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MacRumors
Jun 8, 2011, 08:40 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/08/app-store-delivery-lets-apple-slash-lion-pricing/)


Apple's Mac App Store-only strategy for the release of OS X Lion has brought consternation to some, particularly those in rural areas without reliable high-speed Internet and folks in enterprise and educational IT departments. However, for a large group of Mac users -- those outside the US and Canada -- the Mac App Store is a boon for the wallet.

Apple made significant price cuts to Lion compared to what the company charged for Snow Leopard. Because the price didn't change much in the US or Canada -- it rose 3% from $29 to $29.99 -- we can assume the main reason for the change in pricing is cost savings from digital delivery.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/06/lionpricingchange.jpg

To get pricing for Lion and Snow Leopard, we examined each country's Apple Online Store and Lion launch pages. Some countries we looked at, notably China, Hong Kong and South Korea, had no pricing announced for Lion so we skipped them.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/06/lionpricecurrency.jpg


Pricing was compared within individual countries so any VAT or taxation should be identical.

Article Link: App Store Delivery Lets Apple Slash Lion Pricing (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/08/app-store-delivery-lets-apple-slash-lion-pricing/)



thejadedmonkey
Jun 8, 2011, 08:46 PM
Don't most software publishers that sell software on shelves only get like 20% of the sticker price? so for a $129 piece of software, Apple would only get $25.80.. so one could argue that with the digital delivery, Apple actually raised the price.

But since they passed the savings along to the consumer, it's a win for us all :)

WiiDSmoker
Jun 8, 2011, 08:47 PM
don't most software publishers that sell software on shelves only get like 20% of the sticker price?

no

Eddyisgreat
Jun 8, 2011, 08:47 PM
The japanese should be able to download OS X Lion and indeed the entire app store in a matter of seconds with their FTTB (Fiber to the Brain), so the cost is somehow lower ;)

inkswamp
Jun 8, 2011, 08:48 PM
I'm happy. I said once before, when this was only a rumor, that if Apple were going to expect the usage of my Internet connection to distribute their software, it should come at a significant discount (a point that was argued down by a few commenters here.) Glad to see Apple agrees with me. :D

chevman
Jun 8, 2011, 08:50 PM
calibrated for exchange rate differences between then and now?

Obi-Wan Kubrick
Jun 8, 2011, 08:51 PM
They should make a boxed copy a luxury item that can be ordered over the phone or online that can be mailed to those that live in low speed areas.

mrkgoo
Jun 8, 2011, 08:51 PM
I think the main reason for comparative 'savings' is exchange rate. whenever apple releases a new product, the prices are fixed at US prices and the current exchange at that time.

Products go up and down in price. For example, the iPhone 4 in NZ was slightly cheaper than the iPhone 3GS at respective launches. I remember one year the MacBook pros increased in price by 20-30% but dropped again in the following refresh.

I assume that's why 99c songs and 99c apps aren't the same prices in non-US stores.

Le Big Mac
Jun 8, 2011, 08:55 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Mobile/8J2)

It's ridiculous to conclude that the lower price is solely from online delivery. There's no way it cost Apple $100 tondistribute a DVD.

No the difference is a change in business strategy to get new OS updates into users' hands at a more affordable price. Why? Because Lion add to the system lockin attributes of the Mac ecosystem.

Nermal
Jun 8, 2011, 08:56 PM
calibrated for exchange rate differences between then and now?

Between then and the launch of the App Store, by the look of it: The NZ price of $38.99 correlates with the price of apps (NZ$1.29 for a US$0.99 app, NZ$38.99 for a US$29.99 app). Presumably they match up using the appropriate ratios in other countries too.

blevins321
Jun 8, 2011, 09:00 PM
Hate to nitpick, but the US rates do not include applicable sales tax to states where Apple has physical presence. Still, no complaints about the pricing here :)

accrama
Jun 8, 2011, 09:00 PM
It decreased 16% in Mexico, from $419 pesos (Snow Leopard) to $360 for Lion. :)

halluxxx
Jun 8, 2011, 09:02 PM
...is actually •3300, not •4400. Always was.

notjustjay
Jun 8, 2011, 09:08 PM
No the difference is a change in business strategy to get new OS updates into users' hands at a more affordable price. Why? Because Lion add to the system lockin attributes of te Ma ecosystem.

Despite the fact that I don't understand your last sentence at all, I agree -- the cheaper updates means more people will upgrade which puts more Macs at the same level. Adoption of new APIs and core services will go faster as a result.

dantiston
Jun 8, 2011, 09:10 PM
Except -- the price actually dropped much more than this. These prices (at least the US price, presumably the others) are for the single user pack. Lion only comes in the family pack now (all app store downloads can go on 5 machines), so the price actually dropped in the US and everywhere from $49 (or whichever) to $30. That's a $19 price drop in the US -- 38%!

hopejr
Jun 8, 2011, 09:13 PM
calibrated for exchange rate differences between then and now?

It doesn't seem to be. It was set at AU $39 back when the Aussie Dollar was only about 80c. Now it's $1.06, so the price is basically the same. To us it's a saving, but compared to what is being paid stateside, it's no different.

I think the person who analysed this has forgotten that the USD has lost a heap of value since SL came out.

skellener
Jun 8, 2011, 09:14 PM
So if you have a business that is all Mac, say 100 machines, $29.99 U.S. covers the upgrade for all of them to Lion???

igazza
Jun 8, 2011, 09:14 PM
Except -- the price actually dropped much more than this. These prices (at least the US price, presumably the others) are for the single user pack. Lion only comes in the family pack now (all app store downloads can go on 5 machines), so the price actually dropped in the US and everywhere from $49 (or whichever) to $30. That's a $19 price drop in the US -- 38%!

the single user pack can still be installed on 5 computers. :p

writingdevil
Jun 8, 2011, 09:15 PM
Don't most software publishers that sell software on shelves only get like 20% of the sticker price? so for a $129 piece of software, Apple would only get $25.80.. so one could argue that with the digital delivery, Apple actually raised the price. :)

where did you get the 20%. not from places i've worked or friends have, but based on an assumption you make, apple is "raising" the price?????

if you used to pay $129.00 for software and you now pay $29.00 what kind of math are you using that says the price has been raised????

i try to read apple posts for info that teaches me something from experienced developers, power users or people who have some insights, but i just don't follow this kind of post.

Awjvail
Jun 8, 2011, 09:17 PM
So is it confirmed that it will be ONLY on the App Store? I want a disc...

nagromme
Jun 8, 2011, 09:20 PM
By my napkin math, if the Lion download resumes reliably, it should be perfectly possible to get Lion by dial-up in just 8 hours a night... for a month! :eek:

Offering a thumbdrive or disc (at higher cost) would be nice for people stuck on dialup, and there are a lot of people in that situation. Some of them donít have a laptop, and canít just make an extended trip to a WiFi hotspot.

Maybe Apple needs to have a fleet of Lionmobiles, broadcasting high-speed WiFi to small towns for a day at a time! Everyone can huddle around the van watching the progress bar.

thejadedmonkey
Jun 8, 2011, 09:21 PM
where did you get the 20%. not from places i've worked or friends have, but based on an assumption you make, apple is "raising" the price?????

if you used to pay $129.00 for software and you now pay $29.00 what kind of math are you using that says the price has been raised????

i try to read apple posts for info that teaches me something from experienced developers, power users or people who have some insights, but i just don't follow this kind of post.

Ok, not that Apple is raising the price, but that Apple is making more per sale. And I got that figure from a game developer forum. I don't know what it's like for software from a company like Apple, but I know game developers get screwed, and even when it comes to physical goods, 50% is markup from the store, then there's 50% to split between costs, manufacturing, and profit, so 20% seems descent.

Awjvail
Jun 8, 2011, 09:22 PM
So if you have a business that is all Mac, say 100 machines, $29.99 U.S. covers the upgrade for all of them to Lion???

Doesn't 1 App Store purchase cover up to 5 computers?

knownikko
Jun 8, 2011, 09:24 PM
It's ridiculous to conclude that the lower price is solely from online delivery.

Completely agreed. The price is low because $29.99 or thereabouts is a good psychological price point and Apple doesn't care one bit how much money they make from the distribution and sale of OSX.

It's a very clever way to ensure that the majority of existing Mac users activate an account and associate a credit card with the App Store. I imagine App Store penetration has been very low thus far - but once you've put in your payment info and used it to download Lion, I'd say the likelihood of eventually buying more software through that channel rises significantly.

$30 is the perfect price in terms of perceived value - high enough that people think they are buying a quality product (there is often a negative association with "free"), and low enough that most will upgrade without a second thought.

The idea that savings from physical distribution factored in at all is laughable. Snow Leopard was already being sold at a great loss - There's no way $30 a pop comes close to recovering the development cost. They just don't care, because OSX is developed solely to drive hardware sales - not be a viable business on its own.

Graig
Jun 8, 2011, 09:25 PM
So will the file we download be able to be saved and burned to a disk by the users?

Kwill
Jun 8, 2011, 09:25 PM
So if you have a business that is all Mac, say 100 machines, $29.99 U.S. covers the upgrade for all of them to Lion???

I believe you need to move that decimal point over to the right a couple of digits. The App Store distribution method means there is no disc or disc image. It installs directly on the machine that purchases the OS software. Think of it like an installer in the cloud. How would it be possible to get this on 100 machines?

Awjvail
Jun 8, 2011, 09:27 PM
I believe you need to move that decimal point over to the right a couple of digits. The App Store distribution method means there is no disc or disc image. It installs directly on the machine that purchases the OS software. How would it be possible to get this on 100 machines?

Sign into App Store account on computer you want to install on
Store>Purchases>Lion>Install

Same as you can do right now.

knownikko
Jun 8, 2011, 09:27 PM
Also, OF COURSE there will be discs, or an easy way to make your own (there are already instructions on the web for how to easily burn a disc of the app-store distributed developer preview). You're just not gonna see fancy retail packaging in any store.

Systems do need bare metal reinstalls on occasion - and there's no way an enterprise or educational institution is going to go around to each machine and log in with a corporate App Store account.

beebler
Jun 8, 2011, 09:31 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Mobile/8J2)

People who don't have reliable high speed Internet have Macs? Sure it's not Gateway or something?

macsrcool1234
Jun 8, 2011, 09:34 PM
Sign into App Store account on computer you want to install on
Store>Purchases>Lion>Install

Same as you can do right now.

Did you even think this post out before writing it?

Does it make sense to re-download Lion 100 times (100 in the quoted example)?

MartiNZ
Jun 8, 2011, 09:36 PM
Seems clear to me, the places with basically no other options for buying Mac software, and especially not at reasonable prices, benefit the most in this situation :).

In NZ we could go to a reseller and get games (for example) for 2x the price of the PC equivalent, and a very small selection at that; only Blizzard shines through, of course. And now there is massive expansion in all areas, so I think we have taken to the Mac AppStore like the proverbial ducks to water, and so we reap the benefits for Lion, awesome!

dawnrazor
Jun 8, 2011, 09:37 PM
I think they should make a hard copy available, like the USB stick thing that comes with the MBAs... But I'm happy to download it and for a 35% saving over SL - someone somewhere here is not going to be happy :D

Justinf79
Jun 8, 2011, 09:38 PM
Well at least it looks like you will be able to burn a Lion install disk after downloading it. :)

iSayuSay
Jun 8, 2011, 09:44 PM
I only have 1Mbps connection, which can be PIA when it comes to download 4Gb bulk file. Yeah it may take around 10 hours, but still very long.

Now how if I purchase Lion with my Apple ID on App Store, but I cancel the download and then I take the 4Gb downloaded file from someone else, burn it to DVD and install on my Mac. Can I do it?

And if so, how can Lion check whether the Mac is eligible or not to install Lion? Say, can I install it on a friend's Mac which hasn't purchased Lion IF I have Lion on burned DVD?

bretm
Jun 8, 2011, 09:44 PM
Despite the fact that I don't understand your last sentence at all, I agree -- the cheaper updates means more people will upgrade which puts more Macs at the same level. Adoption of new APIs and core services will go faster as a result.

Theres not much to understand. For better or worse, they're definitely closing up the Mac ecosystem. The app store will quickly be seen as the only place to get apps. Even if other apps and installs are allowed, the quicker that apple gets lion in the hands of folks, and the built in app store, the quicker people will forget about other methods of getting apps. Forcing devs to the app store where apple gets a cut and controls content and quality.

dempson
Jun 8, 2011, 09:45 PM
So if you have a business that is all Mac, say 100 machines, $29.99 U.S. covers the upgrade for all of them to Lion???

No. The App Store licensing terms are listed here (http://www.apple.com/legal/itunes/ww/). Choose your country, follow the link to section C, then scroll down. In English versions, search for the heading "MAC APP STORE PRODUCT USAGE RULES".

In short, US$29.99 is the price for any of the following:

(a) Personal (non-commercial) use, on an unlimited number of computers owned or controlled by that person; or

(b) Commercial use, on an unlimited number of computers used by a single person; or

(c) Commercial use, on a single computer used by multiple people.

A typical business with multiple computers each used by one person will need to pay $29.99 per computer to upgrade to Lion via the App Store, and will need a separate Apple ID for each employee or computer.

