How the Private Became Political

[IJ Reilly]

Another reminder (assuming we needed one) about who is really in charge.

CRAWFORD, Texas — Frenetic negotiations among congressional leaders, a special weekend session and a hastily arranged trip back to Washington by the president in the Terri Schiavo right-to-die case elevated a tragic personal issue into an extraordinary political drama.

But at bottom, the flurry of activity reflected an everyday fact of political life: When a powerful constituency cares passionately about something, all politicians — whether Republicans or Democrats — yearn to respond.

In this instance, the constituency was evangelical Christian conservatives. They played a pivotal role in reelecting President Bush and swelling GOP majorities in both houses of Congress in November, and they have become a voting bloc as essential to the GOP's new dominance as labor unions and minorities once were to the Democratic Party.

And the pressure on Bush and Republican congressional leaders to respond in the Schiavo case was all the greater because, during the first three months of the president's second term, social conservatives had become increasingly unhappy with what they saw as neglect of their concerns, such as banning same-sex marriage, in favor of issues pushed by corporations: changing bankruptcy laws, curbing medical malpractice awards and opening the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to oil and gas drilling.

"Our issues aren't on the front burner every day, but when they are on the front burner it's on high," said Louis P. Sheldon, chairman of the Traditional Values Coalition. "This proves that Terri Schiavo was a front-burner issue."

The very fact that the case of one woman in Florida and the family quarrel over her fate have reached the halls of Congress and captured the attention of the president reflects the power of the evangelical base in setting an agenda, said Richard Cizik, vice president of the National Assn. of Evangelicals. The Schiavo case, he said, showed that social conservatives were as consumed with the end of life as they were with life in the womb — and that the politicians were following their lead.

Republicans' desire to respond to the Schiavo case in a highly visible way was underscored Saturday night when the White House unexpectedly announced that Bush, vacationing at his ranch near Crawford, Texas, would fly back to Washington to sign the emergency legislation aiding Schiavo's parents in their effort to keep her alive.

...

On Friday, the pressure on congressional Republicans escalated sharply when a state judge ordered the feeding tube removed and a federal judge ruled that Schiavo's parents had no legal standing in the federal court system.

The legislation that is expected to win emergency approval over the weekend would give the parents standing in federal court, though it would not compel a federal judge to take up the case.

As a backdrop to the dramatic weekend deliberations were the political implications for several key players who could not afford to ignore the desires of the party base.

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-Tenn.) is considered a candidate for his party's presidential nomination in 2008. Frist, a physician, pushed his support for action to the point of declaring — on the basis of television footage — that he thought Schiavo might recover.

Gov. Bush, who has said he would not run for president in 2008, is still considered a potential contender and has won accolades from evangelical leaders for his role in the case. He discussed the matter with his brother on Friday, and the president's decision to move aggressively could further solidify the governor's position with the party's religious base.

For House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, the case offered an opportunity to placate a key constituency and divert attention from his continuing ethics problems. DeLay had been avoiding attention much of last week but moved to the forefront of televised appearances Friday and Saturday.

He heralded the negotiations that led to a bipartisan agreement to let the special legislation come before the House and Senate on an emergency basis. And he took the opportunity to personally take on Schiavo's husband.

But the overriding reason for the flurry of activity — activity that could have little practical effect unless the federal courts agree to intervene — was the now-established importance of the voters who were demanding action.

Schiavo's case first entered the political arena in 2003, when Gov. Bush, besieged by petitions and e-mails from antiabortion activists, helped push through a state law to prevent doctors from removing Schiavo's feeding tube. The law was overturned.

When other legal options seemed to run out — and the Friday deadline for removing the feeding tube approached — the governor contacted the state's new Republican senator, Mel Martinez, to push the matter with Congress.

Social conservatives began lobbying the issue in Washington, but some exploded in anger late Friday when the House and Senate failed to reach an immediate agreement and seemed prepared to let the matter drop rather than disrupt their plans for the fast-approaching Easter recess. The message, as some conservatives saw it, was that GOP leaders were more interested in their personal political goals than the moral imperative of saving Schiavo's life.

"There are a lot of folks who helped create Republican majorities that were pretty disgusted with what went down, and the inescapable reality was that while they were dithering the tube got pulled," said Kenneth L. Connor, former president of the conservative Family Research Council and the lawyer who represented Gov. Bush in his efforts to keep Schiavo alive.

"That could have been avoided. The people who created this majority are interested in product, not process."

The maneuvering was followed over the weekend by President Bush in Texas.

The president considered addressing the case for the first time on Friday, when, by coincidence, he visited Florida at the same time doctors were removing the feeding tube, said Rep. Tom Feeney (R-Fla.), who spoke briefly about the case with the president aboard Air Force One.

"The answer was not to do it, since the situation was so fluid with the House and the Senate and the legal proceedings," Feeney said.

Feeney, who backs the measure, said the matter carries some political risk for Republicans but that televised images in the coming days of a dehydrated and starving Schiavo might spark "an epiphany for a lot of Americans who are undecided or not paying attention to these issues."

Evangelical leader Cizik predicted that the Schiavo case would be among the first of many to present similar issues.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-politics20mar20,1,6641318.story

[Blue Velvet]

All the christian kids that were laughed at in school are having the last laugh now as they bully their way to power at all levels of the US political body.

All the hand-wringing in the world is not going to stop them either.

[redeye be]

sad,

this has been all over the news here in belgium this weekend.

Our euthanasia law is a good thing, although not perfect. Things like this are not possible (any more).
It makes me sick that they are using this to profilate themselves.

[themadchemist]

All the christian kids that were laughed at in school are having the last laugh now as they bully their way to power at all levels of the US political body.

All the hand-wringing in the world is not going to stop them either.

A good chunk of the folks pulling the strings now are the ones who were dumping the nerds in trash cans 40 years ago...

This isn't revenge of the nerds, it's re-revenge of the bullies on a global scale.

[IJ Reilly]

This is one of the most cynical abuses of federal power I have ever witnessed. To make matters worse, the political opposition has hardly been heard from at all. I suppose they must think they've been outflanked on a compassion issue, when just the opposite is true. The argument against this is clear, obvious and compelling, but few seem have the guts required to make it.

[zimv20]

Frist, a physician, pushed his support for action to the point of declaring — on the basis of television footage — that he thought Schiavo might recover.

good god, how friggin' irresponsible is that?

[Thomas Veil]

This is absolutely disgusting: violating the wishes of a helpless person in order to score political points. How sick. :mad:

FWIW, shortly after the GOP took these actions, ABC News' poll showed the public was against the action 89%-8%. Among "evangelical voters", the percentages were almost as high. This is a very unpopular move, and I hope it comes back to bite them in the ***.

[IJ Reilly]

good god, how friggin' irresponsible is that?

I suppose we can count ourselves fortunate that Frist is practicing medicine in the Senate instead of on real, live patients.

Oh, but it gets worse (doesn't it always?). The newsbite flew past me pretty quickly on TV the other evening, but I'm pretty sure it was Tom DeLay who was getting some face time intoning about how unplugging a persistently vegetative person from life support "had never happened before."

Yeah, right. Only like hundreds of times a year.

[IJ Reilly]

The family's troubles have devolved into a bitter public battle, with some conservative Republicans, including Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, and right-to-life organizations taking up the Schindlers' cause.

ABC News obtained talking points circulated among Senate Republicans explaining why they should vote to intervene in the Schiavo case. Among them, that it is an important moral issue and the "pro-life base will be excited," and that it is a "great political issue -- this is a tough issue for Democrats."

When asked about these talking points on "Good Morning America," DeLay said, "I don't know where those talking points come from, and I think they're disgusting."

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/print?id=595905

[blackfox]

you know, there is much I might comment on, from the use of "activist" courts by the GOP when it suits them, to the manipulation of procedure to a certain end (makes their stance on filibusters a tad ironic)...but one thing that struck me is not particularily political. Namely:

In a case like this, with a woman in a vegetative state, is there no more humane way to go than merely unhooking the feeding tube and letting her starve to death? I mean, she may not actually suffer from this, but it struck me as being much more humane to give her a quick end. i apologize if I am not understanding something here. I might advocate a lethal injection or some such end.

[zimv20]

i apologize if I am not understanding something here. I might advocate a lethal injection or some such end.
i agree it's more humane. but it's also illegal in 49 states (iirc).

[MrMacMan]

IT PASSED, DAMNIT. UGH.

ITS SUCH A BREACH OF FEDERAL POWERS.

HOW CAN CONGRESS DO THAT.

HOW CAN THEY MOVE A CASE THAT HAS BEEN DECIDED UPON INTO FEDERAL COURTS?

HOW!

[IJ Reilly]

Why, or how? Why, because they're beholden to the evangelical right wing. How, because they can. These are the only rationales required anymore.

[vwcruisn]

its utterly disgusting how low people will stoop over politics.

my mother passed away a few years back and insisted she not be kept alive on any sort of life support system. i cant even imagine how i would feel right now if they were making a pawn out of her like they are ms. shiavo.

my good thoughts go out to her husband, he must be one strong man to continue this fight as long as he has.

[Ugg]

you know, there is much I might comment on, from the use of "activist" courts by the GOP when it suits them, to the manipulation of procedure to a certain end (makes their stance on filibusters a tad ironic)...but one thing that struck me is not particularily political. Namely:

In a case like this, with a woman in a vegetative state, is there no more humane way to go than merely unhooking the feeding tube and letting her starve to death? I mean, she may not actually suffer from this, but it struck me as being much more humane to give her a quick end. i apologize if I am not understanding something here. I might advocate a lethal injection or some such end.

Ah, the old, "drugs must be better" approach. I remember reading during the Oregon debate on assisted suicide that hospice nurses said that in their opinion, starvation was a much more peaceful way to go. Seeing death as often as they do I tend to believe them. NPR did a special on the Oregon Law and one of the things they made clear is that drugs, if they're not administered correctly and even sometimes if they are can fail and leave the patient in a worse state. For people in comas or those like Terri Schiavo, death by starvation is a much more humane way to go, IMO.

[mischief]

Ah, the old, "drugs must be better" approach. I remember reading during the Oregon debate on assisted suicide that hospice nurses said that in their opinion, starvation was a much more peaceful way to go. Seeing death as often as they do I tend to believe them. NPR did a special on the Oregon Law and one of the things they made clear is that drugs, if they're not administered correctly and even sometimes if they are can fail and leave the patient in a worse state. For people in comas or those like Terri Schiavo, death by starvation is a much more humane way to go, IMO.


In a word: ************.

I've assisted in the euthanasia of more critters than I'd care to think about. It's quick, painless and clean. An experienced Euthanasia Tech can do it right every time provided the subject in question has good veins.

There's a split second when the subject tastes the drugs and swallows once... that's it.

I've also seen more critters starving to death than I'd care to think about. I assure you it's excruciating, debilitating and cruel.

[Desertrat]

No substantiation, and I'm not a doctor: A supposed-doctor was interviewed and commented that if the comatose patient is dying by starvation, the only effort that need be made is to keep the lips and mouth from drying. Supposedly this is the only discomfort which would be felt. Me? I dunno.

The whole deal ain't Congress' bidness.

'Rat

[IJ Reilly]

Maybe you should tell your member of Congress. I know mine won't listen to anything I've got to say.

[MrMacMan]

I'm so glad the dems barely put up a fight.

58 against was it?

sad sad showing.

'Last edited by Rower_CPU : Today at 12:20 PM. Reason: no need to yell'
yea.
I disagree with your reasoning.

[mactastic]

Sometimes other people say it so much better than I could...

Link (http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2005_03_20_digbysblog_archive.html#111134934659869241)

By now most people who read liberal blogs are aware that George W. Bush signed a law in Texas that expressly gave hospitals the right to remove life support if the patient could not pay and there was no hope of revival, regardless of the patient's family's wishes. It is called the Texas Futile Care Law. Under this law, a baby was removed from life support against his mother's wishes in Texas just this week. A 68 year old man was given a temporary reprieve by the Texas courts just yesterday.

Those of us who read liberal blogs are also aware that Republicans have voted en masse to pull the plug (no pun intended) on medicaid funding that pays for the kind of care that someone like Terry Schiavo and many others who are not so severely brain damaged need all across this country.

Those of us who read liberal blogs also understand that that the tort reform that is being contemplated by the Republican congress would preclude malpractice claims like that which has paid for Terry Schiavo's care thus far.

Those of us who read liberal blogs are aware that the bankruptcy bill will make it even more difficult for families who suffer a catastrophic illness like Terry Schiavo's because they will not be able to declare chapter 7 bankruptcy and get a fresh start when the gargantuan medical bills become overwhelming.

And those of us who read liberal blogs also know that this grandstanding by the congress is a purely political move designed to appease the religious right and that the legal maneuverings being employed would be anathema to any true small government conservative.

