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MacRumors
Jun 9, 2011, 05:17 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/09/no-itunes-in-the-cloud-for-united-kingdom-until-2012/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/06/iTunes-Logo.jpg

Music licensing agreements will keep iTunes In The Cloud and iTunes Match (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/06/itunes-in-the-cloud-with-itunes-match-24-99year-matches-ripped-tunes-offers-them-in-the-cloud/) out of the hands of UK iTunes users until "at least" the first quarter of next year according to a spokesman for the Performing Right Society, a UK-based organization that represents composers, songwriters and music publishers in that country.

Quoted in The Telegraph, that spokesman said (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/8565587/Apples-iTunes-in-iCloud-wont-launch-in-the-UK-this-year.html) negotiations with Apple were in a "very early stage," and that parties were "a long way off from any deals being signed." A music executive at a major UK record label said "no one expects to see the cloud music service live on this side of the pond until 2012."

Vice president and research director at Forrester Research told The Telegraph "the UK arms of all the major record labels are biding their time and waiting to see how the service affects download sales in the US before they sign up to anything."

The wait for iTunes In The Cloud will be similar in other international countries. For comparison, it took 8 months for the iTunes Music Store to go international after it launched in the United States in October 2003. iTunes Stores in France, Germany and the United Kingdom opened in June 2004 with a further EU expansion following in October of that year.

Article Link: No 'iTunes In The Cloud' for United Kingdom Until 2012 (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/09/no-itunes-in-the-cloud-for-united-kingdom-until-2012/)



constantsnags!
Jun 9, 2011, 05:20 PM
Lame indeed. Once again the UK lags behind everyone in just about everything. Glad I emigrated.

La Porta
Jun 9, 2011, 05:20 PM
...let the "this is such BS" etc. rants from the Europeans start...

scottparker999
Jun 9, 2011, 05:22 PM
...let the "this is such BS" etc. rants from the Europeans start...

And rightly so? Why can't apple negotiate in several countries concurrently?

nlr
Jun 9, 2011, 05:23 PM
I want to be able to stream music like spotify :(

Sabenth
Jun 9, 2011, 05:23 PM
...let the "this is such BS" etc. rants from the Europeans start... not a rant but i would assume that apple had the right frame of mind too inform the lables what they were planning. Then again the labels can be picky swines

yetanotherdave
Jun 9, 2011, 05:23 PM
OMG SOMEONE IN A DIFFERENT GEOGRAPHICAL LOCATION WANTS TO LISTEN TO MUSIC! STOP THEM!

These are the same companies that have signed the deal in the US. It's this sort of crap that got the record companies in the position they're in. The US gets stuff 6 months to a year before the rest of the world, or course people download stuff illegally, they want to see it before the spoilers are all over the internet! There's no logic in not being able to watch or listen to something because of a border.

MOFS
Jun 9, 2011, 05:24 PM
...let the "this is such BS" etc. rants from the Europeans start...

And it isn't? Worryingly, Apple's treatment of it's non-US customers appears to be better than some other companies. - Google hasn't released Google Voice or Music or Books in the UK, and I can't remember if the Zune even reached these shores (although some might argue that was a blessing in disguise :p).

yetanotherdave
Jun 9, 2011, 05:24 PM
I want to be able to stream music like spotify :(

If you're in London there's nothing stopping you!
The US gets pandora and netflix and hulu, I don't understand why everyone's so jealous of spotify.

bpeeps
Jun 9, 2011, 05:25 PM
And rightly so? Why can't apple negotiate in several countries concurrently?

Money, they need to make sure it is a viable service in the states first. An international launch for a brand new product could be a disaster if it fails.

stevearm
Jun 9, 2011, 05:26 PM
...let the "this is such BS" etc. rants from the Europeans start...

You expect Europeans to just smile at this news? :rolleyes:

singhjeet29
Jun 9, 2011, 05:26 PM
Canada, please oh please don't lag behind the US for a year or 3 like the iTunes store or Netflix.

I really would love iTunes Match!

Shoesy
Jun 9, 2011, 05:28 PM
Maybe we will get tv rentals at the same time.

Phil A.
Jun 9, 2011, 05:29 PM
OMG SOMEONE IN A DIFFERENT GEOGRAPHICAL LOCATION WANTS TO LISTEN TO MUSIC! STOP THEM!

These are the same companies that have signed the deal in the US. It's this sort of crap that got the record companies in the position they're in. The US gets stuff 6 months to a year before the rest of the world, or course people download stuff illegally, they want to see it before the spoilers are all over the internet! There's no logic in not being able to watch or listen to something because of a border.

Excellent post - it really is a crazy situation but I guess nothing the record companies do should come as a surprise any more!

Kebabselector
Jun 9, 2011, 05:29 PM
Then again the labels can be picky swines

Pretty much sums up the UK record industry.

chimpboy74
Jun 9, 2011, 05:30 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Quite simply: Balls.

bilbo--baggins
Jun 9, 2011, 05:32 PM
Thick bar stewards. They should be grateful for everything Apple has done for the music industry and jump on board eagerly.

BLACKFRIDAY
Jun 9, 2011, 05:32 PM
Good Lord.

These record companies haven't changed a little. Kill 'em all.

iKennett
Jun 9, 2011, 05:32 PM
Typical UK crap.... The whole music industry needs a quick in the balls anyway.

NutsNGum
Jun 9, 2011, 05:33 PM
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I couldn't care less about it ever reaching the UK, this is probably one of the most boring things I've heard from Apple. I'll happily pay the tenner a month for Spotify to listen to what I want, and I'll use dropbox for my documents. Don't see the big deal with this at all.

baryon
Jun 9, 2011, 05:33 PM
Oh well, we can wait a few months I guess!

tann
Jun 9, 2011, 05:35 PM
I don't think it'd affect music sales much??? :s

As long as everyone doesn't start illegally obtaining their music then itunes matching it in order to get the legal copies I don't see why much would change. If anything I'd have though CD sales might climb slightly so people can have a hard nicely cased copy AND have a itunes copy for $25 a year!

Ulf1103
Jun 9, 2011, 05:35 PM
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I hope all the other functions will be available for the rest of Europe.
'Cause I'm from Belgium.

And waiting iTunes in the cloud, I can live whit that, not whit the rest.

Project
Jun 9, 2011, 05:35 PM
Anyone know how to convert a UK iTunes account to US?

ChristianJapan
Jun 9, 2011, 05:35 PM
Similar in Japan where we got Movies in iTunes not soo long ago. Seeing the marketing slide and after that the reality is often very disappointing.
I never really understand why I'm not allowed to get Simpsons in Japan via iTunes or Hulu. IP blocked. Stupid. As long my credit card is charged they should be happy to have paying customers. But what I know :mad:

La Porta
Jun 9, 2011, 05:36 PM
Heck, I know that it would suck if I had to wait for the service, but this happens EVERY time a new service comes out...it's nothing new. US first, then elsewhere...no doubt due to laws, etc, and the negotiations being easier being a US-based company. I'm not saying it's fair, I'm just saying it's not like you don't know it's coming.

roadbloc
Jun 9, 2011, 05:37 PM
Spotify wins I'm afraid.

newagemac
Jun 9, 2011, 05:38 PM
And rightly so? Why can't apple negotiate in several countries concurrently?

From the article you supposedly just read:

Vice president and research director at Forrester Research told The Telegraph "the UK arms of all the major record labels are biding their time and waiting to see how the service affects download sales in the US before they sign up to anything."

BLACKFRIDAY
Jun 9, 2011, 05:38 PM
Spotify wins I'm afraid.

Are we talking about a competition over here?

Why do people need to insert: A wins, B wins comments in every single thread?

toddybody
Jun 9, 2011, 05:38 PM
Total Rubbish

newfoundglory
Jun 9, 2011, 05:42 PM
The UK music industry hasn't got a clue. Let them go on dragging their heels while people go on stealing music. Something about cake and eating it too?

nagromme
Jun 9, 2011, 05:42 PM
Wait and see “how it will affect sales”?

Does this mean they actually think that a profitably large number of people buy a song, want it on another device too, and then pay for it AGAIN there, rather than face the hassle of synching it over? Thus, super-easy synching would be bad for sales? And making music simpler would not be good for sales?

Or is it really just the iTunes Match part that worries them? Do they think CD-rippers and music pirates are tech-savvy enough to get a song onto their computer, but not enough to manage the automatic transfer of that music to their other devices? And will therefore pay for the song on each device as a last resort? Thus, again, super-easy synching would be bad for sales? And getting $25/year from that strange pirate is worse than getting $0?

ThunderSkunk
Jun 9, 2011, 05:44 PM
Ha! Thats what ya get for colonizing India...

Loge
Jun 9, 2011, 05:44 PM
Presumably the same goes then for downloading of past music purchases. Not good.

jon1987
Jun 9, 2011, 05:44 PM
I'd say the UK music industry is quite possibly the b**tard child of a thousand maniacs. They play the true devils game!

This Frood is not impressed!!

roadbloc
Jun 9, 2011, 05:45 PM
Are we talking about a competition over here?

Why do people need to insert: A wins, B wins comments in every single thread?

My custom that is. As Spotify has been in the UK for many years now. Been a subscriber for many years, however looked forward to Apple's cloud offerings. It seems now, I'll be sticking to Spotify.

You must be mad if you thought I meant Spotify was going to kill of iTunes.

BLACKFRIDAY
Jun 9, 2011, 05:47 PM
My custom that is. As Spotify has been in the UK for many years now. Been a subscriber for many years, however looked forward to Apple's cloud offerings. It seems now, I'll be sticking to Spotify.

You must be mad if you thought I meant Spotify was going to kill of iTunes.

Do I care?

I just got a spotify subscription for myself.

But I guess, if that's how you roll, cool.

milo
Jun 9, 2011, 05:48 PM
And rightly so? Why can't apple negotiate in several countries concurrently?

They can try. The problem in situations like this is virtually always the labels. And it wasn't easy to get just the US contracts signed, once it's running and successful in the US, that gives Apple more leverage to bring it to the rest of the world.

paulbeattie87
Jun 9, 2011, 05:51 PM
For me this sums up the music industry as a whole. Too worried and scared about the impact of something innovative that they sit still. Only making things worse for themselves. Still they pull stunts like this but still want the Government to take action on file sharing etc.

hsotnicam8002
Jun 9, 2011, 05:51 PM
Bl*&dy typical! Stone-age Britain hits the pan again! How did we ever get to be the 6th largest economy in the world? Oh well, back to file-sharing and flook the record companies!

