So Long Internet Explorer?

[arn]

Spymac (http://www.spymac.com) claims that Apple may break free from Internet Explorer at MacWorld San Francisco.

Rumors over the past year have pointed to Apple attempting to gain some further independence of Microsoft... with Sun-Apple StarOffice rumors (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/08/20020805033008.shtml), updated AppleWorks rumors, iCal, and updated Mail clients.

Apple's browser support has remained with Internet Explorer since the agreement in 1997 (http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,5156,00.asp). This agreement ended this year, and Apple's hiring of David Hyatt (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/07/20020718004211.shtml) (the creator of Chimera) has fueled speculation of an Apple branded browser... and at the very least a push towards a non-Microsoft browser.

[strider42]

I'm not sure I ever really understood why MS supports explorer on the mac. I mean, on the PC, their original worry was that a browser may become a computing platform over which they have no control. Now it acts as a way to help establish other tehcnologies from them. But on the mac, is this such a big concern for them? It never really added up for me.

So, I don't think it would be a bad idea for an apple browser to exist again. I guess we'll just have to see how this all pans out.

[Foocha]

I used to think that it was a terrible idea for Apple to develop their own browser (and let's face it, Cyberdog was a terrible browser). Two things have happened lately to change my mind:

1. Microsoft has allowed development of IE for Mac to slip so far behind that it no longer has much in common with the PC version - so it's not a standard, and it is no longer cross-platform compatible.

2. Mozilla is now a credible alternative, and is almost identical on any platform. This presents Apple with the opportunity of making an excellent in investment in developing a Mozilla based Web browser with an Apple-quality Cocoa UI. Heck, I think Apple should even pitch in and assist the whole Mozilla innitiative with its marketing bucks and development resources.

The question is, will Apple be able to make this move without souring the relationship with Microsoft to such an extent that they cease development of Office for Mac. Since MS is being so sluggish with IE development on Mac, and they don't make any money from it, perhaps this will not be such a big issue.

[gotohamish]

I say bring it on!

[reyesmac]

Since MS is not going to make exlporer like the Windows version, I say Apple picking a new browser is a good thing. I would be much happier knowing that the browser that Apple makes will use every technology availabe to become the fastest browser available. I hope they integrate sherlock into it and have more services like that in the browser. I wish they would make something like the scrapbook that IE has though, that thing is great.

If it can go to any e-commerce & business-type site without problems it should be a winner.

[arn]

Originally posted by Foocha

The question is, will Apple be able to make this move without souring the relationship with Microsoft to such an extent that they cease development of Office for Mac. Since MS is being so sluggish with IE development on Mac, and they don't make any money from it, perhaps this will not be such a big issue.

I think the Apple-Microsoft relationship is already soured.

Jobs and Schiller have been taking shots at them all year... and the Mac business unit guy from Microsoft has even made threats about discontinuing Office if it doesn't sell. And Apple took a jab right back.

plus, with the Switch campaign, they've ben very agressive.

Apple may be trying to position themselves... hopefully they can back it up.

arn

[iGav]

Personally I'd be surprised if MS did stop Mac IE development, either way you look at it, Apple still sell ALOT of Macs, and in this day and age, I believe MS needs all the good exposure it can get......

If Apple does decide to replace IE.... so what..... I'd love an Apple browser that truely supported W3C standards, and if MS does continue supporting the Mac, then those that use IE can always D/L it......

From my position Apple certainly seems to be positioning itself for a post MS world, and I personally think this is a good thing, as long as the Apple alternatives are compatible with PC file formats and that they is a viable alternative to MS Office then there shouldn't really be a problem.......

As funny as Jobs' digs are MS, they should be atleast a little careful, just incase it all goes pear shaped again..... Something tells me MS wouldn't be so willing to help next time......

[Nipsy]

I'm glad I've been writing good web code for years. It'll be fun to pick up everybody's contract repairs when all the IE centric sites break.

[mac15]

but won't this stuff the ties with M$ and the making of office X, I hope not cause thats vital to the mac

[Choppaface]

yay! a web design nightmare! that's going to win them over big in that part of the design community... :rolleyes: .... he he :D :D

unless they can roll something out with a) everything that mozilla has and b) behavior that somewhat mimics mac IE now, web developers aren't going to get a good preview of what most of their audience will see. it might not be a huge deal as table-based layouts start to get phased out, and if apple can provide some sort of setting to emulate XP anti-aliasing (like what, a tenth of OSX?)......... but apple can't play "let's fundamentally change computing" in this arena as they did in the jump from OS9 to OSX. course as long as IE6+ does not start to behave a lot diffently than mac IE 5.2, and as long as IE5.2 will even run in X, it too might not be a big deal.

besides design issues, I really see this thing having some sort of special integration with .mac and all their other fluff. I really doubt apple could restrict themselves from producing an application as isolated from the operating system as IE is now. this would be annoying.

[Pants]

Originally posted by Choppaface


besides design issues, I really see this thing having some sort of special integration with .mac and all their other fluff. I really doubt apple could restrict themselves from producing an application as isolated from the operating system as IE is now. this would be annoying.

yeah - agreed with teh standards thing, and doubly agreed with this last bit. seriously, wouldn't this approach (and I agree, i cannot see apple NOT tying it in with .mac) blur teh distinction between the way M$ operates and teh way Appl£ is starting to operate? In fact, i'd go as far to say that the mac platform is becoming MORE of a closed shop, monopolistic market than windows - we have always had limited hardwar choices, but now software too? Independant companies are getting trampled on (ahem - the new sherlock is, lets be frank, a rip off) - is this a GOOD thing?? yeah, exploder sucks plums, but there are other browsers around. Choice is never bad, but using a market position to leverage out competitors is not good. :/

[Wry Cooter]

Originally posted by reyesmac


If it can go to any e-commerce & business-type site without problems it should be a winner.