Those who don't read liberal blogs, on the other hand, are seeing a spectacle on television in which the news anchors repeatedly say that the congress is "stepping in to save Terry Schiavo" mimicking the unctuous words of Tom Delay as they grovel and leer at the family and nod sympathetically at the sanctimonious phonies who are using this issue for their political gain.

This is why we cannot trust the mainstream media. Most people get their news from television. And television is presenting this issue as a round the clock one dimensional soap opera pitting the "family", the congress and the church against this woman's husband and the judicial system that upheld Terry Schiavo's right and explicit request that she be allowed to die if extraordinary means were required to keep her alive. The ghoulish infotainment industry is making a killing by acceding once again to trumped up right wing sensationalism.

This issue gets to the essence of the culture war. Shall the state be allowed to interfere in the most delicate, complicated personal matters of life, death and health because a particular religious constituency holds that their belief system should override each individual's right to make these personal decisions for him or herself. And it isn't the allegedly statist/communist/socialist left that is agitating for the government to tell Americans how they must live and how they must die.

The polls are not in the GOP's favor. They are not 'in the mainstream' on this issue. It's all about appeasing the religious right for putting legislative priority toward the corporate interests after religious conservatives delivered George W. Bush unto the White House.

[Thomas Veil]

I'm so glad the dems barely put up a fight.

58 against was it?

sad sad showing.The Democrats -- my party -- are a bunch of...well, it rhymes with "wussies"....

[Desertrat]

"The ghoulish infotainment industry is making a killing by acceding once again to trumped up right wing sensationalism."

Well, I dunno about "right wing". Lotsa issues, I'm off to the right of Attila the Hun but this ain't one of'em. I just really, really don't have a lot of use for Bible thumpers.

It's just sensationalism. It sells advertising. Just like Scott Peterson and Whatsit Molester and their trials. But isn't that the whole problem? "It sells advertising" because that's what people actually watch.

I've probably learned more about the Schiavo deal right here than from all the previous "news". My attitude? It's not my effing bidness, that's what. Just like it ain't Congress' bidness or the Bible Belt's bidness.

I'm not much given to name calling, but I just hope when that crowd gets home, their mommas come from beneath the porch to bite them. May they discover the joys of self-seduction.

Nighty-bye,

'Rat

[Thomas Veil]

TAMPA, Fla. (AP) - A federal judge on Tuesday refused to order the reinsertion of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube, denying an emergency request from the brain-damaged woman's parents.

The ruling by U.S. District Judge James Whittemore comes after feverish action by President Bush and Congress on legislation allowing her contentious case to be reviewed by federal courts. The judge said the 41-year-old woman's parents had not established a "substantial likelihood of success'' at trial on the merits of their arguments.

Rex Sparklin, an attorney with the law firm representing Terri Schiavo's parents, said lawyers were immediately appealing to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta to "save Terri's life.''Well, it ain't over yet, but that's a good sign. Lets hope the appeals court has the same common sense.

Link (http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20050322%2F0648833245.htm&sc=1110&floc=NW_1-T)

[mactastic]

"The ghoulish infotainment industry is making a killing by acceding once again to trumped up right wing sensationalism."

Well, I dunno about "right wing". Lotsa issues, I'm off to the right of Attila the Hun but this ain't one of'em. I just really, really don't have a lot of use for Bible thumpers.

Hmm... So if I say that I'm pretty left on a lot of issues, but have little use for the gun-control thumpers, that I can then claim that gun-control thumbers ergo aren't liberals? Or that they don't represent a large portion of the left? Come on... This is all coming from right-wing sensationalism.

It's just sensationalism. It sells advertising. Just like Scott Peterson and Whatsit Molester and their trials. But isn't that the whole problem? "It sells advertising" because that's what people actually watch.

It's a subset of sensationalism for sure. The question you have to ask yourself is 'Would this firestorm of political activity from the leaders of Congress AND the President himself be occuring if the religious right wasn't feeling slighted by the corporate right that's running the show in DC right now?'

Would you have the President woken up at 1AM if it wasn't for a national emergency or a big constituent's need?

Are Frist and Delay driving this for political gain?

I've probably learned more about the Schiavo deal right here than from all the previous "news". My attitude? It's not my effing bidness, that's what. Just like it ain't Congress' bidness or the Bible Belt's bidness.

I'm not much given to name calling, but I just hope when that crowd gets home, their mommas come from beneath the porch to bite them. May they discover the joys of self-seduction.

Nighty-bye,

'Rat

And you call ME a statist, yet you vote for these guys. These guys make me look like a libertarian. :p

[IJ Reilly]

This just in:

Michael Savage (on his web site):

The radical Democratic left is an army of soulless ghouls. Being of the living dead, they live in a world of death and try to impose it on we the living. Witness who led the charge: a radical homosexual, Barney Frank. A radical abortion Mafiosa, Barbara Boxer. What is difficult for we the living to comprehend is the reason they can engage in such anti-life abominations is because they have no souls. They have said that the tears of Terri Schiavo are mechanical. They have said that her smile is reflexive. They can rip an emerging child from the womb, murder it, and call this a compassionate act. Like Mengele -- the doctor of death from the Nazi concentration camps -- the radical, soulless Democrats keep referring to "the doctors," as if a medical degree guaranteed humanity. Therefore, choose life. God bless George W. Bush.

Pat Buchanan (on Joe Scarborough):

BUCHANAN: Joe, this is not a single family's life. A woman has been sentenced to death not because she committed a grave crime, but because she is severely brain-damaged. And she's been sentenced to death by dehydration and starvation, an innocent person.

When the German doctors committed those crimes in the 1930s, even before World War II, they were put on trial for crimes against humanity.

[...]

SCARBOROUGH: Pat, are you comparing Terri Schiavo's husband to a Nazi?

BUCHANAN: I'm comparing that judge's decision to a crime against humanity. I'm saying that her husband, who did not use all those funds to take care of her, that her husband, who used the money to see if she could be put to death, that her husband, who married someone else or is living with someone else and has two kids, is not really a husband anymore.

[mactastic]

Then GWB is a soulless Nazi for allowing Sun Hudson to die. Simple as that.

[Desertrat]

mac, it originated with the thumpers, sure. But it's gone way beyond that, into the much larger arena of sensationalism for sensationalism's sake. Even people nowhere nearly as extreme as Savage and Buchanan are all stirred up and choosing sides.

I guess most media moguls are like the comment about foxhunters; you can't eat money, either...

As for statist candidates, almost all are. Very, very few are not. If statism in and of itself is a primary criterion in voting, hey, I might as well stay home. Since I subscribe to "Don't vote? Don't bitch!", I dutifully show up on selection day to earn my grump rights. :)

'Rat

[IJ Reilly]

I don't know about you, but I'm all stirred up and choosing sides because the thumpers, as you call them, appear to be able to cause the Congress and the President jump on command. If that's not a good reason to get stirred up and choose sides, then I don't know what is.

[mactastic]

mac, it originated with the thumpers, sure. But it's gone way beyond that, into the much larger arena of sensationalism for sensationalism's sake. Even people nowhere nearly as extreme as Savage and Buchanan are all stirred up and choosing sides.

Would you care to guess who's paying the attorney's fees for the Schaivo family?

And surprisingly enough, this is a very bipartisan issue. Last I saw, over 50% of Republicans, Independants, and Democrats all said the feeding tube should be removed. So while you may assert that the issue has moved beyond the thumpers, I would disagree. Yes people are picking sides, but only because the thumpers are forcing the issue.

If it's not the thumpers, why is Randall Terry acting as the Schaivo's spokesperson?

I guess most media moguls are like the comment about foxhunters; you can't eat money, either...

Sure the MSM picks up on these kinds of ratings-getters like a PI lawyer goes after the wail of a siren, but that only goes to show how easily the MSM can be manipulated by pols. If the pols didn't think they could drive the airtime on this issue, do you think for one second that they'd be trumpeting it? I don't.

As for statist candidates, almost all are. Very, very few are not. If statism in and of itself is a primary criterion in voting, hey, I might as well stay home. Since I subscribe to "Don't vote? Don't bitch!", I dutifully show up on selection day to earn my grump rights. :)

'Rat

Soif they're all statists, why not vote for the party of smaller government then? :D

Oh right, guns.

[Desertrat]

mac, back up a sec and think of the sequence on all this:

First you had the family squabble between parents and husband (plus whomever else, locally, was involved). Then the Fundies got into it. Then some media coverage and then Florida government. All that goes back over several months.

Then more sensationalism in the media; more Fundies go to emoting and then others begin "choosing sides".

It has taken months for it to build to where the Congress and Dubya began responding to all the noise. It didn't originate with either.

I see by today's headlines that now the Vatican is commenting. Is the Vatican a hard core right wing organization?

About voiting: I see no way for a Libertarian or an Independent to win a major political race, other than in some few rare instances. For all practical purposes the choice is between a Demublican or a Republicrat. So, like most folks, I look at the comparisons between individual candidates. At the local level I find as many "good" Democrats as Republicans. My state representative, Pete Gallegos, is a pretty sharp guy, and very knowledgeable on issues I see as important to our area--as well as statewide. He's a Democrat. My state senator is a conservative Republican; he's about .500 IMO on issues I see as important...

For national voting I've become rather selfish, I guess. I look at issues and policies which would impact me, personally, and vote for the lesser of the two weevils insofar as lesser harm to me. I guess the rationalization for this is that I've given up on the idea that me worrying about the good of the nation is more than a waste of psychic energy. Ending of the beating of one's head on a concrete wall is better than a bottle full of aspirin. That may be cynical, but it's danged sure reality. I calls'em as I sees'em.

'Rat

[skunk]

For national voting I've become rather selfish, I guess. I look at issues and policies which would impact me, personally, and vote for the lesser of the two weevils insofar as lesser harm to me. I guess the rationalization for this is that I've given up on the idea that me worrying about the good of the nation is more than a waste of psychic energy.

Ending of the beating of one's head on a concrete wall is better than a bottle full of aspirin. That may be cynical, but it's danged sure reality. I calls'em as I sees'em.
Unfortunately for you - and for us all - your gummint has plenty of effect on the wider world. You're simply passing the cost of the aspirin on to us. With great power, etc....

[IJ Reilly]

From one of my favorite columnists at the LA Times.

The Right to Die Is a Personal Matter
Steve Lopez
Points West

March 23, 2005

I'm praying, I'm begging, I'm even offering money.

If by some unexpected turn I end up hospitalized in a vegetative state with virtually no chance of recovery, please kill me.

I'm hereby putting out a contract on myself, offering $1,000, a pair of field-level Dodger tickets and my bowling trophy to the first person who storms the hospital and sends me into the Great Beyond.

Pull the plug.

Put a pillow over my head.

Make me watch Bill O'Reilly.

Whatever it takes.

(Note to doctors: Feel free to harvest any of my organs that might keep someone else alive, although I'd steer clear of the liver.)

I'm asking for reader assistance in case nobody believes my wife when she says I authorized her to yank my feeding tube.

I don't want the courts, Congress, the president of the United States or anyone who goes around waving photos of aborted fetuses to decide what's morally appropriate for me.

Don't get me wrong. Abortion is a tragedy, and so is the act of pulling the plug on a brain-damaged human being.

I'm not suggesting the Florida case of Terri Schiavo isn't a can of worms legally and morally, with her husband and parents in disagreement about whether the brain-damaged woman's feeding tube should have been removed.

In fact, I'm with those who argue it's cruel to let Schiavo slowly starve while we all stand around on national death watch. If the decision is that she has a right to die, why aren't we evolved enough to make it happen as quickly and humanely as possible?

The Schiavo case stands as a reminder to get my own living will in order. If I can't tell the difference between my baby daughter and a bag of groceries, God forbid, and if my only movements and expressions are random and involuntary, I'd rather not hang around, thank you.

Start the cyanide drip.

Better yet, make it a lethal dose of tequila.

In lieu of flowers, send a donation to the Hemlock Society, or whatever they call it now.

I just saw the movie "The Sea Inside," in which an alert and intelligent quadriplegic begs family, friends and the Spanish government to let him die. His loved ones are all conflicted for obvious reasons. How could they deliver a lethal blow to a man with so much grace and wit that women still keep falling in love with him?

He doesn't advocate his choice for other disabled people, the quadriplegic says. To each his own. But he has decided, after being immobile for 27 years following a diving accident, that he would rather die with dignity than continue suffering with the memories of a full and active life.

He also insists that no one but he should have the right to determine his fate. No judge, no government, no religion has a monopoly on virtue.

The quadriplegic finally tells an admirer there is only one way she can prove her love for him.

Amen.

Dying doesn't scare me as much as the idea of staring past the people I live for.