Shoesy
Jun 9, 2011, 05:52 PM
They can try. The problem in situations like this is virtually always the labels. And it wasn't easy to get just the US contracts signed, once it's running and successful in the US, that gives Apple more leverage to bring it to the rest of the world.

Surely they are largely the same labels in the UK as the states though?

Ubuntu
Jun 9, 2011, 05:53 PM
Lame indeed. Once again the UK lags behind everyone in just about everything. Glad I emigrated.

Thank you for such an incredibly silly comment. I laughed.

hismikeness
Jun 9, 2011, 05:53 PM
All this talk about inequality amongst (and because of) borders makes me think. I think that maybe the money and licensing have most to do with this, but Apple has the rest of the blame. I would imagine that a full worldwide release, occurring concurrently across several continents, of anything, even if it is digital, has got to be quite an undertaking, and certainly is very difficult. Even when the licensing issues aren't standing in the way, and the release is of a device (iPhone 4 and iPads are good examples), they give themselves 2 weeks buffer before the rest of the world starts getting it. And we saw with iPad 2 how well only two weeks worked. They release in America first because, after all, they are an American company.

So, basically suck it Europe. Asia. Wherever. You'll get it when you get it. Remember though, mostly, the hold up is because someone wants to get rich off of it first with licensing, etc.

"I feel no sense of entitlement because I'm American and get a digital service before anyone else in the world gets it. Um, so what? Further, if something as popular world wide were to be released, something on a grander scale than the popularity of Apple devices (can't think of many things) and Europe got it first, I wouldn't whine about it, nor defend it if someone told me to shut up about it," says hismikeness (who just wrote a long-ish post about it).

At its core, this isn't even an equality issue. Because, there's a lot of humans that have more to worry about than when the next gadget will be around. Like how to get flies off their eyeballs. Well, they can suck it too. Maybe one day they'll have pre-foaming hand soap like we do in America. Ughhhhh.

I mean really...

hismikeness
Jun 9, 2011, 05:56 PM
They can try. The problem in situations like this is virtually always the labels. And it wasn't easy to get just the US contracts signed, once it's running and successful in the US, that gives Apple more leverage to bring it to the rest of the world.

That's the smartest comment on here.

jon1987
Jun 9, 2011, 06:01 PM
...let the "this is such BS" etc. rants from the Europeans start...

Surely we got the right to be at least a little upset about it. No one likes to wait.

627874654
Jun 9, 2011, 06:03 PM
Japan delayed too, I guess.

MartiNZ
Jun 9, 2011, 06:08 PM
Still waiting to get TV episodes on the NZ store, I doubt we'll ever get either those or this streaming/matching stuff now.

One thing I was wondering about the iTunes match is if they don't have some of your music, will they ask if you want to upload it to the cloud? I recall Steve saying years ago the intention was to have every piece of music ever written up on the store, and it would be a nice touch if Apple offered to pirate your music that they didn't have :D.

OllyW
Jun 9, 2011, 06:09 PM
It's not a surprise, many of us had already predicted something like this would happen, even before the keynote had revealed exactly what we were going to get. Of course Apple is always going to concentrate on it's home market and by all accounts only managed to get the last of the US labels on board at the eleventh hour.

The UK usually gets the deal with the second batch of countries to come on line. At least it should be trouble free by the time we get it after our American friends have been kind enough to bug test it and iron out all the problems for the rest of the world. :)

TWGirl
Jun 9, 2011, 06:16 PM
Try Hong Kong/ China, which still doesn't have music, now that is lagging!

La Porta
Jun 9, 2011, 06:16 PM
Surely we got the right to be at least a little upset about it. No one likes to wait.

That's fair, it's just some people come off like "what in the world???" when this happens every single time they launch a service. There is nothing new and surprising about it, it should be expected.

jon1987
Jun 9, 2011, 06:17 PM
One thing I was wondering about the iTunes match is if they don't have some of your music, will they ask if you want to upload it to the cloud? I recall Steve saying years ago the intention was to have every piece of music ever written up on the store, and it would be a nice touch if Apple offered to pirate your music that they didn't have :D.


Yes you can upload the stuff they don't have, apple have said this already.

Not really classed as pirating though... Lol

dashiel
Jun 9, 2011, 06:19 PM
Said it before, I’ll say it again –*this is just rats leaving the sinking ship. Label execs know the music industry is dead, they’re just grabbing as much money as humanly possible before the end.

bushido
Jun 9, 2011, 06:22 PM
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do u think i'll be able to use a 25$ itunes gift card to use it on my US account for the match payment or will it require payment with a us credit card?

if that does indeed work, i see no problem using it on my US account here in germany

mack120
Jun 9, 2011, 06:24 PM
The thing that annoys me is they obviously knew this at the time of the keynote. Why didn't they just say USA today and rest of the world to follow, or 2012.
This keynote was very strange anyway. Nothing was released at it? IOS 5 in the fall, Lion in July, iCloud also in the fall.

The mobile me has been a debacle as no official word and people charged for it up until the weekend before the Keynote??

Mack120

Hawkeye411
Jun 9, 2011, 06:26 PM
Probably be 2022 before it's alowed in Canada. Lmao.

MartiNZ
Jun 9, 2011, 06:26 PM
Yes you can upload the stuff they don't have, apple have said this already.

Not really classed as pirating though... Lol

Oh right, that's cool - and would they then be able to offer those down to others via Match? I find it kind of amusing even if it isn't piracy exactly :).

All assuming, of course, that people have their tags in order eh! We could end them up with a lot of duplication just by messing things up....

JabbaII
Jun 9, 2011, 06:28 PM
Japan delayed too, I guess.

Just don't see Sony Japan using iTunes anytime soon. They have their own music store in Japan and are trying to compete with Apple both hardware (walkman/smartphone) and software (music store).

MartiNZ
Jun 9, 2011, 06:28 PM
The thing that annoys me is they obviously knew this at the time of the keynote. Why didn't they just say USA today and rest of the world to follow, or 2012.
This keynote was very strange anyway. Nothing was released at it? IOS 5 in the fall, Lion in July, iCloud also in the fall.

The mobile me has been a debacle as no official word and people charged for it up until the weekend before the Keynote??

Mack120

I think it's almost a given at this point, I certainly assumed that it would be US only to start - hey even amazon mp3 is still US only. The iPhone took a year to get beyond that; anything that requires their negotiating with other, notoriously difficult, organisations, is going to start US only pretty much :(.

BornAgainMac
Jun 9, 2011, 06:34 PM
Oh, I bet someone says this over there after hearing this news....

"Bloody Hell!"

iEvolution
Jun 9, 2011, 06:36 PM
LOL @ them waiting to see how it effects sales. Really fail to see how it affects sales because the main function involves already purchased content.

Ridiculous, feel bad for the UKers here.

iEvolution
Jun 9, 2011, 06:37 PM
The thing that annoys me is they obviously knew this at the time of the keynote. Why didn't they just say USA today and rest of the world to follow, or 2012.
This keynote was very strange anyway. Nothing was released at it? IOS 5 in the fall, Lion in July, iCloud also in the fall.

The mobile me has been a debacle as no official word and people charged for it up until the weekend before the Keynote??

Mack120

Its typical apple man, they never mention any "fall backs" or negatives in the keynotes.

Bluethree
Jun 9, 2011, 06:38 PM
Same old story will Apple UK - crap & substandard ATV 2 services and now crap and substandard iCloud service. :mad:

firestarter
Jun 9, 2011, 06:38 PM
Yes, this pretty much sucks - but it's no surprise at all.

Of all the iCloud elements, it's the part of the service that has the least value (presumably we do get iCloud app storage?), although it would be a 'nice to have'. I'd quite like access to all my music all the time, even when my iPhone can only carry a small proportion of it.

What really sucks is how we're still missing good third party movie streaming to iDevices. I wish LoveFilm would pull their finger out, or Netflix would come over here.

Bluethree
Jun 9, 2011, 06:39 PM
Oh, I bet someone says this over there after hearing this news....

"Bloody Hell!"

May I be the first..... "Bloody hell my old china !" :eek:

John.B
Jun 9, 2011, 06:42 PM
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How can this be *anyone's* fault but Apple's?

/sarc

Bluethree
Jun 9, 2011, 06:43 PM
That's fair, it's just some people come off like "what in the world???" when this happens every single time they launch a service. There is nothing new and surprising about it, it should be expected.


Maybe you should look at the state of ATV 2 in the UK and compare the uber streaming product to the USA services available then you will see why "they" get so peeved. Apple is a repeat offender on things like this here without a record of necessarily putting it right a la ATV 2 + 18 months from launch.

LukeHarrison
Jun 9, 2011, 06:44 PM
Oh, I bet someone says this over there after hearing this news....

"Bloody Hell!"

The phrase you're looking for is, "Oh, bollocks!" :p

wovel
Jun 9, 2011, 06:44 PM
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How on earth do you think this Apples fault. He said they started recently,'it may well have been simultaneous.

John.B
Jun 9, 2011, 06:46 PM
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...let the "this is such BS" etc. rants from the Europeans start...

And rightly so? Why can't apple negotiate in several countries concurrently?

Why can't other countries give up their sovereignty to make deals with record companies easier?

/sarc

ablack774
Jun 9, 2011, 06:46 PM
I wouldn't listen to the Performing Rights Society, they will as usual be completely clueless as to what they are doing.

It would surprise me however if it was delayed, I hate the music labels.

OllyW
Jun 9, 2011, 06:48 PM
Maybe you should look at the state of ATV 2 in the UK and compare the uber streaming product to the USA services available then you will see why "they" get so peeved. Apple is a repeat offender on things like this here without a record of necessarily putting it right a la ATV 2 + 18 months from launch.

I know the ATV 2 is a bit of a waste of space over here but it was launched 9 months ago, not 18. :p

Bluethree
Jun 9, 2011, 06:50 PM
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Why can't other countries give up their sovereignty to make deals with record companies easier?

/sarc

I thought you Yanks were actively engaged in forcing many countries to do that ? ;););) :D:cool:

Bluethree
Jun 9, 2011, 06:51 PM
I know the ATV 2 is a bit of a waste of space over here but it was launched 9 months ago, not 18. :p

I stand corrected :o ..still sits there and looks good ( I tell myself) but that is about it unless you go to the dark side of course ! :eek:

mack120
Jun 9, 2011, 06:54 PM
I know the options on the ATV2 aren't great but are you having other problems with it??

i bought mine in San Fran, earlier this year. When it works its fine but i dont know weather its the ATV2 dropping the wifi of my BT hub?? Its a pain in the ass resetting the passwords all the time. We are moving in a few weeks so hoping for a better reception.

wovel
Jun 9, 2011, 06:54 PM
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Yes you can upload whatever they don't have.

