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MacRumors
May 27, 2011, 09:22 AM
http://cdn.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/27/apple-hit-with-tax-lobbying-protest-italian-investigation-into-applecare-offerings/)


http://cdn.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/05/us_uncut_apple.jpg

CNET reports (http://news.cnet.com/8301-27076_3-20066629-248.html) that Apple is being targeted for protests by US Uncut (http://usuncut.org), an organization seeking to stop companies from avoiding taxes, with the organization planning a series of protests at Apple's retail stores on June 4th. The organization is protesting Apple's participation in the "Win America Campaign" (WAC), an effort that has seen Apple banding together (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/02/16/apple-lobbying-for-international-tax-amnesty-to-bring-home-profits/) with other major companies to lobby for one-time tax breaks on profits currently being held overseas.The group seeks to have Apple leave the WAC, which it claims is lobbying Congress for what would end up being a $4 billion tax cut for the company, as well as to cease other lobbying activities relating to "tax loopholes."

"Apple plays huge games with their taxes. By disguising profits in the U.S. as foreign earnings in low-tax countries, Apple dodges billions of dollars of taxes they should be paying," the group said in a statement this week.US Uncut is also targeting Bank of America, Verizon, FedEx, GE, and BP with its June 4th "National Day of Action", although Apple appears to be the group's primary target for "dance-in" protests and other actions.

http://cdn.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/05/applecare_ipad-500x82.jpg

(http://cdn.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/05/applecare_ipad.jpg)
Meanwhile, setteB.IT reports (http://www.setteb.it/procedimento-dellantitrust-italiano-contro-apple-sulle-garanzie-11157) that an Italian regulatory agency has taken action against Apple for its sale of AppleCare extended warranty programs that overlap with standard warranties required by European law, effectively selling customers warranty protection that they do not need.

Apple's standard warranties are good for one year, with AppleCare extended warranties pushing that coverage out to a total of two or three years depending on the product. European law requires, however, a standard two-year warranty, overlapping or entirely coinciding with Apple's separate AppleCare offerings. Complicating the issue are differing warranty requirements for manufacturers and sellers, requirements that Apple has apparently argued are being satisfactorily met but with which regulators disagree.

The actions taken by the Italian consumer agency could result in fines levied against Apple and serve as the basis for civil actions by customers.

Article Link: Apple Hit With Tax Lobbying Protest, Italian Investigation Into AppleCare Offerings (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/27/apple-hit-with-tax-lobbying-protest-italian-investigation-into-applecare-offerings/)



ratzzo
May 27, 2011, 09:29 AM
If Apple unrightfully avoided their taxes, I don't find it too bad that they are put in the same bag as those who didn't. Just pay the amount you owe.

And I love European laws.

chrono1081
May 27, 2011, 09:30 AM
This kind of stuff was tried before:

http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/obamas-corporate-tax-hike-would-cause-microsoft-to-outsource-jobs/

d0minick
May 27, 2011, 09:32 AM
In the US we have the 14, 60, or 90 day warranty policies. I really like Europes' 1 year policies :D. Plus a 2 year extended. Once the 3 years are over you get a new lappy. :)

As for taxes, if I can't do sketchy things to dodge em, neither should Apple.

iStudentUK
May 27, 2011, 09:32 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-gb) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8F190 Safari/6533.18.5)

I've been pointing out for ages that EU law offers protection to consumers that can make AppleCare unnecessary in some circumstances. Glad to see the Italians may be addressing this. However, EU law doesn't mandate a 2 year warranty, it is a bit more complex than that. People in the EU should not assume that all electronics they buy are automatically covered for 2 years. It is about understanding the subtle difference between the legal coverage and AppleCare and deciding if the extra money is worth it.

NightFox
May 27, 2011, 09:33 AM
Why combine two entirely unrelated stories in the same article? Am I missing a common thread?

Small White Car
May 27, 2011, 09:34 AM
You know, I love Apple. I'm a shareholder and I want them to become as rich as possible.

And yet...yeah. US Uncut is absolutely right. We should all be complaining about such things.

But I kind of think protesting the companies is stupid. They'll always try to get the best deal they can. They should, that's just smart. It's the government that sets the rules, we should be complaining to them if the rules aren't strong enough.

This is like standing by the side of the road with a 'slow down' sign instead of trying to actually change the speed limit.

dustinsc
May 27, 2011, 09:35 AM
There's an important distinction you learn in accounting classes between tax avoidance and tax evasion. A company would be stupid (and be doing a disservice to its shareholders) if it didn't pursue every legal avenue to avoid taxes. Tax evasion on the other hand, is illegally avoiding taxes, using methods that go against GAAP to hide profits or some other form of fraud.

I suspect Apple is avoiding taxes. In that case, if you want them to pay more in taxes, go after the government, not the company. You can't lobby a company to act irrationally and win.

whooleytoo
May 27, 2011, 09:36 AM
From our point of view - bad news for Ireland if this takes hold; Ireland being one of those pesky countries with very low corporate tax rates which Apple is availing of.

maloderous
May 27, 2011, 09:36 AM
Maybe the US should offer a more competitive corporate tax rate.

dustinsc
May 27, 2011, 09:36 AM
You know, I love Apple. I'm a shareholder and I want them to become as rich as possible.

And yet...yeah. US Uncut is absolutely right. We should all be complaining about such things.

But I kind of think protesting the companies is stupid. They'll always try to get the best deal they can. They should, that's just smart. It's the government that sets the rules, we should be complaining to them if the rules aren't strong enough.

This is like standing by the side of the road with a 'slow down' sign instead of trying to actually change the speed limit.

I guess we had the same idea at roughly the same time, since I posted almost the exact same idea just below you :D

Small White Car
May 27, 2011, 09:38 AM
I guess we had the same idea at roughly the same time, since I posted almost the exact same idea just below you :D

For what it's worth, I think you said it clearer than I did. :o

Les Kern
May 27, 2011, 09:38 AM
[/URL][URL="http://cdn.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif"]Image (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/27/apple-hit-with-tax-lobbying-protest-italian-investigation-into-applecare-offerings/)
.....an effort that has seen Apple banding together (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/02/16/apple-lobbying-for-international-tax-amnesty-to-bring-home-profits/) with other major companies to lobby for one-time tax breaks on profits currently being held overseas.

No.
I pay my taxes, you pay yours. And why, pray tell, do you want to bring the money back in anyway? See, THAT'S the real question.

And while I'm at it, with almost 70BN in cash, would it KILL you to manufacture SOMETHING in America? All you want to do is duck taxes and pay slaves to make your crap. Typical corporate blood-sucking whores.

reden
May 27, 2011, 09:38 AM
In the US we have the 14, 60, or 90 day warranty policies. I really like Europes' 1 year policies :D. Plus a 2 year extended. Once the 3 years are over you get a new lappy. :)

As for taxes, if I can't do sketchy things to dodge em, neither should Apple.

Why do you use so many smiley faces? :):D:):):D:):):D:rolleyes:;)

Tiger8
May 27, 2011, 09:39 AM
Why blame Apple for taking advantage of a HUGE loophole in the Tax law? Even as individuals we can't wait for a deduction or so (a lot of people buy homes to take advantage of tax shelters) so are we surprised that a multibillion company would do that? Look at GE.

We should blame our government and tax code for giving such loopholes.

ciTiger
May 27, 2011, 09:40 AM
It's true Apple care here in Europe always confused me since we are supposed to have 2 years standard warranty and not just a Year... What Apple employees claim when asked is that the standard warranty is indeed 2 years but after a year without Apple Care the warranty is only valid for certain types of malfunctions although they don't specify which...
While Apple is supposed to cover most things I m not really sure what the standard warranty covers but I guess it should be similar right?

maloderous
May 27, 2011, 09:41 AM
And while I'm at it, with almost 70BN in cash, would it KILL you to manufacture SOMETHING in America? All you want to do is duck taxes and pay slaves to make your crap. Typical corporate blood-sucking whores.

sure, if you want $2000 base-model iMacs.

Small White Car
May 27, 2011, 09:41 AM
Why blame Apple for taking advantage of a HUGE loophole in the Tax law? Even as individuals we can't wait for a deduction or so (a lot of people buy homes to take advantage of tax shelters) so are we surprised that a multibillion company would do that? Look at GE.

We should blame our government and tax code for giving such loopholes.

Well, the point is that Apple is asking for more loopholes that doen't exist yet.

But then they should tell the government to say "no." Make people angry about it and make sure the government knows people don't like it.

Just telling Apple to not even ask is a waste of time, I think.

Tiger8
May 27, 2011, 09:42 AM
would it KILL you to manufacture SOMETHING in America? All you want to do is duck taxes and pay slaves to make your crap. Typical corporate blood-sucking whores.
Would it KILL you to pay $1,500 for the iPad 2?

Aidoneus
May 27, 2011, 09:42 AM
There's an important distinction you learn in accounting classes between tax avoidance and tax evasion. A company would be stupid (and be doing a disservice to its shareholders) if it didn't pursue every legal avenue to avoid taxes. Tax evasion on the other hand, is illegally avoiding taxes, using methods that go against GAAP to hide profits or some other form of fraud.

I suspect Apple is avoiding taxes. In that case, if you want them to pay more in taxes, go after the government, not the company. You can't lobby a company to act irrationally and win.

This.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't companies legally obliged to avoid taxes wherever possible? Surely doing otherwise would be acting against the interests of shareholders, and they could be taken to court.

FriarNurgle
May 27, 2011, 09:44 AM
Why all the outrage? This is standard business practice in the US. The entire tax code needs rewritten, but who do you think will end up writing it? The corporate lobbyists will ensure it still works out for their benefit.

RalfTheDog
May 27, 2011, 09:44 AM
If a country is sheltering money by sending jobs out of the United States, and they want a one time tax break to bring those jobs back to America, I say, Go for it!

chaosbunny
May 27, 2011, 09:45 AM
Well, that's the way the overcomplicated tax system is supposed to work. Big corporation pay peanuts while the majority is payed by the middle class and small companies.

mzeb
May 27, 2011, 09:45 AM
There's an important distinction you learn in accounting classes between tax avoidance and tax evasion. A company would be stupid (and be doing a disservice to its shareholders) if it didn't pursue every legal avenue to avoid taxes. Tax evasion on the other hand, is illegally avoiding taxes, using methods that go against GAAP to hide profits or some other form of fraud.

I suspect Apple is avoiding taxes. In that case, if you want them to pay more in taxes, go after the government, not the company. You can't lobby a company to act irrationally and win.

That's the way it looks to me to. Apple hasn't done anything illegal, and what's happening as far as I can tell is that the US is trying to become more competitive in it's corporate taxes. That's why Apple wants to move money back in. That's why we're seeing the datacenters go up in the US (well, that and better US connection speeds). It may actually behoove the US economy on the whole (increased jobs due to more $$ in the US) to allow this break.

PraisiX-windows
May 27, 2011, 09:46 AM
I live in Denmark, and at least here it's like this.
They need to cover our products for 2 years, however, if the problem that might occur with our product is due to "user error" (i.e. negligence etc.) they don't have to, so I believe yeah, we got 2 years of warranty standard, but convincing the manufacturers that the error is a manufacturing related issue and not a user created one, that becomes hard after a few months. - Some companies are way harder than others to convince.

TheralSadurns
May 27, 2011, 09:48 AM
Wow... the Italians are dicks and know nothing about the law.

There are NO required WARRANTIES in Europe.
What IS required is a two year defects liability. But what does that mean?

For normal consumers this means:
In the first 90 days after purchasing a computer you will get a replacement for ANY defect, as it is assumed that whatever you bought was defective WHEN you bought it. In this case APPLE would have to prove otherwise (i.e. you dropped the Book on the floor etc....)

AFTER these 90 days, YOU have to prove that the defect was already present THE MOMENT you BOUGHT the device. For this you need an expert to certify this, which of course is really never possible.
'Hey... my display doesn't work... and um... it never really did!' <-- yeah SURE.
The only thing to get thru with it (except for very rare singular instances) is if a defect reaches class-action status. Which would sort of prove that the defect was already present when bought.

What does THAT then mean?
The European law to REQUIRE a 2 year defects liability is (at least in the electronics sector) 99.999999% worthless.

So really... what is the deal here ?!

42streetsdown
May 27, 2011, 09:52 AM
Why blame Apple for taking advantage of a HUGE loophole in the Tax law? Even as individuals we can't wait for a deduction or so (a lot of people buy homes to take advantage of tax shelters) so are we surprised that a multibillion company would do that? Look at GE.

We should blame our government and tax code for giving such loopholes.

the problem i think is that the loop holes exist because of lobbying from corporations. so in a way it is the companies fault

econgeek
May 27, 2011, 09:52 AM
And yet...yeah. US Uncut is absolutely right. We should all be complaining about such things.

The Government made the tax law. Apple is complying with it. This means they are keeping money from business operated overseas overseas since the government wants a cut of it if they repatriate it, even though it was earned over seas--- and taxes were paid overseas.

US Uncut is just trying to take the focus off of the massive overspending going on at the federal government level.

Remember until 1915, there was no federal income tax, and the government was able to operate just fine.

It is not apple's fault that the past 40 years of control by republicans and democrats, neither party has been able to get the federal government to be fiscally irresponsible.

RichardBeer
May 27, 2011, 09:52 AM
As I understand it, Apple Care offers three years of protection. However the fact that you can only buy Apple Care within a certain period of purchase means that you only really get two years extended, this I think is a rip off, especially considering how much Apple Care costs.

I may not understand how it works but that's how it seems to me.

Well the governments are ones to talk, tax is just their way of stealing the money from the producer by coercion and then pouring it down a drain. I'd rather Apple withhold tax and use it to produce products than fork it over to a body who helped create a financial mess in the first place..

mentholiptus
May 27, 2011, 09:56 AM
You know, I love Apple. I'm a shareholder and I want them to become as rich as possible.

And yet...yeah. US Uncut is absolutely right. We should all be complaining about such things.

I could be wrong, and I'm not condoning tax dodging (especially by a company valued at $302 billion), but I thought this group wanted to bring the money back into the US tax free and in return they would spend all that money on creating new jobs within their companies and growing their businesses here in the U.S..

If these companies kept their word, then I'd rather this cash wound up in the pockets of college grads and unemployed americans rather than bailing out banks or paying our politicians pensions, etc.

