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MacRumors
May 29, 2011, 01:27 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/29/mac-os-x-10-6-8-to-remove-macdefender-get-mac-app-store-ready-for-lion/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/05/6a00d83451c7b569e20154329bbed3970c.png

(http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/05/6a00d83451c7b569e20154329bbed3970c.png)
Apple seeded developers with Mac OS X 10.6.8 (10K531) on Friday. As first noted (http://www.fscklog.com/2011/05/mac-os-x-1068-mac-app-store-vorbereitung-fĂĽr-lion-upgrade.html) by fscklog.com, the 10.6.8 update will offer a number of interesting enhancements.

First, Apple will use the 10.6.8 to identify and remove known variants of the Mac Defender malware. Apple released (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/24/apple-to-update-mac-os-x-to-remove-mac-defender-malware/) a support document last week detailing the Mac Defender malware and promising a software update to remove it. It appears 10.6.8 will be the update that accomplishes it.

Next, Apple is said to be "enhancing the Mac App Store" to get your Mac ready to upgrade to Mac OS X Lion. Lion is believed to be offered to customers via the Mac App Store. It is presently distributed to developers via Mac App Store downloads, so it's no stretch of the imagination that Apple will also be offering it to customers in the same way. Apple is expected to provide more details about Mac OS X Lion at the annual Worldwide Developer's Conference which kicks off on June 6th.

Article Link: Mac OS X 10.6.8 to Remove MacDefender, Get Mac App Store Ready for Lion (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/29/mac-os-x-10-6-8-to-remove-macdefender-get-mac-app-store-ready-for-lion/)



kk1ro
May 29, 2011, 01:32 PM
I really want to buy Lion through the App Store as soon as it comes out, but I wonder if we'll be able to burn a Lion DVD, using the downloadable version.
There are occasions when a bootable OS DVD is the only way to format your Mac and I really don't want to install Snow Leopard and then upgrade to Lion every time I decide to format my HDD.

1080p
May 29, 2011, 01:34 PM
I just hope it comes via DVD too. I run a Hackintosh PC, so I think updating to Lion via Mac App Store might break something.

Flaxxx
May 29, 2011, 01:36 PM
I really want to buy Lion through the App Store as soon as it comes out, but I wonder if we'll be able to burn a Lion DVD, using the downloadable version.
There are occasions when a bootable OS DVD is the only way to format your Mac and I really don't want to install Snow Leopard and then upgrade to Lion every time I decide to format my HDD.

I came here to ask that same question. I wonder if I'd be able to put it on an external hard drive, pen drive, etc...

Yamcha
May 29, 2011, 01:37 PM
Awesome, guys this probably means that OS X Lion will infact be released whenever WWDC2011 is..

asdf542
May 29, 2011, 01:38 PM
I hope there's a disk release so that if I have to restore/clean install I won't have to install Snow Leopard, download 10.6.8 then download and install Lion.

Detektiv-Pinky
May 29, 2011, 01:42 PM
Wow, does anybody know more about the improved IPv6 support - will we finally get DHCPv6?

Deflorator
May 29, 2011, 01:44 PM
Mac Defender here, Mac Defender there, i feel i should give it a try. Really miss those old days before i switched. Btw. i am sure i will buy Lion via App Store.

RodThePlod
May 29, 2011, 01:44 PM
I hope there's a disk release so that if I have to restore/clean install I won't have to install Snow Leopard, download 10.6.8 then download and install Lion.

Installing via the App Store will be Apple's preferred option, however there will be the option to install via traditional media.

RTP.

petvas
May 29, 2011, 01:48 PM
I really want to buy Lion through the App Store as soon as it comes out, but I wonder if we'll be able to burn a Lion DVD, using the downloadable version.
There are occasions when a bootable OS DVD is the only way to format your Mac and I really don't want to install Snow Leopard and then upgrade to Lion every time I decide to format my HDD.

I downloaded the dev preview 3 version from the Mac store and I was able to make a bootable DVD out of it, however there was no utility to do that. I had to find the dmg file in the package. Hopefully Apple will provide a better way to do that.

KnightWRX
May 29, 2011, 01:49 PM
I'll probably just buy the optical media again since I have 2 Macs to upgrade. I really need to get to buying an external DVD writer for my MBA too, so I can use the digital copies of my Blu-ray movies too.

ouimetnick
May 29, 2011, 01:50 PM
I hope lion comes on a DVD too! I have to wait 3 days to download Xcode via the App Store at home. Pretty pathetic. It a 4.5GB file. Funny, because Xcode 3 via Safari takes about 4 hours. It seems that downloads via the App Store are slower than downloading stuff using Safari.

If my Mac crashes, having to reinstall OSX 10.6.3, then update to 10.6.8, then get Lion via the App Store will be a pain in the ass. I HOPE its on a DVD, so should my Mac crash, I just pop in the DVD, wipe the hard drive, and install!

OllyW
May 29, 2011, 01:51 PM
Awesome, guys this probably means that OS X Lion will infact be released whenever WWDC2011 is..

That's a week tomorrow.

irchs
May 29, 2011, 01:53 PM
Wow, does anybody know more about the improved IPv6 support - will we finally get DHCPv6?

Hopefully it's an IPv6 capable firewall!

Pentad
May 29, 2011, 01:55 PM
Not to rain on anyone's parade, but Lion is nowhere near ready for release.

The betas are flaky at best.

No developers have had time to build against Lion for testing.

If Apple released Lion without going through normal development cycles it would be suicide.

Look, I teach CS and Software Engineering outlines development cycles for a reason. I want Lion as much as everyone else but I was a STABLE version that runs all my software. Not a version that is riddled with bugs because Apple is so secret that don't even let developers test their software on the new OS.

Finally, at the risk of being hated, I sure hope Lion doesn't disappoint. Nothing I seen so far in Lion makes me go "Wow!" like previous full versions have (SL does not count).

Oh, and I too would like a DVD...

Cheers!
-P

Risco
May 29, 2011, 01:55 PM
Quick question, if I buy a Mac before its release will I get a free upgrade?

Full of Win
May 29, 2011, 01:56 PM
I hope there's a disk release so that if I have to restore/clean install I won't have to install Snow Leopard, download 10.6.8 then download and install Lion.

Pretty much why I'm sticking to physical media. Fresh install on a completely reformatted drive, sans special sectors/partitions, is what I want.

NorCal Explorer
May 29, 2011, 01:57 PM
I agree with everyone here that they still need to provide a dvd or a thumb drive for installation or restore. This is unavoidable since if you restoring your mac how are you to connect to the internet. They must provide a physical medium to install or restore to the mac.:apple:

drummerdude1390
May 29, 2011, 01:59 PM
Not to rain on anyone's parade, but Lion is nowhere near ready for release.

The betas are flaky at best.

No developers have had time to build against Lion for testing.

If Apple released Lion without going through normal development cycles it would be suicide.

Look, I teach CS and Software Engineering outlines development cycles for a reason. I want Lion as much as everyone else but I was a STABLE version that runs all my software. Not a version that is riddled with bugs because Apple is so secret that don't even let developers test their software on the new OS.

Finally, at the risk of being hated, I sure hope Lion doesn't disappoint. Nothing I seen so far in Lion makes me go "Wow!" like previous full versions have (SL does not count).

Oh, and I too would like a DVD...

Cheers!
-P


Jobs said it would be released in June. If its not at WWDC, then they only have a couple of weeks to meet the deadline.

roadbloc
May 29, 2011, 02:00 PM
Quick question, if I buy a Mac before its release will I get a free upgrade?
There is usually a grace period of about two weeks where Apple will give you a free or discounted upgrade to Lion.

drummerdude1390
May 29, 2011, 02:00 PM
I really want to buy Lion through the App Store as soon as it comes out, but I wonder if we'll be able to burn a Lion DVD, using the downloadable version.
There are occasions when a bootable OS DVD is the only way to format your Mac and I really don't want to install Snow Leopard and then upgrade to Lion every time I decide to format my HDD.

Yeh having both options would be nice. Mac App Store one would allow unlimited copies to any computer with that iTunes ID.

lars666
May 29, 2011, 02:01 PM
I agree with everyone here that they still need to provide a dvd or a thumb drive for installation or restore. This is unavoidable since if you restoring your mac how are you to connect to the internet. They must provide a physical medium to install or restore to the mac.:apple:

Not to mention that, when the time of selling comes, putting the Lion OS to your Mac will be more attractive to the buyer than only Snow Leopard or whatever you had before - and you can only do such a "transfer" with a DVD/stick and not with an AppStore buy. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) Even if Lion costs 20 dollars more on a physical medium, I'll still prefer this ...

ouimetnick
May 29, 2011, 02:01 PM
Jobs said it would be released in June. If its not at WWDC, then they only have a couple of weeks to meet the deadline.

I'm pretty sure they said it would ship this summer. Or did I miss anything?

lunarworks
May 29, 2011, 02:02 PM
No developers have had time to build against Lion for testing.
Wat?

Isn't that what the Lion Developer Preview was for?

Or are all the devs you know lazy gits?

malman89
May 29, 2011, 02:03 PM
Regarding the Mac Defender patch, what about those still running Leopard? Does it only target Snow Leopard?

Not like I'm stupid enough to install something like that on my computer, but it would be nice to know if they're extending the protection to other users.

OllyW
May 29, 2011, 02:03 PM
Jobs said it would be released in June. If its not at WWDC, then they only have a couple of weeks to meet the deadline.

No, Steve Jobs said it will be released in Summer 2011 (http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/20/os-x-10-7-lion-announced/).

OneMike
May 29, 2011, 02:03 PM
DVD doesn't really make a difference to me as long as I'll be able to burn it to a partition to one of my externals like I normally do.

Risco
May 29, 2011, 02:05 PM
There is usually a grace period of about two weeks where Apple will give you a free or discounted upgrade to Lion.

Thanks!

KnightWRX
May 29, 2011, 02:05 PM
Jobs said it would be released in June. If its not at WWDC, then they only have a couple of weeks to meet the deadline.

No he didn't. He said Summer '11. That covers only 8 days of June, and could also be in July, August or September.

Mighuel
May 29, 2011, 02:06 PM
Quick question, if I buy a Mac before its release will I get a free upgrade?

Can't remember for sure but I think a friend of mine got Leopard at discounted price when he had recently purchased a Mac. This subject also interests me as I ordered a new Macbook Pro just yesterday.

However no one knows the answer for sure but we can hope that we'll get cheap if not free upgrade.

the8thark
May 29, 2011, 02:06 PM
I just hope it comes via DVD too. I run a Hackintosh PC, so I think updating to Lion via Mac App Store might break something.
You want Apple to help you break the law (ie their end user agreement about only using OS X on Apple hardware)? Somehow I don't that will be happening.

Skika
May 29, 2011, 02:07 PM
What about an option of being able to make a dvd or an usb key out of the app store download?

I think that would be great!

zin
May 29, 2011, 02:08 PM
I really hope I'll be able to create or buy a physical copy. Having digital-only copies of something as important as an entire operating system doesn't really sit too well with me.

In addition, I really don't want to wait 2-3 hours downloading an entire OS. I would rather have the disk delivered to my door, ready to start upgrading immediately.

KnightWRX
May 29, 2011, 02:09 PM
I still think Apple should do what all Linux distros do. Just sell you a freaking "do what you want with it" ISO image. Burn it to DVD, mount it and share it, burn it to USB to make it bootable.

Having to "install" through the Mac App Store is ridiculous. I don't use the Mac App Store, it's not configured on my Mac, yet I would gladly download Lion. The Mac App Store should be for Apps, not OSes. If they want to get into the game of network based OS installation, just look how it's been done since the 90s. I've installed Linux through the Internet since my RedHat 5.x days.

Cougarcat
May 29, 2011, 02:10 PM
You want Apple to help you break the law (ie their end user agreement about only using OS X on Apple hardware)? Somehow I don't that will be happening.

That's not breaking the law. :rolleyes:

Anyway, when you download from the App Store you end up with a .pkg which can be opened to extract the .dmg, which you can just burn or restore to a partition. Hackintoshes will be fine.

SandynJosh
May 29, 2011, 02:11 PM
Finally, at the risk of being hated, I sure hope Lion doesn't disappoint. Nothing I seen so far in Lion makes me go "Wow!" like previous full versions have (SL does not count).

Last time I went "wow" was when version 3.x was released back in the '80s.

However Apple is likely keeping the big news about Lion under wraps until next week. They seems to think Lion will be a big deal. There is usually a lot of hyperbolae about a new OS. The 2007 press release announcing the hapless Vista quoted Bill Gates saying it would "transform the way people work and play"

Little did he know that Vista would cause a lot of people to flock to the Mac OS, so he was technically right.

KnightWRX
May 29, 2011, 02:11 PM
That's not breaking the law. :rolleyes:

It's not ? You don't have a copyright law where you're at ?

Cougarcat
May 29, 2011, 02:15 PM
It's not ? You don't have a copyright law where you're at ?

Breaking a EULA is breaking a contract. You aren't breaking the law.

But the fuzzy legalities of EULAs has been discussed here to death, let's stay on topic.


Last time I went "wow" was when version 3.x was released back in the '80s.


The last time I went "wow" was when they demoed Exposé for the first time. It was in an Apple Store, back when they had the theaters. The whole room erupted, it was as if Steve had given everyone a free car. ;)

Detektiv-Pinky
May 29, 2011, 02:20 PM
Hopefully it's an IPv6 capable firewall!

What is wrong with ip6fw?

plaxico44
May 29, 2011, 02:21 PM
I really want to buy Lion through the App Store as soon as it comes out, but I wonder if we'll be able to burn a Lion DVD, using the downloadable version.
There are occasions when a bootable OS DVD is the only way to format your Mac and I really don't want to install Snow Leopard and then upgrade to Lion every time I decide to format my HDD.

I was thinking the exact same thing.

kjjnk
May 29, 2011, 02:24 PM
The last time I went "wow" was when they demoed Exposé for the first time. It was in an Apple Store, back when they had the theaters. The whole room erupted, it was as if Steve had given everyone a free car. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAvHMDR1N3U

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 02:24 PM
Not to rain on anyone's parade, but Lion is nowhere near ready for release.

The betas are flaky at best.

No developers have had time to build against Lion for testing.

If Apple released Lion without going through normal development cycles it would be suicide.

Look, I teach CS and Software Engineering outlines development cycles for a reason. I want Lion as much as everyone else but I was a STABLE version that runs all my software. Not a version that is riddled with bugs because Apple is so secret that don't even let developers test their software on the new OS.

Finally, at the risk of being hated, I sure hope Lion doesn't disappoint. Nothing I seen so far in Lion makes me go "Wow!" like previous full versions have (SL does not count).

Oh, and I too would like a DVD...

Cheers!
-P

Developers had by today more than 3 months to do their testing, and that's just all developers. Major developers probably were given Lion betas even before DP1 appeared in ADC.

