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dumb
Jun 11, 2011, 11:29 AM
With all the talks focused on Lion's UI's and new features. I wanted to know if there were any performance improvements.

When I switched from Leopard to SL, the boot time and shutdown times were noticeably faster and overall feel was snappy.
Also, one of the difference from Leopard to SL to me was amount of free memory. SL seemingly uses more memory and does not want to

So those using Lion, is it relatively faster ?



WeegieMac
Jun 11, 2011, 11:45 AM
Lion is blazingly fast on my mid 2008 iMac.

2.4GHz Core 2 Duo and 4GB DDR2 800MHz RAM.

Safari is far quicker than it is on Snow Leopard, the loading times of web pages are blindingly quick.

However, even system UI navigation is quicker. Everything within the OS is 64-bit when you check the Activity Monitor (inc iTunes if running 10.5 beta), and it shows. Everything loads quicker, animates smoothly, and it really does just scream.

I recorded a video for a good friend who wanted to see Lion, but the YouTube link is a private one as it contains some in-jokes only he would get. Either way, his comments in return were as follows:

"You know how when you watch the keynote, and they demo the features, you think to yourself "I wish my Mac was that fast" ... well now it is"!

Even on DP4 this thing flies, which is why it's now on my internal and Snow Leopard is on my external as a "back up just in case".

dumb
Jun 11, 2011, 12:11 PM
64 Bit iTunes and blazing fast experience. Exactly what I wanted to hear.

I was feeling guilty of buying a new mac last month knowing I would not qualify for the up-to-date program..but your post will definitely make me upgrade.

Thanks

Psilocybin
Jun 11, 2011, 12:25 PM
i also find an extreme speed boost overall in lion...not just safari

BLACKFRIDAY
Jun 11, 2011, 12:29 PM
Lion is definitely faster than Snow Leopard on the same hardware.

The developer previews are still not complete; so one might find a lot of glitches. For e.g. Desktop switching is not seamless. It's not the best experience you would want to have on your machine.

But its looking better day by day. I'm sure Lion is going to be a great release.

Atarikid
Jun 11, 2011, 01:17 PM
Sorry to say but I totally disagree.
Lion feels a bit sluggish at some points. Especially graphically wise it is slower compared to SL.
Some typical OSX animations are jerky (opening folders, resizing of apps, dock animations, resizing of performance sheets, ...)

Both my Macbook Pro 2011 i7 (with SSD) and iMac i7 have this little annoyances.
Not sure if they can improve those for GM but I really hope they do!

limo79
Jun 11, 2011, 02:30 PM
You forgot about the most important factor - what about temperatures (especially bottom case) comparing OSX Leopard 10.5.8 vs OSX Snow Leopard 10.6.7 and OSX Lion 10.7 DP4??? What about battery time?

I compared OSX 10.5.8 vs OSX 10.6.7 - even if monitored temps are generally similar - Snow Leo seems to generate slightly more heat (almost the same like Windows 7 in idle). Everything seems to run faster on SL, but this is not revolution. On the other hand OSX 10.5.8 seems to require less resource. I can compare like XP vs Windows 7 on older machine.

jeanlain
Jun 11, 2011, 03:20 PM
Lion's interface is generally slower for me, and I don't think it's related to a bug in my system, as it has been affecting my 2 macs (a laptop and a tower) on independent clean installs, form DP1 to DP4.

Scrolling is worse and uses more CPU. You don't get the perfectly smooth (sustained 60 fps) scrolling you get in 10.6 with apps like Mail (viewing a message), Safari, Preview, and others. It's a bit jumpy too. I invite anyone doubting this to check with Quartz debug. The lower performance isn't surprising, as redrawing is much less parsimonious in Lion compared to Snow Leopard (also checked with Quartz Debug).

Resizing is also a bit less smooth, at times. For instance, if you activate the new sorting options in a Finder, resizing gets a bit more choppy. Same thing in the new dual-pane view in Mail. The windows resizes more fluidly in the old list view.

Yeah, I'm obsessed with scrolling and resizing. I've checking this in all DPs to see improvements (that haven't come yet).

Otherwise, Lion is generally as fast as 10.6, and much faster to boot. But it uses much more RAM. 4Gigs seems the bare minimum.

ScubaCinci
Jun 11, 2011, 03:31 PM
I was wondering about this since there was no mention of speed improvements in the keynote or elsewhere. This is good to hear.

jeanlain
Jun 11, 2011, 03:39 PM
My previous post may suggest that Lion is generally slower. The UI may be a bit slower, but some system apps have got considerably faster. Safari is indeed one of those.
It now uses hardware acceleration for HTML5 content, and it really shows. :eek:

Atarikid
Jun 11, 2011, 04:02 PM
Yeah, I'm obsessed with scrolling and resizing. I've checking this in all DPs to see improvements (that haven't come yet).