Michael73
May 27, 2011, 09:56 AM
I wish Apple would make AppleCare more simple by doing this...

If I buy an Apple product and AppleCare at the same time, either make AppleCare cheaper to account for the overlapping time or reduce the initial price of the product.

If I buy an Apple product and then buy AppleCare at a later date, either pro-rate the price of AppleCare to account for the overlap or offer the buyer an apple or iTunes gift card.

In all the cases except where the initial product warranty and AppleCare completely overlap, I think this would satisfy the Italians. In the cases where there is complete overlap, no AppleCare should be sold.

econgeek
May 27, 2011, 09:57 AM
Typical corporate blood-sucking whores.

You seem to think that Apple should be operated for YOUR personal benefit. That they should be made, under threat of jail terms, to pay more money into the government to fund programs that you support.

Why not cut government spending? Why not kick in more money yourself, if you want to fund these programs?

If you want to know why businesses locate themselves overseas, it is because the more you see them as your property to exploit for your benefit, the more incentive they have to relocate to a jurisdiction that is happy to have them.

That's economics.

These kinds of anti-business policies just result in even MORE lost jobs as companies relocate.... and you can't blame them.

It's not as if the federal government is being responsible with its spending, or has been in the past 40 years.

SimonTheSoundMa
May 27, 2011, 09:58 AM
We get 6 years in the England and Wales under the Sales of Goods Act. Not quite a guarantee, but a product in this time has to be "durable" and "of satisfactory quality". It's a little wish-washy, and doesn't mean you will get it fixed for free in all cases, but a 2.5 year old MBP, which has a faulty IC on the logicboard, shouldn't break for example. Parts like batteries have a shorter life so if it is 2 years old it may not get repaired. Same is with a washing machine that is 1.5 years old, you again can argue it wasn't durable as a washing machine should be, you expect them to last much longer. First 6 months it is up to the retailer to prove it's your fault (like physical damage), after that the onus is on the customer. Most cases they can be tracked back to a manufacturing fault or design flaw. Warranty's are not worth it, most people never require a repair, and those that do Sales of Goods Act may come in to play anyway.

My 4 year old iMac failed, Apple did fix it for free once I said they shouldn't break like that.

Really worth a read: http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2006/jun/01/yourrights.legal4

iStudentUK
May 27, 2011, 10:00 AM
In the first 90 days after purchasing a computer...

It is actually 6 months. For the first 6 months the burden of proof is on the seller to prove the user didn't damage the product, after 6 months it reverses.

The European law to REQUIRE a 2 year defects liability is (at least in the electronics sector) 99.999999% worthless.

Actually the law is quite useful. It depends on the country within the EU as laws are implemented slightly differently. However, in the UK I don't normally bother with extended warranties as the law is very useful.

The "at time of delivery" is not a big issue. Say my MacBook has a dodgy wire inside it, and it becomes detached a year later. The fault is the lose wire which was there all along, the detachment is just the manifestation. Remember you only have to prove "on balance" in most countries, so 51% will do. Some people I know have had success taking various companies to court over faulty goods.

The problem is people thinking this law says "all goods have a 2 year warranty". What is actually says is all goods must be "fit for purpose" and if an indication that they are not fit for purposes arises a consumer cannot be prevented from trying to make a claim in the first 2 years. Basically the 2 years is a statute of limitations (thankfully in the UK it is 6 years!).

chaosbunny
May 27, 2011, 10:00 AM
the problem i think is that the loop holes exist because of lobbying from corporations. so in a way it is the companies fault

Sure, who pays for the election campaigns? So whom does a politician serve?

TWSS37
May 27, 2011, 10:01 AM
sure, if you want $2000 base-model iMacs.

Right, because the current pricing models are so affordable!

benpatient
May 27, 2011, 10:02 AM
There's an important distinction you learn in accounting classes between tax avoidance and tax evasion. A company would be stupid (and be doing a disservice to its shareholders) if it didn't pursue every legal avenue to avoid taxes. Tax evasion on the other hand, is illegally avoiding taxes, using methods that go against GAAP to hide profits or some other form of fraud.

I suspect Apple is avoiding taxes. In that case, if you want them to pay more in taxes, go after the government, not the company. You can't lobby a company to act irrationally and win.

The problem is that Apple can and will spend millions of dollars lobbying (buying) congress to make sure that the tax code contains the loopholes they need to, as you put it, "avoid" taxes. This is how oil companies end up with tax credits and GE ends up owing negative dollars in taxes. Corporate lobbyists write the bills and give them to the congresspeople, who "introduce" them as written, and vote those bills into law. unless someone raises too much stink about it—Then they just add the bill to another law that is too important to vote against.

The entire system is broken, and it comes down to this concept that corporations are people and that money is speech. Those may be, aside from the dred scott case, the two worst decisions the supreme court has ever made.

Saying "they're not technically breaking the laws" is absurd. They wrote the laws in the first place.

Macsterguy
May 27, 2011, 10:10 AM
There's an important distinction you learn in accounting classes between tax avoidance and tax evasion. A company would be stupid (and be doing a disservice to its shareholders) if it didn't pursue every legal avenue to avoid taxes. Tax evasion on the other hand, is illegally avoiding taxes, using methods that go against GAAP to hide profits or some other form of fraud.

I suspect Apple is avoiding taxes. In that case, if you want them to pay more in taxes, go after the government, not the company. You can't lobby a company to act irrationally and win.

Well said... I would only add that Tax Evasion is Treason and any U.S. company found to be doing so should be kicked out of our Country along with all sales of their products... They will then beg to come back and pay taxes...

LowKeyed
May 27, 2011, 10:10 AM
Well, that's the way the overcomplicated tax system is supposed to work. Big corporation pay peanuts while the majority is payed by the middle class and small companies.

Corporations (big or small) don't pay peanuts in taxes. They pay absolutely nothing. Corporations only collect taxes on behalf of the govt. They collect from shareholders and/or customers.

SeattleMoose
May 27, 2011, 10:11 AM
I thought anyone who would participate in a "dance in" HAD to be a mac owner...:cool:

doctor-don
May 27, 2011, 10:12 AM
In the US we have the 14, 60, or 90 day warranty policies. I really like Europes' 1 year policies :D. Plus a 2 year extended. Once the 3 years are over you get a new lappy. :)

Most of my electronics have one-year warranties. If I buy them using my VISA card, that is extended to two years.

As for taxes, if I can't do sketchy things to dodge em, neither should Apple.

If you were a business, you would be able to 'dodge' taxes by taking advantage of loopholes in the tax laws.

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-gb) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8F190 Safari/6533.18.5)

I've been pointing out for ages that EU law offers protection to consumers that can make AppleCare unnecessary in some circumstances. Glad to see the Italians may be addressing this. However, EU law doesn't mandate a 2 year warranty, it is a bit more complex than that. People in the EU should not assume that all electronics they buy are automatically covered for 2 years. It is about understanding the subtle difference between the legal coverage and AppleCare and deciding if the extra money is worth it.

Pointing out for AGES? Two years?

There's an important distinction you learn in accounting classes between tax avoidance and tax evasion. A company would be stupid (and be doing a disservice to its shareholders) if it didn't pursue every legal avenue to avoid taxes. Tax evasion on the other hand, is illegally avoiding taxes, using methods that go against GAAP to hide profits or some other form of fraud.

I suspect Apple is avoiding taxes. In that case, if you want them to pay more in taxes, go after the government, not the company. You can't lobby a company to act irrationally and win.

Lobbyists in D.C. have paid for the creation of those tax loopholes for the benefit of the companies they represent. Our tax code is so convoluted that educated people can no longer do their own taxes.

Why blame Apple for taking advantage of a HUGE loophole in the Tax law? Even as individuals we can't wait for a deduction or so (a lot of people buy homes to take advantage of tax shelters) so are we surprised that a multibillion company would do that? Look at GE.

We should blame our government and tax code for giving such loopholes.

The Congress doesn't have the balls to revise the tax laws. They would lose those payoffs ... um, contributions ... from big business.

doctor-don
May 27, 2011, 10:13 AM
Well said... I would only add that Tax Evasion is Treason and any U.S. company found to be doing so should be kicked out of our Country along with all sales of their products... They will then beg to come back and pay taxes...

Spammers: OFF WITH THEIR HEADS.

DonSqueak
May 27, 2011, 10:15 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-gb) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8F190 Safari/6533.18.5)

I've been pointing out for ages that EU law offers protection to consumers that can make AppleCare unnecessary in some circumstances. Glad to see the Italians may be addressing this. However, EU law doesn't mandate a 2 year warranty, it is a bit more complex than that. People in the EU should not assume that all electronics they buy are automatically covered for 2 years. It is about understanding the subtle difference between the legal coverage and AppleCare and deciding if the extra money is worth it.

It’s actually quite easy: The mandatory 2 years are only for defects that were already present on the day of purchase, and the vendor is responsible if anything breaks that. Burden of proof is on the vendor during the first year, on the buyer in the second year.

The warranty (in Apple’s case one year) that the producer gives you covers all defects that occur after purchase. Same with Apple Care. Thus, the Italian complaint misses the point completely.

MacNewsFix
May 27, 2011, 10:16 AM
....is some of that offshore money come back into the United States.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/blogs/press-here/Apple-Cisco-Push-Washington-for-Tax-Holiday-116429449.html

It is fascinating to see how companies respond to taxes. In Illinois, the corporate tax was recently raised quite a bit with the move spearheaded by the governor. Lots of chest pounding and theater. "We're going to make these corporations pay!" Immediately, governors from all over the country began running full page ads in Illinois newspapers inviting Illinois based companies to move to their much more tax friendly states. In the end, the governor had to go around to all the big boys (ex. Sears, Motorola, Boeing,...,...,etc) and give them individual tax deals. What happens to the mid-sized and little guys without the clout? Screwed. :mad:

CindyRed
May 27, 2011, 10:16 AM
I love that fact that lax labor laws and factory cities keep my iPod in a nice affordable under $200 range. Selling those iPods to those same factory workers is also a great way to make your magic numbers towards per unit cost proliferation, but c'mon, Apple! Pay dem taxes like the rest of us, no matter where that profit is made. It's enough that dey took'er jobs!

jav6454
May 27, 2011, 10:16 AM
If I pay taxes and can't avoid them, so should Apple. They are not special to deserve tax cuts.

LowKeyed
May 27, 2011, 10:17 AM
It's true Apple care here in Europe always confused me since we are supposed to have 2 years standard warranty and not just a Year... What Apple employees claim when asked is that the standard warranty is indeed 2 years but after a year without Apple Care the warranty is only valid for certain types of malfunctions although they don't specify which...
While Apple is supposed to cover most things I m not really sure what the standard warranty covers but I guess it should be similar right?

I don't know what laws exist in europe with regard to warranties, but since AppleCare is not a warranty i don't see how they apply. Keep in mind that AppleCare is an extended service plan which legally makes a huge difference, even here in the US. AppleCare Service doesn't overlap with any warranty coverage. AppleCare provides phone support in the first year of ownership after the first 90 days and after the first year it add additional support/service for hardware and software issues that is similar to what would be covered by a warranty.

ThatsMeRight
May 27, 2011, 10:18 AM
I live in Denmark, and at least here it's like this.
They need to cover our products for 2 years, however, if the problem that might occur with our product is due to "user error" (i.e. negligence etc.) they don't have to, so I believe yeah, we got 2 years of warranty standard, but convincing the manufacturers that the error is a manufacturing related issue and not a user created one, that becomes hard after a few months. - Some companies are way harder than others to convince.
In Europe the minimum actually really is 2 years but every country can change it a bit. Most countries indeed say what you do: in the first 6 months an error occures, the user has to prove nothing. In the following 18 months you must prove it's not your fault (for example, if your TV suddenly stops working within 5 months after purchase, they must exchange it for a new one without you proving anything. If it breaks down in 12 months, than you have to prove it's not your fault (which is easy: there's no water damage, no crack or something like that).

And like in The Netherlands, no real expiring date is mentioned in the Law but you have the right on a good product. This depends on price, manufacturer and things like that.

So if your iMac brakes down after 3,5 years without you doing anything wrong, than Apple must replace it (because Apple is related to high quality, and the price of a Mac is very high). If your cheap PC worth 200 euros breaks down after 2,5 years than that's it. If your iMac breaks down after 5 years, than some sort of a deal must be made. You can't get a brand new iMac because your iMac from 5 years ago just stopped working. A deal can be made: for example that the customer pays 50% of the reparation costs.

But in general, everywhere in Europe you have 2 years warranty. That's where Apple and other companies are smart: because when Apple and other companies like Dell offer 'extended warranty', than you are not really paying for an extra year warranty but extra support (like next-day reparation, or free telephone support).


It’s actually quite easy: The mandatory 2 years are only for defects that were already present on the day of purchase, and the vendor is responsible if anything breaks that. Burden of proof is on the vendor during the first year, on the buyer in the second year.

The warranty (in Apple’s case one year) that the producer gives you covers all defects that occur after purchase. Same with Apple Care. Thus, the Italian complaint misses the point completely.
That's actually not true. Maybe in the US it is, but in the EU it isn't. Even if a defect shows up later (for example a computer chip which worked fine before, but suddenly has problems for whatever reason without your fault) than it still falls under warranty. And as mentioned, it's not one year in Europe (you say: "In Apple's case one year"). Apple still has to give you 2 years of warranty, in Europe at least. Even if they only just mention one year.

DonSqueak
May 27, 2011, 10:19 AM
What does THAT then mean?
The European law to REQUIRE a 2 year defects liability is (at least in the electronics sector) 99.999999% worthless.

So really... what is the deal here ?!

That liability got me a PowerBook 12" back in the day when iBooks all had a faulty logic board. After the third return and their inability to give me a good one (the thing was over a year old) it was either full money back or accepting a different Mac in exchange. I took a refurbished PowerBook which served me well for another two years.

mack pro
May 27, 2011, 10:21 AM
Apple makes so much money and they refuse to pay taxes. What a bunch of greedy bastards I hope they go down. This is just another example of Apple getting special treatment.

blindzero
May 27, 2011, 10:21 AM
If they don't get this one time tax break, they will continue to move administrative and other jobs overseas to curtail the tax system even more.

Am I missing something- Wouldn't the easy solution (that is great for American people and companies) be to give the one time break, close the loophole AND lower corporate tax rate all in the same bill. Seems like it'd be easy enough for people to agree on that even for Washington.