Not to mention, 99% of the apps I use do work in Lion without major issues at the moment, so I don't really think that app compatibility is a big issue. It was a bigger issue when SL was released due to kexts not supporting K64, and that took some time. Lion doesn't bring something that new to the table so it'll be quicker for apps to fully support it.

Oh also, I think DP3 was almost good enough to use for everyday work. If it wasn't for some apps that weren't supported, and lack of macports support for Lion, I would have switched it already. It's buggy, but not that buggy. And Webkit2 rocks.

Žalgiris
May 29, 2011, 02:27 PM
I'm definitely buying it from App Store, putting it on the flash drive or external HDD. Death to optical media.

drummerdude1390
May 29, 2011, 02:28 PM
No, Steve Jobs said it will be released in Summer 2011 (http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/20/os-x-10-7-lion-announced/).

good call. My mistake.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 02:34 PM
I still think Apple should do what all Linux distros do. Just sell you a freaking "do what you want with it" ISO image. Burn it to DVD, mount it and share it, burn it to USB to make it bootable.

Having to "install" through the Mac App Store is ridiculous. I don't use the Mac App Store, it's not configured on my Mac, yet I would gladly download Lion. The Mac App Store should be for Apps, not OSes. If they want to get into the game of network based OS installation, just look how it's been done since the 90s. I've installed Linux through the Internet since my RedHat 5.x days.

Yes but .ISO image is much less convenient for people who use Macbook Air's for example. They can't just burn it and install from disc. App Store installer application doesn't need burning, it can install Lion to any partition available on the computer. It's actually much much more convenient than .ISO images which need to be booted from. So you either have to burn them, or restore them to an extra partition (not the install partition), so if you don't have a DVD-ROM or if you don't have DVD media at home, you need an extra partition just for this job, to install Mac OS right now.

I have done this the way you said for many years since I always downloaded OS X builds through ADC, in .dmg form. But installing Lion through App Store has been so much easier this beta phase.

jbyun04
May 29, 2011, 02:35 PM
I started using Macs with Snow Leopard so I don't know how it would work if I were to upgrade to Lion via fresh install.. wouldn't Time Machining my old stuff back bring Snow Leopard back or does Time Machine only restore the files and apps you have installed?

Biolizard
May 29, 2011, 02:36 PM
No way are we going to have a WWDC release. We're still on Developer Previews, not even a Beta. Going straight to RTM would be nuts.

Plus, I'm betting on some headline features being unveiled at WWDC, or at least some new aspects to the OS. Remember WWDC 2009? We learnt about Grand Central amongst other things and SL came nearly 3 months later (so says Wikipedia!)

What WWDC will give is a Beta incorporating the latest updates to the DP series of builds, plus whatever Apple's been hiding until now. Release to follow.

*Insert lame 'You heard it here first' cliche*

Žalgiris
May 29, 2011, 02:37 PM
I started using Macs with Snow Leopard so I don't know how it would work if I were to upgrade to Lion via fresh install.. wouldn't Time Machining my old stuff back bring Snow Leopard back or does Time Machine only restore the files and apps you have installed?

TM does every file unless you tell it otherwise.

SandynJosh
May 29, 2011, 02:40 PM
I started using Macs with Snow Leopard so I don't know how it would work if I were to upgrade to Lion via fresh install.. wouldn't Time Machining my old stuff back bring Snow Leopard back or does Time Machine only restore the files and apps you have installed?

Fear not, young grasshopper, all will be easy and goof proof. The Turttle-necked one protects all who believe in Him. ;)

Cougarcat
May 29, 2011, 02:43 PM
Yes but .ISO image is much less convenient for people who use Macbook Air's for example. They can't just burn it and install from disc. App Store installer application doesn't need burning, it can install Lion to any partition available on the computer. It's actually much much more convenient than .ISO images which need to be booted from.

Except for when you need to boot from an external due to a hardware failure.

We'll see how it works in the final release, but when you double-click on the .pkg it needs to allow you to restore the install to a partition or DVD or flash drive, in addition to a normal install.

Xtremehkr
May 29, 2011, 02:43 PM
I'm very curious as to how Apple is going to handle Malware outbreaks in the future.

Is the update something that is going to close the door on Malware programs like MacDefender or is Apple planning on addressing Malware on a case by case basis as they appear.

I would really like to know what Apple is doing to combat malware before it really becomes a problem.

asdf542
May 29, 2011, 02:47 PM
I'm very curious as to how Apple is going to handle Malware outbreaks in the future.

Is the update something that is going to close the door on Malware programs like MacDefender or is Apple planning on addressing Malware on a case by case basis as they appear.

I would really like to know what Apple is doing to combat malware before it really becomes a problem.
http://www.macworld.com/article/142457/2009/08/snowleopard_malware.html
http://www.macrumors.com/2009/08/26/snow-leopard-antimalware-feature-gaining-publicity/
http://www.macrumors.com/2010/06/18/apple-quietly-updates-antimalware-protection-in-mac-os-x-10-6-4/

lunarworks
May 29, 2011, 02:48 PM
No way are we going to have a WWDC release. We're still on Developer Previews, not even a Beta. Going straight to RTM would be nuts.

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

If Apple decides to call it a "Developer Preview" rather than a "Beta", that's their prerogative.

Wingsy
May 29, 2011, 02:48 PM
Unfortunately for me I've got several older apps that need Rosetta to run. A couple of these are quite expensive and at least one has no version that does not require Rosetta. And all of them do what I need them to do so I have no desire to purchase "upgrades". All because Apple doesn't see any need to include Rosetta in Lion. So I'll pass for now and catch up later.

Xtremehkr
May 29, 2011, 02:51 PM
http://www.macworld.com/article/142457/2009/08/snowleopard_malware.html

That implies that Apple will be handling all updates and solutions for malware.

I hope Lion improves on that as well. Not that there has been any problems with malware on this end.

If something asks for installation permission and you weren't trying to install anything, say no.

archipellago
May 29, 2011, 02:52 PM
Last time I went "wow" was when version 3.x was released back in the '80s.

However Apple is likely keeping the big news about Lion under wraps until next week. They seems to think Lion will be a big deal. There is usually a lot of hyperbolae about a new OS. The 2007 press release announcing the hapless Vista quoted Bill Gates saying it would "transform the way people work and play"

Little did he know that Vista would cause a lot of people to flock to the Mac OS, so he was technically right.

'flock to'..

must be another way of saying 4% worldwide market share :rolleyes:

asdf542
May 29, 2011, 02:53 PM
That implies that Apple will be handling all updates and solutions for malware.

I hope Lion improves on that as well. Not that there has been any problems with malware on this end.

If something asks for installation permission and you weren't trying to install anything, say no.

Check the other links I edited in as well.

Žalgiris
May 29, 2011, 02:53 PM
All because Apple doesn't see any need to include Rosetta in Lion. So I'll pass for now and catch up later.

Yes it's all Apple's fault.

benthewraith
May 29, 2011, 02:58 PM
I agree with everyone here that they still need to provide a dvd or a thumb drive for installation or restore. This is unavoidable since if you restoring your mac how are you to connect to the internet. They must provide a physical medium to install or restore to the mac.:apple:

Wasn't Lion supposed to create a recovery partition that would store that information?

Cougarcat
May 29, 2011, 03:03 PM
Wasn't Lion supposed to create a recovery partition that would store that information?

If your hard drive dies, your recovery partition will be inaccessible.

ogee
May 29, 2011, 03:08 PM
Unfortunately for me I've got several older apps that need Rosetta to run. A couple of these are quite expensive and at least one has no version that does not require Rosetta. And all of them do what I need them to do so I have no desire to purchase "upgrades". All because Apple doesn't see any need to include Rosetta in Lion. So I'll pass for now and catch up later.


How about Parallels with a copy of SL in it for those apps ?

SandynJosh
May 29, 2011, 03:10 PM
I'm very curious as to how Apple is going to handle Malware outbreaks in the future.

Is the update something that is going to close the door on Malware programs like MacDefender or is Apple planning on addressing Malware on a case by case basis as they appear.

I would really like to know what Apple is doing to combat malware before it really becomes a problem.

I was just reading a security blog (see link below) where MACDefender was labeled "Scareware" instead of Malware. It brought up an interesting way to distinguish between deliberate acts of the user bringing on the infection vs. all the other ways one could become infected.

Apple has addressed the latter, but there's little any manufacturer can do to protect you from yourself. That said, Apple has described Lion as "bringing to the Mac lessons learned from iOS." One of the lessons learned was how valuable it is for users to have a trusted source for software i.e. "the App Store."

If you look at the track record for the iDevices, the only malware to break out was in jailbroken devices. Now, contrast that with the Android platform where every device is as vulnerable as a jailbroken iPhone:

http://www.csoonline.com/article/659764/shmoocon-2011-your-android-s-dirty-little-secret

When you compare Apple's ecosystem to other company's... you can see that Apple is looking further afield to solve malware problems than any other manufacturer, in my opinion.

If you, as an user, become used to looking to a trusted source for your software, then you are less inclined to be scared into rash thoughtless actions and infecting yourself.

munkery
May 29, 2011, 03:13 PM
'flock to'..

must be another way of saying 4% worldwide market share :rolleyes:

The market share of Macs in more developed countries is rising steadily and that trend will most likely continue in those regions and to new markets. I don't think consumers are unsure of the longevity of Apple anymore.

KnightWRX
May 29, 2011, 03:17 PM
Breaking a EULA is breaking a contract. You aren't breaking the law.

What copyright license do you have to make the copy you are making on your HDD from the install media then ?

The EULA is more than just a contract (and contract law ring a bell ?).

baryon
May 29, 2011, 03:17 PM
I hope there's a disk release so that if I have to restore/clean install I won't have to install Snow Leopard, download 10.6.8 then download and install Lion.

I really want to buy Lion through the App Store as soon as it comes out, but I wonder if we'll be able to burn a Lion DVD, using the downloadable version.
There are occasions when a bootable OS DVD is the only way to format your Mac and I really don't want to install Snow Leopard and then upgrade to Lion every time I decide to format my HDD.

Lion has a recovery partition like Windows 7 does. That way, you can boot into that partition and perform everything you can do on the DVD - but without the DVD.

KnightWRX
May 29, 2011, 03:19 PM
Yes but .ISO image is much less convenient for people who use Macbook Air's for example. They can't just burn it and install from disc.

Hum, you can write a ISO image to a USB flash drive just fine. My MBA happens to have 2 USB ports and my desk has plenty of USB flash drives just lying around on it.

An ISO image is the most convenient form there is, since you can do anything with it.

roadbloc
May 29, 2011, 03:21 PM
The market share of Macs in more developed countries is rising steadily and that trend will most likely continue in those regions and to new markets. I don't think consumers are unsure of the longevity of Apple anymore.

Thats all well and good and I'ma let you finish, but that doesn't stop the worldwide market share from being 4% at the moment.

lunarworks
May 29, 2011, 03:25 PM
Thats all well and good and I'ma let you finish, but that doesn't stop the worldwide market share from being 4% at the moment.

The "worldwide market share" includes places like India and China, where Windows dominates... but doesn't actually sell any copies of Windows.

KnightWRX
May 29, 2011, 03:29 PM
Thats all well and good and I'ma let you finish, but that doesn't stop the worldwide market share from being 4% at the moment.

And that matters why ? As long as the OS does what the user needs it to do, who cares how many people use it ? Being the most widespread (especially when talking about desktop OSes, where one's illegal use of their monopoly in the 90s basically cemented their position) means nothing.

People don't realize how much the OS doesn't matter. No one uses a OS. People use applications to perform tasks. And most of the tasks computers are used for these days, it doesn't matter that the user uses Windows, OS X or Linux or even freaking Solaris. All OSes can browse the web, read e-mail and write documents.

roadbloc
May 29, 2011, 03:31 PM
And that matters why ?

Never said it did. I'm personally looking forward to Lion, I have a friend looking forward to Windows 8. Doesn't matter one bit.

Bear
May 29, 2011, 03:32 PM
I really want to buy Lion through the App Store as soon as it comes out, but I wonder if we'll be able to burn a Lion DVD, using the downloadable version.
There are occasions when a bootable OS DVD is the only way to format your Mac and I really don't want to install Snow Leopard and then upgrade to Lion every time I decide to format my HDD.This is a winning comment.

Also, if you need to run Disk Utility from DVD, it's best to have a version that's close to what you're actually running.

Unless there's a real savings (more than $10 or so) I'm willing to get a boxed version of Lion. Saves me the hassle of making a DVD among other things.

Bear
May 29, 2011, 03:35 PM
Wasn't Lion supposed to create a recovery partition that would store that information?
Lion has a recovery partition like Windows 7 does. That way, you can boot into that partition and perform everything you can do on the DVD - but without the DVD.Except for replacing the disk and doing a fresh install on that new disk. Also, it's possible for a recovery partition to get corrupted.

And how does it make a recovery partition on a disc that is already in use? I know there are ways it could do this, but depending on the state of the filesystem, it could be a lot of gyrations by the software.

joueboy
May 29, 2011, 03:37 PM
I would like to upgrade to Lion if my applications are compatible. It's ridiculous that every time I upgrade my system with new OS or just an OS, some of the applications become unusable.

KnightWRX
May 29, 2011, 03:38 PM
Except for replacing the disk and doing a fresh install on that new disk. Also, it's possible for a recovery partition to get corrupted.

And how does it make a recovery partition on a disc that is already in use? I know there are ways it could do this, but depending on the state of the filesystem, it could be a lot of gyrations by the software.

Anyway, why would I want to waste the disk space on my laptop for a recovery partition ?

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 03:42 PM
Hum, you can write a ISO image to a USB flash drive just fine. My MBA happens to have 2 USB ports and my desk has plenty of USB flash drives just lying around on it.

An ISO image is the most convenient form there is, since you can do anything with it.

Except like I said, and you ignored, you need to burn it to something to install OS X from it.

If the installer within the .ISO worked like the installer which comes from App Store, that'd be good. But it doesn't. It needs to be booted from to be installed, so it's an inconvenience. It's twice time spent, one for burning / copying it, and then for installing it.

With the App Store app, like I said and you ignored, you can directly install it anywhere you want. So it's much quicker. And since you can do anything you want with the installer App which comes from App Store as well, it's just better than an ISO in all aspects.

For years installing OS X has been a pain in the ass for me. DVD-R installs take forever, so I always kept an extra partition for it, around 5GB, just enough for the installer disc. USB install is not much different. 400mbps throughput for installing 10GB's? No thanks. I want a 5 minute install through SATA.

I really don't understand what you don't like about the installer app which comes through App Store. It has everything the ISO has anyway, except it's not a bootable image. So unless you use the OS X install disc as a first aid second boot disk, the new app doesn't take anything away from you either.

GekkePrutser
May 29, 2011, 03:45 PM
Lion has a recovery partition like Windows 7 does. That way, you can boot into that partition and perform everything you can do on the DVD - but without the DVD.

I still prefer a physical disc or read-only USB stick (like the MacBook Air has).

A recovery image on the standard HD is not an option for me. Too easy for malware to infect it, so it can be sure it can persist even through an OS reinstallation.

