help, you don't appear to be getting what others are talking about and some of my post were just to clarify facts.

I don't like seeing people judge car (or computers) by the badge they wear, unless it's a Peugeot, 'cause they're all ****.

quagmire
May 20, 2006, 09:34 AM
That is an extremely awesome BMW. I can't believe anybody would pick an S2000 over that. Or this car... hopefully something similar in apperance will roll out for Saab in the near future (even though GM already said theres no way the crazy canopy will make it).

What I heard is that the Aero-X will make it to production on the RWD Kappa Platform. Of course it will have the typical doors and windshield and not that cool canopy. Of course things can still change and GM can cancel it, but so far it has the green light from what I heard. And I hate those people on the mind set of, " :insert brand here: can do no wrong and every vehicle they make rocks and it is perfect!" But, I don't think the person you're accusing of having it, doesn't have it. I have seen much worse on the GM forum I go to. Those people are Pro-GM, Pro-Ford, or Pro-Import.

dpaanlka
May 20, 2006, 10:56 AM
Well, in conclusion, if you think a Honda S2000 is a "great deal" then you should think the Saturn SKY Redline and Pontiac Solstice GXP are even better deals since they cost less, look better, and are way more powerful.

If that person had said "I would chose the SKY Redline" over the Z4 then I could understand, because the SKY Redline (unlike the S2000) is actually in the same power class as the Z4, and costs even less than the S2000. Theh S2000 is far overpriced and far underpowered for anyone to consider that a real value, whether or not you compare it to a BMW Z4 or a SKY Redline.

He also says he would *choose* the S2000 as if he actually was also considering the BMW Z4 M.

And it's true, I hate all things Honda. Mostly because Honda drivers (and fans) don't make any sense. For every Honda that exists, there is a better option elsewhere. I want everyone to know this before they buy Hondas based on biased magazine reviews or what a bunch of teenagers tell them. I don't know how it is elsewehre in the world, but in the United States this is a huge problem in my opinion. People buy Hondas all the time and act like they're somethinge else, whether it be that horrid minivan-based Ridgeline pickup truck, an S2000 BMW wannabe, or any of the overpriced Acuras that only exist in the United States because of how unintelligent many of my fellow Americans seem to be.

radiantm3
May 20, 2006, 10:57 AM
Hahaha S2000 I am laughing as I type. S2000 are made for aging males trying to get a date with a 15 year old. You might wanna get your hands on a R32! or an R36 in 2007. Honda's have minimal amounts of torque, now remember this, horsepower sell's cars, and torque wins races.

Actually, I was just trying to make a point using honda as an example since people keep bashing honda and praising any german built car. I'm not a honda fanboy. I have never even owned one before. I used the S2000 because it is a roadster and the Z4 is a roadster as well. The R32 is a very heavy AWD sedan. Sure performs well, but I think it's safe to say that you'd have more fun taking an s2000 around a track than the skyline.

The s2000 has been reviewed and compared to the nsx countless times by professional drivers.

Again, nowhere did I state that I thought it was the best car money can buy. I was just trying to make a point.


I would like for you to explain to me why FWD cars and performance dont go together??? Have you ever driven in a road course in a FWD car???? You get much better handling in a FWD vehicle than with an RWD.

by the way, torque steer and wheel hop can be eliminated with an LSD and a good set of tires.
Now you really proved that you don't know what you are talking about. Better handling on a FWD than RWD? Heard about understeer lately? I know there are some really great handling FWD cars, but they are in no way better than a properly balanced RWD car. Just for the record, I recently owned a pretty well modded 2000 celica gts 6speed which was a very lightweight and great handling fwd car. I had a race clutch, aluminum flywheel and torsen type LSD as well (among other things). To say it would out-handle a balanced RWD car is ridiculous. Steering and driving from the same 2 wheels = handicap.

radiantm3
May 20, 2006, 10:59 AM
He also says he would *choose* the S2000 as if he actually was also considering the BMW Z4 M.

Funny, nowhere in my post did I say Z4 M. I don't even believe they are available in the US yet.

radiantm3
May 20, 2006, 11:03 AM
I'm letting my opinion be known. How can you tell what my attitude is, this is just text! This person just told me BMWs and Saabs and every other expensive make is stupid because Honda has the S2000. I feel obligated to respond fully to that. If you don't like this thread why do you keep responding to it? It cant be for pics, nobody posted their pics in a long time.

How old are you? You have completely and utterly misunderstood my post. Please re-read it a few times again and come up with a better conclusion. I could have sworn the only thing I actually said was that the S2000 was a better driver's car than the Z4. Nowhere did I state that one make was better than another. That's what you were doing.

dpaanlka
May 20, 2006, 11:24 AM
How old are you? You have completely and utterly misunderstood my post.

Well, if that was you're intention, then forgive me, for I really despise Honda and tend to react that way when anybody mentions Honda as beingn *better* than anybody else.

the S2000 was a better driver's car than the Z4

I still take issue with this, however. Honda is not a sports car company. The S2000 cannot be compared to BMW. Especially the S2000. I hate this car, mostly because of how overpriced and underpowered it is, and yet I still see them driving all over the place; people clearly aren't doing their research, but rather impulse-buying based soley on obviously biased reviews and testaments.

A good friend of mine has an S2000, replacing his *souped up* Acura Integra. I am not unfamiliar with these cars, and am not simply attacking them based on what I read. As a current Saab owner, and former BMW, Camaro, and Saturn owner, I really find these cars to be the worst value in the history of sports cars. I fear I may physically attack the next person that trys and tells me to my face what an "awesome car" the S2000 is, especially those that have never even driven one.

EDIT: Same goes for the NSX. Overpriced and underpowered.

edesignuk
May 20, 2006, 11:35 AM
S2000 is 240BHP. Oh yeah, waaaaay under powered.

The car was built to celebrate Hondas 50th birthday, they had their F1 engineers design the 2ltr VTEC engine.

Honda were a massive success in F1, Williams best years were Honda powered. Don't tell me Honda don't know what they're doing.

Jeremy Clarkson would take the S2000 over a Z4 or a Boxster.

PS. I'm selling my Mini Cooper and buying an S2000 as we speak.

andym172
May 20, 2006, 11:42 AM
EDIT: Same goes for the NSX. Overpriced and underpowered.

But possibly one of the best handling cars ever made. Better than any recent-time road going Ferrari for example (barring the 'F's').

