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MacRumors
Jun 8, 2011, 09:58 AM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/08/lodsys-patents-under-attack-as-legal-challenge-to-their-validity-commences/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/05/lodsys_wordmark.jpg


FOSS Patents reports (http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/06/all-four-lodsys-patents-under.html) that Lodsys, the company that has begun filing lawsuits (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/31/lodsys-responds-to-apple-files-lawsuits-against-app-developers/) against App Store developers for implementing in app purchases and upgrade links, now finds itself on the receiving end of legal action. According to the report, a Michigan firm has filed a request for declaratory judgment regarding the validity of the four patents Lodsys is using in its own lawsuits. While a declaratory judgment against Lodsys would not automatically invalidate the firm's patent claims, it would set the legal framework for further challenges and negotiations both in and out of court.Yesterday, the aforementioned Michigan company -- ForeSee Results, Inc. -- filed a proactive declaratory judgment action against all four Lodsys patents. In that complaint, ForeSee Results Inc. said that Lodsys had "threatened assertion" of one or more of its four patents against ForeSee's customers. Foresee names three examples of customers that received letters from Lodsys:

- Adidas (I have published that assertion letter on Scribd so you can take a look at it; it includes a claim chart that looks similar as the ones that many app developers received, though it relates to a different patent)

- Best Buy

- WE EnergiesThe report notes that the move is a preemptive strike by ForeSee Results, as its initial filing in Illinois could allow it to have any future lawsuits filed against the named companies transferred there instead of being adjudicated in the patent holder-friendly courts of the Eastern District of Texas where Lodsys has been filing its suits so far. And while the legal challenge to Lodsys' patents does not directly include the App Store developers targeted by the firm, a win for ForeSee Results could help bolster the developers' cases should a verdict come soon enough.

Article Link: Lodsys Patents Under Attack as Legal Challenge to Their Validity Commences (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/08/lodsys-patents-under-attack-as-legal-challenge-to-their-validity-commences/)



Consultant
Jun 8, 2011, 10:05 AM
Hope they win against patent troll Lodsys.

Next step, Apple?

CindyRed
Jun 8, 2011, 10:06 AM
Validity schmalidity. Thomas Edison taught us all you don't have to invent anything to be considered an inventor. Just patent EVERYTHING, sue people who actually do the inventing, lather, rinse, repeat. That is the American way! To question validity of a patent is to question the patent system itself, and force real innovation.

RafaelT
Jun 8, 2011, 10:07 AM
That's great, hope the wipe the floor with them.

millerb7
Jun 8, 2011, 10:07 AM
I dunno... I feel you're barking up the wrong tree when you start trying to get this trolling over on companies like Apple, Google, Best Buy, and Adidas.

Mike Oxard
Jun 8, 2011, 10:09 AM
Why are some courts more patent-holder friendly? I guess the law can be open to some interpretation, but for one area to be consistently used to bring these patent cases does sound a lot like there are backhanders being made.

drewisanapple
Jun 8, 2011, 10:13 AM
Why do I feel this company won't let anybody win?
I mean, they're hurting more than big guys, like the small guys who this is their only way of revenue.

jav6454
Jun 8, 2011, 10:16 AM
Lodsys just opened the Pandora's box of patents. Hope they like it.

spazzcat
Jun 8, 2011, 10:16 AM
Why are some courts more patent-holder friendly? I guess the law can be open to some interpretation, but for one area to be consistently used to bring these patent cases does sound a lot like there are backhanders being made.

All judges have their bais.

BLACKFRIDAY
Jun 8, 2011, 10:19 AM
EDIT: ****** up comment.

baummer
Jun 8, 2011, 10:30 AM
What's next? Targeting all websites that use a SUBMIT button since the patent descriptions are so vague?

CindyRed
Jun 8, 2011, 10:31 AM
Ya! You were there in his time to know everything what happened, eh?