Of course if Microsoft were to use Explorer as a marketing wedge, this is exactly where it would be. I have already seen IE used as a front end for proprietary (as opposed to public) databases. Perhaps this is not a problem, but it could be made into one.

[j763]

Don't get too worried, apple's not just going to mess with the UI (can anyone say virex?), they've actually been working with the moz codebase and adding support for loads of technologies (even win2k-iis proxy authentication!!!). also, apple's been speaking *a lot* w/sun recently... hope to see something materialize sf03 -- mw's are just turning into sw shows... ...until ibm get their beasty ppc chip out the door.

[nickmcghie]

Originally posted by Pants

....Choice is never bad, but using a market position to leverage out competitors is not good. :/

its called a monopoly :)

[G4scott]

boo-ya m$... take it!

I just hope that if they kill IE, they have something that works... Netscape is ok, but I prefer OmniWeb, but OmniWeb just doesn't do some things.

[bretm]

Originally posted by G4scott
boo-ya m$... take it!

I just hope that if they kill IE, they have something that works... Netscape is ok, but I prefer OmniWeb, but OmniWeb just doesn't do some things.

More precisely, OmniWeb doesn't do ANYTHING. It's the prettiest, most incompatible browser out there. Possibly sans chimera, but at least chimera seems to have full css support. Chimera's flash support however is complete junk. Other mozilla browsers like netscape and mozilla don't display tables correctly and some css styles correctly. Oh, but they have tabbed browsing which omniweb and ie doesn't. IE is probably the slowest of the bunch.

As much as ms sucks, it displays pages correctly, whereas the other 3 do not. I can live without tabbed browsing if the pages are correct.

Personally, I think the mac version of IE is much better than the windows version. I like the favorites/history slide out panel on the left better, I like autofill alot. I don't think the windows version has autofill. And as far as display characteristics go, I still find things more akin to Netscape 4 in IE on the PC, whereas the mac version will display a page closer to the way it was designed more of the time.

[barkmonster]

I think mozilla is the closest to a completely working and W3C compliant browser.

If apple got hold of the source code, added Altivec enhancements to the javascript compiler while speeding it up for G3s at the same time, made the rendering engine Quartz based so it scrolls and renders pages lightning fast and got rid of the sluggishness when you open new browers windows or open links. Mozilla or an Apple browser based on it running on the mac would be the fastest, most stable, most standards compliant browser on any platform.

We need a better browser.

I was using IE 6 on a PC recently, it was an old PC, maybe a Pentium III or something and it was so fast compared to the mac version it makes M$'s efforts on the mac version seem wasted and half arsed.

Scrolling is so smooth it's frame accurate in someway, even scrolling a window on my mac isn't as smooth as IE 6 scrolls pages in IE 6.

If mozilla keeps progressing at the rate it is doing and all the bugs and speed issues are delt with, even if apple don't end up making their own version, I'll be getting rid of all the M$ bloatware and using a browser that just works.

Netscape isn't an option, I really don't like opera and I'm not running OS X so I can't comment on the other browsers.

iCab could turn out to be a great browser one day too, once it's 100% finished and there's no missing features.

[Nonosse]

My position...

On my old dinosaurs (3400 & 4400), i still use Netscape 4.7, and i'm pretty glad about it.

Explorer, which starts on its own once in a while because my computers are not properly set, doesn't inspire me - the visible area is too small for me, i don't feel like switching.

Now, i've always been told that part of the reason why Internet is so fast on Winboxes is that IE is more or less included in the OS. Could we hope the same might happen with an Apple browser, slightly faster ? And browsers are not really individual softwares anymore - you use them so often they SHOULD BE part of the OS. How many of us DON'T start it and close it with the computer ?

Arnaud.

[Mr. Anderson]

wasn't there talk of giving sherlock html viewing capabilities a while back?

And with the new version, searching for files on your own computer isn't an option anymore.

[jhalmos]

This is a bad idea. Apple needs the direct competition as well as connection to M$ to be considered a serious contender. If Apple thinks that StarOffice, or, god forbid, AppleWorks can replace Office they are completely out to lunch. Office X was a miricle and a credibility move for Apple at the time and while there's the usual M$ bugs in it (PPT suffers considerably in Jag) the damn thing is an essential package for Apple. Especially after the Apple division of M$ made such grand and early efforts to get on board the OSX train. And Chimera, good lord, it's still a zygot. Jobs will lose serious points if he's got the idea that now that the deal is done that he can go kick sand in their faces. Perhaps M$ HAS to keep producing Office for another OS to keep out of jail, but Apple taking advantage of that will only hurt themselves. Apple/Jobs have often made these sorts of huge branding/strategy blunders. Let's hope they've predicted the future acurately, and that my worries are wrong wrong wrong.

[Gaz]

All the bitching that Apple Execs are doing to M$ is nothing short of stupid.

I think it would help to look at the arguement from a different perspective. Firstly M$ HAS made lots of bad products, there is no question of this fact. What most people fail to realise is that they are also making some really good steps forward and they are beginning to produce stuff that is really good. Try looking beyond the OS.

Office is a very good product and I personally haven't used a package that is more productive. If you lose this you lose a large amount of appeal to switch. Remember switch is mainly targetted at people who don't know much about computers. They want to see the name of an important peice of software they use. Do not underestimate the impact this has. Also even if you make a compatible suite it won't ever be 100% compatible and this is a big turn off for users.

