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View Full Version : Lion: TRIM only for Apple-branded SSD's?




ThomasJL
Jun 7, 2011, 04:26 PM
Does anyone here have solid proof that Lion will offer TRIM support on non-Apple SSD's?

Snow Leopard offers TRIM support, but only for very recent Apple-branded SSD's.

It would be extremely easy for Apple to enable TRIM support for non-Apple SSD's on Snow Leopard, but Apple does not want to do that. It seems as if Apple is practicing planned obsolescence by not enabling TRIM support for non-Apple SSD's on Snow Leopard.

Windows 7 has had TRIM support for all brands of SSD's since its initial release. [Cue the Apple fanboys who will tell me to just use Windows 7 then and to quit whining.]

I'm only happy for Apple if they sell more computers and become more prosperous, but not if they do so by shafting consumers by practicing planned obsolescence.



DustinT
Jun 8, 2011, 09:31 AM
I understand that support for trim in the DP4 version is the same as Snow Leopard. This is not the final version of Lion though, so things can change between now and then.

TomRadfahrer
Jun 8, 2011, 03:07 PM
I remember a statement of Apple that they are afraid to TRIM an SSD they do not know, because this may result in data loss.

SSDs are in a very early stage; hardware, controllers, drivers and firmware are somewhat experimental. In this situation you expect from Apple to guarantee, that their driver works with any SSD hardware you purchase from the wild.

Just search for "Windows 7" + "SSD" + "trouble" and you will see, what the consequence could be.

ScubaCinci
Jun 8, 2011, 09:19 PM
Uhm, I wouldn't say that they are 'experimental' but still definitely still and emerging technology. Apple is very anal about hardware certifications which is why you rarely see hardware incompatibilities that are frequent on PC's (I have 6 PC's so I know this well).

KJmoon117
Jun 9, 2011, 09:47 AM
Still I wish they had enabled this feature on Lion, or even Snow Leopard. I'm holding out on buying an Intel 320 to get legit TRIM support.

Hopefully the final version will include TRIM support.. :S

TomRadfahrer
Jun 9, 2011, 01:02 PM
Maybe not the very first version of Lion. But sooner or later Apple will need to support SSDs connected via ThunderBolt to a Mac. This will force Apple to evaluate a larger set of SSDs (e.g. Intel SSDs) and add support for them.

The basic idea of Thunderbold is, that it makes no difference whether a piece of hardware is connected directly to the motherboard or via the ThunderBold cable. So SSD support for ThunderBold will cover SSDs connected to an internal SATA port, too.

Maybe this support comes with Lion 10.7.1 ?

wikus
Jun 9, 2011, 01:11 PM
Maybe not the very first version of Lion. But sooner or later Apple will need to support SSDs connected via ThunderBolt to a Mac. This will force Apple to evaluate a larger set of SSDs (e.g. Intel SSDs) and add support for them.

The basic idea of Thunderbold is, that it makes no difference whether a piece of hardware is connected directly to the motherboard or via the ThunderBold cable. So SSD support for ThunderBold will cover SSDs connected to an internal SATA port, too.

Maybe this support comes with Lion 10.7.1 ?

It should have been a standard implementation in 10.6. Apple has been selling macbook airs with SSD drives for 3 years, but the drives themselves have been available longer and have been used in macs since for those who have upgraded on their own, especially recently. Any support given for TRIM via thunderbolt will mean support via SATA.

No excuse to not support TRIM in 10.7

ScubaCinci
Jun 9, 2011, 02:12 PM
Maybe not the very first version of Lion. But sooner or later Apple will need to support SSDs connected via ThunderBolt to a Mac. This will force Apple to evaluate a larger set of SSDs (e.g. Intel SSDs) and add support for them.

The basic idea of Thunderbold is, that it makes no difference whether a piece of hardware is connected directly to the motherboard or via the ThunderBold cable. So SSD support for ThunderBold will cover SSDs connected to an internal SATA port, too.

Maybe this support comes with Lion 10.7.1 ?

Doubtful that TB will support TRIM. Currently (for any OS) TRIM is only supported on SATA connected OS drives only. Any ancillary SSDs connected to the system are not subject to TRIM. Garbage Collection will still work as it is OS agnostic and a function of the controller/drive.

Apple Expert
Jun 9, 2011, 02:34 PM
Does Windows 7 support trim?

wikus
Jun 9, 2011, 02:35 PM
Does Windows 7 support trim?

Its supported TRIM since its initial release 2 years ago.

tkermit
Jun 9, 2011, 04:36 PM
I've said so before, but I really hope developers are filing bug reports about this, or at least are sending in enhancement requests!

ScubaCinci
Jun 9, 2011, 06:22 PM
Its supported TRIM since its initial release 2 years ago.