There are volume licensing solutions (http://store.apple.com/us_smb_78313/browse/campaigns/sb_volume) which will be more practical for all but the smallest businesses, but from the look of the Snow Leopard pricing (which are per seat), they are in some cases more expensive than buying the retail product. Volume licensing prices for Lion haven't been announced yet.

brettryan
Jun 8, 2011, 09:46 PM
Well at least it looks like you will be able to burn a Lion install disk after downloading it. :)

Where did you see that? My dad lives in a romote area with only cellular Internet which is extremely expensive in Australia, and only has a 250MB plan, how can he install?

Le Big Mac
Jun 8, 2011, 09:48 PM
Despite the fact that I don't understand your last sentence at all, I agree -- the cheaper updates means more people will upgrade which puts more Macs at the same level. Adoption of new APIs and core services will go faster as a result.

The point is that Apple is increasingly adopting a business model where having all your products be from apple (computer, phone, tablet, wireless routers, cloud services) are an advantage. Doing this increases repeat sales--you are much more likely to buy another iPhone if you've got a computer that works with it and all your data in the cloud. Lion adds more features that interoperate with other Apple products and are likely to make it less attractive for a customer to opt for a non-Apple product.

So, give away the razor handle and charge more for the blades.

ftaok
Jun 8, 2011, 09:48 PM
Did you even think this post out before writing it?

Does it make sense to re-download Lion 100 times (100 in the quoted example)?

To be fair, awjvail never said it made sense or was optimal ... only that you could do it. If you had 10 Macs, you could purchase Lion once and install it on all 10 Macs, just like any other app on the Mac App Store. Sure, downloading the 4GB update on each machine is a waste of time, but some folks have been able to burn a boot DVD with the beta version of Lion. This would make more sense for folks with 3 or more Macs. If it's just one or two Macs, you may as well download Lion on each machine, provided you don't have bandwidth cap issues.

dantiston
Jun 8, 2011, 09:52 PM
Also, OF COURSE there will be discs, or an easy way to make your own (there are already instructions on the web for how to easily burn a disc of the app-store distributed developer preview). You're just not gonna see fancy retail packaging in any store.

Systems do need bare metal reinstalls on occasion - and there's no way an enterprise or educational institution is going to go around to each machine and log in with a corporate App Store account.

Did anybody read/see the part where Lion installs a recovery partition? No more need for an external boot for a straight reinstall.

And, of course, the Genius Bar can get Lion installed on your new HDD when it fails -- if you're still using those old things :p

Also, the App Store download only does work on 5 machines -- Just like all other App Store downloads! It's no longer an ethereal *license* restriction, it's not a soft-encoded, enterprise-level encrypted restriction.

acslater017
Jun 8, 2011, 09:55 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Mobile/8J2)

It's ridiculous to conclude that the lower price is solely from online delivery. There's no way it cost Apple $100 tondistribute a DVD.

No the difference is a change in business strategy to get new OS updates into users' hands at a more affordable price. Why? Because Lion add to the system lockin attributes of the Mac ecosystem.

1) I suspect Apple has built in the potential price of software piracy into their titles. Any intermediate-level user can BitTorrent a .dmg and download a piece of Apple software that doesn't require registration. I would have no idea how to distribute something downloaded off the App Store. Does anyone here? (DISCLAIMER: I'm just asking a theoretical, academic question!)

2) I wonder if all of Europe minds being represented by a French flag :p:confused: Couldn't find the E.U. flag or something?

3) I really, really hope (and suspect) that Apple will come out with some physical installation method for Lion. There are just too many people with slow internet, bandwidth caps, want to quickly do multiple installs, want an emergency copy at ready, etc. If anything, they should make it available for $49 or something like that!

ftaok
Jun 8, 2011, 09:58 PM
Also, the App Store download only does work on 5 machines -- Just like all other App Store downloads! It's no longer an ethereal *license* restriction, it's not a soft-encoded, enterprise-level encrypted restriction.

All Mac App Store apps can be installed on an unlimited number of Macs that you own (and have signed in on your Apple ID). Where's this 5 Mac limit coming from. I keep seeing people saying this, but it's just not true.

hellomoto4
Jun 8, 2011, 09:59 PM
Don't forget the Aussie dollar is now better than the US Dollar. At the moment, it's sitting around US$1.07 for every AU$1. I'd say this also impacted it a fair bit, as when SL was released if would have been around US$0.80-$0.85 for every AU$1

acslater017
Jun 8, 2011, 10:00 PM
Maybe Apple needs to have a fleet of Lionmobiles, broadcasting high-speed WiFi to small towns for a day at a time! Everyone can huddle around the van watching the progress bar.

Haha. No, they should just fly the mothership around! And plant trees while they're at it :p

klamse25
Jun 8, 2011, 10:04 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)


Also, the App Store download only does work on 5 machines -- Just like all other App Store downloads! It's no longer an ethereal *license* restriction, it's not a soft-encoded, enterprise-level encrypted restriction.

All Mac App Store apps can be installed on an unlimited number of Macs that you own (and have signed in on your Apple ID). Where's this 5 Mac limit coming from. I keep seeing people saying this, but it's just not true.

They explicitly said it in their latest keynote.
I remember this because they said something along the lines of, "...and since this will be a Mac app store download, it can be downloaded on up to 5 machines." Then the audience was cheering like crazy.

waldobushman
Jun 8, 2011, 10:07 PM
Apple has not said, or I missed it, that there will be a way to install to multiple machines from a single download and without burning an install disk.

Perhaps the previous rumor will come to fruition -- Time Capsule download, and multi-installs from the Time Capsule copy.

wackymacky
Jun 8, 2011, 10:07 PM
The NZ exchange rate is near record highs compared with the US so it makes sence that the proce is 30% down.

I also asume that it is all to do with thrying to get everyone cloud intergrated and would rather forgo ten bucks and achive greater uptake for iCloud.

japanime
Jun 8, 2011, 10:08 PM
The japanese should be able to download OS X Lion and indeed the entire app store in a matter of seconds with their FTTB (Fiber to the Brain), so the cost is somehow lower ;)

We may not have the "Fiber to the Brain" that you theorize about, but we do enjoy superb upload and download speeds here in Japan.

Here in our office, we have a 160 Mbps down/10 Mbps up connection that costs us about $60 a month. And the speeds are real, not some "Comcastic" advertising BS.

Downloading Lion from the App Store should be a breeze.

canucksfan88
Jun 8, 2011, 10:08 PM
being a Canadian, im happy at the price is on par with the US.

dantiston
Jun 8, 2011, 10:08 PM
All Mac App Store apps can be installed on an unlimited number of Macs that you own (and have signed in on your Apple ID). Where's this 5 Mac limit coming from. I keep seeing people saying this, but it's just not true.

You can authorize up to 5 computers at once to use your Apple ID/iTunes Store Account -- so only five computers for your apps.

While I haven't tested it, I believe an app is not usable if your computer is not authorized to use it.

It would be stupid if Lion yelled at you (and harken back to Windows) for not being authorized with a lion install, but I could see it.

Does someone else want to deauthorize their computer and find out if their app store apps still work? :p

ShiftyPig
Jun 8, 2011, 10:09 PM
Hopefully we can look back on this in a year or two and declare it a win against piracy. Software like Adobe Creative Suite is so expensive because so many people take it for free. Eliminating (or close to it, I'm guessing someone will try to figure some way around it) piracy is a bonus for everyone except the pirates.

wackymacky
Jun 8, 2011, 10:10 PM
I aslo wonder are they setting a new way of pricing OS?

Snow Leaopard 29.99 (some said this was just becase it didn't offer many features)

Lion: $20.00

so OS 11.0 also abiut twenty bucks?

foidulus
Jun 8, 2011, 10:18 PM
1) I suspect Apple has built in the potential price of software piracy into their titles. Any intermediate-level user can BitTorrent a .dmg and download a piece of Apple software that doesn't require registration. I would have no idea how to distribute something downloaded off the App Store. Does anyone here? (DISCLAIMER: I'm just asking a theoretical, academic question!)

2) I wonder if all of Europe minds being represented by a French flag :p:confused: Couldn't find the E.U. flag or something?

3) I really, really hope (and suspect) that Apple will come out with some physical installation method for Lion. There are just too many people with slow internet, bandwidth caps, want to quickly do multiple installs, want an emergency copy at ready, etc. If anything, they should make it available for $49 or something like that!

While I don't think they do anything now(too lazy to create a separate account and do sha-1 hashes of the same app downloaded from 2 different accounts), it's very straightforward to watermark the download so that if it is torrented Apple can quickly figure out who seeded it.

ftaok
Jun 8, 2011, 10:21 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)
They explicitly said it in their latest keynote.
I remember this because they said something along the lines of, "...and since this will be a Mac app store download, it can be downloaded on up to 5 machines." Then the audience was cheering like crazy.

Unless they said this in a different spot of the Keynote, you're remembering this wrongly. Go 36 minutes into the Keynote to where Phil Schiller is explaining how to buy Lion. He specifically says "since it follows Mac App Store rules", you can "use it on all of you authorized personal Macs, so you don't have to buy multiple copies". Mac App Store rules is that you can authorize all of your Macs, no limits.

You can authorize up to 5 computers at once to use your Apple ID/iTunes Store Account -- so only five computers for your apps.

While I haven't tested it, I believe an app is not usable if your computer is not authorized to use it.

It would be stupid if Lion yelled at you (and harken back to Windows) for not being authorized with a lion install, but I could see it.

Does someone else want to deauthorize their computer and find out if their app store apps still work? :pMac App Store rules are not the same as iTunes authorization rules. There are no computer limits on the Mac App Store.

Check out the attached pic from Apple's website. Explicitly says that apps purchased from the MAS can be installed on every Mac you own.

Incidentally, I just signed out of my Mac App Store and purchased apps worked fine.

pedrofp
Jun 8, 2011, 10:22 PM
For Australians this price shift represents a long overdue shift towards pricing that more actually reflects the current value of the A$. Just last weekend I ran a comparison of Australian vs US Mac prices & after adjustment for our GST the average exchange represented in the prices was 0.93 (it is currently 1.06). The pricing of Lion represents an exchange of 1.03.

sketdansu
Jun 8, 2011, 10:24 PM
hmm not a lot of pirates in japan keeping cost down perhaps

Stella
Jun 8, 2011, 10:24 PM
Theres not much to understand. For better or worse, they're definitely closing up the Mac ecosystem. The app store will quickly be seen as the only place to get apps. Even if other apps and installs are allowed, the quicker that apple gets lion in the hands of folks, and the built in app store, the quicker people will forget about other methods of getting apps. Forcing devs to the app store where apple gets a cut and controls content and quality.

Sure macappstore is a good way to find software, especially for noobs, but the software is of more limited nature, due to apple's rules. You lose a lot of great software because they don't fit apple's rules. For example, Launchbar and many others.. To get Launchbar on Mac AppStore they would have to decrease functionality, according to their forums

maclaptop
Jun 8, 2011, 10:35 PM
Translated. The cover charge to get into the club begins at $29.99.

It's the gateway to expenditures higher than your most vivid imagination. The cost of using Lion will far outweigh just the money you spend on an annual basis.

Suddenly $129.99 will look like chump change.

Fasten your seat belts, you're gonna need em :)

jace88
Jun 8, 2011, 10:37 PM
calibrated for exchange rate differences between then and now?

My thoughts exactly.

jbyun04
Jun 8, 2011, 10:47 PM
The 99 cent difference between SL and Lion = FaceTime? :p

Performa
Jun 8, 2011, 10:58 PM
The WWDC presentation that I watched on video only talked about downloading an "updater" that would update your existing OSX system. Does this mean that there is no way to do a "clean install" as you always could with an operating system disk?

When I've read installation advice on Apple's tech support forums, the pro users (like users of Final Cut Pro and the professional suite of apps) usually recommend doing a full clean install when installing a new operating system instead of just overwriting your existing system with an upgrader. Upgrades are easier, but seem to often lead to problems, at least from what I've read in the past. Any thoughts from people on this?

MikeSmoke
Jun 8, 2011, 11:01 PM
So it must cost a hundred bucks to physically produce and distribute a DVD.

MrSmith
Jun 8, 2011, 11:05 PM
I just tested the speed of my work connection (which is not as fast as my home connection) at speedtest.net (http://www.speedtest.net/) and worked out from this (http://www.t1shopper.com/tools/calculate/downloadcalculator.php) download calculator that it will take me 13 minutes to download Lion.

So...WTF is up with the rest of the world? :eek: How can the US police the world when it can't even communicate efficiently within its own borders? http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/2900/iconbeera.gif

mtvfyrfytr
Jun 8, 2011, 11:07 PM
I want to be able to have the option to have a install disc. I am one of those people who live out in the country, and my DSL speed is not much better than dial up.

I also want to know how people are going to install Lion who still have Tiger on there computers and canít access the App Store.

And finally, what if your hard disc dies?

skellener
Jun 8, 2011, 11:12 PM
A typical business with multiple computers each used by one person will need to pay $29.99 per computer to upgrade to Lion via the App Store, and will need a separate Apple ID for each employee or computer That will NEVER - EVER happen. Not the paying part, the separate Apple ID for each employee or computer. Which is why I asked the question in the first place. How would one go about getting Lion for 100 machines - legit - if it's only a download from the Mac App Store??? I don't see any mention of it anywhere from Apple. I thought maybe someone would know.

timmodugdale
Jun 8, 2011, 11:12 PM
A typical business with multiple computers each used by one person will need to pay $29.99 per computer to upgrade to Lion via the App Store, and will need a separate Apple ID for each employee or computer.