You may not realise this but M$ has done some great things for web browsing. Much of the functionality that you have today is because M$ has pushed new ideas and that it has attempted to work with the W3C to get these ideas standard.

If M$ go as far to pull IExplorer and Office then you'll loose Messenger as well. Most people will not say screw M$ we'll use something else, they'll say well I can't use the stuff I need so I'll stick with the platform where I know I can do these tasks. Also beyond this M$ could pull support for their hardware and say bye bye to your optical mouse.

In true Apple needs M$ more the M$ needs Apple. Yes Apple should release their own browser, competition can be good as long as it is not done in a monoplist (sorry not sure if that is the right word) way.

The way to truely give people a choice is to provide the different browsers with the OS X install and then let them choose the one they want to use. I would guess the majority (remember the switcher here) would use IE by default. If Apple supplies it's own version and forces users to have to download other browsers you can hardly say this is fair.

Anyway my long drawn out point is that don't let M$ past sway you in to thinking all things by them are bad. They've done a lot more for computering than you'd ever realise (and that's good things). The best solution would be to encourage everyone to make better products and let the consumer decide.

Gaz.

p.s. The media only lay in to M$ because it's the current cool thing to do. Yes there are some big issues with their products but OS X requires plenty of sercurity updates. Also when a product is so popular and widespread it becomes a bigger target for hackers. If OS X or 9 was anywhere near as big then i'm certain main of the vunerabilities would be explioted and you would see OS X in the press far more.

[lelereb]

There is no need to removes IE from the applications boundle, Apple can simply "add" Mozilla (or any other browser) and set it as the default browser.

[chmorley]

Anyone ever play Interactive TV with Monday Night Football?

I did it throughout last year, using NS 4 in classic, as no X-native browser would run it (not sure why that would be, but it was). I tried the same thing last Monday night, and it told me that only MSIE would work. It didn't, in 9 or X.

ESPN has become part of MSN.

They seem to have struck a deal with M$ to make IE the only acceptable browser. If this trend continues with other "special features" of specific sites, I'll be really pissed. I don't want to have to run VPC to play.

That being said, I think an Apple-branded browser would be great. I don't care if they do it as long as we eventually have a browser so complete we only need one.

Those bashing Chimera should check out 0.5.

I loved Cyberdog. It was fast, stable, and fantastically configurable.

Chris

[vixapphire]

Well, I haven't seen or run IE 6 yet (we're still on 5.5 at work) and I've got 5.x running on my G3 at home with a 56k dialup (no jokes, please)... I don't really see where as a mac user I am supposedly suffering through the use of IE. Netscape has always looked to me like 1996; it's as if they stopped developing/upgrading because they had a lot of legal bills to pay or something :-)

I remember Apple's "eworld" and other such forays into the browser jungle some years ago. Let's hope they "don't even go there" again...

Perhaps a smarter move than pulling a MS-move and shipping its computers with only the proprietary browser installed (and thus forcing users to ferret out and download alternatives from the web) might be to arrange to license the IE 6 or whatever current/future MS browser code from MS and have their own (Apple's) engineers port it/incorporate it into the Mac OS. After all, if MS and other 3d party developers are able to view in advance the Mac OS before it's commercially available in order to develop their products for the platform (i.e. Office.x), why wouldn't the reverse be possible, especially on a cost-center (free) product like IE? An optimized browser that MS has done most of the legwork on already, and that carries the big brand identity, sounds like a win-win to me.

As someone who is a lone mac guy in a field of Wintel people, my observation is that most folks considering a "switch" are paying more attention to software titles than anything else. It's sort of like buying a car: why buy a Yugo when you can buy a Chevy Cavalier? Hell, the Yugo might've even been a better car, but it ain't got the familiar brand name. (o.k., that was a horrible example, but you get my drift...)

Besides, I would think that most average home computer consumers, if they buy off the shelf systems (ie. from Dell or Gateway or whatever) are getting a plug and play system with OS and browser (and sometimes Office, etc.) preinstalled. Thus, the "trouble-free computing" issues a lot of Apple power-users and heavy-duty system whores trumpet about may not have any resonance with these people, making the issue of cross-platform software title availability even more important.

[nuckinfutz]

Barkmonster,
You will not see a browser faster than IE in Windows ever because IE is basically embedded into the OS. This gives it better access to the internals and the speed advantage is very noticeable. However, crash IE and your system can easily become unstable. I did it last night.


If M$ go as far to pull IExplorer and Office then you'll loose Messenger as well. Most people will not say screw M$ we'll use something else, they'll say well I can't use the stuff I need so I'll stick with the platform where I know I can do these tasks. Also beyond this M$ could pull support for their hardware and say bye bye to your optical mouse.


AIM is the #1 Instant Messenger. Despite MS attempts to cram MSN Messenger down users throats. iChat support is Apple going with the leader. MS isn't pulling Office because that's like pulling money out your pocket and burning it. Who cares about an Optical Mouse. I've got PLENTY of options. Mac users need MS generally for Office. That's about it. Competing Browsers are getting to the point where IE is not even needed in many cases.

The way to truely give people a choice is to provide the different browsers with the OS X install and then let them choose the one they want to use. I would guess the majority (remember the switcher here) would use IE by default. If Apple supplies it's own version and forces users to have to download other browsers you can hardly say this is fair.


You do have the choice on both platforms. My PC has Netscape also. No one is forcing you to standardize on one browser but that doesn't mean they're going to provide multiple browsers. They'll ship with a default and if you want to change that...change it. No harm no foul.