Muscle Master
May 27, 2011, 10:22 AM
I don't understand why the Gov can't just give a tax hike equal to the money they keep overseas

I find it puzzling that the American Government is tryna squeeze every cent into a budget but yet ignore taxing the hell out of this multibillion doller companies thats doing nothing but prospering.. the middle and lower class can only do so much

iPhysicist
May 27, 2011, 10:22 AM
There are NO required WARRANTIES in Europe.
Your wrong and as far as i know no warranty covers PEBKAC errors.

JAT
May 27, 2011, 10:23 AM
European law requires, however, a standard two-year warranty, overlapping or entirely coinciding with Apple's separate AppleCare offerings.
Dreamland:

Maybe Apple will start complying with the EU on this, and then just extend all of its warranties worldwide to match.

moderately
May 27, 2011, 10:25 AM
So many, when confronted with an issue concerning what business should do or not do stop at the question, "Is it legal or not?". Suggesting that protesting Apple's percieved bad actions is inappropriate and those concerned should just change the law misses both the point and the necessity of the situation.

So many of our legislators are willing to go to great lengths to do what ever business wants. Apple is part of an organization that is working to get them a 4 billion dollar tax break. Protesting this is fundamental to keeping this change from happening. with no one looking it is easier for the laws enabling this to be passed.

Further it is time for Business to be held to some moral standard. "It's nothing personal, just business" should not wash anymore. Business needs to be held to a moral standard of serving the society first, then profit.
/rant

jakerichva
May 27, 2011, 10:25 AM
Corporations (big or small) don't pay peanuts in taxes. They pay absolutely nothing. Corporations only collect taxes on behalf of the govt. They collect from shareholders and/or customers.

Actually, they only collect from customers. Shareholders then get to pay taxes on the profits again when they get dividends/sell the shares. The government gets a double dip at the money and think we don't notice. But the bottom line is there is only one entity who really pays, the end guy, the consumer. Everybody else just passes the cost along.

iStudentUK
May 27, 2011, 10:25 AM
It’s actually quite easy: The mandatory 2 years are only for defects that were already present on the day of purchase, and the vendor is responsible if anything breaks that. Burden of proof is on the vendor during the first year, on the buyer in the second year.

The warranty (in Apple’s case one year) that the producer gives you covers all defects that occur after purchase. Same with Apple Care. Thus, the Italian complaint misses the point completely.

It's 6 months before the burden switches in EU law, not 12.

The EU law is often sufficient without a manufacturer's warranty. The "at time of delivery" is an easy obstacle to overcome. The idea is that if a product is of satisfactory quality (and it treated well by the user) then it should last a reasonable length of time. People tend to get hung up on the "at the time" issue.

But in general, everywhere in Europe you have 2 years warranty.

No you don't. You have the right to go to court over a fault that manifests itself in the first two years. That is NOT the same as everything having a 2 year warranty. The court decides whether the product was fit for purpose and how long it should have lasted.

Your wrong

Actually he is right. No EU law imposes the need for a "warranty". A warranty is slightly different to what the EU says must be present in all consumer contracts.

JAT
May 27, 2011, 10:26 AM
That liability got me a PowerBook 12" back in the day when iBooks all had a faulty logic board. After the third return and their inability to give me a good one (the thing was over a year old) it was either full money back or accepting a different Mac in exchange. I took a refurbished PowerBook which served me well for another two years.
The 3 strikes policy is typical Apple. It's not always easy to get there, and the length of Applecare is a separate issue (that also impacts this), but that is their policy.

foodog
May 27, 2011, 10:26 AM
No.
I pay my taxes, you pay yours. And why, pray tell, do you want to bring the money back in anyway? See, THAT'S the real question.

And while I'm at it, with almost 70BN in cash, would it KILL you to manufacture SOMETHING in America? All you want to do is duck taxes and pay slaves to make your crap. Typical corporate blood-sucking whores.

If corporate taxes were zero. More corporations would employ more workers in the US. increasing the amount of Income taxes collected from the newly employed, and collecting Medicare & FICA from the corporation and the newly employed. Corporations don't pay taxes, they pass the tax on to the consumer as a cost of doing business. The owners of the corporations pay taxes, that would be the share holders.

maloderous
May 27, 2011, 10:30 AM
Right, because the current pricing models are so affordable!

they've never been cheaper

bossxii
May 27, 2011, 10:34 AM
No.
I pay my taxes, you pay yours. And why, pray tell, do you want to bring the money back in anyway? See, THAT'S the real question.

And while I'm at it, with almost 70BN in cash, would it KILL you to manufacture SOMETHING in America? All you want to do is duck taxes and pay slaves to make your crap. Typical corporate blood-sucking whores.

Until the blood sucking Unions that pay high school drop outs $70 bucks an hour to put in 3 bolts in a widget and then retire after 30 years at $55 an hour. No, Apple won't be building any computers in the US.

That is why we have Obama motors (aka Chevrolet) trying to sell $45,000 pick up trucks that Toyota can import for $30,000. If you want to be pissed at an organization, the Unions that have overpriced uneducated labor should be at the top of that list.

JAT
May 27, 2011, 10:35 AM
Corporations (big or small) don't pay peanuts in taxes. They pay absolutely nothing. Corporations only collect taxes on behalf of the govt. They collect from shareholders and/or customers.
That's not really true. A corporation is a separate tax entity, and must pay its calculated tax. Now, corps are better at making their share as little as possible. As to "absolutely nothing", Apple lists $2b, $3.8b, $4.5b as income tax the last 3 fiscal years. I don't know if that's as much as we'd all LIKE them to be paying as they have been very successful, but I'm pretty sure it isn't "nothing".

Collecting from customers is VAT or sales tax, and that is outside of corporate responsibility. They are simply required to collect & remit by the taxing authority. You can dislike the tax, but this one has nothing to do with a retailer. Frankly, if I sell you my car for $10k, you and I as individuals are supposed to calculate and remit sales tax, too.

SimonTheSoundMa
May 27, 2011, 10:35 AM
That's actually not true. Maybe in the US it is, but in the EU it isn't. Even if a defect shows up later (for example a computer chip which worked fine before, but suddenly has problems for whatever reason without your fault) than it still falls under warranty. And as mentioned, it's not one year in Europe (you say: "In Apple's case one year"). Apple still has to give you 2 years of warranty, in Europe at least. Even if they only just mention one year.

I was having a repair last week at the Apple Store in Birmingham.

A lady next to me was being seen by the genius. USB ports had failed. Genius printed off the quote for the work, £600, the MacBook was only 1 year and 2 months old. I told her about the Sales of Goods Act when the genius went upstairs. She stated this to the genius, he went to see the manager and came back and said "as a gesture of good will we will repair it for free".

Another guy came in and his screen stopped working. 2 years old MacBook Pro. Almost £500 for the repair. I had to intervene and said "do you see any physical damage?", no, the customer said it had been having problems where the backlight would flash on and off, obviously the problem occurred in the first year. Again, saved him £600. Again, other genius said the same "as a gesture of good will". I wanted to reply "no, within the law you will fix it" but I held myself back.

MCP-511
May 27, 2011, 10:38 AM
You know, I love Apple. I'm a shareholder and I want them to become as rich as possible.

And yet...yeah. US Uncut is absolutely right. We should all be complaining about such things.

But I kind of think protesting the companies is stupid. They'll always try to get the best deal they can. They should, that's just smart. It's the government that sets the rules, we should be complaining to them if the rules aren't strong enough.

This is like standing by the side of the road with a 'slow down' sign instead of trying to actually change the speed limit.

I agree, the tax law is broken. You can't fault any company for exploiting a loophole, we all would if we could. A protest in Washington would be more appropriate.

ikir
May 27, 2011, 10:39 AM
As far i know things are quite different.

It is 2 years warranty if the PROBLEM WAS AT ORIGIN (first day) not later. So you have 2 years to says "Ehi it was broken since the beginning". Lame, stupid and typical italian (i'm italian) but protect you from industrial faults in production, a thing apple usually do itself increasing warranty in defective products.

And you have right to pretend in 2 years to have a product same as the specs. For example you bought a machine with 4GB ram which can accomodate 16GB as specs says, but for any reason you can't upgrade to 16GB, you have the right to pretend one as the original specs said.

My 2 cents.

iStudentUK
May 27, 2011, 10:40 AM
Again, other genius said the same "as a gesture of good will". I wanted to reply "no, within the law you will fix it" but I held myself back.

Good on you!

That response is pretty typical. If they say they are repairing under the Sale of Goods Act two thing happen. Firstly, the customer is educated on their rights and may try and use them again, not good from a big company's perspective! Secondly, they admit there was a fault that was their fault, again not good. Saying "goodwill" admits nothing but keeps the customer happy.

People say that all the time. "X company is really good, they repaired Y even after the warranty was up!". They don't realise it may have been a legal requirement anyway.

ikir
May 27, 2011, 10:42 AM
I was having a repair last week at the Apple Store in Birmingham.

A lady next to me was being seen by the genius. USB ports had failed. Genius printed off the quote for the work, £600, the MacBook was only 1 year and 2 months old. I told her about the Sales of Goods Act when the genius went upstairs. She stated this to the genius, he went to see the manager and came back and said "as a gesture of good will we will repair it for free".

Another guy came in and his screen stopped working. 2 years old MacBook Pro. Almost £500 for the repair. I had to intervene and said "do you see any physical damage?", no, the customer said it had been having problems where the backlight would flash on and off, obviously the problem occurred in the first year. Again, saved him £600. Again, other genius said the same "as a gesture of good will". I wanted to reply "no, within the law you will fix it" but I held myself back.

Why because you opened these notebooks? When people says "it stopped working" they mean, i dropped water/beer/nutella on it. believe me it is not a joke i work in a computer shop/support center.

A friend of mine work in a Apple Store in italy and they fix a lot of thing, really for "good will", when the damage is even accidental one.

SimonTheSoundMa
May 27, 2011, 10:44 AM
A warranty is an insurance policy. Most retailers take out a policy with an insurance company, Apple included. Unsure who Apple are with, but it is in the small print of your AppleCare. A guarantee, just forget it, it's meaningless, as are warranties. Also remember, a warranty cannot take away your statute rights, which comes on to my next point.

Some retailers also try to say "it is out of guarantee, it has broken, there is no way we can help you". Ugh, wrong! They have to get it repaired within the 6 year period, even if it costs you to get it repaired, if not they have to find a replacement or give you the money (cost of the product with depreciation). Also, the contract is between the retailer and the customer, so if they say "well not our problem you need to contact the manufacturer" is also wrong.



HMV have a headache when people returned PS3's when Other OS was taken off. This comes under "product as described" when new. They were giving out £150 to £200 for each console. Some retailers said you need to contact Sony, which is wrong.

TWSS37
May 27, 2011, 10:45 AM
they've never been cheaper

That's like being excited that gas has gone down from $4.10 to $3.99 a gallon. It might be cheaper but it's still too expensive!

Krevnik
May 27, 2011, 10:50 AM
The problem is that Apple can and will spend millions of dollars lobbying (buying) congress to make sure that the tax code contains the loopholes they need to, as you put it, "avoid" taxes. This is how oil companies end up with tax credits and GE ends up owing negative dollars in taxes. Corporate lobbyists write the bills and give them to the congresspeople, who "introduce" them as written, and vote those bills into law. unless someone raises too much stink about it—Then they just add the bill to another law that is too important to vote against.

The entire system is broken, and it comes down to this concept that corporations are people and that money is speech. Those may be, aside from the dred scott case, the two worst decisions the supreme court has ever made.

Saying "they're not technically breaking the laws" is absurd. They wrote the laws in the first place.

It's a mistake to assume that the tax law is written specifically to include loopholes. Part of the problem is the whole issue of who owes what to which country when you start talking about international corporations. I can bet you that this money very likely came from non-US buyers and is locked up in non-US accounts. They may have even already paid tax on it to the local government where the money is based, depending on their laws. To bring it back into the country would mean paying a tax on that money.

This is a different type of issue than strictly domestic tax issues, as you have multiple sovereign states involved with their own tax policies. It gets a bit harder to see exactly how they interact when planning tax code. But there are certainly benefits to encouraging companies to take money from overseas customers, bringing it into the local economy and spending it there. As it is now, Apple has quite a bit of money that doesn't make sense to bring into the country due to the tax code, so it won't get spent here producing local jobs.

That all said, I really don't know where I fall in the debate, because I see massive pros and cons to either approach (ensuring taxes on all revenue coming into a country, versus encouraging a company to bring their profits home to spend on local development).

koobcamuk
May 27, 2011, 10:56 AM
That's like being excited that gas has gone down from $4.10 to $3.99 a gallon. It might be cheaper but it's still too expensive!

Try buying gas in the UK or Europe if you think that is expensive. You have no idea.

SimonTheSoundMa
May 27, 2011, 10:56 AM
That's like being excited that gas has gone down from $4.10 to $3.99 a gallon. It might be cheaper but it's still too expensive!

Not bad, paying $8.50 a US gallon here.

cadillac1234
May 27, 2011, 11:02 AM
No.
I pay my taxes, you pay yours. And why, pray tell, do you want to bring the money back in anyway? See, THAT'S the real question.

And while I'm at it, with almost 70BN in cash, would it KILL you to manufacture SOMETHING in America? All you want to do is duck taxes and pay slaves to make your crap. Typical corporate blood-sucking whores.

I love Apple products and innovation but I completely agree with your post.

Just because you can take advantage of an extremely flawed tax and workforce system doesn't mean you should do it. You end up killing your base who will be purchasing your goods

logandzwon
May 27, 2011, 11:02 AM
I see a bunch of people saying, "I pay taxes, so should Apple." However, either businesses have learned to type, or you guys seem to believe Apple is a person. Apple is not as person. You are a person. You pay income tax. Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, Ronald Wayne, and Tim Cook all pay income tax. Every employee at Apple pays income tax. You can not tax something that isn't a person. What can you can do is Tax a group of people for being a group, then tax then again with income tax. This is stupid. Corporation should not be taxed, nor should not be allowed to donate money in any form.

If you having understanding this, think a much smaller company. Imagine if you incorporated, and your corporation had one employee, (you.) Your corporation send you out to do your job, and the job site writes your corp a check. The corp then pays you with that check. Now imagine you get 3 friends together, each gets 25% share in this company. You all four now go out and do a job. Your company gets paid. As the CEO you decided to support your favored politician, and you donate a little to your favor charity. Then you pay a little tax. The rest is paid back to and your 3 employees. Who paid the tax? Not the corporation, a corp is not a person. At the end of the day the tax and the donations came out of the checks of all four people, each of whom now need to pay income tax.