There is no way my departmental admin is going to create an apple ID for me and associate a departmental credit card with that account. Doing so would allow me to purchase apps with no approval and no limits to a credit card I am not authorized to use.

How are other businesses going to handle this issue?

maclaptop
Jun 8, 2011, 11:16 PM
The ugly truth no one wants to acknowledge is this is nothing more than Apple removing choices as usual and locking down the jail even tighter. Prior to the first iPhone there wasn't a term called Jailbreaking, how convenient that iWorshippers overlook this.

Want Apples newest OS?

You WILL FOLLOW Steves Orders... ha..ha..ha

Feeling Captive?

kurosov
Jun 8, 2011, 11:16 PM
I was pleasantly surprised to see the reduced cost over snow leopard considering vat has risen 5% since the release of snow leopard here in the UK

Eddyisgreat
Jun 8, 2011, 11:18 PM
Here in our office, we have a 160 Mbps down/10 Mbps up connection that costs us about $60 a month. And the speeds are real, not some "Comcastic" advertising BS.


//Shrug. I pay slightly less than $60 for this and I don't think it's that bad. Would rather be in Japan but oh well :D

http://www.speedtest.net/result/1333164598.png (http://www.speedtest.net)

AppleDroid
Jun 8, 2011, 11:22 PM
Did anybody read/see the part where Lion installs a recovery partition? No more need for an external boot for a straight reinstall.

And, of course, the Genius Bar can get Lion installed on your new HDD when it fails -- if you're still using those old things :p

Also, the App Store download only does work on 5 machines -- Just like all other App Store downloads! It's no longer an ethereal *license* restriction, it's not a soft-encoded, enterprise-level encrypted restriction.

Except for those of us who have a Mac Pro and don't want to haul it around. Plus if the hard drive dies that partition isn't going to do you much good.

jlgolson
Jun 8, 2011, 11:23 PM
...is actually •3300, not •4400. Always was.
You're right! A regrettable typo. Fixed.

ftaok
Jun 8, 2011, 11:23 PM
That will NEVER - EVER happen. Not the paying part, the separate Apple ID for each employee or computer. Which is why I asked the question in the first place. How would one go about getting Lion for 100 machines - legit - if it's only a download from the Mac App Store??? I don't see any mention of it anywhere from Apple. I thought maybe someone would know.
Post #36 has a link to small business licensing. It's not updated with Lion info, but there's a phone number that you can call to inquire.

Baron58
Jun 8, 2011, 11:28 PM
The ugly truth no one wants to acknowledge is this is nothing more than Apple removing choices as usual and locking down the jail even tighter. Prior to the first iPhone there wasn't a term called Jailbreaking, how convenient that iWorshippers overlook this.

Want Apples newest OS?

You WILL FOLLOW Steves Orders... ha..ha..ha

Feeling Captive?

It's not a truth, and therefore does not need acknowledgement.

There is no 'jail', except what you imagine in your own mind and lie about in posts here.

Prior to the first iPhone, there were LOTS of locked-down phones, and lots of cracks for them. You clearly never modified custom firmware images and reflashed a motorola RAZR or v551, did you? I did, before the iPhone was even a thought in your little mind. Howardforums.com was the place to be for that about, say, 6 or 7 years ago....

I do not feel captive at all. I simply feel rage at the false things you're posting.

Besides, OS X is unix. Open up a terminal, and compile whatever you want from source. All the 'freedom' you can imagine is right there, waiting for you, for free, without restriction. If you're not clever enough to take advantage of it, that's your own fault. Quit blaming others for your shortcomings.

Leddy
Jun 8, 2011, 11:30 PM
I'm going to purchase a new iMac once Lion is out - it'll be interesting to see how the software is supplied with it - I'm betting they'll switch to usb Flash drives like with the MacBook Air.

re. maclaptop "jail" comments - Apple has a certain approach. If you don't like it, don't buy their products - simple really.

If you wish to troll, do it somewhere else.

ftaok
Jun 8, 2011, 11:36 PM
I'm going to purchase a new iMac once Lion is out - it'll be interesting to see how the software is supplied with it - I'm betting they'll switch to usb Flash drives like with the MacBook Air.

re. maclaptop "jail" comments - Apple has a certain approach. If you don't like it, don't buy their products - simple really.

If you wish to troll, do it somewhere else.On an iMac, I'd be willing to bet that Apple will use a recovery partition. Actually, I think Restore DVDs will be the most likely scenario.

skier777
Jun 8, 2011, 11:49 PM
Nice, 30 bucks is cheap.
Apple is finally taking some tips from microsoft.

They make the product cheap or free or easy to steal so that it proliferates the market, people learn how to use it and then continue to adopt it. Office Ultimate 2007 was *given* away in a sense when MS decided that you didn't have to have a key to install it but it sure as hell got the .docx format out there and forced businesses and schools to buy office.

I think apple has another motive here, to get people into the app store. Lion will be the first ever major computer operating system that you cannot buy with cash...

knownikko
Jun 8, 2011, 11:57 PM
I also want to know how people are going to install Lion who still have Tiger on there computers and canít access the App Store.


Pretty sure no computer that shipped with Tiger can be upgraded to Lion anyway, so the point is moot. Lion requires a 64 bit processor (Core 2 Duo or later).

MacVault
Jun 9, 2011, 12:07 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8G4 Safari/6533.18.5)

I never do an 'upgrade' with major version. Am I really out of luck? And yea, what about those on slow connections? Or say I buy a used Mac on craigslist and it has no OS installed.. How do I install the Lion? Buy the snow leopard first on disk and then upgrade? Sounds absurd! I don't mind download distribution, but let my download the full installer to burn to DVD.

Yvan256
Jun 9, 2011, 12:35 AM
//Shrug. I pay slightly less than $60 for this and I don't think it's that bad. Would rather be in Japan but oh well :D

Image (http://www.speedtest.net)

It's not that bad. I pay 25.00$CAD/month for cable internet at 2 Mbps download/512 kbps upload with a 35 GB upload+download monthly cap. No other choice of ISP either... They do offer 5, 8, 12 and 20 Mbps but the price more than double to get the 5 Mbps, so imagine the cost for the other speeds...

PraisiX-windows
Jun 9, 2011, 12:40 AM
Snow Leopard didn't cost $29 did it? That was only the upgrade that cost that, right? - Where as if you wanted to buy it from scratch it was $129 or something, I don't get the "99 cents more for Lion than SL" in, (was it canada?) then, because I assume the $29 for Lion is going to be for the full package.

Edit: Also, the article says that the price didn't change much in the US/Canada, it only rose by 3%, and at the same time that the main reason for the change is pricing is cost savings, how on earth does that make sense, it's more expensive, which must be due to VERY effective cost savings? - OP, you lost me there.. - Albeit my IQ can be counted on 2 hands.

frankk
Jun 9, 2011, 12:50 AM
Snow Leopard didn't cost $29 did it? That was only the upgrade that cost that, right? - Where as if you wanted to buy it from scratch it was $129 or something, I don't get the "99 cents more for Lion than SL" in, (was it canada?) then, because I assume the $29 for Lion is going to be for the full package.

Edit: Also, the article says that the price didn't change much in the US/Canada, it only rose by 3%, and at the same time that the main reason for the change is pricing is cost savings, how on earth does that make sense, it's more expensive, which must be due to VERY effective cost savings? - OP, you lost me there.. - Albeit my IQ can be counted on 2 hands.

SL was sold as an upgrade, but worked as an install. At least for me.

frankk
Jun 9, 2011, 12:51 AM
Pretty sure no computer that shipped with Tiger can be upgraded to Lion anyway, so the point is moot. Lion requires a 64 bit processor (Core 2 Duo or later).

That true is it? Pity.

Ibjr
Jun 9, 2011, 01:04 AM
Hopefully we can look back on this in a year or two and declare it a win against piracy. Software like Adobe Creative Suite is so expensive because so many people take it for free. Eliminating (or close to it, I'm guessing someone will try to figure some way around it) piracy is a bonus for everyone except the pirates.

Why would Adobe raise prices to recoup money lost to piracy when they have infinite copies of their good? Quit applying economics that only make sense when there is a finite supply of a good. The invisible hand doesn't set prices -- they're set by MBAs looking at spreadsheets. Even if piracy could be totally eradicated, Adobe wouldn't drop their prices as long as professionals were willing to pay an arm and a leg for the product.

Because of what I do for a living i hope we can eliminate piracy but i don't delude myself into thinking it'll encourage price drops.

maril1111
Jun 9, 2011, 01:16 AM
Pretty sure no computer that shipped with Tiger can be upgraded to Lion anyway, so the point is moot. Lion requires a 64 bit processor (Core 2 Duo or later).

Actually your wrong for example the iMac 7.1 shipped with tiger and has an intel core 2 duo also the Mac Mini 2.1 and the Macbook in 2007 shipped with Tiger but you can still upgrade them to Lion

procksa49er1120
Jun 9, 2011, 01:26 AM
If I my father and brother (living in same household) each have a Lion compatible Mac, but our Macs use different iTunes logins will we have to purchase 3 copies of Lion? or just one at $29.99

FalconDelta
Jun 9, 2011, 01:29 AM
I don't think the data here is robust enough to conclude that downward pressure on OS pricing is primarily the result of digital delivery. Such an idea is interesting and worthy of further examination, but this report does not seem to pass academic muster. Data set considered is too limited and as others have mentioned does not seem to account for currency fluctuations, etc.:confused:

Perhaps the only thing we can safely conclude is that Lion is the "greenest" distribution yet. Digital distribution = smaller carbon footprint.

SandynJosh
Jun 9, 2011, 01:30 AM
the single user pack can still be installed on 5 computers. :p

From what I gathered from the keynote presentation the new number is 10 Macs for Lion and 10 iDevices for iOS5.

tatonka
Jun 9, 2011, 01:31 AM
Pretty sure no computer that shipped with Tiger can be upgraded to Lion anyway, so the point is moot. Lion requires a 64 bit processor (Core 2 Duo or later).
That true is it? Pity.

No it is not .. my 2007 MBP for all we know will run Lion just fine and did ship with Tiger installed (although I later got Leopard as a free upgrade with the up to date program).

T.

SandynJosh
Jun 9, 2011, 01:37 AM
If I my father and brother (living in same household) each have a Lion compatible Mac, but our Macs use different iTunes logins will we have to purchase 3 copies of Lion? or just one at $29.99

Due to the keynote presentation it does seem as some things are tied to the iTunes ID and some to the Apple ID. However it does seem as though all three computers will need the $29.99 OS upgrade.

Apple will be keeping track as to what software you have bought from the Mac Store, so effectively you can go back for additional free downloads if your OS or other apps become corrupted...so they are effectively serving as an off-site backup for you in this respect.

There are many unanswered questions yet, but I'm sure all will become clear by the time Lion roars.

SandynJosh
Jun 9, 2011, 01:46 AM
Pretty sure no computer that shipped with Tiger can be upgraded to Lion anyway, so the point is moot. Lion requires a 64 bit processor (Core 2 Duo or later).

Don't spread disinformation when you really don't know what you're talking about. Apple has been shipping Core 2 Duo CPUs since 2006 when Tiger, 10.4, was the current OS.

res1233
Jun 9, 2011, 01:54 AM
Except for those of us who have a Mac Pro and don't want to haul it around. Plus if the hard drive dies that partition isn't going to do you much good.

Solution? Boot partition on the Time Machine disk, with support for network booting from disk images. Sounds like it would solve the issue for the majority of us. :D That has to be one of my best ideas ever! ©Me 2011

The next step would be to just make the Time Machine partition bootable itself, thereby making a very automated restore possible.

In fact, this would allow Apple to easily issue updates to the data contained on the boot partition or time machine partition, which it couldn't do for a physical disk. To be honest, this sounds downright ideal.

bananas
Jun 9, 2011, 02:15 AM
I'd like to know what's Apple's answer to the enterprise and educational IT departments..

When you have hundreds or thousands of Macs it doesn't make sense to download the OS each time from the internet. Also when you need to reinstall a Mac, you don't want to install Snow Leopard first and then upgrade. And NO, restore partition is not a suitable solution for enterprise and edu.

gnasher729
Jun 9, 2011, 02:16 AM
Despite the fact that I don't understand your last sentence at all, I agree -- the cheaper updates means more people will upgrade which puts more Macs at the same level. Adoption of new APIs and core services will go faster as a result.

As a developer, it was hard to say to a potential customer "well you have to pay $129 for Leopard first if you want to use my software because it won't run on Tiger" because it means losing sales. Now with the Mac App Store, you could require the customer to have 10.6.6 at least because otherwise they couldn't buy your software anyway. And sales doubled. Now with 10.7, it is much easier to say "well you have to pay $29 for Lion if you want to use my software".


1) I suspect Apple has built in the potential price of software piracy into their titles. Any intermediate-level user can BitTorrent a .dmg and download a piece of Apple software that doesn't require registration. I would have no idea how to distribute something downloaded off the App Store. Does anyone here? (DISCLAIMER: I'm just asking a theoretical, academic question!)

Apple's OS comes with a huge hardware dongle that is called a "Macintosh". Apple gets their money from you buying a Mac; anything they get from you for OS software is just nice to have, but not essential. It is _good_ for Apple if everyone upgrades to the latest OS. So they set the price to get a combination of two effects: As many 10.7 users as possible, and getting some cash for the OS doesn't hurt, but isn't essential.


also want to know how people are going to install Lion who still have Tiger on there computers and can’t access the App Store.