It sounds to me that you dislike the culture surrounding the S2000 rather than the car itself. The car is an excellent little car, not one I'd choose myself, but one I appreciate all the same...

dpaanlka
May 20, 2006, 11:44 AM
S2000 is 240BHP. Oh yeah, waaaaay under powered.

Sigh... horsepower is only half the story in the car world. Look at the torque rating for the S2000. Horsepower is great, but it's torque that accelerates a car. Buying a car based soley on horsepower is like buying a computer based soley on megahertz. Similarly horsepower is hyped up in the car industry, just as mhz is in the computer industry.

I'll use my favorite examples to illustrate:

2006 Honda S2000
Price: ~$32,000
Horsepower: 237
Ft/lb Torque: 162 !!!!

2007 Saturn SKY Redline
Price: ~$26,000
Horsepower: 260
Ft/lb Torque: 260

Both cars are roughly the same size and weight. Unfortunately for edesignuk, Saturns are not available in that country. However, the very similar Pontiac Solstice GXP may be (I'm not sure if Pontiac exists in the UK). Moral of the story is, shop around, and get all the facts about a car.

EDIT: I believe that Saturn is going to be sold as an Opel or Vauxhall in Europe.

andym172
May 20, 2006, 11:49 AM
Moral of the story is, shop around, and get all the facts about a car.

How about a taste of your own medicine? What about the handling of the car? Power isn't everything...

dpaanlka
May 20, 2006, 11:51 AM
How about a taste of your own medicine? What about the handling of the car? Power isn't everything...

The handling is comparable to the S2000. The "Redline" is Saturn's performance marque, and gets much refinement and tuning by GM, including an entirely replaced and stiffer suspension system, stiffened body, larger and wider rims with better gripping tires and much testing at Nürenburg. This car is a beast and will surely hand the S2000's ass to itself, whether in a drag race or on a twisting mountain road. All for roughly $6k less.

dpaanlka
May 20, 2006, 11:59 AM
I almost forgot to mention the most fun part about the Saturn SKY Redline: no unsuspecting S2000 owner is going to expect that from a Saturn, mostly due to the over-hyping of Honda.

andym172
May 20, 2006, 12:06 PM
The handling is comparable to the S2000. The "Redline" is Saturn's performance marque, and gets much refinement and tuning by GM, including an entirely replaced and stiffer suspension system, stiffened body, larger and wider rims with better gripping tires and much testing at Nürenburg. This car is a beast and will surely hand the S2000's ass to itself, whether in a drag race or on a twisting mountain road. All for roughly $6k less.

I don't wish to be rude, but American car makers wouldn't know a good handling car if it hit them in the face. Stiffer suspension and wider rims do not necessarily make a good handling car. Also, having a cars set up based largely on having driven it at he Nurburgring is a dangerous game to play as the 'ring does not accurately simulate most peoples road driving.

Unless the "Redline" is very light weight (I'm talking Elise weight), then I can't see it handing the S2K's ass to itself as you so eloquently put it :)

As it stands, according to the press over here (I've not driven the Z4 so can't comment), the S2K is a better handling car than the Z4 but not the Boxster.
The engine is said to be a peach, despite its lack of torque. I myself prefer an engine with 'lazy power' (lots of torque) rather than rowing the car down the road (constantly having to change gear due to a narrow power band). I found the S2K to be ok in the respect, and a lot better than the Honda Civic Type R.

Horses for courses... :)

climhazzard85
May 20, 2006, 12:13 PM
Am I the only one who sees an issue with compairing a SATURN (or Pontiac for that matter) with a Honda? One is known for great reliability, the other makes cheap cars that are literally made out of plastic. I of course assume you Honda haters have driven the S2000 before making such comments about it, otherwise your opinions are invalid.


Additionally, I'm not saying the Sky Redline can't outperform the S2K, but Honda has proven reliability and resale value. This is like compairing a Neon SRT-4 to a WRX, sure the SRT-4 is "faster" and cheaper, but it's a damn Dodge Neon.

quagmire
May 20, 2006, 12:15 PM
EDIT: I believe that Saturn is going to be sold as an Opel or Vauxhall in Europe.

Saturn will pretty much= Opel in the U.S. The Aura is a rebadged Vectra, rumors are the Opel Astra will come over to the U.S to replace the Ion, etc. The Opel GT is Europes Kappa roadster.

quagmire
May 20, 2006, 12:35 PM
Am I the only one who sees an issue with compairing a SATURN (or Pontiac for that matter) with a Honda? One is known for great reliability, the other makes cheap cars that are literally made out of plastic. I of course assume you Honda haters have driven the S2000 before making such comments about it, otherwise your opinions are invalid.


Additionally, I'm not saying the Sky Redline can't outperform the S2K, but Honda has proven reliability and resale value. This is like compairing a Neon SRT-4 to a WRX, sure the SRT-4 is "faster" and cheaper, but it's a damn Dodge Neon.

You know in the 60-mid 80's Honda and Toyota had their quality problems? It was just in the mid 80's where they improved their quality. They couldn't have improved it at a better time, because Ford and GM were having their issues. Right now the Koreans are getting over their quality issues. I have had 2 Chevy Suburbans. A '96 and an '02. The '96 was at 81K miles when we traded it in for the '02. It was not because the '96 was breaking down POS. In matter of fact we had no problems with the '96. Not one. We traded it in to take advantage of the incentives that were going on during the Post-9/11 time period where people were afraid to travel. So far at 52K miles, the '02 Suburban has been quite reliable. No problems either so far. I also have a '06 Chevy Equinox. So far only one problem with a bearing that was fixed easily under warranty. Now, I have ridden in an Acura. My aunt and uncle has an Acura. Engine is smooth, extra and I am sure they get good fuel economy and have not had any major problems with it.

GM is turning around Pontiac with the G6, the future G8( RWD replacement for the Grand Prix), and Solstice. As stated above, Saturn will be rebadged Opel's sold in the U.S. So GM is turning around Saturn. I have confidence that they will since they turned around Cadillac. You won't give GM a chance to prove themselves. You won't go see that their quality and reliability have improved vastily. Why? Because just like any other American, they follow the brands. Honda as a brand has the reputation of Quality. So people flock there. Same with Toyota. Even though now, Toyota is having its problems now. A 100% increase of recalls seen in '05. The new 6 speed in the Camry being recalled already for the transmission not shifting into 2nd and 6th gear. Hell, people are falling for the Hybrid hype, even though you only really see a 5-10 MPG improvement over a gasoline only model if you drive the same way you do before you bought the Prius or any other hybrid.