Anyway my long drawn out point is that don't let M$ past sway you in to thinking all things by them are bad. They've done a lot more for computering than you'd ever realise (and that's good things). The best solution would be to encourage everyone to make better products and let the consumer decide.



You're preaching in front of the wrong choir here. I won't dispute the advancements that Microsoft has made but once again they've dominated a market and then that market's innovation has stagnated. I'm excited about the prospects of Apple adding it's flair to a Browser. With Apples focus on Integration and Digital Lifestyle they could really tie their own tech to a browser making it the "experience" that many of us expected. How long will Mac users stand to be treated like second class citizens? Not long I suppose.

[MacBandit]

To quelch some peoples worries. Apple currently has no ties with Microsoft they deal has been over for a few months now. If Microsoft plays the crush game with Apple expect to get a fight. Apple has big guns for example a PC compatible system. Also it wouldn't take a lot from Apple to use the open source office and develop Appleworks into what it should have been all along. Meanwhile they could really play ball and start developing this stuff for PCs. Can you imagine Apples design and functionality on a PC compatible AppleWorks that's fully Office compatible?

The point is I think Apple is ready for battle and we do not need Microsoft.

[Pismo]

If Apple introduced their own internet browser, it will be better than anything we've ever used. Why? Apple is a company of innovation. Since OS X was introduced, the apps that Apple has made are more powerful and user friendly than their clunky PC counterparts. Apple has some of the best programmers and engineers in the WORLD and M$ knows that.

Apple would most likely integrate the broswer into their .Mac strategy, therefore making our digital lifestyles easier to organize and to get information.

[SilvorX]

this is NO big suprise this happened since ms/apple's contract ran out in june or july so it may mean apple is cutting off the 5 or so year ties slowly but gradually, first by including mail.app since the original version of osx, then ichat, then maybe ibrowse/something similar, then an appleworks office suite then they'll be without ms ties then...
but ms is starting to get rid of ie integration now, i installed sp1 on xp the other day, and in the add/remove, i unchecked "allow this program to run" or something like that for ie, and then it removed access to ie from the puter so it wont take over links i want to be performed in mozilla...buttttt if u type in a web url in win explorer it will still work...
i think apple should also include a netscape browser (NS 7) or chimera or somethin based on mozilla included as an alternative to ie...

[eric_n_dfw]

Originally posted by nuckinfutz
You will not see a browser faster than IE in Windows ever because IE is basically embedded into the OS. This gives it better access to the internals and the speed advantage is very noticeable. However, crash IE and your system can easily become unstable. I did it last night.
Actually, I use Mozilla 1.0 and IE 5.5 at work and Mozilla is as fast or faster. It's also less buggy (can't speak to IE 6 as we haven't upgraded to it here)

I use Mozilla on OS X 10.1 at home right now but it doesn't "feel" as stable or fast as Mac IE (the only reason I switched was due to SSL security holes in IE on both Mac and Windows: see IE SSL Security Hole (http://online.securityfocus.com/archive/1/286290/2002-08-01/2002-08-07/2) )

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by Foocha
I used to think that it was a terrible idea for Apple to develop their own browser (and let's face it, Cyberdog was a terrible browser).

That's because it wasn't a browser, it was a OpenDoc container. It looked like a duck, and it quacked like a duck, but under it's feathers CyberDog was no duck.

[Kid Red]

Originally posted by jhalmos
This is a bad idea. Apple needs the direct competition as well as connection to M$ to be considered a serious contender. If Apple thinks that StarOffice, or, god forbid, AppleWorks can replace Office they are completely out to lunch. Office X was a miricle and a credibility move for Apple at the time and while there's the usual M$ bugs in it (PPT suffers considerably in Jag) the damn thing is an essential package for Apple. Especially after the Apple division of M$ made such grand and early efforts to get on board the OSX train. And Chimera, good lord, it's still a zygot. Jobs will lose serious points if he's got the idea that now that the deal is done that he can go kick sand in their faces. Perhaps M$ HAS to keep producing Office for another OS to keep out of jail, but Apple taking advantage of that will only hurt themselves. Apple/Jobs have often made these sorts of huge branding/strategy blunders. Let's hope they've predicted the future acurately, and that my worries are wrong wrong wrong.

You don't watch much news do you? Dell and HP are dropping MS Office in favor of Corel WordPerfect. MS Office days are numbered.

[Kid Red]

Surprised no one had asked- Why in MWSF? Panther isn't due out by then. So is it because the all new macs won't ship with IE?

[SilvorX]

Originally posted by Kid Red


You don't watch much news do you? Dell and HP are dropping MS Office in favor of Corel WordPerfect. MS Office days are numbered.
yep...the darn activation process isnt popular at all....i think corel should join up with sun and apple to create the new apple office suite or whatever...corel seems to be doing fine lately ever since they sold off their linux os...

[beatle888]

Originally posted by arn


I think the Apple-Microsoft relationship is already soured.

Jobs and Schiller have been taking shots at them all year... and the Mac business unit guy from Microsoft has even made threats about discontinuing Office if it doesn't sell. And Apple took a jab right back.

plus, with the Switch campaign, they've ben very agressive.

Apple may be trying to position themselves... hopefully they can back it up.

arn



ooh FIGHT :p

[beep]

I would just like to point out that Apple has had Netscape and not IE in the dock in a print ad, and they used Chimera at the Xserve release event.

[tedson]

My mac is Micro$oft free as I write this.

I use OmniWeb and Chimera instead of IE. (I deleted I.E. out of my application folder, I also deleted some of the fonts out of my fonts folder that had Microsoft copyright notices) So far I haven't run across any site that at least one of these browsers will support properly. If they won't, screw them; I'll use another site.