We should simply eliminate corporate donations and taxes altogether. Both are forms of stealing from the employees, and the share holders. We SHOULD tax IMPORTS. If it's cheaper to build over seas, great, send them in. But tax them for costing US jobs.

chris200x9
May 27, 2011, 11:10 AM
And while I'm at it, with almost 70BN in cash, would it KILL you to manufacture SOMETHING in America? All you want to do is duck taxes and pay slaves to make your crap. Typical corporate blood-sucking whores.

sure, if you want $2000 base-model iMacs.

And what pray tell is the 70BN in cash doing? Nothing! I mean what about corporate patriotism, why will no company move and create American jobs. All it would take is receiving less profit. You would still be filthy rich, just less so. Also don't give me that crap about investors, google has a smaller market cap and less cash on hand but has ~1.6 the stock price. Again what is apple's 70BN doing, it's certainly not paying dividends. I have no doubt in my mind apple, or pretty much any big name company, could shift operation to America and still flourish while keeping prices the same.

iPhysicist
May 27, 2011, 11:12 AM
Actually he is right. No EU law imposes the need for a "warranty". A warranty is slightly different to what the EU says must be present in all consumer contracts.
So what is the benefit of a warranty over a simple defect liability? Maybe this is not as important as one may think as most companies offer a two year or even longer guaranty ((ger:Garantie), maybe its the same as warranty maybe not) for their products.

notabadname
May 27, 2011, 11:14 AM
Agree, this should be 2 threads. As to warranty, this explains why the higher prices exist out of the US many times. That "required" 2 year warranty has to be covered by revenue from somewhere.

blackpond
May 27, 2011, 11:16 AM
Paying as little in taxes as possible is as American as apple pie.

WestonHarvey1
May 27, 2011, 11:18 AM
It's amazing what some people have the free time to do. I wish I could just vacate my job and run around protesting random nonsense all day. Unfortunately, I have to work so that I can meet all my tax obligations.

kristo
May 27, 2011, 11:19 AM
For me its easy. Apple is free to do as they please with the warranty/tax/Chinese slave labour, whatever.

Take it out on them financially (don't buy their stuff) and those that enable them (don't elect paid off officials/politicians)

I mean, everyone just bitches endlessly here (here being the internets) but yeah, shut up and just do something.

Go into a apple store, look at something and tell the sales person "Because of your corporate policy, no sale". Sure people can whine that it might cause stores to close and people to lose their jobs, oh well. Make something better. Go local again.

I am amazed that people defend this kind of thing. Corporate social responsibility seems to be a joke.

As everyone likes to say, money talks, but ultimately, they make money with us being their stuff. It's the only true way we can effect what they do.

"Sure, it's easy to say but I bet you still support big corporations, shop at Walmart etc"

Not really either. As much as possible I stick to local shops/businesses. I am lucky, I earn a good salary so I give some of back to my local community. If I don't take responsibility, who will. Not the slacktivists and apologists on the internets.

Ok, seem to have gotten sidetracked.

I just say, buy responsibly.

wheezy
May 27, 2011, 11:20 AM
... We should simply eliminate corporate donations and taxes altogether. Both are forms of stealing from the employees, and the share holders.

Logic! Finally! Thank you! Far too many people focus on what the politicians and stupid non-profit tax-evading protestor groups are doing/saying and not what is actually going on. "Oh! They made X Billion dollars and only paid X Million in taxes? Those criminals!" Nevermind the fact that every product they sell is taxed time and time again.


Import tax on bringing it in from China
Shipping company pays taxes on the revenue from shipping
Shipping company pays tax on the gas it uses to ship the item
Driver of shipping truck pays income tax for having a job
Employee pays taxes from personal income for selling you the product at their job
You pay sales tax when you buy the product


Now you want Apple (and other corps) to pay more money to the government just because they happen to make a product people want to buy, and have established sound business practices to (heaven-forbid) make a profit on that product? Do you WANT them to send the majority of their profits to the government and stop innovating on new products?

Do you get upset at yourself when you find a nice tax-credit available to you? Do you go get bitchy at your neighbor who just bought a house and got several thousand dollars in deductions for doing so?

At what point do you start to realize that the US government collects more money than ANYTHING, PERSON, COMPANY in the world and yet manages to be in debt more than a TRILLION dollars of what it took from everyone.

The problem isn't "big bad corporations" that actually make a profit from consumers choosing to buy the products, it's the government that takes money from everyone just for being here and living. If you want to protest something worthwhile, go find all the places of useless government spending in your city and protest that your taxes are paying for it.

</long rant>

iStudentUK
May 27, 2011, 11:22 AM
So what is the benefit of a warranty over a simple defect liability? Maybe this is not as important as one may think as most companies offer a two year or even longer guaranty ((ger:Garantie), maybe its the same as warranty maybe not) for their products.

There isn't much difference in practice. One small difference is that a warranty gives a definite amount of time (eg AppleCare gives 3 years). The law gives a maximum amount of time possible (eg in the UK 6 years) but you have to show that the duration the product lasted was not reasonable.

So a biro should maybe last a few days? A DVD player 2 years? A MacBook 3 years? The judge decides what is reasonable in the circumstances. Take my TV, I did buy a 5 year warranty for £30, I did that it because £30 was a very good price, and I thought convincing a judge a TV (which was a cheap one) should be expected to last 5 years could be a push.

Really the most important difference isn't legal at all, but in the attitude of big companies. Walk in to a store with a faulty product under warranty and they will often do a cursory check to make sure you haven't been stupid with it and damaged it yourself, then repair it quite happily. Walk in with a faulty product and try to claim under the law and you may well have to fight your case a bit more. For me saving the money on extended warranties is worth the extra time it can take to get a repair, some people may disagree.

jakerichva
May 27, 2011, 11:23 AM
That's not really true. A corporation is a separate tax entity, and must pay its calculated tax. Now, corps are better at making their share as little as possible. As to "absolutely nothing", Apple lists $2b, $3.8b, $4.5b as income tax the last 3 fiscal years. I don't know if that's as much as we'd all LIKE them to be paying as they have been very successful, but I'm pretty sure it isn't "nothing".

Collecting from customers is VAT or sales tax, and that is outside of corporate responsibility. They are simply required to collect & remit by the taxing authority. You can dislike the tax, but this one has nothing to do with a retailer. Frankly, if I sell you my car for $10k, you and I as individuals are supposed to calculate and remit sales tax, too.Two different things. VAT or sales tax, is charged directly from the purchaser at the time of purchase. If the purchaser is the consumer, the tax ends there, and the stuckee is the consumer. If the purchaser is a corporation the tax is part of their cost of business, which is recovered in their pricing. So now that tax is paid by the consumer as part of the final price, on which VAT/Sales tax is again added. Some jurisdictions allow business-to-business sales without sales tax, some don't, but in either case any cost of producing the end product is passed to the buyer. By making the corporate tax lower, the companies keep the product costs lower for consumers.

Again, companies don't PAY taxes, they COLLECT taxes. Only consumers PAY taxes.

Mattie Num Nums
May 27, 2011, 11:25 AM
Once again here comes the Apple defenders until the end people.

Apple is asking the Government to open more tax loop holes. Just like Stevies $1 dollar paycheck when in reality he gets 10's of millions of dollars in "gifts" so that instead of paying taxes he only pays capital gains. One reason why I have heard economist saying Apples "Cash" hoard is not a full view on how much "cash" Apple really has since most of that "cash" is over seas and not moving anywhere until Apple knows they don't have to be taxed on it.

Tiger8
May 27, 2011, 11:41 AM
the problem i think is that the loop holes exist because of lobbying from corporations. so in a way it is the companies fault

Towards the end of the day the more money you make the more influential you are. Fact of life.

Apple is one of thousands of US businesses that do that, and unless you work for yourself and never done a single day of work with a corporation, you are benefiting from that, too.

weckart
May 27, 2011, 11:41 AM
This is stupid. Corporation should not be taxed, nor should not be allowed to donate money in any form.

We should simply eliminate corporate donations and taxes altogether. Both are forms of stealing from the employees, and the share holders. We SHOULD tax IMPORTS. If it's cheaper to build over seas, great, send them in. But tax them for costing US jobs.

This is simplistic thinking that really needs to die. Corporations are legal persons otherwise it opens up a heap of logistical problems. Legal liability being the most obvious one. Shareholders would run a mile if they were held jointly and severally liable for everything. That is why they invest in ltd companies.

As for taxing imports - well everyone can live inside a walled garden. Just see how many jobs survive when you cannot afford to import the raw materials (including oil) needed to manufacture at a price that people can afford to pay, to say nothing of tit-for-tat taxes on your exports. Protectionism just breeds inefficiency and inflation. Oh, and communism as well :)


So what is the benefit of a warranty over a simple defect liability? Maybe this is not as important as one may think as most companies offer a two year or even longer guaranty ((ger:Garantie), maybe its the same as warranty maybe not) for their products.

Warranties cut out the doubt over who makes the restitution. After 6 months, the retailer may oblige you to seek redress in court. A 1 or 2 year warranty gives you peace of mind.

ThatsMeRight
May 27, 2011, 11:43 AM
It's 6 months before the burden switches in EU law, not 12.

The EU law is often sufficient without a manufacturer's warranty. The "at time of delivery" is an easy obstacle to overcome. The idea is that if a product is of satisfactory quality (and it treated well by the user) then it should last a reasonable length of time. People tend to get hung up on the "at the time" issue.



No you don't. You have the right to go to court over a fault that manifests itself in the first two years. That is NOT the same as everything having a 2 year warranty. The court decides whether the product was fit for purpose and how long it should have lasted.



Actually he is right. No EU law imposes the need for a "warranty". A warranty is slightly different to what the EU says must be present in all consumer contracts.You don't have to go to court at all. Just refering to the European Directives is enough. Sure, some American companies may ignore it but than there are free agencies which can support you. And yes, I've got this right from the European website ánd from the website of my (the Dutch) government. Sure, a store can be a real pain in the ass if they still ignore you, than you might have to go to court but this doesn't happen that often.

I was having a repair last week at the Apple Store in Birmingham.

A lady next to me was being seen by the genius. USB ports had failed. Genius printed off the quote for the work, £600, the MacBook was only 1 year and 2 months old. I told her about the Sales of Goods Act when the genius went upstairs. She stated this to the genius, he went to see the manager and came back and said "as a gesture of good will we will repair it for free".

Another guy came in and his screen stopped working. 2 years old MacBook Pro. Almost £500 for the repair. I had to intervene and said "do you see any physical damage?", no, the customer said it had been having problems where the backlight would flash on and off, obviously the problem occurred in the first year. Again, saved him £600. Again, other genius said the same "as a gesture of good will". I wanted to reply "no, within the law you will fix it" but I held myself back.
Yeah, you just have to mention it. Too bad so many customers don't know they have right on a longer warranty.

centauratlas
May 27, 2011, 11:50 AM
Exactly. Corporations are hidden tax collectors of government and used to trick the naive into rallying for higher taxes that they will then pay themselves - by higher prices on goods, lower wages etc.

And to top it off, corporate taxes are HIGHLY regressive so that those at the bottom pay a higher percentage than those at the top. So all the people arguing for higher corporate taxes are really arguing for higher taxes on the poor. People pay taxes, nothing else does. And shareholders (which include the "evil wealthy" and your retirement) can just invest in something else, somewhere else, leaving the non-flexible (e.g. the wage-earners and consumers) to pay the "higher corporate taxes" not to mention that most of a corporation's costs are wages meaning the wage earners get most of the corporate tax burden through lower wages.

The concept of an "employers share" (of withholding for example) is one of the hugest scams put over the gullible in the last 100 years. Ditto corporate taxes. But it serves a good political purpose - it gets the naive upset that "corporations don't pay anything" which can then be used to manipulate them into voting a particular way.

:)

Apple can either invest the money it has overseas there and pay ZERO US taxes on it. Or Apple can invest the money here in the US in jobs, research, etc.

The choice is easy for the US: compete to be friendly to investors and free -- or compete for control over people and companies and watch companies and people leave to friendlier and freer climates.



Corporations (big or small) don't pay peanuts in taxes. They pay absolutely nothing. Corporations only collect taxes on behalf of the govt. They collect from shareholders and/or customers.

Thunderhawks
May 27, 2011, 11:58 AM
You know, I love Apple. I'm a shareholder and I want them to become as rich as possible.

And yet...yeah. US Uncut is absolutely right. We should all be complaining about such things.

But I kind of think protesting the companies is stupid. They'll always try to get the best deal they can. They should, that's just smart. It's the government that sets the rules, we should be complaining to them if the rules aren't strong enough.

This is like standing by the side of the road with a 'slow down' sign instead of trying to actually change the speed limit.

I would say instead of "change the speed limit" Put a red light there!

If this is all legally possible, so be it.

This protest is like the typical storm in a water glass. They'll get some press and it will go way. Next!

centauratlas
May 27, 2011, 11:59 AM
Business needs to be held to a moral standard of serving the society first, then profit.
/rant

Who is society? Who determines what needs of society should be served first? In a free country, individuals determine that and that means doing what is legal, at minimum. Then each person decides for themselves where to spend *their* money and how on what things they think are best for society.

If YOU (and a million other people) want to go and start a business to compete with Apple or anyone else please feel free. Put your hard earned money in there or your time and then pay as much extra to the government as you want. In a free country you can do that.

Just like the people who complain about AT&T - round up 10 million other investors, each put in $5000 and start a competing company, then see if you can do it better for less money. If so, great. If not, great too because it will have been a valuable lesson.

iStudentUK
May 27, 2011, 12:00 PM
You don't have to go to court at all. Just refering to the European Directives is enough. Sure, some American companies may ignore it but than there are free agencies which can support you. And yes, I've got this right from the European website ánd from the website of my (the Dutch) government. Sure, a store can be a real pain in the ass if they still ignore you, than you might have to go to court but this doesn't happen that often.

Yes, sorry I wasn't clear. What I meant to say was if it went to court (which you of course have the option to do if you can't work it out with the company in question) then the judge would decide what is a reasonable length of time for the product to last. With a warranty it is there in black and white.