If it can be manually written to a USB stick then fine (I've got write-protected USB drives) but if Apple offers a physical media option besides the App Store download then I'll take it for sure even if it's double the price.

Bear
May 29, 2011, 03:45 PM
Anyway, why would I want to waste the disk space on my laptop for a recovery partition ?Good question.. Or what if you only have 64 GB SSD in your Air. That would be a noticeable chunk of space out of the SSD for a recovery partition.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 03:49 PM
Anyway, why would I want to waste the disk space on my laptop for a recovery partition ?

The recovery partition is less than a gigabyte in size. Not a terrible loss.

KnightWRX
May 29, 2011, 03:50 PM
Except like I said, and you ignored, you need to burn it to something to install OS X from it.

I didn't ignore it. I'll repeat it again in case you missed it the first 2 times : you "burn" it to the USB thumb drive, which then becomes bootable and lets you install.

Or you burn it to DVD and you boot and install from that.

Or you mount it install from that.

Or... ISO images are really the most versatile thing there is.

Why can't Apple just sell you the ISO image and a utility to "write" it to any media you like. It could be made dead simple and wouldn't require the App Store or running an "installer" on a Mac. It should also be available for purchase and download outside the Mac App Store.

The recovery partition is less than a gigabyte in size. Not a terrible loss.

That's 3 anime episodes in 720p.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 03:52 PM
I still prefer a physical disc or read-only USB stick (like the MacBook Air has).

A recovery image on the standard HD is not an option for me. Too easy for malware to infect it, so it can be sure it can persist even through an OS reinstallation.

If it can be manually written to a USB stick then fine (I've got write-protected USB drives) but if Apple offers a physical media option besides the App Store download then I'll take it for sure even if it's double the price.

Take a USB stick, or a DVD-R, install OS X on it, and put it on the side. Why do you need Apple to give it to you? You can put a bootable OS X on any HFS+ partition of any kind, you always could.

rorschach
May 29, 2011, 03:53 PM
No way will Lion be released at WWDC. It just isn’t ready. I predict a July or August release.

We will get a demo of a few new features and a recap of what we already know. (There hasn’t been an update on Lion since last October.) There will be another DP released on the day of the keynote, then a few more builds after that before the GM in July/August.

KnightWRX
May 29, 2011, 03:54 PM
No way will Lion be released at WWDC. It just isn’t ready. I predict a July or August release.

Considering WWDC happens in the Spring and Apple said Summer '11, anyone hoping for a WWDC release is living in a fantasy world.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 03:56 PM
I didn't ignore it. I'll repeat it again in case you missed it the first 2 times : you "burn" it to the USB thumb drive, which then becomes bootable and lets you install.

Or you burn it to DVD and you boot and install from that.

Or you mount it install from that.

Or... ISO images are really the most versatile thing there is.



That's 3 anime episodes in 720p.
And like I wrote and you ignored, installing directly using an app > more than twice as fast as installing it after burning it onto something, be it USB or DVD-R.

Also ISO is not the most versatile thing around. App Store App is. Because you can simply create an install disc using the App Store App. Just install OS X and copy the installer App onto it, there you go, your own personal OS X install USB stick.

Edit: You don't need to install OS X onto the stick, just copy the app, which is enough. As long as you want the USB stick to be an OS install stick, that's enough.
But you can't use the ISO to install OS X the way you can through App Store. So App Store way is the most versatile one.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 03:58 PM
That's 3 anime episodes in 720p.

Copy those 3 anime episodes on your now empty USB stick. :)

catracho
May 29, 2011, 04:04 PM
I bet that an "update only" version will be available through Mac App Store.

I you want the complete version, you will need to buy the DVD.

Bear
May 29, 2011, 04:05 PM
Also ISO is not the most versatile thing around. App Store App is. Because you can simply create an install disc using the App Store App. Just install OS X and copy the installer App onto it, there you go, your own personal OS X install USB stick.Am I reading this correctly?

You are saying to do an OS X install onto a USB flash drive then copy the Lion Installer from the App Store on to that same USB stick?

When you do that you can't write protect the USB flash drive. You need the Lion download to be a bootable ISO image so when burnt to a DVD it's bootable. Or when it's copied on to a USB flash stick that is then write protected.

KnightWRX
May 29, 2011, 04:05 PM
And like I wrote and you ignored, installing directly using an app > more than twice as fast as installing it after burning it onto something, be it USB or DVD-R.

That requires I have an OS already up and running. Having media external to an installed OS is a must for me and many others.

Also ISO is not the most versatile thing around. App Store App is. Because you can simply create an install disc using the App Store App. Just install OS X and copy the installer App onto it, there you go, your own personal OS X install USB stick.

The App store requires me to have OS X to purchase and download the installer. An ISO could be acquired and downloaded from any other OS or computer in case a Mac is not readily available. An ISO is much more versatile, unless you don't actually know what versatile means. ;)

Edit: You don't need to install OS X onto the stick, just copy the app, which is enough. As long as you want the USB stick to be an OS install stick, that's enough.
But you can't use the ISO to install OS X the way you can through App Store. So App Store way is the most versatile one.

You can use the ISO download to install the same way that the App Store does. Again since you missed all 3 first times :

Mount it. Run installer.

Except the ISO also allows you to create bootable media using different types of said media (USB thumb drive, optical disk) also. It is more versatile.

I don't even see how you can claim the App Store method is versatile, it's basically just 1 way of doing it that is completely inflexible. There is no versatility there.

Copy those 3 anime episodes on your now empty USB stick. :)

I need to store them on my HDD first. And why would I copy them to USB sticks ? I copy them to my NAS after watching them from my laptop.

Seems to me you're just trying to defend the Mac App Store here. It's fine for apps. I don't personally like it or use it, but I don't think it's a bad thing. For an OS install though ? Way too confining and restricting. It lacks versatility.

Bear
May 29, 2011, 04:07 PM
I bet that an "update only" version will be available through Mac App Store.

I you want the complete version, you will need to buy the DVD.No App Store version for me then. I like the option of being able to do a fresh install without having to install an older version of OS X and then updating it so the App Store download will work.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 04:09 PM
I bet that an "update only" version will be available through Mac App Store.

I you want the complete version, you will need to buy the DVD.

App Store will have a complete installer, just like right now with the DP's. And unlike a DVD, Apple may even update the installer on App Store every now and then, so people can simply get 10.7.5 installer, or 10.7.9 installer.

Apple did that once or twice in ADC with Leopard and SL, but not with every release. But of course this is a speculation on my part.

Cougarcat
May 29, 2011, 04:11 PM
No App Store version for me then. I like the option of being able to do a fresh install without having to install an older version of OS X and then updating it so the App Store download will work.

I doubt you need to worry, as you can install the beta from the App Store as a fresh install. The only "update" version Apple makes is the one they stick inside their computer boxes at the time of release.

Bear
May 29, 2011, 04:12 PM
I doubt you need to worry, as you can install the beta from the App Store as a fresh install. The only "update" version Apple makes is the one they stick inside their computer boxes at the time of release.Is what gets downloaded for the Lion DP a bootable ISO image? I don't think anyone has stated that clearly. They've just said you get an installer.

Cougarcat
May 29, 2011, 04:15 PM
Is what gets downloaded for the Lion DP a bootable ISO image? I don't think anyone has stated that clearly. They've just said you get an installer.

It's an installer with a .dmg contained inside. If you do "show package contents" on it you can find the dmg which you can burn. (See here (http://holgr.com/blog/2011/02/creating-a-bootable-os-x-10-7-lion-disc/).)

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 04:22 PM
You can use the ISO download to install the same way that the App Store does. Again since you missed all 3 first times :

Mount it. Run installer.



You cannot install from mounted ISO's. Not OS X. It always needs to boot from it. There are some "hack" ways to do it, like getting into the invisible folders and finding the install packages and installing them one by one, and even then it's not always guaranteed that the installed OS will boot.


The App store requires me to have OS X to purchase and download the installer. An ISO could be acquired and downloaded from any other OS or computer in case a Mac is not readily available. An ISO is much more versatile, unless you don't actually know what versatile means.


Well, if you are installing OS X, that means you have a mac. If that mac has not OS X installed on it, then ok, you have a point. You can't buy Lion without the old OS X. So what you are saying is that in the following situation you can't use App Store app:

You lost your OS X disc which came with your mac and your macs hard drive got somehow erased and no OS X installs are there.

I'd say that's a pretty low probability situation but I give you that in that situation an ISO is better, that is, if you have a PC lying around.


Seems to me you're just trying to defend the Mac App Store here. It's fine for apps. I don't personally like it or use it, but I don't think it's a bad thing. For an OS install though ? Way too confining and restricting. It lacks versatility.



I'm not trying to defend it. I am defending it. Like I said, the App store install App gives a much faster and convenient install process for me. For years I always installed OS X through copying/burning it onto some external drive/DVD-R and then booting from it, and even if you do it from a SATA partition to save on time, it's still more than twice as fast to use the installler App and just install. No burning/copying anymore.

So for me, and the way I install OS X, this way is more than twice as fast.

About versatility, like I said, as long as you have a mac, and I assume you have, just copy the App on a USB stick, and save it somewhere.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 04:24 PM
Is what gets downloaded for the Lion DP a bootable ISO image? I don't think anyone has stated that clearly. They've just said you get an installer.

It doesn't need to be booted. Because when you hit install, it copies couple hundred megabytes to the install partition, and then boots from the install partition.

So by hitting install, you are basically creating a bootable partition.

KnightWRX
May 29, 2011, 04:27 PM
You cannot install from mounted ISO's. Not OS X. It always needs to boot from it. There are some "hack" ways to do it, like getting into the invisible folders and finding the install packages and installing them one by one, and even then it's not always guaranteed that the installed OS will boot.

But you can from a mounted .DMG ? Seems to me that's not a limitation of ISO's per se, but rather of Apple's installer.

Well, if you are installing OS X, that means you have a mac. If that mac has not OS X installed on it, then ok, you have a point. You can't buy Lion without the old OS X. So what you are saying is that in the following situation you can't use App Store app:

You lost your OS X disc which came with your mac and your macs hard drive got somehow erased and no OS X installs are there.

I'd say that's a pretty low probability situation but I give you that in that situation an ISO is better.

Other scenarios :

- You are not running Snow Leopard on said Mac.
- You are not registered on the Mac App Store nor have any desire to.
- Your Mac doesn't have broadband, but your friend with his Windows computer does.

I'm not trying to defend it. I am defending it.

Why ? Do you work for Apple and have you been involved in its creation ?

Look, you're not scoring any points, you're just trying to give me workarounds. I don't want workarounds, I don't want to use the Mac App Store, I don't like the concept. I think it is limiting.

I will buy the DVD since for me, that is the most versatile solution.

roadbloc
May 29, 2011, 04:28 PM
The recovery partition is less than a gigabyte in size. Not a terrible loss.

When you only have a 60GB SSD in a MacBook Air, every GB counts.

Bear
May 29, 2011, 04:29 PM
It's an installer with a .dmg contained inside. If you do "show package contents" on it you can find the dmg which you can burn. (See here (http://holgr.com/blog/2011/02/creating-a-bootable-os-x-10-7-lion-disc/).)Thank you that answers that. And the link answers it very well.

It doesn't need to be booted. Because when you hit install, it copies couple hundred megabytes to the install partition, and then boots from the install partition.

So with hitting install, you are basically creating a bootable partition.

What installer partition? I don't have one on my computer. And where is it going to carve it out of my disk which is already partitioned?

kuwisdelu
May 29, 2011, 04:30 PM
That's 3 anime episodes in 720p.

Or one and a half if you get them from [gg] :p

Maybe one coalgirls episode.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 04:30 PM
Thank you that answers that. And the link answers it very well.



What installer partition? I don't have one on my computer. And where is it going to carve it out of my disk which is already partitioned?

The partition you are installing Lion onto. I assume since you are installing OS X, you'll have a partition ready for installing it.

Cougarcat
May 29, 2011, 04:31 PM
What installer partition? I don't have one on my computer. And where is it going to carve it out of my disk which is already partitioned?

It creates a Recovery Partition when you start the install. (Edit: I misuderstood what iBug2 meant by that.)

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 04:32 PM
When you only have a 60GB SSD in a MacBook Air, every GB counts.

I know it's less than a GB, but it may as well be 200MB's or so. Need to check.

Cougarcat
May 29, 2011, 04:33 PM
I know it's less than a GB, but it may as well be 200MB's or so. Need to check.

It's 800 MB.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 04:34 PM
It's 800 MB.

Thanks, saved me a boot :)

gnasher729
May 29, 2011, 04:34 PM
Breaking a EULA is breaking a contract. You aren't breaking the law.

But the fuzzy legalities of EULAs has been discussed here to death, let's stay on topic.

Well, let's just continue to the point where we get it right: If you don't accept the EULA (as you demonstrate by installing MacOS X on a Hackintosh), then you have no license, therefore no right to make any copies at all, therefore copyright infringement. And since an unmodified copy of MacOS X will not install on any unmodified PC without circumvention of the DRM, that's a DMCA violation.

Bear
May 29, 2011, 04:34 PM
The partition you are installing Lion onto. I assume since you are installing OS X, you'll have a partition ready for installing it.Oh you mean I need a fresh empty partition to install Lion and not do an upgrade?

The post I was commenting on said it copied stuff to your "installer partition". That could be taken as a special Installer partition.

I don't call my bootable OS partition the "installer partition" - I call it the OS or System (or maybe Boot) partition.

Note the post said "installER" and not "install" partition which means different things.

It creates a Recovery Partition when you start the install. (Edit: I misuderstood what iBug2 meant by that.)
The same question applies... what is it going to carve the "Recovery Partition" out of?

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 04:35 PM
Oh you mean I need a fresh empty partition to install Lion and not do an upgrade?

The post I was commenting on said it copied stuff to your "installer partition". That could be taken as a special Installer partition.

I don't call my bootable OS partition the "installer partition" I call it in short form the OS or (maybe boot) partition.

Sorry for misleading. By install partition I just meant the one you are installing onto. I assume it'll work the same way for upgrades, but I haven't upgraded an OS since 1995 or so, can't comment on that. :)

neko girl
May 29, 2011, 04:36 PM
So will one purchase of Lion on Mac App Store be good for 5 computers? OS updates haven't typically worked this way, have they?

roadbloc
May 29, 2011, 04:37 PM
So will one purchase of Lion on Mac App Store be good for 5 computers? OS updates haven't typically worked this way, have they?

No idea. Probably will have to wait until Lion is released to find out. For all we know, there probably isn't a Mac App Store version. It's just a rumour.

Cougarcat
May 29, 2011, 04:38 PM
Oh you mean I need a fresh empty partition to install Lion and not do an upgrade?



No, you can do an upgrade just fine.



The same question applies... what is it going to carve the "Recovery Partition" out of?

Out of whereever you decide to install Lion. It's non-destructible.

No idea. Probably will have to wait until Lion is released to find out. For all we know, there probably isn't a Mac App Store version. It's just a rumour.