Why Honda is profiting? Because they have only have like 4 platforms. Unlike the dozens Toyota, Ford, GM, and Chrysler has. Unlike Toyota, GM, Ford, and Chrysler where they make platforms for their intended purpose( like BOF for the trucks), Honda uses their unibody platform that underpins the Odyssey on the Ridgeline. Then goes and advertises it as a "Real" truck. A) It has no V8. B) It is unibody. Right, now good trucks that are dependable are Body on Frame. C) It can't do any real off roading. Its struts broke off when tried to see how it stacks up against the Silverado, Tundra, and F-150 off road. I kind of like the Ridgeline. Why? It takes all those Yuppies away who just want a truck to show to others that he is tough and has no intention of using the trucks to its full potiental.

climhazzard85
May 20, 2006, 12:40 PM
You know in the 60-mid 80's Honda and Toyota had their quality problems? It was just in the mid 80's where they improved their quality. They couldn't have improved it at a better time, because Ford and GM were having their issues. Right now the Koreans are getting over their quality issues. I have had 2 Chevy Suburbans. A '96 and an '02. The '96 was at 81K miles when we traded it in for the '02. It was not because the '96 was breaking down POS. In matter of fact we had no problems with the '96. Not one. We traded it in to take advantage of the incentives that were going on during the Post-9/11 time period where people were afraid to travel. So far at 52K miles, the '02 Suburban has been quite reliable. No problems either so far. I also have a '06 Chevy Equinox. So far only one problem with a bearing that was fixed easily under warranty. Now, I have ridden in an Acura. My aunt and uncle has an Acura. Engine is smooth, extra and I am sure they get good fuel economy and have not had any major problems with it.

Maybe we have different defintions of long term reliability, but 50-80k is nothing, I have seen numerous Hondas, Toyotas, and Nissans with well over 200, sometimes 300. As for the Korean cars, that is laughable, have you even driven one?

GM is turning around Pontiac with the G6, the future G8( RWD replacement for the Grand Prix), and Solstice. As stated above, Saturn will be rebadged Opel's sold in the U.S. So GM is turning around Saturn. I have confidence that they will since they turned around Cadillac. You won't give GM a chance to prove themselves. You won't go see that their quality and reliability have improved vastily. Why? Because just like any other American, they follow the brands. Honda as a brand has the reputation of Quality. So people flock there. Same with Toyota. Even though now, Toyota is having its problems now. A 100% increase of recalls seen in '05. The new 6 speed in the Camry being recalled already for the transmission not shifting into 2nd and 6th gear. Hell, people are falling for the Hybrid hype, even though you only really see a 5-10 MPG improvement over a gasoline only model if you drive the same way you do before you bought the Prius or any other hybrid.

Have you even driven the G6 yet??? It STILL has the same crappy GM feel, a slightly better interior, but really it is no different. Who is to say I won't give GM a chance? Their quality has NOT improved vastly, nor is it anywhere near Honda, Toyota, or Nissan.

I do agree, hybrids are extremely overhyped and a complete waste of money at this point, you pay way more for the stupid car to get barely better gas mileage.


Why Honda is profiting? Because they have only have like 4 platforms. Unlike the dozens Toyota, Ford, GM, and Chrysler has. Unlike Toyota, GM, Ford, and Chrysler where they make platforms for their intended purpose( like BOF for the trucks), Honda uses their unibody platform that underpins the Odyssey on the Ridgeline. Then goes and advertises it as a "Real" truck. A) It has no V8. B) It is unibody. Right, now good trucks that are dependable are Body on Frame. C) It can't do any real off roading. Its struts broke off when tried to see how it stacks up against the Silverado, Tundra, and F-150 off road. I kind of like the Ridgeline. Why? It takes all those Yuppies away who just want a truck to show to others that he is tough and has no intention of using the trucks to its full potiental.

This is getting off the previous topic, but I hate the Ridgeline also, buy a Titan.

andypress
May 20, 2006, 12:46 PM
Those Honda interiors look pretty good to me.

One of the coolest cars ever was the 1950 Buick Lesabre concept car. I wish this had been a production vehicle.
http://www.madle.org/lesabre2.jpg
http://www.madle.org/lesabre4.jpg

As for refinement in interiors, I think it is a matter of personal taste and preference. Everyone has a different idea of what they want on their dashboard and where it should be located. I personally do not like the new style of "cocoon" style dashes (like the second picture in the pro-Honda post just above) where each person in the front has their own little secluded space. I like a more open feel. The dash of my 92 Lesabre is a huge reason why I love my car. I first drove a 92 Lesabre back in 93 when I needed a rental car. I was at first kind of shocked at how different the dash looked and felt. It was offputting. It seemed almost TOO open and roomy near the dash. By the end of my rental I was in love with the car and wanted one from that time onward. The dash of a 92 Lesabre feels very flat and unobtrusive. It is a throwback to the dash designs of cars of the 40s-60s. Frankly they have ruined the dash with the more recent Lesabres, as well as the Lucernes and Lacrosses. The dashboards are not nearly as good to me. Granted, the speedometer is not very pretty and there is no tach or rpm gauge, but that is not my point. The overall shape is what I refer to.

There is certainly a cool factor in a snug dash (like the Saab interior above) and an ergonomic factor, but it is not for me.

Sorry to tell you, but this is probably the most unergonomic and ulgy dash that has ever existed(and look at those seats!): http://photos.ebizautos.com/5107/949149_47.jpg

dpaanlka
May 20, 2006, 02:39 PM
So to recap, the SKY Redline has:

A) More horsepower.
B) Way more torque.
C) Stiffer suspension.
D) Wider rims.
E) Better tires.
F) Similar weight to S2K.
G) Similar size to S2K.
H) $6K cheaper.
I) More modern design.

And you're still not satisfied? What the heck else do you want? Oh yeah, a Honda logo.

Oh yeah, and Saturn was known for making *boring* but reliable cars. Now they're making exciting reliable cars. I don't recall Saturns ever being prone to failure. Not any more so than Civics. Have seen plenty of Saturns with 200k on them. You people refuse to accept the fact that today's GM is making better cars than Honda can cheaply ship to the United States. GM lost it's way, but it's coming back with avengance.

quagmire
May 20, 2006, 03:05 PM
Maybe we have different defintions of long term reliability, but 50-80k is nothing, I have seen numerous Hondas, Toyotas, and Nissans with well over 200, sometimes 300. As for the Korean cars, that is laughable, have you even driven one?