What does that even mean? lol

jonnysods
Jun 8, 2011, 10:34 AM
Oh baby it's on now.

Glideslope
Jun 8, 2011, 10:39 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Smart move filing in Illinois.

Texas is not part of the Union. I their minds, that is.

Vertigo50
Jun 8, 2011, 10:42 AM
I have a feeling if Apple isn't already providing support in this case (financial or otherwise) they probably will soon. On the other hand, who's to say that Apple didn't instigate this in the first place, and is using this company as a front. ;)

What I really love about this is that Lodsys was getting their extortion money from Apple and others, but now they stand to not only get the extra money they were hoping to get from devs and others, they stand to lose everything.

Good strategy, Lodsys, you will go down in the history books as an example of how NOT to do patent trolling.

:apple:

BornAgainMac
Jun 8, 2011, 10:50 AM
I don't like the name "Lodsys". I wish I could sue them.

0815
Jun 8, 2011, 10:55 AM
Long expensive court battles ahead ... enough companies with cash are standing up against Lodsys.

Hope they go bankrupt over it. I don't know if the patents are 'legal' or not - but they should go bankrupt over trying to charge twice (the producer and the consumer) for the same thing .....

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)
Smart move filing in Illinois.


Only Patent Trolls file patent cases in Texas ...

miografico
Jun 8, 2011, 11:00 AM
I have a feeling if Apple isn't already providing support in this case (financial or otherwise) they probably will soon. On the other hand, who's to say that Apple didn't instigate this in the first place, and is using this company as a front. ;)

What I really love about this is that Lodsys was getting their extortion money from Apple and others, but now they stand to not only get the extra money they were hoping to get from devs and others, they stand to lose everything.

Good strategy, Lodsys, you will go down in the history books as an example of how NOT to do patent trolling.

:apple:

Their downfall in the end will be the same as SCO with the sue everybody - take no prisoners approach. I can guarantee there are countless others companies who have FedEx form letters we don't hear about. Hell, it even popped up on the Google News feed last week that they were also targeting online porn companies.

This case is a perfect example of the need for tort reform and the mandatory restitution of legal fees in class action lawsuits by the losing party. Until that happens the US is going to continue on a downward momentum as a safe place for inovation, but unfortunately when we time after time vote for politicians who are ex-lawyers we reap what we sow.

dacapo
Jun 8, 2011, 11:02 AM
I don't like the name "Lodsys".

Me neither. "Lolsys" sounds more likable.

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 8, 2011, 11:33 AM
Validity schmalidity. Thomas Edison taught us all you don't have to invent anything to be considered an inventor. Just patent EVERYTHING, sue people who actually do the inventing, lather, rinse, repeat. That is the American way! To question validity of a patent is to question the patent system itself, and force real innovation.

Thomas Edison is a piece of trash. Basically stole ideas from people and then used his celebrity status to spread lies about Tesla.

Tiger8
Jun 8, 2011, 11:40 AM
Stick a fork in Lodsys, they are DONE.

CFreymarc
Jun 8, 2011, 11:50 AM
I dunno... I feel you're barking up the wrong tree when you start trying to get this trolling over on companies like Apple, Google, Best Buy, and Adidas.

You have that right. They just got the attention of the big dogs. Now let's see how much of a fighter they are or just a bully.

Rodimus Prime
Jun 8, 2011, 11:51 AM
well looks like bigger players are seeing the long term results of this being used against them and are going to shut it down early on. Assuming they get it the others can use use that as presidencies to say nope we do not have to pay you.

ranReloaded
Jun 8, 2011, 11:57 AM
...or like my friend Duke would put it:

SUCK IT DOWN!!!

...This proves the patent system is flawed:Poor little indie trolls like LodSys don't stand a chance to stick it to the big corporation lobbies and their cross-licensed patent pools... "The Man" always wins in the end... Oh the world is so unfair!!! :D

ComputersaysNo
Jun 8, 2011, 12:02 PM
This is what happens when you are seriously uncool.

miografico
Jun 8, 2011, 12:04 PM
well looks like bigger players are seeing the long term results of this being used against them and are going to shut it down early on. Assuming they get it the others can use use that as presidencies to say nope we do not have to pay you.