At this point, the evidence is overwhelming that there will be an App Store version, to the point where it's likelier that we won't see a DVD version.


So will one purchase of Lion on Mac App Store be good for 5 computers? OS updates haven't typically worked this way, have they?

I'm pretty sure that once you download the installer, you can do anything you want with it. No DRM. But in any case, Mac App Store purchases don't have a 5 computer limit. It's anything tied to your AppleID.

Bear
May 29, 2011, 04:41 PM
No, you can do an upgrade just fine.



Out of whereever you decide to install Lion. It's non-destructible.

You missed the sarcasm. I was pretty sure you could do an upgrade. But it had to do with the wording of comments others had made.

As for the "Recovery Partition" - it's going to carve it out of my bootable OS partition that I'm upgrading? What if there is data throughout the whole filesystem on the partition? Then it can't just shrink the partition without defraging the file system and moving data around. It also needs to be careful to what it does to the partition table on a disk with multiple partitions.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 04:42 PM
So will one purchase of Lion on Mac App Store be good for 5 computers? OS updates haven't typically worked this way, have they?

Yes, so far an OS X install license was only for one computer. But any app distributed through App Store must have unlimited licenses, which is listed in terms of agreement of distributing through App Store.

So I don't think Apple will break their own terms when they put OS X on it. So for the first time Apple will be selling OS X with unlimited licenses, but that is unlimited per one apple ID of course.

Cougarcat
May 29, 2011, 04:44 PM
As for the "Recovery Partition" - it's going to carve it out of my bootable OS partition that I'm upgrading? What if there is data throughout the whole filesystem on the partition? Then it can't just shrink the partition without defraging the file system and moving data around. It also needs to be careful to what it does to the partition table on a disk with multiple partitions.

If you don't have enough space, it'll tell you. I imagine it makes a partition the same way the Boot Camp utility does.

KnightWRX
May 29, 2011, 04:46 PM
Or one and a half if you get them from [gg] :p

Tell me about it. Their releases are good, but god are they huge. :(

charlituna
May 29, 2011, 04:50 PM
I just hope it comes via DVD too. I run a Hackintosh PC, so I think updating to Lion via Mac App Store might break something.

Which is one of the reasons why they might not do a DVD. They are not obligated to avoid breaking tactics like making a hackintosh.

Add also the failure with their $29 Snow Leopard upgrade disk that was supposed to only be used if you had Leopard but worked for everyone. Another reason to not have a disk


I hope there's a disk release so that if I have to restore/clean install I won't have to install Snow Leopard, download 10.6.8 then download and install Lion.


You could always do what I do. When a new OS comes out I have a small partition on my drive that is used when my main volume appears to be corrupt. I erase it, install the new OS, install all my apps, run updates etc. And then I use that copy to make a bootable back up drive in case the whole drive cacks out.

Bear
May 29, 2011, 04:54 PM
Add also the failure with their $29 Snow Leopard upgrade disk that was supposed to only be used if you had Leopard but worked for everyone. Another reason to not have a diskActually they could do a major price difference between the App Store download and purchasing a physical copy of Lion.

Right now the App Store only works on the latest version of 10.6. Imagine someone who had 10.5 want to go to Lion? That would require Apple to keep around physical copies of 10.6 for sale, which I can't see happening. Also having to do an intermediate OS upgrade is not in line with Apple's vision of keeping things easy for the user.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 04:57 PM
Actually they could do a major price difference between the App Store download and purchasing a physical copy of Lion.

Right now the App Store only works on the latest version of 10.6. Imagine someone who had 10.5 want to go to Lion? That would require Apple to keep around physical copies of 10.6 for sale, which I can't see happening. Also having to do an intermediate OS upgrade is not in line with Apple's vision of keeping things easy for the user.

This seems the most reasonable thing to do. I bet they will sell Lion for cheap for SL owners, like they did with SL, so if you have SL, you have App Store, buy it cheap.

If you don't have SL, you need physical disk, which is more expensive. But they have to sell physical disk unless Lion will only be an upgrade for SL users, which would be very inconvenient for some.

neko girl
May 29, 2011, 04:58 PM
But in any case, Mac App Store purchases don't have a 5 computer limit. It's anything tied to your AppleID.
Yeah, I'm not sure where I got the number 5 from. The App Store also is unlimited in terms of iOS devices, is that correct?

I like licensing terms like this. It's how software licenses should be.

charlituna
May 29, 2011, 04:58 PM
Actually they could do a major price difference between the App Store download and purchasing a physical copy of Lion.


Won't work. Folks would just torrent copies of SL or grab the $29 versions from best buy etc before it disappears or the prices go nutty.

Quick question, if I buy a Mac before its release will I get a free upgrade?

If you buy a Mac before it is announced, no. If you buy one between when it is announced and the actual release, they have in the past and they might this time. Then again depending on the price they might not.

roadbloc
May 29, 2011, 04:59 PM
This seems the most reasonable thing to do. I bet they will sell Lion for cheap for SL owners, like they did with SL, so if you have SL, you have App Store, buy it cheap.

If you don't have SL, you need physical disk, which is more expensive. But they have to sell physical disk unless Lion will only be an upgrade for SL users, which would be very inconvenient for some.

I'd still buy a physical disc despite being on Snow Leopard. I prefer a clean install.

charlituna
May 29, 2011, 05:00 PM
This is unavoidable since if you restoring your mac how are you to connect to the internet. They must provide a physical medium to install or restore to the mac.:apple:

You restore using the restore disk that came with the computer and then you add the upgrades.

It would be nice if they sold a disk but there is no MUST in this game.


Even if Lion costs 20 dollars more on a physical medium, I'll still prefer this ...

Try more like $100 more, IF they did it. Because they want folks to use MAS. That's why they undercut the physical disks on the other stuff that is also on MAS and why they will do it with Lion

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 05:02 PM
I'd still buy a physical disc despite being on Snow Leopard. I prefer a clean install.

You can do a clean install if you buy it through App Store.

Cougarcat
May 29, 2011, 05:02 PM
Yeah, I'm not sure where I got the number 5 from. The App Store also is unlimited in terms of iOS devices, is that correct?



Yes. You got 5 from the number of computers DRMed iTunes music can play on.

ranReloaded
May 29, 2011, 05:02 PM
It's a pity the first people who will get the MacDefender patch, are the last ones to need it!

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 05:04 PM
Won't work. Folks would just torrent copies of SL or grab the $29 versions from best buy etc before it disappears or the prices go nutty.




So why not torrent Lion together with a copy of SL? That's nonsense. People could torrent everything when it comes to macs. But somehow Apple keeps selling OS licenses.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 05:05 PM
It's a pity the first people who will get the MacDefender patch, are the last ones to need it!

lol good one :)

Bear
May 29, 2011, 05:08 PM
You restore using the restore disk that came with the computer and then you add the upgrades.

It would be nice if they sold a disk but there is no MUST in this game.So you use your restore disk to:

install 10.6.something
Then you run through the updates to 10.6.latest (so the OS knows about the App Store stuff - because the person needs it for the next step)
Then you get the Lion installer back on your computer (most users will wind up downloading it again because they never made a DVD backup)
Then you upgrade to Lion


This sounds painfully long and not a clean user experience. Right now if the person has a time machine backup, they could just install Lion and then have Time Machine get everything else back in place.

And if you use other methods to back up your computer, you're probably the type that would want to do a clean Lion install and then do clean installations of all the applications you use.

NedBookPro
May 29, 2011, 05:09 PM
I run a Hackintosh PC...


Running a hackintosh or not, are you a total loser to make a statement like this??

Any fool can build a hackintosh. Keep it to yourself.

If you love MacOs so much you should support them by buying the hardware as well.

Bear
May 29, 2011, 05:09 PM
It's a pity the first people who will get the MacDefender patch, are the last ones to need it!But many of the others wont be far behind - they'll just click yes when Software Update comes along and announces it wants to do an update.

Cougarcat
May 29, 2011, 05:10 PM
I hope one of the enhancements of the MAS is academic discounts. Otherwise I'll be forced to get a DVD.

Of course, if Lion is sufficiently cheap, then I expect there won't be an edu discount, just like with SL.

roadbloc
May 29, 2011, 05:12 PM
You can do a clean install if you buy it through App Store.

How do you know this?

Cougarcat
May 29, 2011, 05:13 PM
How do you know this?

The DP installs just fine on blank partitions.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 05:14 PM
So you use your restore disk to:

install 10.6.something
Then you run through the updates to 10.6.latest (so the OS knows about the App Store stuff - because the person needs it for the next step)
Then you get the Lion installer back on your computer (most users will wind up downloading it again because they never made a DVD backup)
Then you upgrade to Lion


This sounds painfully long and not a clean user experience. Right now if the person has a time machine backup, they could just install Lion and then have Time Machine get everything else back in place.

And if you use other methods to back up your computer, you're probably the type that would want to do a clean Lion install and then do clean installations of all the applications you use.

Install SL onto a USB stick and then copy the Lion install app you got from App store. Now that's a bootable SL disk which has the ability to install Lion. You can create a DVD-R or USB like that, and keep it safe somewhere.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 05:15 PM
How do you know this?

Because I have installed the DP's like that and the actual thing should work exactly the same way.

Bear
May 29, 2011, 05:18 PM
Install SL onto a USB stick and then copy the Lion install app you got from App store. Now that's a bootable SL disk which has the ability to install Lion. You can create a DVD-R or USB like that, and keep it safe somewhere.You missed the point of my comment. What I said was in reply to what charlituna said:You restore using the restore disk that came with the computer and then you add the upgrades.

It would be nice if they sold a disk but there is no MUST in this game.

Also, your scenario with the USB stick is not a clean user experience.

I was pointing out why Apple needed to make Lion as something that installs clean. Yes, I know the DP currently available does.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 05:24 PM
You missed the point of my comment. What I said was in reply to what charlituna said:

Also, your scenario with the USB stick is not a clean user experience.

I was pointing out why Apple needed to make Lion as something that installs clean. Yes, I know the DP currently available does.

What do you mean by not a clean user experience? If Apple puts a considerable price difference between the App store version and physical media version, would you pay for it just to save yourself from doing what I described above?

And Lion will install exactly the way the DP does. Apple never changed anything about the install methods of OS's from late beta stage to release. So I don't know what you are afraid about.

Bear
May 29, 2011, 05:32 PM
What do you mean by not a clean user experience? If Apple puts a considerable price difference between the App store version and physical media version, would you pay for it just to save yourself from doing what I described above?

And Lion will install exactly the way the DP does. Apple never changed anything about the install methods of OS's from late beta stage to release. So I don't know what you are afraid about.Well for one thing, I already know from this forum thread that the disk image within the DP can be made in to a bootable installation DVD. (But it took a few pages of comments before someone came out with that information.)

And if for a fresh install I had to start with my system restore disk, yes the physical media would be worth much extra.

I never said I was afraid of anything. I was replying to a suggested scenario by someone pointing out that it was stupid.

There has been a lot of useful information from various people in this thread and a bunch of stupid ideas. Sometimes the stupidity needs to be pointed out.

Oh as for a "clean user experience", the more steps it takes to restore a system from a clean install, the less clean it is, especially if some of those steps takes hours. And the post I was replying to was suggesting a long time consuming scenario.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 05:37 PM
Well for one thing, I already know from this forum thread that the disk image within the DP can be made in to a bootable installation DVD. (But it took a few pages of comments before someone came out with that information.)

And if for a fresh install I had to start with my system restore disk, yes the physical media would be worth much extra.


If you buy the physical media, you'll have to start your mac from the install disc, so what's the difference between starting from the media you bought or starting from the USB stick/DVD-R you created yourself? I'm pretty sure that Apple's price difference will be much more than a blank DVD-R.

And I haven't tested the bootable image thing from within the installer app myself, if it works, certainly better than the way I suggested.

DocNYz
May 29, 2011, 05:38 PM
Yeah, I'm not sure where I got the number 5 from. The App Store also is unlimited in terms of iOS devices, is that correct?

I like licensing terms like this. It's how software licenses should be.

You can share apps with 5 other computers legally, but I'm not sure if there is a limit to number of iOS devices per computer you can share.

Cougarcat
May 29, 2011, 05:39 PM
You can share apps with 5 other computers legally, but I'm not sure if there is a limit to number of iOS devices per computer you can share.

As has been previously stated, you can share mac and iOS apps to an unlimited number of devices, provided they have your AppleID.

KnightWRX
May 29, 2011, 05:40 PM
If you buy the physical media, you'll have to start your mac from the install disc, so what's the difference between starting from the media you bought or starting from the USB stick/DVD-R you created yourself? I'm pretty sure that Apple's price difference will be much more than a blank DVD-R.

Wait, now you're all for Apple letting us create our own USB sticks/DVD-R media ? I don't get your position.

What's wrong with going the extra step then and permitting the purchase of the install image to happen outside the Mac App Store for people who don't use it or want to use it ?

ipedro
May 29, 2011, 05:41 PM
I really want to buy Lion through the App Store as soon as it comes out, but I wonder if we'll be able to burn a Lion DVD, using the downloadable version.
There are occasions when a bootable OS DVD is the only way to format your Mac and I really don't want to install Snow Leopard and then upgrade to Lion every time I decide to format my HDD.

I came here to ask that same question. I wonder if I'd be able to put it on an external hard drive, pen drive, etc...

I hope there's a disk release so that if I have to restore/clean install I won't have to install Snow Leopard, download 10.6.8 then download and install Lion.

I downloaded the dev preview 3 version from the Mac store and I was able to make a bootable DVD out of it, however there was no utility to do that. I had to find the dmg file in the package. Hopefully Apple will provide a better way to do that.

I agree with everyone here that they still need to provide a dvd or a thumb drive for installation or restore. This is unavoidable since if you restoring your mac how are you to connect to the internet. They must provide a physical medium to install or restore to the mac.:apple:

Are you guys sure you're Apple users? Think Different.

I believe that Apple will put permanent code on your Mac that will allow you to download the OS without disks or even a bootable partition. Remember that MacBookAir and probably future MacBookPro's don't have optical drives. One way to do it is to modify the firmware to include a very rudimentary Mac App Store so that if you boot without an OS present, you can log in with your AppleID and the firmware will download Lion and install on a fresh HDD. A 1MB piece of code could do this and can fit on the firmware chip so that even if you swap out the HDD, you can boot without a disk.

Bear
May 29, 2011, 05:45 PM
If you buy the physical media, you'll have to start your mac from the install disc, so what's the difference between starting from the media you bought or starting from the USB stick/DVD-R you created yourself? I'm pretty sure that Apple's price difference will be much more than a blank DVD-R.

And I haven't tested the bootable image thing from within the installer app myself, if it works, certainly better than the way I suggested.

If it's a 10.6 Disk with the Lion installer on it, the difference is being able to start a Lion version of various utilities from the Installation medium for system recovery. Yes, I read the comments that said it was going to create a recovery partition, but even those can get corrupted. I like having recovery utilities on read only media.