Technically, the EU directive isn't binding law. An EU directive is an instruction to member states to implement a law to that effect within a certain time limit. That is important if you do ever end up in court because a company isn't playing ball, as a court can't give effect to something that isn't law! So it is important to find how your country enabled the directive, for people in the UK it is mostly through the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended), I don't know about other countries but it is useful to find out.

jjhny
May 27, 2011, 12:01 PM
Taxes are mostly wasted to pay for the buddies of the politicians - as well as incredible amounts of fraud in most programs and more payoffs. Plus we don't even have the money that the government spends and the corporate taxes ain't gonna fix it. The math dooms us anyway. God help us when the interest rates go up - that will be it.

Personally a flat simplified tax is the answer to all the nonsense, plus the government being reduced in size by at least half.

Also, please go to the IRS site and read the forms for corporate taxes - I have - they are the most INSANE documents you will ever see. We are slaves to an insane, out of control govt bureaucracy and political class gone mad. The giant corporations have all the lawyers and accountants to deal with this - the rest of us don't, which is why we have an insane tax code.

I am not for giant centralized corporations, just I am not for giant centralized government - insane centralization is the curse of the modern world.

Tiger8
May 27, 2011, 12:10 PM
I have no doubt in my mind apple, or pretty much any big name company, could shift operation to America and still flourish while keeping prices the same.

You mean like how AUTO manufacturing in detroit is flourishing?

centauratlas
May 27, 2011, 12:11 PM
Talk about a whoosh. The point is that only people pay taxes. Corporations just collect the taxes from the consumers who buy the products through higher prices (and lower wages to employees) to pay those taxes.

Imagine a one person company, me. Say I make $10,000 per year. A friend wants to join me and she was making $10,000 per year doing consulting like me. Together we made $20,000. Say we paid 20% per year in taxes individually so we each paid $2000 in taxes and retained $8,000.

Now we form a corporation, we still bring in $20,000/year. Now we pay a 40% corporate tax rate. So, we pay $8000/year in corporate taxes, leaving $6000/year for each of the two of us ($12000 total), plus we pay 20% income taxes on the $6000 each. We can't live on that, so what do we do?

We raise our prices, now we bring in, say, $30000/year in order to pay our corporate taxes and we might break even then.

Who pays the extra money we needed for corporate taxes? The consumer of our services or goods because we raised prices!!! (Or if we had employees, we'd pay them a bit less too, or perhaps make the raise 1% instead of 3%). Who else hurts? The other person we *might* have hired to help with the extra money we spent on taxes since we incorporated -- they're unemployed.

Who pays the largest percentage of their income out each year for goods and services (groceries, oil changes etc)? The poor! Corporate taxes hit the poor the hardest because people with more income can choose to spend a smaller percentage.


* All of this applies to C Corps and ignores S Corps, LLCs etc because they can only scale so far and all of the large companies like Apple, Microsoft, AT&T etc are C Corps.


That's not really true. A corporation is a separate tax entity, and must pay its calculated tax. Now, corps are better at making their share as little as possible. As to "absolutely nothing", Apple lists $2b, $3.8b, $4.5b as income tax the last 3 fiscal years. I don't know if that's as much as we'd all LIKE them to be paying as they have been very successful, but I'm pretty sure it isn't "nothing".

Collecting from customers is VAT or sales tax, and that is outside of corporate responsibility. They are simply required to collect & remit by the taxing authority. You can dislike the tax, but this one has nothing to do with a retailer. Frankly, if I sell you my car for $10k, you and I as individuals are supposed to calculate and remit sales tax, too.

MagnusVonMagnum
May 27, 2011, 12:12 PM
"Apple plays huge games with their taxes. By disguising profits in the U.S. as foreign earnings in low-tax countries, Apple dodges billions of dollars of taxes they should be paying," the group said in a statement this week.

This shouldn't really be a shock to anyone. They, like many corporations today also dodge paying U.S. workers by hiring Chinese workers at pennies on the dollar. It's called GREED.

Guess what? Steve Jobs isn't your friend. He's not your buddy. He's not a patriot that cares about his country. He's a greedy CEO that sends US jobs overseas to make even more money. If Mamon is your bag, then you probably worship the guy. If not, you probably don't.

Mr.damien
May 27, 2011, 12:12 PM
Would it KILL you to pay $1,500 for the iPad 2?

Hahaha so funny. typical Republican answer.

Just a reminder that Germany is producing a LOT at home and was still the first exporter of goods until this year. China just go ahead but it's 90 millions vs 1,2 billions people country.

Moreover if the taxes is as high as the money you win by moving production your argument of 1500$ iPad is just ****ed. KitchenAid is also still producing in USA and have good price regarding made in China or Korea competition and better quality.

Get a brain.

jonnysods
May 27, 2011, 12:13 PM
Pay up Apple. The rest of us have to!

Mr.damien
May 27, 2011, 12:15 PM
You mean like how AUTO manufacturing in detroit is flourishing?

Or you mean like Toyota still making cars in Japan, Europe, USA and which is the first constructor of cars in the world and the most profitable ?

The funny part is that now they started moving production to low cost country for some parts - as you seems to like - they have now mass recall for bad manufacturing that cost them a LOT more than benefits they made by moving their production ...

AppleDroid
May 27, 2011, 12:19 PM
Paying as little in taxes as possible is as American as apple pie.

Sadly for corporations this is right. We wouldn't have such an enormous deficit if they paid even half of the taxes owed. (Especially Big Oil, GE etc)

ThatsMeRight
May 27, 2011, 12:26 PM
Yes, sorry I wasn't clear. What I meant to say was if it went to court (which you of course have the option to do if you can't work it out with the company in question) then the judge would decide what is a reasonable length of time for the product to last. With a warranty it is there in black and white.

Technically, the EU directive isn't binding law. An EU directive is an instruction to member states to implement a law to that effect within a certain time limit. That is important if you do ever end up in court because a company isn't playing ball, as a court can't give effect to something that isn't law! So it is important to find how your country enabled the directive, for people in the UK it is mostly through the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended), I don't know about other countries but it is useful to find out.
Yes, that's correct! :) An EU directive is indeed an instruction. You could better see it as a 'law with space'. E.g. a EU directive can say: "40% of a cigarette pack should be covered with health warnings". Than all member states have to do so, but they can handle it in their own way (one can say, we use images, the other can say that they use more space etc.).

Directives are a weird thing. Well, in any way: things like warranty are much better covered in Europe than in the US.

jayducharme
May 27, 2011, 12:36 PM
since AppleCare is not a warranty i don't see how they apply

Exactly. I get AppleCare for all my Apple products -- but not as an extended warranty. If a "defect in manufacturing" doesn't show up in the first 90 days, it probably will never show up while I own the product (since tech products now have a really short useful lifespan). What I buy AppleCare for is the unlimited tech support, which is generally excellent. I can take any of my Apple products to the Genius Bar or just call Apple and get any question resolved quickly. That to me is worth the cost.

I think if Apple sold AppleCare solely as extended tech support, they wouldn't have a problem with the European agencies.

Jodles
May 27, 2011, 12:54 PM
In Norway it is either 2 or 5 years, depending on the product and how long you should be able to expect that that product should last. Recently a court order made it clear that mobile phones are covered by the 5 year law (though everybody wants new phones all the time anyway, so I doubt manufacturers are struck too hard by this).

There is also a paragraph in the law that says that any problems to satisfy this law is a matter between store and supplier, not involving the consumer. I.e. if Apple refuses to supply goods to replace something, the shop has to. The consumer is unaffected.

To the point, Applecare is completely unnecessary here, but they still try to push it on costumers. When I asked bluntly when I bought my Macbook, if the *only* advantage with Applecare was that I didn't have to bring the receipt with me, he replied yes...

Rip off!

baryon
May 27, 2011, 01:08 PM
I agree. EU Law states that warranty on computers should last 2 or 3 years, not sure. So I refused to pay extra for Apple Care, as it is made redundant by free compulsory warranty. Then I go to the Apple store saying that my graphics card is dead, and they tell me I have to pay for it. WTF? Isn't this illegal?

boozezela
May 27, 2011, 01:14 PM
It’s actually quite easy: The mandatory 2 years are only for defects that were already present on the day of purchase, and the vendor is responsible if anything breaks that. Burden of proof is on the vendor during the first year, on the buyer in the second year.

The warranty (in Apple’s case one year) that the producer gives you covers all defects that occur after purchase. Same with Apple Care. Thus, the Italian complaint misses the point completely.

The manufacturer is responsible for the first year, while the vendor is responsible for the second.

When you buy the goods from Apple, Apple becomes also the vendor and should be responsible for defects in the product for the second year.

Problem is that they refuse to do so.

boozezela
May 27, 2011, 01:17 PM
Exactly. I get AppleCare for all my Apple products -- but not as an extended warranty. If a "defect in manufacturing" doesn't show up in the first 90 days, it probably will never show up while I own the product

I beg to differ:

- Nvidia based Macbook Pros failed during the second year on average.
-The plastics for the Macbooks (both top and bottom case) were failing well after 90 days
- Hinges for Macbook Airs failed after 90 days as well

ten-oak-druid
May 27, 2011, 01:23 PM
I want to get some lobbyists.

iStudentUK
May 27, 2011, 01:26 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-gb) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8F190 Safari/6533.18.5)

I agree. EU Law states that warranty on computers should last 2 or 3 years, not sure. So I refused to pay extra for Apple Care, as it is made redundant by free compulsory warranty. Then I go to the Apple store saying that my graphics card is dead, and they tell me I have to pay for it. WTF? Isn't this illegal?

The EU doesn't say there must be a warranty on computers. It says that everything should conform to what a customer should reasonably expect. The EU says the customer must be able to bring a claim for at least 2 years after purchase, that doesn't mean everything had to work for 2 years. If you buy a pen that breaks after 23 months you have the right to sue the seller, but no court is going to say that a pen that breaks after 23 months didn't confirm to reasonable expectations. See the difference?

Now, the EU sets the minimum standard, but member states can give consumers more rights if they like. For example in the UK you can try to claim for 6 years, that does not mean everything should last 6 years.

Apple can ask you to show the device is faulty, and not caused by misuse. If you can't convince Apple of that then you can take them to court. A judge then decides whether you have the right to a repair/refund/replacement given how long you have owned the device, how much it cost, what went wrong and why it went wrong.

Most countries have charities that advise consumers, so if you are really upset then talk to them. I've never had to go to court (often just mentioning it makes people cave) but some peope I know have. Just learn about your rights and see what you can do.

The manufacturer is responsible for the first year, while the vendor is responsible for the second.

According the the EU directive I have in front of me (1999/44/EC that lays out the rules on consumer contracts that had to be implemented by member states) the seller is liable from the start. Where did you get that information from? I don't know about Europe as a whole but in the UK you can't sue a manufacturer for faulty goods as you don't have a contract with them. You can only sue them if their product causes you injury etc.

bassanoclapper
May 27, 2011, 01:40 PM
I have 3 Applecare policies, soon to be 5 [1 expired]
Am watching this one quite closely

BC2009
May 27, 2011, 01:42 PM
First off -- stupid article to include both stories together.

Second, on the "tax story", this is probably no different than anybody who wants a tax break. I guarantee you that if you received a big inheritance from a relative who passed away in a foreign country you would be cursing that country for wanting to tax you for inheriting that money (or worse for taking the money out that country) and cursing the USA for wanting to tax you for brining the money in. My mom went through this once because Italy did not like large sums of money leaving the country, but she lived in the USA.

Apple and many other companies are lobbying congress to provide a tax holiday to re-patriot foreign funds. Right now these companies have lots of money that they made in foreign countries and they are keeping it there because they don't want to be taxed on it twice (once in the foreign country and once as it travels into the US). It makes sense to keep the money abroad especially if you have lots of bills to pay in those countries to suppliers and such (just choose the correct account to write that check from).

I'm guessing the profits have begun to exceed the bills and these accounts have grown to a substantial amount. The amount is so large that they are trying to convince congress of the benefits to bringing that money to the US (e.g.: more jobs for their constituency, another private airplane for a CEO, etc....). Right now, these companies have little incentive to bring this money into the USA since the cost of bringing it in is huge.

Sure there are plenty of loopholes in tax law so that rich folks can avoid paying taxes on the money they have earned; however, this more about avoiding being taxed on money you made elsewhere and I think it is something most anybody would want to do if they had a whole lot of money in a foreign account.

Protesting these companies (and obviously focusing on Apple to increase your publicity) is not going to fix US tax law. Those CEO's will still be able to dodge all the taxes they want to dodge. However, bringing that money to the USA could have some benefit to the US economy (and yes, I am not naive, somebody will also personally benefit from it as well).

Anyway, seems like a bigger deal is being made of this than it is.

benthewraith
May 27, 2011, 01:43 PM
No.
I pay my taxes, you pay yours. And why, pray tell, do you want to bring the money back in anyway? See, THAT'S the real question.

And while I'm at it, with almost 70BN in cash, would it KILL you to manufacture SOMETHING in America? All you want to do is duck taxes and pay slaves to make your crap. Typical corporate blood-sucking whores.

Why wouldn't you? Bringing money back in to the states from overseas helps us economically. Companies can hire more employees. We're at what, 9% U3 unemployment and 17% U6 unemployment? Companies use profits to innovate and expand. A few million to some fat cats is nothing compared to being able to bring in billions of dollars from overseas.

chris200x9
May 27, 2011, 01:54 PM
You mean like how AUTO manufacturing in detroit is flourishing?

Considering how GM just paid off it's federal loans way early and considering how ford is making record profits, I would say yes. I mean seriously, were you trying to lend credence to my point?

technowizard
May 27, 2011, 01:59 PM
That's like being excited that gas has gone down from $4.10 to $3.99 a gallon. It might be cheaper but it's still too expensive!

Here In the UK it is around 4x that price for petrol (or as you call it 'gas') and its a similar case around europe. You have no idea how cheap your fuel prices are!

MagnusVonMagnum
May 27, 2011, 02:06 PM
Why wouldn't you? Bringing money back in to the states from overseas helps us economically. Companies can hire more employees.

But they DON'T hire more employees. They move jobs OUT OF AMERICA not into it! They want to make all that money outside the country, but they don't want to pay their taxes here in the U.S. It's an insult to say they'll pay a tiny percentage of it if only they can bring that money into the U.S. Imagine if you or I told the IRS that we'll gladly pay 1% a year instead of 28%! They'd say get ready to go to prison.