Also, piss on Microsoft for charging hundreds of dollars for Office X. AppleWorks works fine for me.

Also, screw Windows Media Player. Who needs their proprietary formats and Bill's Digital Rights Management.

[elgruga]

If Corel, Apple, Sun, et al can do something with a new browser of a Unix flavor, and that adheres to w3 standards, there may be a chance to get some of M$ market share.
Apple has 4% - they can only get more users, and M$ does appear to be crumbling a little bit.

There is a M$ killer app or machine somewhere in the future......maybe Apple will find it, maybe its a new co. out there.


Its going to be interesting...........Apple might as well go for the whole thing: browser, office suite, PC software, etc.

[Gaz]

Sorry I didn't get my point across very clearly and this isn't trying to argue against anyone's comments.

It doesn't matter if MSN is the #1 instant msg prog or not, if someone is using this software and so are their friends they want to be able to use it on different platforms. It doesn't matter if it's good or not (to a certain extend).

Yes there are lots of alteratives for mice but it does appear that people are keen on their M$ mice.

The problem with almost everyone here, myself included is that we are all to computer literate. We know there are alterative browsers, my PC runs IE, Netscape and Opera while my Mac runs all the current favs and non favs. Unfortunately the majority of users just use what is given to them. It's an assumption that as it's included it is probably the best. Obviously the best solution is to provide everyone with everything but that just won't happen (bad marketting).

Yes Office is the most important product in terms of the Mac platform. It would not be anti-competative of M$ to withdraw it due to the fact that they have tried to sell a product on a platform and the people running the platform are not making it viable, especially if they actively seek to produce an alterative as a direct competitor.

Sorry to sound preachy, I am probably sounding like a huge M$ supporter when that is not really true. It just annoys me when people like Steve Jobs acts like a 5 year old and unfortunately runs a company where his personal dislike affects a good number of people. If Apple really want to become the best they should be looking to maximise links with other companies to make things better for the consumer.

Unfortunately I don't have a solution but I'm pretty sure of actions that would not be in the best interest of both current and potential users.

[tedson]

[MacSlut]

This rumor is stupid. It's obviously the result of someone having a bug up their *** about Microsoft. The bottom line is that there are many, much bigger things for Apple to spend time, money and resources on.

Newsflash...no revenue comes from making browsers.

This isn't like other iApps where money comes from the sell of the OS and hardware because of cool Mac-unique applications. This is a browser we're talking about. Move on, no revenue to be found here.

Think about it people...most of the major sites are designed and for the latest couple of versions of Explorer for Windows. Any new browser is going to have to not only be a better browser, but what it really needs to be is a better Explorer than Explorer. HTML standards are totally meaningless (sad, but true). The vast majority of sites work fine on Explorer for the Mac, and while some don't render just right, Explorer for the Mac remains the #2 most compatible browser.

Explorer is *not* that bad on the Mac. Even without rendering as intended, other features of Explorer still make it better than its competitors on the Mac. You may disagree, but personally other than speed and that it's about 99% compatible, I find Explorer much better on the Mac...certainly more reliable, and I love being able to customize the toolbar and other things not available on the Windows version.

While Explorer could be better on the Mac. I really don't think Apple could develop a better Explorer without diverting huge amounts of resources from other things that would much better improve the OS, iApps and/or increase revenue.

Oh, and that whole "not pissing off Microsoft, AOL and a slew of 3rd party developers" thing.

[blakespot]

Apple might strive to bring StarOffice to OS X as an alternative to AppleWorks and MS Office, but StarOffice, as anyone who has ever used it knows, sucks. It does not even begin to come anywhere near a replacement for MS Office.

And as for moving from IE... I run several sites professionally and "on the side" and all of them report an 80/20 ratio of IE to "other" users. Even in its latest form, Netscape/Mozilla still doesn't render pages out there as well as IE. Netscape always has and still does have real problems with complex table structure. To stop at least a portion of the arguments that will no doubt come at me becuase of my traiterous comments, let me point out a few things:

- I would rather I didn't feel a MS browser was superior

- Coding complex DHTML is a pain in the ass becuase IE's model (considered "the standard") is superior and quite different from Netscape's. Anything you code for the browser that serves 80% of the users out there, you must entirely re-code for the < 20% of folks that use Netscape and its derivatives.

- Netscape can't render tables properly

- IE is more forgiving about bad HTML. Sure -- "a web designer should produce good HTML, obviously." Yes, it's obvious. But they don't. So for lots of improperly designed sites out there, IE renders them in a manner that is more coherent. Call this a "feature" of IE on the plus side.

- IE is more stable than NS / Mozilla / Chimera

- I am a professional web developer. At several employers over the past few years there have been project managers that made the call to code something for IE and not to bother with a NS translation, so many folks in a given org were using IE. That perpetuates IE's dominance, but that is a management decision. It has nothing to do with "lazy developers" as, again, it's a management decision. Bad managers? Ok. You give me a paycheck then.

- My world as a developer would be improved if (when) NS goes away.


Thoughts?



blakespot

[chmorley]

Originally posted by blakespot
...
- Netscape can't render tables properly
...
- IE is more stable than NS / Mozilla / ChimeraInteresting points. Having used Mozilla extensively, my experience is different. Can you point me to a page with complex tables that Mozilla can't render? My experience has actually been that Mozilla can render anything IE can, and is many times faster with tables, but maybe I just haven't gone to a site with complex tables.

Here is one I use all the time: TV Guide Satellite Listings (http://www.tvguide.com/Listings/index.asp?I=63881)

Is that not "complex"? I am not clear.