Also, after someone suggested it may make the Recovery partition in a similar way that bootcamp makes a partition, I went and read up on the Apple site how you make a bootcamp partition. Well guess what? I can't make a bootcamp partition on my system due to the restrictions. What if it can't make the recovery partition for some reason, then yes I must have a Lion Installation DVD that I can boot from and use the various recovery tools to try and rectify the issue.

EDIT: Bootcamp restricts you to having only one partition on the disk which you want to make a bootcamp partition on.

JoeG4
May 29, 2011, 05:45 PM
Look, I teach CS and Software Engineering outlines development cycles for a reason. I want Lion as much as everyone else but I was a STABLE version that runs all my software. Not a version that is riddled with bugs because Apple is so secret that don't even let developers test their software on the new OS.



Is your last name Schwarz by any chance? :D

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 05:45 PM
Wait, now you're all for Apple letting us create our own USB sticks/DVD-R media ? I don't get your position.

What's wrong with going the extra step then and permitting the purchase of the install image to happen outside the Mac App Store for people who don't use it or want to use it ?

Now? Since the start of this discussion I kept saying that using the thing you download from the App Store, you can create your own installer disk/stick if you choose to.

There's nothing wrong with going the extra step and permitting the purchase it from somewhere other than the App Store. Although that'd mean Apple would have to create a separate store for that, since they don't have any other credit card accepting system than App Store and Developer Connection.

Edit: Forgot iTunes.

wrldwzrd89
May 29, 2011, 05:46 PM
Are you guys sure you're Apple users? Think Different.

I believe that Apple will put permanent code on your Mac that will allow you to download the OS without disks or even a bootable partition. Remember that MacBookAir and probably future MacBookPro's don't have optical drives. One way to do it is to modify the firmware to include a very rudimentary Mac App Store so that if you boot without an OS present, you can log in with your AppleID and the firmware will download Lion and install on a fresh HDD. A 1MB piece of code could do this and can fit on the firmware chip so that even if you swap out the HDD, you can boot without a disk.
Now there's an idea Apple would actually implement, if I was in their shoes I'd consider something like this for future Macs. That would make things SO much easier.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 05:48 PM
If it's a 10.6 Disk with the Lion installer on it, the difference is being able to start a Lion version of various utilities from the Installation medium for system recovery. Yes, I read the comments that said it was going to create a recovery partition, but even those can get corrupted. I like having recovery utilities on read only media.

Also, after someone suggested it may make the Recovery partition in a similar way that bootcamp makes a partition, I went and read up on the Apple site how you make a bootcamp partition. Well guess what? I can't make a bootcamp partition on my system due to the restrictions. What if it can't make the recovery partition for some reason, then yes I must have a Lion Installation DVD that I can boot from and use the various recovery tools to try and rectify the issue.

The recovery partition is always created when you install Lion. So even if the old one was corrupted, it creates a new one for the install. So as long as you have the Lion installer on somewhere read-only, you'll always have a fresh recovery partition. And don't bother yourself about bootcamp stuff. It's "like" that. Not "exactly" that.

About recovery utilities being the most recent, you can just create a Lion disk with Lion installer on it if you like, after purchasing Lion.

tjb1
May 29, 2011, 05:49 PM
Not to rain on anyone's parade, but Lion is nowhere near ready for release.

The betas are flaky at best.

No developers have had time to build against Lion for testing.

If Apple released Lion without going through normal development cycles it would be suicide.

Look, I teach CS and Software Engineering outlines development cycles for a reason. I want Lion as much as everyone else but I was a STABLE version that runs all my software. Not a version that is riddled with bugs because Apple is so secret that don't even let developers test their software on the new OS.

Finally, at the risk of being hated, I sure hope Lion doesn't disappoint. Nothing I seen so far in Lion makes me go "Wow!" like previous full versions have (SL does not count).

Oh, and I too would like a DVD...

Cheers!
-P

No way are we going to have a WWDC release. We're still on Developer Previews, not even a Beta. Going straight to RTM would be nuts.

Plus, I'm betting on some headline features being unveiled at WWDC, or at least some new aspects to the OS. Remember WWDC 2009? We learnt about Grand Central amongst other things and SL came nearly 3 months later (so says Wikipedia!)

What WWDC will give is a Beta incorporating the latest updates to the DP series of builds, plus whatever Apple's been hiding until now. Release to follow.

*Insert lame 'You heard it here first' cliche*

No way will Lion be released at WWDC. It just isn’t ready. I predict a July or August release.

We will get a demo of a few new features and a recap of what we already know. (There hasn’t been an update on Lion since last October.) There will be another DP released on the day of the keynote, then a few more builds after that before the GM in July/August.

Considering WWDC happens in the Spring and Apple said Summer '11, anyone hoping for a WWDC release is living in a fantasy world.

Look at all the Apple employees we have!

Well, let's just continue to the point where we get it right: If you don't accept the EULA (as you demonstrate by installing MacOS X on a Hackintosh), then you have no license, therefore no right to make any copies at all, therefore copyright infringement. And since an unmodified copy of MacOS X will not install on any unmodified PC without circumvention of the DRM, that's a DMCA violation.

Running a hackintosh or not, are you a total loser to make a statement like this??

Any fool can build a hackintosh. Keep it to yourself.

If you love MacOs so much you should support them by buying the hardware as well.

Seriously, get off your high horse. If someone wants to put it on a computer they built and they paid for it, who the hell cares? If you are so law abiding and caring, why dont you go arrest them instead of policing a forum...

Cougarcat
May 29, 2011, 05:50 PM
I

Also, after someone suggested it may make the Recovery partition in a similar way that bootcamp makes a partition, I went and read up on the Apple site how you make a bootcamp partition. Well guess what? I can't make a bootcamp partition on my system due to the restrictions.

What restrictions are those?

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 05:52 PM
Seriously, get off your high horse. If someone wants to put it on a computer they built and they paid for it, who the hell cares? If you are so law abiding and caring, why dont you go arrest them instead of policing a forum...

Nobody cares, but it's hilarious when hackintosh users demand an install system which is convenient for them :))))

Bear
May 29, 2011, 05:52 PM
Are you guys sure you're Apple users? Think Different.

I believe that Apple will put permanent code on your Mac that will allow you to download the OS without disks or even a bootable partition. Remember that MacBookAir and probably future MacBookPro's don't have optical drives. One way to do it is to modify the firmware to include a very rudimentary Mac App Store so that if you boot without an OS present, you can log in with your AppleID and the firmware will download Lion and install on a fresh HDD. A 1MB piece of code could do this and can fit on the firmware chip so that even if you swap out the HDD, you can boot without a disk.Your suggestion is just so laughable. There is not enough room in the firmware memory to do something like that. Just think of everything that's needed in that space. That includes the public keys for the App Store.

Also, it needs to be code that can handle net interruptions and the like. And the amount of time to download an OS from the internet is not trivial.

For people who know what they're doing, have an bootable Lion DVD (or USB stick) makes sense.

For people who don't know what they're doing - they will get a bad hard disk replaced by Apple. And Apple will help them do that recovery at least up to a certain point. And hopefully they have a time machine backup to help them the rest of the way.

wrldwzrd89
May 29, 2011, 05:52 PM
What restrictions are those?
Boot Camp partitions can't be created on a drive that's already partitioned.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 05:54 PM
I believe that Apple will put permanent code on your Mac that will allow you to download the OS without disks or even a bootable partition. Remember that MacBookAir and probably future MacBookPro's don't have optical drives. One way to do it is to modify the firmware to include a very rudimentary Mac App Store so that if you boot without an OS present, you can log in with your AppleID and the firmware will download Lion and install on a fresh HDD. A 1MB piece of code could do this and can fit on the firmware chip so that even if you swap out the HDD, you can boot without a disk.

Now this would be amazing, but I doubt Apple would implement something like that. :(

GekkePrutser
May 29, 2011, 05:56 PM
Are you guys sure you're Apple users? Think Different.

I believe that Apple will put permanent code on your Mac that will allow you to download the OS without disks or even a bootable partition. Remember that MacBookAir and probably future MacBookPro's don't have optical drives. One way to do it is to modify the firmware to include a very rudimentary Mac App Store so that if you boot without an OS present, you can log in with your AppleID and the firmware will download Lion and install on a fresh HDD. A 1MB piece of code could do this and can fit on the firmware chip so that even if you swap out the HDD, you can boot without a disk.

Great idea, except for those users that don't have broadband or have a very small data allowance. I worked off a 3G connection for 6 months, with only 5GB/month usage limit. While it would be a great idea, this really can't be the only way to get an OS update.

Bear
May 29, 2011, 06:06 PM
The recovery partition is always created when you install Lion. So even if the old one was corrupted, it creates a new one for the install. So as long as you have the Lion installer on somewhere read-only, you'll always have a fresh recovery partition. And don't bother yourself about bootcamp stuff. It's "like" that. Not "exactly" that.

About recovery utilities being the most recent, you can just create a Lion disk with Lion installer on it if you like, after purchasing Lion.It has to be a bootable Lion Installation Disk, not Lion with the Lion installer on it. However, as I stated, it was pointed out that you can make a bootable Lion Installer from the disk image embedded in the DP download.

And second I didn't say it would work exactly like the bootcamp partition stuff. I only mentioned the bootcamp stuff because someone suggested it might work like that. I said what if it can't make the recovery partition for some reason? I wouldn't be surprised if only 3 scenarios are supported for the recovery partition to be guaranteed to be made:
Clean Install
Disk with only one partition
Disk with one Mac OS and one bootcamp partition
Or rather I should say, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't test much more than that.

GekkePrutser
May 29, 2011, 06:06 PM
Take a USB stick, or a DVD-R, install OS X on it, and put it on the side. Why do you need Apple to give it to you? You can put a bootable OS X on any HFS+ partition of any kind, you always could.

Sure, I could hack my own boot disk together. But that's not why I got a Mac. I got one so I didn't have to mess around trying to create boot discs that should have come with the OS. If I wanted that I'd use Linux. I'm perfectly capable of doing this but I simply don't want to. I just want to have a working install/recovery disc to hand when things go wrong and I need to get my stuff back in working order. Thinking back on the last year or so I've already used the Snow Leopard DVD this way many times.

Anyway I'd be happy enough with a bootable ISO but I will buy the boxed version if there is one. Even if it was just to put on my shelf next to the other 3 previous releases that I own.

centauratlas
May 29, 2011, 06:12 PM
Exactly. 10.7.x will have the App Store required to install at some point and you will have to go and make a conscious change in order to install outside the App Store.

For Apple, the App Store is going to be a big way to prevent infection - if you can only install from there, it will eliminate a lot of the drive-by infections via social engineering.

I don't know which version of 10.7 will have it, but I think that it will be as soon as they can get most of the large developers on board.

One of the lessons learned was how valuable it is for users to have a trusted source for software i.e. "the App Store."

KnightWRX
May 29, 2011, 06:15 PM
Now? Since the start of this discussion I kept saying that using the thing you download from the App Store, you can create your own installer disk/stick if you choose to.

Hum, no, what you are suggesting is Installing the OS to some kind of medium other than a hard disk. That is not making an installation media, that's making a "live CD".

Now this would be amazing, but I doubt Apple would implement something like that. :(

Yeah, because that hasn't been done on about every platform out there before. Seriously, Solaris' Jumpstart, HP-UX's Ignite, Linux two dozens or so similar systems, OS X's Netboot... oh wait, Apple already does this! :rolleyes:

The firmware doesn't have to contain any Mac App Store code or anything, just enough code to PXE boot and download a boot image from somewhere. This could easily be on the Internet once it's acquired its network configuration from DHCP on your LAN.

Think different... yeah, just like back in 1995 when all this stuff was already old. There was nothing particularly insightful or innovative in that post.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 06:15 PM
It has to be a bootable Lion Installation Disk, not Lion with the Lion installer on it. However, as I stated, it was pointed out that you can make a bootable Lion Installer from the disk image embedded in the DP download.

And second I didn't say it would work exactly like the bootcamp partition stuff. I only mentioned the bootcamp stuff because someone suggested it might work like that. I said what if it can't make the recovery partition for some reason? I wouldn't be surprised if only 3 scenarios are supported for the recovery partition to be guaranteed to be made:
Clean Install
Disk with only one partition
Disk with one Mac OS and one bootcamp partition
Or rather I should say, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't test much more than that.

Since a recovery partition is essential part of Lion install process, it has to be tested for every scenario where a Lion install can occur. I haven't tested all those myself, but I'm sure Apple would.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 06:18 PM
Hum, no, what you are suggesting is Installing the OS to some kind of medium other than a hard disk. That is not making an installation media, that's making a "live CD".

And it does the exact same thing an installation media does. It boots, and it installs.

Anyway, like some others suggested you can create, in your definition, an installation media using the .dmg within the install app of Lion.

KnightWRX
May 29, 2011, 06:21 PM
For Apple, the App Store is going to be a big way to prevent infection - if you can only install from there, it will eliminate a lot of the user base that will move to some other OS that doesn't limit their options.

Fixed that there for you.


And it does the exact same thing an installation media does. It boots, and it installs.

It's convulted.

Anyway, like some others suggested you can create, in your definition, an installation media using the .dmg within the install app of Lion.

Good thing for others, because you weren't so forthcoming with that particular nice tidbit. You seem to be rather fond of the complicated methods. Now all that is left is removing the Mac App Store from the equation and I won't have to buy a physical copy.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 06:24 PM
Good thing for others, because you weren't so forthcoming with that particular nice tidbit. Now all that is left is removing the Mac App Store from the equation and I won't have to buy a physical copy.

I wasn't forthcoming because I didn't know about it until I've read it few minutes ago.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 06:25 PM
It's convulted.


You mean convoluted I suppose.

Yes, but it'd be cheaper than buying the physical media, assuming Apple will charge more for it.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 06:27 PM
Yeah, because that hasn't been done on about every platform out there before. Seriously, Solaris' Jumpstart, HP-UX's Ignite, Linux two dozens or so similar systems, OS X's Netboot... oh wait, Apple already does this! :rolleyes:


Really? Apple already does this? Can my mac download an OS from firmware code? No it can't, so Apple doesn't already do this.

And it was irrelevant whether or not the idea was fresh. I just said Apple wouldn't implement it, since if they wanted to, they would have already.

Cougarcat
May 29, 2011, 06:30 PM
Really? Apple already does this? Can my mac download an OS from firmware code? No it can't, so Apple doesn't already do this.

.

I believe Knight was referring to NetInstall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetBoot).

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 06:32 PM
I believe Knight was referring to NetInstall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetBoot).

I know.

alvindarkness
May 29, 2011, 06:33 PM
You cannot install from mounted ISO's. Not OS X. It always needs to boot from it. There are some "hack" ways to do it, like getting into the invisible folders and finding the install packages and installing them one by one, and even then it's not always guaranteed that the installed OS will boot.

You can install OSX from a mounted ISO. I've done it many times. Without any hacks or trickery. Its just one of the attributes what makes the current OSX installation process so beautiful and flexible.