Look, if I'm in bad shape but there's a realistic chance I might one day be up and around, by all means, do everything possible to save me, and don't be afraid to overbill Blue Cross.

But if I were no more alert than a cucumber, the last thing I'd want is for my family to stand vigil day after day, month after month, year after year, as nurses change my bedpan every few hours.

I appreciate life too much to have them sacrifice theirs.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lopez23mar23,0,3621730.column

[mischief]

Good article IJ.

Reference in regards to humane euthanasia (http://www.acc.ubc.ca/SOP/SOPeuthp.html).

Having restrained animals for euthanasia by this method (including three family pets with lethal ailments) I can personally attest to it's humane nature. The above link includes methodology for primates, the one group most closely associated with human cognitive abilities.

[dsharits]

You all obviously don't know the details of this case. Terri Schiavo is not in a coma, she is not in a persistent vegetative state, and she is not on life support. What they are calling life support is food and water, the essentials for every human being to live. This started about fifteen years ago when Terri collapsed in the middle of the night (her husband being the only witness of this). Doctors say that she suffered brain damage due to a lack of oxygen to her brain, and (not pointing any fingers here) several doctors have since testified that her symptoms and condition is consistent with that of a strangling victim. In the following years, Michael Schiavo filed malpractice suits against her doctors saying that they should have done blood tests on her, and could have prevented this situation with the proper medication. He claims that she was found to be bolemic, but her her family has no knowledge of this, and they were subsequently blocked from having access to her medical records. He won the lawsuits and collected over $2.5 million, which he said that he was going to use to provide rehabilitation for Terri. The only money that was spent on Terri at all was used to provide very basic care. Seven years after the initial incident, Michael Schiavo became engaged with another woman, and only then did he suddenly "remember" that her wish was to not be kept alive in her situation. He claims that while watching a movie, she mentioned to him that she wouldn't want to be sustained on life support, but he never mentioned this to anybody at any prior time. That's when the present battle started. He says that she is in a vegetative state, while many doctors that have examined her say that she can be rehabilitated and eventually regain her speech, the use of her arms, and the ability to swallow (which nurses and doctors have testified that she is already able to do, making the feeding tube unnecessary).the family only wants to keep her alive and care for her, but his only interest is in killing her. There are just too many questions and suspicions surrounding Michael Schiavo's motivation in killing his wife. For instance, even if she is in a vegetative state like ha says she is, she doesn't know that she is being "forced to live", so why not at least try rehabilitation? What is the rush in killing her? He has too many possible motives for finishing this. Also, since when is it right for us to kill handicapped people just because we wouldn't want to live that way? I've got news for you, I wouldn't want to live like an infant, being dependant on "life support" and having little to no communication with other people. If we're following that logic, shouldn't we kill off all newborn babies, bcause we wouldn't want to live that way? This whole case is such an obvious decision, especially because she is alert, she can communicate to a degree, and she is aware of what's going on. For proof of this, look at the videos on terrisfight.org. They show undeniable evidence that Terri Schiavo is conscious and aware of everything going on around her, yet Michael and his doctors say that she is brain-dead and that it is her wish to be starved to death (even though she was ttold that her food and water was going to be taken away and she started screaming so loud that a police officer down the hall came into the room to see what was going on). Like I said before, nurses have said that they have fed her successfully with a spoon, and doctors have said that she can swallow. Why then is the "life support" even an issue? Because Michael Schiavo knows that if she can swallow, he can't kill her. This is not a case over the "right to die", it's a case over the right to live.

[mactastic]

Liars and Hypocrites (http://dcinsidescoop.blogspot.com/2005/03/frist-urged-changing-definition-of.html)

[Bill]Frist wrote a book in 1989 called Transplant where he advocated changing the definition of "brain dead" to include anencephalic babies. Anencephalic babies are in the same state as Terri Schiavo except that she suffered a physical trauma that put her into a vegetative state while the anencephalic babies are born that way.

This remarkable discovery buttresses the argument that Frist's advocacy for Schiavo is wholly political. How does he explain this remarkable inconsistency? Here is the relevant passage on Frist as quoted by the New Republic in 2003:

"And, although Frist writes frequently about the ethical issues surrounding transplants--for example, the question of when death begins--he approaches these issues in starkly scientific terms, with little patience for religious objections.

"Near the end of the book, for example, Frist suggests changing the legal definition of 'brain death' to include anencephalic babies, who are born with a fatal neurological disorder but show just the slightest hint of brain-stem activity. Such a change would make it possible to harvest their organs for transplant--something the Catholic Church and pro-life groups oppose. 'Three thousand anencephalic babies were born a year, enough to solve our demand many times over--but we never used them.'"

There are just too many questions and suspicions surrounding Bill Frist's motivation in prolonging Terri Schaivo's agony.

[dsharits]

Liars and Hypocrites (http://dcinsidescoop.blogspot.com/2005/03/frist-urged-changing-definition-of.html)



There are just too many questions and suspicions surrounding Bill Frist's motivation in prolonging Terri Schaivo's agony.
She is not in agony! The only agony that she has experienced is starving to death! Bill Frist is only concerned with saving her life. She does not want to die. You always want to talk about rights being taken away, but when you find a story of someone's very right to life being taken away, you join the side of the people taking away her rights. This entire trial has been illegal on several points, but you're fine with it. Furthermore, how could she possibly be in agony if she's in a PVS? If she is in agony, then she's not in a PVS and can't be legally starved to death. It's a big catch 22. This whole situation does not smell right. The family can't possibly have any motivation other than wanting to save Terri's life. Michael Schiavo says that his motivation is carrying out his wife's wishes that he has no proof of and he only remembered seven years after the initial incident. You can honestly stand there and tell me that you are questioning Bill Frist's motivation, but you aren't even questioning the motivation af Michael Schiavo? One is trying to preserve life, and one is trying to take it away! Which one do you think is the safer choice?

[IJ Reilly]

After seven years of the facts of this situation being argued in courtrooms, you and only you really know what Terri Shiavo wants. It must be such a terrible burden to carry around these deep insights into the lives of people you haven't even met and to be able to render such certain judgments about subjects you know nothing about.

[zimv20]

She is not in agony! The only agony that she has experienced is starving to death!
contradiction.


She does not want to die.
assuming she's capable of want at any level, how would you know?

[blackfox]

You all obviously don't know the details of this case. Terri Schiavo is not in a coma, she is not in a persistent vegetative state, and she is not on life support. What they are calling life support is food and water, the essentials for every human being to live. This started about fifteen years ago when Terri collapsed in the middle of the night (her husband being the only witness of this). Doctors say that she suffered brain damage due to a lack of oxygen to her brain, and (not pointing any fingers here) several doctors have since testified that her symptoms and condition is consistent with that of a strangling victim. In the following years, Michael Schiavo filed malpractice suits against her doctors saying that they should have done blood tests on her, and could have prevented this situation with the proper medication. He claims that she was found to be bolemic, but her her family has no knowledge of this, and they were subsequently blocked from having access to her medical records. He won the lawsuits and collected over $2.5 million, which he said that he was going to use to provide rehabilitation for Terri. The only money that was spent on Terri at all was used to provide very basic care. Seven years after the initial incident, Michael Schiavo became engaged with another woman, and only then did he suddenly "remember" that her wish was to not be kept alive in her situation. He claims that while watching a movie, she mentioned to him that she wouldn't want to be sustained on life support, but he never mentioned this to anybody at any prior time. That's when the present battle started. He says that she is in a vegetative state, while many doctors that have examined her say that she can be rehabilitated and eventually regain her speech, the use of her arms, and the ability to swallow (which nurses and doctors have testified that she is already able to do, making the feeding tube unnecessary).the family only wants to keep her alive and care for her, but his only interest is in killing her. There are just too many questions and suspicions surrounding Michael Schiavo's motivation in killing his wife. For instance, even if she is in a vegetative state like ha says she is, she doesn't know that she is being "forced to live", so why not at least try rehabilitation? What is the rush in killing her? He has too many possible motives for finishing this. Also, since when is it right for us to kill handicapped people just because we wouldn't want to live that way? I've got news for you, I wouldn't want to live like an infant, being dependant on "life support" and having little to no communication with other people. If we're following that logic, shouldn't we kill off all newborn babies, bcause we wouldn't want to live that way? This whole case is such an obvious decision, especially because she is alert, she can communicate to a degree, and she is aware of what's going on. For proof of this, look at the videos on terrisfight.org. They show undeniable evidence that Terri Schiavo is conscious and aware of everything going on around her, yet Michael and his doctors say that she is brain-dead and that it is her wish to be starved to death (even though she was ttold that her food and water was going to be taken away and she started screaming so loud that a police officer down the hall came into the room to see what was going on). Like I said before, nurses have said that they have fed her successfully with a spoon, and doctors have said that she can swallow. Why then is the "life support" even an issue? Because Michael Schiavo knows that if she can swallow, he can't kill her. This is not a case over the "right to die", it's a case over the right to live.

Daniel,
It really doesn't matter what you think, nor I for that matter. Personally, I do not agree with your take quoted above, but it is irrelevant either way.

This is a decision given by law to the husband. It is his decision. Beyond that, in this day and age, it is the decision of the relevant courts whose job it is to interpret the law. There is always a good chance that you will, as an individual, disagree with their decision(s). Tough. That is the system.

Is this an unfortunate circumstance? Yes. Do I feel for those involved? Most definitely. That emotional response does not automatically endow me with the wisdom to know what is right better than another, nor the right to particupate in or supercede the decisions and fate of complete strangers.

If you feel this is a great travesty, I can guarantee you that if any number of human dramas occuring in cities and towns across this country received the same press and interest as this case, that many people would be equally moved. The Schaivo case is hardly exceptional, despite what some would have you to believe.

This is not a perfect world.

[IJ Reilly]

This is not a perfect world.

But don't you understand? It could be a perfect world if only believers in the True Word of God were allowed to make law or interpret law. And don't you listen to the unsaved people who'll tell you this is even a little bit like Iran run by Mullahs or Afghanistan run by the Taliban. They weren't Christians, and that makes all the difference.

[dsharits]

Daniel,
It really doesn't matter what you think, nor I for that matter. Personally, I do not agree with your take quoted above, but it is irrelevant either way.

This is a decision given by law to the husband. It is his decision. Beyond that, in this day and age, it is the decision of the relevant courts whose job it is to interpret the law. There is always a good chance that you will, as an individual, disagree with their decision(s). Tough. That is the system.

Is this an unfortunate circumstance? Yes. Do I feel for those involved? Most definitely. That emotional response does not automatically endow me with the wisdom to know what is right better than another, nor the right to particupate in or supercede the decisions and fate of complete strangers.

If you feel this is a great travesty, I can guarantee you that if any number of human dramas occuring in cities and towns across this country received the same press and interest as this case, that many people would be equally moved. The Schaivo case is hardly exceptional, despite what some would have you to believe.

This is not a perfect world.
I understand what you're saying, and I know that there are other cases like this. It's just that this particular case really hits close to home, because it's been going on for so long, and it's only a few miles south of where I live. I'm just looking at the evidence, and what has been proven to be factual. I believe that this case just has far too many question to just order Terri to die. I think that it would be much safer to do a full investigation. I mean, she's been like this for 15 years, and if she's not feeling anything, like Schiavo's doctors say, wht is it going to hurt to keep her alive for a few more months to allow a full investigation of all parties involved. It makes much more sense to err on the side of life, rather than allow her to starve to death before any answers are found. If you let her live a little longer and find it to be a mistake, that can always be made up. Once she's gone, that's it. You can't make up for that mistake.

[zimv20]

It makes much more sense to err on the side of life, rather than allow her to starve to death before any answers are found. If you let her live a little longer and find it to be a mistake, that can always be made up. Once she's gone, that's it. You can't make up for that mistake.
what's your stance on capital punishment?

[zimv20]

to underscore the political undertones of this issue, i'd like to point out that bush flew back to D.C. to sign the legislation, while back in 2001, upon receiving a memo about UBL being determined to strike in the US, bush felt comfortable staying on his ranch.

[Xtremehkr]

How long are people going to allow the pretense that GWB has our best interests to exist. 5 years into this regime, the fact that Bush is working in his own, corporate and plutocratic interests in practically indisputable. If the actions of the first term did not make that clear the actions of the second term must. What is being undertaken currently is a complete departure from anything that will ever benefit the nation as a whole.

[vwcruisn]

to underscore the political undertones of this issue, i'd like to point out that bush flew back to D.C. to sign the legislation, while back in 2001, upon receiving a memo about UBL being determined to strike in the US, bush felt comfortable staying on his ranch.

beautiful.

its great to know the person in charge of the most powerful country on earth has his priorities straight.