Also, on my machine Mozilla has been far more stable than IE since 0.98 or so. I recognize that these things vary from machine to machine--IE is much more stable on my wife's old iBook than on my TiBook.

Lastly, many have blamed the sloppy html on FrontPage and the fact that it looks okay in IE--their argument being that if IE was more rigid about W3C compliance, more browsers would work flawlessly, and IE wouldn't have such a stranglehold on the market (another M$ conspiracy). While these folks may also believe Buss Aldrin has never reached the moon, I am curious what your take is on this.

Good to see you back.

Chris

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by chmorley
Interesting points. Having used Mozilla extensively, my experience is different. Can you point me to a page with complex tables that Mozilla can't render? My experience has actually been that Mozilla can render anything IE can, and is many times faster with tables, but maybe I just haven't gone to a site with complex tables.

Here is one I use all the time: TV Guide Satellite Listings (http://www.tvguide.com/Listings/index.asp?I=63881)

Is that not "complex"? I am not clear.

Also, on my machine Mozilla has been far more stable than IE since 0.98 or so. I recognize that these things vary from machine to machine--IE is much more stable on my wife's old iBook than on my TiBook.

Lastly, many have blamed the sloppy html on FrontPage and the fact that it looks okay in IE--their argument being that if IE was more rigid about W3C compliance, more browsers would work flawlessly, and IE wouldn't have such a stranglehold on the market (another M$ conspiracy). While these folks may also believe Buss Aldrin has never reached the moon, I am curious what your take is on this.

Good to see you back.

Chris


Send any of the IE alternatives on to a Java heavy page and a) watch them crash or b) they will not handle it properly.

This is my problem with IE alternatives. As much as I despise IE there is no alternative to date with the Java support that it has.

[chmorley]

Originally posted by MacBandit
Send any of the IE alternatives on to a Java heavy page and a) watch them crash or b) they will not handle it properly.

This is my problem with IE alternatives. As much as I despise IE there is no alternative to date with the Java support that it has. I have been frustrated by this in the past, myself. I am not sure it's true anymore. Can you point me to a page that will crash Mozilla?

Chris

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by chmorley
I have been frustrated by this in the past, myself. I am not sure it's true anymore. Can you point me to a page that will crash Mozilla?

Chris

I don't know it turned me off so much I haven't used the latest version of Mozilla. I've been reading the update text for all the alternatives waiting to see one that says they have drastically improved Java support.

Try this for me.

http://SkyandTelescope.com/observing/skychart/

Then click on view sky chart. This hasn't worked for me with any Mac browser.

[chmorley]

Originally posted by MacBandit
I don't know it turned me off so much I haven't used the latest version of Mozilla. I've been reading the update text for all the alternatives waiting to see one that says they have drastically improved Java support.

Try this for me.

http://SkyandTelescope.com/observing/skychart/

Then click on view sky chart. This hasn't worked for me with any Mac browser. True enough. Got an error in Chimera and crashed Mozilla 1.1.

Yes, the java support continues to improve, but it's not at all perfect.

Thanks for the heads up.

Chris

[chmorley]

Just for grins, I tried it in IE, as well. I know you stated that you haven't gotten it to work in any Mac browser, but wanted to see the different ways it crapped out. Interestingly, I got the same error message I had gotten in Chimera (and OmniWeb, BTW):

java.lang.ClassFormatError: SkyChart (Bad magic number)

While this is still frustrating, it is not clear where the problem is coming from. Is it the Mac Virtual Machine (MRJ)? Is it a poorly coded site?

Nonetheless, it ends up not being Mozilla/NS-centric.

Is there another site that works in IE but not Mozilla?

Chris

[Foocha]

Funny thing is, IE 5.1 Macintosh Edition is still the most W3C standards based browser around. I don't know of any other browser that supports CSS2 quite as well. The sad thing is that these days W3C standards don't seem as important as Microsoft standards.

In my opinion Mozilla is now looking like a worthy contender to the IE, and with the combined support of Apple adopting it on the Mac platform and AOL Time Warner finally adopting it on AOL, Web developers might start taking W3C standards seriously again.

I dream of the day when all Web formatting is handled with CSS - the widespread adoption of an alternative to IE might just bring that day forward.

[blackpeter]

Chimera is the most OS X'est browser out there. It'd be great if Apple supported it the way it's supporting IE now.

[medea]

Does anyone else think it's funny that Apple just changed Sherlock using it soley for the web and calls it "web services for the rest of us" so you can get soooo much information without having to open a broswer, but yet they are now making a browser.....anyways just a though that crossed my mind and it probably wont matter to anyone else that reads it. As a matter fact it doesnt matter to me anymore.......:o

[blakespot]

Originally posted by tfaz1
Chimera is the most OS X'est browser out there. It'd be great if Apple supported it the way it's supporting IE now.
"Most OS X'est" is a bit curious a descriptor, but if my gut understanding of what you mean is correct, I would say OmniWeb takes it. OmniWeb existed under NeXTSTEP, the OS on which OS X is based. I have it running on the NeXTStation to my right here. Seems that would give it that hat to wear.


blakespot

[blakespot]

Originally posted by chmorley
Interesting points. Having used Mozilla extensively, my experience is different. Can you point me to a page with complex tables that Mozilla can't render? My experience has actually been that Mozilla can render anything IE can, and is many times faster with tables, but maybe I just haven't gone to a site with complex tables.

Here is one I use all the time: TV Guide Satellite Listings (http://www.tvguide.com/Listings/index.asp?I=63881)

Is that not "complex"? I am not clear.
No, I do not consider that a complex table. Supercomplex nested tables are often there to lend structure to a page and the fact that such a table structure in place ideally is not noticeable to the vasual visitor. Almost all of the complex tables I have made fall under this classification.