KnightWRX
May 29, 2011, 06:34 PM
Really? Apple already does this? Can my mac download an OS from firmware code? No it can't, so Apple doesn't already do this.

Yes, it can.

http://www.apple.com/ca/server/macosx/features/client-management.html

Starting up with NetBoot.
The NetBoot service in Mac OS X Server enables multiple Mac systems to boot from a single server-based disk image, instead of from their internal hard drive. This allows you to create a standard configuration and use it on all the desktop systems in a department or classroom — or host multiple images customized for different workgroups. You can even create server configurations and run all your servers from one image. Updating the disk image on the NetBoot server updates all of these systems automatically the next time they restart. In addition, you can copy a directory server configuration to all clients using the same system image. For security-conscious organizations, NetBoot permits Mac computers to boot “disklessly” — without having to read from or write to the computer’s local drive.



Software installations with NetInstall.
NetInstall gives administrators control over the software installed in their organizations. Perfect for upgrading all your Mac clients to a standard or customized installation of Mac OS X Snow Leopard, NetInstall provides an easy method for standardized deployment. By creating server-based disk images with custom configurations, you can easily upgrade or restore Mac clients anywhere on your network — saving time and eliminating the expense of distributing software on DVD or external drives.

So... about that apology. Are you suggesting there's no way Apple couldn't... oh... adapt this to make it boot off/install off the Internet ? Something RedHat and Slackware and countless others were doing back in ... hum... 1995 ?


You can install OSX from a mounted ISO. I've done it many times. Without any hacks or trickery. Its just one of the attributes what makes the current OSX installation process so beautiful and flexible.

Don't you dare say the Mac App Store isn't the most flexible and versatile thing ever! :rolleyes:

baryon
May 29, 2011, 06:36 PM
Except for replacing the disk and doing a fresh install on that new disk. Also, it's possible for a recovery partition to get corrupted.

And how does it make a recovery partition on a disc that is already in use? I know there are ways it could do this, but depending on the state of the filesystem, it could be a lot of gyrations by the software.

Yeah, but I'm sure Apple will have a physical solution to this. I don't know how it creates a partition on a disk that's already in use, but isn't that possible already with Disk Utility? That's how you set up Boot Camp too if I get it correctly.

I think the downloaded Lion installer creates the partition, flags it to automatically boot from it at the next reboot, and reboots the system. At that point, all control is handed over to that partition just like an install DVD...

But what if your hard drive fails or you want to buy a new one, how do you even restore your previous system with Time Machine? You at least need the recovery partition...

What if the Lion installer also creates a recovery partition on your Time Machine disk? Better even: what if it has the option to turn any USB drive (or DVD) into a recovery disk (i.e. like a real install DVD)? But wouldn't that make it super simple for people to pirate OS X? It's already simple, but at least Apple doesn't provide you with a giant button to clone your retail disk yet...

Lots of questions that need answering here!

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 06:36 PM
Yes, it can.

http://www.apple.com/ca/server/macosx/features/client-management.html

So... about that apology.

The idea that poster put forward was about the mac contacting Apple servers, purchase an OS or check if that user with that mac has that OS purchased before, and download that. That's something more than Netboot.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 06:37 PM
You can install OSX from a mounted ISO. I've done it many times. Without any hacks or trickery. Its just one of the attributes what makes the current OSX installation process so beautiful and flexible.

You can't. First of all, when you mount an .iso, the only thing you see is the Install OS X app, which immediately asks you to restart your mac. So the least of all, you need to "hack" into the invisible folders within the iso.

After that you need to find the correct order of installs, since OS X install uses many different packages, which need to be installed in a correct order, otherwise they don't work.

After that you need to somehow run the correct install scripts, which the installer does not run, unless it's used the way it's designed to be used, which is from boot.

So I don't know how you manage to install OS X from mounted images in an easy way.

Bear
May 29, 2011, 06:38 PM
Exactly. 10.7.x will have the App Store required to install at some point and you will have to go and make a conscious change in order to install outside the App Store.

For Apple, the App Store is going to be a big way to prevent infection - if you can only install from there, it will eliminate a lot of the drive-by infections via social engineering.

I don't know which version of 10.7 will have it, but I think that it will be as soon as they can get most of the large developers on board.Taking your points in order:
It better not be very hard to install stuff that didn't come from the App Store or people will go elsewhere. For one thing you won't get most freeware developers to sign up for the App Store. Actually since i don't currently use the Mac App Store - does it allow free applications like the iOS App Store?
How does it eliminate a lot of drive by infections? They could be in the form of browser extensions. And I doubt anyone would want to go through the gyrations needed to put extensions and updates to them through the app store. It also won't prevent certain other things from happening.
They won't get some of the largest developers on board.


In short, if Apple locks down Mac OS X enough for what you suggest to happen, Guess what? It won't be Mac OS X anymore. And a lot of users will be going elsewhere.

KnightWRX
May 29, 2011, 06:39 PM
The idea that poster put forward was about the mac contacting Apple servers, purchase an OS or check if that user with that mac has that OS purchased before, and download that. That's something more than Netboot.

No, it's exactly what netboot is in a sense. Instead of downloading your OS X image from a local server, the firmware option could simply contact Apple's server and download a "install media" and boot that. That media could contain all the code required to purchase Lion, download it and install it.

The only extra information the firmware would require would be an Internet based URL to download the boot media from.

I can already set this up in a way with an Ignite enabled server on the Internet and the proper dbprofile in the EFI shell of my Integrity boxes.

alvindarkness
May 29, 2011, 06:47 PM
You can't. First of all, when you mount an .iso, the only thing you see is the Install OS X app, which immediately asks you to restart your mac. So the least of all, you need to "hack" into the invisible folders within the iso.

After that you need to find the correct order of installs, since OS X install uses many different packages, which need to be installed in a correct order, otherwise they don't work.

After that you need to somehow run the correct install scripts, which the installer does not run, unless it's used the way it's designed to be used, which is from boot.

So I don't know how you manage to install OS X from mounted images in an easy way.

I'm not sure what alien world you are living on. You go into one invisible folder(if you consider this a hack then I have no idea what to say, its done with two clicks in finder and no hacks). Navigate to OSInstall.mpkg and run it. Nothing else to do, it will install exactly the same way it does when run off its own boot media.

Like I said, the current installer is flexible and beautiful, and has been for quite some time.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 06:48 PM
No, it's exactly what netboot is in a sense. Instead of downloading your OS X image from a local server, the firmware option could simply contact Apple's server and download a "install media" and boot that. That media could contain all the code required to purchase Lion, download it and install it.

The only extra information the firmware would require would be an Internet based URL to download the boot media from.

I can already set this up in a way with an Ignite enabled server on the Internet and the proper dbprofile in the EFI shell of my Integrity boxes.

And if Apple sets this up then Apple would have that kind of a service up and running, until then, nobody can purchase and install a Mac OS like that.

dakwar
May 29, 2011, 06:50 PM
I just hope it comes via DVD too. I run a Hackintosh PC, so I think updating to Lion via Mac App Store might break something.

+1 for honesty.

finkmacunix
May 29, 2011, 06:51 PM
Are you guys sure you're Apple users? Think Different.

I believe that Apple will put permanent code on your Mac that will allow you to download the OS without disks or even a bootable partition. Remember that MacBookAir and probably future MacBookPro's don't have optical drives. One way to do it is to modify the firmware to include a very rudimentary Mac App Store so that if you boot without an OS present, you can log in with your AppleID and the firmware will download Lion and install on a fresh HDD. A 1MB piece of code could do this and can fit on the firmware chip so that even if you swap out the HDD, you can boot without a disk.

Beat me to posting that… The recovery partition may be this…

Bear
May 29, 2011, 06:51 PM
No, it's exactly what netboot is in a sense. Instead of downloading your OS X image from a local server, the firmware option could simply contact Apple's server and download a "install media" and boot that. That media could contain all the code required to purchase Lion, download it and install it.You would need room in the firmware memory to handle authentication and handling long slow downloads subject to interruptions. You also have no place to store what you download until the disk is configured.

Netboot typically requires LAN speed connections to function properly. Especially for 4GB or more of OS installation.

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 06:51 PM
I'm not sure what alien world you are living on. You go into one invisible folder(if you consider this a hack then I have no idea what to say, its done with two clicks in finder and no hacks). Navigate to OSInstall.mpkg and run it. Nothing else to do, it will install exactly the same way it does when run off its own boot media.

Like I said, the current installer is flexible and beautiful, and has been for quite some time.

Maybe they did some changes in Snow Leopard. I tried to install Leopard like that once or twice, and after the install ended, the disk did not boot. So the installer was doing something extra when it worked from a booted media compared to a mounted media.

KnightWRX
May 29, 2011, 06:52 PM
And if Apple sets this up then Apple would have that kind of a service up and running, until then, nobody can purchase and install a Mac OS like that.

Sure, but again, the original poster that spawned this sub-thread suggested this as some sort of "Think Different" thing, something truely innovative and wild when it reality, it's been done. And it's been done to death. For the last 15 years.

My initial point, which you've twisted in your bid to do I don't know what, was that there is nothing "Think Different" about booting off the network and installing OSes through the network. It's all been done before and if Apple were to do something like this, they'd just join the ranks of all who did these sort of things before them.

You would need room in the firmware memory to handle authentication and handling long slow downloads subject to interruptions. You also have no place to store what you download until the disk is configured.

Netboot typically requires LAN speed connections to function properly. Especially for 4GB or more of OS installation.

The initial boot image could simply be about 20 MB big. Off broadband, it could work easily. Download would be stored in memory in a RAM disk, like these things usually are (at least in the case of Ignite installs, the EFI shell contacts the servers and loads an image to a RAM disk and boots off of it).

Seriously, guys, nothing that hasn't been solved before.

vansouza
May 29, 2011, 06:55 PM
Boot Camp partitions can't be created on a drive that's already partitioned.

I cant create on on my external boot drive; I must boot with the internal drive.:eek:

iBug2
May 29, 2011, 07:00 PM
Sure, but again, the original poster that spawned this sub-thread suggested this as some sort of "Think Different" thing, something truely innovative and wild when it reality, it's been done. And it's been done to death. For the last 15 years.

My initial point, which you've twisted in your bid to do I don't know what, was that there is nothing "Think Different" about booting off the network and installing OSes through the network. It's all been done before and if Apple were to do something like this, they'd just join the ranks of all who did these sort of things before them.

Well, the think different part was about the credit card purchasing through firmware I suppose or I don't know what that poster had in mind, which I haven't seen elsewhere.

Bear
May 29, 2011, 07:01 PM
My initial point, which you've twisted in your bid to do I don't know what, was that there is nothing "Think Different" about booting off the network and installing OSes through the network. It's all been done before and if Apple were to do something like this, they'd just join the ranks of all who did these sort of things before them.Funny Macs have netboot already, but I wouldn't want to try it at anything other than LAN speeds. Especially for an OS install.
The initial boot image could simply be about 20 MB big. Off broadband, it could work easily. Download would be stored in memory in a RAM disk, like these things usually are (at least in the case of Ignite installs, the EFI shell contacts the servers and loads an image to a RAM disk and boots off of it).

I'll agree the initial image could be 20MB (or even a bit bigger.) and still be semi reasonable. However, Who the heck wants to download a multi GB OS a second or third or fourth time when they can't use their system for anything else.
The initial download of an OS upgrade would be fine as the OS upgrade wouldn't start until the whole thing was downloaded and the system would still be useable during that download. Trying to download several GBs with a system that has no useable OS on it would be annoying, slow, painful and ridiculous.

KnightWRX
May 29, 2011, 07:03 PM
Well, the think different part was about the credit card purchasing through firmware I suppose or I don't know what that poster had in mind, which I haven't seen elsewhere.

How is that think different ? A field to grab CC info, and send it to the server to authorize the download... How is that any different than the already multitude of questions that these netinstall services can already ask you (or not ask you in the case of fully automated installs) ?

I really don't see anything innovative about what that guy was suggesting. We have had the tech around to do that for the last 15 odd years.

Funny Macs have netboot already, but I wouldn't want to try it at anything other than LAN speeds. Especially for an OS install.

Well, considering I've never installed Linux any other way and I've been installing Linux for quite a while now on my personal PC and other machines... ;)

I'll agree the initial image could be 20MB (or even a bit bigger.) and still be semi reasonable. However, Who the heck wants to download a multi GB OS a second or third or fourth time when they can't use their system for anything else.

The initial download of an OS upgrade would be fine as the OS upgrade wouldn't start until the whole thing was downloaded and the system would still be useable. Trying to download several GBs with a system that has no useable OS on it would be annoying, slow, painful and ridiculous.

Seriously, I don't know how many times I've reinstalled my old Pentium and Pentium II systems from scratch using HTTP as the install media from a very small Slackware root/boot disk floppy combo or a RedHat (pre-anaconda) floppy disk. Back in the 90s.

ipedro
May 29, 2011, 07:07 PM
Your suggestion is just so laughable. There is not enough room in the firmware memory to do something like that. Just think of everything that's needed in that space. That includes the public keys for the App Store.

Also, it needs to be code that can handle net interruptions and the like. And the amount of time to download an OS from the internet is not trivial.


You realize that the entire Mac App Store application is just 7MB right? A stripped down version could be very very small.

If anything, the bit of firmware code that I'm suggesting doesn't even have to be an app store at all. It could simply be code that checks your HDD for an OS. If none is present, it will download a larger piece of code to your HDD to create a boot partition. This would contain the Mac App Store which would then allow you to download and install OS X Lion.

As for Lion being too large for you to download, if this is the case, then you won't be buying it on the App Store to begin with. You'll buy a physical copy so you'll never have this problem. That's the end of that argument.

However, for the growing majority of people who've joined the broadband age, the Mac App Store will work just fine for the rare times that they'll ever have to download the full OS. All of us already download massive point updates every several months anyway.

AidenShaw
May 29, 2011, 07:10 PM
I believe that Apple will put permanent code on your Mac that will allow you to download the OS without disks or even a bootable partition. ... One way to do it is to modify the firmware to include a very rudimentary Mac App Store so that if you boot without an OS present, you can log in with your AppleID and the firmware will download Lion and install on a fresh HDD. A 1MB piece of code could do this and can fit on the firmware chip so that even if you swap out the HDD, you can boot without a disk.

That's a good idea, but you'd want the firmware to have a bootstrap loader that would download the actual MAS loader application. You wouldn't want to put much intelligence in the firmware, or you'd have a support nightmare when something has to change in the MAS protocols - and you have to update all of the supported models with new firmware.

The firmware loader could look on the WAN (www.apple.com), at the local network, for a program on optical or USB, ....

The HP MediaSmart Windows Home Server (no optical drive) does this - it looks on the local network for a system serving the WHS installation DVD. MacBook Air has/had a similar feature.

The PXE boot loader on the system already can do much of this work - it's a primitive network boot which only has to load a somewhat smarter loader application.


However, for the growing majority of people who've joined the broadband age...