[blackfox]

Originally Posted by dsharits
It makes much more sense to err on the side of life, rather than allow her to starve to death before any answers are found. If you let her live a little longer and find it to be a mistake, that can always be made up. Once she's gone, that's it. You can't make up for that mistake.


what's your stance on capital punishment?

Not to put too fine a point on zim's point, but I would have to ask people to consider their stances/objections on the Schaivo case (or those similar), and compare them with their stances on Capital Punishment and Euthanasia.

One would hope to find some semblance of logical consistency. Think about it. Daniel, although I have quoted you specifically, this is an exercise for everyone and I don't presume to know anyone's stance on all these issues.

In all subjects, it comes down to who is allowed to be in charge of someone's life-or-death.

If you object to Mrs. Schaivo being allowed to die because the method of removing the feeding tube (and by implied starvation/dehydradation) seems inhumane, would you find execution objectionable because death by gas, electricity or (poorly applied) lethal injection is also inhumane? Although you may be tempted to include the character of the individual in question in your argument, bear in mind it is irrelevant to whether an action is inhumane or not.

If you object to Mrs. Shaivo being allowed to die because you feel she has a (slim) chance of recovery and deserves the right to live, then would you not object to the death penalty as it is equally possible that even the most despicable criminal would have a chance at rehabilitation and contributing positively to society?

If you feel that Mrs. Schaivo should continue to live because you do not trust the motives of her husband and/or parents and feel that she might want to live, then would you not agree with a euthanasia law such as my state of Oregon?

Do you feel that the money spent (or able to be spent) on hospital bills/lobbying/lawsuits/defense attorneys (etc) should be a factor taken into account in all of these issues, as there is an obvious disparity in reaction and results proportional to the money spent?

If you support the Death Penalty and the legal system that convicted them, why would you not support that same legal system in a case like Mrs. Schaivo's?

Also, if someone was obviously suffering from a terminal illness or debilitating condition, is it inhumane to deny them the option to end their suffering via euthanasia if they decide to do so? Does "life" trump the sanctity of self-determination? If so, then isn't Capital Punishment obviously out of bounds?

On a different scale, do you find the official positions taken by the GOP on these issues to be contradictory? What do you think about the Texas law regarding life support signed by Bush in relation to all this (I know it has been mentioned). Do you find this at all disingenious?

There are many more arguments to be raised, but I thought this might make a couple people think and perhaps create an interesting discussion.

[IJ Reilly]

I think I can answer that:

When the legal system produces results which comport with my ideological positions, they are correct. When they produce results which are at odds with my ideology, they are not only wrong, but the entire process by which they were arrived at is highly suspect and the people who arrived at them deserving victims of organized character assassination.

Ah, life is good -- once you understand its secrets!

[mactastic]

You forgot the part where if a judge disagrees with you s/he is an activist judge.

[mischief]

This whole case is such an obvious decision, especially because she is alert, she can communicate to a degree, and she is aware of what's going on. For proof of this, look at the videos on terrisfight.org. They show undeniable evidence that Terri Schiavo is conscious and aware of everything going on around her, yet Michael and his doctors say that she is brain-dead

This case has been thoroughly investigated. There's even been a guardian of the court assigned to observe and investigate Terri's "lucid moments" to see if she is, in fact in a Permanent Vegitative State (http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/921394859.html). The determination, after months of attempting to reproduce the same reaction twice, in any manner as well as interviewing (deposing) those in constant contact with her at the hospice including Nurses, police officers and physicians specific to her case was that she is, indeed in a PVS.

Mr. Shiavo was tried for attempted murder and acquitted. He was thoroughly investigated at the time as a primary suspect. It was determined that she had suffered a Myocardial Infarction (Heart Attack) as a result of low potassium stemming from an eating disorder.

What you're seeing on those clips is a vestigal reactivity. It's spin born of obsessed people who won't accept that their daughter effectively killed herself with a tragic body-image obsession.

If I were to follow you around with a camera for fifteen years, obsessed and convinced that (for example) you were a serial rapist I'm quite confident of my ability to piece together, from those thousands of hours enough moments to get you arrested.

You really must consider that any subject that people are obsessed with beyond reason has such "facts" and hyperbole. If I were to search the net right now I could find "Irrifutable evidence" that the UN is a Zionist plot for world domination; that those of African descent have inherently lower IQ's and a penchant for violent and antisocial behaviour; that Jesus appeared to a poor catholic in bread mould on her tortillas in Chihuahau; that stigmata are a sign of True Faith; that The Holocaust never happened; that Hitler was the second coming; that GWB is the second coming; that these are the End Times; that the End Times have come and gone and this is Purgatory; etc.

[IJ Reilly]

Parents' Side Has Vilified Husband

The decreasing legal options for those who want Terri Schiavo kept alive are 'clearly fueling the fires' of anger, a psychology expert says.

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. — "Michael, why are you afraid to let Terri live?"

The sign outside Woodside Hospice, where Terri Schiavo has been without food or water for six days, hints at the villainous motives protesters ascribe to her husband, Michael, in his quest to let her die after 15 years in what doctors have called a persistent vegetative state.

Demonized by his in-laws, antiabortion activists and the religious right, Michael Schiavo has become the target of accusations that he caused her heart attack and collapse with abusive, violent behavior; that he fabricated the story that she wouldn't want to live this way only after collecting more than $1 million in a malpractice claim; that he has sabotaged her therapy and barred her friends and family from comforting visits; and that he wants her to die so he can marry a woman with whom he has lived for the last few years and fathered two children.

Michael Schiavo has vehemently denied the accusations of abuse, greed and heartlessness in interviews and to investigators, and an independent report to Gov. Jeb Bush and the judicial system two years ago said "the evidence is incontrovertible that he gave his heart and soul to her treatment and care."

...

The exhaustive 2003 report by Jay Wolfson, professor of public health and medicine at the University of South Florida, noted that Schiavo took his wife to California for experimental treatment in fall 1990, when a thalamic stimulator was implanted in her brain. Some neurologists now consider that an obstacle to further MRI scans to assess her brain function.

Wolfson further detailed the chain of events that led to a falling-out between Michael Schiavo and his in-laws, Bob and Mary Schindler, after four years of extensive treatment led doctors to conclude that Terri Schiavo had no meaningful connection with her surroundings or prospects for improvement.

In these waning days of the conflict over who has the right to make a life-or-death decision for Terri Schiavo, neither medical facts nor judicial rulings have lessened the vitriol from those who have sought to demonize her husband for his contention that she wouldn't want to live this way.

And with each passing day, the animosity has ratcheted higher and the characterizations of Michael Schiavo have taken on an increasingly vicious tone.

"He's blocked her parents from visiting for months on end. He won't allow the shades to be opened in her room, so she's in total darkness. He was a loving husband only for as long as it took to get the malpractice money, and now he just wants to get rid of her," charged Carol Rubright, a Port Charlotte resident who makes the nearly two-hour trip to the hospice daily to show solidarity with the Schindlers.

The 1993 medical malpractice award in response to a petition filed by Michael Schiavo on his wife's behalf created a trust in which $750,000 was deposited for Terri Schiavo's medical care and upkeep and $300,000 went to her husband for his suffering and loss. Most of the treatment funds have been spent in the nearly 12 years since the award.

Wolfson's report said there was "no evidence in the record of the trust administration documents of any mismanagement of Theresa's estate, and the records on this matter are excellently maintained."

Crowd psychology experts say demonizing those with opposing views is common in such highly emotional confrontations as abortion rights and end-of-life decisions.

"This definitely tends to intensify over time," said Jack Aiello, a Rutgers University psychology professor. Noting that judicial decisions have come down against those seeking to prolong Terri Schiavo's life, Aiello said their decreasing options are "clearly fueling the fires."

"The more strongly one side's beliefs are held, the more likely it is to perceive the other side as an exaggeration of all that is wrong," he said of those who oppose Michael Schiavo's position and accuse him of planning celebrations after his wife's demise.

The attacks on his character have become talk-show fodder and high-profile commentary, from the Wall Street Journal's editorial pages to website chat rooms and morning drive-time call-ins. It has also raised the emotional temperature among those standing vigil outside the hospice, where 60 to 80 protesters chant and sing in hopes that Terri Schiavo's life will be extended and where a handful of right-to-die advocates denounce the intrusions.

...

But most of those sporadically standing vigil outside the hospice as courts considered conflicting legal motions described the man who is Terri Schiavo's legal guardian as well as her husband of 20 years as evil incarnate.

He is compared with Scott Peterson, convicted of killing his pregnant wife, to Nazi proponents of euthanizing the infirm, to Southern racists who sought to deprive fellow citizens of constitutional protections. Posters abound with provocative barbs such as, "Is Florida the Next Auschwich [sic]?" and "Michael, are you partying yet?"

Terri Schiavo's brother, Bobby Schindler, has used the spotlight to draw attention to claims that his sister suffered bone fractures and other abuses. A state court this month rejected a state agency's effort to investigate, saying the allegations had previously been found to be groundless.

The round-the-clock protest of legal rulings against further medical intervention has become, day by day and one appeal after another, an incubator for vilifying Michael Schiavo and for exploring conspiracy theories.

...

Conservative groups and disabled advocacy organizations have disseminated garish parodies of the husband they see as relishing his wife's potential demise.

"I, Michael Schiavo, Am Starving My Wife Today (and I feel good)," said the headline of a mock letter distributed by a group called the Hospice Patients Alliance.

...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-michael24mar24,1,4437194.story

[skunk]

If I were to search the net right now I could find "Irrifutable evidence" that the UN is a Zionist plot for world domination; that those of African descent have inherently lower IQ's and a penchant for violent and antisocial behaviour; that Jesus appeared to a poor catholic in bread mould on her tortillas in Chihuahau; that stigmata are a sign of True Faith; that The Holocaust never happened; that Hitler was the second coming; that GWB is the second coming; that these are the End Times; that the End Times have come and gone and this is Purgatory; etc.
Links, please... ;)

[dsharits]

This case has been thoroughly investigated. There's even been a guardian of the court assigned to observe and investigate Terri's "lucid moments" to see if she is, in fact in a Permanent Vegitative State (http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/921394859.html). The determination, after months of attempting to reproduce the same reaction twice, in any manner as well as interviewing (deposing) those in constant contact with her at the hospice including Nurses, police officers and physicians specific to her case was that she is, indeed in a PVS.

Mr. Shiavo was tried for attempted murder and acquitted. He was thoroughly investigated at the time as a primary suspect. It was determined that she had suffered a Myocardial Infarction (Heart Attack) as a result of low potassium stemming from an eating disorder.

What you're seeing on those clips is a vestigal reactivity. It's spin born of obsessed people who won't accept that their daughter effectively killed herself with a tragic body-image obsession.

If I were to follow you around with a camera for fifteen years, obsessed and convinced that (for example) you were a serial rapist I'm quite confident of my ability to piece together, from those thousands of hours enough moments to get you arrested.

You really must consider that any subject that people are obsessed with beyond reason has such "facts" and hyperbole. If I were to search the net right now I could find "Irrifutable evidence" that the UN is a Zionist plot for world domination; that those of African descent have inherently lower IQ's and a penchant for violent and antisocial behaviour; that Jesus appeared to a poor catholic in bread mould on her tortillas in Chihuahau; that stigmata are a sign of True Faith; that The Holocaust never happened; that Hitler was the second coming; that GWB is the second coming; that these are the End Times; that the End Times have come and gone and this is Purgatory; etc.
She is not in a PVS. If she was, she would be completely motionless, unable to react to people, unable to see and she would appear to be dead or asleep. She did not have a heart attack, there is no evidence of this, nor is there any evidence of her having an eating disorder. And I promise you, if you followed me around for 15 years with a camera, you would not find one ounce of evidence or apparent "moments" that I was a serial rapist. And I'm sure that if you searched the internet long enough, you would find that Micheal Schiavo only has his wife's best interest in mind, and that he is a kind wholesome human being, but that's not true either.

[Blue Velvet]

Supreme Court rejects Schiavo plea
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4380061.stm

Though I guess if you're following this story you already know this, right?

So has the buck stopped?

[skunk]

It's not that straightforward, Daniel:
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/319/7213/841
Visual awareness
The visual system is the easiest to test. To check whether intact motor output is available, the examiner should observe whether the patient has spontaneous eye movements (the eyes often rove about spontaneously) and eye opening and closing. Then pupillary reflexes to bright light must be checked to establish whether there is an intact primary sensory pathway. Next the examiner should look for visual fixationactive looking at or for objects. Patients in a permanent vegetative state may occasionally look towards noise or new visual stimuli, but any greater visual exploration of the environment should raise concern that they have some residual awareness. Visual tracking of large objects moving in the visual field may occur in patients in the permanent vegetative state, but this should always prompt careful evaluation of the state. There should be no response such as eye closure to direct visual threat. The limited evidence from humans suggests that this requires complex cortical processing.12 A response implies awareness of threat, although this need not suggest self awareness in the absence of any other evidence.