Maybe you didn't read my post completely. 80K with NO problems. And 50K SO FAR( meaning anything can still happen). My definition of long term is if a vehicle passed 150K without major problems, that is a reliable vehicle. I have heard from the forums I go to GM's vehicles going to 200K+. Especially the trucks. I never said the Korean cars were the best quality you can get. I was just saying they are getting out of their quality problems. Yeah, the interior needs improving, etc. But, quality is improving.

Have you even driven the G6 yet??? It STILL has the same crappy GM feel, a slightly better interior, but really it is no different. Who is to say I won't give GM a chance? Their quality has NOT improved vastly, nor is it anywhere near Honda, Toyota, or Nissan.

Yes I have driven the G6. While the interior still has relatively cheap plastics, it has a nice and well put together feel. The "POS" Pushrod 3500 and 3900 VVT V6's are smooth as butter. Quiet, no course noise unlike the 3400 in my Equinox( Yes, the motor is a POS and should die within the next 3 years), and the suspension was very nice. Your bias towards Honda is not giving GM a chance. Their quality has vastly improved. Ever take a look at JD Power? Consumer Reports "scientific" research is flawed. One of the flaws is that they only survey the subscribers and GM fans refuse to sign up to CR due to their bias in their reviews. While I agree they are not to Toyota levels of quality, they are getting close.

This is getting off the previous topic, but I hate the Ridgeline also, buy a Titan.

Buy a Titan? While a good truck, bring in reliability and it goes downhill from there. It has a spotty reliability record so far along with Nissan overall. Me? I would rather buy a F-150 or the new 2007 GMT-900 Silverado or Sierra. Or hell, the current Silverado or Sierra.

yg17
May 20, 2006, 04:01 PM
So to recap, the SKY Redline has:

A) More horsepower.
B) Way more torque.
C) Stiffer suspension.
D) Wider rims.
E) Better tires.
F) Similar weight to S2K.
G) Similar size to S2K.
H) $6K cheaper.
I) More modern design.

And you're still not satisfied? What the heck else do you want? Oh yeah, a Honda logo.

Oh yeah, and Saturn was known for making *boring* but reliable cars. Now they're making exciting reliable cars. I don't recall Saturns ever being prone to failure. Not any more so than Civics. Have seen plenty of Saturns with 200k on them. You people refuse to accept the fact that today's GM is making better cars than Honda can cheaply ship to the United States. GM lost it's way, but it's coming back with avengance.

Yes, I'd want a Honda logo. Because I want Honda reliability, which GM will never match.

dpaanlka
May 20, 2006, 04:03 PM
Yes, I'd want a Honda logo. Because I want Honda reliability, which GM will never match.

I think the EcoTec has proven itself an extremely strong engine. But, you're free to have your opinions.

climhazzard85
May 20, 2006, 06:33 PM
Maybe you didn't read my post completely. 80K with NO problems. And 50K SO FAR( meaning anything can still happen). My definition of long term is if a vehicle passed 150K without major problems, that is a reliable vehicle. I have heard from the forums I go to GM's vehicles going to 200K+. Especially the trucks. I never said the Korean cars were the best quality you can get. I was just saying they are getting out of their quality problems. Yeah, the interior needs improving, etc. But, quality is improving.

Sure there are some GM trucks going over 200k, I won't argue with that. GM's truck engines (in general their V6's and V8's) are not bad at all. It is EVERYTHING ELSE they suck at.

Yes I have driven the G6. While the interior still has relatively cheap plastics, it has a nice and well put together feel. The "POS" Pushrod 3500 and 3900 VVT V6's are smooth as butter. Quiet, no course noise unlike the 3400 in my Equinox( Yes, the motor is a POS and should die within the next 3 years), and the suspension was very nice. Your bias towards Honda is not giving GM a chance. Their quality has vastly improved. Ever take a look at JD Power? Consumer Reports "scientific" research is flawed. One of the flaws is that they only survey the subscribers and GM fans refuse to sign up to CR due to their bias in their reviews. While I agree they are not to Toyota levels of quality, they are getting close.

They are NOWHERE close to Toyota quality. Vastly improved from what? They are still making cheap underperforming cars, and losing vasts amounts of money while doing so. Additionally, I do not care what JD Power says, I am telling you from personal experience. I have no damn bias towards Honda, I am speaking from experience, haven driven plenty of these cars on a daily basis. I do not even own a Honda at present time.

Buy a Titan? While a good truck, bring in reliability and it goes downhill from there. It has a spotty reliability record so far along with Nissan overall. Me? I would rather buy a F-150 or the new 2007 GMT-900 Silverado or Sierra. Or hell, the current Silverado or Sierra.

Where do you get this nonsense? The VK is one strong motor, and it's performance puts the other manufacturers to shame. The only reliablilty problem the Titan has is the rotor issue, which is taken care of at the dealership free of charge. I really don't think this is a big deal considering it's Nissan's first full size pickup.

climhazzard85
May 20, 2006, 06:44 PM
*Sighs* here we go again.
So to recap, the SKY Redline has:

A) More horsepower.
Out of a forced induction engine, what do you think will end up being more reliable, a Honda N/A engine, or a GM turbocharged engine.
B) Way more torque.
That is true, but once again it is sacrificing reliability.
C) Stiffer suspension.
Yes, because we all know that the sole component in good handling is having a stiff suspension.
D) Wider rims.
Uh...I can't believe this is even part of your arguement, change the rims if you want, most enthusiasts will do so anyway.

E) Better tires.
Same as above
F) Similar weight to S2K.
And?
G) Similar size to S2K.
And?
H) $6K cheaper.
It's a Saturn, what kind of resale value do you think it will have? Honestly man, come on. This is like compairing a Dell to a Mac, does that make sense to you?
I) More modern design.
This is completely subjective.

And you're still not satisfied? What the heck else do you want? Oh yeah, a Honda logo.

A reliable car that doesn't say Saturn on it. You are the type who would buy an SRT-4 aren't you?

Oh yeah, and Saturn was known for making *boring* but reliable cars. Now they're making exciting reliable cars. I don't recall Saturns ever being prone to failure. Not any more so than Civics. Have seen plenty of Saturns with 200k on them. You people refuse to accept the fact that today's GM is making better cars than Honda can cheaply ship to the United States. GM lost it's way, but it's coming back with avengance.

