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MacRumors
Jun 9, 2011, 03:09 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/09/ios-5-opens-door-to-true-1080p-apple-tv/)


iOS 5 appears to unlock new 1080p capabilities for the iPad 2, allowing video in the 1080p format to be synced and played directly on the device. While the iPad 2 is of course unable to directly display full 1080p content on its own screen, many users are interested in outputting such content to larger screens, and it also opens the door to a true 1080p Apple TV.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/06/2010_apple_tv.jpg


Yesterday, 9to5Mac (http://www.9to5mac.com/71325/apple-to-finally-deliver-1080p-video-playback-on-ios-devices-with-ios-5/) reported that under iOS 5, Apple's video player will now play back and sync 1080p content. Cult of Mac now speculates (http://www.cultofmac.com/ios-5-beta-hints-at-1080p-iphone-4s-and-apple-tv-3/) on that development to suggest that Apple is preparing to support 1080p output on the next-generation iPhone and Apple TV, devices that will presumably be based on the A5 chip found in the iPad 2.What's interesting to us about this feature is that it implies that Apple is happy enough with the processing speeds of its A5 chip that they are going to enable 1080p video on devices with an A5 minimum spec. For right now, that's just the iPad 2, but come iOS 5's release in September, two other devices will fit the bill: the iPhone 4S and the next Apple TV.The current Apple TV, which is based on the same A4 chip found in the iPhone 4, is only capable of outputting 720p video, leaving some consumers hoping for more on a device that should be dedicated to a high-quality television viewing experience. The original rumor (http://www.macrumors.com/2010/05/28/apple-reportedly-prepping-revamped-apple-tv-iphone-os-cloud-based-storage-99-price-point/) regarding the second-generation Apple TV as an A4-based streaming device had pegged it as supporting 1080p and with 16 GB of storage. The released product does not, however, support the higher-resolution content and comes with only 8 GB of storage for the operating system and content caching.

Apple's iOS devices have supported 1080p output in some form for several generations, with the iPad 2 currently able to generate 1080p graphics and output at that resolution to external displays. The device can not, however, officially support 1080p video files under the iOS 4.x software. Other users have been able to demonstrate 1080p video output on the iPhone 4 (http://blog.gsmarena.com/iphone-4-now-plays-1080p-videos-easily-does-some-xviddivx-magic-too/) and even the iPhone 3GS (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/08/20/iphone-3gs-capable-of-high-definition-video-playback/), but the high-resolution content has not been supported through iTunes and the iOS devices' built-in video player from Apple.

Article Link: iOS 5 Opens Door to True 1080p Apple TV (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/09/ios-5-opens-door-to-true-1080p-apple-tv/)



palmerc2
Jun 9, 2011, 03:14 PM
Awesome! Looking forward to September

DCstewieG
Jun 9, 2011, 03:15 PM
And hopefully an App Store, I want a legitimate 1080p playing Plex client!!

rti92391
Jun 9, 2011, 03:16 PM
I just wish the iPad mirroring was available on the first generation iPad. The Apple TV is great with 720p....don't think it will be worth upgrading every year like the iPhone or iPad

Cougarcat
Jun 9, 2011, 03:16 PM
If true, Apple will definitely sell a lot more AppleTVs come September.

42streetsdown
Jun 9, 2011, 03:17 PM
i don't get the obsession with HD TVs and such. my monitor had higher resolution back in 2004

Northgrove
Jun 9, 2011, 03:17 PM
Sounds great! All these news are coming together perfectly for my forthcoming iPad. :D

WannaGoMac
Jun 9, 2011, 03:19 PM
I just wish the iPad mirroring was available on the first generation iPad. The Apple TV is great with 720p....don't think it will be worth upgrading every year like the iPhone or iPad

Jailbreak it and mirroring works great.

afireintonto
Jun 9, 2011, 03:20 PM
would anyone that actually has the tv 2 go out and buy the tv3, just because it offers slightly better picture?

Small White Car
Jun 9, 2011, 03:21 PM
Hurry it up.

I've been having to create duplicate copies of all my home movies for years now. I'd love to be able to ditch all the 720p versions I've had to make to watch through my Apple TV.

dagamer34
Jun 9, 2011, 03:21 PM
would anyone that actually has the tv 2 go out and buy the tv3, just because it offers slightly better picture?

You could stick it in a kids room with a 720p HDTV and get the 1080p version for the den.

I'd just love it when it's jailbroken to I can play 1080p Blu-ray rips.

jayducharme
Jun 9, 2011, 03:21 PM
If true, Apple will definitely sell a lot more AppleTVs come September.

And count me as one of the buyers. The difference between the output to my TV of the new iPad and my iPhone 4 is quite noticeable. I assume I'll have to re-download the videos I have to get them in 1080p form. Unless Apple has a miraculous new codec in the works, those would be pretty huge downloads.

PeterQVenkman
Jun 9, 2011, 03:25 PM
I just wish the iPad mirroring was available on the first generation iPad. The Apple TV is great with 720p....don't think it will be worth upgrading every year like the iPhone or iPad

For how cheap Apple TV is now, it's a lot easier to take the upgrade price than an iPhone or iPad!

SPUY767
Jun 9, 2011, 03:26 PM
i don't get the obsession with HD TVs and such. my monitor had higher resolution back in 2004

Stolen from XKCD.

http://xkcd.com/732/

Mattsasa
Jun 9, 2011, 03:27 PM
would anyone that actually has the tv 2 go out and buy the tv3, just because it offers slightly better picture?

me

chrmjenkins
Jun 9, 2011, 03:27 PM
I don't consider apple serious about 1080p until they actually start offering it in their own itunes store.

Yvan256
Jun 9, 2011, 03:28 PM
All I want is Mail, Safari, iTunes along with Bluetooth support for keyboard+trackpad.

Instant 99$ living room Mac. :D

Not enough on-board storage, you say? iCloud.

Mattsasa
Jun 9, 2011, 03:28 PM
i don't get the obsession with HD TVs and such. my monitor had higher resolution back in 2004

too watch on the couch with other people, it is a more intimate setting

jonnysods
Jun 9, 2011, 03:29 PM
Exciting! At $99 to upgrade, it's a no brainer.

fpnc
Jun 9, 2011, 03:30 PM
And before someone asks, NO the current Apple TV (v2) will probably never support output (i.e. playback) of 1080p content. Same for the iPhone 4 and the original iPad (v1). This is most likely a technical limitation, not some conspiracy by Apple to artificially limit playback to 720p in order to get you to upgrade to the newest products.

Furthermore, even though the original iPad, the iPhone 4, and the current Apple TV CAN decode some 1080p content it has been reported that the playback of such content is not without flaws.

In fact, I'd be overjoyed even if the ATV2 supported scaled playback of 720p content so that you could output at 1080i/1080p (some of the older HD-ready TVs do not support 720p30 playback). The original Apple TV allowed those output resolutions even though it could only decode 720p24 content.

paradox00
Jun 9, 2011, 03:31 PM
would anyone that actually has the tv 2 go out and buy the tv3, just because it offers slightly better picture?

I bought the atv2 knowing that I'd have no second thoughts about upgrading the next year because it's only $100. That said, I'm not sure 1080p alone would be enough incentive to do so. I'll have to see what else it brings. I'm still hoping for apps on Apple TV, but AirPlay mirroring is a pretty good alternative.

newagemac
Jun 9, 2011, 03:31 PM
You could stick it in a kids room with a 720p HDTV and get the 1080p version for the den.

I'd just love it when it's jailbroken to I can play 1080p Blu-ray rips.

It doesn't need to be jailbroken to play Blu Ray rips.

ratzzo
Jun 9, 2011, 03:32 PM
All good progress.. though most of the time I couldn't tell a 720p from a 1080.. yes, my sight is that bad :(

Small White Car
Jun 9, 2011, 03:32 PM
Stolen from XKCD.

http://xkcd.com/732/

What that really shows is the absurdity of focusing on resolution as a meaningful statistic.

So in a way that comic comes full circle to make fun of itself. If the point is that resolution doesn't matter that much, then the point of view of the comic (that people who like HDTVs are silly) is proven to be a silly point in and of itself.

So is XKCD making fun of itself? Frankly, I find the whole thing too confusing to figure out.

macduke
Jun 9, 2011, 03:33 PM
Lack of 1080p is the reason I don't have an Apple TV. I decided to wait until version 3, and now that I purchased an iPad 2 the other day, I'm looking forward to the new model even more. The ability to AirPlay and video mirror to my LG setup sounds great! iCloud on Apple TV is going to be equally fantastic. Will we even really need AirPlay most of the time? Our photos and videos will just show up on the AppleTV without any action on our part. Now that's slick.

rti92391
Jun 9, 2011, 03:33 PM
Jailbreak it and mirroring works great.

Jailbreak the iPad or Apple TV?

rti92391
Jun 9, 2011, 03:34 PM
would anyone that actually has the tv 2 go out and buy the tv3, just because it offers slightly better picture?

Doubtful

newagemac
Jun 9, 2011, 03:34 PM
The Airplay mirroring to the Apple TV is an excellent feature. Combined with 1080p output would be awesome. Wait, doesn't the iPad 2 already output 1080p with the HDMI cable?

emaja
Jun 9, 2011, 03:36 PM
Cool!

Bummer is now if I want to go 1080P I will have to re-encode my collection. I am happy with the balance of convenience and resolution of the current ATV, but as someone with borderline obsessive compulsive tendencies, I will do it anyway - LOL!

I'll just have to figure out a way to do 720P to the kids' TV since it does not do 1080P. I suppose I'll have to have theirs linked to their iMac with the 720P stuff on it where the living room TV will be linked to my MBP with the 1080P encodes.

gkarris
Jun 9, 2011, 03:38 PM
All I want is Mail, Safari, iTunes along with Bluetooth support for keyboard+trackpad.

Instant 99$ living room Mac. :D

Not enough on-board storage, you say? iCloud.

I was thinking of this too - but it will have a hard drive, BT, more USB ports and be the new Mac Nano - $249 (old AppleTV pricing)... :eek:

New A5 based AppleTV same as now just $99...

brianus
Jun 9, 2011, 03:42 PM
Technical question -- if you've synced 1080p content, how does it show up in iTunes? I used to sync the same movie in 480p to my old 1st-gen iPhone and in 720p to my 1st-gen Apple TV. In iTunes they show up as a single movie, labeled "HD-SD", but it's really two files and iTunes uses the capabilities of the device to determine which version to sync. Similarly, I imagine I'd be syncing the 720p version to my iPhone 4, and streaming the 1080p to a hypothetical new Apple TV (or double-resolution iPad 3). So does iTunes have a way to distinguish between the two HD formats as it currently does for 480 and 720?

tarproductions
Jun 9, 2011, 03:47 PM
Wonder if iTunes Match will include movies/TV shows + other visual media content available on iTunes. Would be sweet to be able to upgrade all your SD and/or 720p content to 1080p!

colinmack
Jun 9, 2011, 03:48 PM
would anyone that actually has the tv 2 go out and buy the tv3, just because it offers slightly better picture?

happily.

Mackan
Jun 9, 2011, 03:49 PM
When Apple TV only supported 720p, everyone said who needs 1080p. I saw this coming. They just saved 1080p for the next revision. Simple Apple logic to milk money, really. They do this with all revisions. For example, iPad 3 will have a better camera next time, one that is usable.

jmnikricket
Jun 9, 2011, 03:50 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

From a technology standpoint, I completely agree. From a functionality standpoint, trying to squeeze 10 guys around even a 27" monitor versus a 72" TV makes for vastly different experiences ;)

Bokito
Jun 9, 2011, 03:52 PM
With iTunes Home Sharing it's already possible to get 1080p playback on the iPhone 4 without frame drops. Only problem is that the buffer is too small to be actually useable in most cases.