Auditory assessment
Auditory assessment involves using voice and other noises. The examiner should first establish whether sudden loud noise causes a general startle response. If so, the examiner should give simple, unambiguous instructions to undertake some simple movement such as closing eyes, looking left, or moving an arm. Spontaneous movements may complicate the interpretation, and prolonged observation may be needed to establish whether any apparent response is coincidental. It is also important to establish what responses there are or have been to other noises (for example, telephones, music, and familiar voices).


Somatic sensory system
The somatic sensory system is first assessed by using painful stimuli, looking for local and generalised responses to confirm intact input and output. Establishing whether the patient can abstract meaning from other somatic sensory stimuli is more difficult. The examiner should ask whether any cooperative motor response has been seen during routine nursing and other care and should observe responses to touch and other stimuli.


Motor activity
Some motor activityboth spontaneous and in response to sensory stimulationis normal. It would be extremely unusual not to see focal and generalised motor responses (such as limb movement, facial grimacing, or yawning) to painful stimulus. If movement is minimal, the examiner should consider whether there is other neurological damage such as spinal cord injury, peripheral neuropathy, or drug toxicity.


Use all available evidence
Medical assessors must not restrict themselves to direct formal examination of the patient. A patient's behaviour may vary throughout the day and over longer periods, and some stimuli will arise only infrequently. Consequently, all available sources of evidence must be used; all written records including nursing notes should be reviewed and staff who have been in close contact with the patient over some time should be interviewed.
It is particularly important to interview family members. They may have observed behaviour that indicates awareness, and their opinion on the patient's level of awareness must be sought. It is also important to ask them what they believe to have been the likely wishes of the patient, and what their own views are on the appropriateness of stopping medical treatment. Finally, the clinician should explain the situation and procedure to the family, and answer all their questions.



Observation versus interpretation
When obtaining evidence from other observers or from written material, it is vital that the examiner distinguishes clearly between observed behaviour and interpretation of the behaviour. Thus, family or staff should be asked directly what behaviour was actually observed. The examiner may then ask for their interpretations, which may show further observational evidence. However, interpretations made by observers may well be biased and the assessor should make her or his own interpretation.

[mischief]

Links RE: PVS reactivity:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/breaking_news/11194022.htm

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/03/23/TERMS.TMP

http://www.thalidomide.ca/gwolbring/pvsilm.htm

NOT brain dead. If she were brain dead she would have neither pulse nor respiration.

skunk: Much as I could provide links to my examples.... I'll have to wait until I'm no longer at work.

[blackfox]

She is not in a PVS. If she was, she would be completely motionless, unable to react to people, unable to see and she would appear to be dead or asleep. She did not have a heart attack, there is no evidence of this, nor is there any evidence of her having an eating disorder.
Not to be contentious, but are you qualified to diagnose PVS or it's range of symptoms? I am not, although I have read up on the matter a bit. I have learned that it is a relatively rare state, and like all classifications, does not fit neatly within a certain set of characteristics, due to the uniqueness of each circumstance.

And I promise you, if you followed me around for 15 years with a camera, you would not find one ounce of evidence or apparent "moments" that I was a serial rapist.
I'm sorry, but are you saying you're a serial rapist? I hope not, but that is how I took this sentence.

I am curious as to your opinion on my earlier post Daniel, regarding consistent positions with comparisons to Euthanasia, Capital Punishment and Integrity of Government positions on these subjects. If you find the time...

[IJ Reilly]

Oh come on, haven't we all been granted honorary PhDs in neurology for purposes of this debate? Well, not me, but at least some of us have...

[Xtremehkr]

Dsharits, I am nominating BlackFox for a Nobel Prize in Neurology. He's now a Nobel Prize nominee, what are your credentials?

[Blue Velvet]

He's now a Nobel Prize nominee, what are your credentials?

Go ask Henry Kissinger.

[mactastic]

You guys aren't going to get anywhere with Daniel with facts. If he says she's not in a vegetative state, it must be true. Nothing will suffice to refute his assesment.

So has the buck stopped?

No, not quite. Govenor Bush could act to take custody away from Mr. Schaivo while the Florida system looks into some recent phone tips alleging abuse (funny how those accusations are just now coming to light, huh?) and since Bush seems intent on running for POTUS in the not-to-distant future there is some speculation that he will use this as his way of proving he's 'one of them' to the American Taliban wing of the GOP.

If that fails I don't doubt that we will see some criminal action on the part of some protestors to try and intervene.

And Terry will never know any of it happened.

[Rower_CPU]

Folks, let's try to take the combative/inflammatory tone down a notch or two. Thanks :)

[mactastic]

More from the Senate Liar (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/12/edwards.stem.cell/) ...I mean leader.

"I find it opportunistic to use the death of someone like Christopher Reeve -- I think it is shameful -- in order to mislead the American people," Frist said. "We should be offering people hope, but neither physicians, scientists, public servants or trial lawyers like John Edwards should be offering hype.

"It is cruel to people who have disabilities and chronic diseases, and, on top of that, it's dishonest. It's giving false hope to people, and I can tell you as a physician who's treated scores of thousands of patients that you don't give them false hope."

When it suits him he tells Edwards not to offer hope, and when it suits him he gives hope to Schaivo. Crass politics. This is not being lost on the American people.

[blackfox]

When it suits him he tells Edwards not to offer hope, and when it suits him he gives hope to Schaivo. Crass politics. This is not being lost on the American people.
Mac, do you mean hype in place of hope in your post? I am confused, as your post means different things depending.

I like to think you meant the former, and I agree with you - although I am not so sure this registers withall the American public - there is a substantial recent precedent which implies otherwise.

*edit* To clarify, I am following the implication of Frist's quote where hype=false hope. Not to be confused with...meh, whatever...it has been a long day.

[zimv20]

frist is having a go at john edwards? he's about 5 months too late.

[IJ Reilly]

frist is having a go at john edwards? he's about 5 months too late.

The Frist quote was from last October. Check me on this, but wasn't that the point?

[zimv20]

The Frist quote was from last October.
ah, yes, that time thing. (it's what keeps me from wearing all my pants at once)

[Thomas Veil]

Sheesh, you hate to stereotype people, but look what's going on:

A perimeter around the federal courthouse was evacuated during the hearing after a suspicious backpack was found outside. The hearing was not interrupted, and the package was safely detonated using a remote device.

Thursday evening, a man was arrested after he went to a gun store in Seminole and threatened its owner with a box cutter while demanding a weapon to "rescue'' Terri Schiavo, the Pinellas County sheriff's office said.Link (http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20050325%2F0603081202.htm&ewp=ewp_news_0305terri&floc=NW_1-T)

And then there's this:

But most of those sporadically standing vigil outside the hospice as courts considered conflicting legal motions described the man who is Terri Schiavo's legal guardian as well as her husband of 20 years as evil incarnate.(That's from IJ's earlier post.) I expect the next thing, if it hasn't happened already, will be threats against Michael Schiavo's life...if not actual attempts.

It is so pitiful that people are willing to hang so desperately onto this fantasy about Terri being aware, being murdered, etc., rather than to honor her own choice. It's a kind of self-delusion you normally associate with people who wear tight white jackets with lots of buckles and reside in state institutions.

[IJ Reilly]

From my morning paper:

[Gov] Bush's tone of resignation sparked anger and disappointment among protesters standing vigil outside the hospice where Schiavo was being cared for. [Randell] Terry, who has been advising the Schindlers, said "there will be hell to pay" if the politicians whom religious conservatives had helped elect let Schiavo die.

...

The protesters outside the Woodside Hospice appealed Thursday to Gov. Bush to disregard the rulings of more than two dozen state and federal judges over the last seven years and take custody of Schiavo by force.

"There's a constitutional crisis looming in the state of Florida," said the Rev. Pat Mahoney of the Christian Defense Coalition in Washington. "The question is, will Gov. Bush allow a district court judge to tell him how to run his state?"

Terry accused the governor and the Department of Children and Families of raising the Schindlers' hopes of rescuing their daughter, only to cave in to "a runaway judiciary."

...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-schiavo25mar25,1,5542132.story

Tell me we aren't headed for a major political train wreck in the country.

[Xtremehkr]

We are a land of crazy people. There have been death threats made to all sorts of people including judges. Which is its own bag of contradictions.

It looks like this monster that Jeb Bush created is going to turn on him and bite him in the ass.

[pseudobrit]

It looks like this monster that Jeb Bush created is going to turn on him and bite him in the ass.

Unless he uses it to push amendments, laws and appointments that castrate Florida's judicial system. I'm sure his brother will try the same at the federal level.

[zimv20]

the "solution" is to declare terri a terrorist and take her into custody. then she can be moved to a foreign country and put back on life support.

national security and all.

[zimv20]

the "solution" is to declare terri a terrorist and take her into custody.
and look what i just found (http://news.tbo.com/news/MGBXR0RXN6E.html). not as cynical as the military option, but still...

DCF Considering Taking Schiavo Into Its Custody

TALLAHASSEE - The Department of Children & Families said Wednesday morning it is considering invoking its right under Florida statute to provide protective services to certain ``vulnerable adults'' and applying it to the Terri Schiavo case.

In a brief conversation with reporters, Secretary Lucy Hadi said the department is considering all options, but specifically pointed to a provision that she said would allow the department to take a vulnerable person into its custody without prior judicial approval.

The provision states: ``[if] a person is likely to incur a risk of death or serious physical injury if such person is not immediately removed from the premises, then the representative of the department shall transport or arrange for the transportation of the vulnerable adult to an appropriate medical or protective services facility in order to provide emergency protective services.''

The department would first have to file a petition with the court, but could act before the court is able to schedule a hearing.

Asked whether DCF would be hindered by years of litigation that have upheld the right of Michael Schiavo, Terri's husband, to remove her feeding tube, Hadi said: ``We're not required to look at prior judicial proceedings.''

Meanwhile, Bobby Schindler, Terri Schiavo's brother, lobbied state senators to seek their support for a bill that they hope would lead to the reinsertion of Terri's feeding tube.

[Thomas Veil]

Holy crap, they are getting desperate, aren't they?

My guess would be that Michael Schiavo's lawyer would file his own motion...for a restraining order against the DCF. He's certainly got plenty of legal bases on which to stand.

(*Sigh.*) Every time you think this story is as pathetic as it can possibly get.... :(

[IJ Reilly]

Meanwhile, MMFA caught Pat Buchanan suggesting that George Bush order federal marshals to forcibly remove Shiavo from the hospice and place her back on life support in defiance of every court in the land.

http://clips.mediamatters.org/video/hardball-200503240005.mov

Of course, back when federal marshals were enforcing a court's order by collecting Elian Gonzales, Buchanan railed about how that was "a police-state tactic one associates with a Communist tyranny, not the United States."

Are we scared yet? I mean, really scared?

[Thomas Veil]

(*Sigh.*) Every time you think this story is as pathetic as it can possibly get.... :(Oh boy. As if I needed to back myself up...

ABC World News Tonight reports that Terri Schiavo's parents claim that, last Friday, they heard her tell them, "I want to live."

I swear to God...The Daily Show can't make up stuff like this. I mean, they're telling us that their mentally-incapacitated daughter was doing a Susan Hayward impression (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0051758/?fr=c2l0ZT1kZnxteD0yMHxsbT01MDB8dHQ9b258ZmI9dXxwbj0wfHE9aSB3YW50IHRvIGxpdmV8aHRtbD0xfG5tPW9u;fc=1;ft =20;fm=1) last week??

I...I...... I got nothin' else. This is just too weird for words. :eek:

[mactastic]

Of course, back when federal marshals were enforcing a court's order by collecting Elian Gonzales, Buchanan railed about how that was "a police-state tactic one associates with a Communist tyranny, not the United States."

And of course the big distinction between these cases (among other things Buchanan convienently ignores) is that in the Elian Gonzales case the marshalls were used to enforce a legitimate court order, but if they are used in this case it would be to defy a legitimate court order.

[dsharits]

And what about Waco?

[mactastic]

Ohh so now you're defending cop-killers daniel?

Remember, Waco was also an attempt to enforce a legitimate court order. Sure the people in charge bungled it all to hell, but that doesn't change the underlying fact.

I suppose you also defend Richard Meywes (http://www.wilmingtonstar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050325/APN/503251053&cachetime=5) actions?

A North Carolina man was charged by the FBI on Friday with offering a $250,000 bounty for the murder of Michael Schiavo, the husband of a brain-damaged Florida woman dying in a hospice after years of legal wrangling with her parents.

Richard Alan Meywes was arrested without incident at his home in Fairview, the FBI said. Tim Stutheit, an FBI spokesman in Charlotte, declined to give Meywes' age.