As does Windows Server 2008 R2 and many Linux variants.

Psilocybin
Jun 9, 2011, 06:41 PM
I report every problem I come across

Jeff42037
Jun 9, 2011, 06:45 PM
If I buy the exact same model Toshiba SSD found in MBP's for my 2011 MBP 15.4. Will TRIM Support Work?

mrapplegate
Jun 9, 2011, 06:46 PM
I've said so before, but I really hope developers are filing bug reports about this, or at least are sending in enhancement requests!

For what TRIM support? 1. It is not a bug. 2. I think Apple is aware the public wants TRIM support for non-Apple SSDs.

tkermit
Jun 9, 2011, 06:57 PM
For what TRIM support? 1. It is not a bug. 2. I think Apple is aware the public wants TRIM support for non-Apple SSDs.

A bit of additional pressure can't hurt. I wouldn't be so sure about your second point.

mrapplegate
Jun 9, 2011, 07:04 PM
A bit of additional pressure can't hurt. I wouldn't be so sure about your second point.

I'm pretty confident Apple knows.

tkermit
Jun 9, 2011, 07:07 PM
I'm pretty confident Apple knows.

The issue certainly doesn't seem to have the highest priority over there.

mrapplegate
Jun 9, 2011, 07:17 PM
The issue certainly doesn't seem to have the highest priority over there.
I'm sure it's all about the money.

Bottomsup
Jun 9, 2011, 09:06 PM
slightly different question about TRIM support. If I have a bunch of files on my machine and delete them, etc.. will Lion mark those sectors as "unused" and wipe them even though they were deleted before Lion was installed?

I hope my question makes sense

McGiord
Jun 9, 2011, 09:11 PM
Why TRIM is so important?

ScubaCinci
Jun 9, 2011, 10:22 PM
Why TRIM is so important?

A quicj and dirty explanation:
> SSDs are organized by blocks
> Once a block is written to, whether full or not, that block becomes 'dirty' and must be erased before it can be programmed again.
> Once all blocks become dirty, before any writes can occur to a block, an erase must occur which dramatically slows things down.
> TRIM tracks blocks that are dirty but not used (i.e. files you deleted) and will erase those blocks during idle time so (theoretically) you never run into a scenario where have to do an erase when attempting to write.

slightly different question about TRIM support. If I have a bunch of files on my machine and delete them, etc.. will Lion mark those sectors as "unused" and wipe them even though they were deleted before Lion was installed?

I hope my question makes sense

Yes and no.

The 'no' part - The OS doesn't track dirty blocks, the drive controller does. The OS just passes the command to execute TRIM which is handled by the controller.

The 'yes' part - yes TRIM will wipe these deleted files because again it's the comtroller, not the OS.

Bottomsup
Jun 10, 2011, 09:52 AM
Yes and no.

The 'no' part - The OS doesn't track dirty blocks, the drive controller does. The OS just passes the command to execute TRIM which is handled by the controller.

The 'yes' part - yes TRIM will wipe these deleted files because again it's the comtroller, not the OS.

Thanks so i interpret this to mean that currently in 10.6.7 those blocks are not being deleted because I don't have TRIM. When I'm in 10.7 the OS will send a command to tell the controller to clean deleted blocks, but I think you are also saying that the blocks that were flagged dirty by the controller in 10.6.7 before TRIM was available in the OS will remain as is....or will LION retroactively send a TRIM command for past deleted files/blocks?

I guess what I'm getting at is that I think performance could be improved with a clean install of 10.7 if most of the drive has dirty sectors on it that were not previously cleaned up via the TRIM command. I suppose if I leve the drive as is and upgrade to LION it will eventually sort itself out via natural create,delete,TRIM clean, etc..

McGiord
Jun 10, 2011, 12:28 PM
And what about over provisioning? Garbage Collection?

ScubaCinci
Jun 10, 2011, 01:48 PM
Overprovisioning depends on the drive. Some have more than others and there isn't anything you can change about it. You can partition off more space for a spare area but that's about it. Garbage collection is OS agnostic and is handled by the drive controller but without TRIM it can only maintain things for a finite period - again, this period is drive dependent.

macrem
Jun 10, 2011, 01:57 PM
My non-Apple SSD has native trim support & I am pretty sure it's doing its job as I have transferred several terabytes to/from it and my benchmarks have remained stable.

TomRadfahrer
Jun 10, 2011, 01:59 PM
As I understand TRIM it increases the number of erases some sectors will see (the so-called write amplification). It depends upon the controller algorithms but with bad controllers the same sector is erased over and over again and lifetime of the SSD is reduced significantly. Therefore someone should have tested carefully, whether TRIM is a good thing for a certain drive or not. If your preferred computer supplier does not recommend TRIM for all possible SSD you should consider this as a good hint, not as a trick.