G4DP
Jun 9, 2011, 06:55 PM
The PRS are a waste of paper.

The fault lies on both sides. There is no 'British Record Industry' anymore. All of the major labels are massive multi-nationals. If both sides had wanted too, they could have sat down and done the deals all at once. Both sides were probably just being stubborn.

Yes the record companies can be stubborn, only to get the best deal for themselves and clients, it's what anyone would expect them to do. If it was the other way around and Apple were holding out for more money you lot would be cheering them on from the roof tops.

G4DP
Jun 9, 2011, 06:56 PM
I know the options on the ATV2 aren't great but are you having other problems with it??

i bought mine in San Fran, earlier this year. When it works its fine but i dont know weather its the ATV2 dropping the wifi of my BT hub?? Its a pain in the ass resetting the passwords all the time. We are moving in a few weeks so hoping for a better reception.

Mack, it's not the ATV, it's the crappy sub-standard home hub. Ours drops wireless signal to my wife's MacBook Pro all the time.

OllyW
Jun 9, 2011, 06:56 PM
I stand corrected :o ..still sits there and looks good ( I tell myself) but that is about it unless you go to the dark side of course ! :eek:

I've got a 160GB 1st Gen and that was pretty naff until I Patchsticked it. :)

JTToft
Jun 9, 2011, 06:56 PM
Well, I can't say I'm surprised... Even movies on the iTunes Store is a joke in many countries. I Denmark, there is exactly one movie on the store - and that is a documentary on The Beatles!

The record companies and the film studios (and Apple for that matter) really need to get their act together if they expect people to continue buying their stuff. Purchasing content legally should not be this difficult!

ablack774
Jun 9, 2011, 06:58 PM
Same old story will Apple UK - crap & substandard ATV 2 services and now crap and substandard iCloud service. :mad:

Not only the services that put people off, it was also the price.
$99 = £101, How does that work? If they had made ATV say £79 it would have made more sence.

Lets face it we always get a raw deal if you dont live in the US. You get less services, for more money (yes, i understand it can be more expensive for shipping). But hey the stuff looks damn good!

Bluethree
Jun 9, 2011, 06:58 PM
I know the options on the ATV2 aren't great but are you having other problems with it??

i bought mine in San Fran, earlier this year. When it works its fine but i dont know weather its the ATV2 dropping the wifi of my BT hub?? Its a pain in the ass resetting the passwords all the time. We are moving in a few weeks so hoping for a better reception.

Funny I bought mine in my favourite Pasadena CA store and havent had real issues. Had to get a additional access point in for the airplay stuff which is cool and the Youtube can be flaky but that aside no other "technical problems". Lack of content ( I can blame Apple) this far down the line is my main grudge and having to stream from a MAC running iTunes ( the buyer knew) is the other. Hopefully the Time Machines v Home NAS type rumours will come to fruition on the latter.

Levity
Jun 9, 2011, 07:00 PM
Lame indeed. Once again the UK lags behind everyone in just about everything. Glad I emigrated.

Great, Jonathan Ive's coming home, I'll take that exchange any-day. That's what's great about Britain, all the useless people leave for good.

Bluethree
Jun 9, 2011, 07:02 PM
Not only the services that put people off, it was also the price.
$99 = £101, How does that work? If they had made ATV say £79 it would have made more sence.

Lets face it we always get a raw deal if you dont live in the US. You get less services, for more money (yes, i understand it can be more expensive for shipping). But hey the stuff looks damn good!

Yes bright and shiny should be a recognised medical condition on the NHS ! :p

Price is defo an issue in the UK in the context of what you get against things like Western Digital Live etc at 2/3 price. That said the medical condition still forced me to part with my cash. :o

Bluethree
Jun 9, 2011, 07:03 PM
Just don't tell our colonial cousins that we are getting such a good deal on OSX Lion :p:apple::D

AdeFowler
Jun 9, 2011, 07:06 PM
Totally expected. No worries though, it'll work properly by the time we get it. Who knows, my old AC/DC albums might even get updated ;)

ablack774
Jun 9, 2011, 07:06 PM
Yes bright and shiny should be a recognised medical condition on the NHS ! :p

Price is defo an issue in the UK in the context of what you get against things like Western Digital Live etc at 2/3 price. That said the medical condition still forced me to part with my cash. :o

I think its called Compulsive Apple Product Hoarding.

RossMacca
Jun 9, 2011, 07:14 PM
What's a United Kingdom?

bushido
Jun 9, 2011, 07:18 PM
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no biggy if u can use iTunes Match with a US Giftcard ... i hope

aery
Jun 9, 2011, 07:22 PM
Canada, please oh please don't lag behind the US for a year or 3 like the iTunes store or Netflix.

I really would love iTunes Match!

I'm really looking forward to iTunes Match as well. Hopefully it doesn't take too long to reach us in the North :)

shurcooL
Jun 9, 2011, 07:23 PM
I'm really looking forward to iTunes Match as well. Hopefully it doesn't take too long to reach us in the North :)
I don't care about iTunes Match, but I do want iTunes in the Cloud in Canada asap!

res1233
Jun 9, 2011, 07:24 PM
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Europeans complain too much. Do you see Americans bitching about not having spotify? Not so much. Why? Because in America we don't have the same feeling of entitlement that has been plaguing Europe for decades, although it's a growing problem in the states too, to a much lesser extent.

bushido
Jun 9, 2011, 07:31 PM
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Europeans complain too much. Do you see Americans bitching about not having spotify? Not so much. Why? Because in America we don't have the same feeling of entitlement that has been plaguing Europe for decades, although it's a growing problem in the states too, to a much lesser extent.

thats cuz ur too busy bitching about race issues with each other to this day ;)

comparing spodify which is barely avb in any european countries to apple is crazy

Roessnakhan
Jun 9, 2011, 07:35 PM
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Europeans complain too much. Do you see Americans bitching about not having spotify? Not so much. Why? Because in America we don't have the same feeling of entitlement that has been plaguing Europe for decades, although it's a growing problem in the states too, to a much lesser extent.

Perhaps I listen to too many tech podcasts, but I definitely hear a lot of complaints about Spotify (or equivalent) not being in the US.

unlinked
Jun 9, 2011, 07:42 PM
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Europeans complain too much. Do you see Americans bitching about not having spotify? Not so much. Why? Because in America we don't have the same feeling of entitlement that has been plaguing Europe for decades, although it's a growing problem in the states too, to a much lesser extent.

I have seen plenty of Americans complaining about the cheap drugs in Canada and more than plenty of American software developers complaining about cheap Indian devs.

Bluethree
Jun 9, 2011, 07:42 PM
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Europeans complain too much. Do you see Americans bitching about not having spotify? Not so much. Why? Because in America we don't have the same feeling of entitlement that has been plaguing Europe for decades, although it's a growing problem in the states too, to a much lesser extent.

Feck me Ted ( as a famous Irish TV priest once said) are you serious ? If Apple sells the products over here then they should include the same level of love and goodness. Thank you anyway for your kind words and thoughts :eek:

OllyW
Jun 9, 2011, 07:43 PM
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Europeans complain too much. Do you see Americans bitching about not having spotify? Not so much. Why? Because in America we don't have the same feeling of entitlement that has been plaguing Europe for decades, although it's a growing problem in the states too, to a much lesser extent.

You lot had a right old moan (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=713720) when iOS 3 was released with MMS & Tethering but you couldn't get it in the USA. :p

Bluethree
Jun 9, 2011, 07:47 PM
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Europeans complain too much. Do you see Americans bitching about not having spotify? Not so much. Why? Because in America we don't have the same feeling of entitlement that has been plaguing Europe for decades, although it's a growing problem in the states too, to a much lesser extent.

And just to stop you complaining about your entitlement to the institution that is Father Ted and not getting it in your oasis of plenty....

Have some..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Bn0wFvEJow&feature=player_detailpage

deadkennedy
Jun 9, 2011, 07:52 PM
icloud.co.uk selling for 5.600.000.000 Deutsch Marks

aristotle
Jun 9, 2011, 08:03 PM
Care factor zero about the UK. What about Canada? I care more about Canada getting the re-download feature for purchased music than iTunes Match.

johnnyjibbs
Jun 9, 2011, 08:04 PM
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What gives? Music industry: lame and backwards as usual... Who suffers? The consumer...

Bluethree
Jun 9, 2011, 08:12 PM
And just to stop you complaining about your entitlement to the institution that is Father Ted and not getting it in your oasis of plenty....

Have some..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Bn0wFvEJow&feature=player_detailpage

You lot had a right old moan (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=713720) when iOS 3 was released with MMS & Tethering but you couldn't get it in the USA. :p

The empire strikes back :p

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/oscars/2010/05/21/empirestrikes.jpg

maisey
Jun 9, 2011, 08:57 PM
As much as i love a bit of 'label bashing', you have to remember that its still the way LOTS of artists make money.

Musicians still deserve/NEED to be paid for their music and it seems for the meantime the PRS are FIGHTING for the best deal they can get for musicians! The PRS and PPL and mostly the Musicians Union, in the UK, are all there to help musicians get what they deserve in royalties payments and the correct treatment from the industry.

Personally, i say good on them for letting the US test the water with this system. We've already got spotify anyway :D

anjonjp
Jun 9, 2011, 09:00 PM
And rightly so? Why can't apple negotiate in several countries concurrently?

Exactly right. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I wonder what the Apple Teams in each region actually do!

ja5en
Jun 9, 2011, 09:16 PM
Try Hong Kong ... super advanced City/SAR, almost 8m people... no itunes music store at all, and not even a hint of one – let alone iCloud. Come to think of it, there is only a couple of physical music shops ... it's almost like promoting piracy.

I do indeed wonder what the regional Apple team do here. Probably, trawling around Wanchai looking for knock-off iPads .. and CDs.

I would love to be able to purchase music from iTunes ..

koobcamuk
Jun 9, 2011, 09:16 PM
Ha! Thats what ya get for colonizing India...

More like "that's what you get for allowing America to have independence"

jonnysods
Jun 9, 2011, 09:17 PM
I'm going to assume that this is the labels fault.

I wonder if Apple target the US so that the other countries swoon when they see the money that everyone makes?

koobcamuk
Jun 9, 2011, 09:19 PM
Great, Jonathan Ive's coming home, I'll take that exchange any-day. That's what's great about Britain, all the useless people leave for good.