Meywes was charged in Tampa, Fla., with murder for hire and with the transmission of interstate threatening communications. He was being held in the Buncombe County Detention Center and faces a U.S. Magistrate's hearing Monday in Asheville. He will eventually be brought to Tampa to face the charges against him, the FBI said.

The suspect could not be reached for comment. His name was not listed in several published and online telephone directories.

Meywes is accused of sending an e-mail putting a $250,000 bounty "on the head of Michael Schiavo" and another $50,000 to eliminate a judge who denied a request to intervene in the Schiavo case, the FBI said in a prepared statement. The FBI did not identify the judge.

"It is my understanding that whoever eliminates Michael Schiavo from the plant while inflicting as much pain and suffering that he can bear stands to be paid this reward in cash," the e-mail said, according to a text of the message contained in an affidavit prepared by Tampa FBI agent A.J. Gilman.

[zimv20]

the "solution" is to declare terri a terrorist and take her into custody. then she can be moved to a foreign country and put back on life support.

national security and all.
and closer still (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/11233240.htm)


Police 'showdown' averted

Hours after a judge ordered that Terri Schiavo was not to be removed from her hospice, a team of state agents were en route to seize her and have her feeding tube reinserted -- but they stopped short when local police told them they would enforce the judge's order, The Herald has learned.

Agents of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement told police in Pinellas Park, the small town where Schiavo lies at Hospice Woodside, on Thursday that they were on the way to take her to a hospital to resume her feeding.

For a brief period, local police, who have officers at the hospice to keep protesters out, prepared for what sources called ``a showdown.''

In the end, the squad from the FDLE and the Department of Children & Families backed down, apparently concerned about confronting local police outside the hospice.

''We told them that unless they had the judge with them when they came, they were not going to get in,'' said a source with the local police.

''The FDLE called to say they were en route to the scene,'' said an official with the city police who requested anonymity. ``When the sheriff's department and our department told them they could not enforce their order, they backed off.''

The incident,known only to a few and related to The Herald by three different sources involved in Thursday's events, underscores the intense emotion and murky legal terrain that the Schiavo case has created. It also shows that agencies answering directly to Gov. Jeb Bush had planned to use a wrinkle in Florida law that would have allowed them to legally get around the judge's order. The exception in the law allows public agencies to freeze a judge's order whenever an agency appeals it.

CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS

Participants in the high-stakes test of wills, who spoke with The Herald on the condition of anonymity, said they believed the standoff could ultimately have led to a constitutional crisis and a confrontation between dueling lawmen.

''There were two sets of law enforcement officers facing off, waiting for the other to blink,'' said one official with knowledge of Thursday morning's activities.

In jest, one official said local police discussed ``whether we had enough officers to hold off the National Guard.''

''It was kind of a showdown on the part of the locals and the state police,'' the official said. ``It it was not too long after that Jeb Bush was on TV saying that, evidently, he doesn't have as much authority as people think.''

State officials on Friday vigorously denied the notion that any ''showdown'' occurred.

(more)

[zimv20]

the hypocrisy wagon rolls on. link (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-delay27mar27,0,5710023.story?coll=la-home-headlines)


DeLay Family Outcome Different From Schiavo's

CANYON LAKE, Texas — A family tragedy that unfolded in a Texas hospital during the fall of 1988 was a private ordeal — without judges, emergency sessions of Congress or the debate raging outside Terri Schiavo's Florida hospice.

The patient then was a 65-year-old drilling contractor, badly injured in a freak accident at his home. Among the family members keeping vigil at Brooke Army Medical Center was a grieving junior congressman — Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas).

More than 16 years ago, far from the political passions that have defined the Schiavo controversy, the DeLay family endured its own wrenching end-of-life crisis. The man in a coma, kept alive by intravenous lines and oxygen equipment, was DeLay's father, Charles Ray DeLay.

Then, freshly reelected to a third term in the House, the 41-year-old DeLay waited, all but helpless, for the verdict of doctors.

Today, as House Majority Leader, DeLay has teamed with his Senate counterpart, Bill Frist (R-Tenn.), to champion political intervention in the Schiavo case. They pushed emergency legislation through Congress to shift the legal case from Florida state courts to the federal judiciary.

And DeLay is among the strongest advocates of keeping the woman, who doctors say has been in a persistent vegetative state for 15 years, connected to her feeding tube. DeLay has denounced Schiavo's husband, as well as judges, for committing what he calls "an act of barbarism" in removing the tube.

In 1988, however, there was no such fiery rhetoric as the congressman quietly joined the sad family consensus to let his father die.

"There was no point to even really talking about it," Maxine DeLay, the congressman's 81-year-old widowed mother, recalled in an interview last week. "There was no way [Charles] wanted to live like that. Tom knew — we all knew — his father wouldn't have wanted to live that way."

Doctors advised that he would "basically be a vegetable," said the congressman's aunt, JoAnne DeLay.

When his father's kidneys failed, the DeLay family decided against connecting him to a dialysis machine. "Extraordinary measures to prolong life were not initiated," said his medical report, citing "agreement with the family's wishes." His bedside chart carried the instruction: "Do not resuscitate."

On Dec. 14, 1988, the DeLay patriarch "expired with his family in attendance."

"The situation faced by the congressman's family was entirely different than Terri Schiavo's," said a spokesman for the majority leader, who declined requests for an interview.

"The only thing keeping her alive is the food and water we all need to survive. His father was on a ventilator and other machines to sustain him," said Dan Allen, DeLay's press aide.

There were also these similarities: Both stricken patients were severely brain-damaged. Both were incapable of surviving without medical assistance. Both were said to have expressed a desire to be spared from being kept alive by artificial means. And neither of them had a living will.

This previously unpublished account of the majority leader's personal brush with life-ending decisions was assembled from court files, medical records and interviews with family members.

(more)

[Desertrat]

zim, the problem with giving the Hypocrite label to such as DeLay is this: Like you or me, all people base their actions and statements on the information they receive. As I understand it, the Schiavo parents have been drum-beating that she's aware enough to express a desire to live. Apparently they've been among those casting aspersions on the husband as to possible misbehavior.

If this is the sort of information which has been given to Jeb Bush, DeLay et al, it seems to me their behavior is more understandable.

I'm not at all saying this is the way it is; but with the charges and counter-charges which have been made, "truth" has sorta disappeared. It all strikes me as just another American teapot tempest, and a bunch of folks wind up with egg on their faces--and usually from bad info.

It strikes me that one of the larger flaws we see today in high muckety-mucks is the inability to say, "I don't have enough information to have an opinion."

'Rat

[pseudobrit]

zim, the problem with giving the Hypocrite label to such as DeLay is this: Like you or me, all people base their actions and statements on the information they receive. As I understand it, the Schiavo parents have been drum-beating that she's aware enough to express a desire to live. Apparently they've been among those casting aspersions on the husband as to possible misbehavior.

If this is the sort of information which has been given to Jeb Bush, DeLay et al, it seems to me their behavior is more understandable.

I'm not at all saying this is the way it is; but with the charges and counter-charges which have been made, "truth" has sorta disappeared. It all strikes me as just another American teapot tempest, and a bunch of folks wind up with egg on their faces--and usually from bad info.

It strikes me that one of the larger flaws we see today in high muckety-mucks is the inability to say, "I don't have enough information to have an opinion."

'Rat

This is why we have courts. The parties involved have had more than adequate access to them.

[IJ Reilly]

You've just stated the primary reason why the hypocrite label is so appropriate applied to DeLay. When it came to making the exact same decision, the DeLay family based it on what they felt his father would have wanted, and the diagnosis of the doctors. And they did it privately, as most of us think it should be. The only real difference between the DeLay family's decision and the Schiavo case is that her parents decided to fight Michael Shiavo's clear custody rights in an endless series of court battle and aided by a compliant and intrusive state legislature, governor, Congress and president -- with incidentally about the same likelihood of success as Terri Shiavo jumping up out of bed and singing an aria.

That's precisely why DeLay is such a terrible hypocrite. He wants one thing for his family and another for somebody else's. The only difference is the politics. Like all good hypocrites, he acts in his own best interests, not out of principle.

You should read the entire article. Of equal interest, the DeLay family filed a product liability lawsuit in connection with his father's injury -- and they collected.

[mactastic]

zim, the problem with giving the Hypocrite label to such as DeLay is this: Like you or me, all people base their actions and statements on the information they receive. As I understand it, the Schiavo parents have been drum-beating that she's aware enough to express a desire to live. Apparently they've been among those casting aspersions on the husband as to possible misbehavior.

If this is the sort of information which has been given to Jeb Bush, DeLay et al, it seems to me their behavior is more understandable.

I'm not at all saying this is the way it is; but with the charges and counter-charges which have been made, "truth" has sorta disappeared. It all strikes me as just another American teapot tempest, and a bunch of folks wind up with egg on their faces--and usually from bad info.

It strikes me that one of the larger flaws we see today in high muckety-mucks is the inability to say, "I don't have enough information to have an opinion."

'Rat

I'm sorry 'Rat, but you're wrong on this one. Read up on who amongst Congress pushed this issue. You might be able to convince me that the rank-and-file of the GOP are making the mistake of jumping onboard without all the facts once you read about how fast this hit them with the talking points being distributed and the issue developing around them (and without consultation) as fast as it did, but you are talking about one of the two guys who have led the charge in Congress on this issue. Not only has DeLay led the charge along with Frist, but he has made accusations against the character of Michael Schaivo. Now, if he's working off the heresay of the parents of Terri Schaivo without confirming it he's dumber than those who listened to Achmed Chalabi and swallowed his story hook line and sinker which would surely make him unfit to lead the House. The other possibility is that he's making those accusations for political gain. He's no innocent in this matter. If anything happens to Michael Schaivo people like DeLay's conscience should pain them greatly. But I'm sure it won't.

In my book if you lead the charge, you better have your facts straight or face the consequences. Although these days that appears to only apply to Dan Rather and not the GOP.

[dsharits]

the hypocrisy wagon rolls on. link (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-delay27mar27,0,5710023.story?coll=la-home-headlines)
Nice try, but no. A few years ago, my grandfather had stomach cancer and was unable to eat. He was put on a feeding tube that sustained him. Without it, he would have died. Was he on life support? Should we have pulled the tube from him? Don't try to make comparisons between basic nutrition and life support, because they are not the same thing. If your family cut off your food supply, I bet you would die too.

[zimv20]

Nice try, but no. A few years ago, my grandfather had stomach cancer and was unable to eat. He was put on a feeding tube that sustained him. Without it, he would have died. Was he on life support? Should we have pulled the tube from him? Don't try to make comparisons between basic nutrition and life support, because they are not the same thing. If your family cut off your food supply, I bet you would die too.
(gasp) are you tom delay?!?!

[pseudobrit]

Nice try, but no. A few years ago, my grandfather had stomach cancer and was unable to eat. He was put on a feeding tube that sustained him. Without it, he would have died.

Is he a vegetable? 'Cause otherwise your experience is irrelevant to the Schaivo case.

Was he on life support? Should we have pulled the tube from him? Don't try to make comparisons between basic nutrition and life support, because they are not the same thing. If your family cut off your food supply, I bet you would die too.

So if you die without the "basic nutrition" provided by a feeding tube, how is it not life support?

[zimv20]

Nice try, but no. A few years ago, my grandfather had stomach cancer and was unable to eat. He was put on a feeding tube that sustained him. Without it, he would have died. Was he on life support? Should we have pulled the tube from him? Don't try to make comparisons between basic nutrition and life support, because they are not the same thing. If your family cut off your food supply, I bet you would die too.
btw, Mr. Reading Comprehension, what does any of that have to do with the delay story to which i linked?

it's interesting to me that, it doesn't matter what people post to you, you respond w/ the same stuff every time.

[dsharits]

Is he a vegetable? 'Cause otherwise your experience is irrelevant to the Schaivo case.
You have no proof that she is a vegetable. Can vegetables move, make sounds, and spend time with their families?


So if you die without the "basic nutrition" provided by a feeding tube, how is it not life support?
If you die without the basic nutrition of what you stuff into your face, how is that not life support (by your definition)?

[IJ Reilly]

btw, Mr. Reading Comprehension, what does any of that have to do with the delay story to which i linked?

it's interesting to me that, it doesn't matter what people post to you, you respond w/ the same stuff every time.

And let's not miss the really important point here: the decision was made by the family, presumably on the basis of the individual's expressed wishes and the medical diagnosis, without the intrusive intervention of outsiders. Once again, the crass hypocrisy is starkly evident: the religious Right wants one thing for themselves and quite another for others.

[zimv20]

You have no proof that she is a vegetable. Can vegetables move, make sounds, and spend time with their families?

bad analogy alert!

you're clearly no doctor, and i strongly suspect you have only the most tenuous of grasps on the basic tenets of science. face it, you're simply not prepared to form an educated opinion on this matter, much less present a logical case to defend your position.