Not so fast! This is a gamble of time my friends...

Those with pending lawsuits in the Texas jurisdiction are not able to reap the benefits of a declaratory judgment set forth in Illinois if those suits are finished before the judgment is handed down.

If you are a small App Developer you have no choice, but to relent at this point unless Apple will pay the millions it will cost you to defend your company against patent litigation.

Apple and Google screwed the pooch BIG TIME on this one and should have opened the case for a declaratory judgment themselves making app developers a third party to that litigation.

Apple did exactly what I said was going to happen in my first post on this forum. They said in a strongly worded letter to LodSys, "We do not believe this to be the case" and left it at that.

So everyone needs to hold on with the praise of the demise of LodSys as it pertains to application developers on Apple's platform and stop inserting Apple as the savior here - that is clearly not the case as of right now.

Rodimus Prime
Jun 8, 2011, 12:15 PM
Not so fast! This is a gamble of time my friends...

Those with pending lawsuits in the Texas jurisdiction are not able to reap the benefits of a declaratory judgment set forth in Illinois if those suits are finished before the judgment is handed down.

If you are a small App Developer you have no choice, but to relent at this point unless Apple will pay the millions it will cost you to defend your company against patent litigation.

Apple and Google screwed the pooch BIG TIME on this one and should have opened the case for a declaratory judgment themselves making app developers a third party to that litigation.

Apple did exactly what I said was going to happen in my first post on this forum. They said in a strongly worded letter to LodSys, "We do not believe this to be the case" and left it at that.

So everyone needs to hold on with the praise of the demise of LodSys as it pertains to application developers on Apple's platform and stop inserting Apple as the savior here - that is clearly not the case of as right now.


Even if they pay at first a judgement there could be patents re invalid so the devs say then our agreement is invalid and tell them that they can see them in court.
Short term loss for the devs but what Lodsys is doing going after small devs is they know those devs can not afford the legal fees to fight but big guys have the deeper pockets to deal with the legal fees to fight a patent troll like Lodsys.

miografico
Jun 8, 2011, 12:23 PM
Even if they pay at first a judgement there could be patents re invalid so the devs say then our agreement is invalid and tell them that they can see them in court.
Short term loss for the devs but what Lodsys is doing going after small devs is they know those devs can not afford the legal fees to fight but big guys have the deeper pockets to deal with the legal fees to fight a patent troll like Lodsys.

Rodimus it doesn't work like that.. Lodsys set aside their prior offer of licensing and instead sued just on the basis that the technology behind the patents was being used without their licensing (permission). If you're a two man team company and now you're stuck in patent litigation - you are effectively bankrupt.

The lets make a deal time for the 7 developers we know about ended with Apple's letter. They may be out of business before anything is decided in Illinois.

This does not bode well for developing on Android or iOS unless Google and Apple step up to the freaking plate!

mmcxiiad
Jun 8, 2011, 12:50 PM
and the hits just keep on coming

SeanMcg
Jun 8, 2011, 01:07 PM
...This case is a perfect example of the need for tort reform and the mandatory restitution of legal fees in class action lawsuits by the losing party. Until that happens the US is going to continue on a downward momentum as a safe place for inovation, but unfortunately when we time after time vote for politicians who are ex-lawyers we reap what we sow.

I find it interesting that at the state level, Texas feels the same way (http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/politics/entries/2011/05/24/senate_approves_loser_pays_ref.html?cxntfid=blogs_postcards).

For those of you who ask why go to East Texas for this, think about the type of cases that make it to the Ninth Circuit court. I make no comment on the merit of any of the cases, but you will see a radical difference. Venue shopping all around.