People like you are why I left the UK.

lilcosco08
Jun 9, 2011, 09:47 PM
Lame indeed. Once again the UK lags behind everyone in just about everything. Glad I emigrated.

*Ahem* Duke Nukem Forever

MattInOz
Jun 9, 2011, 10:08 PM
As much as i love a bit of 'label bashing', you have to remember that its still the way LOTS of artists make money.

Musicians still deserve/NEED to be paid for their music and it seems for the meantime the PRS are FIGHTING for the best deal they can get for musicians! The PRS and PPL and mostly the Musicians Union, in the UK, are all there to help musicians get what they deserve in royalties payments and the correct treatment from the industry.

Personally, i say good on them for letting the US test the water with this system. We've already got spotify anyway :D

Given the history of the recording industry generally it's a long bow to draw to suggest they are doing this for the artists, well music artists that is. It's probably about protecting executive salaries, they are artists of another kind.

314631
Jun 9, 2011, 10:14 PM
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What gives? Music industry: lame and backwards as usual... Who suffers? The consumer...

The consumer has been pirating and stealing the works of the creative industry for a decade. It's the creative industry that has been suffering. All the hard work done to lobby and held thieves accountable for their actions could be undone if this deal is as open to abuse as some think it is. All for a large short-term payment? You cannot blame those in important overseas markets from staying well away from this service.

dawnrazor
Jun 9, 2011, 11:08 PM
Not surprised by this at all to be honest...

Jacquear
Jun 9, 2011, 11:13 PM
Sounds like this will never happen for Aust/NZ.... Stupid Govts etc
Apple please make this happen (same with iBooks make them work in Aust/NZ as well I don't want a Kindle)

RodThePlod
Jun 9, 2011, 11:53 PM
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This was to be expected. So we'll have to wait a few more months... It's really not the end of the world.

RTP.

TWGirl
Jun 10, 2011, 12:19 AM
Try Hong Kong ... super advanced City/SAR, almost 8m people... no itunes music store at all, and not even a hint of one – let alone iCloud. Come to think of it, there is only a couple of physical music shops ... it's almost like promoting piracy.

I do indeed wonder what the regional Apple team do here. Probably, trawling around Wanchai looking for knock-off iPads .. and CDs.

I would love to be able to purchase music from iTunes ..

Totally agree, both the music labels and Apple are missing out on a huge market! If they actually sold their devices/ music here, the piracy and grey market goods would actually decrease!

I do sometimes wonder if Apple Asia has its head so far up its collective rear, it can't hear the people asking these questions!

Sheza
Jun 10, 2011, 12:52 AM
It's just the stupid record labels and "performance arts" companies that are just too slow and too greedy.

This is so unfair :/

maxinc
Jun 10, 2011, 12:57 AM
I guess you can still upload the library, even if it may take days or weeks right?

joolze
Jun 10, 2011, 01:15 AM
Am I correct in thinking that this is just referring to the iTunes functionality of the iCloud?

All the other bits will work on launch in the UK, won't they.....?

callme
Jun 10, 2011, 01:25 AM
From the article you supposedly just read:

Vice president and research director at Forrester Research told The Telegraph "the UK arms of all the major record labels are biding their time and waiting to see how the service affects download sales in the US before they sign up to anything."

And how exactly is this going to affect download sales?
It is NOT a steeaming service, people don't get access to the full 18M tunes in iTunes for $25 a year, they only get access to the track THEY ALLREADY OWN.

People will still need to purchase tracks if they want to have them, either buy on CD or from iTunes or I suppose steal them, but either way it is not going to affect the current sales levels in a negative way.

They UK guys are greedy idiots and I for one will now stop 'buying' music until they approve the UK service.

World Citizen
Jun 10, 2011, 01:26 AM
Not only UK but also the Netherlands are left out.

I am seriously trying to get around this... There must be a way to get my account switched to a US account... lets find it...

I live in this god damn WORLD... not some stupid country!!!!!!

satkin2
Jun 10, 2011, 01:26 AM
I'm from the UK but I'm not really fussed if iTunes Match doesn't come straight away. Provided that the other elements of iCloud are made available to us that is.

iTunes Match is based upon ripping CDs, or getting music from other sources. You're going to be adding this music to your Mac/Pc first so I don't really see why you'd need iTunes Match, just wirelessly sync your iOS device and you've got the music on your device. The only time I could see you wanting to use iTunes Match is to bring music down to your iOS device when you're away from your Mac/Pc.

I accept that when you're away from your Mac/Pc for extended periods of time it could be useful, or on occasions you just want a track that isn't on your iOS device now, but that's just keeping the status quo as it currently is. It could be a nice to have, but I don't see that it would be a feature you'd use all the time and really really need.

Piggie
Jun 10, 2011, 01:28 AM
So, what's your bets for the UK?

1: iTunes match won't work in the same manner as it's going to in the U.S ?

2: Due to the record industry's greed the price get's set a lot higher than $25

3: Both!

It's amazing that they STILL don't get it.
The way these industries work is the reason people pirate stuff in the 1st place. And no one feels sorry for them.

weckart
Jun 10, 2011, 01:33 AM
I think it's almost a given at this point, I certainly assumed that it would be US only to start - hey even amazon mp3 is still US only. The iPhone took a year to get beyond that; anything that requires their negotiating with other, notoriously difficult, organisations, is going to start US only pretty much :(.

To be fair:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/browse.html?node=77197031

http://www.amazon.de/gp/browse.html?node=77195031

http://www.amazon.fr/b/?ie=UTF8&node=77196031

http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/browse.html?node=2128134051

John.B
Jun 10, 2011, 01:45 AM
As much as i love a bit of 'label bashing', you have to remember that its still the way LOTS of artists make money.

Musicians still deserve/NEED to be paid for their music and it seems for the meantime the PRS are FIGHTING for the best deal they can get for musicians! The PRS and PPL and mostly the Musicians Union, in the UK, are all there to help musicians get what they deserve in royalties payments and the correct treatment from the industry.

Personally, i say good on them for letting the US test the water with this system. We've already got spotify anyway :D
Do you have any idea how puny (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/357217/songwriters-attack-spotifys-tiny-royalties) the Spotify royalty payments are? I can't imagine any worse deal for musicians and songwriters than allowing the record companies posing as an indie streaming service to keep all the revenue and pay what amounts to almost zero royalties.

There is a great set of graphics here (http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/2010/how-much-do-music-artists-earn-online/comment-page-3/) that lay out visually how many sales or plays an artist would have generate to earn the minimum wage; 143 self-pressed CD sales or 4 million Spotify plays.

Portal83
Jun 10, 2011, 02:03 AM
I'm in Canada and in the same boat. I don't know if I should blame Apple's international subsidiaries or the local content providers, but I think we're all sick of this.

People who use iTunes are generally the people who actually are willing to pay for music. How far behind are these executives trying to hold on to charging upwards of $20 so people can listen to the 1-2 songs they actually like?

If iTunes Match can be used to legitimize pirated music, I get the resistance, but not agreeing to let us re-download music we've actually paid for is ridiculous.

PS. Why can I still not rent TV Shows on my Apple TV? I have cable but apparently someone in the chain is afraid to make extra money.

KítscheñÇinqµe
Jun 10, 2011, 02:09 AM
Well, I can't say I'm surprised... Even movies on the iTunes Store is a joke in many countries. I Denmark, there is exactly one movie on the store - and that is a documentary on The Beatles!
or the beatles are still more popular than ijesus...

Loge
Jun 10, 2011, 02:23 AM
To be fair:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/browse.html?node=77197031

http://www.amazon.de/gp/browse.html?node=77195031

http://www.amazon.fr/b/?ie=UTF8&node=77196031

http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/browse.html?node=2128134051


Probably was meaning the Amazon Cloud player which is US only at present. At least "officially".

Scrumper
Jun 10, 2011, 02:36 AM
...let the "this is such BS" etc. rants from the Europeans start...

Quite aside from the fact that Europeans have every right to be a little miffed if such a delay is true; can you imagine the overwhelming avalanche of rants, moans, vulgarities and "let's nuke 'em" comments that would ensue following a rumour that Americans had to wait for something that Europe had first? It doesn't bear thinking about. :rolleyes:

twilson
Jun 10, 2011, 02:47 AM
Vice president and research director at Forrester Research told The Telegraph "the UK arms of all the major record labels are biding their time and waiting to see how the service affects download sales in the US before they sign up to anything."

Further proof that the music industry STILL doesn't get it. They need to realise that the internet is an "adapt or die" arena.

By NOT embracing this service it will, however unjustified, do nothing to stem the tide of illegally downloaded music.

Idiots!

Probably was meaning the Amazon Cloud player which is US only at present. At least "officially".

I assume the officially in quotes is because it's only official as far as Amazon are concerned. The rights holders do not believe Amazon have a license to do this :P

I'm in Canada and in the same boat. I don't know if I should blame Apple's international subsidiaries or the local content providers, but I think we're all sick of this.

You blame the local content providers, as it is them who have the final say.

stringent
Jun 10, 2011, 02:48 AM
Quite aside from the fact that Europeans have every right to be a little miffed if such a delay is true; can you imagine the overwhelming avalanche of rants, moans, vulgarities and "let's nuke 'em" comments that would ensue following a rumour that Americans had to wait for something that Europe had first? It doesn't bear thinking about. :rolleyes:

Didn't we (Europe) get Thor before the Americans? :)

Formul
Jun 10, 2011, 02:53 AM
yeah ... at least you HAVE iTunes and you WILL get Music Match, i'm not even dreaming about this stuff anymore over here in czech

bushido
Jun 10, 2011, 02:54 AM
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just get an US account ... takes like 2 minutes

rmwebs
Jun 10, 2011, 02:57 AM
Oh, I bet someone says this over there after hearing this news....

"Bloody Hell!"

It was more of a "oh for f---s sake....not again!" from me ;)

Try not to make yourself look like a dummy with the stereotypical comments next time... ;)

nzlucas
Jun 10, 2011, 03:18 AM
I think the music labels feel they are protecting their (and they will claim their artists) interests but all it does is show they are stale and still refuse to in-brace the internet still after all this time.

PhilipOrr
Jun 10, 2011, 03:19 AM
There is also another problem that persists with this kind of embarkation. The amount of internet of traffic needed to allow this whole system to flow smoothly.

You see the size of the North Carolina data centre that Apple has built, to help serve the huge amount of data. These kind of facilities will need to be built around the globe to help spread the load globally. Whether Apple goes ahead and builds their own or rents space is yet to be seen, but it will surely will be needed.