The same as they installed Leopard and Snow Leopard: They didn't buy it, and they didn't install it. They can do the same with Lion.

res1233
Jun 9, 2011, 02:17 AM
I'd like to know what's Apple's answer to the enterprise and educational IT departments..

When you have hundreds or thousands of Macs it doesn't make sense to download the OS each time from the internet. Also when you need to reinstall a Mac, you don't want to install Snow Leopard first and then upgrade. And NO, restore partition is not a suitable solution for enterprise and edu.

My solution solves the restore problem, assuming they use Time Machine. ;) Distribution is the real problem. Unless... Macs could be made aware of other macs on the network with Lion, much like how Dropbox is aware of other macs running dropbox, and copy the installer over the network for running locally? I think I'm on to something! I really think Apple could have done this as the tech has already been proven, as I said, with dropbox... It's a shame really.

hppy29
Jun 9, 2011, 02:24 AM
Unless they said this in a different spot of the Keynote, you're remembering this wrongly. Go 36 minutes into the Keynote to where Phil Schiller is explaining how to buy Lion. He specifically says "since it follows Mac App Store rules", you can "use it on all of you authorized personal Macs, so you don't have to buy multiple copies". Mac App Store rules is that you can authorize all of your Macs, no limits.

Mac App Store rules are not the same as iTunes authorization rules. There are no computer limits on the Mac App Store.

Check out the attached pic from Apple's website. Explicitly says that apps purchased from the MAS can be installed on every Mac you own.

Incidentally, I just signed out of my Mac App Store and purchased apps worked fine.


To back this up, all anyone had to do was read the Mac APP store terms and conditions at the bottom of the page, it says you can download it as many times as you like for personal use...

rikscha
Jun 9, 2011, 02:28 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Eurozone is not represented by a French flag. That's pure laziness or ignorance.

bananas
Jun 9, 2011, 02:31 AM
If I my father and brother (living in same household) each have a Lion compatible Mac, but our Macs use different iTunes logins will we have to purchase 3 copies of Lion? or just one at $29.99

You should be fine with one copy. You can login to App store with one iTunes login on all of the computers in your home.

037291
Jun 9, 2011, 02:32 AM
If i consider the price of itunes vouchers when they are on special i could get Lion for about 25 Bucks :):) ( Note these sales are on nearly every month and are often 20% off)

OllyW
Jun 9, 2011, 02:38 AM
If i consider the price of itunes vouchers when they are on special i could get Lion for about 25 Bucks :):) ( Note these sales are on nearly every month and are often 20% off)

It's only going to cost me £14 after I took advantage of a deal offering two £15 vouchers for £20 the other day. :)

WickedStealthy
Jun 9, 2011, 02:41 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Eurozone is not represented by a French flag. That's pure laziness or ignorance.


Indeed that was really the first picture which hurt my eyes. The last thing I want to be associated with is France :D Their prime companies rule our market as real monopolists ... with consent of the EU and our own government

bananas
Jun 9, 2011, 02:42 AM
My solution solves the restore problem, assuming they use Time Machine. ;) Distribution is the real problem. Unless... Macs could be made aware of other macs on the network with Lion, much like how Dropbox is aware of other macs running dropbox, and copy the installer over the network for running locally? I think I'm on to something! I really think Apple could have done this as the tech has already been proven, as I said, with dropbox... It's a shame really.

Well, that's a wrong assumption. TM is not enterpise ready.

Physical installation media or netrestore image is the only suitable solution for enterprise.

Goldfinger
Jun 9, 2011, 02:45 AM
I have one HUGE issue with this App Store. Apple does not send invoices with VAT when you purchase something from the iTunes store/App store and it's probably the same thing for the Mac App store.

This is AFAIK illegal and I'm really thinking of sending a letter of complaint to the ministry of finance here so they can investigate.

I would love to buy Lion (and Aperture) through the App Store for my business but if I can't get an invoice with my detailed VAT information and my VAT number on it, it's useless.

rheuter
Jun 9, 2011, 02:55 AM
I just tested the speed of my work connection (which is not as fast as my home connection) at speedtest.net (http://www.speedtest.net/) and worked out from this (http://www.t1shopper.com/tools/calculate/downloadcalculator.php) download calculator that it will take me 13 minutes to download Lion.


Awww... poor you... 13 mins? My condolences...

I, on the other hand, is not as unfortunate as you are as it will only take me less than 6 mins to download Lion.:D

redkamel
Jun 9, 2011, 02:58 AM
Apple was never too strict on OS installs (eg no keys etc). I am pretty sure once you DL Lion, its there. The OS isn't going to just turn off or downgrade because an account is deauthorized...that would be crazy. Its more likely they will monitor how many times an account downloads SL. Too many times, and you are busted.

Also in regards to the whole "jail" thing...I've never understood it or seen it defined. How am in a "jail"? I can download any Mac program I want, there is all sorts of programs, and I can do whatever I want with my music, pictures etc. In fact, I can and DO do more with my stuff than most PC people. The Apple programs are tightly integrated and consist of a mail, address, calendar, photo and music programs. Its not like I need or can get better ones that what is bundled (maybe music), but I have the option to. The only "locked" device I own is my iphone, but then again, almost all phones are "locked" to their manufacturer's software. And for the iphone/ipad, there is a reason its locked down and its a damn good one. I don't want to download POS untested apps for a device that runs on battery, runs a mobile OS, can't be easily debugged/repaired in the field and is essential to my day to day functioning/business/social life.

rikscha
Jun 9, 2011, 03:17 AM
It's only going to cost me £14 after I took advantage of a deal offering two £15 vouchers for £20 the other day. :)

where did you find this offer?

rikscha
Jun 9, 2011, 03:20 AM
I have one HUGE issue with this App Store. Apple does not send invoices with VAT when you purchase something from the iTunes store/App store and it's probably the same thing for the Mac App store.

This is AFAIK illegal and I'm really thinking of sending a letter of complaint to the ministry of finance here so they can investigate.

I would love to buy Lion (and Aperture) through the App Store for my business but if I can't get an invoice with my detailed VAT information and my VAT number on it, it's useless.

they sent you a receipt for every itunes store purchase. is the procedure different for the mac app store?

bpaluzzi
Jun 9, 2011, 03:27 AM
Translated. The cover charge to get into the club begins at $29.99.

It's the gateway to expenditures higher than your most vivid imagination. The cost of using Lion will far outweigh just the money you spend on an annual basis.

Suddenly $129.99 will look like chump change.

Fasten your seat belts, you're gonna need em :)

What on earth are you talking about?

OllyW
Jun 9, 2011, 03:28 AM
where did you find this offer?

I think it was one of the greeting card chains but I can't remember which one.

These sort of offers come up fairly often. I also got a £15 card for £10 from Morrison's on Mother's Day. It's Father's Day next weekend so keep a look out for special deals.

they sent you a receipt for every itunes store purchase. is the procedure different for the mac app store?

The receipts they send are not VAT invoices.

roadbloc
Jun 9, 2011, 03:35 AM
I'd still prefer a DVD.

Goldfinger
Jun 9, 2011, 03:36 AM
they sent you a receipt for every itunes store purchase. is the procedure different for the mac app store?

Sure but the thing is that a normal receipt is useless for tax purposes in Europe. You need an actual invoice which mentions MY vat number (every business has a unique VAT number) and THEIR vat number. They also have to show a breakdown of the price.

For example: Lion:
Lion VAT excluded*: €19,74
VAT 21,5%: €4,25
Total VAT included: €23,99

*I'm taking into account a VAT percentage of 21,5%, which is the VAT in Ireland where Apple Europe is based.

Another thing: Seeing as they are based in Ireland (or Luxembourg, the iTunes store is in Luxembourg) they have to be able to provide an invoice without VAT. A so called intra community delivery. But they can't/won't. This, AFAIK, is against European trade laws.

It was not a huge issue with iTunes since businesses don't really buy music (they could though). But with Apps moving to the App store this is becoming a huge issue. Especially if there is no option to buy the software in a brick and mortar store like with Lion. Or when there is a huge price discrimination between the online and boxed version of the software (Aperture).

The way they do it now makes it impossible to recoup the VAT for a business.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/work/small-business/article.html?in_article_id=500346&in_page_id=10 this is an interesting article. Everybody who is VAT registered should file a complaint.

bpaluzzi
Jun 9, 2011, 03:37 AM
From what I gathered from the keynote presentation the new number is 10 Macs for Lion and 10 iDevices for iOS5.

No, as has been posted several times, there are 3 possibilities for number of Macs:
a) Personal (non-commercial) use, on an unlimited number of computers owned or controlled by that person; or

(b) Commercial use, on an unlimited number of computers used by a single person; or

(c) Commercial use, on a single computer used by multiple people.

Don't spread disinformation when you really don't know what you're talking about.

Oh, the irony ;-)

sk8mash
Jun 9, 2011, 03:40 AM
This article is stupid.

aussie_geek
Jun 9, 2011, 03:57 AM
Good to see Apple will be lowering the price. Still sux that we have to pay more than the USA here in the Australia for Lion even considering our $ is worth more...:)

aussie_geek
Jun 9, 2011, 03:59 AM
I'd still prefer a DVD.

Lets hope it is a .pkg file or something you can back up to a DVD. It will be a real pain having to reinstall snow leopard and then go to the app store to re download lion if you want to reinstall OSX for some reason....

bigjobby
Jun 9, 2011, 04:03 AM
Sure but the thing is that a normal receipt is useless for tax purposes in Europe. You need an actual invoice which mentions MY vat number (every business has a unique VAT number) and THEIR vat number. They also have to show a breakdown of the price.

For example: Lion:
Lion VAT excluded*: Ä19,74
VAT 21,5%: Ä4,25
Total VAT included: Ä23,99

*I'm taking into account a VAT percentage of 21,5%, which is the VAT in Ireland where Apple Europe is based.

Another thing: Seeing as they are based in Ireland (or Luxembourg, the iTunes store is in Luxembourg) they have to be able to provide an invoice without VAT. A so called intra community delivery. But they can't/won't. This, AFAIK, is against European trade laws.

It was not a huge issue with iTunes since businesses don't really buy music (they could though). But with Apps moving to the App store this is becoming a huge issue. Especially if there is no option to buy the software in a brick and mortar store like with Lion. Or when there is a huge price discrimination between the online and boxed version of the software (Aperture).

The way they do it now makes it impossible to recoup the VAT for a business.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/work/small-business/article.html?in_article_id=500346&in_page_id=10 this is an interesting article. Everybody who is VAT registered should file a complaint.

Adding to your comments, some businesses require the physical boxed software for auditing purposes which is impossible with this method of distribution.

Also, the software licence would belong to an individual and not the organisation which can cause problems further down the line especially for larger organisations. Therefore, a physical distribution should also be an option.

limo79
Jun 9, 2011, 04:15 AM
New OS will be distributed via internet (AppStore), so price shall be the same for each country: 29.99 USD.

OllyW
Jun 9, 2011, 04:26 AM
US prices don't include sales tax. European prices include VAT.

Goldfinger
Jun 9, 2011, 04:27 AM
Adding to your comments, some businesses require the physical boxed software for auditing purposes which is impossible with this method of distribution.

Also, the software licence would belong to an individual and not the organisation which can cause problems further down the line especially for larger organisations. Therefore, a physical distribution should also be an option.

Very good points. I think I'm gonig to prepare a small letter to Apple tonight and also to the Ministry of Finance.

This is a nonsense. New OS will be distributed via internet (AppStore), so price shall be the same for each country. I am also curious how do they calculate these prices???

29,99 USD = 20,52 EUR which is less than actual Apple price: 23,99 EUR!!!
But maybe Steve has own special "Apple Currency Converter" which is not compatible with global exchange rates.

When you add the average VAT percentage you get to Ä23,99... (actually even a little bit more..) For once the pricing in reasonable.

rcp27
Jun 9, 2011, 04:43 AM
If I my father and brother (living in same household) each have a Lion compatible Mac, but our Macs use different iTunes logins will we have to purchase 3 copies of Lion? or just one at $29.99

Can you not change the account that the app store connects to? You certainly can with the iTunes store. If so, set all computers to one accuont, buy Lion on that account, install Lion on them all, then reset the App store account back to the individual ones.

SimonTheSoundMa
Jun 9, 2011, 04:45 AM
Systems do need bare metal reinstalls on occasion - and there's no way an enterprise or educational institution is going to go around to each machine and log in with a corporate App Store account.

They don't go around each machine, you have never had to do this with OS X. You use OS X Server to push updates remotely. If a machine has a new HDD, you just net boot the machine, run NetRestore, and then the OS, all your apps and settings install.

http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/features/client-management.html

I have OS X Server on my old iMac, I use it to push updates to all 5 other Macs I have at home.

aucl
Jun 9, 2011, 05:01 AM
//Shrug. I pay slightly less than $60 for this and I don't think it's that bad. Would rather be in Japan but oh well :D

Image (http://www.speedtest.net)

http://www.speedtest.net/result/1333475919.png
Not in Japan, but still ok ;)

cheesymogul
Jun 9, 2011, 05:02 AM
Hopefully we can look back on this in a year or two and declare it a win against piracy. Software like Adobe Creative Suite is so expensive because so many people take it for free. Eliminating (or close to it, I'm guessing someone will try to figure some way around it) piracy is a bonus for everyone except the pirates.
No it's actually the other way round.
Software like Adobe Creative Suite is being so much pirated, because that stuff is way to EXPENSIVE!
Adobe software has never been affordable. Jump two generations of their updates (just paid bug-fixes really) and you have to pay full price again!