Yuniverse
Jun 8, 2011, 01:26 PM
Thomas Edison is a piece of trash. Basically stole ideas from people and then used his celebrity status to spread lies about Tesla.

I totally lost all respect for Edison when I learned about Tesla and what Edison did to him. I don't care if you invent the greatest stuff in the world, you need to have integrity to earn respect in my book.

kiljoy616
Jun 8, 2011, 01:28 PM
Hope they win against patent troll Lodsys.

Next step, Apple?

Well said, the biggest issue here is dam Texas get it out of there and the chanes of these troll companies to wing goes down a substantially. :)

mcmlxix
Jun 8, 2011, 01:30 PM
What's the moral of this story? Don't go hitting bee hives with a stick.

kiljoy616
Jun 8, 2011, 01:38 PM
I totally lost all respect for Edison when I learned about Tesla and what Edison did to him. I don't care if you invent the greatest stuff in the world, you need to have integrity to earn respect in my book.

And your point? Sorry but that what Capitalism is. He with the power and money crushes everyone else or did you forget.

Here is an excerpt from Wiki one what happen after his death, so don't just blame Edison people where just scum then as they where then.

"Soon after his death Tesla's safe was opened by his nephew Sava Kosanović. Shortly thereafter Tesla's papers and other property were impounded by the United States' Alien Property Custodian office in Tesla's compound at the Manhattan Warehouse, even though he was a naturalized citizen." :mad:

In my book Tesla was a genius in his own right:cool:, but lived in a time with racist who still regarded people from other countries as less even thought they themselves where descendants of people from other countries also. We have come a long way, but we still have a long way to go.

Maybe if he had the "Long Form Citizenship" it would have been different. :rolleyes:

miografico
Jun 8, 2011, 01:44 PM
I find it interesting that at the state level, Texas feels the same way (http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/politics/entries/2011/05/24/senate_approves_loser_pays_ref.html?cxntfid=blogs_postcards).

For those of you who ask why go to East Texas for this, think about the type of cases that make it to the Ninth Circuit court. I make no comment on the merit of any of the cases, but you will see a radical difference. Venue shopping all around.

Well, the big guys pull the same BS with district shopping - it's not just patent trolls.

Patents in general are an affront to the free market. We are led to believe that who gets to market with their invention/idea first is the victor and that is simply not the case. It's 20% the invention itself, 20% it's economic value based upon cost to produce/retail price and 60% how good you are at marketing it to your consumer.

The patent system started off as with noble intentions, but today they have two uses: for mega conglomerates to stifle inovation and for patent holding companies to simply use them as tradable securities.

I understand that everyone here does not have a degree in engineering, but do not be fooled by the propaganda rhetoric that something is a miraculous invention/piece of engineering. If I look at your mechanical arm and I say to myself if I change, this, this, this and this to make it better - how is that your invention anymore? It's not but chances are if mine is better than the original product of a major corporation - I am going to get sued.

It's more extreme in cases of software. You can make the argument that nothing has the originality in software to be able to be granted a patent -based upon the source of all software having the same root: binary. If I am not able patent an invention on top of your invention why am I able to patent software on top of an already prescribed subsystem?

writingdevil
Jun 8, 2011, 03:01 PM
All judges have their bais.

catering to patent trolls is a cottage industry in marshall. it's an economic boost for this small east texas town, population 24,00. if you think this is about a judge having bias, read up on it. it's about a community creating an industry.

even though federal judges have questioned results and percentage of troll wins is lower than five years ago, it still give trolls a secure place to troll from.

i was born in dallas, just spittin' distance away, as my east texas uncle likes to say, and marshall had lost its economic stability, much of it's industry and downtown shops gone, until recently. thanks to influx of out of town lawyers, business is booming again, office space rented out weekly, hotels have almost full occupancy during the week, diners selling "texas sized meals".