These will all take time to implement.

shaunp
Jun 10, 2011, 03:19 AM
Did anyone expect anything different? Even if Apple bought the record companies someone in Brussels would manage to get their red tape machine out just because they can.

Oh well, at least it's sunny outside .... I can use my MB Pro out there and get a headache from the reflections on the screen. ;)

PhilipOrr
Jun 10, 2011, 03:24 AM
just get an US account ... takes like 2 minutes

. . . and buy your US iTunes cards online. We do that to get US only shows and early release movies, books and some apps. Does mean that the US government are getting sales tax rather than the UK. But serves them right.

appletastic
Jun 10, 2011, 03:34 AM
iCloud as far as I can see is just somewhere online that stores your music. This then pushes it all to your iOS devices.

I don't see how this will have any effect on sales of music as it only moves the storage of songs, nothing else.

Now we're lucky in the UK because we have Spotify - simply the best music service available. Apple have missed a trick in my opinion, as everyone knows streaming is the way to go. Why even bother owning music when you can just stream whatever you want whenever you want...

As soon as the guys in USA get Spotify you'll be raving about it it blows iTunes and iCloud out of the water.. and is beautifully implemented on the iPhone and Mac, just a shame there is no ipad app.

moseleyite
Jun 10, 2011, 03:48 AM
More like "that's what you get for allowing America to have independence"

Allowing? I'm pretty sure we didn't have a say in the matter.:D

fabian9
Jun 10, 2011, 03:55 AM
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Not only UK but also the Netherlands are left out.

I am seriously trying to get around this... There must be a way to get my account switched to a US account... lets find it...

I live in this god damn WORLD... not some stupid country!!!!!!

Simple. Buy a US iTunes gift card in eBay, go into your iTunes accout and click on change country, enter a US address and use the gift card to prove you're in the US. I've done it, but you then don't jaw access to your European app and music purchases anymore... So I have now simply created a new US iTunes account using the same approach. Wether it'll work with iTunes match or not remains to be seen...

WMP
Jun 10, 2011, 04:00 AM
Hi,

I just thought I'd throw in a thought as someone who works full time in the music industry in the UK. I think the job the PRS do is fantastic, they pay me my money, and no they're not perfect but I literally couldn't earn a living or run a business without them, and I wouldn't want to move anywhere else to work in the music industry because they are one of the best collection agencies around. I'll admit, music negotiations and legal contracts could be a lot simpler but the PRS have musicians and composers best interests at heart and they are only trying to earn their members the money that should be paid to them.

(This is my first post by the way so please be nice) :)

Kelmon
Jun 10, 2011, 04:04 AM
In general the smartest comment that I can post on this subject is "meh". I can see that iTunes In The Cloud would be handy but with the advent of wireless syncing I don't think that it will have that much of an impact on me. In the case of iTunes Match, I'm honestly not that interested in paying a subscription fee just so that I can access my music on a device I haven't synced yet. It's going to be easy enough to wirelessly sync (in theory, at least) and I'm still going to have to take responsibility for backing up my music unless I fancy paying $24.99 every year until I get bored of my music.

Frankly, the only point I can see in iTunes Match is if through using it I can legally sell all my CDs and still listen to that ripped music (which I doubt). That way at least I could recoup some of the fees involved.

stefmesman
Jun 10, 2011, 04:08 AM
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Seriously, i think apple should up their game. They dont even sell an atv2 here because we dont have hulu or netflix or any kind of such a service.

Reason077
Jun 10, 2011, 04:13 AM
Lame indeed. Once again the UK lags behind everyone in just about everything. Glad I emigrated.

Are you kidding? The UK (and several other European countries) already have Spotify, which is better than the upcoming iTunes cloud service - you don't need to have purchased tracks previously to stream them. Spotify's client is even a faster and (arguably) better music player than iTunes!

I wouldn't be surprised if Spotify hasn't already made a pretty big impact on iTunes' market share in the countries that it operates. It's very, very good.

Mike Oxard
Jun 10, 2011, 04:23 AM
Why do artists need record labels? Can't they just record their music and put it on iTunes without the need for a label to take a cut?

GoodWatch
Jun 10, 2011, 04:25 AM
...let the "this is such BS" etc. rants from the Europeans start...

...let the condescending drivel from the non-Europeans stop...

BlackMangoTree
Jun 10, 2011, 04:35 AM
I guess Australia wont have it either. Australia 200 years behind the rest of the world.

aegisdesign
Jun 10, 2011, 04:42 AM
Lame indeed. Once again the UK lags behind everyone in just about everything. Glad I emigrated.

We who remain are too. :D

tech3475
Jun 10, 2011, 04:49 AM
The media industries seems to be run by dinosaurs who keep failing to adapt to the modern era.

In theory this service could be better than rivals who don't pay the music industry anything (from what I've heard), so they are losing out.

Steve121178
Jun 10, 2011, 04:53 AM
Lame indeed. Once again the UK lags behind everyone in just about everything. Glad I emigrated.

Yeah because the first thing I worry about when choosing a location to live is the availability of software updates...

jowie
Jun 10, 2011, 04:55 AM
The longer they leave it, the longer competing services such as Spotify and Mflow will get a strong hold on the market. Typical of the music industry to drag their heels... Idiots.

VulchR
Jun 10, 2011, 04:59 AM
A worker asks for a reasonable wage and the reply is 'You have global competition, so we can get away with paying you low wages'.

The worker asks then why executives get paid such high salaries and the reply is 'The global competition for recruiting executives is high, so we have to pay them a fortune.'

The UK consumer asks why the can't have all the features of iCloud for music (already paid for) and the reply is 'Because there are national boundaries'.

Steve121178
Jun 10, 2011, 05:10 AM
Bl*&dy typical! Stone-age Britain hits the pan again! How did we ever get to be the 6th largest economy in the world? Oh well, back to file-sharing and flook the record companies!

You are getting this upset over software? Quite frankly, it doesn't matter. Just have some patients.

Look on the bright side, at least if a natural disaster like Hurricane Katrina occurred on our shores, we wouldn't just ignore it and pretend it never happened.

farleysmaster
Jun 10, 2011, 05:15 AM
Headline: No 'iTunes In The Cloud' for United Kingdom Until 2012

Story: The wait for iTunes In The Cloud will be similar in other international countries.

Jist: No 'iTunes in the cloud' for the rest of the world until 2012

Despite all the valid complaints about the PRS and the British record industry, it's the same problems everywhere!

P.s. love the phrase 'international countries'

NightFox
Jun 10, 2011, 05:18 AM
...This keynote was very strange anyway. Nothing was released at it? IOS 5 in the fall, Lion in July, iCloud also in the fall.
Mack120

But don't forget that despite the hype and expectation this is actually a developers event. All of the things you mentioned were released to developers on the same day.

JoJack82
Jun 10, 2011, 05:20 AM
Probably be 2022 before it's alowed in Canada. Lmao.

The CRTC probably won't allow it until Apple agrees to convert 30% of your uploaded music to Nickelback and Celine Dion songs.

Canadian Content laws are stupid. They slow down new technologies and services from coming to our country.

onetoescape
Jun 10, 2011, 05:23 AM
. . . and buy your US iTunes cards online. We do that to get US only shows and early release movies, books and some apps. Does mean that the US government are getting sales tax rather than the UK. But serves them right.

Can someone tell me how to do this? Would like to download some tv shows on in the states.

NightFox
Jun 10, 2011, 05:23 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; de-de) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

just get an US account ... takes like 2 minutes

I read somewhere in the last few days (sorry, can't remember where) that Apple were going to clamp down on this - something along the lines of 'locking' your iTunes authorised devices to an iTunes account - if you changed to an account in a different country you couldn't change back for several months. Something along those lines anyway, hopefully someone else can be a bit more specific?

arkitect
Jun 10, 2011, 05:24 AM
Bl*&dy typical! Stone-age Britain hits the pan again!
Oh come now, don't be so harsh. ;) Everyone outside Planet You-Es-Eh is affected.

How did we ever get to be the 6th largest economy in the world?
By shrinking from being 1st largest? :confused:
But that was a long time ago.

Oh well, back to file-sharing and flook the record companies!
There is never an excuse for piracy.

You are getting this upset over software? Quite frankly, it doesn't matter.
+1

Just have some patients.
That'd be nice. ;) Rich ones are even better. :p


Look on the bright side, at least if a natural disaster like Hurricane Katrina occurred on our shores, we wouldn't just ignore it and pretend it never happened.
But only after we've put the kettle on.

nicky0
Jun 10, 2011, 05:25 AM
Doesn't matter, the UK has Spotify. I'd rather have Spotify over iTitC any day.

farleysmaster
Jun 10, 2011, 05:26 AM
Do you have any idea how puny (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/357217/songwriters-attack-spotifys-tiny-royalties) the Spotify royalty payments are? I can't imagine any worse deal for musicians and songwriters than allowing the record companies posing as an indie streaming service to keep all the revenue and pay what amounts to almost zero royalties.

There is a great set of graphics here (http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/2010/how-much-do-music-artists-earn-online/comment-page-3/) that lay out visually how many sales or plays an artist would have generate to earn the minimum wage; 143 self-pressed CD sales or 4 million Spotify plays.

But how does it compare to Radio royalties, and does anyone (i.e. your average artist) make money off of PRS royalties anyway? How does it convert to purchases vs the difficulty of selling self-pressed CDs without promotion?

How much easier is the distribution of your work to an audience as an independent artist, than getting a record deal where the royalties go towards paying your debts to the label?

Aren't artists making the majority of their money off t-shirts and tickets, anyway?

I don't know the answers, but it's clearly far from simple.

The Phazer
Jun 10, 2011, 05:30 AM
The media industries seems to be run by dinosaurs who keep failing to adapt to the modern era.

Why is this PRS's fault?

PRS is primarily a union for music performers, not the labels (not saying the labels don't have massive clout and own some of those rights, but PRS is NOT just the labels). It's the primary source of revenue for most individual musicians.

There's no indication here PRS are taking an undue time to do any kind of contractual deal, which is inevitably complicated (just for a start - how does Apple plan to deliver metadata? Is is compatible with UK data protection legislation? Does it work with PRS's systems?). Even if the answer is a flat "yes, great!" from PRS, this still takes a good six months to sort out.

And Apple didn't even start asking them until the service was announced in the US. That's not PRS's fault, it's Apple's fault for being rediculously disorganised and having a corporate culture where only the US matters.