Have you driven a saturn, and then driven a Civic? Please, know what you are talking about before spewing off this BS. GM is doing horrible, as well as they should be. You can't make cheap crap and get away with it forever.

mpw
May 20, 2006, 07:17 PM
...EDIT: I believe that Saturn is going to be sold as an Opel or Vauxhall in Europe.
I hate to continue pointing out the numerous flaws in your arguments but your the one digging your own hole.

While the Saturn will be on sale in Europe under GM's Opel/Vauxhall badging it's design is not able to accommodate right hand drive so it's going to be a none starter for people in the UK, Channel Islands, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Malta etc. where Honda market the S2000.

Remember we came in to this argument based on ergonomics, and I think you'll find having the driver on the wrong side of the car is a pretty flawed design ergonomically.

mpw
May 20, 2006, 07:43 PM
...I'll use my favorite examples to illustrate:

2006 Honda S2000
Price: ~$32,000
Horsepower: 237
Ft/lb Torque: 162 !!!!

2007 Saturn SKY Redline
Price: ~$26,000
Horsepower: 260
Ft/lb Torque: 260...

I know you aren't particularly bothered by the practicality of a car but availability should at least be a consideration the CURRENTLY available SKY compares to the Honda like this.

2006 Honda S2000
Price: ~$32,000
Horsepower: 237
Ft/lb Torque: 162

2007 Saturn SKY Redline
Price: ~$24,000
Horsepower: 177
Ft/lb Torque: 166

Ooo that 4lbFt of torque is going to make up for the 60bhp deficit isn't it??

And unless you've driven these as yet unavailable cars your only taking manufactures or press reports word, which is what you were bemoaning people of only a few posts ago.

quagmire
May 20, 2006, 10:17 PM
I hate to continue pointing out the numerous flaws in your arguments but your the one digging your own hole.

While the Saturn will be on sale in Europe under GM's Opel/Vauxhall badging it's design is not able to accommodate right hand drive so it's going to be a none starter for people in the UK, Channel Islands, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Malta etc. where Honda market the S2000.

Remember we came in to this argument based on ergonomics, and I think you'll find having the driver on the wrong side of the car is a pretty flawed design ergonomically.

It is the exact opposite actually. Saturn will be rebadged Opel's. As I said in my posts above, the Saturn Sky is a rebadged Opel GT. The Saturn Aura is a rebadged Vectra, and there is a rumor of the Opel Astra coming here to the U.S as a Saturn. I do believe, which I would need confirmation from a member in the UK, Opels are right hand drive. The only GM car that I know of in Europe that is left hand drive is the Corvette due to the Y-Body would need extensive redoing to make it right hand drive capable.

mark!
May 20, 2006, 10:34 PM
Uhm about this whole saturn thing...

If this Saturn is not made of plastic, &&&& the leather isn't CRAP then maybe it's okay.

quagmire
May 20, 2006, 10:42 PM
Uhm about this whole saturn thing...

If this Saturn is not made of plastic, &&&& the leather isn't CRAP then maybe it's okay.

And Saturn will be using all sheetmetal for their new cars. So when the Vue is redesigned in '08, it will dump the plastic exterior. Same thing with the Ion. The Sky and Aura use sheet metal.

mark!
May 20, 2006, 11:03 PM
Cool....I guess?

I still don't like their leather, they are doing interesting things now but there's no way I would get one.

munkees
May 21, 2006, 01:27 AM
[quotw]

Have you driven a saturn, and then driven a Civic? Please, know what you are talking about before spewing off this BS. GM is doing horrible, as well as they should be. You can't make cheap crap and get away with it forever.[/QUOTE]

I driven a civic, it was a BOS, i could not believe it, after all the hype and seen all the people that own them, i was very dissapointed. I must say the GM cars I have driven are not bad, yes the nissian and toyotas drive alot nicer. In fact the toyota / nissan drive alot nicer than my bmw 535i.

Saturns drive nice, also they hold there value really well, which i was supprised.

munkees
May 21, 2006, 01:31 AM
I do believe, which I would need confirmation from a member in the UK, Opels are right hand drive. The only GM car that I know of in Europe that is left hand drive is the Corvette due to the Y-Body would need extensive redoing to make it right hand drive capable.

My guess you never been outside of the UK, if you go to germany where lots of opels are made, you only see left hand side, in fact the whole of mainland euope, uk/ireland is left handside.

The astra has been released in the usa before as the bellvue it was a BOS.

quagmire
May 21, 2006, 01:55 AM
My guess you never been outside of the UK, if you go to germany where lots of opels are made, you only see left hand side, in fact the whole of mainland euope, uk/ireland is left handside.

The astra has been released in the usa before as the bellvue it was a BOS.

I have never been outside of North America. I am American, so thats why I didn't know where the driver wheel is on Opels.

mpw
May 21, 2006, 05:09 AM
It is the exact opposite actually. Saturn will be rebadged Opel's. As I said in my posts above, the Saturn Sky is a rebadged Opel GT. ...
Wrong again I believe. The Saturn SKY concept appeared in the US in 2005 and was first sold in 2005, the Opel GT was unveiled in 2006 in Europe and will go on sale LHD only in 2007. I'd say that makes the Opel a re-badged Saturn.

KC9AIC
May 21, 2006, 06:49 AM
I know you aren't particularly bothered by the practicality of a car but availability should at least be a consideration the CURRENTLY available SKY compares to the Honda like this.

2006 Honda S2000
Price: ~$32,000
Horsepower: 237
Ft/lb Torque: 162

2007 Saturn SKY Redline
Price: ~$24,000
Horsepower: 177
Ft/lb Torque: 166

Ooo that 4lbFt of torque is going to make up for the 60bhp deficit isn't it??

And unless you've driven these as yet unavailable cars your only taking manufactures or press reports word, which is what you were bemoaning people of only a few posts ago.

You're quoting figures for the plain-vanilla, naturally aspirated Saturn Sky. Which is not the car being discussed.

Yes, not many people have driven the Sky Redline, which will have the same engine as the 2007 Pontiac Solstice GXP. The figures quoted above are, indeed only "the manufacturer's word", but GM has not been known for exaggerating horsepower (it underrated the last-generation Camaro), and has shown that the Ecotec is capable of producing 1000 hp.

mpw
May 21, 2006, 08:36 AM
You're quoting figures for the plain-vanilla, naturally aspirated Saturn Sky. Which is not the car being discussed.