Thunderhawks
Jun 9, 2011, 03:53 PM
would anyone that actually has the tv 2 go out and buy the tv3, just because it offers slightly better picture?

At $ 99 yes!

Sell the other one for $ 50 and it cost you $ 49

Yvan256
Jun 9, 2011, 03:55 PM
I was thinking of this too - but it will have a hard drive, BT, more USB ports and be the new Mac Nano - $249 (old AppleTV pricing)... :eek:

New A5 based AppleTV same as now just $99...

All those features would mean two different products. And at 249$, it's 2.5 times as expensive for nothing.

They can enable hard drive support for the built-in USB port. Otherwise it already has 8 GiB of flash storage, maybe the next version will have 16 GiB. Keyboard and trackpad is supported via Blutooth (I think the chip inside the :apple:TV supports Blutooth).

The goal is to keep is low-cost. All Apple needs to do is a new integrated keyboard+trackpad all-in-one, but that's only a matter of making a new aluminium shell for the components of both units.

At 249$, people will start looking at a netbook instead. At 99$, there's basically no competition whatsoever.

HobeSoundDarryl
Jun 9, 2011, 03:55 PM
would anyone that actually has the tv 2 go out and buy the tv3, just because it offers slightly better picture?

would anyone go out and buy a next iPad because it has twice the pixels packed into the same physical space?

HobeSoundDarryl
Jun 9, 2011, 03:58 PM
I don't consider apple serious about 1080p until they actually start offering it in their own itunes store.

Get enough 1080p capable :apple:TV units in homes and some studio will be tempted to try a 1080p version of something in the iTunes store. If that's profitable, others will quickly follow. The problem now is that if EVERY studio wanted to test 1080p content rentals for :apple:TV right now, it would be doomed to failure since none of the established :apple:TV hardware can play it.

Soon after it's possible to make money, some studio will choose to try to make that money.

HobeSoundDarryl
Jun 9, 2011, 04:00 PM
It doesn't need to be jailbroken to play Blu Ray rips.

I think he means at full 1080p. The original can play BD rips too if the file is scaled down to it's max output (or less) capabilities.

PaulieORF
Jun 9, 2011, 04:06 PM
Slightly off-topic, but every time I read an article or quote that refers to the forthcoming iPhone as the "iPhone 4S", I cringe. I seriously hope Apple doesn't call it that. It's just silly, even if it is only a minor bump in specs and features, please just call it iPhone 5. Doesn't bother too much though, as I would buy it even if it were called the "iPhone Abortion".

Lesser Evets
Jun 9, 2011, 04:07 PM
If this is true and the ATV, iPod Touch, and iPhone all come out in September with A5 chips and 1080 capability, the iPad will look chumpy. It would make sense to upgrade the iPad in September as well with A5 and any small improvements they can muster. iPad should always be cutting edge of their tech along with iPhone, since consumers are craving the devices at this time.

iScott428
Jun 9, 2011, 04:08 PM
i don't get the obsession with HD TVs and such. my monitor had higher resolution back in 2004

Yeah but your monitor is not running at 600hz like my 50" samsung plasma, nor are the black levels as good.

Defiantly gonna through the ATV2 on a 720p plasma somewhere else in my house and get that new ATV3 for the living room. Seriously 99$ is way too good of a deal for ATV, I will upgrade every year...

HMFIC03
Jun 9, 2011, 04:08 PM
would anyone that actually has the tv 2 go out and buy the tv3, just because it offers slightly better picture?

I would if it has a router built in with a USB jack for external hard drives. Then I would sell my previous router to pay for it.

Pumpkin King
Jun 9, 2011, 04:09 PM
The only only things I want (and they're such simple requests) are:

1. An App store

2. Expand the supported codecs and allow me to pair the ATV to a NAS so I don't need to have a computer on and running iTunes just to see my library.

I don't even care about resolution!

djepsilon
Jun 9, 2011, 04:09 PM
Technical question -- if you've synced 1080p content, how does it show up in iTunes? I used to sync the same movie in 480p to my old 1st-gen iPhone and in 720p to my 1st-gen Apple TV. In iTunes they show up as a single movie, labeled "HD-SD", but it's really two files and iTunes uses the capabilities of the device to determine which version to sync. Similarly, I imagine I'd be syncing the 720p version to my iPhone 4, and streaming the 1080p to a hypothetical new Apple TV (or double-resolution iPad 3). So does iTunes have a way to distinguish between the two HD formats as it currently does for 480 and 720?

Currently no, iTunes will not tell you the difference between 720 and 1080 movies since they are both considered High Definition formats in the first place. Apple could maybe add it in the form of an iTunes update but I doubt they ever would. You will likely be stuck with having two versions of the same video.

HobeSoundDarryl
Jun 9, 2011, 04:10 PM
Wonder if iTunes Match will include movies/TV shows + other visual media content available on iTunes. Would be sweet to be able to upgrade all your SD and/or 720p content to 1080p!

Especially for those that sell bandwidth by the GB.:D

WannaGoMac
Jun 9, 2011, 04:12 PM
Jailbreak the iPad or Apple TV?

If you want to mirror an ipad to a TV/Monitor, just jailbreak the ipad.

GQB
Jun 9, 2011, 04:12 PM
i don't get the obsession with HD TVs and such. my monitor had higher resolution back in 2004

Its simply guys who are obsessed with size, in this case bigger numbers.
Hopefully they will now shrivel away.

gkarris
Jun 9, 2011, 04:17 PM
All those features would mean two different products. And at 249$, it's 2.5 times as expensive for nothing.

They can enable hard drive support for the built-in USB port. Otherwise it already has 8 GiB of flash storage, maybe the next version will have 16 GiB. Keyboard and trackpad is supported via Blutooth (I think the chip inside the :apple:TV supports Blutooth).

The goal is to keep is low-cost. All Apple needs to do is a new integrated keyboard+trackpad all-in-one, but that's only a matter of making a new aluminium shell for the components of both units.

At 249$, people will start looking at a netbook instead. At 99$, there's basically no competition whatsoever.

Not really, cheap desktop, competing against other Intel Atom-Based Nano Computers running Windows....

Consultant
Jun 9, 2011, 04:17 PM
Would definitely buy it! Make it so!

dhemmer
Jun 9, 2011, 04:18 PM
Now if they can just get Netflix to play without the continued buffering issue they would have an awesome product. I can play Netflix on every other Aplle device with no buffering. ATV2 sputters at lower bandwidth. I would rather have 720p and Netflix fixed.:(

scottparker999
Jun 9, 2011, 04:21 PM
Lack of 1080p is the reason I don't have an Apple TV. I decided to wait until version 3, and now that I purchased an iPad 2 the other day, I'm looking forward to the new model even more. The ability to AirPlay and video mirror to my LG setup sounds great! iCloud on Apple TV is going to be equally fantastic. Will we even really need AirPlay most of the time? Our photos and videos will just show up on the AppleTV without any action on our part. Now that's slick.

For itunes purchased content, yes. Beyond that, the pricing associated with expanding the 5GB iCloud limit might be a sticking point.

redkamel
Jun 9, 2011, 04:26 PM
i don't get the obsession with HD TVs and such. my monitor had higher resolution back in 2004

Your 2004 monitor was 42 inches?

HobeSoundDarryl
Jun 9, 2011, 04:28 PM
Here's the big 4 as I'd love to see them:

1080p- a full on BD quality match without compromise, meaning don't eek out 1080p so you can just barely claim it. Make it capable of matching 1080p in the various formats up to 60p as well as in Mbps. Give us (finally) a true head-to-head alternative to the "bag of hurt".
App Store with enough flexibility so that third parties can deliver on the various wants that Apple chooses not to deliver themselves.
"Normalize" the USB port (maybe add another?) so that those desiring local storage of size can attach whatever they want and companies like Elgato could attach one of their devices + app to extend functionality for those seeking DVR-like capabilities
Borrow from the last gen :apple:TV navigation to bring back some of the nicer presentation of menu options for our own content, rather than pushing it all into the "Computer" menu. IMO, it was better to have the dedicated menus in the previous gen, with the entries in each menu for "My movies", "My TV shows", etc.


Personally, I'd also like to see an analog audio out for the many receivers that have "Zone 2" options that only work with an analog feed.

I assume all navigational features will be much more "snappy", even for long lists of content.

Apple, could you please add support for 5.1 audio from consumer camcorders? Been shooting with that in relatively cheap consumer camcorders for years and years and still have to jump through too many hoops to try to turn it into a file for :apple:TV. Note the device can already handle 5.1 but it would be nice if iMovie or FCE would make it a breeze to turn AVC HD 5.1 into 5.1 AC-3 audio in the Quicktime render.

It would also be nice to finally get maybe an "expert" menu which includes a NAS option so that network storage could feed the device instead of having to leave the computer on. With the recent "cut the cord" presentation for iCloud, I think there might finally be some hope for the same with the next gen.

I still own the first gen version (as the second gen's only slightly better 720p max spec + Netflix didn't do it for me). But I'd buy a 1080p version- even for more than $99- in a second (even if the rest of what's listed above didn't show).

juicedropsdeuce
Jun 9, 2011, 04:33 PM
Is that Jobs in that picture? Woah...

shaynes
Jun 9, 2011, 04:34 PM
Slightly off-topic, but every time I read an article or quote that refers to the forthcoming iPhone as the "iPhone 4S", I cringe. I seriously hope Apple doesn't call it that. It's just silly, even if it is only a minor bump in specs and features, please just call it iPhone 5. Doesn't bother too much though, as I would buy it even if it were called the "iPhone Abortion".

Agreed, I cringe as well. To anyone who actually thinks about it, this is obvious. There is no way it will be iPhone 4S, because then what comes after that? iPhone 6, just skipping 5? Not happening.

The only reason it was called iPhone 3GS is because going from "3G" to "3" would have been confusing.

gugy
Jun 9, 2011, 04:36 PM
Here's the big 4 as I'd love to see them:

1080p- a full on BD quality match without compromise, meaning don't eek out 1080p so you can just barely claim it. Make it capable of matching 1080p in the various formats up to 60p as well as in Mbps. Give us (finally) a true head-to-head alternative to the "bag of hurt".
App Store with enough flexibility so that third parties can deliver on the various wants that Apple chooses not to deliver themselves.
"Normalize" the USB port (maybe add another?) so that those desiring local storage of size can attach whatever they want and companies like Elgato could attach one of their devices + app to extend functionality for those seeking DVR-like capabilities
Borrow from the last gen :apple:TV navigation to bring back some of the nicer presentation of menu options for our own content, rather than pushing it all into the "Computer" menu. IMO, it was better to have the dedicated menus in the previous gen, with the entries in each menu for "My movies", "My TV shows", etc.


Personally, I'd also like to see an analog audio out for the many receivers that have "Zone 2" options that only work with an analog feed.

I assume all navigational features will be much more "snappy", even for long lists of content.

Apple, could you please add support for 5.1 audio from consumer camcorders? Been shooting with that in relatively cheap consumer camcorders for years and years and still have to jump through too many hoops to try to turn it into a file for :apple:TV

I still own the first gen version (as the second gen's only slightly better 720p max spec + Netflix) didn't do it for me. But I'd buy a 1080p version- even for more than $99- in a second (even if the rest of what's listed above didn't show).

yep those are nice requests.
For me #3 is huge. I hate to turn my MacPro on to watch or listen something from my iTunes library. If there is a way to hook up an external drive with all my content and leave my Mac off I will be all over it.