LowKeyed
May 27, 2011, 03:26 PM
But they DON'T hire more employees. They move jobs OUT OF AMERICA not into it! They want to make all that money outside the country, but they don't want to pay their taxes here in the U.S. It's an insult to say they'll pay a tiny percentage of it if only they can bring that money into the U.S. Imagine if you or I told the IRS that we'll gladly pay 1% a year instead of 28%! They'd say get ready to go to prison.

If they didn't want to spend or invest that money here in the US why would they try to pressure congress to let them do it cheaply. I'm sure China would love for them to shift money into that economy as would most other countries, as long as that was where they intended to spend it or invest.

No doubt Apple spends large amounts of money on cheaper foreign labor, as a shareholder i'm glad they do. Also, as a customer i'm glad they do, if i can save a few bucks on a product then great.

If Apple had it's headquarters based in England would you have a problem with them trying to bring money made in Germany into the US without paying taxes on it again? Why should we make it more expensive for US based companies to do business here?

Apple can leave that money in foreign markets and it's not cheating the tax system because that is where the money was earned. They want to bring it back to the US and not have to punish shareholders by paying tax on it again. How does that make them bad guys.


Your example is all wrong. The reality is more like. My corporation has 500K in Scotland in an account maintained by a Scottish sub corp but we want to buy a retreat house in Florida. If we bring that money to the US we have to pay tax on it (again), if we leave it in Scotland (where our shareholders already paid tax on it once) we can't buy the house we want. So we leave it in Scotland and invest it. Maybe in a few years we buy a retreat home in Scotland and then instead of spending training dollars in florida at Disney World we spend them in the highlands. Buy those souvenirs and tip those waiters.

Long and short is that every dollar in the US economy helps the US economy, more money here doesn't hurt it.

BTW, i understand this is an incredibly simplistic description of the issue.

Sjhonny
May 27, 2011, 03:26 PM
In the US we have the 14, 60, or 90 day warranty policies. I really like Europes' 1 year policies :D. Plus a 2 year extended. Once the 3 years are over you get a new lappy. :)

As for taxes, if I can't do sketchy things to dodge em, neither should Apple.

Actually it's two years (legally). I don't know why, but for some reason apple get's away with giving just one year standard. In some country's (like the Netherlands), the company of which you bought the product has to prove you've misused it (drop, water damage, scratched), before they can decline you your warranty claim.

entropys
May 27, 2011, 03:32 PM
Speaking as an overseas person, this tax carry on is a bit bizarre. So a US company, in this case Apple, sold a whole heap of stuff (in this case macs, iPods and iPhones) Down Under, paid its OZ tax liabilities (such as GST and OZ corporate taxes) on the money it eaned here, and now has a nice bucket of money sitting in Australian banks, equities and securities. But if they take that money back to the USA, the US Government wants them to pay tax again?*

I think that these protesters are the kind that regards anything left after tax is grudgingly allowed after the comrades have taken according to their needs.

I guess from the protesters' perspective, it is a terrible thing they can't get at that most fungible of assets, Other Peoples' Money (there really should be an OPM index).

*Edit: as I think more about it, this is a great US policy. After all, as a foreigner, my country benefits because the US corporation is more likely to keep the money here for further investment and development of my country. Stupid Yanks.

joeshell383
May 27, 2011, 04:51 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; es-es) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

You know, I love Apple. I'm a shareholder and I want them to become as rich as possible.

And yet...yeah. US Uncut is absolutely right. We should all be complaining about such things.

But I kind of think protesting the companies is stupid. They'll always try to get the best deal they can. They should, that's just smart. It's the government that sets the rules, we should be complaining to them if the rules aren't strong enough.

This is like standing by the side of the road with a 'slow down' sign instead of trying to actually change the speed limit.

No. Protesting Apple is a great way to generate public awareness of the initiative. Apple is particularly vulnerable to this protest because of its retail stores. Apple ought to drop out next week and let the companies that already have unfavorable reputations with consumers (B of A for the bailout and GE for its other tax avoidance initiatives) carry this one. If it is enacted, Apple will be able to take advantage of it anyway.

Better to drop off now than to have the media cover this in conjunction with or instead of WWDC product announcements.

MagnusVonMagnum
May 27, 2011, 04:51 PM
Your example is all wrong. The reality is more like. My corporation has 500K in Scotland in an account maintained by a Scottish sub corp but we want to buy a retreat house in Florida. If we bring that money to the US we have to pay tax on it (again), if we leave it in Scotland (where our shareholders already paid tax on it once) we can't buy the house we want. So we leave it in Scotland and invest it. Maybe in a few years we buy a retreat home in Scotland and then instead of spending training dollars in florida at Disney World we spend them in the highlands. Buy those souvenirs and tip those waiters.

Long and short is that every dollar in the US economy helps the US economy, more money here doesn't hurt it.

BTW, i understand this is an incredibly simplistic description of the issue.

If I make money in Scotland and want to bring it back to where I actually LIVE (i.e. the U.S.), your darn right I have to pay taxes on it. I'm enjoying the protection of the greatest military on earth and the rights of the Constitution. Running a government isn't free (as witnessed by our ever increasing deficit as more jobs go out of the country and corporations try to avoid paying any taxes here). If companies like Apple want to make money in China, but don't want to any taxes here, they can go LIVE in China and then they won't have to worry about bringing the money back to the U.S. Good riddance to tax evaders and outsourcers too.

What we NEED BADLY in the U.S. is a TARIFF on any U.S. company's goods (not foreign companies, but U.S. companies or divisions of U.S. companies) that are made outside the the country and then shipped back to the U.S. Income is income and if I live here, I pay income taxes here. That would remove the incentive to take jobs out of the country in the first place but wouldn't cheese off the foreign countries involved directly since their own goods are not affected. It's time to take this country back from greed.

Gasu E.
May 27, 2011, 05:05 PM
If I pay taxes and can't avoid them, so should Apple. They are not special to deserve tax cuts.

Are you a corporation? If you are, you are subject to corporate tax laws, same as Apple.

Gasu E.
May 27, 2011, 05:12 PM
What we NEED BADLY in the U.S. is a TARIFF on any U.S. company's goods (not foreign companies, but U.S. companies or divisions of U.S. companies) that are made outside the the country and then shipped back to the U.S. Income is income and if I live here, I pay income taxes here. That would remove the incentive to take jobs out of the country in the first place but wouldn't cheese off the foreign countries involved directly since their own goods are not affected. It's time to take this country back from greed.

Apple and every other company, US-based or not, pays US taxes on profits of products sold here. So I'm not sure your tariff idea does anything but raise prices for you and me.

What Apple is NOT paying US taxes on now are profits made on sales outside the US. Because they are a US-based company, they would like to repatriate the profits from overseas sales, but the tax rate on these repatriated funds is 35%. That'a much higher than the marginal corporate tax rate of almost any other country. Which is why Apple keeps the profits overseas.

Gasu E.
May 27, 2011, 05:14 PM
But they DON'T hire more employees. They move jobs OUT OF AMERICA not into it! They want to make all that money outside the country, but they don't want to pay their taxes here in the U.S. It's an insult to say they'll pay a tiny percentage of it if only they can bring that money into the U.S. Imagine if you or I told the IRS that we'll gladly pay 1% a year instead of 28%! They'd say get ready to go to prison.

Actually, if you or I (US citizens) move to a foreign country to work for a while we get to exempt something like $80K per year, plus some expenses, from US tax.

throttlemeister
May 27, 2011, 05:56 PM
For all those bitchin' about Apple and others taking jobs out of the country, let me explain something to you: it is not Apple's fault, it is not the governments fault, it is YOUR fault! If you want American jobs to stay in America, then buy American. Even if it is more expensive.

But noooo, the average consumer wants to buy buy buy and if they can get it 2 cents cheaper elsewhere, they buy it elsewhere. And then after companies off-shored parts of the company to reduce cost and be able to compete with cheaper foreign products, the consumer starts whining that they are taking American jobs out of the country.

Payback's a bitch ain't it?

Stop looking at price as the sole differentiator for your mindless consumption behavior. Stop buying for the buying and collecting of stuff. Instead, make a conscious decision on why you need to buy a certain product and why you want to chose for product A instead of B. Sure, you'll be buying less stuff, but you'll be able to get better quality products from local manufacturers while probably saving money because you're not buying loads of crap you don't really need.

boozezela
May 27, 2011, 06:52 PM
For all those bitchin' about Apple and others taking jobs out of the country, let me explain something to you: it is not Apple's fault, it is not the governments fault, it is YOUR fault! If you want American jobs to stay in America, then buy American. Even if it is more expensive.

But noooo, the average consumer wants to buy buy buy and if they can get it 2 cents cheaper elsewhere, they buy it elsewhere. And then after companies off-shored parts of the company to reduce cost and be able to compete with cheaper foreign products, the consumer starts whining that they are taking American jobs out of the country.

Payback's a bitch ain't it?

Stop looking at price as the sole differentiator for your mindless consumption behavior. Stop buying for the buying and collecting of stuff. Instead, make a conscious decision on why you need to buy a certain product and why you want to chose for product A instead of B. Sure, you'll be buying less stuff, but you'll be able to get better quality products from local manufacturers while probably saving money because you're not buying loads of crap you don't really need.

Do you actually realise that a $2700 iMac for which there is no cheaper alternative is entirely made in China?

I cannot buy a more expensive one made in the US either, because there isn't any.

biallystock
May 27, 2011, 07:09 PM
You know, I love Apple. I'm a shareholder and I want them to become as rich as possible.

And yet...yeah. US Uncut is absolutely right. We should all be complaining about such things.

But I kind of think protesting the companies is stupid. They'll always try to get the best deal they can. They should, that's just smart. It's the government that sets the rules, we should be complaining to them if the rules aren't strong enough.

This is like standing by the side of the road with a 'slow down' sign instead of trying to actually change the speed limit.

You ignore the fact that, not just in the USA but in many countries, corporations subvert the democratic processes to get what they want.

In the USA it is particularly bad, to the point you may as well have what the British have, which is an unelected Upper House selected from corporations, to review and veto legislation they don't like.

Americans may not be aware of their own behavior, which is so ingrained as to seem normal to them, which is to subjugate their own interests to those of the corporations.

This has been inculcated into the American voters' thinking by constant immersion in commercial propaganda, and a media which is owned and controlled by the commercial interests which benefit from the voters' submissiveness.

I can think of only one country, outside of the communist countries, with a more alienated and tame media and that is Italy where Berlusconi distracts the public from what is really going on with game shows and strippers.

E.Lizardo
May 27, 2011, 07:14 PM
I guess some idiots are incapable of understanding that BUSINESSES DON'T PAY TAXES.

Consumers do.Taxes are part of the cost of the product,just as labor,development,advertising and materials.

Business taxes are just another way to tax you that seems invisible.

You are paying it just the same.

Sheesh!

Gamoe
May 27, 2011, 07:33 PM
I doubt Apple is exclusively guilty of (legally) tax-dodging, as all these corporations do this. That said, I have no problem with Apple & other companies actually having to contribute to the public welfare as we all do. And no, this does not mean that they're off the hook because they make great devices and software, because no individual gets off the hook no matter all the long hours, effort and quality they put into their jobs.

As far as Applecare: I've always found it to be a rip-off. I mean, Apple advertises its products as the cream of the crop (with which I generally agree), but then makes you pay through the nose to cover non-accidental issues, essentially manufacturing defects?- After you've paid through the nose for the device itself already? Why are we paying twice. Yeah, that Dell is crap but I can buy two or three of them for the price of a Mac + Applecare.

If you claim quality, back up your product with the warranty. Good for the EU for raising the bar and making companies deliver. I don't always agree on what they do, but this makes sense, from a consumer protection point of view, an economic point of view and even an environmental point of view.

biallystock
May 27, 2011, 08:08 PM
I guess some idiots are incapable of understanding that BUSINESSES DON'T PAY TAXES.

Consumers do.Taxes are part of the cost of the product,just as labor,development,advertising and materials.

Business taxes are just another way to tax you that seems invisible.

You are paying it just the same.

Sheesh!

I always find it interesting just who throws the idiot tag around.

If a business doesn't pay tax, it just adds to the profit. The nonsensical suggestion here is that corporations (artificial entities owned by groups of people) should not pay taxes and somehow would pass all the benefits on.

Ofcourse there wouldn't be an individual left who wouldn't incorporate and join in the the fun = nobody pays tax.

The crazy notion of not really paying the tax could be equally put as the individual doesn't pay tax, it is their employer or business. We could go on and on, but it doesn't take much intelligence to see where this all leads.

What is so sad is that this argument seems to be the outcome of both a failed education system reinforced by an appallingly bad media, pandering to and supplied by people of equally bad education. It surely isn't possible that something in a nation's water supply has lead to a collective diminishing of the nation's IQ over the last decades, surely?

X38
May 27, 2011, 08:18 PM
That's got to be one of the stupidest reasons for protesting that I've ever heard of. If American companies are keeping money over seas to avoid taxes, then the answer is mind numbingly simple - reduce the taxes to the point it is not advantageous to keep the profits out of the country. As in most problems with the world today, the answer begins with reigning in government.
Quite obviously stupid taxation policies like this are one of the primary culprits for the decline in American manufacturing. No wonder America is now known as a country unfriendly to business.
Uncut nothing but short-sighted, simple-minded retards.

X38
May 27, 2011, 08:21 PM
If Apple unrightfully avoided their taxes, I don't find it too bad that they are put in the same bag as those who didn't. Just pay the amount you owe.

And I love European laws.

Then move to Europe.

caspersoong
May 27, 2011, 08:36 PM
I didn't expect this. IMO, Apple will still slip out as it always does.

bearcatrp
May 27, 2011, 08:43 PM
Time to quit this free trade BS and bring back tariffs. Sure, everyone likes paying less for whatever you buy. But as long as unemployment is high, the middle and lower class who pay most of the taxes, will have higher taxes to pay the welfare bill. ALL taxes are to high. But until the code is fixed, pay your fair share according to the law. Don't like it, quit electing idiots who screw it up more.

madmax_2069
May 27, 2011, 11:27 PM
It's enough that dey took'er jobs!