Yes, not many people have driven the Sky Redline, which will have the same engine as the 2007 Pontiac Solstice GXP. The figures quoted above are, indeed only "the manufacturer's word", but GM has not been known for exaggerating horsepower (it underrated the last-generation Camaro), and has shown that the Ecotec is capable of producing 1000 hp.
Read the thread fully and you'll see that this started because of some Honda hater saying that Hondas weren't worthy cars and that people who bought them based on magazine articles were idiots, although I might be paraphrasing. The same poster has used two examples to compare to the Honda S2000 to prove his point, trouble is neither of the cars he's used are in production so his point isn't really valid or at least only as valid as a comparison of next years Honda saloon against 5year old BMW's.

All I've tried to do is point out the flaws in what some posters have pointed out, I don't have a problem with anybody not liking or liking any car they want but I don't like someone saying someone is an idiot for liking a car without backing up their argument, which 99% of the time they can't.

I don't think anyone has been mindlessly bashing any manufacturer other than Honda and I don't see why?

quagmire
May 21, 2006, 10:28 AM
Wrong again I believe. The Saturn SKY concept appeared in the US in 2005 and was first sold in 2005, the Opel GT was unveiled in 2006 in Europe and will go on sale LHD only in 2007. I'd say that makes the Opel a re-badged Saturn.

This is my weakness really. Talking about GM Europe. Since I am in the U.S. But, besides the GT, Saturns will be rebadged Opels.

ITASOR
May 21, 2006, 10:57 AM
I remember this thread being called post a "picture of your car" not "argument about your car".

spinne1
May 21, 2006, 11:07 AM
Sorry to tell you, but this is probably the most unergonomic and ulgy dash that has ever existed(and look at those seats!): http://photos.ebizautos.com/5107/949149_47.jpg

Indeed it is unergonomic. As for ugly I thought the same thing when I first rented one in 1992. I was a bit shaken. A few days later it had grown on me to where I REALLY liked it. It just feels open. You can put a person in the middle of the front seat and they can have a reasonable ride (it's not GREAT, but doable. If they are overweight--forget it.). As for those seats, yes they are hideous but my and my wife's LeSabres are both cloth and not like that (I much prefer cloth). That steering wheel in the pic is also wrapped in some after market thing, which I think is very ugly. Anyhow, I LIKE this dash alot.

jaysmith
May 21, 2006, 06:02 PM
My 1987 Buick Grand National.

Click (http://www.buickstreet.com/images/richs-87gn-main.jpg)
easily my favourite car. i plan for it to be my first as well. specs?

CompUser
May 21, 2006, 07:01 PM
Interior Pics of my mom's car.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/ErikCT060/991898_36.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/ErikCT060/991898_28.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/ErikCT060/991898_29.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/ErikCT060/991898_30.jpg


Some people don't like the brown leather but my mom does and I think its not too bad. There are very few cars with that color of seats.

FadeToBlack
May 22, 2006, 01:13 AM
Interior Pics of my mom's car.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/ErikCT060/991898_36.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/ErikCT060/991898_28.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/ErikCT060/991898_29.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/ErikCT060/991898_30.jpg


Some people don't like the brown leather but my mom does and I think its not too bad. There are very few cars with that color of seats.

I LOVE brown leather! NICE!

cplusON3R
May 22, 2006, 02:28 AM
Interior Pics of my mom's car.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/ErikCT060/991898_36.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/ErikCT060/991898_28.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/ErikCT060/991898_29.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/ErikCT060/991898_30.jpg


Some people don't like the brown leather but my mom does and I think its not too bad. There are very few cars with that color of seats.


mmm... Touareg.. good times indeed. did she get it with the air suspension?

Dr_Maybe
May 22, 2006, 03:21 AM
Interior Pics of my mom's car.


You heart a lamp? I don't get it. Please explain.

Have they started selling the V10 TDI in the US yet?

CompUser
May 22, 2006, 06:01 AM
mmm... Touareg.. good times indeed. did she get it with the air suspension?

Yea, you can see the little knob for it on the right side of the center consule. Its makes a comfortable ride and is really fun to play with.

CompUser
May 22, 2006, 06:04 AM
You heart a lamp? I don't get it. Please explain.

Have they started selling the V10 TDI in the US yet?

"I love....lamp
I love... rug
I love... desk"

"Brick are you just picking random things in the room and say that you love them"

~Anchorman the Movie

(the lines are something like that)


They used to sell the V10 here, but then they stopped. My mom has the V8, my dad though the V6 was to small for that heavy of a car. The V6 and V8 get almost the same fuel economy. Hopefully they will bring back the V10 and why not the W8 Passat.

kjr39
May 22, 2006, 07:52 AM
I remember this thread being called post a "picture of your car" not "argument about your car".

Actually, this is the "quote stats about cars you don't own thread." The "argument about your car" thead is three over.

Thanks for playing.

Cloudgazer
May 22, 2006, 09:29 AM
Well, as of today i don't own a car.
:(
I sold my beloved Karmann Ghia. I feel like crying!

At least i still got my Vespa (see in the background)

My next car will definately have all the 20th and 21st century goodies:
ABS, airbags, Aircon, powersteering, etc.....

nived
May 23, 2006, 12:07 PM
My beloved VR6... well beloved at least until I get the A4.

mpw
May 23, 2006, 12:09 PM
My beloved VR6... well beloved at least until I get the A4.
Have you got jacked-up suspension on that thing?

iGary
May 23, 2006, 12:11 PM
Have you got jacked-up suspension on that thing?

It's 4X4. :D

nived
May 23, 2006, 12:15 PM
Have you got jacked-up suspension on that thing?

The suspension is stock, it looks horrible with those wheels, looked better with the RC's. I'd love to throw out $1k for coilovers, but I don't plan on keeping it that much longer... seems like a bit of a waste.

Actually, that angle does make it look alot worse than it does in person.

EDIT: if I lowered it I'd have major problems with the streets here anyway. I've already gone through two oilpans and a dead animal ripped out all the plastic covering from underneath a few weeks back. I swear I'm not as bad of a driver as I sound.

cplusON3R
May 23, 2006, 07:31 PM
The suspension is stock, it looks horrible with those wheels, looked better with the RC's. I'd love to throw out $1k for coilovers, but I don't plan on keeping it that much longer... seems like a bit of a waste.