App store would be sweet too. I would love to drop my cable and start seeing a la carte channels on the app store and purchase their programing separately. The issue here is there must be a HUGE pressure from cable providers to avoid this to happen. That's a hurdle Apple probably will not be able to overcome anytime soon.

FarmerP2011
Jun 9, 2011, 04:37 PM
Whilst it might have 1080p, i get the feeling that you'll also get facetime.

Be interesting to see what they come out with come September. It's been a busy year so far.

Yvan256
Jun 9, 2011, 04:38 PM
Not really, cheap desktop, competing against other Intel Atom-Based Nano Computers running Windows....

If you read my last sentence, you'd see that was exactly my point... at 99$, there's no competition whatsoever. Why spend 249$ on a computer stuck in the living room when you can get a portable computer for the same price?

And if it's only a software/firmware update, then it means two things: no development cost/no need to build new hardware and it's already for sale everywhere.

HobeSoundDarryl
Jun 9, 2011, 04:41 PM
App store would be sweet too. I would love to drop my cable and start seeing a la carte channels on the app store and purchase their programing separately. The issue here is there must be a HUGE pressure from cable providers to avoid this to happen. That's a hurdle Apple probably will not be able to overcome anytime soon.

But that's the beauty of #3. Apple wouldn't be building that in; somebody like Elgato would bring that feature as an optional add on.

BLACKFRIDAY
Jun 9, 2011, 04:42 PM
When Apple TV only supported 720p, everyone said who needs 1080p. I saw this coming. They just saved 1080p for the next revision. Simple Apple logic to milk money, really. They do this with all revisions. For example, iPad 3 will have a better camera next time, one that is usable.

I do agree on some points but how do you have to spend more money to get 1080p? iPhone 3GS/iPhone 4, iPad1/2, all support 1080p now. How is apple milking money in that case?

mdelvecchio
Jun 9, 2011, 04:43 PM
Now if they can just get Netflix to play without the continued buffering issue they would have an awesome product. I can play Netflix on every other Aplle device with no buffering. ATV2 sputters at lower bandwidth. I would rather have 720p and Netflix fixed.:(

i had a problem where HD netflix content would pause at ~11 seconds then drop to SD w/ poor compression. on the phone w/ netflix and cox cable, turned out it was my bandwidth. a replacement modem fixed it and i was back up to higher speeds and HD content in netflix w/o problems.

stockcerts
Jun 9, 2011, 04:43 PM
I just bought Apple TV yesterday. Is there a refresh coming soon that anyone is aware of? Thanks!

cadillac1234
Jun 9, 2011, 04:46 PM
I don't see much of difference between 720p and 1080p TBF so it's not really an issue for me.

I have a couple of years old 50" Panasonic Plasma so I can sort of see a difference but it's not worth the extra time, cost, storage and bandwidth requirements for me to bother with 1080p

fpnc
Jun 9, 2011, 04:49 PM
If this is true and the ATV, iPod Touch, and iPhone all come out in September with A5 chips and 1080 capability, the iPad will look chumpy. It would make sense to upgrade the iPad in September as well with A5 and any small improvements they can muster. iPad should always be cutting edge of their tech along with iPhone, since consumers are craving the devices at this time.
The iPad 2 is already using the A5 chip. In fact, it is the only Apple product that does which was made obvious in the article that you are posting under ("iOS 5 Opens Door to True 1080p Apple TV").

juicedropsdeuce
Jun 9, 2011, 04:52 PM
I just bought Apple TV yesterday. Is there a refresh coming soon that anyone is aware of? Thanks!

September.

dak013
Jun 9, 2011, 04:55 PM
Don't expect Apple to create a more complex Apple TV with external storage. I see them simplifying the UI and UX even further, mainly by cleaning up overlooked rough patches and changing the way you interact with the device. I see them doing something such as a Magic Trackpad for the new controller.
I do expect 1080p, but they won't make a big deal out of it.
They will stress most iCloud and how everything bought (not just rented) will be able to be synced to the Apple TV without storage.

Tech198
Jun 9, 2011, 04:56 PM
oh darn :p... i just bought an Apple TV.

And all my stuff is 720p.

Dan--
Jun 9, 2011, 05:01 PM
Yay, a new ATV coming. (Well, rumored)

Here's the big 4 as I'd love to see them:
1080p- a full on BD quality match without compromiseYes
App Store Yes!

"Normalize" the USB port (maybe add another?) so that those desiring local storage of size can attach whatever they want and companies like Elgato could attach one of their devices + app to extend functionality for those seeking DVR-like capabilities
WAY YES!!

Borrow from the last gen :apple:TV navigation to bring back some of the nicer presentation of menu options
Yes

a NAS option so that network storage could feed the device instead of having to leave the computer on.
YES!! Although a local storage option that is syncable may be suitable.

C'mon Apple! Please!

dhemmer
Jun 9, 2011, 05:02 PM
i had a problem where HD netflix content would pause at ~11 seconds then drop to SD w/ poor compression. on the phone w/ netflix and cox cable, turned out it was my bandwidth. a replacement modem fixed it and i was back up to higher speeds and HD content in netflix w/o problems.

Thanks, but it would be nice if Qwest had service faster than 1meg.

What ever apple does on all other devices would be nice if they could use the same code in ATV2. I can watch my ipod all day with netflix while my wife is gaming without any buffering. ATV2 is like watching someone with tourettes.

gugy
Jun 9, 2011, 05:04 PM
September.

How do you know this?
ATV is one of those products that have not update cycle established. While I would love to see an update on the hardware front by September, I just would not be surprise if that doesn't happen for quiet some time.

diamond.g
Jun 9, 2011, 05:06 PM
So will the Appletv 2 be the only device to stream from the iCloud?

jamesdmc
Jun 9, 2011, 05:09 PM
I just bought Apple TV yesterday.

oh darn :p... i just bought an Apple TV.

And all my stuff is 720p.

I just bought one on Sunday. A bit of an impulse buy really. Haven't opened it yet and really don't need it. I already have a mini running Plex for my (mostly) 1080p-encoded library. I bought it because I was thinking it'd be more "couch-friendly". But we've been getting by with mini/Plex for long enough that I think I'm gonna take it back and wait a few more months.

Is there a restocking fee at the Apple Store?

Bye Bye Baby
Jun 9, 2011, 05:11 PM
i don't get the obsession with HD TVs and such. my monitor had higher resolution back in 2004

And what did you watch on it?

SgtPepper12
Jun 9, 2011, 05:11 PM
Although I can't even tell the difference between 1080p and 720p on my TV at my usual watching distance the lack of 1080p is the reason why I was never really interested in this device. I know it sounds stupid but I just hate the feeling to watch a good movie knowing that I could watch it in a better way. I bought that TV to use its capabilities. It would be like buying a nice HiFi system and listen to crappy 256 AAC files instead of a real CD or FLAC.
Huh, seems to be an Apple thing.

dhemmer
Jun 9, 2011, 05:13 PM
I just bought one on Sunday. A bit of an impulse buy really. Haven't opened it yet and really don't need it. I already have a mini running Plex for my (mostly) 1080p-encoded library. I bought it because I was thinking it'd be more "couch-friendly". But we've been getting by with mini/Plex for long enough that I think I'm gonna take it back and wait a few more months.

Is there a restocking fee at the Apple Store?

I toke mine back yesterday after I found out how bad netflix was. It was opened and they took it right back. Full refund no restock fee and were very nice about it. You gotta love the retail stores! Best service in the world.

newagemac
Jun 9, 2011, 05:16 PM
Get enough 1080p capable :apple:TV units in homes and some studio will be tempted to try a 1080p version of something in the iTunes store. If that's profitable, others will quickly follow. The problem now is that if EVERY studio wanted to test 1080p content rentals for :apple:TV right now, it would be doomed to failure since none of the established :apple:TV hardware can play it.

Soon after it's possible to make money, some studio will choose to try to make that money.

We can't even get most of the movie studios to offer digital downloads at 720p when players that can handle it are readily available. What makes you think the hardware is what is holding the industry back? It should be pretty clear to you the fact that Blu Ray discs only offer 480p digital versions that hardware is not the problem here. And most aren't even offering that.

ten-oak-druid
Jun 9, 2011, 05:23 PM
I was watching Annie Hall the other day and wished it was in 1080p.

fpnc
Jun 9, 2011, 05:51 PM
...iPhone 3GS/iPhone 4, iPad1/2, all support 1080p now...
Except in the case of the iPad 2, that's debatable. For example, my six-year-old G4-based Mac mini can "play" 1080p content but it doesn't do it at all well which is mostly likely the case with all of the iOS products prior to the iPad 2 and Apple's A5 processor.

I have one of the original iPads (using the A4 processor) and while I can "play" 1080p content on that device it will randomly drop frames. I've done similar tests with the ATV2 and it also drops frames. Casual viewers might not notice these problems but from my experience they are present if you look close and try fairly demanding source videos.

The one thing we don't know is whether the A4 processor could be made to work given a restricted range of 1080p source encodings. What I mean is that maybe 1080p could be made to work (flawlessly) on these earlier devices if you kept the encoding settings within a fairly limited range of values. But, perhaps Apple has determined that given those limitations 1080p support on those earlier devices might not be sustainable (i.e. too many limitations on the encoding quality and workflow to produce that content).

It has been reported that a similar situation existed with the original Tegra 2 processor from NVIDIA. Boxee was planning on using that processor in the Boxee Box but even though that processor claimed 1080p support Boxee found that it just couldn't do high-bit-rate (quality) 1080p so they were forced to switch to an Intel-based system-on-a-chip (or SoC, the Intel CE4100). Interestingly enough, the graphic processor in the current Boxee Box is based upon the same GPU found in the iPhone 4 (the Imagination Technologies PowerVR SGX535). However, Intel added a custom HD decoder to their CE4100 which leads me to believe that they knew that the SGX535 wasn't really able to provide robust 1080p support (at least, not given the requirements of the Boxee Box and potentially other consumer HD products that could be based on Intel's CE4100).

Here is a link to a story that goes into great detail about Boxee's switch from Tegra 2 to the Intel CE4100:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3912/boxee-box-the-inside-story/2

gkarris
Jun 9, 2011, 05:52 PM
If you read my last sentence, you'd see that was exactly my point... at 99$, there's no competition whatsoever. Why spend 249$ on a computer stuck in the living room when you can get a portable computer for the same price?

And if it's only a software/firmware update, then it means two things: no development cost/no need to build new hardware and it's already for sale everywhere.

Which computer does Apple sell for $249?

Some people want a desktop, not a portable. I'm not buying another Mac portable - going to use a desktop/iPad combo instead..

Tech198
Jun 9, 2011, 05:52 PM
I just bought one on Sunday. A bit of an impulse buy really. Haven't opened it yet and really don't need it. I already have a mini running Plex for my (mostly) 1080p-encoded library. I bought it because I was thinking it'd be more "couch-friendly". But we've been getting by with mini/Plex for long enough that I think I'm gonna take it back and wait a few more months.

Is there a restocking fee at the Apple Store?

I don't think so.

Same here.. "impulse buy"... but i might just return mine as i don't need it now, as as i bought mine yesterday. I have allot of work to do before i can view movies on it :| so i guess it didn't really make much sense anyway

HobeSoundDarryl
Jun 9, 2011, 05:58 PM
We can't even get most of the movie studios to offer digital downloads at 720p when players that can handle it are readily available. What makes you think the hardware is what is holding the industry back? It should be pretty clear to you the fact that Blu Ray discs only offer 480p digital versions that hardware is not the problem here. And most aren't even offering that.