If Apple is going to sell FCS as download only, I'll be even forced to switch to Adobe Premiere!
There is no way, I will be able to keep a reliable connection for that long.
I'll call myself lucky if Lion will download at all.

I'm looking forward to piss Apple customer service off, by asking them to send me their software on DVD or BluRay (sic). It will be either that or I want my money back.

bushido
Jun 9, 2011, 05:04 AM
Image (http://www.speedtest.net/result/1333475919.png)
Not in Japan, but still ok ;)

omg jealous, i live downtown in a big city of germany and i get 0.7 mbs

and eww at the french flag representing "eurozone"

cheesymogul
Jun 9, 2011, 05:07 AM
Pretty sure no computer that shipped with Tiger can be upgraded to Lion anyway, so the point is moot. Lion requires a 64 bit processor (Core 2 Duo or later).
WRONG! My 2.1 Macbook (late 2006 model) was still shipped with Tiger and will handle Lion just fine.

bolen
Jun 9, 2011, 05:13 AM
In Sweden it's a ~28% price decrease from Snow Leopard! Sweet.

gnasher729
Jun 9, 2011, 05:19 AM
where did you find this offer?

Haven't seen that one, but I got two £15 vouchers for £25 at Argos. Which is a strong argument against everyone moaning about Apple's supposed 30% cut: If I buy software with a sticker price of £30 and pay with these vouchers, the developer gets £21. Argos got £25 minus their bank fees. I can't imagine they sell these below cost, so I'd say Apple gets £25 or less.

They just offer these from time to time; you need to check their website. And keep track of which friends and relatives like iTunes vouchers as birthday/christmas presents.

marksman
Jun 9, 2011, 05:23 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8G4 Safari/6533.18.5)

If you cant find a way to download lion you probably don't need it

farleysmaster
Jun 9, 2011, 05:50 AM
Typical frothing at the mouth over rumours and guess work.

Apple's smart enough not to alienate their business and volume purchasers (and who of those are going to want to update on day 1...?), so I'd say it's about 95% sure there'll be a DVD or USB solution.

And if there's not, they've shot themselves in the foot. And it's hard to see why they'd do that.

(Can't OS X Server run a local software updates server? I'm guessing that might come into play).

SimonTheSoundMa
Jun 9, 2011, 06:02 AM
If Apple is going to sell FCS as download only, I'll be even forced to switch to Adobe Premiere!
There is no way, I will be able to keep a reliable connection for that long.
I'll call myself lucky if Lion will download at all.

I'm looking forward to piss Apple customer service off, by asking them to send me their software on DVD or BluRay (sic). It will be either that or I want my money back.
People moaned like this when they stopped including the large reference manuals with FCP and Logic. As it happened, all you had to do was call Apple and they shipped them out to you. They do look after their Pro users.

I'm sure there will be physical discs if you ask. Most edit suits and recording studios do not have internet connections, or share the same internal network for a purpose.

aucl
Jun 9, 2011, 06:11 AM
omg jealous, i live downtown in a big city of germany and i get 0.7 mbs

and eww at the french flag representing "eurozone"

OMG, ... i have better rates even mobile,,,
http://www.speedtest.net/iphone/120321653.png

nostromo77
Jun 9, 2011, 06:17 AM
Sorry if this has been asked before,

But, how do people who DO NOT have access to blazing fast internet, get the new LION?

I mean, I'm personally a bit sick that everything on the computer these days is so damn dependent on the internet that sometimes, if the net isn't working the computer suddenly becomes useless. I'm sorry but paying £1500 for a machine that's useless without the world wide web shouldn't cost that much. Granted it's not that bad yet, but we are closer on every new update to the OS, to be completely dependent on the web for full functionality.

So my question is, how do I install LION without being online? And how do I do a clean install with Lion on my HDD? (Format and then install anew).
:confused:

nostromo77
Jun 9, 2011, 06:20 AM
Typical frothing at the mouth over rumours and guess work.

Apple's smart enough not to alienate their business and volume purchasers (and who of those are going to want to update on day 1...?), so I'd say it's about 95% sure there'll be a DVD or USB solution.

And if there's not, they've shot themselves in the foot. And it's hard to see why they'd do that.

(Can't OS X Server run a local software updates server? I'm guessing that might come into play).

I'd love it if it was on a nifty USB stick! It's not going to be more than 4GB anyway, so that would be amazing.

I'm an old MacUSER, I mean I've been buying MacOS 7.5 and onwards. So... I still remember (and have) the discs where the MacOS 8.0 was on with Bare Naked Ladies music video to show off QT...

Ahh, it was so simple to program for the mac back then... ;)

bigjobby
Jun 9, 2011, 06:25 AM
Here's a theory... are they only releasing it via the App Store initially to the masses to identify any problems before releasing it on a DVD with all the fixes? Who knows aye.:rolleyes:

ericmooreart
Jun 9, 2011, 06:31 AM
Boxed version please. If I can pay 60 bucks for Starcraft 2 then a little more for boxed Lion is no big deal.

***Note Starcraft 2 is sold as a digital download AND a boxed version

wvdhoogen
Jun 9, 2011, 06:48 AM
Given that the info on updating to lion on apple's site is quite specific to updating on day 1 ("To upgrade on day one" and "... the day it's available") this at least suggests some alternative ways to come later on.

ufkdo
Jun 9, 2011, 06:56 AM
Snow Leopard was 69 TL (Turkish Liras) in Turkey, which means around $45, so I am glad they will sell Lion as App Store exclusive.

farleysmaster
Jun 9, 2011, 06:57 AM
Here's a theory... are they only releasing it via the App Store initially to the masses to identify any problems before releasing it on a DVD with all the fixes? Who knows aye.:rolleyes:

Or so that downloaders can get it the day the GM is locked down. Printing and distribution take time, so why make the majority of users who don't care about DVDs wait? It might even make sense for the first DVD release for volume users to be 10.7.1 release as businesses aren't going to want to jump straight in to the point zero release anyway (and how long does it typically take for the point one release? 2-6 weeks?)

KnightWRX
Jun 9, 2011, 07:06 AM
If you cant find a way to download lion you probably don't need it

Not everyone uses computer for online only uses.

Plus not everyone is against downloading Lion, some might just find the Mac App Store uninteresting and have no wish to submit their CC info there. Others might just be peeved because there is no more 49$ family pack and Lion is going to cost them extra because all the Macs in the household don't share accounts and CCs.

Limiting options limits adoption. What a concept.

ftaok
Jun 9, 2011, 07:17 AM
snip

Others might just be peeved because there is no more 49$ family pack and Lion is going to cost them extra because all the Macs in the household don't share accounts and CCs.

With regards to this scenario, I've surmised (as have others) that you'll be able to login to all of your compatible Macs with a single Apple ID to the Mac App Store to download and install Lion. Afterwards, if you wish, you can log out of the Mac App Store with the "common" Apple ID and re-login with different IDs.

I'd be willing to bet that Apple doesn't have any mechanism to check that the Mac App Store is logged in to the correct account before allowing you to boot Lion.

Also, there is a distinction between authorization and installation. To purchase apps on the Mac App Store, you need your Mac to be authorized. After installation, the apps themselves do not need to be authorized. I've tested this last night.

garybUK
Jun 9, 2011, 07:38 AM
Apple's smart enough not to alienate their business and volume purchasers (and who of those are going to want to update on day 1...?), so I'd say it's about 95% sure there'll be a DVD or USB solution.

And if there's not, they've shot themselves in the foot. And it's hard to see why they'd do that.



Funny didn't they do exactly that when they killed the XServe and told people to use a Mac Mini or a Mac Pro? :eek:

bigjobby
Jun 9, 2011, 07:38 AM
Or so that downloaders can get it the day the GM is locked down. Printing and distribution take time, so why make the majority of users who don't care about DVDs wait? It might even make sense for the first DVD release for volume users to be 10.7.1 release as businesses aren't going to want to jump straight in to the point zero release anyway (and how long does it typically take for the point one release? 2-6 weeks?)

Good points... and then there's some organisations who probably won't jump on it til .2 or even .3.

farleysmaster
Jun 9, 2011, 07:47 AM
Funny didn't they do exactly that when they killed the XServe and told people to use a Mac Mini or a Mac Pro? :eek:

There is a difference between no longer making a product and asking people to move to another, and providing a new OS that presumably they want as many people as possible to upgrade to, and making it extremely difficult for businesses to upgrade. Apple are obviously going to have roll out the changes in their own establishments, so it couldn't be too tricky to modify that process for other medium to large businesses.

Sora
Jun 9, 2011, 07:51 AM
I wonder how this will change things for what other OS companies will charge for a major release (namely Microsoft), and how they will choose to deploy their software.
It seems the ecosystem surrounding Apple is what enables them to really innovate and push the envelope.
I couldn't imagine paying $400 for Windows 8 Ultimate Premium Black Edition.

KnightWRX
Jun 9, 2011, 07:55 AM
With regards to this scenario, I've surmised (as have others) that you'll be able to login to all of your compatible Macs with a single Apple ID to the Mac App Store to download and install Lion. Afterwards, if you wish, you can log out of the Mac App Store with the "common" Apple ID and re-login with different IDs.

That doesn't make the purchase legit. What would then stop me from "sharing" the download with everyone I know ? I do stuff legitimately and me and my GF, while we share a home together, do not share our financial accounts or even any of our accounts.

Breaking the EULA kind of goes against the premise of paying for a legitimate copy in the first place. There was no legitimacy question with the Family pack. It was 5 computers in the household, no accounts, logging in, authorizing, etc.. required. If I'm going to end up breaking the EULA and not having a valid license anyhow, why should I even bother giving Apple any money at all ? I'll just go the 0$ route... Doesn't quite make sense.

So either I'll cave and register for the Mac App Store (if I can even find it on my 10.6.6 Mac, I think I deleted it out of boredom) and buy it or I'll just wait for a DVD option, for which I'd pay extra and bother to convert to USB myself to install on my driveless MBA.

Cutting down options cuts down adoption. That's a fact.

Thunderhawks
Jun 9, 2011, 07:59 AM
So is it confirmed that it will be ONLY on the App Store? I want a disc...

Burning?

Thunderhawks
Jun 9, 2011, 08:05 AM
That doesn't make the purchase legit. What would then stop me from "sharing" the download with everyone I know ? I do stuff legitimately and me and my GF, while we share a home together, do not share our financial accounts or even any of our accounts.

Breaking the EULA kind of goes against the premise of paying for a legitimate copy in the first place. There was no legitimacy question with the Family pack. It was 5 computers in the household, no accounts, logging in, authorizing, etc.. required. If I'm going to end up breaking the EULA and not having a valid license anyhow, why should I even bother giving Apple any money at all ? I'll just go the 0$ route... Doesn't quite make sense.

So either I'll cave and register for the Mac App Store (if I can even find it on my 10.6.6 Mac, I think I deleted it out of boredom) and buy it or I'll just wait for a DVD option, for which I'd pay extra and bother to convert to USB myself to install on my driveless MBA.

Cutting down options cuts down adoption. That's a fact.

This is how it works: (Also a fact)

The manufacturer puts out a product and says you can only buy it this way
You like it and figure out how to buy it the way they offer it
You don't like it or the way they sell it, don't buy it.

Out of the 54 million MacUsers world wide, the percentage of kwetchers who want this option or that option etc. is going to be minute in percentage.

Why do some people feel entitled that things must be delivered to their doorstep on a golden platter and you don't have to put any effort whatsoever into what you want?

I would understand the whining if we had to download and install Lion 10 times a day.

This is a one time download and install. (maybe down the road a reinstall)
My confidence in Mac Users tells me they will figure this out!

BTW: The app store app is downloadable on apples website if you need it.

Problems solved. You are welcome:-)

ftaok
Jun 9, 2011, 08:06 AM
That doesn't make the purchase legit.It doesn't make it illegitmate either.

The terms of the Mac App Store allow you to purchase an install apps on all of your Macs, provided you use the same Apple ID. There's no provision that says that you have to stay logged in to the Mac App Store to continue using that app.

Let's say that I own 4 Macs as the head of a household. If my children want to purchase their own software using their own accounts, they can login to the MAS using their own Apple ID. If we want to share common apps (let's say Angry Birds), then I can login to their Mac under my ID to download/install, then logout.

Of course automatic updates would no longer be automatic.

There's nothing there that breaks the terms of conditions of the MAS.

What would then stop me from "sharing" the download with everyone I know ? I do stuff legitimately and me and my GF, while we share a home together, do not share our financial accounts or even any of our accounts.I suppose there's nothing stopping you from sharing it in this case. But that's no different than the situation with install DVDs.

Your situation with your GF is different. You own your Mac. Presumably, she owns her Mac. If you were to use the same Apple ID to purchase apps on the MAS for both you and your GF, you'd be breaking the terms since they specifically say that you can install on multiple Macs that you own (although they also say that you can install on multiple Macs that you "use").