OMG NOOOOOO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIzivCJ9pzU&feature=related

MagnusVonMagnum
May 28, 2011, 12:08 AM
Apple and every other company, US-based or not, pays US taxes on profits of products sold here. So I'm not sure your tariff idea does anything but raise prices for you and me.

That's the idea. Raise the prices on goods made by US companies in a foreign country that are being sold back to the US. The whole point is to raise those goods to a price that is comparative to what it would cost to make in the US (or more) so that companies stop shipping our jobs overseas in the first place (or punish them if they do).

That is the only reasonable way I can see to stop outsourcing which is KILLING this country. We wouldn't be in the mess we are today if those jobs hadn't left in the first place. And if you have a good job, you can afford to pay a bit more for goods. It's better than having slightly cheaper goods and a minimum wage job at McDonalds. And if you think that these companies are passing those savings from outsourcing on to the consumer when they don't have to, you're kidding yourself. Apple's computers didn't suddenly drop in price when they moved assembly from the US to China. They kept the profits. They have no direct competitors so it was easy for them to do. Most Apple users never even noticed they were moved.


What Apple is NOT paying US taxes on now are profits made on sales outside the US. Because they are a US-based company, they would like to repatriate the profits from overseas sales, but the tax rate on these repatriated funds is 35%. That'a much higher than the marginal corporate tax rate of almost any other country. Which is why Apple keeps the profits overseas.

Like I said, if they want the money in the US, they can pay their flipping taxes. Otherwise, I think they should move to China or wherever they're making their money. Obviously, they want to bring that money back here for a reason and it sure as heck isn't to help you or me.

Actually, if you or I (US citizens) move to a foreign country to work for a while we get to exempt something like $80K per year, plus some expenses, from US tax.

That's moving. I'm talking about corporate big whigs staying here and letting cheap labor do the work overseas. They want their profits back here so they can cash in on them (they cannot pay people here with money made over there without paying that tax so they have to use other funds). I say let those people move to China if they want to cash in. If you enjoy US protection, you pay US taxes. PERIOD. Clearly, based on respones here I'm not the only on that feels that way. The less taxes corporations pay, the more you and I have to pay to make up for it. So either way we pay. At least keeping the jobs here would mean US workers have jobs and their income tax would also go to supporting this country (instead of Communist China).

Frankly, I think we should make all trade with China illegal the same way it's illegal to trade with Cuba (embargo). That would put a dent in the Chinese trade surplus and force companies to make goods here or at least in a non-Communist country.

For all those bitchin' about Apple and others taking jobs out of the country, let me explain something to you: it is not Apple's fault, it is not the governments fault, it is YOUR fault! If you want American jobs to stay in America, then buy American. Even if it is more expensive.

That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read. What American goods??? I couldn't buy American if I tried in most cases because it's GONE. I don't shop Walmart if I can help it. I shop at Union groceries and I'm paying 2x as much to get the USA made New Balance shoes (which are superior quality anyway if you look at the shoe features). Frak Communist China. We need FAIR trade, not FREE trade. That massive trade imbalance is destroying this country.

That's got to be one of the stupidest reasons for protesting that I've ever heard of. If American companies are keeping money over seas to avoid taxes, then the answer is mind numbingly simple - reduce the taxes to the point it is not advantageous to keep the profits out of the country.

Stupid??? ROTFLMAO. I got news for you, if you drop their taxes to move money back here you only give them more incentive to move jobs overseas!!! Or do you seriously believe that tax has something to do with outsourcing? It does not. Cheap labor is the reason we have outsourcing. GE didn't pay a DIME in taxes last year. That hasn't stopped them from moving jobs overseas. :rolleyes:

The only thing lowering that tax will do is encourage them to make more money overseas and roll it bak here at little to no cost. Thus they'd enjoy the benefits of US protection, but pay none of the costs. We don't need their profits here. We need JOBS here. That wouldn't change a bit.


Quite obviously stupid taxation policies like this are one of the primary culprits for the decline in American manufacturing. No wonder America is now known as a country unfriendly to business.
Uncut nothing but short-sighted, simple-minded retards.

That's a total crock of BS. You could reduce corporate taxes to zero here and it wouldn't stop jobs from being outsourced due to cheap labor rates (see GE example above; they paid ZERO taxes here last year; they've outsourced tons of jobs to India). Your arguments have zero merit and yet you talk about others' arguments being stupid. :rolleyes:

I guess some idiots are incapable of understanding that BUSINESSES DON'T PAY TAXES.

Consumers do.Taxes are part of the cost of the product,just as labor,development,advertising and materials.

Business taxes are just another way to tax you that seems invisible.

You are paying it just the same.

Sheesh!

Yes, you are paying it just the same. But there's one big difference with a tariff. The jobs would stay here since there would be no incentive to move jobs overseas if local goods had the final price advantage. Thus, even though goods would be higher, we'd have more US jobs. As it is now, we pay less for goods, but we end up paying the difference either in taxes or debt. There is no free lunch outsourcing so we might as well do what's right and have incentives to keep the jobs here and I don't mean getting rid of minimum wage.

MattInOz
May 28, 2011, 01:01 AM
Like I said, if they want the money in the US, they can pay their flipping taxes. Otherwise, I think they should move to China or wherever they're making their money. Obviously, they want to bring that money back here for a reason and it sure as heck isn't to help you or me.


I'm sure what your suggesting would guarantee Apple moves more tech,design and admin overseas and stops being an American company.
Here in Sydney we offer a very similar climate and culture to San Fran. We would welcome Apple with open arms. Even if they just move the Maps team here and pouch Google staff from the Earth team here in Sydney.

Hey if Apple did bring back that cash at 35% do you think the government will do anything worthwhile with their cut or is it better that is goes to employing more people at Apple HQ, or payrises for all, or building the new Apple campus or another data centre or any number of other things Apple could spent the money on all of which will make jobs and increase income tax revenue so that the government still gets it's cut?
Which is more likely to have a direct benefit to you?

Lennholm
May 28, 2011, 06:07 AM
I beg to differ:

- Nvidia based Macbook Pros failed during the second year on average.
-The plastics for the Macbooks (both top and bottom case) were failing well after 90 days
- Hinges for Macbook Airs failed after 90 days as well

All your examples have been publically admitted by Apple to be manufacturing defects and they provide exceptions and extended service for those issues, the nVidia issue is even covered for 4 years if I remember correctly.

The standard 1 year warranty that Apple provides is completely volountary and can't even be compared to the 2-3 years consumer rights.
After the first 6 months it's up the consumer to prove that it is a manufacturing defect and nothing else, which is almost impossible to do.

I've worked at both HP technical support and AppleCare and it's quite a difference when it comes to handling consumer law claims. The procedure at HP was simply "We don't want to argue about it, just fill in this form and proceed as any in-warranty repair". Apple though,.. the law states that the consumer has to prove the manufacturing defect and Apple will settle for nothing less.
I once called Acer support regarding my mothers out-of-warranty laptop who's hard drive had failed. When the support technician confirmed that it was out-of-warranty I said "So that's that then?", and he responded "Well, ofcourse, you could claim this as a consumer law case"... So I did and my mother got the failed hard drive replaced for free!
A consumer law claim on an oow hard drive, that's almost to generous.

iStudentUK
May 28, 2011, 06:32 AM
After the first 6 months it's up the consumer to prove that it is a manufacturing defect and nothing else, which is almost impossible to do.

It's not quite that hard. Remember, the standard of proof in most countries for civil cases is on balance of probabilities- so 51% will do. It is not prove in the criminal sense.

A few people I know have gone as far as small claims court and won. The easiest thing to do is google and show some other people are having the same problem (it doesn't have to be a major issue, say like the old plastic MBs cracking which Apple admitted was a big problem, just a few other examples). Show you have looked after it well (eg a case etc), and try to find what has actually caused the problem.

Although judges should be impartial the ones who deal with small consumer cases are not the big scary mega-rich ones, they are just like ordinary people who have probably had similar problems with products themselves. In reality, they often show leniency towards the consumer because they sympathise.

The other big thing is that it is often too much hassle for a big company to actual turn up on the day, so you pretty much win by default!

palmerc
May 28, 2011, 07:13 AM
The consumer protection law in Norway is well understood by most. 5 years. However, business purchases aren't covered by this law so there is still a place for AppleCare.

palmerc
May 28, 2011, 07:16 AM
I doubt Apple is exclusively guilty of (legally) tax-dodging, as all these corporations do this. That said, I have no problem with Apple & other companies actually having to contribute to the public welfare as we all do. And no, this does not mean that they're off the hook because they make great devices and software, because no individual gets off the hook no matter all the long hours, effort and quality they put into their jobs.

As far as Applecare: I've always found it to be a rip-off. I mean, Apple advertises its products as the cream of the crop (with which I generally agree), but then makes you pay through the nose to cover non-accidental issues, essentially manufacturing defects?- After you've paid through the nose for the device itself already? Why are we paying twice. Yeah, that Dell is crap but I can buy two or three of them for the price of a Mac + Applecare.

If you claim quality, back up your product with the warranty. Good for the EU for raising the bar and making companies deliver. I don't always agree on what they do, but this makes sense, from a consumer protection point of view, an economic point of view and even an environmental point of view.

In general, I have found AppleCare protection through Apple's official stores to be not just good, but amazing. Next day service, super friendly, and flexible. Unfortunately the quality and speed of service doesn't seem to translate through to so-called authorized repair centers. Week long repairs, also sorts of can't do, won't do. Just generally frustrating. I want Apple to open a store in Oslo and put these obnoxious places like Humac and Eplehuset out of business.

Henri Gaudier
May 28, 2011, 07:45 AM
[QUOTE=TheralSadurns;12640001]Wow... the Italians are dicks and know nothing about the law.

Having been to Italy many a time I can vouch that the above is indeed correct.;)

Straight from the horses mouth .. well .. PDF. I got this from the EU site.

Product guarantees
The fact is that a two-year guarantee applies for the sale of all consumer goods everywhere in the EU (Directive 1999/44/EC). In some countries, this may be more, and some manufacturers also choose to offer a longer warranty period.

Le fait est qu’une garantie de deux ans s’applique à la vente de tous les biens de consommation partout dans l’UE (directive 1999/44/CE). Dans certains pays, ce peut même être davantage, et certains fabricants choisissent également d’offrir une plus longue période de garantie.

As for the price of goods, if they were made in the US, would go up. I'm a bit of an Anglophile and love Joe Meek electronics. When their TwinQ (Pre-Amp, EQ & Compressor) was hand made in England it was £500 now it's made in China for about £780! No jobs and a dearer price. Destroy the WTO!:mad:

iStudentUK
May 28, 2011, 08:04 AM
The fact is that a two-year guarantee applies for the sale of all consumer goods everywhere in the EU (Directive 1999/44/EC). In some countries, this may be more, and some manufacturers also choose to offer a longer warranty period.

I have read that PDF as well. Unfortunately whoever wrote it at the EU doesn't really understand that directive. If you look at the actual directive here (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:1999:171:0012:0016:EN:PDF) it says in Article 4-

1. The seller shall be held liable under Article 3 where the lack of conformity becomes apparent within two years as from delivery of the goods...

(It goes on to say the 2 years is a just a minimum. In the UK for example we have a limit of 6 years).

That may seem like it is imposing a 2 year guarantee at first glance, but it actually is slightly different. The key is the word "conformity", just because something stops working that does not mean it didn't conform to the contract. All consumer goods are covered by this act, but it would be crazy if I could sue a seller 2 years later because my pen stops working!

The directive states what conformity should mean, and it includes "quality and performance which are normal in goods of the same type". So if my MacBook stops working after 18 months I need to show that it didn't show "normal quality" then I can get a remedy. I expect I may be able to show that. However, going back to the example above, if my pen stops working after 18 months I would say it had still shown "normal quality" so it did conform to the contract so I have no right of remedy.


The lesson here is always go to the actual legislation for information!

boozezela
May 28, 2011, 08:08 AM
According the the EU directive I have in front of me (1999/44/EC that lays out the rules on consumer contracts that had to be implemented by member states) the seller is liable from the start. Where did you get that information from? I don't know about Europe as a whole but in the UK you can't sue a manufacturer for faulty goods as you don't have a contract with them. You can only sue them if their product causes you injury etc.

In Italy when the good fails during the 1st year you can either contact the seller or the manufacturer.

Depending on the policies in place, the seller could just give you a new item, or simply contact the manufacturer on your behalf.

In the second scenario it would be advisable to contact the manufacturer yourself to save some time.

During the second year, for manufacturing defects (like a chip that is known to fail after 13 months for instance) the seller is responsible. If the manufacturer does not acknowledge the defect, the loss will be on the seller.

In this specific case, where Apple is the manufacturer and the seller, when the product develops a problem during the second year, Apple will simply quote you for a repair and, if the defect is severe and later gets recognised as manufacturing defect, will refund you.

A third party reseller would simply (after some struggle) take the product back.

In the UK clearly your statutory rights are different.

boozezela
May 28, 2011, 08:11 AM
All your examples have been publically admitted by Apple to be manufacturing defects and they provide exceptions and extended service for those issues, the nVidia issue is even covered for 4 years if I remember correctly.

The original poster stated:

"If a 'defect in manufacturing' doesn't show up in the first 90 days, it probably will never show up while I own the product"

I was simply arguing that, unless you bought a bike, a defect in a computer is likely not going to show up during the first 90 days of purchase.

Il Supremo
May 28, 2011, 10:17 AM
Wow... the Italians are dicks and know nothing about the law.

There are NO required WARRANTIES in Europe.
What IS required is a two year defects liability. But what does that mean?

You're wrong. Italian Executive Order # 206/2005 states the following:
"The seller is responsible for every defect of a sold product. [...] The seller is responsable for every defect discovered by the consumer in a 24 months time-lapse [...] and MUST provide a cost-free reparation and/or a product replacement to eliminate the defect of the product. [...] If no remedy is possible to restore the full functionality of a faulty product, the consumer has the right to ask for a refund of the bought product".

JAT
May 28, 2011, 11:04 AM
Again, companies don't PAY taxes, they COLLECT taxes. Only consumers PAY taxes.

Talk about a whoosh. The point is that only people pay taxes. Corporations just collect the taxes from the consumers who buy the products through higher prices (and lower wages to employees) to pay those taxes.

I guess some idiots are incapable of understanding that BUSINESSES DON'T PAY TAXES.

Consumers do.Taxes are part of the cost of the product,just as labor,development,advertising and materials.