My logic goes like this:

Don't ever put 1080p-capable :apple:TVs into homes and there will NEVER be 1080p content for :apple:TV in the iTunes store. Why? Impossible to play if the devices don't exist.
Populate lots of homes with 1080p-capable :apple:TVs and some studio will eventually be tempted to see if renting/selling 1080p can be profitable. If so, other "greedy" studios will quickly follow.


There is no chicken or egg issue here. The hardware must lead. At most, both hardware & software could hit at the same time. But the software (1080p rentals for this thing) can't come before there is hardware on which to play it.

Personally, I could care less if there is ever 1080p options in the iTunes store; I want it for the ability to playback 1080 HD home movies I've been shooting for about 6+ years now. iMovie will import & edit them and render them just fine. iTunes will accept them just like a 720p or less file, and play them just fine. I've had a 1080 HDTV in the living room for about 8-9+ years now. I just need the last link.

If you are happy with 720p (or less), it should be no issue for you either, as 1080p hardware will play 720p to the fullest. But it doesn't work the other way.

Furthermore, if there was ever 1080p options in the iTunes store, I would expect them to just be options, much like there are options for 720p and SD options now. All the gripes about file sizes, storage, "the chart", time-to-download, etc can be addressed by each individual doing whatever is best for themselves. Win:win:win (Apple sells more units, "720p is good enough" crowd can still enjoy their 720p at it's fullest, "1080p or bust" crowd can finally get what they want too).

AgentElliot007
Jun 9, 2011, 06:00 PM
When ATV2 was first announced, I scoffed at the lack of 1080P and didn't buy one right away. After all, it was 2010! I didn't see any logical reason not to support it. I still don't really.

However...

I somewhat impulsively bought one around Christmas when I hung up a new TV in a bedroom and just wanted something to play Netflix. I couldn't find a descent wifi Blu-Ray player in stock after the Christmas rush, so I thought, what the hell? Let's just try Apple TV at $99.

Now, I love it. It's practically all I use except on my 1080p projector setup in the home theater. That's the only place I use discs anymore. I have an HDMI cable and a power cord on every TV and I've just been moving the Apple TV around.

Long story short, I want more Apple TV's, and while I'm happy and thrilled with ATV2, I'm waiting to see if ATV3 (if it comes to exist at all this fall) does indeed support 1080P, at which point I'll buy 2-3 more, though I won't abandon my ATV2. It's still phenomenal. But I would definitely appreciate 1080P though on the 9 foot wide projection screen in the basement.

AgentElliot007
Jun 9, 2011, 06:04 PM
My logic goes like this:

Don't ever put 1080p-capable :apple:TVs into homes and there will NEVER be 1080p content for :apple:TV in the iTunes store. Why? Impossible to play if the devices don't exist.
Populate lots of homes with 1080p-capable :apple:TVs and some studio will eventually be tempted to see if renting/selling 1080p can be profitable. If so, other "greedy" studios will quickly follow.


Personally, I could care less if there is ever 1080p options in the iTunes store; I want it for the ability to playback 1080 HD home movies I've been shooting for about 6+ years now.

If you are happy with 720p (or less), it should be no issue for you either, as 1080p hardware will play 720p to the fullest. But it doesn't work the other way.

Furthermore, if there was ever 1080p options in the iTunes store, I would expect them to just be options, much like there are options for 720p and SD options now. All the gripes about file sizes, storage, "the chart", time-to-download, etc can be addressed by each individual doing whatever is best for themselves. Win:win:win (Apple sells more units, "720p is good enough" crowd can still enjoy their 720p at it's fullest, "1080p or bust" crowd can finally get what they want too).

For rental/streaming, I think 720P is fine. It doesn't look "bad" at all. At the same time though, like you, I'd love to have the ability to output 1080P video from the Apple TV. I have been ripping my entire DVD/Blu-Ray collection and I'd prefer to have 1080P Blu-Ray rips, simple as that. For everything else, 720P really doesn't bother me.

maclaptop
Jun 9, 2011, 06:04 PM
I don't consider apple serious about 1080p until they actually start offering it in their own itunes store.

I believe you've hit the nail on the head :)

Good Call!

kiljoy616
Jun 9, 2011, 06:05 PM
So even thought the iphone 4 and appletv 2 can be show to be able to output to 1080p hacked, apple will probably not enable it so that we have to buy new hardware. :(

Makes good business sense but a bit unethical personally, but then who cares about ethics when money is talking:rolleyes:

lazyrighteye
Jun 9, 2011, 06:05 PM
would anyone that actually has the tv 2 go out and buy the tv3, just because it offers slightly better picture?

1080 isn't enough for me to upgrade from my TV2. Especially considering Netflix streaming (720) represents ~80% of my TV2 usage, another ~15% is streaming my iTunes libraries while the remaining ~5% is Airplaying from my iPhone 3GS. I rented a movie from iTunes, once.

So this particular user would require other incentives to upgrade. And that's where Apple really shines: getting perfectly satisfied customers, like myself, to upgrade to something they didn't even know they needed until an announcement/demo. :D

AgentElliot007
Jun 9, 2011, 06:06 PM
Except in the case of the iPad 2, that's debatable. For example, my six-year-old G4-based Mac mini can "play" 1080p content but it doesn't do it at all well which is mostly likely the case with all of the iOS products prior to the iPad 2 and Apple's A5 processor.

I have one of the original iPads (using the A4 processor) and while I can "play" 1080p content on that device it will randomly drop frames. I've done similar tests with the ATV2 and it also drops frames. Casual viewers might not notice these problems but from my experience they are present if you look close and try fairly demanding source videos.

The one thing we don't know is whether the A4 processor could be made to work given a restricted range of 1080p source encodings. What I mean is that maybe 1080p could be made to work (flawlessly) on these earlier devices if you kept the encoding settings within a fairly limited range of values. But, perhaps Apple has determined that given those limitations 1080p support on those earlier devices might not be sustainable (i.e. too many limitations on the encoding quality and workflow to produce that content).

It has been reported that a similar situation existed with the original Tegra 2 processor from NVIDIA. Boxee was planning on using that processor in the Boxee Box but even though that processor claimed 1080p support Boxee found that it just couldn't do high-bit-rate (quality) 1080p so they were forced to switch to an Intel-based system-on-a-chip (or SoC, the Intel CE4100). Interestingly enough, the graphic processor in the current Boxee Box is based upon the same GPU found in the iPhone 4 (the Imagination Technologies PowerVR SGX535). However, Intel added a custom HD decoder to their CE4100 which leads me to believe that they knew that the SGX535 wasn't really able to provide robust 1080p support (at least, not given the requirements of the Boxee Box and potentially other consumer HD products that could be based on Intel's CE4100).

Here is a link to a story that goes into great detail about Boxee's switch from Tegra 2 to the Intel CE4100:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3912/boxee-box-the-inside-story/2

Part of me really wants a Boxee Box just to play Blu-Ray iso's. It's so tempting at times...

AgentElliot007
Jun 9, 2011, 06:08 PM
I toke mine back yesterday after I found out how bad netflix was. It was opened and they took it right back. Full refund no restock fee and were very nice about it. You gotta love the retail stores! Best service in the world.

How bad Netflix is? It works great on mine. Far better than anything else I've used for Netflix streaming, which is just about everything.

fpnc
Jun 9, 2011, 06:08 PM
I just bought Apple TV yesterday. Is there a refresh coming soon that anyone is aware of? Thanks!
September.
How do you know this?
ATV is one of those products that have not update cycle established. While I would love to see an update on the hardware front by September, I just would not be surprise if that doesn't happen for quiet some time.
I agree, we may not see an Apple TV 3 until well into 2012.

HobeSoundDarryl
Jun 9, 2011, 06:13 PM
How bad Netflix is? It works great on mine. Far better than anything else I've used for Netflix streaming, which is just about everything.

So much of good or bad Netflix is about the width of the pipes bringing it to individual homes.

juicedropsdeuce
Jun 9, 2011, 06:16 PM
I was watching Annie Hall the other day and wished it was in 1080p.

Ooohh. Are you a cool hipster? :rolleyes:

Zimmer62943
Jun 9, 2011, 06:17 PM
CMON, does anyone actually think its going to be called the iPhone 4S???? the 3GS got the S because it was quite a big boost, sure the new iphone will be but its expected and apple wont reuse a name that doesn't even sound right. its the 5th iPhone, it will be iPhone 5. What will you tossers come up with next? iPhone 4A5S?

German
Jun 9, 2011, 06:19 PM
Except in the case of the iPad 2, that's debatable. For example, my six-year-old G4-based Mac mini can "play" 1080p content but it doesn't do it at all well which is mostly likely the case with all of the iOS products prior to the iPad 2 and Apple's A5 processor.

I have one of the original iPads (using the A4 processor) and while I can "play" 1080p content on that device it will randomly drop frames. I've done similar tests with the ATV2 and it also drops frames. Casual viewers might not notice these problems but from my experience they are present if you look close and try fairly demanding source videos.

The one thing we don't know is whether the A4 processor could be made to work given a restricted range of 1080p source encodings. What I mean is that maybe 1080p could be made to work (flawlessly) on these earlier devices if you kept the encoding settings within a fairly limited range of values. But, perhaps Apple has determined that given those limitations 1080p support on those earlier devices might not be sustainable (i.e. too many limitations on the encoding quality and workflow to produce that content).

It has been reported that a similar situation existed with the original Tegra 2 processor from NVIDIA. Boxee was planning on using that processor in the Boxee Box but even though that processor claimed 1080p support Boxee found that it just couldn't do high-bit-rate (quality) 1080p so they were forced to switch to an Intel-based system-on-a-chip (or SoC, the Intel CE4100). Interestingly enough, the graphic processor in the current Boxee Box is based upon the same GPU found in the iPhone 4 (the Imagination Technologies PowerVR SGX535). However, Intel added a custom HD decoder to their CE4100 which leads me to believe that they knew that the SGX535 wasn't really able to provide robust 1080p support (at least, not given the requirements of the Boxee Box and potentially other consumer HD products that could be based on Intel's CE4100).

Here is a link to a story that goes into great detail about Boxee's switch from Tegra 2 to the Intel CE4100:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3912/boxee-box-the-inside-story/2

Apple A4 = ARM Cortex A8 + SGX 535 + VXD 375

The VXD 375 is the Video-Decoder.

fpnc
Jun 9, 2011, 06:22 PM
How bad Netflix is? It works great on mine. Far better than anything else I've used for Netflix streaming, which is just about everything.
Your mileage may vary. I've used an ATV2 on Cox cable with an advertised (and often measured) 8Mbps download rate and yet I've had intermittent problems with Netflix streaming. However, I have some reason to believe that the problems are because of Cox, not the ATV2.

On the other hand, Netflix seems to work pretty well on my AT&T 2.5Mbps DSL connection so obviously there are a complex set of interactions that determine whether Netflix will stream or not. On DSL I don't get HD content and thus it may be the HD streaming that is the real problem with the Cox cable/ATV2 setup.

Applepi
Jun 9, 2011, 06:23 PM
would anyone that actually has the tv 2 go out and buy the tv3, just because it offers slightly better picture?

nope.

Che Castro
Jun 9, 2011, 06:27 PM
Glad to see ATV2 getting some news

ten-oak-druid
Jun 9, 2011, 06:28 PM
Ooohh. Are you a cool hipster? :rolleyes:

LOL

I'm not going to watch Casablanca again either until I get my 1080p!

Seriously I appreciate good resolution, but when the resolution and digital affects of a movie become an important factor, I ask myself if I would enjoy the film in low resolution as well. If the thought of low resolution kills the film for me then the movie probably isn't good.