Breaking the EULA kind of goes against the premise of paying for a legitimate copy in the first place. There was no legitimacy question with the Family pack. It was 5 computers in the household, no accounts, logging in, authorizing, etc.. required.

Cutting down options cuts down adoption. That's a fact.The terms of the MAS are different than the terms on previous Box Sets where you and your GF would have been covered. It sucks for you, but this is how Apple is currently handling it. I think it benefits more people than it hurts.

hfletcher
Jun 9, 2011, 08:08 AM
I wonder how much Micro$oft are going to charge for Windows 8?
And how many different versions? :p

Now that you can get Lion for £20, why should MS charge £200 for the 'Home' version..!

farleysmaster
Jun 9, 2011, 08:10 AM
I presume though that the app store downloads an installer rather than a straight forward app, and that all future OS updates will go through Software Update, rather than the App Store.

Out of wonder, are app store apps signed? I presume (again) that if they were, the installer for Lion would be signed, but there'd be nothing related to the purchaser ID in the actual OS (i.e. for confirming legitimacy, or downloading updates, or whatnot).

jonnysods
Jun 9, 2011, 08:12 AM
Even if it went up to $50 in Canada I can't knock this price. Very pleased and amazed.

KnightWRX
Jun 9, 2011, 08:17 AM
This is how it works: (Also a fact)

The manufacturer puts out a product and says you can only buy it this way
You like it and figure out how to buy it the way they offer it
You don't like it or the way they sell it, don't buy it.

In your hurry to berrate me, did you miss this part of my post ? :rolleyes:

So either I'll cave and register for the Mac App Store (if I can even find it on my 10.6.6 Mac, I think I deleted it out of boredom) and buy it or I'll just wait for a DVD option, for which I'd pay extra and bother to convert to USB myself to install on my driveless MBA.

Cutting down options cuts down adoption. That's a fact.

Seriously ? I think everything you stated is something I realise tyvm. The fact remains : The more you limit options the more you hurt adoption. That's a fact, undeniable. With more options, you reach more people. I would gladly pay 49.99$ for a DVD. I'd gladly pay for 39.99$ for a .ISO or .DMG download outside the MAS as I have been installing my OSes over the Internet for the last 12 years or so (Apple isn't quite being innovative here).

I'm just very hesitant to use the Mac App Store for this. I know I don't want to have anything to do with it for applications.

notjustjay
Jun 9, 2011, 08:30 AM
I wonder how this will change things for what other OS companies will charge for a major release (namely Microsoft), and how they will choose to deploy their software.
It seems the ecosystem surrounding Apple is what enables them to really innovate and push the envelope.
I couldn't imagine paying $400 for Windows 8 Ultimate Premium Black Edition.

The ecosystem surrounding Apple is also a moneymaker, which is what enables them to lower the price of the OS update -- which spurs increased adoption, and as a poster pointed out earlier in the thread, encourages more people to have active iTunes accounts with credit cards linked to them.

The reason Apple can charge so much less than Microsoft is because Apple makes money off you everywhere you turn. They make money off the digital download. Presumably you're installing Lion on a Mac, which Apple made money off (unless it's a hackintosh). Once installed, you're likely to buy music, videos, and apps for your Mac, iPhone, or iPad -- and Apple takes a cut of that again. As more and more apps migrate to the App Store, Apple's cut will only keep increasing. Imagine their cut on a full retail copy of Adobe CS5.5!

KnightWRX
Jun 9, 2011, 08:35 AM
It doesn't make it illegitmate either.

If it's not legit, it's illegitimate. I don't do illegitimate.

The terms of the Mac App Store allow you to purchase an install apps on all of your Macs, provided you use the same Apple ID. There's no provision that says that you have to stay logged in to the Mac App Store to continue using that app.

That's the point. My GF's Mac is not my Mac. I don't use, and I certainly won't log into the MAS on it with my CC info. Not that I don't trust her, that's just not how we do stuff together.

ftaok
Jun 9, 2011, 08:54 AM
If it's not legit, it's illegitimate. I don't do illegitimate.Err, no. In this particular case, the terms that Apple puts forth for the MAS can allow for scenarios to be either legit or not legit. That's the point.

If I were to login to my friend's Mac and install Lion, that would not be legit. If I were to login to my Mac (that my daughter also uses), that would be legit.

Apple's terms allow for legitimate uses for owners that have multiple Apple IDs for MAS purchases.


That's the point. My GF's Mac is not my Mac. I don't use, and I certainly won't log into the MAS on it with my CC info. Not that I don't trust her, that's just not how we do stuff together.Then you'll have to buy Lion twice. I know it sucks that the terms are different than previous updates, but that's how it goes.

electrolux76
Jun 9, 2011, 08:56 AM
The post states:
"(app store only)has brought consternation to some, particularly those in rural areas without reliable high-speed Internet and folks in enterprise and educational IT departments.

I'm sorry but anyone in enterprise or educational IT departments that are still deploying OS X by walking around with install discs have no business being called IT professionals.

KnightWRX
Jun 9, 2011, 08:57 AM
Err, no. In this particular case, the terms that Apple puts forth for the MAS can allow for scenarios to be either legit or not legit. That's the point.

Yes, and again : In my scenario, it's not legit. Why are you now in the theoritical world of fantasy scenarios ? I was discussing my particular case. It's not legit, it's unlicensed and thus illegitimate.

What are you arguing exactly ?

Then you'll have to buy Lion twice. I know it sucks that the terms are different than previous updates, but that's how it goes.

Yes, I know, thank you. I said so myself. I also said I'll then just wait and see if there are other options before I cave.

Again, what's your point ? In my case, it both costs more to go the legal route (60$ instead of 50$) and I'm stuck doing the download twice in order to comply to the EULA's of both Lion and the Mac App Store.


I'm sorry but anyone in enterprise or educational IT departments that are still deploying OS X by walking around with install discs have no business being called IT professionals.

And you propose they run around logging into the App Store and download lion ? You're suggesting they break the terms of the license by installing 1 copy on multiple computers when that is not allowed for commercial use ? You're suggesting they forgo their NetInstall infrastructure in favor of the MAS, completely outside the corporate LAN ?

I think you shouldn't tell people that they have no place in IT if you don't even understand the problems faced with the current, only, installation method officially announced.

farleysmaster
Jun 9, 2011, 09:06 AM
Yes, and again : In my scenario, it's not legit. Why are you now in the theoritical world of fantasy scenarios ? I was discussing my particular case. It's not legit, it's unlicensed and thus illegitimate.

What are you arguing exactly ?



Yes, I know, thank you. I said so myself. I also said I'll then just wait and see if there are other options before I cave.

Again, what's your point ? In my case, it both costs more to go the legal route (60$ instead of 50$) and I'm stuck doing the download twice in order to comply to the EULA's of both Lion and the Mac App Store.



And you propose they run around logging into the App Store and download lion ? You're suggesting they break the terms of the license by installing 1 copy on multiple computers when that is not allowed for commercial use ? You're suggesting they forgo their NetInstall infrastructure in favor of the MAS, completely outside the corporate LAN ?

I think you shouldn't tell people that they have no place in IT if you don't even understand the problems faced with the current, only, installation method officially announced.
On the other hand, the EULA's not yet available.

ftaok
Jun 9, 2011, 09:14 AM
Yes, and again : In my scenario, it's not legit. Why are you now in the theoritical world of fantasy scenarios ? I was discussing my particular case. It's not legit, it's unlicensed and thus illegitimate.

What are you arguing exactly ?I'll refer you to post #139 where I answered a scenario that you put out there where "Others might just be peeved because there is no more 49$ family pack and Lion is going to cost them extra because all the Macs in the household don't share accounts and CCs."

Then you came back and posted your particular scenario where my answer wouldn't work. At the time, you were discussing a general case, not your particular situation. Please don't change the scenario then accuse me of arguing off topic.

Bottom line, the new terms will work for some, but won't work for others.

KnightWRX
Jun 9, 2011, 09:14 AM
On the other hand, the EULA's not yet available.

The Mac App Store's is. And my scenario runs afoul of that EULA unless I pay twice and download twice.

I'll refer you to post #139 where I answered a scenario that you put out there where "Others might just be peeved because there is no more 49$ family pack and Lion is going to cost them extra because all the Macs in the household don't share accounts and CCs."

Yes, others who share my scenario. Again, your point ? Do I really have to point out every minute detail to prevent conversations from going off on wild tangents ? Geez.

farleysmaster
Jun 9, 2011, 09:14 AM
On the other hand, the EULA's not yet available.

On the other other hand, I just watched part of the WWDC keynote speech where blokey said "Lion will be available ONLY in the mac app store" which is quite a decisive way of saying it if it only applies to consumers...

ftaok
Jun 9, 2011, 09:22 AM
Yes, others who share my scenario. Again, your point ? Do I really have to point out every minute detail to prevent conversations from going off on wild tangents ? Geez.

Yes, if you want the discussion to stay within a narrow topic band, then you need to be a little more specific. How hard would it have been to say "others who share my scenario" rather than the generic "others"?

Incidentally, you kept the discussion/arguement going by suggesting that it would be illegitimate to install Lion on Macs within the same household that do not share AppleIDs, which is not true. I essentially provided a scenario that seems to adhere to the terms of the MAS, but it won't work in your scenario since you don't own or use GFs Mac. You also seem to be unwilling to share an AppleID with your GF, which is totally fine.

Anyways, I think this particular discussion has been beaten to death.

farleysmaster
Jun 9, 2011, 09:23 AM
The Mac App Store's is. And my scenario runs afoul of that EULA unless I pay twice and download twice.
Do you have an admin account on your GF's computer? That may fall into "on any Apple-branded products running Mac OS X (ďMac ComputerĒ) that you own or control".

It's still possible that as an installer rather than app, Lion may come under a different EULA than the general MAS one, and WWDC man was just being a bit er... non-specific.

KnightWRX
Jun 9, 2011, 09:34 AM
Do you have an admin account on your GF's computer? That may fall into "on any Apple-branded products running Mac OS X (“Mac Computer”) that you own or control".

Why would I have an admin account on my GF's Mac ? It's hers. If you to even start making changes and different scenarios up, you're probably not being 100% legit. I am 100% legit.

Again, I'll probably just cave if there's really no other option, but I'd rather have a more convenient option, which the DVD was.

Yes, if you want the discussion to stay within a narrow topic band, then you need to be a little more specific. How hard would it have been to say "others who share my scenario" rather than the generic "others"?

Implicit. Obviously, "others" who don't share my scenario aren't peeved, so they aren't the others I'm talking about. Reading comprehension, elementary school level.

farleysmaster
Jun 9, 2011, 09:36 AM
Why would I have an admin account on my GF's Mac ? It's hers. If you to even start making changes and different scenarios up, you're probably not being 100% legit. I am 100% legit.

Again, I'll probably just cave if there's really no other option, but I'd rather have a more convenient option, which the DVD was.
You wouldn't. But it may be a loophole, and loopholes are legit until they're closed.

KnightWRX
Jun 9, 2011, 09:42 AM
You wouldn't. But it may be a loophole, and loopholes are legit until they're closed.

Loopholes are what those of lesser morality use to justify their actions even though they know they are running afoul of rules in place. Letter of the law vs spirit of the law.

Scrumper
Jun 9, 2011, 09:45 AM
If we want to share common apps (let's say Angry Birds), then I can login to their Mac under my ID to download/install, then logout. Of course automatic updates would no longer be automatic.

That's a good point that I haven't seen made before. All very well to log in with the same account on your family's different Macs to get the app but you would then have to do that again every time there was an update.

As far as the Lion download goes, yes I'd certainly prefer a physical disc, simply because it gives me more options but I'm hoping that if it really is download only (forever) that there will at least be a facility to burn the .dmg or .pkg to an external removable medium. In my limited experience with the Mac App Store so far, apps have been magically installed as soon as they have downloaded without my ever having seen the install file itself; still less knowing where it resides on my system...if indeed it actually still does. :rolleyes:

maccompaq
Jun 9, 2011, 09:45 AM
To back this up, all anyone had to do was read the Mac APP store terms and conditions at the bottom of the page, it says you can download it as many times as you like for personal use...

Things happen. Your hard drive dies thus your computer no longer works, so you cannot download Lion again.

KnightWRX
Jun 9, 2011, 09:48 AM
In my limited experience with the Mac App Store so far, apps have been magically installed as soon as they have downloaded without my ever having seen the install file itself; still less knowing where it resides on my system...if indeed it actually still does. :rolleyes:

There is no install file. One of the prerequisite to even be approved for Mac App Store inclusion is that your app is simply a self-contained bundle that can be moved to /Applications as the only installation procedure (like all those apps that you simply drag to /Applications).

The file itself resides in /Applications. That's what you download and that's where it got stored.

farleysmaster
Jun 9, 2011, 09:49 AM
Loopholes are what those of lesser morality use to justify their actions even though they know they are running afoul of rules in place. Letter of the law vs spirit of the law.
There's a difference between Civil and Criminal though. If Apple want to specifically exclude a behaviour it's much easier for them to change their EULA than it is to change, say, criminal, or tax law. Still it's a point of opinion.

It's hard to feel you're acting immorally when I could have 40 computers and let my girlfriend use 39 of them, and as long I was in charge of them, I could install Lion on them for 50p each, and you'd need to spend $60 for two. It's not got a lot to do with morals does it? It's pretty arbitrary, and most likely not spelled out in a way that's helpful to you because your case is a very rare one.

farleysmaster
Jun 9, 2011, 09:51 AM
There is no install file. One of the prerequisite to even be approved for Mac App Store inclusion is that your app is simply a self-contained bundle that can be moved to /Applications as the only installation procedure (like all those apps that you simply drag to /Applications).