Also, on my machine Mozilla has been far more stable than IE since 0.98 or so. I recognize that these things vary from machine to machine--IE is much more stable on my wife's old iBook than on my TiBook.
This is not the case for me.

Lastly, many have blamed the sloppy html on FrontPage and the fact that it looks okay in IE--their argument being that if IE was more rigid about W3C compliance, more browsers would work flawlessly, and IE wouldn't have such a stranglehold on the market (another M$ conspiracy). While these folks may also believe Buss Aldrin has never reached the moon, I am curious what your take is on this.
Well, they can blame sloppy HTML on that if they like. The cause is moot. The fact that there is lots of sloppy HTML out there is the reality, and a browser that can deal with it better is a better browser. A better browser in the real world.

Good to see you back.

Thanks. Just been busy.



blakespot

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by tfaz1
Chimera is the most OS X'est browser out there. It'd be great if Apple supported it the way it's supporting IE now.


Not to nit pick but it should be OS X'iest. Like sexiest or sexy. ;)

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by chmorley
Just for grins, I tried it in IE, as well. I know you stated that you haven't gotten it to work in any Mac browser, but wanted to see the different ways it crapped out. Interestingly, I got the same error message I had gotten in Chimera (and OmniWeb, BTW):

java.lang.ClassFormatError: SkyChart (Bad magic number)

While this is still frustrating, it is not clear where the problem is coming from. Is it the Mac Virtual Machine (MRJ)? Is it a poorly coded site?

Nonetheless, it ends up not being Mozilla/NS-centric.

Is there another site that works in IE but not Mozilla?

Chris


I don't know of any currently because I haven't been running anything but IE. Java and W3 compliance are key to a good browser in this day and age as I see it.

[tjwett]

i've always used IE on the Mac. it seems OK to me. maybe i just don't know any better. i've never tried any of the other "underground" browsers. are they really that much better?

[j763]

It's always puzzled me why Microsoft bothered to make IE for the mac. It's kind of like MSN for OS X... why??? or OS X running under MOL running on Linux for PPC... it has never made sense to me and I guess it never will.

My IE rants:

- It can't do win2k proxy authentication properly over a LAN. It dies every time you click a link. No exaggeration. Also, none of the images ever load.

- It can't do Java properly. Not to say that browsers like chimchim are necessarily better, just that Java support under OS X just sucks. But Java sucks IMO newayz.

- It doesn't do ActiveX at all.

- It doesn't do VBScript. Not even simple stuff like redirects (yes, web developers should use <meta refresh> instead, but you have to realize that ppl using any microsoft web technologies are pretty stupid).

- You'll be browsing a webpage and half of the page will suddenly disappear.

- You type in a new address or click a link while the current page is loading and IE just kinda ignores you... It's like "yeah, i'll get round to it".

- You'll click the Stop button and IE again, ignores you. You click it again. And again. Again. Again. Again. Again. Same result. IE says "You will wait!!" (and get repetitive strain injury in the meantime)

...Basically using IE makes me feel like Ellen Feiss -- "And then I was like....huh?". Thankfully, i'm not that stoned :)

...And it doesn't support any of Microsoft's OWN web technologies. Not to say other browsers do, but WTF is the point of having an MS browser which doesn't work with other MS stuff???


Also, its W3C compliance is just $#!+. IEmac is the only browser which displays AmbitiousLemon.com (http://www.ambitiouslemon.com) incorrectly. Basically, because IE doesn't do <div>'s correctly. And it sucks at complex table structure. Duke, take a look at our page and check out IE's suckage factor vs. something decent like chimchim, moz, ns7 or even ow.

[Foocha]

Show me another browser that handles CSS selectors as comprehensively as IE Macintosh Edition.

[Foocha]

If you master CSS, you don't need complex table structures.

[blakespot]

Originally posted by Foocha
If you master CSS, you don't need complex table structures.
Ahh, now all I need to do is contact the webmaster of every page that does not render correctly under Netscape/Mozilla/Chimera and get them to become masters of CSS and then I won't need to run IE any longer.

This is the point I've been trying to make---idealism must be throw out the window when it comes to the issue of dealing with the web as it _actually_ exists _today_.



blakespot

[Foocha]

IE 4, 5 & 6 for Windows; Netscape 6 & 7; IE 5+ Macintosh Edition all provide reasonable support for CSS.

It's not idealism - CSS is a practical, standards-based solution to many formatting issues which exist in the real world today. Too many convoluted ulgy nested table structures are unnecessarily created today when a short, elegant CSS style would do the job just as well.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by j763

- You'll be browsing a webpage and half of the page will suddenly disappear.

- You type in a new address or click a link while the current page is loading and IE just kinda ignores you... It's like "yeah, i'll get round to it".

- You'll click the Stop button and IE again, ignores you. You click it again. And again. Again. Again. Again. Again. Same result. IE says "You will wait!!" (and get repetitive strain injury in the meantime)

The webpage disappears when loading and during many other situations. I agree this is totally *****. You can make it reappear for good by simply resizing the window basically forcing it to redraw. This has been a problem under OSX only and it has been with every version of OSX so it must be a matter of Microsoft's implementation.

I find that usually IE responds fairly quickly especially when you're redirecting during a current page load. The stop button doesn't always work but for those times a window close does.