You're all correct, I'm quite put in my place. I was an idiot to think I knew anything about finance.

Although, I don't suppose any of you know what "labor" is? Or the significance to this topic?

moderately
May 28, 2011, 11:18 AM
Talk about a whoosh. The point is that only people pay taxes. Corporations just collect the taxes from the consumers who buy the products through higher prices (and lower wages to employees) to pay those taxes.

Imagine a one person company, me. Say I make $10,000 per year. A friend wants to join me and she was making $10,000 per year doing consulting like me. Together we made $20,000. Say we paid 20% per year in taxes individually so we each paid $2000 in taxes and retained $8,000.

Now we form a corporation, we still bring in $20,000/year. Now we pay a 40% corporate tax rate. So, we pay $8000/year in corporate taxes, leaving $6000/year for each of the two of us ($12000 total), plus we pay 20% income taxes on the $6000 each. We can't live on that, so what do we do?



If corporations being asked to pay taxes on profits then your argument is simply apologist twaddle. In your example you and your friend's income would show up as a corporate expense and not be taxable. If you and your friend wanted to buy an office building that would be an expense and not be taxable. If you and your friend wanted to leave the money with the corporation and not take it as income to yourselves or employing others then that would be a taxable profit for the corporation. Only taxed once.

Rubytone
May 28, 2011, 01:33 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Mobile/8F190)

[/URL][URL="http://cdn.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif"]Image (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/27/apple-hit-with-tax-lobbying-protest-italian-investigation-into-applecare-offerings/)
.....an effort that has seen Apple banding together (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/02/16/apple-lobbying-for-international-tax-amnesty-to-bring-home-profits/) with other major companies to lobby for one-time tax breaks on profits currently being held overseas.

No.
I pay my taxes, you pay yours. And why, pray tell, do you want to bring the money back in anyway? See, THAT'S the real question.

And while I'm at it, with almost 70BN in cash, would it KILL you to manufacture SOMETHING in America? All you want to do is duck taxes and pay slaves to make your crap. Typical corporate blood-sucking whores.

You seem angry.

Rubytone
May 28, 2011, 01:40 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Mobile/8F190)

Typical corporate blood-sucking whores.

You seem to think that Apple should be operated for YOUR personal benefit. That they should be made, under threat of jail terms, to pay more money into the government to fund programs that you support.

Why not cut government spending? Why not kick in more money yourself, if you want to fund these programs?

If you want to know why businesses locate themselves overseas, it is because the more you see them as your property to exploit for your benefit, the more incentive they have to relocate to a jurisdiction that is happy to have them.

That's economics.

These kinds of anti-business policies just result in even MORE lost jobs as companies relocate.... and you can't blame them.

It's not as if the federal government is being responsible with its spending, or has been in the past 40 years.

Well said.

inkswamp
May 28, 2011, 05:06 PM
You know, I love Apple. I'm a shareholder and I want them to become as rich as possible.

And yet...yeah. US Uncut is absolutely right. We should all be complaining about such things.

But I kind of think protesting the companies is stupid. They'll always try to get the best deal they can. They should, that's just smart. It's the government that sets the rules, we should be complaining to them if the rules aren't strong enough.

This is like standing by the side of the road with a 'slow down' sign instead of trying to actually change the speed limit.

Does it really need to be explained? We have a form of government in which we do not have a direct voice but rather elect representatives who speak for us. If people don't know about a given problem (like companies avoiding taxes) then few, if any, will be asking their representatives to do something about it. If nobody's asking, then the rep will feel no incentive to do so. Getting the word out does exactly that. These sorts of demonstrations and information campaigns are very grassroots of our political system in action.

biallystock
May 28, 2011, 08:23 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Mobile/8F190)



Well said.

That echo you think is total agreement is from the bottom of the hole you have dug yourself into. Yet again.

Still not getting how it is that every Republican administration runs up massive deficits, that the following Democrat admins have to fix.

MagnusVonMagnum
May 28, 2011, 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by econgeek
You seem to think that Apple should be operated for YOUR personal benefit. That they should be made, under threat of jail terms, to pay more money into the government to fund programs that you support.


I think American companies should be operated for the good of America. If not, then they should move out and make room for companies that do want to operate for the good of this nation. It makes me sick to watch American companies sleep with a Communist nation like China. We have an embargo against piddly Cuba, yet we sleep with nuclear armed China that screws us over with the trade deficit every year. How is that good for America? It's not. It's good for a couple of upper-ups in some corporations that moved over there to get virtual slave labor and some of their stock holders, perhaps. It's not good for workers here and it's not good for the country. Those laws are not good for this country. We need FAIR trade, not free trade. The laws of this country are supposed to be for this nation and the people of this nation so you tell me why the laws are organized to support the top 5% instead of the other 95%. :mad:

It's simple. Money talks. Corporations can lobby with unlimited funds now. It'll get worse. The people of this country aren't be represented and the interests of the COUNTRY sure as Hell aren't being represented! :mad:


Why not cut government spending? Why not kick in more money yourself, if you want to fund these programs?


Why not everyone get a job at Walmart or McDonalds? Why not get rid of minimum wage? Why not get rid of Medicare? Why not get rid of social security? Why not get rid of worthless poor people that can't work 16 hours a day for pennies? Why not get rid of child labor laws and Osha? Why not get rid of all undesirables in general? :rolleyes:


If you want to know why businesses locate themselves overseas, it is because the more you see them as your property to exploit for your benefit, the more incentive they have to relocate to a jurisdiction that is happy to have them.

That's economics.


My property??? MY property? They move to flipping China so they don't have to even pay MINIMUM WAGE for god's sake! Have you ever tried to live off minimum wage? Have you? Frak your so-called economics. Put the word GREED in there and you have it right. :mad:

Ethics and morality is dead in some humans. They're not humans at all, IMO. They're monsters. The definition of evil is putting oneself ahead of everyone else in the world without limits. It starts small and keeps on going until you can't see where you started from. During the great depression, all kinds of unspeakable crap went on. Oh, you don't like working on this bridge with no safety protocols what-so-ever for a dime a day? Go die somewhere. The guy behind you will do it. He'll probably die in an accident. Oh well, there's another guy behind him ready to take his place since they're starving. Yeah, that's how it is. Supply and demand. I supply crap and you eat it and like it. Frak that crap. That's what unions were invented to stop.

The way I see it, if you don't want to do business in this country with fair labor and safe working standards, MOVE THE FRAK OUT! Take your business to Communist China and live there yourself. You don't deserve to live in the greatest country on Earth. This country used to stand for something. We used to have an American Dream. Now it's a flipping nightmare of banks yanking fortunes out from under people and people doing giant pyramid schemes to steal retirement funds. We're a nation of thieves and scan artists and greedy CEOs that can't even bring themselves to pay $6 an hour for hard labor and now the Republicans want to take Medicare and Social Security away so they can have ANOTHER tax break! Billionaires can't afford to pay any taxes.... :rolleyes:

Yeah, let 'em work until they drop.... :mad:

gctwnl
May 29, 2011, 05:14 AM
Wow... the Italians are dicks and know nothing about the law.

There are NO required WARRANTIES in Europe.
What IS required is a two year defects liability. But what does that mean?

For normal consumers this means:
In the first 90 days after purchasing a computer you will get a replacement for ANY defect, as it is assumed that whatever you bought was defective WHEN you bought it. In this case APPLE would have to prove otherwise (i.e. you dropped the Book on the floor etc....)

AFTER these 90 days, YOU have to prove that the defect was already present THE MOMENT you BOUGHT the device. For this you need an expert to certify this, which of course is really never possible.
'Hey... my display doesn't work... and um... it never really did!' <-- yeah SURE.
The only thing to get thru with it (except for very rare singular instances) is if a defect reaches class-action status. Which would sort of prove that the defect was already present when bought.

What does THAT then mean?
The European law to REQUIRE a 2 year defects liability is (at least in the electronics sector) 99.999999% worthless.

So really... what is the deal here ?!
This law will differ per country. European legislation often only forces there to be some sort of law with certain minimum standards. And there are also a lot of different laws. One may be warranty, but other may govern consumer protection.

In The Netherlands there is consumer protection. You are protected during a normal lifetime for a certain product. I.e. if you buy a Plasma TV and it gives out after 3 years while a realistic lifetime expectancy might be 10 years you are still under a type of legal protection and you are entitled to get an (almost) free repair.

This protection governs the deal between the one that sold you the equipment and you. The manufacturer has nothing to do with it. This, by the way, is why stores often try to sell you 'extended warranty', something you legally do not need. And when you approach them with a defect after the manufacturer warranty has run out they often try to pass you on to the manufacturer who has expensive procedures in place.

As a consumer you have also obligations under the consumer protection. For one, you need to tell the seller within two months of the appearance of a defect. They are obliged to offer you a repair. If this repair extends the lifetime of the product beyond the original lifetime they might charge you for that lifetime extension. E.g. if a repair on your plasma TV after 5 years extends the lifetime from the original 10 to 12, they may charge you 20% of the repair cost. Also if they can prove (they have to prove this, not you) you have not properly operated the equipment and that has led to the damage, they are not obliged to offer free repairs.

If they cannot repair the equipment, they might offer you an alternative but you are not obliged to take this. You are then free to end the purchase agreement and get a partial refund. This refund is calculated on the basis of how much a comparable product costs today and then the time is taken how log you have been using it. So, if a Plasma TV breaks after 5 years and the legal lifetime is 10 and is cost originally $1200 and costs $500 now, you will get a refund of 50% of $500 if you return the TV. This must be paid in real money (not vouchers, etc.) as you are ending the original agreement where equipment changed hands in return for money.

Normal wear is excluded from this. Often situations get complex (e.g. with laundry washing machines). Miele for instance charges you for repairs for its machines but it limits the charge you have to pay during the entire lifetime of a washing machine. This also circumvents the seller's obligations.

Having said this: buying AppleCare for a desktop is probably senseless in The Netherlands as you are protected by consumer protection. It will however be a difficult fight to get your right as stores (including, I expect, the online Apple Store) never cooperate.

For a laptop, it depends on your use. If you are very careful and you know you have a legal fight on your hand to get your right if something goes wrong, you could forego AppleCare.

JoeG4
May 29, 2011, 11:45 AM
Do you actually realise that a $2700 iMac for which there is no cheaper alternative is entirely made in China?

I cannot buy a more expensive one made in the US either, because there isn't any.

The Mac Pros are (usually) made in the US, I think it's because they tend to be ordered CTO and in such small quantities the Chinese/Taiwanese parts are kept at Elk Grove or something and assembled there.

Still, if that's what you want, you can buy one :) Come to think of it every Mac tower I've owned has an "assembled in USA" tag on it :)


Why not everyone get a job at Walmart or McDonalds? Why not get rid of minimum wage? Why not get rid of Medicare? Why not get rid of social security? Why not get rid of worthless poor people that can't work 16 hours a day for pennies? Why not get rid of child labor laws and Osha? Why not get rid of all undesirables in general? :rolleyes:


I see lots of people screaming in the politics board here these things everyday lol. Generally poor->barely middle class people. They just feel superior because they have a few shinier things than the average person does, but make no mistake they're still poor/middle class.

When you're rolling in hundreds of millions a year and consider other peoples' livelihoods expendable, you might be a millionaire - and I doubt anyone like that participates in this forum.

MagnusVonMagnum
May 29, 2011, 03:48 PM
I see lots of people screaming in the politics board here these things everyday lol. Generally poor->barely middle class people. They just feel superior because they have a few shinier things than the average person does, but make no mistake they're still poor/middle class.

WTF does that go to do with anything? You think if you're a millionaire you're superior to everyone else? That is beyond arrogant. I can't say what that is because I'd get myself banned. A human's life should not be valued on the amount of cash in their pocket or bank account. In the end, those are just numbers and paper. You can't take it with you and at least some of us believe you will be held accountable for your actions in this world and I wouldn't want to be a greedy SOB that never cared for anything but getting his own.


When you're rolling in hundreds of millions a year and consider other peoples' livelihoods expendable, you might be a millionaire - and I doubt anyone like that participates in this forum.

It's the fact these people don't care about the lives of other people that make them such disgusting samples of the human genome. They're not really human because being human means having a soul and those people clearly don't have one or they wouldn't look at anyone or their livelihood as expendable. And a few people in my family are (or were) millionaires and that certainly is NOT their attitude towards life.

lucaseve
May 30, 2011, 05:46 AM
the Italians are dicks and know nothing about the law.

Having been to Italy many a time I can vouch that the above is indeed correct.;)

Hey Henry, do you have some problem with Italians?
Perhaps we don't know much about law, but sure French seem to know much less...

However back on topic what boozezela says below is indeed correct:

In Italy when the good fails during the 1st year you can either contact the seller or the manufacturer.

Depending on the policies in place, the seller could just give you a new item, or simply contact the manufacturer on your behalf.

In the second scenario it would be advisable to contact the manufacturer yourself to save some time.

During the second year, for manufacturing defects (like a chip that is known to fail after 13 months for instance) the seller is responsible. If the manufacturer does not acknowledge the defect, the loss will be on the seller.

In this specific case, where Apple is the manufacturer and the seller, when the product develops a problem during the second year, Apple will simply quote you for a repair and, if the defect is severe and later gets recognised as manufacturing defect, will refund you.

TheralSadurns
Oct 27, 2011, 09:02 AM
I have a old MBP that had 6 days left on the 2 year european warranty, logic board, DVD, and keyboard all failed at the same time and Apple repaired all free of charge, they even gave me a 90 day extension guarantee. so your 99.999999% worthless statement has no logic or truth.

Nope. I am still 100% correct. You may read up on laws or even go STUDY law, THEN we may talk.

What Apple DOES and what Apple is FORCED TO DO by law are two separate things that stand in no relation. Was it nice what Apple did for you? Definitely. Did they HAVE to do it? By no means.

As an aside. On ALL repairs Apple does there is a 90days warranty. Be it free or paid repairs.

Whether there MAY be additional laws that apply only to Spain, I do not know, however. But what I said earlier is still 100% true.

boldsoon
Jul 19, 2012, 09:43 AM
Portuguese institution for defense of consumer rights take legal action against Apple's one year guarantee.

Meanwhile portuguese euro deputies ask European Comission to take legal action at european level.

http://www.publico.pt/Tecnologia/deco-avanca-hoje-com-accao-judicial-contra-a-apple-1555347