[IJ Reilly]

You have no proof that she is a vegetable. Can vegetables move, make sounds, and spend time with their families?

You have no "proof" of anything. You are not a doctor. You are not a member of this family. You completely lack any level of appropriate knowledge or any standing. Butt out already -- it's none of your business.

[pseudobrit]

You have no proof that she is a vegetable. Can vegetables move, make sounds, and spend time with their families?

A corpse can move, make sounds and spend time with their family.

Numerous courts have used the many diagnoses of respected physicians who have performed clinical tests to come to the medical consensus that she is a vegetable. You, sir, have no proof that she is not a vegetable.

If you die without the basic nutrition of what you stuff into your face, how is that not life support (by your definition)?

Whoa, now. We're using your definition here. I asked a question about your definition, and you've made quite an accusatory leap.

Is a feeding tube inserted into one's stomach the same as "the basic nutrition of what you stuff into your face"? Or is it artificial life support?

[dsharits]

btw, Mr. Reading Comprehension, what does any of that have to do with the delay story to which i linked?
Just the fact that Mr. DeLay was on real life support, and Terri and my grandfather were not. I was pointing out the irrelevence of your story, in case you couldn't figure that out.

it's interesting to me that, it doesn't matter what people post to you, you respond w/ the same stuff every time.
Why should I change what I post? You haven't been able to prove that Terri's wish was to starve to death. You haven't been able to prove that Michael Schiavo's attempted murder didn't put her in this position. You haven't even proven that she is not aware of her surroundings and able to hear, see, and even communicate to a degree. All you want to point out is that a few doctors (paid by Michael Schiavo) say that "her brain has turned to liquid" and "she is just a vegetable." Are you telling me that by reading a few articles, you know exactly what state her brain is in, and what she can feel, and what life is like for her? The doctors can't even know that for sure! They have said themselves that they don't fully understand consciousness. The only person that knows what state she's in is Terri Schiavo! With the DeLay situation, there were no unanswered questions. With this case, there are no answers, yet you still support killing her because of what you think is her wish. Were you there when she collapsed? Were you there when she supposedly told Michael that she wanted to be starved to death? NO! How could you not want to investigate this further when there are so many questions left unanswered? Yes, 23 judges have come to the same ruling time and time again, but each one built off the ruling of the last judge, so this case has never had a fresh start. No deep investigations have been done. You don't know Michael Schiavo's mind and what really happened. You don't know anything except for what the media gives you. You don't even know if you would want to live in that situation, because YOU'RE NOT IN THAT SITUATION!! The only people who know what happened for sure are Michael Schiavo and Terri Schiavo.

[dsharits]

Is a feeding tube inserted into one's stomach the same as "the basic nutrition of what you stuff into your face"? Or is it artificial life support?
All a feeding tube does is bypass the esophagus. It's all the same once it gets to the stomach.

[zimv20]

Why should I change what I post? You haven't been able to prove that Terri's wish was to starve to death. You haven't been able to prove that Michael Schiavo's attempted murder didn't put her in this position. You haven't even proven that she is not aware of her surroundings and able to hear, see, and even communicate to a degree.
i don't have to prove anything. all i'm saying is:
1) i respect the sanctity of marriage and am comfortable w/ having the husband make the decision
2) years of court decisions have sided with the husband
3) it's a private matter and therefore none of my business

you are saying it _is_ the public's interest and you are calling all those court decisions wrong. neither of us were there, but the onus is on you to provide proof that the courts were wrong, since you're the one disagreeing with them. you haven't come close to doing that.

you clearly don't understand even the framing of this discussion, much less the content therein.

[IJ Reilly]

Just the fact that Mr. DeLay was on real life support, and Terri and my grandfather were not. I was pointing out the irrelevence of your story, in case you couldn't figure that out.


Why should I change what I post? You haven't been able to prove that Terri's wish was to starve to death. You haven't been able to prove that Michael Schiavo's attempted murder didn't put her in this position. You haven't even proven that she is not aware of her surroundings and able to hear, see, and even communicate to a degree. All you want to point out is that a few doctors (paid by Michael Schiavo) say that "her brain has turned to liquid" and "she is just a vegetable." Are you telling me that by reading a few articles, you know exactly what state her brain is in, and what she can feel, and what life is like for her? The doctors can't even know that for sure! They have said themselves that they don't fully understand consciousness. The only person that knows what state she's in is Terri Schiavo! With the DeLay situation, there were no unanswered questions. With this case, there are no answers, yet you still support killing her because of what you think is her wish. Were you there when she collapsed? Were you there when she supposedly told Michael that she wanted to be starved to death? NO! How could you not want to investigate this further when there are so many questions left unanswered? Yes, 23 judges have come to the same ruling time and time again, but each one built off the ruling of the last judge, so this case has never had a fresh start. No deep investigations have been done. You don't know Michael Schiavo's mind and what really happened. You don't know anything except for what the media gives you. You don't even know if you would want to live in that situation, because YOU'RE NOT IN THAT SITUATION!! The only people who know what happened for sure are Michael Schiavo and Terri Schiavo.

And neither are you, which is why it's none of your business. It's the family's business, just as it was in the case of your grandfather and Tom DeLay's father. Why is this such a difficult concept?

I suspect it's too late for you, but you might be able to clear your head on this issue if you'd turn off the TV and radio and ignore the Web for a few days, and just think about this issue. Think about whether you'd have wanted outsiders to meddle in your family's decision about the treatment your grandfather, or whether that decision deserved to remain a private one between your family and your doctors. Whatever opinion you come to in this instance should be the one you apply to ever other.

[zimv20]

dsharits, after re-reading some of your posts, i'm becoming concerned about what kind of medical care your parents are getting. could you please post their medical histories, current conditions and any meds or treatment they're currently receiving?

after reviewing it, a few of us will make recommendations for their care. you can trust us, we will be compassionate. we only want what's best for them.

[dsharits]

This case does involve the public's interest, because it will be a big factor in determining whether America will stand by her morals or turn down the same path that the Nazi's did by killing off handicapped people with no living will. This case jumped into the public interest when Michael Schiavo suddenly changed his position without warning and wanted to commit murder, a federal offense. Yes, this case is very much in the interest of the national public, because this is only the beginning. From here, it will only get worse. The Terri Schiavo case has long been out of the private rulings of the home and is of such interest because it will set a precedence for the future.

[skunk]

You're very free with the libellous remarks, aren't you?

[mactastic]

Is libellous some fancy British way of spelling libelous? (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=libelous) :p

Daniel's gone off the deep end now, and it's probably time to invoke Godwin's law since he's sunk low enough to compare us to Nazis. Not to mention his defense of the cop-killers at Waco.

[dsharits]

Is libellous some fancy British way of spelling libelous? (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=libelous) :p

Daniel's gone off the deep end now, and it's probably time to invoke Godwin's law since he's sunk low enough to compare us to Nazis. Not to mention his defense of the cop-killers at Waco.
I'm just pointing out that this is exactly how the Nazi's thought. As far as Waco, I was merely referring to the government (Janet Reno) intervening in that situation when laws were being broken. I never defended cop-killers, you're putting words in my mouth. And no, it doesn't mean that I've gone off the deep end just because I happen to have a sense of morality.

[pseudobrit]

I'm just pointing out that this is exactly how the Nazi's thought.

Nonsense. The Nazis thought exactly what they were told to think.

Which is precisely what you're doing.

[dsharits]

Nonsense. The Nazis thought exactly what they were told to think.

Which is precisely what you're doing.
Oh really, and who told them what to think? Nobody is telling me what to think. I am simply following the law and what I know to be right.

[pseudobrit]

You haven't been able to prove that Terri's wish was to starve to death.

No, but the courts have been convinced that it was not her wish to remain on artificial life support as a vegetable.

You haven't been able to prove that Michael Schiavo's attempted murder didn't put her in this position.

Attempted murder? What the **** are you on about? Please spare us your ******** and defamation.

You haven't even proven that she is not aware of her surroundings and able to hear, see, and even communicate to a degree.

No, but numerous courts at every level with the aid of physicians who performed clinical tests and scans of Mrs. Schaivo have proven to the satisfaction of said courts that she is a vegetable with no awareness of her surroundings and no chance of recovery. It's been 15 goddamned years!

All you want to point out is that a few doctors (paid by Michael Schiavo) say that "her brain has turned to liquid" and "she is just a vegetable."

Michael Schaivo didn't pay for these "few" doctors. You're just a silly liar.

You don't know anything except for what the media gives you.

Funny, because I'm basing my opinion on what the courts, having had access to real unbiased medical views have concluded. The media don't factor in at all. Your "knowledge," however, seems to come from some extremist hack.

[pseudobrit]

Oh really, and who told them what to think? Nobody is telling me what to think. I am simply following the law and what I know to be right.

From where did you get the notion that Michael Schaivo attempted to murder his wife?

[pseudobrit]

The burning question for all the pro-feeding tube crowd has to be what Michael Schindler has to gain from his wife's death. One of the cornerstones of their non-argument is to defame Michael as a murderous, selfish, evil human being.

But the logic doesn't add up:

He's already won malpractice lawsuits. There's no money to be gained.
The state is paying for Terri's care. There's no money to be saved.
He's moved on with his life, starting a new family.

For Mr. Schaivo, it would be infinitely easier for him to divorce Terri, hand over custody to her parents, remarry and move on. If he truly didn't care about Terri, why wouldn't he simply wash his hands of the matter and let the woman rot as a vegetable for the rest of her "life?"

I think he's genuinely doing this for Terri.

[skunk]

Is libellous some fancy British way of spelling libelous? (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=libelous) :p

Yes. Same goes for shovelling.

[IJ Reilly]

I don't judge Michael Shiavo pro or con, nor do I judge his parents. Because it is not my own, I have no right to judge anyone in this family, or to take anyone's side over another. In the event of an irreconcilable dispute, courts of law should decide the facts, and they have -- 25 times. This level of justice is good enough for me, and it should be good enough for anyone.

That being said, I am extremely and deeply offended by dsharits' suggestion that allowing someone to die a natural death in accordance with their own wishes, as established on multiple occasions in a court of law, is murder. This is possibly the most radical statement I have ever heard expressed on this board, and I've heard many that made my head spin. This statement has profound implication which I doubt dsharits or like-minded individuals can begin to comprehend. Whether they appreciate it or not, they are entirely prepared to take end-of-life decisions away from individuals and families, and hand them to the state -- and not just the state as it is expressed by the rule of law, but the state as expressed by a radical few. For others, anyway -- I don't see any evidence that they'd sacrifice these personal freedoms for themselves.

I don't suppose dsharits can be expected to say anything of interest in his defense; if fact, I don't think he has even tried. This all about power, and the perception by the radical Right that they are at least close to corralling the political power required to dictate how everyone in this country lives -- and dies. Now, that's a truly frightening concept, but I suppose we have dsharits to thank for giving us an up-close view of what we're up against.

[dsharits]

The burning question for all the pro-feeding tube crowd has to be what Michael Schindler has to gain from his wife's death. One of the cornerstones of their non-argument is to defame Michael as a murderous, selfish, evil human being.

But the logic doesn't add up:

He's already won malpractice lawsuits. There's no money to be gained.
The state is paying for Terri's care. There's no money to be saved.
He's moved on with his life, starting a new family.

For Mr. Schaivo, it would be infinitely easier for him to divorce Terri, hand over custody to her parents, remarry and move on. If he truly didn't care about Terri, why wouldn't he simply wash his hands of the matter and let the woman rot as a vegetable for the rest of her "life?"

I think he's genuinely doing this for Terri.
What does he have to gain?!? He's trying to keep his butt out of jail! There is strong evidence from doctors that Terri was strangled the night that she collapsed. A heart attack was what the doctors assumed happened, even though there was no evidence or damage to the heart. Several doctors have said that Terri's symptoms are consistent with that of a victim of strangling. The Schindlers brought this up in court, and the judge refused to investigate it. Michael Schiavo filed in 2002 to have Terri's body cremated immediately after her death. She has had two or three potentially deadly infections, which he has refused to have treated and even admitted later on that he knew that they could be fatal. He even illegally posted a Do not Resuscitate order in Terri's medical chart. You seem to keep siding with Michael Schiavo's doctors, but how about this one: He denied the rehab treatment recommended by medical professionals as early as 1993, immediately after he had won the latest malpractice suit. He then went through four more years of trials with the Schindlers over Terri's medical records before he came up with the sudden memory of her supposed wish, which one of his girlfriends testified under oath that he had told her that it was a total lie. He is known to have a long history of anger problems, especially with women. Another one of his girlfriends refused to testify in court for fear of her life. The courts have not gotten the facts, they have simply refused to examine any of the parties involved. No investigations have been done. The logic does add up, you just don't want to see it because you think this is a religious battle simply over the sanctity of life. I am willing to bet that if the Supreme Court decided to get involved, it would have been a criminal case as well.