Ahh, those wonderful friendly church going folks. This is texas style justice at it's best !

objc
Jun 8, 2011, 03:05 PM
Where is Apple in all of this? Their stupid letter gave Lodsh*t the opportunity to file in the Patent Troll District of Texas. Sewell should have just filed a preemptive suit and gotten a delcaratory judgement like this company is doing, or bankrupted Lodsh*t with a long, drawn out legal process. The threatening letter just made things worse.

I'm about to submit a piece of software I wrote in my spare time to Apple's store, and this has me really thinking... that I need to spend my time thinking up stupid ***** to patent instead of thinking about model-view-controller. That way I'll have patents to use defensively against the inevitable lawsuit.

I'd rather be spending my time writing code.

Ruahrc
Jun 8, 2011, 03:57 PM
It's fun and all to see a patent troll company get a taste of their own medicine, and see "enemies of teh Applez" get in trouble, but seriously, what does this have to do with Apple, or macrumors? Apple is not filing the suit, it has nothing to do with Macs. At best, it should have been a page 2 story.

The hits-pandering on MR is shameless

Ruahrc

objc
Jun 8, 2011, 04:05 PM
It's fun and all to see a patent troll company get a taste of their own medicine, and see "enemies of teh Applez" get in trouble, but seriously, what does this have to do with Apple, or macrumors? Apple is not filing the suit, it has nothing to do with Macs. At best, it should have been a page 2 story.

The hits-pandering on MR is shameless

Ruahrc
It has a hell of a lot to do with Macs... do you like having software on your Mac? Apple paid off these trolls and now they are coming after small developers -- often the source of great innovative software. It's made me think twice about submitting software for fear of getting sued by a troll. That means less software available to you. Think about it.

EDIT: in addition, the more trolls Apple has to pay off, the more Apple products cost. That cost is built in to the cost of the products. Just because you don't see it broken out in a line-item doesn't mean it's not there. So you are indirectly paying the trolls.

cmaier
Jun 8, 2011, 04:05 PM
http://www.baumlegal.com/blog/

iEvolution
Jun 8, 2011, 06:22 PM
good night sweet lodsys.

madhatter61
Jun 8, 2011, 09:02 PM
I wonder about law suites in general. I thought our USA Constitution states everyone is considered innocent until proved guilty. With a law suite you have to prove your innocent before you are proven guilty. Therefore, Law Suites are unconstitutional.

I wonder why No-one has ever challenged the whole process. I would suggest that the entitiy wanting to sue, would have to first go before a magistrate, show evidence, pay fees before any further action could proceed.

cmaier
Jun 8, 2011, 09:14 PM
I wonder about law suites in general. I thought our USA Constitution states everyone is considered innocent until proved guilty. With a law suite you have to prove your innocent before you are proven guilty. Therefore, Law Suites are unconstitutional.

1) guilt/innocence is a CRIMINAL law concept, not a CIVIL law concept. If you are sued the issue is not whether you are "guilty." It is whether you are liable for whatever damages the suing party alleges.

1a) please show me where, in the Constitution, it says anything about "everyone is considered innocent until proved guilty."

2) You do not have to prove you are innocent in a lawsuit. The burden of proof is on the plaintiff, not the defendant.

3) "Suits," not "suites." Suites are interconnected rooms.


I wonder why No-one has ever challenged the whole process.


Because you are making stuff up.

Rodimus Prime
Jun 8, 2011, 09:17 PM
I wonder about law suites in general. I thought our USA Constitution states everyone is considered innocent until proved guilty. With a law suite you have to prove your innocent before you are proven guilty. Therefore, Law Suites are unconstitutional.

I wonder why No-one has ever challenged the whole process. I would suggest that the entitiy wanting to sue, would have to first go before a magistrate, show evidence, pay fees before any further action could proceed.

civil cases are very different than criminal cases. The rules are different.

caspersoong
Jun 11, 2011, 09:19 AM
Lodsys should stop this nonsense before they get seriously hurt. :)