The good resolution is a bonus. We will al take it. But it is no substitute for a good story delivered by good directing and acting.

German
Jun 9, 2011, 06:31 PM
If you are happy with 720p (or less), it should be no issue for you either, as 1080p hardware will play 720p to the fullest. But it doesn't work the other way.


Resolution is not everything.
A good 720p video (high profile with Cabac and a good encoder, etc.) will look better than a very modest 1080p video.

The 720p video from the iTunes Store should not be taken as a reference. They have poor quality.
Apple makes absolutely no use many features such as Cabac. In addition, the H.264 Quicktime seems to be bad. Maybe "hazardous waste" compared to x264.

Take a BluRay with good quality and use Handbrake (x264) to make a 720p Video (HighProfile etc.). The quality will be much better than what Apple sells on the iTunes Store the people.

newagemac
Jun 9, 2011, 06:38 PM
Resolution is not everything.
A good 720p video (high profile with Cabac and a good encoder, etc.) will look better than a very modest 1080p video.

The 720p video from the iTunes Store should not be taken as a reference. They have poor quality.
Apple makes absolutely no use many features such as Cabac. In addition, the H.264 Quicktime encoder is really bad. Hazardous waste compared to x264.

Take a BluRay with good quality and use Handbrake (x264) to make a 720p Video (HighProfile etc.). The quality will be much better than what Apple sells on the iTunes Store the people.

You're quite wrong on this. First of all, Apple doesn't use Blu Ray as a source for its files. Blu Ray is a compression of the original. The movie studios don't hand Apple TV a Blu Ray, they give them a copy of the original recording which means Apple sends you a file that has only been compressed once. Blu Ray has already been compressed once and then when you compress it again with Handbrake you are compressing it a second time.

The quality of the iTunes Store 720p is usually better than for a similar file size from an 720p encoding you might do with Handbrake from a Blu Ray for those reasons. With that being said, they both produce outstanding quality.

HobeSoundDarryl
Jun 9, 2011, 06:38 PM
On the other hand, Netflix seems to work pretty well on my AT&T 2.5Mbps DSL connection so obviously there are a complex set of interactions that determine whether Netflix will stream or not. On DSL I don't get HD content and thus it may be the HD streaming that is the real problem with the Cox cable/ATV2 setup.

Something else I would add to the "expert" menu wishes: an option to set our own buffer space. If the system can't figure it out for us, it would be nice to go in and allocate a bigger buffer for streaming functions rather than having just one such choice chosen for us.

HobeSoundDarryl
Jun 9, 2011, 06:50 PM
Resolution is not everything.
A good 720p video (high profile with Cabac and a good encoder, etc.) will look better than a very modest 1080p video.

duh. What kind of comparison is that? I might suggest: a good 480p video (encoded well) will look better than a very modest[ly] encoded 720p video too. We could probably work that down to VCR quality video as long as the lower res one is encoded well and the higher res one gets poor encoding.

Those hungry for 1080p :apple:TV are never arguing for "modest encoding." The hunger is for delivering a picture to the max- about as good as their 1080p HDTV can show. If the "cost" of a 1080p :apple:TV version 3 would be that it has to involve poor quality encodes, what's the point?

Ideally, Apple gets it completely right on the next try: 1080p with enough horsepower to go toe-to-toe with BD players in terms of resolution, (up to) 60 fps, and up to whatever BD players can play in Mbps. If BD is still a "bag of hurt" how about delivering something that at least matches what it can do in it's most fundamental benefit: brilliant picture quality?

German
Jun 9, 2011, 06:51 PM
The quality of the iTunes Store 720p is usually better than for a similar file size from an 720p encoding you might do with Handbrake from a Blu Ray for those reasons. With that being said, they both produce outstanding quality.
That is totally wrong.
Some people did it in a german forum (x264) and the iTunes Movies look much worse (similiar file size).
You seems to be a noob; so you don't know the H.264 features like CABAC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC

German magazine c't did a test with some video stores in gemany. itunes was in last place (in terms of quality).

German
Jun 9, 2011, 06:56 PM
duh. What kind of comparison is that? I might suggest: a good 480p video (encoded well) will look better than a very modest[ly] encoded 720p video too. We could probably work that down to VCR quality video as long as the lower res one is encoded well and the higher res one gets poor encoding.

Those hungry for 1080p :apple:TV are never arguing for "modest encoding." The hunger is for delivering a picture to the max- about as good as their 1080p HDTV can show. If the "cost" of a 1080p :apple:TV version 3 would be that it has to involve poor quality encodes, what's the point?

Ideally, Apple gets it completely right on the next try: 1080p with enough horsepower to go toe-to-toe with BD players in terms of resolution, (up to) 60 fps, and up to whatever BD players can play in Mbps. If BD is still a "bag of hurt" how about delivering something that at least matches what it can do in it's most fundamental benefit: brilliant picture quality?

You need good encoders and H.264 HighProfile with all "quality features" to get good quality and acceptable file size.

Diary Of An x264 Developer (*)
"“Professional” tools for Blu-ray video encoding can cost as much as $100,000 and are often utter garbage."

"With x264′s powerful compression, as demonstrated by the incredibly popular BD-Rebuilder Blu-ray backup software, it’s quite possible to author Blu-ray disks on DVD9s (dual-layer DVDs) or even DVD5s (single-layer DVDs) with a reasonable level of quality."
http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/archives/328



(*)
"According to Apple Insider, the Messaianic chief Macolyte was asked what he thought of the VP8 WebM video in an email, to which Steve simply replied with a link to a posting on Jason Garret-Glaser's Diary Of An x264 Developer blog. (http://www.thinq.co.uk/2010/5/21/steve-jobs-email-dismisses-vp8-video-codec/)"

Soura2112
Jun 9, 2011, 07:10 PM
I almost purchased a 2nd apple tv recently because my new receiver has 5 HDMI inputs. Had to replace my old recover due to bad HDMI ports, so I picked a new one up and now have the ability to use HDMI again.
My experience with the current AppleTV has been great. I don't rent or buy from I tunes, just lots of digital copies and handbreak. On my 50" the picture is pretty good fr a stream, it's not blu ray but very good.
Love the iPhonr connection, makes sharing nice.
Also my Mac Pro had about 30,000 pics and about 25,000 songs, they sound and look great.
For 99.99 it's really a no brainer if you have a port open.
So I hope 1080 comes out looking great, though for me it will mostly be for videos I shoot in 1080 or 720.
Be cool if they add even more features....just keep it at 99.99!

fpnc
Jun 9, 2011, 07:14 PM
Apple A4 = ARM Cortex A8 + SGX 535 + VXD 375

The VXD 375 is the Video-Decoder.
I guess that has been reported by some sources (i.e. VXD 375) but I really don't think we know with certainty all of the internal details about the A4 and A5. In any case, I'll stand corrected by your post. The reports, however, about the Tegra 2's problems with high-quality 1080p source video do seem fairly well established (at least with the generation of chip that was planned for the Boxee Box).

Imagination Technologies video decoders seem to have a range of abilities depending upon their core clock speeds and specific families and without full knowledge about such things I'm not sure we can estimate what the capabilities should be for HD decode on the existing iPhone 4 and original iPad (using Apple's A4 SoC). In any case, it would be kind of odd if it could be shown that Apple's A4 actually had a more capable video decoder than NVIDIA's Tegra 2. The A5 is a different matter, I think just about everyone concedes that the A5 is a better graphics performer than the Tegra 2 (for both 3D graphics and video).

xlii
Jun 9, 2011, 07:29 PM
Wish it were true but Apple probably won't update the AppleTV for another 2 more years.

Mattsasa
Jun 9, 2011, 07:31 PM
Wish it were true but Apple probably won't update the AppleTV for another 2 more years.

false

ipedro
Jun 9, 2011, 07:36 PM
All I want is Mail, Safari, iTunes along with Bluetooth support for keyboard+trackpad.

Instant 99$ living room Mac. :D

Not enough on-board storage, you say? iCloud.

It does. iOS5's Airplay Mirroring will do that for you. Your iPod, iPhone or iPad has all those apps (and the tens of thousands more on the App Store), and the picture will show up on your TV.

MacFly123
Jun 9, 2011, 07:37 PM
would anyone that actually has the tv 2 go out and buy the tv3, just because it offers slightly better picture?

ABSOLUTELY! Especially since it will almost definitely have some new software features as well such as an app store or maybe more likely, AirPlay for apps like the new mirroring! :eek: It's only $99 dude! I'll upgrade every time a new one comes out! :D

fpnc
Jun 9, 2011, 07:43 PM
The quality of the iTunes Store 720p is usually better than for a similar file size from an 720p encoding you might do with Handbrake from a Blu Ray for those reasons. With that being said, they both produce outstanding quality.
That is totally wrong.
Some people did it in a german forum (x264) and the iTunes Movies look much worse (similiar file size).
You seems to be a noob; so you don't know the H.264 features like CABAC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC

German magazine c't did a test with some video stores in gemany. itunes was in last place (in terms of quality).
I would tend to agree with German on this point (except the comment about being a "noob"). I've never been that impressed with the video quality from the iTunes Store. Some of the content is okay or even better than okay but it's often not top quality. However, in comparison to many of the so-called HD sources on the internet the iTunes Store is probably no worse nor better than middle-of-the-pack.

The QuickTime H.264 encoder is also pretty bad, at bit rates that are likely to be used for streaming content Handbrake does a much, much better job. The flip side, however, is that some of the higher "profile" encodings produced by Handbrake are not compatible with Apple's products (i.e. early iPod touch and iPhones).

Lastly, I don't believe that Apple actually does the encodings for the iTunes Store (I'm not sure about this, does anyone know with absolute certainty?). I suspect that Apple provides the tools for the encodings (or maybe they just provide the specs) but I'm pretty certain that the movie and TV studios themselves control the workflow for the final content. Thus, they -- the studios and content owners -- can choose whatever source they want (quality wise) and they control the final quality (or lack thereof, given restrictions that may be imposed by Apple's devices). Anyway, that's my GUESS, but if anyone can point to a reputable source that shows otherwise then please comment.

kuwisdelu
Jun 9, 2011, 07:44 PM
Anyone know if Apple implemented support for more H.264 high profile features in iOS 5, or did they just remove the 1080p limitation?

djransom
Jun 9, 2011, 07:44 PM
would anyone that actually has the tv 2 go out and buy the tv3, just because it offers slightly better picture?

Unless there are some major upgrades to ATV then no I wouldn't honestly. 1080P is not enough alone to have me run out and buy another ATV. I'm good with what I have.

Yvan256
Jun 9, 2011, 07:46 PM
Which computer does Apple sell for $249?

Some people want a desktop, not a portable. I'm not buying another Mac portable - going to use a desktop/iPad combo instead..

The competition isn't only between Apple products. If Apple sells a living room computer (:apple:TV) at the same price as a Windows netbook, some people will choose the netbook because it's portable.

No matter who makes it, a lot of people only see the price tag, especially if they never used anything else but Windows.

That's why a 99$ living room computer, the :apple:TV, is such an interesting idea. All it's missing is basically software.

Avatar74
Jun 9, 2011, 07:54 PM
i don't get the obsession with HD TVs and such. my monitor had higher resolution back in 2004

I am not sure I understand the point of this comparison. Computer user interfaces are rendered graphics generated in realtime, the interaction with which is generated by user input. Therefore, display monitors can encompass a variety of dynamic resolutions according to whatever the graphics card will support.

In the case of video, however, there is no graphics card generating the output in realtime. The video signal is of a fixed resolution dependent upon the source recording. Increasing the resolution past 1920x1080 isn't going to give you a more detailed image. It's going to give you an image that occupies less physical space on the same display screen.