I do find that I prefer IE on a Mac over a PC when it comes to typing in a web address during a load. This is because you will be right at the end of typing in the address on a PC and it will finish loading the previous page and it will rewrite the whole address bar to show the current loaded page. I can't tell you how many times this has pissed me off and made me want to pitch the damn PC across the room. It wouldn't be a problem if I weren't use to IE for the Mac because it doesn't do that.

[PrettyMan]

Originally posted by blakespot

...
- IE is more stable than NS / Mozilla / Chimera

- My world as a developer would be improved if (when) NS goes away.

...
blakespot

Your first term is A B S O L U T E L L Y false. There is a lot of pages, whose contents appear/desappear randomly under MSIE for Mac. Example. Go to Oracle, Donloads, Oracle 9i Database and try it.

MSIE´s JavaScript in really awfull. JAVA running too.

There´s a lot of pages crashing MSIE.

All of them works on Mozilla, NS7, of course (and I'm not deffending them, because they've a so bad history to our plattform).

And I've no seen a incorrect table render in Mozilla or NS7. Please, send us one.


And I think that the solution isn't to go away any browser. The solution is to claim for standar browser implementations.


Ciao.;)

[CityHunter]

What a cool thread this is turning out to be.

I'm fairly new to Macdom (having only bought a Powerbook at the beginning of the year) having been a Windows users for 15 years. I'm heavily involved in Internet browsing and use IE 6 on a Windows PC. The browser is excellent, smooth and supports all manner of web technologies.

However, I think Chimera is excellent.. maybe because of the Aqua interface (and most importantly the standards applied). You've got to appeciate that it's still only 0.4.0 and although based on the Mozilla 1.1 foundation (which in itself has some way to come yet I feel) is still very buggy.

I was impressed that applet support in IE 5.2 for OSX appeared, as that was most frustrating and was primarily the reason why I kept going back to IE 6 on i386 for on-line banking etc..

I'm aware that a good portion of developers tap into the the 'unique' fucntionality of IE in order to do DHTML, content editable DIVs etc.. in order to get cool sites together. These are things that Chimera will need to be able to deal with if it is to become more successful. (Infact Chimera for Windows would be interesting.. but I wont go there.. the browser war is effectively won).

This is an interesting move by Apple, and a browser would make a welcom addition to the 'i' apps line of products. However, the Internet continues to be Microsoft's stomping ground (as XBox online demonstrates) and Apple would be wise o tread carefully.

[Foocha]

Since Chimera is simple Mozilla with a Cocoa UI, it's not something that you'll ever see on Windows. Use another version of Mozilla instead!

[MacBandit]

Somebody should start a net poll not one here on the boards to let Apple know the Mac communities feelings on how bad we want a Apple branded browser. It's one thing to listen to the Rumors and believe they are going to provide us with one just because it makes since. It's another thing to take action and let Apple know we really want/need one.

[Wry Cooter]

Originally posted by MacBandit
Somebody should start a net poll not one here on the boards to let Apple know the Mac communities feelings on how bad we want a Apple branded browser. It's one thing to listen to the Rumors and believe they are going to provide us with one just because it makes since. It's another thing to take action and let Apple know we really want/need one.

That we actually want one or need one is not that cut and dried an issue. There are a lot of compelling reasons why there should not be an "Apple branded" browser.

That we will probably have one or more viable alternatives to MSIE that fold in more tightly with the way the OS works is probably a given. Whether or not the Apple label is on it really doesn't matter. It will probably be a heck of a lot like Chimera / Mozilla when it happens, and probably rely on open source development for much of its upkeep.

I juggle about three browsers regularly, others on occasion, and sometimes the reason I am using a particular browser has less to do with its feature set, and where it hesitates or excels on the web, than with the cookies, bookmarks, and plug-ins I have built up into that application through regular or specific use and set up.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by Wry Cooter


That we actually want one or need one is not that cut and dried an issue. There are a lot of compelling reasons why there should not be an "Apple branded" browser.

That we will probably have one or more viable alternatives to MSIE that fold in more tightly with the way the OS works is probably a given. Whether or not the Apple label is on it really doesn't matter. It will probably be a heck of a lot like Chimera / Mozilla when it happens, and probably rely on open source development for much of its upkeep.

I juggle about three browsers regularly, others on occasion, and sometimes the reason I am using a particular browser has less to do with its feature set, and where it hesitates or excels on the web, than with the cookies, bookmarks, and plug-ins I have built up into that application through regular or specific use and set up.

The main reason I push for an Apple backed browser is simply to accelerate the developement of Chimera or another type of browser. The development of Chimera for me is going way to slow. I want to dump IE today but for the previously listed reasons I am stuck with it.

[Wry Cooter]

Originally posted by MacBandit


The main reason I push for an Apple backed browser is simply to accelerate the developement of Chimera or another type of browser. The development of Chimera for me is going way to slow. I want to dump IE today but for the previously listed reasons I am stuck with it.

There may be such motions behind the scenes as it is; publicity or official branding is not really going to speed this along. You don't have to have run polls and turn on the public marketing machine to make this happen.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by Wry Cooter


There may be such motions behind the scenes as it is; publicity or official branding is not really going to speed this along. You don't have to have run polls and turn on the public marketing machine to make this happen.

It can help if there is any question in Apples mind. Remember Apple develops products all the time right up to the point of production and then backs out. This is a common industry practice. Letting them know that we want this can help prevent them from dropping the ball.

[macmax]

ill gates is a magician.yes ill gates.
first he steals everything and sells what no one does.
2nd he sold windows to people,a car with no engines and no looks.
but i truly hope that the day will come when microsoft will be all alone , just like the bully that hits everyone until everyone gets tired about him and they all get together against him.
i want fair competition and msft is not giving anyone this fair competition.