Actually, that angle does make it look alot worse than it does in person.

EDIT: if I lowered it I'd have major problems with the streets here anyway. I've already gone through two oilpans and a dead animal ripped out all the plastic covering from underneath a few weeks back. I swear I'm not as bad of a driver as I sound.


get a BPTD skidplate and slam that dub.. BPTD makes MK4 skidplates so pick one up.. you wont regret it. and +1 or +2 your wheels.. especially if you're running rubber that thin.

edit: cant spell

Chrispy
May 23, 2006, 08:38 PM
Good choice. I have the 3S also, in white. I <3 it.

I have a black 2006 Mazda 3 iTouring with moonroof and I LOVE it! A lot of fun to drive :)

shumster
May 23, 2006, 10:36 PM
Here's my Toyota Alphard - an MPV (people carrier) available (last time I checked) only in Japan, Hong Kong (where I am), Singapore and other Asian countries that a. are RHD and b. allow parallel imports

Great car, same smooth V6 as the Lexus ES300, and came with twin TV's and a massage chair for the middle left seat passenger.

Other models available have L/R cameras that are viewable when edging out of blind T-junctions, middle row seats that double as wheelchairs (they actually come out on an extendable arm and get put down on the pavement), rear suspension that bottoms out to allow wheelchairs to enter through the rear. Also comes in a hybrid version. A local reseller has even modified the interior to create a partitioned rear seat section, a la limos

These cars are now the defacto luxury car in Hong Kong, even more popular than the S-Class
48387

48388

48389

exeterbohemian
May 26, 2006, 12:14 AM
that's an old picture of me and my 2001 passat...

it's quite a nice car, actually. the turbo and the tiptronic transmission make it one heck of a ride.

Peyton
May 26, 2006, 12:31 AM
Here's my Toyota Alphard - an MPV (people carrier) available (last time I checked) only in Japan, Hong Kong (where I am), Singapore and other Asian countries that a. are RHD and b. allow parallel imports


Interesting, I've never seen that car before (being from USA) cool

chibianh
May 26, 2006, 02:57 PM
Interesting, I've never seen that car before (being from USA) cool

there are LOTS of cool cars us Americans will never see on our roads... even cars made by american companies.

ph0rce
May 26, 2006, 03:01 PM
Well, as of today i don't own a car.
:(
I sold my beloved Karmann Ghia. I feel like crying!

At least i still got my Vespa (see in the background)

My next car will definately have all the 20th and 21st century goodies:
ABS, airbags, Aircon, powersteering, etc.....

Just to say... i LOVE your VW! though i still got a good year and a half till i can drive, thats on my shortlist! get one shiped over from the states over the pond back here to the UK and then do it up nice maybe with a nice little Mac Mini in it :cool:

mpw
May 26, 2006, 07:36 PM
i got my new car this afternioon, ill post pics somtyime soon, not rifght now 'cause mim too drunk to operate the ca\mera let alone drive the shiny thing.

Saluki Alex
May 26, 2006, 10:41 PM
Im Mike, New Here. We have lots of Hondas :D!

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/Ty7840726/000_0888.jpg

Good Day.
Mike

I'm diggin the Kinky Friedman bumper sticker in the back window. :cool:

edesignuk
May 27, 2006, 09:14 AM
One of a couple of things to be putting a smile on my face, got my new car! *dances about*

Honda haters, ****. Thanks.

http://upload.yo-momma.net/uploads/images/MyS.jpg

ITASOR
May 27, 2006, 09:39 AM
Wow edesign, nice! How does it drive?

KC9AIC
May 27, 2006, 09:39 AM
One of a couple of things to be putting a smile on my face, got my new car! *dances about*

Honda haters, ****. Thanks.

<snip>

I'll admit that the S2000 is not my favorite car, but that's a fine looking automobile.

Congratulations on the purchase. I hope it thrills even more than the Mini.

edesignuk
May 27, 2006, 09:39 AM
Wow edesign, nice! How does it drive?Quickly :D

devilot
May 27, 2006, 10:13 AM
Congrats! That was quick... hmm, is that a stock antenna?! You know what you should do? You should go to an S2000 meet, steal someone elses black antenna, and send it to me. :D

edesignuk
May 27, 2006, 11:01 AM
Congrats! That was quick... hmm, is that a stock antenna?! You know what you should do? You should go to an S2000 meet, steal someone elses black antenna, and send it to me. :DNope, not stock, so I'm afraid I won't be pinching anything on your behalf! :p

jsw
May 27, 2006, 11:04 AM
Dude... why are you posting?!? Drive that bad boy and tell us about it later.

Well, maybe you got it a few weeks ago. ;) But, if it's brand-spanking new, I sure hope to see you absent from these forums frequently. God, I miss fast cars.

iBlue
May 27, 2006, 11:09 AM
Quickly :D


good answer. told you all about my thoughts on the car previously. ;) NICE! :D

edesignuk
May 27, 2006, 11:15 AM
Dude... why are you posting?!? Drive that bad boy and tell us about it later.Shame of it is, it WILL NOT STOP raining!! :mad: :(

edit: so now it's finally stopped raining (at 8-o-bloody-clock) and it'd be a nice drive, I've had a drink and can't! I'm cursed, in many ways.
good answer. told you all about my thoughts on the car previously. ;) NICE! :DTheeenk you ;) :D

mpw
May 27, 2006, 04:23 PM
One of a couple of things to be putting a smile on my face, got my new car! *dances about*

Honda haters, ****. Thanks.

http://upload.yo-momma.net/uploads/images/MyS.jpg
I assume you got that 2nd hand, please don't say you got it new and specified those headrests and badges.

Cool car though. I took one out on Friday, but didn't get to really exploit it, when I went to pick up my new car, a lowly Honda Civic pics will follow.

mfacey
May 27, 2006, 04:26 PM
That's an awesome car!