Safer to use the word "number" instead of "majority" - I doubt that half the people on the planet can download full DVD images without thinking twice.... ;)

ten-oak-druid
May 29, 2011, 07:13 PM
The amount of coverage one of these incidents gets is a testimony to how much more secure the Mac OS environment (and Unix overall) is.

Cougarcat
May 29, 2011, 07:15 PM
It looks like (http://www.ihasapple.com/2011/02/mac-os-x-lion-adds-recovery-partition-support-gallery/) you will be able to reinstall OS X from the recovery partition, which I imagine would be an internet download.

Bear
May 29, 2011, 07:16 PM
Seriously, I don't know how many times I've reinstalled my old Pentium and Pentium II systems from scratch using HTTP as the install media from a very small Slackware root/boot disk floppy combo or a RedHat (pre-anaconda) floppy disk. Back in the 90s.Where was the server that you were installing from? What was the speed of the connection to the server? How long did it take you to do the installation? Was it your only computer?

Okay not knowing the size of the Lion DP download, I am going to use 4GB as my basis for the following based on what I've read about the DP. If Apple can blast the download at the maximum speed my connection can handle, I'm estimating about 4 hours to download Lion. From what someone said, Apple throttles the App Store downloads and it can take a day or so to get the DP.

So that's basically a day (or more) used just to install Lion - then you get to restore your data.

Is the suggestion doable? Yes.
Is it reasonable? NO!

Bear
May 29, 2011, 07:20 PM
It looks like (http://www.ihasapple.com/2011/02/mac-os-x-lion-adds-recovery-partition-support-gallery/) you will be able to reinstall OS X from the recovery partition, which I imagine would be an internet download.Good information. But I doubt it will be an internet download as that would take at least hours for most people if not well over a day.

Also, it does sound like this recovery partition will be noticeably more than a GB as suggested elsewhere - which makes it a significant chunk of the 64GBs of SSD in the low end Air.

However, in my opinion (and others as well apparently) it doesn't eliminate the reason I would want to have a Lion Installation DVD. (As stated in many places in this thread.) If one can easily make it from what I get form the App Store great. If not then I will definitely be buying a physical copy of Lion. I may still buy the physical copy - I haven't used the Mac App Store yet.

iSayuSay
May 29, 2011, 07:21 PM
Can we just purchase OSX Lion via Mac App Store (possibly for cheaper price than retail) .. download it, and then burn/copy it into DVD or thumbdrive and become restore disk in case we need clean install?

Can we do this?

KnightWRX
May 29, 2011, 07:23 PM
Where was the server that you were installing from? What was the speed of the connection to the server? How long did it take you to do the installation? Was it your only computer?

Who knows where it was, some US university I imagine, mirror lists back in those days weren't quite that explicit. The speed of the connection to the server varies greatly, my own broadband cable was something around 5 mbps. Installation always took between 30 and 60 minutes depending on the packages I selected. And yes, it was always on my only computer (I've never actually had multiple computers, always just one).

Okay not knowing the size of the Lion DP download, I am going to use 4GB as my basis for the following based on what I've read about the DP. If Apple can blast the download at the maximum speed my connection can handle, I'm estimating about 4 hours to download Lion. From what someone said, Apple throttles the App Store downloads and it can take a day or so to get the DP.

So that's basically a day (or more) used just to install Lion - then you get to restore your data.

Is the suggestion doable? Yes.
Is it reasonable? NO!

It is for people who have the proper broadband for it. That you don't does not mean that the solution isn't reasonable. Quite the contrary, it's very reasonable. However, like in all things, there should always be options for those who want to do it another way.

I'm all for options. I'd rather Lion be available on DVDs in physical stores, be available in the MAS for people who like that thing, and be available as a download of a simple .ISO image for people who don't like or want the MAS.

LarryC
May 29, 2011, 07:26 PM
Is there going to be any help from Apple if you are still at 10.5.8?

Edit. I am referring to this MacDefender thing.

Cougarcat
May 29, 2011, 07:28 PM
Can we just purchase OSX Lion via Mac App Store (possibly for cheaper price than retail) .. download it, and then burn/copy it into DVD or thumbdrive and become restore disk in case we need clean install?

Can we do this?

Yes (http://holgr.com/blog/2011/02/creating-a-bootable-os-x-10-7-lion-disc/), though it's not obvious or user-friendly at the moment.

Is there going to be any help from Apple if you are still at 10.5.8?

Edit. I am referring to this MacDefender thing.


They should, but probably not because their solution relies on the Malware protection added in 10.6


Good information. But I doubt it will be an internet download as that would take at least hours for most people if not well over a day.

Then what would it be for? The Recovery partition is only 800 MB.

LarryC
May 29, 2011, 07:31 PM
Yes (http://holgr.com/blog/2011/02/creating-a-bootable-os-x-10-7-lion-disc/), though it's not obvious or user-friendly at the moment.



They should, but probably not because their solution relies on the Malware protection added in 10.6

Thank you.

Bear
May 29, 2011, 07:34 PM
Who knows where it was, some US university I imagine, mirror lists back in those days weren't quite that explicit. The speed of the connection to the server varies greatly, my own broadband cable was something around 5 mbps. Installation always took between 30 and 60 minutes depending on the packages I selected. And yes, it was always on my only computer (I've never actually had multiple computers, always just one).I'll concede that 30 to 60 minutes for an install is reasonable.It is for people who have the proper broadband for it. That you don't does not mean that the solution isn't reasonable.What do you consider proper broadband? And what percent of households in the US have that?Quite the contrary, it's very reasonable. However, like in all things, there should always be options for those who want to do it another way.You would need unthrottled downloads from Apple for this to be at all reasonable for even some people.

I would say an hour or or maybe even 2 hours for download and installation of the OS is reasonable when your computer is in need of a fresh install. However several hours to over a day isn't at all reasonable.

Also, Apple has to pay for their bandwidth usage. And they need the pipelines to handle the bandwidth. That's why App Store downloads are throttled.

Yes connecting your computer to the net and saying go install the OS is in theory a nice thing. In the current state that things are in, it's not reasonable. Maybe when we all have inexpensive 100 megabit connections to the net it will be.

ipedro
May 29, 2011, 07:38 PM
That's a good idea, but you'd want the firmware to have a bootstrap loader that would download the actual MAS loader application. You wouldn't want to put much intelligence in the firmware, or you'd have a support nightmare when something has to change in the MAS protocols - and you have to update all of the supported models with new firmware.

The firmware loader could look on the WAN (www.apple.com), at the local network, for a program on optical or USB, ....

The HP MediaSmart Windows Home Server (no optical drive) does this - it looks on the local network for a system serving the WHS installation DVD. MacBook Air has/had a similar feature.

The PXE boot loader on the system already can do much of this work - it's a primitive network boot which only has to load a somewhat smarter loader application.

You've laid it out perfectly.

KnightWRX
May 29, 2011, 07:57 PM
I'll concede that 30 to 60 minutes for an install is reasonable.What do you consider proper broadband? And what percent of households in the US have that?You would need unthrottled downloads from Apple for this to be at all reasonable for even some people.


That's what Akamai is for. ;)


You've laid it out perfectly.

That's because guys like me and Aiden have been doing this stuff for years. It's not new at all. ;)

MattInOz
May 29, 2011, 07:57 PM
Where was the server that you were installing from? What was the speed of the connection to the server? How long did it take you to do the installation? Was it your only computer?



Apple have iStore content caching deals with a lot of ISP's these days.
Which is why the ISP I'm with doesn't meter iTunes or App Store content I download. It also means they would have a machine on their LAN that hosts the boardband connection with the LION installer (even maybe the full NetInstall Server). That would have no trouble saturating your connection at full speed to receive the download as quick as possible.

You wouldn't be relying on the speed of the Internet at large.

ablack774
May 29, 2011, 08:14 PM
I would be quite annoyed if the Mac App Store price was the same as the boxed copies considering how much they would save from not having to print manuals etc and not having the physical media. Oh how i hope it is aggressively priced like snow leopard was.. however i doubt that somehow.

Brien
May 29, 2011, 08:17 PM
Seems to me, with FCX and Lion coming via the App Store, that Apple intends on migrating to an App Store only distribution scheme for all software - e.g., nothing sold at retail stores or online, just everything via the App Store. Optical drives RIP?

WiiDSmoker
May 29, 2011, 08:17 PM
Apple have iStore content caching deals with a lot of ISP's these days.
Which is why the ISP I'm with doesn't meter iTunes or App Store content I download.

Where can I read more about this?

kuebby
May 29, 2011, 08:46 PM
No way I'm buying Lion on anything but DVD (or maybe a thumbdrive)...

Call me apocalyptic, but someday, something, is going to hit the oscillating motor in my ceiling, and that day will be much more manageable if I have a physical copy of my OS

jonnysods
May 29, 2011, 08:51 PM
Any driver or graphics updates? Always on the prowl for more of those.

MattInOz
May 29, 2011, 08:58 PM
Where can I read more about this?

Maybe it just the Australian situation but this story is a reasonable look at the situation here. A quick google and all but one of the major ISP's in OZ have iTunes in their "freezone". Admittedly the Australian situation is a little different as all Overseas content has to come down very narrow pipes, so our internet caps have generally been about access to those pipes.

everyone-needs-to-calm-down-about-internet-caps/ (http://www.inquisitr.com/2953/everyone-needs-to-calm-down-about-internet-caps/)

caspersoong
May 29, 2011, 09:08 PM
Really nice of Apple. Thinking of the MBA.

munkery
May 29, 2011, 09:11 PM
Thats all well and good and I'ma let you finish, but that doesn't stop the worldwide market share from being 4% at the moment.

True, global market share is low. Is it 4%; I think it is a little over 5% now. Just pointing out that trends tend to originate in certain markets then transition to being global. iDevices are selling well globally so that may help drive the trend as well.

The "worldwide market share" includes places like India and China, where Windows dominates... but doesn't actually sell any copies of Windows.

I never thought about how piracy impacts Mac OS X market share. Obviously, building a Hackintosh is possible but not really a motive of most that resort to piracy.

The impact of piracy on Microsoft is pretty unreal. http://www.geek.com/articles/news/microsoft-profit-in-china-takes-a-beating-due-to-massive-piracy-20110527/

This must be a limiting factor in the growth of Mac market share given that Mac OS X piracy is less prevalent. Piracy is less relevant for Apple's profit margins as well given that more revenue comes from the sale of hardware.

I wonder how much piracy (less developed nations) and the growth of Mac market share (more developed nations) is affecting Microsoft; not that it is enough of a chunk to matter. Is piracy driving MS's move into the ad revenue game with Bing and teaming up with Baidu?

I think in markets, such as China, India and Brazil, that users looking for an alternative to Windows at the moment will switch to Linux rather than OS X for many obvious reasons. Does hardware coming preinstalled with Linux in these regions drive Windows piracy?

It is good to see Linux evolving as an alternative in many government settings given that it has greater compatibility with OS X in terms of porting software and open source. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_adoption#Government

AidenShaw
May 29, 2011, 09:22 PM
Apple have iStore content caching deals with a lot of ISP's these days.

As KnightWRX said:

That's what Akamai is for. ;)

Akamai puts caching servers at the ISPs - your ISP probably has a box that Akamai maintains, and that reduces any upstream bandwidth at your ISP's site.


You wouldn't be relying on the speed of the Internet at large.

Most of the time the bandwidth problem isn't on the Internet, but on the "last mile" - the connection from your local ISP hub to your house.


Where can I read more about this?

Just Yahoo! for "akamai".

damson34
May 29, 2011, 09:44 PM
Once again, the developer builds are not current builds. They only release a new developer build when something changes that affects developers. The internal builds are far ahead of what we have now.

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but Lion is nowhere near ready for release.

The betas are flaky at best.

No developers have had time to build against Lion for testing.

If Apple released Lion without going through normal development cycles it would be suicide.

Look, I teach CS and Software Engineering outlines development cycles for a reason. I want Lion as much as everyone else but I was a STABLE version that runs all my software. Not a version that is riddled with bugs because Apple is so secret that don't even let developers test their software on the new OS.

Finally, at the risk of being hated, I sure hope Lion doesn't disappoint. Nothing I seen so far in Lion makes me go "Wow!" like previous full versions have (SL does not count).

Oh, and I too would like a DVD...

Cheers!
-P

Yamcha
May 29, 2011, 09:48 PM
I don't think piracy is a concern if OSX Lion will cost the same as Snow Leopard.. I know tons of people who've actually bought Snow Leopard instead of downloading it..

kuebby
May 29, 2011, 09:56 PM
I don't think piracy is a concern if OSX Lion will cost the same as Snow Leopard.. I know tons of people who've actually bought Snow Leopard instead of downloading it..

Agreed. $29 is definitely a sweet spot. I'm pretty sure Leopard cost $29 from my university's bookstore but having the retail price for Snow Leopard be $29 was a good move by Apple. I'd even pay more (say... $39) to get Lion on DVD, while a cheaper version was offered via the Mac App Store (at say, $29).

damson34
May 29, 2011, 09:58 PM
Heres what happens when you install Lion. It creates a partition on your mac for recovery. So when you click the installer in snow leopard, before you ever reboot that partition is there. So on the reboot you boot up to that recovery partition. It's just like having a cd in. You can then still choose disk utility and wipe the snow leopard partition if you want or just upgrade.

Well for one thing, I already know from this forum thread that the disk image within the DP can be made in to a bootable installation DVD. (But it took a few pages of comments before someone came out with that information.)

And if for a fresh install I had to start with my system restore disk, yes the physical media would be worth much extra.

I never said I was afraid of anything. I was replying to a suggested scenario by someone pointing out that it was stupid.

There has been a lot of useful information from various people in this thread and a bunch of stupid ideas. Sometimes the stupidity needs to be pointed out.

Oh as for a "clean user experience", the more steps it takes to restore a system from a clean install, the less clean it is, especially if some of those steps takes hours. And the post I was replying to was suggesting a long time consuming scenario.

Digitalclips
May 29, 2011, 10:19 PM
Heres what happens when you install Lion. It creates a partition on your mac for recovery. So when you click the installer in snow leopard, before you ever reboot that partition is there. So on the reboot you boot up to that recovery partition. It's just like having a cd in. You can then still choose disk utility and wipe the snow leopard partition if you want or just upgrade.

What is interesting is the Lion recovery 'partition' isn't a normal partition. I can't see it from SL's Disk Utility when booted into my 10.6.7 partition on the same drive yet I can from Lion's Disk Utility when booted into 10.7.

MattInOz
May 29, 2011, 10:27 PM
As KnightWRX said:

Akamai puts caching servers at the ISPs - your ISP probably has a box that Akamai maintains, and that reduces any upstream bandwidth at your ISP's site.

Most of the time the bandwidth problem isn't on the Internet, but on the "last mile" - the connection from your local ISP hub to your house.

Just Yahoo! for "akamai".

He did indeed, he said while I typing. Then I read what he wrote after posting and thought "that makes a lot of sense" indeed what you say makes more sense.