Here's a little rumour you can take from what it's worth from someone anonymous on an internet message board -

The reason Apple TV has no content outside the US is because nobody outside Cuppertino is allowed to write any code whatsoever for it. Steve personally gave an edict that he didn't want the iOS team in Cuppertino "wasting time" writing code for any services that he couldn't personally get in his house. So the international Apple teams haven't bothered approaching any content providers whatsoever, as they can't implement any deals regardless, even six months after the device went on sale.

Phazer

spooky2k
Jun 10, 2011, 05:33 AM
Money, they need to make sure it is a viable service in the states first. An international launch for a brand new product could be a disaster if it fails.

Whilst I see where you're coming from, if it was purely about money, surely the UK market would be a better place to test out a product like this (smaller market etc)? That is, unless Apple/the music industry deems USA a bunch of pirates and wants to try and convert them first? :P

That said, that's £25 of my hard earned cash not going into the music industry's pockets this year. Would gladly pay for this.

Prallethrin
Jun 10, 2011, 05:36 AM
You guys should count your blessings where I live we don't even get the iTunes music store - of course no videos either.

iTunes Match will probably never come to our shores.

The Phazer
Jun 10, 2011, 05:41 AM
But how does it compare to Radio royalties, and does anyone (i.e. your average artist) make money off of PRS royalties anyway? How does it convert to purchases vs the difficulty of selling self-pressed CDs without promotion?

The majority of average artists do make money of PRS royalties. Indeed, over time it provides the majority of retirement income to musicians.

And radio royalties historically have a lot less negative effect on sales of permanent copies that Spotify does.

How much easier is the distribution of your work to an audience as an independent artist, than getting a record deal where the royalties go towards paying your debts to the label?

It's much, much more difficult. For a start, try getting a bank loan for the money to fund recording an album for six months from a bank and see how their terms compare to a record labels. And how the bank won't do any marketing for you.

Aren't artists making the majority of their money off t-shirts and tickets, anyway?

With a few exceptions, this is a Cory Doctorow invented fabrication. It is a brilliant example of a lie being repeated enough times it becomes the truth.

Phazer

ScottishDuck
Jun 10, 2011, 05:44 AM
This is because the british legal system.

OllyW
Jun 10, 2011, 05:50 AM
This is because the british legal system.

The British legal system is restricting the launch of iTunes in the Cloud to the USA and preventing Apple from launching the service in other countries?

Ok. :rolleyes:

mikechan1234
Jun 10, 2011, 05:58 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

iTunes match not coming here until next year is not a big deal, just roll the other cloud services on time and it'll be like it never existed :-)

Westyfield2
Jun 10, 2011, 06:16 AM
Why does this not surprise me? :(

farleysmaster
Jun 10, 2011, 06:36 AM
As I say, I'm not the expert (do you have sources? Im interested in seeing what sort of incomes people get off PRS), but was wondering about this one:It's much, much more difficult. For a start, try getting a bank loan for the money to fund recording an album for six months from a bank and see how their terms compare to a record labels. And how the bank won't do any marketing for you.

How easy it to get this record deal in the first place, though. Maybe I'm thinking more about the artists that don't get that much radio play, (think Belle and Sebastian, but twice as cult). But the process of making and recording the Music is very DIY (and I expect this is getting more popular).

Re radio vs spotify, how common is it for artist getting promotion via radio play to be selling their own CDs? It's hard for me to avoid thinking that the big acts who get radio play, will likely be selling in volumes to make some royalties (or pay off their debts...) whereas no money off of no radio play is fractionally worse than almost no off spotify play (but with added promotional and distribution value) (and spotify discourages time-wasting illegal downloading).

I'm coming at this from a pragmatic point of view, though. The way the industry exists is contrived and doesn't have a lot to do with art.

tech3475
Jun 10, 2011, 06:37 AM
And Apple didn't even start asking them until the service was announced in the US. That's not PRS's fault, it's Apple's fault for being rediculously disorganised and having a corporate culture where only the US matters.


If this is true, then fair enough, since the negotiations in the US went on for some months.

The reason I called the media industries dinosaurs is because they have a habit of failing to adapt to modern situations or do so in a way which is bad for consumers e.g. DRM.

daveathall
Jun 10, 2011, 06:40 AM
Strangely, I don't feel that a void has opened up in my life. When it comes it comes. Bug free one would hope.

AaronEdwards
Jun 10, 2011, 06:48 AM
Do you have any idea how puny (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/357217/songwriters-attack-spotifys-tiny-royalties) the Spotify royalty payments are? I can't imagine any worse deal for musicians and songwriters than allowing the record companies posing as an indie streaming service to keep all the revenue and pay what amounts to almost zero royalties.

There is a great set of graphics here (http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/2010/how-much-do-music-artists-earn-online/comment-page-3/) that lay out visually how many sales or plays an artist would have generate to earn the minimum wage; 143 self-pressed CD sales or 4 million Spotify plays.

A worse deal? Need not to look any further than the deal Apple made with the record companies, if it's correct. $25/year to convert all your pirated songs into legal songs. After Apple has taken a cut, the record companies take a cut for themselves, what do you think is left for the artists?
There's little incentive now to buy any music from iTunes.

A Spotify customer in the US is most likely going to pay between $120 and $180/year for the service. If you compare that to a customer buying songs on iTunes, he or she would have to buy between 90 and 260 tracks each year to pay as much. I doubt many do that. And Spotify isn't taking a 30% cut either as Apple do.

Coastercub
Jun 10, 2011, 07:13 AM
Bum ! I guess it's only a few months to wait.. I'll survive.. :eek:

Piggie
Jun 10, 2011, 07:17 AM
I used to enjoy that old service where you could listen to cool new music all day long, ohhhh, what was it called? Oh yes I remember. Radio ;)

fat phil
Jun 10, 2011, 07:31 AM
I read somewhere in the last few days (sorry, can't remember where) that Apple were going to clamp down on this - something along the lines of 'locking' your iTunes authorised devices to an iTunes account - if you changed to an account in a different country you couldn't change back for several months. Something along those lines anyway, hopefully someone else can be a bit more specific?

I've not heard this yet, but it wouldn't surprise me (little would these days). It sounds a bit draconian though - I've several friends who move around from country to country, doubt they'd be happy with this arrangement.

Here I have a UK account and my wife has a US account - I can see things getting complicated...

jacobj
Jun 10, 2011, 08:09 AM
...let the "this is such BS" etc. rants from the Europeans start...


I am a European and my reponse is: Apple is a US company and prioritises US services. They supply the UK and Europe and that is good for us. We live in a region with different laws and companies and therefore have to be handled seperately. Therefore, this is what it is. If I was hearing that Apple does not intend to bring the service to Europe, then I would rant. Thanks for assuming that we would all rant though and you did it in such a supercilious manner as well.

lfc
Jun 10, 2011, 08:11 AM
A worse deal? Need not to look any further than the deal Apple made with the record companies, if it's correct. $25/year to convert all your pirated songs into legal songs. After Apple has taken a cut, the record companies take a cut for themselves, what do you think is left for the artists?
There's little incentive now to buy any music from iTunes.

If the songs were pirated in the first place, then those people aren't going go to and buy it on iTunes... So in the end, this is earning artists money that they otherwise wouldn't of received due to piracy.

yorkslad
Jun 10, 2011, 08:27 AM
Pretty much sums up the UK record industry.

Should have had lunch with Simon Cowell

yorkslad
Jun 10, 2011, 08:33 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Europeans complain too much. Do you see Americans bitching about not having spotify? Not so much. Why? Because in America we don't have the same feeling of entitlement that has been plaguing Europe for decades, although it's a growing problem in the states too, to a much lesser extent.

No if Americans want something they just do ANYTHING other than talking to get it

John.B
Jun 10, 2011, 08:37 AM
Quite aside from the fact that Europeans have every right to be a little miffed if such a delay is true; can you imagine the overwhelming avalanche of rants, moans, vulgarities and "let's nuke 'em" comments that would ensue following a rumour that Americans had to wait for something that Europe had first? It doesn't bear thinking about. :rolleyes:
You mean like WiFi hotspots and tethering? :p

callme
Jun 10, 2011, 08:40 AM
I'm from the UK but I'm not really fussed if iTunes Match doesn't come straight away. Provided that the other elements of iCloud are made available to us that is.

iTunes Match is based upon ripping CDs, or getting music from other sources. You're going to be adding this music to your Mac/Pc first so I don't really see why you'd need iTunes Match, just wirelessly sync your iOS device and you've got the music on your device. The only time I could see you wanting to use iTunes Match is to bring music down to your iOS device when you're away from your Mac/Pc.

I accept that when you're away from your Mac/Pc for extended periods of time it could be useful, or on occasions you just want a track that isn't on your iOS device now, but that's just keeping the status quo as it currently is. It could be a nice to have, but I don't see that it would be a feature you'd use all the time and really really need.

It is not just the iTunes Match part that will be missing.
You will not be able to download your purchased items on other devices or have them sync automatically to all your devices when you purchase something new. You will also not be able to redownload music that you have already purchased. Quite an omission from the standard iCloud service.

AaronEdwards
Jun 10, 2011, 08:42 AM
If the songs were pirated in the first place, then those people aren't going go to and buy it on iTunes... So in the end, this is earning artists money that they otherwise wouldn't of received due to piracy.

It's earning them nothing. $25/year for 20,000 pirated songs. Do the math.

Spotify on the other hand doesn't convert illegal files to legal files for yearly fee.
Instead they remove the incentive for pirating, if you can have easy access to 13 million songs, why would you need to pirate anything?
Apple, on the other hand, is refusing to move to the future. No wonder why, they are making billions from people buying songs. So they are stuck in the past.

callme
Jun 10, 2011, 08:43 AM
You are getting this upset over software? Quite frankly, it doesn't matter. Just have some patients.

Look on the bright side, at least if a natural disaster like Hurricane Katrina occurred on our shores, we wouldn't just ignore it and pretend it never happened.

Just have some patience.

John.B
Jun 10, 2011, 08:43 AM
A Spotify customer in the US is most likely going to pay between $120 and $180/year for the service. If you compare that to a customer buying songs on iTunes, he or she would have to buy between 90 and 260 tracks each year to pay as much. I doubt many do that.
Out of that $120 to $180 a year, how much do the songwriters and musicians get paid? Almost exactly zero, small enough of a rounding error to call zero anyway.

And Spotify isn't taking a 30% cut either as Apple do.
30%?!?!? Spotify is taking almost 100%!!!!! :mad:

Spotify is just a way for the labels (yes, it's owned in large part by the labels) to tap into music streaming revenue without paying songwriters and musicians anything (http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/2010/how-much-do-music-artists-earn-online/comment-page-3/).