Have to imagine those plates were pretty pricey too! :eek:

edesignuk
May 27, 2006, 05:15 PM
I assume you got that 2nd hand, please don't say you got it new and specified those headrests and badges.duh, yeah, 2nd hand. Hell of a deal though, it's actually a 2001, but only has 6,200 miles on the clock!! I'm in the honeymoon period, I still like all the stuff™ he added. I actually really do like the red badges though :o I'll see about the headrests.Have to imagine those plates were pretty pricey too! :eek:
They were included!!! :D

mad jew
May 27, 2006, 05:27 PM
Shame of it is, it WILL NOT STOP raining!! :mad: :(


That's the weather driving was designed for. Drive it like it's stolen. :cool:

edesignuk
May 27, 2006, 05:29 PM
That's the weather driving was designed for. Drive it like it's stolen. :cool:er, nice idea, but no, these things are tail happy at the best of times, and I'm a wimp :o

mad jew
May 27, 2006, 05:46 PM
But you're Death? You'll be fine. :)

mpw
May 27, 2006, 05:47 PM
duh, yeah, 2nd hand. Hell of a deal though, it's actually a 2001, but only has 6,200 miles on the clock!! I'm in the honeymoon period, I still like all the stuff™ he added. I actually really do like the red badges though :o I'll see about the headrests...

The headrest have to go, as do the red wheel trims. I can live with the bonnet and tail badges being red, although it cheapens the car, and I'd want you to swap the boot-lid spoiler for the stock-option discreet item.

If it were me I'd sell that plate too.

edesignuk
May 27, 2006, 05:51 PM
The headrest have to go, as do the red wheel trims. I can live with the bonnet and tail badges being red, although it cheapens the car, and I'd want you to swap the boot-lid spoiler for the stock-option discreet item.

If it were me I'd sell that plate too.Well sheesh, thanks for your kind words.

Boot lid spoiler is OEM option, not some after market trash. I am selling that plate....to get the one with my initials at the end :p

Red wheel trims, I'll give you that, I also thought that too. I only picked the car up this morning though!

Platform
May 27, 2006, 11:19 PM
One of a couple of things to be putting a smile on my face, got my new car! *dances about*

Honda haters, ****. Thanks.



Great car, have u been above the magic 8000 rpm ?
Take it for a spin, and enjoy :D

munkees
May 28, 2006, 01:50 AM
Well, it is about time for me to post mine, here is my pride and joy, I get 25 MPG in this, in UK Gallons that is 29 MPG not bad for a 4X4, but it also how you drive, I don't drive over 55 MPH, it make a hugh difference.:D

Still my dream car is an M113A3 APC (tank) but it only get 3+ MPG

Bloo Ice
May 28, 2006, 03:58 AM
I sold my truck. No regrets. Much better now. And, for a 16 year old, not too bad.
2003 Pontiac Aztek

Let the soccer mom cracks begin

And, once I get my new carb in I'll be driving the 86 Honda Accord. With only 357000mi on the odo [that's not counting the 6 months the speedo/odo didn't work]

Edit: can't get the stupid pictures of the tek to show up as thumbnails, dunno why though.

mfacey
May 28, 2006, 04:35 AM
I sold my truck. No regrets. Much better now. And, for a 16 year old, not too bad.
2003 Pontiac Aztek

Let the soccer mom cracks begin

And, once I get my new carb in I'll be driving the 86 Honda Accord. With only 357000mi on the odo [that's not counting the 6 months the speedo/odo didn't work]

Edit: can't get the stupid pictures of the tek to show up as thumbnails, dunno why though.


No offense, but that is a truly revoltingly ugly car. My goodness.:eek:

It comes pretty close to the dreaded Fiat Multipla (which has thankfully now been updated to look slightly less hideous).

Rickay726
May 28, 2006, 03:10 PM
my ride. sorry im only 15. 16 in a month =p

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/9056/dsc018997fy.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

mpw
May 28, 2006, 05:59 PM
Just got this on Friday.

rickvanr
May 28, 2006, 06:07 PM
Just got this on Friday.

What is that? Is it an American only model a la the Passport?

I've never seen one of those, and I work next to a Honda dealer.

mpw
May 28, 2006, 06:09 PM
Is that an American only model a la the Passport?

I've never seen one of those, and I work next to a Honda dealer.
Nope, it's a Civic 1.8ltr petrol SE built in Swindon UK for the UK/EU market, driven and pictured in Jersey not New Jersey (the original and still the best).

rickvanr
May 28, 2006, 06:12 PM
Nope, it's a Civic 1.8ltr petrol SE built in Swindon UK for the UK/EU market, driven and pictured in Jersey not New Jersey (the original and still the best).

I'm a tard. Sorry. :o

Cool car though. Swindon UK as in the Swindon branch from 'the Office'?

mpw
May 28, 2006, 06:15 PM
I'm a tard. Sorry. :o

Cool car though. Swindon UK as in the Swindon branch from 'the Office'?
That's the one.

mfacey
May 28, 2006, 11:55 PM
Just got this on Friday.


That's a fantastic looking car mpw! Just wondering what you think of the ride quality? I've read in a few reviews that its a bit tough. What do you think?

CompUser
May 29, 2006, 12:23 AM
I sold my truck. No regrets. Much better now. And, for a 16 year old, not too bad.
2003 Pontiac Aztek

Let the soccer mom cracks begin

And, once I get my new carb in I'll be driving the 86 Honda Accord. With only 357000mi on the odo [that's not counting the 6 months the speedo/odo didn't work]

Edit: can't get the stupid pictures of the tek to show up as thumbnails, dunno why though.

*tries to hold in laugh*

AZTEC!!! AZTEC!!! AZTEC!!!

WHAT WERE YOU THINKING, OR YOUR PARENTS, OR WHO EVER BOUGHT THE CAR IN THE FIRST PLACE.

CompUser
May 29, 2006, 12:25 AM
duh, yeah, 2nd hand. Hell of a deal though, it's actually a 2001, but only has 6,200 miles on the clock!! I'm in the honeymoon period, I still like all the stuff™ he added. I actually really do like the red badges though :o I'll see about the headrests.
They were included!!! :D

My friends dad's is a 2005. He wanted the gray with the red interior but could not find any with it new. In fact, his gray ext with black int had to be shipped up from NJ.

I like the red lettering.

Bloo Ice
May 29, 2006, 01:04 AM
*tries to hold in laugh*

AZTEC!!! AZTEC!!! AZTEC!!!

WHAT WERE YOU THINKING, OR YOUR PARENTS, OR WHO EVER BOUGHT THE CAR IN THE FIRST PLACE.

It is azteK mind you. Insults from someone who can't spell don't really phase me.
Naw, I know about 98% of the population thinks its ugly. But its us 2% who like them, and cause them to grow on our friends, and spread the likers. My selling point: once your inside you can't see the outside.

Reply #1000!