Yes the last mile is going to be the issue if the data isn't to far away.
Move the data across an ocean to say Hawaii or Australia and the trip in the middle starts to be the issue. So akamai have made a business out not relying so much on those long under water/ground runs. It's enough of an issue that I notice a difference in speed between popular media and more obscure or alternative media.

maclaptop
May 29, 2011, 10:52 PM
Not to rain on anyone's parade, but Lion is nowhere near ready for release.

The betas are flaky at best.

No developers have had time to build against Lion for testing.

If Apple released Lion without going through normal development cycles it would be suicide.

Look, I teach CS and Software Engineering outlines development cycles for a reason. I want Lion as much as everyone else but I was a STABLE version that runs all my software. Not a version that is riddled with bugs because Apple is so secret that don't even let developers test their software on the new OS.

Finally, at the risk of being hated, I sure hope Lion doesn't disappoint. Nothing I seen so far in Lion makes me go "Wow!" like previous full versions have (SL does not count).

Oh, and I too would like a DVD...

Cheers!
-P

I share your thoughts exactly

The Apple of just a few years back would never release it early. However I have lost my confidence in them, based on their cavalier attitude and questionable actions since then.

For example, the Pro Apple Wall St Journal even admitted that Jobs was told six months before he released iPhone 4, that there was a serious problem with the antenna.

However the much bigger problem, was the fact that the style and location of said antenna was Jobs idea and he is never wrong. Just ask his worshipers. Ship it, he barked, and ship it they did.

Then to show off his power and supreme ego, he talked down to all that bought one saying the now famous "You're holding it wrong" comment.

At that moment while holding my iP4 in hand, the one that DID have problems, my respect for Apple & years of trust vanished.

I still enjoy my Apple computers and all, but now I approach my purchases differently and very carefully. I no longer tell people who ask for guidance, to buy from them. I'm not willing to take what has now become a huge risk.

Cougarcat
May 29, 2011, 11:00 PM
For example, the Pro Apple Wall St Journal even admitted that Jobs was told six months before he released iPhone 4, that there was a serious problem with the antenna.

However the much bigger problem, was the fact that the style and location of said antenna was Jobs idea and he is never wrong. Just ask his worshipers. Ship it, he barked, and ship it they did.



According to Jobs, that story is "a total crock." (http://daringfireball.net/linked/2010/07/16/bloomberg-crock)

MidiMonk
May 29, 2011, 11:51 PM
No physical media, no update from me.I have no desire to wait for a huge download on clogged servers.

munkees
May 29, 2011, 11:53 PM
^ how big will it be, Xcode is already 4GB, it takes awhile. I also would want a USB version so I can install on my MBA's.

I had my first run in from MacDefender last night, some how it was linked from a twitter feed. Anyhow, it got nuked, I ended up force quitting Safari so I would not click on anything, and delete what it downloaded from downloads. Glad :apple: is addressing this malware. My Father in Law fell for the whole story in his email, and now is infected, Apple gave him a link to the support page for removal, he is on 10.4.11.

Cougarcat
May 30, 2011, 12:04 AM
No physical media, no update from me.I have no desire to wait for a huge download on clogged servers.

Unless your internet is really really terrible, it'll be faster than shipping. Just let it sit overnight if you have to.


^ how big will it be, Xcode is already 4GB, it takes awhile. I also would want a USB version so I can install on my MBA's.


~3.5 GB. You can restore it to a USB drive.

Swift
May 30, 2011, 12:10 AM
I really want to buy Lion through the App Store as soon as it comes out, but I wonder if we'll be able to burn a Lion DVD, using the downloadable version.
There are occasions when a bootable OS DVD is the only way to format your Mac and I really don't want to install Snow Leopard and then upgrade to Lion every time I decide to format my HDD.

I'm sure it will be a dmg. You have to burn a DVD and have it at hand for an emergency. A Mac App from the store installs via a script. A system disk, or a disk restore, would run from a script and ask if you want a DVD of it.

AidenShaw
May 30, 2011, 12:16 AM
~3.5 GB. You can restore it to a USB drive.

Of course, since 3 TB USB drives are only $129.99 at Newegg today....

Cougarcat
May 30, 2011, 12:24 AM
Of course, since 3 TB USB drives are only $129.99 at Newegg today....

What? I was aleviating munkees' fears that they wouldn't be able to get Lion onto a usb drive. What does this have to do with 3 TB drives from newegg? :confused:

KingKuei
May 30, 2011, 12:38 AM
Quick question, if I buy a Mac before its release will I get a free upgrade?

Two possibilities:

1) You have to buy it AFTER the final Lion release is announced to have a chance to get a free upgrade to Lion upon its release. This meets Apple's requirements from an accounting perspective; they cannot offer you a "free" upgrade unless the final shipping version was already announced prior to your purchase of the Mac.

2) You buy it BEFORE they announce Lion and you MAY qualify for a deeply discounted upgrade like $29 vs full disc at $119 or something.

AidenShaw
May 30, 2011, 12:42 AM
What? I was aleviating munkees' fears that they wouldn't be able to get Lion onto a usb drive. What does this have to do with 3 TB drives from newegg? :confused:

Munkee's question was "how big will it be?" - therefore the fact that 3 TB drives are cheap is relevant.

It will fit.

Cougarcat
May 30, 2011, 12:48 AM
Munkee's question was "how big will it be?" - therefore the fact that 3 TB drives are cheap is relevant.

It will fit.

Ah. I think he was concerned with download time. Obviously it'll fit. ;)


Two possibilities:

1) You have to buy it AFTER the final Lion release is announced to have a chance to get a free upgrade to Lion upon its release. This meets Apple's requirements from an accounting perspective; they cannot offer you a "free" upgrade unless the final shipping version was already announced prior to your purchase of the Mac.

2) You buy it BEFORE they announce Lion and you MAY qualify for a deeply discounted upgrade like $29 vs full disc at $119 or something.

They've never done #2 before, and they only sell full disks, not upgrade disks. #1 is likely, though Apple charges $10 for shipping. Hopefully they'll give people a free redeem code for the App Store instead.

nofunsir
May 30, 2011, 12:54 AM
Just removed Mac Protector from my grandma's mac. It had the same icons in it's Resource folder as Mac Defender.

I have its installers zipped if anyone wants to dissect them.

AidenShaw
May 30, 2011, 12:56 AM
Ah. I think he was concerned with download time. Obviously it'll fit. ;)

My apologies for the misinterpretation.

Žalgiris
May 30, 2011, 01:35 AM
What is interesting is the Lion recovery 'partition' isn't a normal partition. I can't see it from SL's Disk Utility when booted into my 10.6.7 partition on the same drive yet I can from Lion's Disk Utility when booted into 10.7.

It's hidden. There is an option for Disk utility to show hidden partitions.

oiuh151
May 30, 2011, 01:41 AM
What does MacDefender do if you install it?

Žalgiris
May 30, 2011, 01:46 AM
What does MacDefender do if you install it?

Tries to force you to pay for "removing malware" from your Mac.

oiuh151
May 30, 2011, 01:46 AM
Tries to force you to pay for "removing malware" from your Mac.So it doesn't actually harm your Mac in any way?

Žalgiris
May 30, 2011, 01:52 AM
So it doesn't actually harm your Mac in any way?

As far as i can tell - no.

oiuh151
May 30, 2011, 01:53 AM
As far as i can tell - no.

Then why is everyone making such a big deal out of it? :confused:

Žalgiris
May 30, 2011, 01:56 AM
Then why is everyone making such a big deal out of it? :confused:

Let's see:

Some are just old and boring trolls.
Haters gonna hate.
For clicks (ads FTW).
Panic.
Lack of common sense.
Education.
Panic.
Lack of education.
Panic.

AppleScruff1
May 30, 2011, 01:56 AM
Then why is everyone making such a big deal out of it? :confused:

Something to complain about? :D

the8thark
May 30, 2011, 02:17 AM
I just hope it comes via DVD too. I run a Hackintosh PC, so I think updating to Lion via Mac App Store might break something.
+1 for honesty.
I agree. I wish all criminals were this honest.

KnightWRX
May 30, 2011, 05:15 AM
I agree. I wish all criminals were this honest.

Breaking a EULA and the type of copyright infringement it results in is not a criminal offense. Criminal copyright infringement only applies to cases that derive monetary profit from the infringement.

dyn
May 30, 2011, 05:30 AM
Akamai puts caching servers at the ISPs - your ISP probably has a box that Akamai maintains, and that reduces any upstream bandwidth at your ISP's site.

They wish! There is no such thing as that. Akamai has it's own infrastructure as well as any ISP. Akamai obviously has its servers hosted around the globe but that is a different story. ISPs have to pay for data so it is entirely in their own interest to use things like caching servers. That is network management where they reduce the amount of traffic and thus the amount of money they have to pay.


Most of the time the bandwidth problem isn't on the Internet, but on the "last mile" - the connection from your local ISP hub to your house.

Don't forget the infrastructure in the house. There are quite a lot of people with old modems/routers that are far too slow for the current highspeed internetconnections in a lot of countries. Computers/devices also contribute to the overall speed (if the machine/device is slow....).

KnightWRX
May 30, 2011, 05:36 AM
Computers/devices also contribute to the overall speed (if the machine/device is slow....).

My Pentium 100 could saturate a 100 mbps link... No, really, Computers have not been a network bottleneck in quite a long time as far as Internet bandwidth goes.

johnalan
May 30, 2011, 05:58 AM
Hi All,

Just wanted to chime in on this, I don't know if this has been suggested already but going forward with new Mac hardware, I have an idea to avoid the 'I don't want to reinstall snow leopard and then upgrade' problem.

I totally agree that you want a hard copy, say one you can burn to USB so even the MBA's can use it.

But lets say you have a completely new SSD disk you are putting in your machine, You don't want to have to have another machine around to create the bootable USB key/DVD.

An elegant solution would be if EVERY Mac had the ability to boot into a really really basic version of OSX (say like the GUI that loads when you boot off the current OS X disk.

This basic OS X could be stored on a small ROM chip inside each Mac.

All it would need would be a copy of Disk Utility, and a version of the Mac App Store (which only showed available OS's and not apps.)


That way whenever you are upgrading a harddisk or need to reinstall the OS, All you'd need is an Internet connection. I think this would be soooo handy.


Imagine no need for physical media or usb keys or even any effort at all! Just hold down a key on startup, boot into your OS X Utility version that's always safe on the ROM chip, and bang in an ethernet cable and Login to the MAS and download your OS.


What you guys think?

ratzzo
May 30, 2011, 06:11 AM
While it is good that Apple offers removal for malware, well, lets just say I don't see Microsoft offering fixes for every MS Xware out there. Meaning, if OS X gets more security threats I highly doubt they will be addressed as they are being.

Azathoth
May 30, 2011, 06:14 AM
Let's see:

Some are just old and boring trolls.
Haters gonna hate.
For clicks (ads FTW).
Panic.
Lack of common sense.
Education.
Panic.
Lack of education.
Panic.

*this* version might not have a malicious payload (although apparently it autonavigates to pornographic websites) - the next version may well do.

Oh, and it requests the users credit card information.

So yeah, it *is* harmful. And a lot of innocent users (e.g. my mother) could easily be fooled by it, especially since the meme is "malware is a Windows PC problem", so users are told, in commercials by Apple, that they shouldn't worry about malware.

I'd like to try and educate my mother, but, life is too short...

KnightWRX
May 30, 2011, 06:18 AM
What you guys think?

I think we've been discussing this for the last 3 pages.

Consensus : So doable it's been done before. Even moreso, already supported on LAN configurations using OS X Server's NetInstall/NetBoot features.

Thunderhawks
May 30, 2011, 06:44 AM
Too much ANGST in this thread about how things will be done.

Don't think Apple will overlook the fact that sometimes we don't have internet connections to reformat our Macs.

xstex
May 30, 2011, 07:01 AM
Really looking forward to Lion.

silentnite
May 30, 2011, 07:04 AM
I have a friend (neighbor) who has the Mac-defender in his Macbook but he still hasn't figure out what it's doing. Everything boots normally and all of his files appear to be intact. What I'm starting to think, this was just a scare or perhaps a test run for something worse to follow.

Winni
May 30, 2011, 07:06 AM
I really want to buy Lion through the App Store as soon as it comes out, but I wonder if we'll be able to burn a Lion DVD, using the downloadable version.
There are occasions when a bootable OS DVD is the only way to format your Mac and I really don't want to install Snow Leopard and then upgrade to Lion every time I decide to format my HDD.

I'm pretty sure that you will be able to burn a DVD -and- prepare a bootable USB stick with the AppStore version. It wouldn't make sense to sell an operating system without giving a recovery option.

Disclaimer: Okay, this is Apple we're talking about, so, of course, they could be nuts enough to only give the user the option to upgrade an already installed OS. Which would be a complete showstopper for me and I wouldn't buy the downloadable version.

johnalan
May 30, 2011, 07:06 AM
If people are feeling that their internet connections wont support this method of delivery, then Apple better keep optical disc drives in their machines!

OllyW
May 30, 2011, 07:11 AM
If people are feeling that their internet connections wont support this method of delivery, then Apple better keep optical disc drives in their machines!

Even if they drop the internal optical dives from future Macs you can still use external drives or USB memory sticks to install the OS. It only becomes a problem if the Mac App Store becomes the only way to upgrade to a new OS.

Winni
May 30, 2011, 07:13 AM
Hi All,

Just wanted to chime in on this, I don't know if this has been suggested already but going forward with new Mac hardware, I have an idea to avoid the 'I don't want to reinstall snow leopard and then upgrade' problem.

I totally agree that you want a hard copy, say one you can burn to USB so even the MBA's can use it.

But lets say you have a completely new SSD disk you are putting in your machine, You don't want to have to have another machine around to create the bootable USB key/DVD.

An elegant solution would be if EVERY Mac had the ability to boot into a really really basic version of OSX (say like the GUI that loads when you boot off the current OS X disk.

This basic OS X could be stored on a small ROM chip inside each Mac.

All it would need would be a copy of Disk Utility, and a version of the Mac App Store (which only showed available OS's and not apps.)


That way whenever you are upgrading a harddisk or need to reinstall the OS, All you'd need is an Internet connection. I think this would be soooo handy.


Imagine no need for physical media or usb keys or even any effort at all! Just hold down a key on startup, boot into your OS X Utility version that's always safe on the ROM chip, and bang in an ethernet cable and Login to the MAS and download your OS.


What you guys think?

We've been doing this in the Windows and Linux world for more than a decade now. OS installations over the network/Internet are nothing new. But I'm pretty sure that Apple would sell it as a "revolutionary/awesome/magical/beautiful/huge new" feature, and I'm also pretty sure that most Mac buyers would eventually say that the idea of the Internet was stolen from Apple.

Žalgiris
May 30, 2011, 07:18 AM
It only becomes a problem if the Mac App Store becomes the only way to upgrade to a new OS.

You mean if App Store version is not a bootable disk image or if there is no option to make one.