The file itself resides in /Applications. That's what you download and that's where it got stored.
But there is patently an install file for Lion. It's a special case.

Scrumper
Jun 9, 2011, 09:55 AM
But there is patently an install file for Lion. It's a special case.

I certainly hope there will be!

electrolux76
Jun 9, 2011, 09:56 AM
But there is patently an install file for Lion. It's a special case.

I believe it's downloaded to:
Users/username/Library/Application Support/AppStore

KnightWRX
Jun 9, 2011, 09:56 AM
But there is patently an install file for Lion. It's a special case.

I certainly hope there will be!

The install file is an "App bundle" that resides in /Applications. That is the self-contained application bundle. ;)

The app you're sold is not Lion the OS, it's Lion the installer. You simply run it as you would any other app.

DaveDaveDave
Jun 9, 2011, 10:04 AM
The idea that savings from physical distribution factored in at all is laughable.
....
Snow Leopard was already being sold at a great loss - There's no way $30 a pop comes close to recovering the development cost. They just don't care, because OSX is developed solely to drive hardware sales - not be a viable business on its own.


Snow Leopard and Lion's potential profits are completely different stories. I'll argue that Lion's development will not be a loss on it's own revenue basis, and back it up with numbers:

It's hard to guess how many upgrades of Snow Leopard sold and how many Lion will sell, but this chart should help:

http://www.ifoapplestore.com/stores/charts_graphs.html

It looks to me like somewhere in the ballpark of 5 to 6 million CPUs were sold between the Intel Mac debut (late 2005) and the release of Snow Leopard (late 2009). So let's guestimate it at somewhere between 140 and 180 million in revenue for the Snow Leopard upgrade, and not even include the revenue of new users drawn in to the hardware/software combination by features like Exchange integration.

I wouldn't say it's "laughable", but it is chicken scratch compared to the nearly 40 billion Apple did in 2009.

Lion is a little different - the number of Upgradable Intel CPUs sold to date is much bigger. Almost all CPUs sold since 2007 and many earlier ones are potential sales. CPU sales from 2007 are somewhere around 9 million, resulting in a minimum 270 million in potential upgrade revenue.

With 2 years of development since the Snow Leopard release, if you payed all the engineers 1 million dollars per year each, you could hire 135 engineers. Obviously, that's a wee bit high in salary and a few too many cooks, IMO. ;) Any way you slice it, there's profit.

What's really interesting is when you compare the ratio of profit to employee between Microsoft and Apple: Last I checked, Apple's ratio was double that of Microsofts. :eek:

Dave

wovel
Jun 9, 2011, 10:21 AM
And you propose they run around logging into the App Store and download lion ? You're suggesting they break the terms of the license by installing 1 copy on multiple computers when that is not allowed for commercial use ? You're suggesting they forgo their NetInstall infrastructure in favor of the MAS, completely outside the corporate LAN ?

I think you shouldn't tell people that they have no place in IT if you don't even understand the problems faced with the current, only, installation method officially announced.


These companies will license their upgrade with Apple however they have done it in the past and distribute the upgrade through whatever mechanism they currently use. The licensing mechanisms used by these organizations were never publicly announced in the past. Do you think they went to Apple.com and ordered 250 copies of snow leopard?

http://www.apple.com/education/licensingprogram/
http://store.apple.com/us_smb_78313/browse/campaigns/sb_volume

They have not updated the pages yet but they will. Perhaps they are planning an enterprise Mac app store to go along with the enterprise iOS app store. Apples public announcements cover the consumer market because it is massive and harder to reach. In business and education one person can represent hundreds or thousands of users.

People really need to stop basing complaints on use cases that they obviously do not understand and obviously do not affect them.

The install file is an "App bundle" that resides in /Applications. That is the self-contained application bundle. ;)

The app you're sold is not Lion the OS, it's Lion the installer. You simply run it as you would any other app.

There is a complete bootable dmg image in the location another poster just mentioned.

KnightWRX
Jun 9, 2011, 10:24 AM
They have not updated the pages yet but they will.

And until they do, we won't know for sure. So saying IT people are concerned about the direction Apple is taking don't belong in IT is quite disingenuous.

Hence my "officially announced" comment. You have a few Mac IT people in this thread who very much know what they are doing and are concerned. Just like you have consumers who are because the MAS method is not convenient for them.

wovel
Jun 9, 2011, 10:29 AM
And until they do, we won't know for sure. So saying IT people are concerned about the direction Apple is taking don't belong in IT is quite disingenuous.

Hence my "officially announced" comment. You have a few Mac IT people in this thread who very much know what they are doing and are concerned. Just like you have consumers who are because the MAS method is not convenient for them.

Only foolish IT people are concerned. If they were concerned, they would simply call their rep and ask. If they are professionals with real concerns, they should be contacting a rep and not posting on forums about how concerned they are. There are no posts in this thread from someone who did make the call and was told that they would have to use the Mac App store.

Note too foolish person about to make such a post. Don't forget to include the full name of the rep that told you that.

JGowan
Jun 9, 2011, 10:30 AM
They should make a boxed copy a luxury item that can be ordered over the phone or online that can be mailed to those that live in low speed areas.I'm sure that for those that can at least GET to an Apple store, they can load on and authorize your copy of Lion so that you can take that download home and load it on the rest of your computers. 4GB is a lot for my little town.

... No the difference is a change in business strategy to get new OS updates into users' hands at a more affordable price. Why? Because Lion add to the system lockin attributes of the Mac ecosystem.What a crappy/negative way to spin it, friend. How about they want more of their existing users/fans to enjoy their services at a very affordable price to keep them a very happy and contented customer. They want them to never forget Apple is a quality company that does what it takes to be the best and to offer more in all situations, and can offer many goods and services that others simply can't match and never will. You call it "system lock-in" ... I call it "freaking great service".


They explicitly said it in their latest keynote. I remember this because they said something along the lines of, "...and since this will be a Mac app store download, it can be downloaded on up to 5 machines." Then the audience was cheering like crazy.

You're remembering it WRONG. I just rewatched and Phil said "and because it's of the Mac App Store and the Mac App Store rules, it follows the same rules... when you purchase it, you can use it on all your personal authorized Macs. You don't have to buy multiple copies. That's Lion."

If you own a lot of Macs, you can use it on all of them (not just 5), just like the other Mac software bought on the MAS. You're thinking about the 5-computer limit Apple places on stuff bought on iTunes (music/video). They did that to appease the content creators. Apple doesn't care about that. They just want all their customers on the same page and on the latest version of the OS.

wovel
Jun 9, 2011, 10:32 AM
Why would I have an admin account on my GF's Mac ? It's hers. If you to even start making changes and different scenarios up, you're probably not being 100% legit. I am 100% legit.

Again, I'll probably just cave if there's really no other option, but I'd rather have a more convenient option, which the DVD was.



Implicit. Obviously, "others" who don't share my scenario aren't peeved, so they aren't the others I'm talking about. Reading comprehension, elementary school level.

So burn a DVD then... Mac App Store is only distribution method, not only installation method. You should read TUAW more.

coccodrillo
Jun 9, 2011, 10:36 AM
Sorry, but your calculations are completely wrong.

The US Dollar lost more than 30% of its value compared to Swiss Francs in the past two years. Therefore the price compared to US Dollar stayed more or less the same for Snow Leopard and Lion.

Actually the price for Lion is quite high in Switzerland compared two the US. Taking in account the actual currency conversion Lion should cost around 25 Swiss Francs...

Dr McKay
Jun 9, 2011, 10:41 AM
Much better deal for the UK now, we normally get shafted with Apples pricing. Lion will be $34.50 by exchange.

iIngo
Jun 9, 2011, 10:57 AM
Ah, finally! Le tricolore waving over all of Europe! Vive la France!

KnightWRX
Jun 9, 2011, 10:59 AM
So burn a DVD then... Mac App Store is only distribution method, not only installation method. You should read TUAW more.

Burning a DVD is not legitimate to install on both. Didn't you read the whole sub-thread before interjecting ?

My GF's Mac and my Mac don't share any accounts, including the MAS accounts. It is not legit for me to install my copy of Lion onto her computer if I do buy it through the MAS.

cmwade77
Jun 9, 2011, 11:47 AM
Except -- the price actually dropped much more than this. These prices (at least the US price, presumably the others) are for the single user pack. Lion only comes in the family pack now (all app store downloads can go on 5 machines), so the price actually dropped in the US and everywhere from $49 (or whichever) to $30. That's a $19 price drop in the US -- 38%!
Exactly what I was going to say. In addition, right now Target has App & Bookstore iTunes gift cards on sale for 20% off. Which means that you could save another $6 if you went that route, making it only $24.

Pablo90
Jun 9, 2011, 11:51 AM
Actually in Switzerland the VAT changed from 7.6% to 8% on January 1st, so the discount it's even higher than it looks.
Chapeau, Apple.

Fraaaa
Jun 9, 2011, 11:59 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Mobile/8J2)

It's ridiculous to conclude that the lower price is solely from online delivery. There's no way it cost Apple $100 tondistribute a DVD.

No the difference is a change in business strategy to get new OS updates into users' hands at a more affordable price. Why? Because Lion add to the system lockin attributes of the Mac ecosystem.

Beside that they are going to print way less copies because most of us are going to download, and the proof is in the many downloads already done in the Mac App Store. Second, some don't care and won't upgrade, some that run older operating sistem such as tiger won't upgrade, and all the new Macs are going to be with Lion in.

gnasher729
Jun 9, 2011, 12:06 PM
I presume though that the app store downloads an installer rather than a straight forward app, and that all future OS updates will go through Software Update, rather than the App Store.

Out of wonder, are app store apps signed? I presume (again) that if they were, the installer for Lion would be signed, but there'd be nothing related to the purchaser ID in the actual OS (i.e. for confirming legitimacy, or downloading updates, or whatnot).

If you download any Mac App Store application X onto a Macintosh Y, there will a receipt somewhere in the application that says "application X was downloaded onto Macintosh Y". Apple publishes code that allows a developer to check this. If the developer doesn't care, they don't check it, the receipt is still there. If the developer cares, then they check, and the app will immediately exit if it is a copy. There was a story that some developers messed up and only checked the "was downloaded onto Macintosh Y" part. So I could download an app, copy it to your computer (receipt is completely wrong), you downloaded another app for 99 cents, copied the receipt and it worked, even though the receipt you had was for the wrong app.

el3ktro
Jun 9, 2011, 01:32 PM
A French flag for the Eurozone? Come on ... vive la France, but hey there exists a European flag after all!

Thunderhawks
Jun 9, 2011, 02:01 PM
In your hurry to berrate me, did you miss this part of my post ? :rolleyes:



Seriously ? I think everything you stated is something I realise tyvm. The fact remains : The more you limit options the more you hurt adoption. That's a fact, undeniable. With more options, you reach more people. I would gladly pay 49.99$ for a DVD. I'd gladly pay for 39.99$ for a .ISO or .DMG download outside the MAS as I have been installing my OSes over the Internet for the last 12 years or so (Apple isn't quite being innovative here).

I'm just very hesitant to use the Mac App Store for this. I know I don't want to have anything to do with it for applications.

My point is simple. Apple cannot anticipate everybody's personal situation, be that slow internet, no Apple store nearby or plain dislike of the app store way to get apps.

Apple has not just fallen off the tree NOT to realize this.

So, they put things out for the majority of users.
There will be solutions that we have not heard yet for users who cannot follow what the main stream does.

When a product is launched it is spread as fast as possible to as many people as possible.

After that you take care of the exceptions (I am confident there will be a solution)

There isn't enough detailed info out yet to get worried or upset!

As for people with slow internet, they need to go after their providers, not claiming their downloads don't work because Apples files are too big etc.

KnightWRX
Jun 9, 2011, 02:09 PM
Only foolish IT people are concerned. If they were concerned, they would simply call their rep and ask. If they are professionals with real concerns, they should be contacting a rep and not posting on forums about how concerned they are. There are no posts in this thread from someone who did make the call and was told that they would have to use the Mac App store.

Note too foolish person about to make such a post. Don't forget to include the full name of the rep that told you that.

Since when do Apple reps give information that wasn't officially released by corporate first ?

Remember, as far as entreprise IT goes, Apple operates under the same "No Roadmap, No pre-announcement" policies as they do in the consumer world. Only foolish IT people wouldn't be concerned when it comes to Apple. :rolleyes:

iMacDragon
Jun 9, 2011, 02:09 PM
Much better deal for the UK now, we normally get shafted with Apples pricing. Lion will be $34.50 by exchange.

But not right.. by the normal app store pricing conversions, $30 should be £18 here, not £21. I wonder what's up with that, I hope they're not planning on adjusting the pricing structure.

coccodrillo
Jun 9, 2011, 04:36 PM
But not right.. by the normal app store pricing conversions, $30 should be £18 here, not £21. I wonder what's up with that, I hope they're not planning on adjusting the pricing structure.

Same here: with the correct currency conversion we would pay 5 Swiss Francs less.

Kebabselector
Jun 9, 2011, 05:35 PM
But not right.. by the normal app store pricing conversions, $30 should be £18 here, not £21. I wonder what's up with that, I hope they're not planning on adjusting the pricing structure.