The other difference is that computer graphics of high resolution are typically generated locally, as opposed to being broadcast or distributed over a wired/wireless medium with a throughput ceiling... You don't want, as a provider or a customer, to be beset by all kinds of random sources as opposed to one ITU-R standard that keeps signal uniform across the board. Otherwise, it'd be a giant headache for providers and customers alike.

So, yes, you can spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on a better graphics card to give you unimaginably high resolutions for an interactive user interface... and this is meaningful to compare to video how?

Maybe some day there'll be a magical ability to display more video than was actually pre-recorded but I'm going to guess not before we have warp drive, transporters, and Johnny Five come alive...

But, I will add that Ultra-High Definition is coming... 7680 x 4320. Currently in the testing stages in Japan, and likely to deploy in 15 years. I'd like to see the pricetag on a graphics card that can support that kind of UI resolution... (as well as the practicality of it since mobile computing devices are becoming smaller, not larger; and any detail beyond 300dpi is indiscernible to the human eye).

Yvan256
Jun 9, 2011, 07:55 PM
It does. iOS5's Airplay Mirroring will do that for you. Your iPod, iPhone or iPad has all those apps (and the tens of thousands more on the App Store), and the picture will show up on your TV.

Great, so instead of a 99$ Apple computer attached to my TV, it becomes a 99$ :apple:TV + 250$ iPod touch... :confused:

Not everyone has all those gadgets. I'm talking about households with no computers or iDevices whatsoever, where the :apple:TV would be the only computer in the house.

fpnc
Jun 9, 2011, 08:00 PM
It does. iOS5's Airplay Mirroring will do that for you. Your iPod, iPhone or iPad has all those apps (and the tens of thousands more on the App Store), and the picture will show up on your TV.
Except that Airplay mirroring only works with the iPad 2. So, the existing iPods and iPhones will not do that for you. But, of course, maybe we'll have A5-based updates to the iPod touch and iPhone at just about the same time that iOS 5 ships.

Also, from what I've seen Airplay mirroring doesn't work that well for games (not that games were mentioned in the original post). Maybe it will work better by the time it actually ships but I've seen demos online that indicate a noticeable delay between the action on the iPad and the video on the TV which could make action games a little difficult to play. Also, I've seen AirPlay mirroring demos where the game video stutters very noticeably. Frankly, for some games you will need native code running directly on the Apple TV and that's why we need an iTunes app store for the Apple TV.

cmaier
Jun 9, 2011, 08:04 PM
Wish it were true but Apple probably won't update the AppleTV for another 2 more years.

Wanna bet?

smdc76
Jun 9, 2011, 08:05 PM
Truth be told, you probably won't see much of a difference between 720 and 1080 unless you have a big-ass TV (like over 50 inches). All this talk about 1080p sounds more hype than anything.

Aragornii
Jun 9, 2011, 08:08 PM
Personally, I'd also like to see an analog audio out for the many receivers that have "Zone 2" options that only work with an analog feed.



The TOSLINK out will give you your multi-zone output.

DaveN
Jun 9, 2011, 08:55 PM
would anyone that actually has the tv 2 go out and buy the tv3, just because it offers slightly better picture?

No need for an upgrade for me. My tv 2 is in a bedroom and the tv in there is a 32 inch 720p.

AgentElliot007
Jun 9, 2011, 09:28 PM
Except that Airplay mirroring only works with the iPad 2. So, the existing iPods and iPhones will not do that for you. But, of course, maybe we'll have A5-based updates to the iPod touch and iPhone at just about the same time that iOS 5 ships.

Also, from what I've seen Airplay mirroring doesn't work that well for games (not that games were mentioned in the original post). Maybe it will work better by the time it actually ships but I've seen demos online that indicate a noticeable delay between the action on the iPad and the video on the TV which could make action games a little difficult to play. Also, I've seen AirPlay mirroring demos where the game video stutters very noticeably. Frankly, for some games you will need native code running directly on the Apple TV and that's why we need an iTunes app store for the Apple TV.

I've wondered how AirPlay mirroring would function, at least initially, as even just sending audio to Apple TV via AirPlay yields a significant delay. I didn't notice until I randomly sent audio from a metronome app that featured a graphic representation that accompanied the audio…they were way out of sync!

I've got to imagine that it's something that they can improve upon very quickly though. At least I hope they can, because if the delay remains the same, it'll be useless for most games. The Real Racing HD 2 folks seem confident that they'll have a great product out featuring full AirPlay support when iOS 5 drops, so we'll see. They nailed their HDMI out support with full 1080p gaming, I'll tell you that much.

afireintonto
Jun 9, 2011, 09:35 PM
would anyone go out and buy a next iPad because it has twice the pixels packed into the same physical space?

that's A LOT different, than an upgrade from 720p to 1080p.
the difference between 720 and 1080 is so marginal that unless your sitting like 5 feet away from your tv you won't be able to see the difference.

plus, a retina display is actually 4 times the number of pixels of what the current ipad has.

8CoreWhore
Jun 9, 2011, 09:37 PM
I'd write something meaningful here, but at this point no one's gonna read it so...

eNcrypTioN
Jun 9, 2011, 10:28 PM
Guess I'll be waiting for tv3.

Macsimus11
Jun 9, 2011, 10:39 PM
I plan on getting the AT3 mainly because I have been considering getting a second AT2 for my daughter's room. Now she can take it and I can put the new one in the living room where the big TV is.

jjp14
Jun 9, 2011, 10:48 PM
This is almost perfect for me. My ATV2 in my living room is currently hooked up to a 1080p display. I can move that one to my bedroom, which has a 720p display, and get an ATV3 for the living room. Awesome.

BTW
Jun 10, 2011, 01:29 AM
Ah, shoot. That of course is not the news existing AppleTV owners like myself want to hear. If only my AppleTV 2.0 would support 1080p. Oh well. It would be nice if is support Pandora, Hulu Plus, and sported the App store too but I won't hold my breath. :)

catmistake
Jun 10, 2011, 01:30 AM
I don't consider apple serious about 1080p until they actually start offering it in their own itunes store.

I don't consider consumers serious about 1080p until they actually own a 70"+ screen on which to display it.

jiwa
Jun 10, 2011, 03:32 AM
So the VXD375 video decoder in the AppleTV 2 physically can't do 1080P? Surely this isn't the case?
I've got a $70 Chinese media player that plays >10gig 1080p Bluray rips beautifully, with DTS HD/DD True HD. The Apple TV2 is rather crippled if this is the case.

peterjcat
Jun 10, 2011, 03:42 AM
I don't consider consumers serious about 1080p until they actually own a 70"+ screen on which to display it.

Nobody should consider anyone serious who only considers screen size and not viewing distance :)

kppolich
Jun 10, 2011, 03:56 AM
not a firmware upgrade im guessing, most likely 3rd generation. bummer.

Ifti
Jun 10, 2011, 04:47 AM
Just ordered my TV2.
I will be upgrading my iPad soon so as long as I have wireless mirroring I wouldn tbother with TV3 to be honest, unless its something really drastically special!

HobeSoundDarryl
Jun 10, 2011, 06:26 AM
The TOSLINK out will give you your multi-zone output.

Afraid not. A lot of the "zone 2" functionality on receivers requires analog (not digital) out.

HobeSoundDarryl
Jun 10, 2011, 06:39 AM
that's A LOT different, than an upgrade from 720p to 1080p.
the difference between 720 and 1080 is so marginal that unless your sitting like 5 feet away from your tv you won't be able to see the difference.

plus, a retina display is actually 4 times the number of pixels of what the current ipad has.

It's so funny how we Mac fans post so much about the hunger for more, more, more (better CPUs, latest graphics cards, retina displays, more storage in iDevices, more Flash in iDevices, higher resolution cameras, etc), except for this ONE thing where we somehow have convinced ourselves that less than the max standard is THE way to go.

4 times the number of pixels on a 9-inch screen makes sense, but just 2 times the number of pixels on a 40, 50, 60, 70+ inch screen doesn't. So funny.

It is not "marginal" differences for everyone; I find it very easy to see the difference in my own situation. That's not saying that 720p looks bad. It's more along the lines of "why not?". If YOU are satisfied with Apple 720p standard, GREAT! You could still enjoy it to the fullest on 1080p hardware too, as better hardware can always play lesser-demanding software. It just doesn't work the other way.

Just about every other set top :apple:TV-like box has long been 1080p. If Jobs wants to turn the page (vs. BD), he needs to deliver something that competes in the most fundamental benefit of BD: picture quality. When it comes to the fundamentals of computing technology, "good enough" is rarely what people want... they want "great". Except, for some reason, with this thing.

OmegaRed1723
Jun 10, 2011, 07:00 AM
Nobody should consider anyone serious who only considers screen size and not viewing distance :)

Exactly. On a 70" screen, the pixel density of 1080p is only 31.47 ppi. You would need to sit further away from the set than you would say, a 56" set with the same resolution (39.34 ppi) for it to look proper. That is to say, one can certainly appreciate the full glory of 1080p on a sub-70" set, even while sitting closer to the screen.

Personally, I'll welcome the additional horsepower (and potentially storage) the 3rd gen :apple:TV will have. That said, I'll likely keep to high bit rate 720p files over 1080p. A 10-12GB 720p file gives me 85-90% of the picture quality (to my eyes) and 100% of the audio quality at 1/5 the file size. Storage is cheap, but not cheap enough to store 50+ TV series and 300+ movies at full resolution.

imola.zhp
Jun 10, 2011, 08:43 AM
This makes complete sense because..........................

I just bought an ATV two weeks ago...

Awesome...

ftaok
Jun 10, 2011, 09:05 AM
Cool!

Bummer is now if I want to go 1080P I will have to re-encode my collection. I am happy with the balance of convenience and resolution of the current ATV, but as someone with borderline obsessive compulsive tendencies, I will do it anyway - LOL!

I'll just have to figure out a way to do 720P to the kids' TV since it does not do 1080P. I suppose I'll have to have theirs linked to their iMac with the 720P stuff on it where the living room TV will be linked to my MBP with the 1080P encodes.The aTV2 can play 1080p videos (albeit, outputted at 720p), so you can keep one copy of the movie in 1080p and the kids aTV2 and your rumored-aTV3 can play the same file.

note - 1080p videos on the aTV2 may result in some frame drops, depending on the encoded bit rate and other factors. I'm guessing that when aTV3 shows up, the Handbrake guys will come up with a great pre-set that encodes in 1080p at the appropriate bit-rate to look great on both the aTV2 and the aTV3.

toddybody
Jun 10, 2011, 09:30 AM
Bout' darn time.

I thought it hilarious that all the ATV acolytes defended 720p tooth and nail...while citing the only 2 advantages of 720p>1080P, being file size and processing requirements(which is almost moot). Watch them do a 180 and talk about how wonderful 1080p is now. Yeesh

OddyOh
Jun 10, 2011, 10:01 AM
I just got my ATV2 a couple months ago, but I'll upgrade for an App Store...

afireintonto
Jun 10, 2011, 10:02 AM
Bout' darn time.

I thought it hilarious that all the ATV acolytes defended 720p tooth and nail...while citing the only 2 advantages of 720p>1080P, being file size and processing requirements(which is almost moot). Watch them do a 180 and talk about how wonderful 1080p is now. Yeesh

1080p is a great thing, i love streaming 1080, i just don't see myself buying it...ever - especially in digital format, it's just way too much to store comparatively.

I get bluray's via netflix, and i love watching a good film on bluray. But i'm not convinced that renting a movie from iTunes in 1080, will compare to the sound and picture that bluray offers, and it's definitely not worth another $99 because netflix steaming will still be 720. And I never rent from iTunes, wasted money when i can get unlimited bluray's a month from netflix as part of the $12 subscription.