Hey, use Spotify all you want, I dont' care, but you are deluding yourself if you think any of that money goes to artists/musicians.

NightFox
Jun 10, 2011, 08:58 AM
... $25/year to convert all your pirated songs into legal songs.

Why do people keep spouting this rubbish? In what way does swapping your pirated MP3 for an AAC version make the AAC legal? Even if you claim that the iTunes matched version served up for you by iCloud is a different 'thing', you still pirated the original in the first place and obtained the iTunes version dishonestly. It's not as if Apple are going to provide you with a receipt saying you paid for them.

If I launder 100 pirated songs through this service, the music industry doesn't lose any extra money beyond me pirating them in the first place, and I still obtained whatever versions of the songs I end up with through piracy.

blow45
Jun 10, 2011, 09:21 AM
What aBout the rest of Europe?

bushido
Jun 10, 2011, 10:04 AM
It's not as if Apple are going to provide you with a receipt saying you paid for them.


the iTunes Songs have a "purchase" date burnt inside them which u can access tho

cmp
Jun 10, 2011, 10:33 AM
It's earning them nothing. $25/year for 20,000 pirated songs. Do the math.

If the labels had even the tiniest iota of sense they would pull out of itunes altogether en masse. Redesign the model supplying 96k 24 bit wavs and charge £1.50 per song (singles available separately only) £10 for an album. And tell Jobs he can have 10% or do one. Then we might just get some music that is worth listening to.

Porco
Jun 10, 2011, 10:58 AM
When I buy music online (which is still in the minority) I tend to buy from 7Digital.com, who I've often found both cheaper and higher quality (choice of MP3 or AAC at 320kbps). Not as nice an interface as the iTunes store, but I can deal with that.

The Apple iTunes Match deal looks like a decent enough way to get iTunes versions of your ripped CDs in the cloud, and I might consider it when it gets here, but in terms of being able to re-download past purchases what Apple is offering is not really anything new. Except for Apple and people who exclusively use iTunes for their music I guess.

I never really took to Spotify... if I want to listen to a random track YouTube will usually suffice, I didn't like the way Spotify connected to a zillion servers, and I didn't like how little artists get from it. And then they limited the free service. so... meh, IMHO it isn't the perfect service many make it out to be. But good luck to those that enjoy it, I hope they manage to come up with a more sustainable and successful model that everyone likes.

As for the record companies - they're just plain weird. Apple is trying to give them more money again, and they are still scared and want to take baby steps. What professional musical artists must make of the people who take a large chunk of the money they earn for managing the promotion and distribution of their music, I really don't know. But if I had a record contract I don't think I'd be very impressed with them.

Jack97
Jun 10, 2011, 11:26 AM
Thanks a lot Apple.

joseph2166
Jun 10, 2011, 11:28 AM
Why does this not surprise me? :(

I dunno, you'd have to answer that question yourself.

JGowan
Jun 10, 2011, 11:36 AM
If I launder 100 pirated songs through this service, the music industry doesn't lose any extra money beyond me pirating them in the first place, and I still obtained whatever versions of the songs I end up with through piracy. True -- the good thing is that the labels finally get something for the pirated music. 70% of $30 is better than nothing. Especially with the amount of customers who will likely join up.

Ugh --- Thanks a lot Apple.How is this Apple's fault?! Don't you think they want the UK market? Negotions take time. Cool jets.

Apple is not going to move on this until it's seemless like it is in the US market. Without 100% approval from the UK labels, Apple has to stay put. Apple started the music store April 28, 2003, with only 200,000 — that's 8 years ago. It has taken a long time just to get this thing going ANYWHERE...

2012 is not that long of a wait when you consider everything. I waited longer than that every year just for a new Lord of the Rings movie. Those were long 12 months. This Hobbit thing is killing me. :D

vartanarsen
Jun 10, 2011, 11:55 AM
Lame indeed. Once again the UK lags behind everyone in just about everything. Glad I emigrated.

lags behind???
Being from the US, i can say that UK definitely beats us in many respects..
1. Consitutional Monarchy (I would love to have a Prince William & Kate)
2. TRUE universal healthcare for all
3. People are more polite and distinguished culturally compared to obnixiousUS

There are more, but those come to my mind.....I wish we did not declare independence against King George III

farleysmaster
Jun 10, 2011, 12:11 PM
lags behind???
Being from the US, i can say that UK definitely beats us in many respects..
1. Consitutional Monarchy (I would love to have a Prince William & Kate)
3. People are more polite and distinguished culturally compared to obnixiousUS


With respect to 1: What!?
With respect to 3: People are pretty much the same everywhere. Although you might be thinking of Canada.

In fact I think all your points apply to Canada...

Madonepro
Jun 10, 2011, 01:50 PM
Anyone know how to convert a UK iTunes account to US?

Move :D

Pretty much sums up the UK record industry.

It is annoying that the industry that has so benefited with what Apple (et al) have done bites the hand that feeds it.

Without these online stores, much more music would be 'shared' and the record label loses out.

spacemanspifff
Jun 10, 2011, 03:00 PM
OH NO!!! What will I ever do now... no iTunes in the cloud in the UK until next year... My life is over, this is soooo... [Places back of hand on forehead] Oh I think I'll just have to go ki... ...hang on a minute. I can just use the cable that I've been using for the last 4 years to get my music on my phone! I can probably use the new wireless sync too in iOS 5 when that comes out.

I have to say iTunes in the cloud is something that I would never use. Its not a service, its a convenience and a crap one at that. I really don't think its a pain to do a local sync and anyway, my phone doesn't have the room to store any more songs, so I wouldn't be able or even want to download a track from the cloud when I'm out and about - seriously - who would. I mean yeah, it might be nice to be able to do it, but I cant think of an example where it would be useful to actually do it. Now, if it was a streaming service then that would be a different matter. Maybe it will evolve into one in the future?

Also, all the people who say - "Blah, blah.. its the record companies, they should sort it out, they would at least be getting some money from the pirates, with Apples $25/year."

I say this... If you didn't pay for the music in the first place, you're hardly likely to pay Apple $25 just to have access to music which you can already access for free now are you?

iTunes in the cloud meh... hey Apple, you got anything else?

AaronEdwards
Jun 10, 2011, 03:43 PM
Out of that $120 to $180 a year, how much do the songwriters and musicians get paid? Almost exactly zero, small enough of a rounding error to call zero anyway.


30%?!?!? Spotify is taking almost 100%!!!!! :mad:

Spotify is just a way for the labels (yes, it's owned in large part by the labels) to tap into music streaming revenue without paying songwriters and musicians anything (http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/2010/how-much-do-music-artists-earn-online/comment-page-3/).

Hey, use Spotify all you want, I dont' care, but you are deluding yourself if you think any of that money goes to artists/musicians.

It's not zero, but it's smaller for obvious reasons, iTunes Store are paying once, when you buy the song, streaming services, adds upp everytime you listen to the song.

About profit, and what the artist is getting paid.

Apple is taking 30%. So from a $0.99 song, Apple gets 30 cents, and the artist gets 9 cents. Apple is getting 300% of what the artist is getting, they are making billions from iTunes Store sales.

Spotify are actually losing money right now. It has to do with their agreement with the record companies, they are paying as much for a free, ad-supported, user listening to a song as for someone with a paid Spotify subscription. That's why Spotify has decided to remove the original free, invite only, option, and seriously cut down on Spotify Open, the other free option.
With less free user, each artist will be paid more for each play, so I'm not sure that the image is correct about the current payout for Spotify.

Also, per the image, from the money that reaches the record companies, the artists are getting a bigger share from Spotify, 20%, than from iTunes, 12.5%. So you're wrong about where the record companies are tapping into the revenue...

John.B
Jun 10, 2011, 03:52 PM
It's not zero, but it's smaller for obvious reasons, iTunes Store are paying once, when you buy the song, streaming services, adds upp everytime you listen to the song.

About profit, and what the artist is getting paid.

Apple is taking 30%. So from a $0.99 song, Apple gets 30 cents, and the artist gets 9 cents. Apple is getting 300% of what the artist is getting, they are making billions from iTunes Store sales.

Spotify are actually losing money right now. It has to do with their agreement with the record companies, they are paying as much for a free, ad-supported, user listening to a song as for someone with a paid Spotify subscription. That's why Spotify has decided to remove the original free, invite only, option, and seriously cut down on Spotify Open, the other free option.
With less free user, each artist will be paid more for each play, so I'm not sure that the image is correct about the current payout for Spotify.

Also, per the image, from the money that reaches the record companies, the artists are getting a bigger share from Spotify, 20%, than from iTunes, 12.5%. So you're wrong about where the record companies are tapping into the revenue...
The problem isn't in the percentages (which can be rigged to say anything), the problems is in the orders of magnitude.

You would have to listen to that song 3104 times on Spotify before the artist made the same nine cents as they would get from the iTunes sale.

For a 3 minute song, that amounts to 155 hours and 12 minutes of listening time of the same song for nine cents of artist revenue.

The problem with Spotify is that generates the appearance of an above-board operation when in reality it is no better than stealing from the artist, in that it pays them nothing.

As I said before, I don't care whether or not you listen to Spotify, but don't assume the artist is getting anything from the deal.

AaronEdwards
Jun 10, 2011, 04:25 PM
The problem isn't in the percentages (which can be rigged to say anything), the problems is in the orders of magnitude.

You would have to listen to that song 3104 times on Spotify before the artist made the same nine cents as they would get from the iTunes sale.

For a 3 minute song, that amounts to 155 hours and 12 minutes of listening time of the same song for nine cents of artist revenue.

The problem with Spotify is that generates the appearance of an above-board operation when in reality it is no better than stealing from the artist, in that it pays them nothing.

As I said before, I don't care whether or not you listen to Spotify, but don't assume the artist is getting anything from the deal.

I'm rather curious about your math. Buying one $0.99 song on iTunes gives the artist 9 cents. One person, listening to one song on Spotify, according to the image, gives the artist 0.043 cents. Now divide 9 cents by 0.043. That's 209.

If you can't understand the difference between paying per stream and paying for a purchase and why the first one is smaller, I can't help you. Or if your math skills mean that you have a problem adding up smaller numbers.

But one thing is clear, Spotify isn't trying to get the 30% Apple wants.

Edit:

In what way can the percentages be rigged that regular numbers can't? Is the image your touting rigging the percentages? Should we just trust the parts that you like?