As I said earlier, SSD technology is not mature. I remember the first days of hard discs, when you needed a driver in your OS who was aware of the specific model of hard disc. Today you can connect any SATA hard disc to any SATA motherboard, but it will take some more years until SSD is as mature as this.

ScubaCinci
Jun 10, 2011, 03:03 PM
As I understand TRIM it increases the number of erases some sectors will see (the so-called write amplification). It depends upon the controller algorithms but with bad controllers the same sector is erased over and over again and lifetime of the SSD is reduced significantly. Therefore someone should have tested carefully, whether TRIM is a good thing for a certain drive or not. If your preferred computer supplier does not recommend TRIM for all possible SSD you should consider this as a good hint, not as a trick.

With normal usage, SSD's will last at least 5 years and likely closer to 10. how long do you keep your drives before upgrading?

dagamer34
Jun 11, 2011, 12:03 PM
How do you know TRIM support is "iffy"? I used the TRIM enabler on my new 240GB OCZ Vertex 3 drive and it caused lockups every 1-2 minutes for about 10 seconds. That's why it's not enabled by default.

Atarikid
Jun 11, 2011, 01:26 PM
FYI I have a Intel 320 120GB SSD in my Macbook Pro for about 5 month now. Its still fast as lighting. Booting takes about 8-10 seconds, copying files is still fast, launching apps is much faster, ..

msjones
Jun 12, 2011, 01:20 PM
I have a Kingston SSD in my MacBook and there is no TRIM support in Lion DP4 for my drive.

However the TRIM enabler does work in Lion to enable this. Hopefully apple will eventually add it for all drives, but for now there is a working fix.

Atarikid
Jun 12, 2011, 02:34 PM
I read many issues when enabling the Trim hack for OSX. Most users complain it is much slower switched on.
atm Trim is switched off and running for 5 month very smooth. I think it is important to always keep about 20% free space to keep it smooth. Not sure about that though.

fattire357
Jun 12, 2011, 02:54 PM
I read many issues when enabling the Trim hack for OSX. Most users complain it is much slower switched on.
atm Trim is switched off and running for 5 month very smooth. I think it is important to always keep about 20% free space to keep it smooth. Not sure about that though.

It's actually hit or miss depending on the SSD. I had zero issues with TRIM enabler on my Hackintosh, however it is true that a number of people have had issues.

Just saying you can't just assume that it doesn't work. Heck, it worked for the guy that initially released it...

awer25
Jun 12, 2011, 07:17 PM
Does anyone know if running Windows 7 via Bootcamp overnight would allow the system to do TRIM garbage collection on the entire drive, or just on the Windows partition? I would think the former but I have no solid evidence.

msjones
Jun 13, 2011, 12:49 AM
Does anyone know if running Windows 7 via Bootcamp overnight would allow the system to do TRIM garbage collection on the entire drive, or just on the Windows partition? I would think the former but I have no solid evidence.

I am unsure about this. Does TRIM do the data erase using the filesystem type or is it done low level?

DocNo
Aug 1, 2011, 11:46 PM
Does anyone know if running Windows 7 via Bootcamp overnight would allow the system to do TRIM garbage collection on the entire drive, or just on the Windows partition? I would think the former but I have no solid evidence.

Yup - TRIM allows the OS to communicate low level facts about the file system to the hard drive - basically "It's OK to erase these blocks since they aren't really in use".

Since Windows has no clue as what is going on with the Mac partition, it would only TRIM the windows partition.

For a Mac, if you aren't using an Apple SSD you should get an SSD that is over-provisoned and uses a SandForce controller - like the ones that OWC/macsales.com sells. The drive takes care of ensuring that there are plenty of free cells to write to by performing garbage collection on it's own. Same end result as TRIM, but it's OS independent. The only penalty is since there is extra flash for the over provisioning, SandForce based drives tend to cost a little more - but not always.

I have OWC drives in both my Mac Pro and my MacBook Pro and so far lack of TRIM is not an issue. My Mac Pro has been up for 7 months and is just as fast today as it was when I set it up initially.

hekokimushi
Aug 2, 2011, 12:28 AM
Here is a screenshot proof for your Reference
:apple::cool:

adder7712
Aug 2, 2011, 12:59 AM
Here is a screenshot proof for your Reference
:apple::cool: This is off-topic but I have the same MacBook and my About This Mac window does not display the model year below "MacBook". :confused:

hekokimushi
Aug 2, 2011, 07:44 AM
This is off-topic but I have the same MacBook and my About This Mac window does not display the model year below "MacBook". :confused:

About this mac-> More info

terraphantm
Aug 3, 2011, 12:20 PM
I don't have TRIM in lion even with my Apple branded SSD =/