Are you including VAT?

iMacDragon
Jun 9, 2011, 05:48 PM
Are you including VAT?

It's included in pricing, not added on top like in US. And EG pixelmator is on sale currently for $30 on MAS, which in uk translates to £18, same should apply to Lion.


The app store pricing conversion was set when pound was somewhere near $2, and thus is nicely favourable to UK currently.

dempson
Jun 9, 2011, 06:00 PM
A typical business with multiple computers each used by one person will need to pay $29.99 per computer to upgrade to Lion via the App Store, and will need a separate Apple ID for each employee or computer
That will NEVER - EVER happen. Not the paying part, the separate Apple ID for each employee or computer. Which is why I asked the question in the first place. How would one go about getting Lion for 100 machines - legit - if it's only a download from the Mac App Store??? I don't see any mention of it anywhere from Apple. I thought maybe someone would know.

That's why I pointed to volume licensing, which is the correct solution for businesses with at least ten employees or computers. What we don't know yet is how much it will cost, since Apple hasn't announced volume licensing prices for Lion. Ring Apple and ask. See the link in my previous message.

I haven't dealt with volume licensing but I expect it works on the basis of Apple supplying a single copy of the installer which may be branded in some way to identify the owning company, and you use your own internal distribution method to manage installing it on multiple computers. There would be a single point of contact with Apple, and possibly a single Apple ID involved (if it uses Apple IDs at all). The only change for Lion is likely to be the method by which the company IT department obtains the master install image (download instead of a DVD).

Remote Desktop can be used to install software on other computers from a management console, and Mac OS X Server has features like NetInstall to support installing from a networked image.

The App Store and multiple Apple IDs will probably be the cheapest option for companies which have fewer than ten computers or employees, but some in that category may prefer to go with volume licensing to simplify the management procedures, even if it costs more.

gnasher729
Jun 9, 2011, 06:38 PM
But not right.. by the normal app store pricing conversions, $30 should be £18 here, not £21. I wonder what's up with that, I hope they're not planning on adjusting the pricing structure.

You are "wondering what's up with that"? Just ask yourself what you have forgotten. I mean this is ridiculous, every time someone says "UK price should be much less" and every time someone tells them "you forgot to add...". Well, figure it out yourself.

dempson
Jun 9, 2011, 06:51 PM
Pretty sure no computer that shipped with Tiger can be upgraded to Lion anyway, so the point is moot. Lion requires a 64 bit processor (Core 2 Duo or later).

Most Mac models between late 2006 and late 2007 shipped with Tiger and can upgrade to Lion.

Here are a couple of lists of early Intel Mac models, sorted by release month. I've given the Model Identifier for each, and where necessary a brief description based on Apple's official name for that model.

The following Mac models originally shipped with Tiger (10.4) and have a 32-bit Intel processor, so they won't be able to upgrade to Lion, but can run Snow Leopard:

Jan 2006: iMac4,1 (Early 2006)
Feb 2006: MacMini1,1 (Early 2006)
Feb 2006: MacBookPro1,1 (15")
Apr 2006: MacBookPro1,2 (17")
May 2006: MacBook1,1
May 2006: MacBookPro1,1 (15" glossy)
Jul 2006: iMac4,2 (Mid 2006)
Sep 2006: MacMini1,1 (Late 2006)

The following Mac models originally shipped with Tiger (10.4) and have a 64-bit Intel processor, so they will might still be running Tiger but are supported by Lion:

Aug 2006: MacPro1,1
Sep 2006: iMac5,1 (Late 2006 17", 20")
Sep 2006: iMac6,1 (Late 2006 24")
Sep 2006: iMac5,2 (Late 2006 17" with combo drive)
Oct 2006: MacBookPro2,1 (17" Core 2 Duo)
Oct 2006: MacBookPro2,2 (15" Core 2 Duo)
Nov 2006: MacBook2,1 (Late 2006)
Nov 2006: Xserve1,1 (Late 2006)
Apr 2007: MacPro2,1 (8-core)
May 2007: MacBook2,1 (Mid 2007)
Jun 2007: MacBookPro3,1 (Mid 2007 15" and 17")
Aug 2007: MacMini2,1 (Mid 2007)
Aug 2007: iMac7,1 (Mid 2007 20" and 24")

There is a bigger list of models which originally shipped with Leopard (10.5), and might still be running Leopard. All of them are supported by Lion.

iMacDragon
Jun 10, 2011, 02:36 AM
You are "wondering what's up with that"? Just ask yourself what you have forgotten. I mean this is ridiculous, every time someone says "UK price should be much less" and every time someone tells them "you forgot to add...". Well, figure it out yourself.

No, I've not forgotten anything. as I noted, I'm referring how the app store pricing works, it's been very much in UK's favour for last couple of years. On app store/ mac app store $0.99 = £0.59, with slight variance as you go up the scale, and on that scale, $29.99 = £17.99. this is why £20.99 is not right.

Yes, by any other apple pricing other than app stores, I'd expect £25 as the comparitive price, but not on the app store, as things stand right now.

When the app store currency conversions were originally set, the price was set when £1=$2, so even including VAT £0.59 was equivalent to $0.99. this rate has not been changed on app stores since, so I'm wondering are they planning to suddenly change it to our detriment. Remember, the pricing can't be set per region without submitting separate apps for each region, it's set to a $price, and everything is based off of that.

KnightWRX
Jun 10, 2011, 04:18 AM
No, I've not forgotten anything. as I noted, I'm referring how the app store pricing works, it's been very much in UK's favour for last couple of years. On app store/ mac app store $0.99 = £0.59, with slight variance as you go up the scale, and on that scale, $29.99 = £17.99. this is why £20.99 is not right.

VAT UK people, VAT.

$29.99 does not include sales tax. Then your country seems to suffer from an additional "import fee".

OllyW
Jun 10, 2011, 04:23 AM
VAT UK people, VAT.

$29.99 does not include sales tax. Then your country seems to suffer from an additional "import fee".

He's comparing the like for like prices of software already in the MAS and iOS app store. They already include VAT.

farleysmaster
Jun 10, 2011, 04:50 AM
Perhaps it costs Apple £3 a copy (Inc. VAT) to put all the spellings into British English... (doesn't explain why the Canadians get such a good deal...)

iMacDragon
Jun 10, 2011, 05:23 AM
He's comparing the like for like prices of software already in the MAS and iOS app store. They already include VAT.

Thankyou for getting my point, the app stores are just an odd case where currently even with vat included the prices are cheaper due to when the price ratios were fixed by apple, and their quoted lion price does not fit existing data.

KnightWRX
Jun 10, 2011, 05:33 AM
He's comparing the like for like prices of software already in the MAS and iOS app store. They already include VAT.

Yes, I know. The US does not includes sales tax. You can't compare price for price. That's the whole point. His exercise is flawed.

Anyway, you all know Apple throws in an extra added UK tax in everything they do, on top of the VAT, on top of the exchange.

OllyW
Jun 10, 2011, 05:43 AM
Yes, I know. The US does not includes sales tax. You can't compare price for price. That's the whole point. His exercise is flawed.

Anyway, you all know Apple throws in an extra added UK tax in everything they do, on top of the VAT, on top of the exchange.

Blimey mate, you are usually a bit quicker than this. It's nothing to do with taxes, he's comparing app store like for like prices.

Here are some examples from the US and UK MAS

Aperture - $79.99 / £44.99 ($1 = £0.56)
iWork apps - $19.99 / £11.99 ($1 = £0.60)
iLife apps - $14.99 / £8.99 ($1 = £0.60)

If we expect the same rate of Dollar to the Pound as the rest of the MAS then the $29.99 Lion would cost £17.99 ($1 = £0.60) instead of the £20.99 ($1 = £0.70) they are actually going to charge.

Hope this clears it up. :)

KnightWRX
Jun 10, 2011, 05:48 AM
Blimey mate, you are usually a bit quicker than this. It's nothing to do with taxes, he's comparing app store like for like prices.

Here are some examples from the US and UK MAS

Aperture - $79.99 / £44.99 ($1 = £0.56)
iWork apps - $19.99 / £11.99 ($1 = £0.60)
iLife apps - $14.99 / £8.99 ($1 = £0.60)

If we expect the same rate of Dollar to the Pound as the rest of the MAS then the $29.99 Lion would cost £17.99 ($1 = £0.60) instead of the £20.99 ($1 = £0.70) they are actually going to charge.

Hope this clears it up. :)

Ok, now that is a much clearer explanation of what he was trying to do. Of course, it's still flawed considering there's nothing logical behind Apple's UK pricing (:p) and trying to apply such logic to it is only an exercise in futility but I do get his point now.

(Remember, it's like 6 a.m here... so I'm not quite up to speed yet).

OllyW
Jun 10, 2011, 05:54 AM
Ok, now that is a much clearer explanation of what he was trying to do. Of course, it's still flawed considering there's nothing logical behind Apple's UK pricing (:p) and trying to apply such logic to it is only an exercise in futility but I do get his point now.

(Remember, it's like 6 a.m here... so I'm not quite up to speed yet).

You're right, it's usually think of a number and add a bit for luck when it comes to our pricing (yes, I'm looking at you ATV 2). ;)

goughbradley
Jun 10, 2011, 10:35 AM
Perhaps it costs Apple £3 a copy (Inc. VAT) to put all the spellings into British English... (doesn't explain why the Canadians get such a good deal...)

The $29 CAD price doesn't include our sales tax.

JAT
Jun 10, 2011, 11:10 AM
*****, anything under $150 is ridiculously low for a major OS upgrade for multiple computers. You guys must not have much to argue about today. 18 vs 20 pounds. There must be people at M$ saying, "they did WHAT?!"

iMacDragon
Jun 10, 2011, 12:09 PM
*****, anything under $150 is ridiculously low for a major OS upgrade for multiple computers. You guys must not have much to argue about today. 18 vs 20 pounds. There must be people at M$ saying, "they did WHAT?!"

I'm not complaining about the price perse, more the fact that I'm worried it might mean /all/ appstore prices are due to increase in the UK.

farleysmaster
Jun 10, 2011, 12:15 PM
The $29 CAD price doesn't include our sales tax.

Isn't Sales Tax included on the Mac App Store in US/Canada?

iMacDragon
Jun 10, 2011, 12:15 PM
Isn't Sales Tax included on the Mac App Store in US/Canada?

I don't think ANY US prices include sales tax, anywhere. because it varies so much, or sometimes isn't charged, etc.

dukebound85
Jun 10, 2011, 12:16 PM
Isn't Sales Tax included on the Mac App Store in US/Canada?

Nope, they add it to the app price

farleysmaster
Jun 10, 2011, 12:18 PM
I don't think ANY US prices include sales tax, anywhere. because it varies so much, or sometimes isn't charged, etc.

So if you're using the app store, you click the button that says 99 cents, next to an app, and then it applies Federal and State/provincial tax depending on where you are? Wow it's simpler here...

dukebound85
Jun 10, 2011, 12:19 PM
So if you're using the app store, you click the button that says 99 cents, next to an app, and then it applies Federal and State/provincial tax depending on where you are? Wow it's simpler here...

Pretty much. The invoice lists the app price, then the tax, then the total

farleysmaster
Jun 10, 2011, 12:20 PM
Pretty much. The invoice lists the app price, then the tax, then the total

I knew there was a reason I nationalised here!

ftaok
Jun 10, 2011, 12:32 PM
I knew there was a reason I nationalised here!

Yeah, until you realize that most US State Sales tax rates are about 7-8%. But we have our own issues here too.

ten-oak-druid
Jun 10, 2011, 12:52 PM
It's included in pricing, not added on top like in US. And EG pixelmator is on sale currently for $30 on MAS, which in uk translates to £18, same should apply to Lion.


The app store pricing conversion was set when pound was somewhere near $2, and thus is nicely favourable to UK currently.

The only reason we still have the penny in the US is because sales tax is "added on". Without the sales tax added on everything would be priced on whole dollar amounts or increments of 5 cents at the smallest.

The only exception being purchase of bulk goods like gasoline or flour. But that's not a problem. It would be priced per dollar and rounded to the nearest 5 cent increment. The difference in quantity of 4 cents worth of gas or even sun flower seeds is very small.

Eddyisgreat
Jun 10, 2011, 01:04 PM
*****, anything under $150 is ridiculously low for a major OS upgrade for multiple computers. You guys must not have much to argue about today. 18 vs 20 pounds. There must be people at M$ saying, "they did WHAT?!"

M$ is a software shop. Apple is a hardware shop that makes software.

farleysmaster
Jun 10, 2011, 07:29 PM
Yeah, until you realize that most US State Sales tax rates are about 7-8%. But we have our own issues here too.
Oh it's not the cost that that bothers me, it's the remembering to add 15% in your head...

Atlantico
Jun 11, 2011, 08:04 AM
The USD has been falling quite considerably since the release of SL, by more or less 20% compared to other major currencies.

Well that explains that mystery. Apple isn't "slashing" or even decreasing any prices, they're just using USD.

caspersoong
Jun 11, 2011, 09:30 AM
Wondering about the file size.

KnightWRX
Jun 11, 2011, 09:33 AM
Wondering about the file size.

Why ? Didn't you watch the keynote ?

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2011/06/stevejobswwdc2011liveblogkeynote0551.jpg