Edit 2:
Also, the Spotify numbers are sourced from a link from Basca (http://www.basca.org.uk/public-affairs/basca-briefings/april-2010/) that can be found anymore and from 'industry sources'. You're complaining about that percentages can be rigged, but you're trusting these numbers that you can't check?

Edit 3:
Here's a reply from Spotify (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/7590782/Spotify-rejects-claims-that-it-rips-off-artists.html) about those numbers.

Hardtimes
Jun 10, 2011, 05:01 PM
This is why I always download any music I like for free, and post/paypal money to any artist I enjoy directly.

I refuse to give money to this vermin.

AaronEdwards
Jun 10, 2011, 05:21 PM
And Spotify have now signed a deal with Universal (http://allthingsd.com/20110610/spotify-signs-universal-music-may-really-get-to-the-u-s-after-all/). It now looks like they are coming to the US before Apple can launch in Europe.

yourstation
Jun 10, 2011, 07:18 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

In the UK we have just got season one of the Simpsons on iTunes. Pathetic!

hexonxonx
Jun 11, 2011, 03:18 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

In the UK we have just got season one of the Simpsons on iTunes. Pathetic!

In about 22 years, you should be caught up, :)

Piggie
Jun 11, 2011, 06:02 AM
Here's an idea.

The record company pays the artist a wage for producing music, and creating music if their job. Just like your job may be in IT or Manufacturing, or Car sales, or management.
You get paid a wage and you go your job. You stop working and you stop getting paid.

You get paid to design a hammer, someone else gets paid to make the hammer.
They don't then sit back for the rest of their lives getting paid money every time someone uses their hammer do they?

Perhaps music should be free to the world, but the artist gets paid a wage, like other industries to come to work, write music, play music, and once they have been paid their wage that's it.

Why should artists even think that in their retirement they should still be getting money given to them for some work they did in their 20's ?

They stop working, and stop producing new music then they stop getting paid, just the same as how everyone else works and gets paid for their work.

I don't get paid for work I did decades ago, and I don't expect you do either.

OllyW
Jun 11, 2011, 06:27 AM
Perhaps music should be free to the world, but the artist gets paid a wage, like other industries to come to work, write music, play music, and once they have been paid their wage that's it.

If the music is free, who is going to pay the wage?

arkitect
Jun 11, 2011, 06:38 AM
The record company pays the artist a wage for producing music, and creating music if their job.

Because that is exactly how creativity works.
Yup fine idea there… :rolleyes:

I would add a facepalm but I can't be bothered.

Radoo
Jun 11, 2011, 07:14 AM
Oh no! iTunes in the Cloud not this year!!! :D Some countries get only iTunes AppStore, no music or movies download... Think about that!:rolleyes:

Piggie
Jun 11, 2011, 07:19 AM
Because that is exactly how creativity works.
Yup fine idea there… :rolleyes:

I would add a facepalm but I can't be bothered.

That how advertising agency's work though it's it?
They get pad money to be creative and come up with ideas.

They don't expect to be paid year after year for their old work, they have to become better all the time and compete with others for their work so they can get money for more creativity.

arkitect
Jun 11, 2011, 07:23 AM
That how advertising agency's work though it's it?
They get pad money to be creative and come up with ideas.

They don't expect to be paid year after year for their old work, they have to become better all the time and compete with others for their work so they can get money for more creativity.

Just a wild guess, but you're not an accountant by any chance?

Piggie
Jun 11, 2011, 08:01 AM
Just a wild guess, but you're not an accountant by any chance?

It's just funny how things have worked out and the whole system of doing something creative and then sitting on your arse for the rest of your life, if you were successful decades ago, seem's to have become accepted.

There is no reason for things to work this way, it's just happened.

I feel sorry for game makers who work really really hard and have such a narrow window of time to make money.

ID Software who made Wolfenstein 3D, then Doom, then Quake, if they were Albums could have stopped work, knowing people would be buying their games for many many decades to come, but they have to keep working, creating new products all the time.

John.B
Jun 11, 2011, 10:50 AM
I'm rather curious about your math. Buying one $0.99 song on iTunes gives the artist 9 cents. One person, listening to one song on Spotify, according to the image, gives the artist 0.043 cents. Now divide 9 cents by 0.043. That's 209.
I'm not sure I buy your numbers, but giving those number the benefit of the doubt just for the sake of this discussion... Who listens to the same song 209 times? Even if they do, it's probably one song someone is obsessed with, and not the norm for their whole collection. And remember, that's just for the artist to get paid the 9¢ you were complaining that iTunes pays the artist when someone buys a song. Maybe its because you aren't a songwriter or musician yourself (or don't know anyone who is) but the Spotify "royalty checks" are puny enough to be laughable.

I honestly don't know why you are on such a crusade to defend Spotify's "honor" unless you somehow work for them or get paid by them. Or else you are possibly too cheap to buy 99¢ or $1.29 songs.

My original argument stands. If you hate iTunes because they don't pay the artist/songwriter enough, what Spotify pays is unquestionably an order of magnitude smaller. I think it's just because you hate iTunes (full stop) but won't actually come out and say so.

AaronEdwards
Jun 11, 2011, 11:45 AM
I'm not sure I buy your numbers, but giving those number the benefit of the doubt just for the sake of this discussion... Who listens to the same song 209 times? Even if they do, it's probably one song someone is obsessed with, and not the norm for their whole collection. And remember, that's just for the artist to get paid the 9¢ you were complaining that iTunes pays the artist when someone buys a song. Maybe its because you aren't a songwriter or musician yourself (or don't know anyone who is) but the Spotify "royalty checks" are puny enough to be laughable.

I honestly don't know why you are on such a crusade to defend Spotify's "honor" unless you somehow work for them or get paid by them. Or else you are possibly too cheap to buy 99¢ or $1.29 songs.

My original argument stands. If you hate iTunes because they don't pay the artist/songwriter enough, what Spotify pays is unquestionably an order of magnitude smaller. I think it's just because you hate iTunes (full stop) but won't actually come out and say so.

The numbers I used comes from the image your touting. Spotify has disputed those numbers. I have no clue from where you got the numbers supporting that Spotify would pay about 1/3000 of what Apple pay....

Because I prefer a streaming service like Spotify, I'm being paid by them? Is this forum filled with people enjoying Apple's products or people being paid by them?

Your original argument is built on numbers that can't be verified and that are disputed. And yet you're still touting them.

And I don't hate iTunes, I dislike parts of iTunes Match that could be easily fixed if Apple would decide to check local files for known pirated copies. It would not remove 100% of all pirated copies but it would send a signal to users not to try to upload illegal copies.

BTW, if it's an order of magnitude smaller, then that's better than what an artist gets from iTunes, unless you play a song less than ten times...

John.B
Jun 11, 2011, 12:22 PM
But how does it compare to Radio royalties, and does anyone (i.e. your average artist) make money off of PRS royalties anyway? How does it convert to purchases vs the difficulty of selling self-pressed CDs without promotion?

How much easier is the distribution of your work to an audience as an independent artist, than getting a record deal where the royalties go towards paying your debts to the label?

Aren't artists making the majority of their money off t-shirts and tickets, anyway?

I don't know the answers, but it's clearly far from simple.
The performing artist makes nothing from radio airplay in the US, only the songwriter gets paid. Ostensibly because of the fiction that "radio airplay generates album sales" which we know is not true. Fixing this resulted in the NAB (US-based National Association of Broadcasters) mounting a millions-of-dollars advertising campaign calling it a "Performance Tax" when none of the month would go to the government or be funneled through governmental agencies.

People complained because Zeppelin and Beatles weren't online, and it didn't happen until they got exclusive deals cut for them. AC/DC still only sells physical CDs because Angus did the math and realized how badly the record companies were going to rape them (his words, not mine) in that deal. It's good to be king. For the rest of us, well, not so much.

As for receipts and t-shirt sales, well, that seems to at least be working out great for the likes of the Rolling Stones and Roger Waters... LOL!

John.B
Jun 11, 2011, 12:41 PM
The numbers I used comes from the image your touting.
Dude, whatever. You claim to be using Spotify for altruistic reasons, as though the artist makes more money that way. I'm pointing out the sheer hypocrisy in that statement. "Teh maths" don't work to support that assertion, using either your numbers or mine. In fact, the numbers don't even work using Spotify's numbers.

If you'd just said you were too cheap to pay for a 99¢ song in the first place, nobody would've batted an eye at it. As far as artists getting paid for your Spotify subscription, you're about one rung above the people who pirate songs in the first place. It's just more convenient for you. Why is that so hard to admit?

Lastly, this notion that Spotify is losing money is laughable. Spotify is owned and operated in part by the labels, who are "losing money" in this venture in an effort to unseat the leverage that iTunes currently has over them, so they can make more money later on by controlling the distribution channels directly.

AaronEdwards
Jun 11, 2011, 04:36 PM
Dude, whatever. You claim to be using Spotify for altruistic reasons, as though the artist makes more money that way. I'm pointing out the sheer hypocrisy in that statement. "Teh maths" don't work to support that assertion, using either your numbers or mine. In fact, the numbers don't even work using Spotify's numbers.

If you'd just said you were too cheap to pay for a 99¢ song in the first place, nobody would've batted an eye at it. As far as artists getting paid for your Spotify subscription, you're about one rung above the people who pirate songs in the first place. It's just more convenient for you. Why is that so hard to admit?

Lastly, this notion that Spotify is losing money is laughable. Spotify is owned and operated in part by the labels, who are "losing money" in this venture in an effort to unseat the leverage that iTunes currently has over them, so they can make more money later on by controlling the distribution channels directly.

You're basing your math on one article, which sources can't be checked and which is disputed by Spotify.

Spotify are losing money:
Spotify Bleeding From Licensing Costs (http://www.businessinsider.com/spotify-needs-more-paying-subscribers-to-survive-2010-11).

The records companies, together, owns less than 20% of Spotify.

I'm paying $190/year for Spotify, which is a lot more than the average iTunes store customer is paying to buy songs.

Spotify don't get a 30% cut, that and the fact that a normal iTunes store customer doesn't buy 90 to 260 songs each year means that a growing Spotify will be a better choice for artists. Currently they have 1 million paying customers.

You're flailing, you're complaining about Spotify being owned by the record companies and a couple of sentences later you claim that people using Spotify would be one rung above pirates. Why would the record companies own such a company?

Oh. Spotify is a conspiracy against Apple. That explains it. You're worried about Apple's 30%. So sad. If you cared about the artists then you would care about the fact that Apple is getting three times as much as the artists.

caspersoong
Jun 11, 2011, 07:40 PM
Wondering when it will come to Asia.