[pseudobrit]

What does he have to gain?!? He's trying to keep his butt out of jail! There is strong evidence from doctors that Terri was strangled the night that she collapsed. A heart attack was what the doctors assumed happened, even though there was no evidence or damage to the heart. Several doctors have said that Terri's symptoms are consistent with that of a victim of strangling. The Schindlers brought this up in court, and the judge refused to investigate it. Michael Schiavo filed in 2002 to have Terri's body cremated immediately after her death. She has had two or three potentially deadly infections, which he has refused to have treated and even admitted later on that he knew that they could be fatal. He even illegally posted a Do not Resuscitate order in Terri's medical chart. You seem to keep siding with Michael Schiavo's doctors, but how about this one: He denied the rehab treatment recommended by medical professionals as early as 1993, immediately after he had won the latest malpractice suit. He then went through four more years of trials with the Schindlers over Terri's medical records before he came up with the sudden memory of her supposed wish, which one of his girlfriends testified under oath that he had told her that it was a total lie. He is known to have a long history of anger problems, especially with women. Another one of his girlfriends refused to testify in court for fear of her life. The courts have not gotten the facts, they have simply refused to examine any of the parties involved. No investigations have been done. The logic does add up, you just don't want to see it because you think this is a religious battle simply over the sanctity of life. I am willing to bet that if the Supreme Court decided to get involved, it would have been a criminal case as well.

I assume you have reputable sources to back up these claims.

No? Didn't think so.

[dsharits]

I assume you have reputable sources to back up these claims.

No? Didn't think so.
Case Timeline (http://www.terrisfight.org/timeline.html)

[zimv20]

Case Timeline (http://www.terrisfight.org/timeline.html)
i see you're still struggling with the definition of "unbiased."

we're still waiting for your parents' medical records.

[pseudobrit]

Case Timeline (http://www.terrisfight.org/timeline.html)

As I said. Didn't think so.

[IJ Reilly]

It's been a long, long time since I found any new names to add to my ignore list.

[blackfox]

... Nobody is telling me what to think. I am simply following the law and what I know to be right.

Daniel, I have only been following tyhis thread intermittently, so I may have missed important contextual clues to the above quote, but what do you mean by that statement?

Which law(s) are you following exactly? Perhaps more importantly, how is your conduct/morality at all related to Ms. Schaivo's situation?

I am glad you have found a moral certainty with regards to this issue, but your personal opinion again has no relevant application to the issue at hand.

As I have mentioned before, I happen to disagree with you on the Schaivo case, but you are entitled to your opinion.

I am concerned, however, with the fact that for whatever reason, you are unable to recognize or acknowledge the difference between what you feel is morally correct and what is a legitimate legal position/argument.

It is displays of moral certainty and righteousness which lead to absolutism, which is why we have a separation of church and state. The former's absolutist nature is a threat to the pluralistic and unique system of government we chose as America.

Whether you feel this is right or wrong is a right you have that is being guaranteed for you by the very system you choose to attack.

Legal judgements are not bound to be moral, especially as defined by a particular individual's opinion, but to be in accordance with the law and legal precedent.

Your seeming inflexibility and moral certitude at the expense of respecting the institutions (and rights afforded by)of our Democracy, is to blindly walk into the circumstances for a dictatorship.

I am still waiting for your reply reagarding your positions on Capital Punishment and Euthanasia to see what logical consistency you have between them and the issues of the Schaivo case.

[mischief]

What does he have to gain?!? He's trying to keep his butt out of jail! There is strong evidence from doctors that Terri was strangled the night that she collapsed. A heart attack was what the doctors assumed happened, even though there was no evidence or damage to the heart. Several doctors have said that Terri's symptoms are consistent with that of a victim of strangling.

What evidence have you that can be found anywhere but on the one and only website you have linked to so far in nearly twenty posts?

If you'd actually stop and THINK for a few seconds and check THE REST OF THE WEB you may discover that Mr. Schiavo was tried and acquitted.

Do you know the difference between signs and symptoms?

A sign is a physical feature that can be observed by a health practitioner such as bruising, bleeding, distension, discoloration, deformity and so on. Signs are the primary indicators for strangulation. One looks for burst capillaries in and around the eyes in addition to bruising, diformity and discoloration of the throat around the trachea and larynx.

A symptom is a complaint expressed by a patient. Are you saying that at some point during triage, BLS, transport, ALS, trauma assessment, emergency medical care and initial application of life support Terri woke up briefly and said: " Gee, it feels like I was strangled."?

She has had two or three potentially deadly infections, which he has refused to have treated and even admitted later on that he knew that they could be fatal. He even illegally posted a Do not Resuscitate order in Terri's medical chart. You seem to keep siding with Michael Schiavo's doctors, but how about this one: He denied the rehab treatment recommended by medical professionals as early as 1993, immediately after he had won the latest malpractice suit..

All of this is from the one site again I take it? The one her family put up with the tremendous amount of cash they've raised? Find me independant verification chicken little.

He then went through four more years of trials with the Schindlers over Terri's medical records before he came up with the sudden memory of her supposed wish, which one of his girlfriends testified under oath that he had told her that it was a total lie. He is known to have a long history of anger problems, especially with women. Another one of his girlfriends refused to testify in court for fear of her life..

Years of trials. Precisely the point made time and again here. The Judiciary is the one part of government who's job is to directly interpret where the combined history of law meets the combined history of any given expert field. Two dozen judges across local, state, state appellate, state supreme, federal and federal appeals juristictions have all come to the same conclusion: Terri Schiavo has no cognitive function and no quality of life; her husband is the rightful and benign guardian and her sincere attitude before her unfortunate condition was not to be maintained as a morbid shrine to anyone's false hopes.

Considering where the majority of the death threats have been focussed over the course of this case (IE: aimed at friends and family of Mr. Schiavo) I'm not suprised that an acquaintance of his refused to be visibly involved.

The courts have not gotten the facts, they have simply refused to examine any of the parties involved. No investigations have been done. The logic does add up, you just don't want to see it because you think this is a religious battle simply over the sanctity of life. I am willing to bet that if the Supreme Court decided to get involved, it would have been a criminal case as well.

Actually, if you'd check court records (you can, being as you're local and all...) you'd find what many sources (such as NPR) have already reported quite thoroughly: Everything about this has been very thoroughly investigated.

Your assumption/assertion that the courts do not have the "facts" but somehow Terri's parents alone are in possession of them shows a frightening succeptability to "group think".

What you are expressing isn't logic. It's zealotry. It is the precise opposite of logic. Have you applied the scientific method to this? No you haven't. No independant verification, control or broad sampling of data. Your lack of methodology smacks of someone less interested in discerning the truth than in finding someone to hate/blame and something to be angry about.

You are expressing all the symptoms (behavioural changes and forms) associated with indoctrination/institutionalization. Further, you show symptoms of some form of dissasociative mental trauma. How's your home life? Parents divorce recently? Sister had an abortion? I really am curious. It seems you are in real need of unbiased, non-hateful compassion. I'd love to help you deal with whatever it is in your own life that has you so in need of hating someone.

If the US Supreme Court were involved they'd find as they are mandated to: as to whether or not a given case is Constitutionally correct. In that, their one and only mandate they would likely find as all previous courts have.

[zimv20]

link (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/politics/29donate.html?)


WASHINGTON, March 28 - The parents of Terri Schiavo have authorized a conservative direct-mailing firm to sell a list of their financial supporters, making it likely that thousands of strangers moved by her plight will receive a steady stream of solicitations from anti-abortion and conservative groups.

"These compassionate pro-lifers donated toward Bob Schindler's legal battle to keep Terri's estranged husband from removing the feeding tube from Terri," says a description of the list on the Web site of the firm, Response Unlimited, which is asking $150 a month for 6,000 names and $500 a month for 4,000 e-mail addresses of people who responded last month to an e-mail plea from Ms. Schiavo's father. "These individuals are passionate about the way they value human life, adamantly oppose euthanasia and are pro-life in every sense of the word!"

Privacy experts said the sale of the list was legal and even predictable, if ghoulish.

"I think it's amusing," said Robert Gellman, a privacy and information policy consultant. "I think it's absolutely classic America. Everything is for sale in America, every type of personal information."

Executives of Response Unlimited declined to comment. Gary McCullough, director of the Christian Communication Network and a spokesman for Ms. Schiavo's parents, confirmed that Mr. Schindler had agreed to let Response Unlimited rent out the list as part of a deal for the firm to send an e-mail solicitation raising money on the family's behalf.


Pamela Hennessy, an unpaid spokeswoman for the Schindlers, said she was initially appalled when she learned of the list's existence.

"It is possibly the most distasteful thing I have ever seen," Ms. Hennessy said. "Everybody is making a buck off of her."

Ms. Hennessy, who operates the Schindlers' Web site, www.terrisfight.org, said the family had not released any of the names or e-mail addresses gathered there. "Obviously these people are enterprising, and they are taking advantage of this very desperate father," she said.

[Blue Velvet]

link (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/politics/29donate.html?)



That is surely one of the most sleaziest, whorish things I've read about this interminable case.

How much lower can people stoop? I'm sure we're yet to find out...

[dsharits]

Well, Michael Schiavo's murder is now complete (http://tbo.com/).

[Thomas Veil]

Well, Michael Schiavo's murder is now complete (http://tbo.com/).Oh, nice. Very, very nice. :mad:

[Blue Velvet]

How much lower can people stoop? I'm sure we're yet to find out...


dsharits: Well, Michael Schiavo's murder is now complete.

[Taft]

dsharits: Well, Michael Schiavo's murder is now complete.

Ha!

:)

Taft

[mischief]

Well, Michael Schiavo's murder is now complete (http://tbo.com/).

Double post. Poor taste. Slander. Zealotry.

Even Winky refuses to dignify your slanderous drivel with a well deserved faceful.

The man just lost his wife, who has realistically been in the process of death for fifteen years.

[mactastic]

One of those nutbags murdered Michael Schaivo??? :eek:

[skunk]

Doesn't surprise me.


;)

[Blue Velvet]

It crossed my mind on the way home from work that this may not be the end of the whole palaver unless they cremate her and dispose of her remains in a secret location.

Unwelcome visitors to Ms. Schiavo's grave could be a real nuisance, especially on the anniversary of her death.

[zimv20]

Unwelcome visitors to Ms. Schiavo's grave could be a real nuisance, especially on the anniversary of her death.
you mean with like a 6 foot drill bit and feeding tube?

[zimv20]

Well, Michael Schiavo's murder is now complete (http://tbo.com/).
hey daniel

if he turns up dead, i'm going to point the FBI towards this thread and your 'murder' post.

[Thomas Veil]

you mean with like a 6 foot drill bit and feeding tube?I can see it now. The Right-to-Lifers around the grave, doing the parrot routine: "She's not dead, she's just resting."

[mischief]

This whole thing seems to revolve around Miracle Max:

"There's a difference between all dead and mostly dead."

[Thomas Veil]

This is continuing to be nasty even after she's gone.

(Schindler family lawyer) Gibbs said the Schindler family was focused on Terri Schiavo, not Michael.

"The family is concerned about Terri," he said. "They're concerned about her legacy. I think it's distasteful that Michael Schiavo seems fixated on himself." Link (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/01/schiavo/index.html)

That's just cruelly disingenuous. There's worse:

"The actions on the part of the Florida court and the U.S. Supreme Court are unconscionable," Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Pennsylvania, said Thursday, attacking judges who repeatedly had refused to order tube-fed nourishment restored to the brain-damaged woman.

"This loss happened because our legal system did not protect the people who need protection most, and that will change," House Majority Leader Tom DeLay added in a statement issued hours after Schiavo's death at a Florida hospice.

"The time will come for the men responsible for this to answer for their behavior," said the Texan. DeLay was a driving force behind legislation Congress passed two weeks ago that gave federal courts jurisdiction in an attempt to save Schiavo's life.

Asked later at a news conference about possible impeachment proceedings against judges in the case, DeLay said, "There's plenty of time to look into that."Link (http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/04/01/politics.schiavo.ap/index.html)

What are they planning to do, take away our spouses' rights to carry out our wishes? Define "death" so narrowly that millions of people will find their Living Wills meaningless, or at least challengeable in court? Harass judges into giving them the ruling they want, instead of following the law?

I sure hope cooler heads prevail, and nuts like Santorum and DeLay aren't allowed to lead Congress into some half-***ed new assault on our right to control our own fate.

But then, ABC News said the other day that several state legislatures are also taking up the battle to change the current laws...and look what the states did to gay rights this past election.