Rootus
Jun 10, 2011, 10:36 AM
How many people have a TV big enough to see the difference between 720p and 1080p? It's really just a marketing bullet point if you don't have a 55+ inch TV, so I'm not I expect a big bump in AppleTV sales when this feature is added in the fall.

Aragornii
Jun 10, 2011, 11:10 AM
Afraid not. A lot of the "zone 2" functionality on receivers requires analog (not digital) out.

That's correct, some receivers can't handle digital on zone 2. For those you need to get a 20 dollar TOSLINK to analog converter from monoprice.com and you're good to go.

HobeSoundDarryl
Jun 10, 2011, 12:11 PM
That's correct, some receivers can't handle digital on zone 2. For those you need to get a 20 dollar TOSLINK to analog converter from monoprice.com and you're good to go.

Or Apple could just build it in as the same board is the basis for other iDevices that include analog audio out. It would cost Apple a tiny fraction of $20 to include it and it would be a nice value add.

cmaier
Jun 10, 2011, 12:11 PM
How many people have a TV big enough to see the difference between 720p and 1080p? It's really just a marketing bullet point if you don't have a 55+ inch TV, so I'm not I expect a big bump in AppleTV sales when this feature is added in the fall.

It makes a fairly noticeable difference if your set is native 1080p. It does no good at all if your set is native 720p.

kppolich
Jun 10, 2011, 12:15 PM
its 2011 people, 720p has been around for 10+ years, like all things, its time to upgrade, and YES there is an actual difference.

ten-oak-druid
Jun 10, 2011, 12:17 PM
Afraid not. A lot of the "zone 2" functionality on receivers requires analog (not digital) out.

I have the same issue. I have zone two audio going up through the ceiling, to the opposite wall and out to the back yard where I have quality rock speakers from TIC. I also have a video line that goes out there. I can play music or carry my projector out (usually I have sports on the side of the house).

The video is not HD btw but from 25ft, the projected video is really good. No complaints. If I want HD I go inside.

Anyway, if I stream music to zone 2 I use the airport express. The appletv can't do this. For video I can't use the appletv either because I'd have to get an HD projector and run an HDMI cable out. I usually send Directv signal or if I want video from itunes I use my older macbook with a video adapter. That adapter will not work with newer laptops though.

The ideal situation would be to have an appletv that could simultaneously put out digital and analog audio and video like the directv unit does.

Another option for the future would be to use the laptop outside plugged into the projector directly and be able to send the audio wirelessly to the airport express. Right now it is not possible because while Apple allows you to watch video on an iOS device and send audio through airplay, you cannot do this from itunes. It is insane. Perhaps this will change in Lion?

I use an older G-speed wifi express. It works fine for streaming music and you can find them for less.



its 2011 people, 720p has been around for 10+ years, like all things, its time to upgrade, and YES there is an actual difference.

^^
Yes we will all get to 1080p eventually. But seriously having grown up with a CRT TV, 720p is great. I have a 1080p TV but only 480p Directv and 720p Appletv. I do have a PS3 for bluray but it hardly gets used. I refuse to pay extra for HD from a TV carrier. I do not watch enough network TV to justify it. I watch sports mostly but I am more interested in the game itself than if I can see the individual ice crystals kicked up by the hockey skates.

The thing is that 720p allows for a larger TV in a smaller room than would be possible with standard def. The same is true for 1080p but really the size of the TV in my room is just fine with the given distance with 720p. Even the 480 looks fine for broadcast TV. 480 is HD too compared to older broadcast TV.

HobeSoundDarryl
Jun 10, 2011, 12:19 PM
The ideal situation would be to have an appletv that could simultaneously put out digital and analog audio and video like the directv unit does.

The first generation :apple:TV does this. It's one of 3 features I wish would be resurrected in gen 3.

tucotuti
Jun 10, 2011, 12:37 PM
Bye Bye Blu-ray...

Menneisyys2
Jun 10, 2011, 12:53 PM
Furthermore, even though the original iPad, the iPhone 4, and the current Apple TV CAN decode some 1080p content it has been reported that the playback of such content is not without flaws.

They can - even High L4.1 content, that is, the format 99,9% of the 1080p MKV's currently available around the Internet are encoded in (that is, of you correctly demux the MKV videos, you can get a playable MP4 in some minutes only). The output is pretty nice, albeit there surely is some stuttering with excessive pans. Nevertheless, it's not very visible or annoying. (Of course, the iPad 2 is even better - with it, I haven't even noticed any playback stuttering.)

Menneisyys2
Jun 10, 2011, 12:55 PM
It doesn't need to be jailbroken to play Blu Ray rips.

Yup, unless you want to mirror it on an external screen, no JB'ing is needed, not even under pre-iOS5 or on, compared to the iPad2, slower devices (iPad / iPhone4).

Menneisyys2
Jun 10, 2011, 12:58 PM
The device can not, however, officially support 1080p video files under the iOS 4.x software

Indeed you cannot synchronize these MP4 videos through the Movies tab. However, if you pass them to a third-party app that just passes them forward to the Videos app on the iPad (2) / iPhone 4 / iPT4, they'll happily play it back - on the iPad2, without any kind of stuttering.

A lot of third-party apps support this on all the above-mentioned platforms; e.g., Remux MKV Player etc. (I can compile a full list of these apps if anyone is interested - you see, I'm working on a Video playback bible for iOS so I've been testing all these apps.)

diamond.g
Jun 10, 2011, 01:31 PM
So if 720p iTunes video is (on average) twice as large as 480p iTunes video, how much larger is 1080p iTunes video going to be?

MagnusVonMagnum
Jun 10, 2011, 01:40 PM
I find it odd that ATV2 can decode 1080p, but it cannot play it. Decoding is typically the hard part. Scaling is more work yet. It seems like it should be a software limitation. Otherwise, that is some odd GPU they're using.

In any case, most of the complaints about how crappy 720p is are due to El Cheapo scalers in most low-end 1080p sets (that would be MOST of them). It's the same as a cheap 24" LCD monitor. It looks great in its native resolution, but the minute you change to another resolution, it looks like blurry CRAP. I have such a 24" LG monitor here. It works fine for my MBP because I only use it in native resolution. Compare that to my higher-end LG 24" monitor that cost 2x as much that I have on my PC used for gaming (where changing to a difference resolution often makes a difference on newer games as the system ages or older ones that didn't support wide-modes) and other resolutions look MUCH better than on the cheaper LG and the difference is the quality of the SCALER used in the higher-end model.

I have a 93" screen with a top-rated 720p projector from a few years ago when 1080p projectors were priced out of the stratosphere ($1700 versus $5000+ for 1080p) and I'm sitting at 9 feet from the screen where you can tell 1080p from 720p (unlike where most people sit relative to much smaller screens) and 720p looks UNBELIEVABLY good. But that projector is native at 720p and so it looks as good as it possibly can with 720p material. I can guarantee that a cheaper 1080p projector with a so-so scaler would not produce the same results when playing 720p material and that is why 1080p material looks so much better on those than a slight resolution increase should suggest (about the same as standing back an extra 5 feet with 93" screen; you could not tell the difference at that distance at all). A really high-end 1080p projector would look similar at 720p, but probably still slightly less quality.

And THAT is the area that the modern flat-screen era has created new problems in. CRT multi-sync displays actually could switch modes and produce native output at each resolution and thus look perfect in any mode. A family member has a 1999 Panasonic 57" CRT HDTV that can do true 720p AND true 1080i (no 1080p back then even existed in the wild).

That brings me to my next point. Most HDTV material out there is not 1080p. Only BD and some PPV type stuff is 1080p. All other broadcast HDTV is either 720p or 1080i. They will not look as good as they can on most 1080p sets either. So unless you are mostly going to watch 1080p sources AND have a set size at a given distance that you're sitting that can show you the actual resolution distance (we're talking sitting <6 feet away with a 48" set, for example to actually tell 1080p from 720p at native resolution), you're wasting your time/money going 1080p. You could argue it's better to buy 1080p material now than have to replace it later and I wouldn't argue.

You can always encode to 720p for maximum quality on something like ATV, but you cannot get true 720p out of a poor scaler on a 1080p set; you WILL get a blurred/distorted version instead). This is because it's much easier to scale down than to scale up well. The whole reason you have DVD players with up-conversion is they are betting the scaler in your set SUCKS and so their 'better' scaler in the player will do a better job. If your set's scaler is better than the DVD player, you should generally not use the player's scaled output.

Menneisyys2
Jun 10, 2011, 01:43 PM
Anyone know if Apple implemented support for more H.264 high profile features in iOS 5, or did they just remove the 1080p limitation?

Just removed the limitation. Apart from the inability to sync as a Movie under pre-iOS5, all 4.x devices (particularly the iPad2, of course, which has absolutely no stuttering) are pretty capable at playing back 1080p Level 4.1 High - the format 99.999% of 1080p content is available in the H.264 format. There aren't other differences between iOS4 and 5, it seems - all my video format playback tests have resulted in equal results under both iOS4 and 5 on both my iPad1 and iPad2 (with the iPad2 being much faster, of course).

Menneisyys2
Jun 10, 2011, 01:48 PM
Truth be told, you probably won't see much of a difference between 720 and 1080 unless you have a big-ass TV (like over 50 inches). All this talk about 1080p sounds more hype than anything.

The best thing about native 1080p support (even if one's TV can't really show it) is that you only need one version of them (the 1080p), which you can deploy on any of your devices (notebooks, ATV, iPad2, iPhone5 or, if you can live with the occasional stuttering, even the iPhone4 / iPad1) without the need for getting a lower-resolution version or transcoding. The latter would take a LOT of time and CPU power - only the latest Sandy Bridge platforms support realtime H.264 1080p encoding.

ten-oak-druid
Jun 10, 2011, 03:45 PM
Bye Bye Blu-ray...


Apparently blu-ray sales are down already for various reasons.

I think that for a slight decrease in resolution, people prefer not having to get up and put the disk in and wait for the un-skipable ads on a disk.

For me the benefit of hard copies is partly as a collector for my favorite movies and also for extras that come with the movie. But I'm starting to reserve my collecting of hard copies for true favorites. It also occurs to me that I can always use neflix to get the hard copy for the extras if i really want to see those.

If I worked for the movie companies, I would start offering hard copies in true collectors version: buy a movie and you get the blu-ray, digital copy, the soundtrack, extras and perhaps a booklet. But the movie industry will continue with the "tried and true" formula.

Menneisyys2
Jun 10, 2011, 07:40 PM
Indeed you cannot synchronize these MP4 videos through the Movies tab. However, if you pass them to a third-party app that just passes them forward to the Videos app on the iPad (2) / iPhone 4 / iPT4, they'll happily play it back - on the iPad2, without any kind of stuttering.

A lot of third-party apps support this on all the above-mentioned platforms; e.g., Remux MKV Player etc. (I can compile a full list of these apps if anyone is interested - you see, I'm working on a Video playback bible for iOS so I've been testing all these apps.)

I've compiled a list of current iOS players that use hardware H.264 decoding - that is, ones that are able to play back even L4.1 High without problems on the iPad2 and only with small stuttering / problems on prev-gen hardware.

They're as follows:

Videos (only iOS5+, as has been explained)
DOTORI PLAYER By JUNG DISK 1.3.4
BUZZ Player HD by BUGUN Software 1.8
ATK Player By Khoa Tran Anh 2.0
Azul Media Player - Video player for your iPad By Gplex 2.0 (don't select SW decoding!)
AVPlayerHD By EPLAYWORKS.Co.Ltd 1.422 (don't select SW decoding! NOTE: HW acceleration does NOT work under the current iOS5 beta – at least on the iPad2!)
yxplayer By mobilesoft.kr 1.2.5

(Even on the iPad2) uselessly slow software-only decoding (and no way of selecting HW decode) or plain incompatible (unsupported format) players:

XBMC (Cydia only; despite the devs' claim, I've found it slow at decoding L4.1 video)
OPlayer HD By olimsoft 1.0.16
GPlayer By Ginkgo Tech 1.0.00
Movie Player – Plays any Video! By Dominic Rodemer
eXPlayer HD By Zhigang Chen 1.3
GoodPlayer By Hustmobile 2.2
Sub Video Player for iPad By Noteloop 1.0 (=Remux MKV Player) (nonsupported format of the test file - with supported formats, it does use HW acceleration. However, I still don't recommend it - I'll explain later why)
VLC (AppStore; removed)
CineXPlayer – The best way to enjoy your Xvid movies By NXP Software B.V. 2.1 (nonsupported format)

AidenShaw
Jun 10, 2011, 08:35 PM
How many people have a TV big enough to see the difference between 720p and 1080p? It's really just a marketing bullet point if you don't have a 55+ inch TV, so I'm not I expect a big bump in AppleTV sales when this feature is added in the fall.

You can easily see the difference between 720p and 1080p on a 10" screen - if you hold it close enough.

You can easily see the difference on a 40" screen that's at a close viewing distance. You can't see the difference on a 120" screen that's 30m away from you. A lot of people have setups that can distinguish the difference - they may have smaller TVs, but they're sitting closer.

Here's a quick, rough check. Sit where you watch TV, and hold a ruler at arm's length. Measure the apparent height of your TV screen. If it's about 15cm or more (6" for the colonials), it's big enough for most people to be able to tell the difference.

There's also the issue that since more and more TVs even in modest sizes are 1080p (at BestBuy nearly half the TVs in the 30" to 40" range are 1080p, and all above 40" are 1080p), 720p content has to be scaled to native resolution. Common sense says that scaling an image isn't helpful for its quality.

Atlantico
Jun 11, 2011, 08:06 AM
I wouldn't waste my money (even if I could and I can't) on Apple's low bitrate, low quality online video options.

MagnusVonMagnum
Jun 11, 2011, 08:43 AM
I wouldn't waste my money (even if I could and I can't) on Apple's low bitrate, low quality online video options.

I wouldn't call it low quality. On a proper 720p native projector (high quality Panasonic PT-AX100u) with a 93" screen at a mere 9 feet viewing distance, I see absolutely no signs of distortion or other effects that you get with bit-rates that are too low. I think most of the people that bad-mouth ATV's video quality either have bad quality scalers on 1080 native sets that are doing the damage (or worse yet watching it on a high resolution monitor at 2 feet away) or have never seen it and are going by their imagination with numbers.

I have seen such artifacts on cable PPV HD movies and very bad ones at that, but never on an Apple HD rental.

ten-oak-druid
Jun 11, 2011, 02:37 PM
I wouldn't waste my money (even if I could and I can't) on Apple's low bitrate, low quality online video options.

Give me a break. The AppleTV is not low quality. Next thing you'll tell us that you watch Netflix in 1080p on device X.

emaja
Jun 11, 2011, 02:47 PM
I wouldn't call it low quality. On a proper 720p native projector (high quality Panasonic PT-AX100u) with a 93" screen at a mere 9 feet viewing distance, I see absolutely no signs of distortion or other effects that you get with bit-rates that are too low. I think most of the people that bad-mouth ATV's video quality either have bad quality scalers on 1080 native sets that are doing the damage (or worse yet watching it on a high resolution monitor at 2 feet away) or have never seen it and are going by their imagination with numbers.

I have purchased TV shows from iTunes and can see blotchiness in the blacks in darker scenes. I have a 4 year old Sony DLP and never see this on any other media source - Bluray, HD-DVD, or games.

It is not horrible, but defiantly noticeable.

israelagm
Jun 11, 2011, 03:51 PM
I want a new Apple TV...

MagnusVonMagnum
Jun 11, 2011, 06:09 PM
I have purchased TV shows from iTunes and can see blotchiness in the blacks in darker scenes. I have a 4 year old Sony DLP and never see this on any other media source - Bluray, HD-DVD, or games.

It is not horrible, but defiantly noticeable.

I don't have a lot of iTunes TV shows to comment (just Doctor Who and only the last season an current is in HD; the SD seasons were awful 'jaggy' quality looking, but I got them on sale for like $10 a season.

I've never seen that effect on an iTunes movie rental. I have seen it on some of my own Handbrake encodes while testing encode rates (i.e. the maximum rate ATV1 can handle over the air streaming tends to be different than what it can handle when I sync the movie first. I had to find the highest reliable streaming rate. Fortunately, it doesn't have the problem at that rate (set #23 on HB as opposed to #20 default). The upstairs ATV can handle faster rates (higher speed connection over the air). I'm still thinking I should just run an Ethernet cable downstairs and be done with it. I could then put in the Crystal HD card and never have to re-encode anything for that room and get true 1080p at some point if I need it by going Linux + XBMC install on that ATV.

caspersoong
Jun 11, 2011, 07:30 PM
I was just thinking about Steve's comment about 1080p being redundant. Has he changed his mind?

suss2it
Jun 13, 2011, 11:34 PM
I've compiled a list of current iOS players that use hardware H.264 decoding - that is, ones that are able to play back even L4.1 High without problems on the iPad2 and only with small stuttering / problems on prev-gen hardware.

They're as follows:

Videos (only iOS5+, as has been explained)
DOTORI PLAYER By JUNG DISK 1.3.4
BUZZ Player HD by BUGUN Software 1.8
ATK Player By Khoa Tran Anh 2.0
Azul Media Player - Video player for your iPad By Gplex 2.0 (don't select SW decoding!)
AVPlayerHD By EPLAYWORKS.Co.Ltd 1.422 (don't select SW decoding! NOTE: HW acceleration does NOT work under the current iOS5 beta – at least on the iPad2!)
yxplayer By mobilesoft.kr 1.2.5

(Even on the iPad2) uselessly slow software-only decoding (and no way of selecting HW decode) or plain incompatible (unsupported format) players:

XBMC (Cydia only; despite the devs' claim, I've found it slow at decoding L4.1 video)
OPlayer HD By olimsoft 1.0.16
GPlayer By Ginkgo Tech 1.0.00
Movie Player – Plays any Video! By Dominic Rodemer
eXPlayer HD By Zhigang Chen 1.3
GoodPlayer By Hustmobile 2.2
Sub Video Player for iPad By Noteloop 1.0 (=Remux MKV Player) (nonsupported format of the test file - with supported formats, it does use HW acceleration. However, I still don't recommend it - I'll explain later why)
VLC (AppStore; removed)
CineXPlayer – The best way to enjoy your Xvid movies By NXP Software B.V. 2.1 (nonsupported format)
Thanks a lot for this post. I got Dotori for my iPhone 4 and it plays the 1080p videos I have perfectly.

suss2it
Jun 15, 2011, 10:02 PM
I've compiled a list of current iOS players that use hardware H.264 decoding - that is, ones that are able to play back even L4.1 High without problems on the iPad2 and only with small stuttering / problems on prev-gen hardware.

They're as follows:

Videos (only iOS5+, as has been explained)
DOTORI PLAYER By JUNG DISK 1.3.4
BUZZ Player HD by BUGUN Software 1.8
ATK Player By Khoa Tran Anh 2.0
Azul Media Player - Video player for your iPad By Gplex 2.0 (don't select SW decoding!)
AVPlayerHD By EPLAYWORKS.Co.Ltd 1.422 (don't select SW decoding! NOTE: HW acceleration does NOT work under the current iOS5 beta – at least on the iPad2!)
yxplayer By mobilesoft.kr 1.2.5

(Even on the iPad2) uselessly slow software-only decoding (and no way of selecting HW decode) or plain incompatible (unsupported format) players:

XBMC (Cydia only; despite the devs' claim, I've found it slow at decoding L4.1 video)
OPlayer HD By olimsoft 1.0.16
GPlayer By Ginkgo Tech 1.0.00
Movie Player – Plays any Video! By Dominic Rodemer
eXPlayer HD By Zhigang Chen 1.3
GoodPlayer By Hustmobile 2.2
Sub Video Player for iPad By Noteloop 1.0 (=Remux MKV Player) (nonsupported format of the test file - with supported formats, it does use HW acceleration. However, I still don't recommend it - I'll explain later why)
VLC (AppStore; removed)
CineXPlayer – The best way to enjoy your Xvid movies By NXP Software B.V. 2.1 (nonsupported format)
Also to add to your list, on iOS 4 the iPod app can play 1080p. You can't actually sync 1080p content on, but if you use home sharing it'll play it back no problem.

On that note, what's the status on home sharing in iOS 5?

sally456
Oct 13, 2011, 04:29 AM
WOW, seems cool!
And just read the iOS 5 200 new features, the ability to play 1080p vids really makes me exciting! Then maybe I don't need to do so much converting with iFunia. Maybe could make the Apple TV to be a HTV centre. That's so great!

eziggy3
Jan 10, 2012, 12:17 PM
And before someone asks, NO the current Apple TV (v2) will probably never support output (i.e. playback) of 1080p content. Same for the iPhone 4 and the original iPad (v1). This is most likely a technical limitation, not some conspiracy by Apple to artificially limit playback to 720p in order to get you to upgrade to the newest products.

Furthermore, even though the original iPad, the iPhone 4, and the current Apple TV CAN decode some 1080p content it has been reported that the playback of such content is not without flaws.

In fact, I'd be overjoyed even if the ATV2 supported scaled playback of 720p content so that you could output at 1080i/1080p (some of the older HD-ready TVs do not support 720p30 playback). The original Apple TV allowed those output resolutions even though it could only decode 720p24 content.

Some jailbroken ATVs are already playing 1080p so it is not a hardware issue.

----------

Doubtful

I have a 63" plasma and the difference between 720p and 1080p is noticeable.

BillyBobBongo
Jan 10, 2012, 12:20 PM
All good progress.. though most of the time I couldn't tell a 720p from a 1080.. yes, my sight is that bad :(

Most people can't, unless you get real close to the screen.

MagnusVonMagnum
Jan 11, 2012, 04:07 PM
Some jailbroken ATVs are already playing 1080p so it is not a hardware issue.

Can you post a link that proves this? I've never heard it was even capable of 1080p on the hardware level, just playing 1080p files at 720p resolution.

Yes, Gen 1 ATV can output 1080p if you have the CrystalHD card and run Linux with XBMC on the machine instead of OSX/ATV interface. But that's not the same as jailbreaking Gen2 and somehow getting 1080p out of it instead of just 720p.

FearNo1
Jan 11, 2012, 04:30 PM
So the innovative apple is finally catching up with the times...nice ;)

thenerdal
Jan 11, 2012, 04:33 PM
So the innovative apple is finally catching up with the times...nice ;)

Except 4K Resolution is what the hype is all about now. :p

FearNo1
Jan 11, 2012, 04:41 PM
Yeah but I doubt that will ever catch on. We are reaching the point of diminishing marginal utility with display tech

Except 4K Resolution is what the hype is all about now. :p

thenerdal
Jan 11, 2012, 04:48 PM
Yeah but I doubt that will ever catch on. We are reaching the point of diminishing marginal utility with display tech

Probably, probably not. It all depends on the size of the screen, the distance, and your eyes. + the bitrate of the content, how it got filmed, etc.