I am glad I am not the only on this. :) I too find those issue annoying and that is why I do not like Lion atm.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 11, 2011, 04:16 PM
64 Bit iTunes and blazing fast experience. Exactly what I wanted to hear.

Thanks

No more blazing that it is right now on Snow Leopard.

I have a 2011 iMac and 8gb ram and i honestly don't notice much if any improvement in speed. ON my 2007 Macbook 2gb ram it's definitely slower. 2010 MacMini 4gb ram is slower as well.

Safari 5.1 beta on Snow Leopard is just as fast as Safari Lion.

Atarikid
Jun 12, 2011, 11:04 AM
Quartz Debug)

I did a lot of testing with Quartz Debug.
The reason why Lion isn't doing well graphically wise is because of the graphic drivers for the Intel i7 build-in graphics of my MBP i7 17" aren't very good.
With the Intel build-in graphics it get around 30-40fps which isn't smooth like SL.
But when you disable the onboard Intel graphics (= enabling the fast graphics mode) you get very smooth results (60fps all the way).

So, in the end Apple needs to update the graphics drivers for the Intel graphics and it should be back on par with SL.

Fingers crossed if they will do this in time for release.

jeanlain
Jun 12, 2011, 11:48 AM
I don't have an intel GPU, and I don't think the GPU is even used for scrolling or resizing. The difference really seems related to the fact that in SN, the view isn't fully redrawn at each increment, while it is in Lion. But that depends on the windows. Some (that supposedly don't use the native scroll view) fully redraw even in 10.6, and for those, there is no difference in performance. So Quartz is inherently slower in Lion. Drawing is just less parsimonious. I've checked that on my 2 Macs with different GPUs (nVidia and AMD), so I don't think it relates to drivers.
Regarding resizing, lower performance in Lion seems to correlate with new designs (again, checked on 2 Macs). As I say above, Finder windows resize smoothly unless the new sorting options are activated in list view or column view. Show you apps in list view and sort them by category. You'll see that the window doesn't resize as smoothly as it does when apps are not sorted (sorted with the column header, as in pre-10.7, to be more precise)
Likewise, the Mail window resizes as smoothly as in 10.6 if the legacy list view is used. Not so much for the new 3-pane view.
So I suppose they haven't optimized the new designs yet, and that things will improve. But I'm a bit puzzled about the non-parsimonious scrolling mode. That looks like a regression to me.

Atarikid
Jun 12, 2011, 01:30 PM
It also seems not to switch between graphic modes when needed

Yamcha
Jun 12, 2011, 03:17 PM
I don't notice any difference, I think the animations make Lion appear faster, and If there were performance improvements I think it would've been mentioned..

kristoffers4
Jun 12, 2011, 03:29 PM
In my opinion Lion DP4 is way slower. Boot up time is a disaster! It takes over one minute now on my 2011 MBP.
My 15" core i7 MBP is now unable to play a video without stuttering, (but video becomes smooth when I force the graphics to the AMD).

But animations such as when switching desktops and going in Mission Control or Launchpad run quite smooth... And other things like flash in Safari runs like it should.

Edit: Mail seems to crash every few minutes since I registered for an @me email address.

jeanlain
Jun 12, 2011, 04:01 PM
There must be a problem with you install, because Lion boots blazingly fast here. Way faster than Snow Leopard. 15 seconds or so, and that includes reopening all windows. :eek:

Atarikid
Jun 12, 2011, 05:05 PM
There must be a problem with you install, because Lion boots blazingly fast here. Way faster than Snow Leopard. 15 seconds or so, and that includes reopening all windows. :eek:

My Macbook Pro with SSD and a Lion partition boots in less then 8 seconds.

But graphics with onboard Intel GPU is much slower compared to the dedicated graphics mode. Manually switching between those too reveals a massive differences in al-round graphics performance (window animations, scrolling, ...)
I still hope they will improve the onboard graphics mode for MBP's.

Atarikid
Jun 13, 2011, 12:46 AM
I have installed DP4 11A480e (previously I had 11A480b) and the graphics speed issues are gone. It is now on par with SL !
Everything is working very smooth now on my Macbook Pro 2011.

To download the new version:
Remove the Lion installer and download it again via App Store. You will automatically download the latest DP4 version.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 13, 2011, 09:22 PM
Lion is performing differently on all Mac's. Works well on one of my Macs are rubbish on the other 2.

Overall it doesn't seem faster at all.

Lion is full of so many bugs still i can't see how they can have a reliable version out in July.

duyvan82
Jun 14, 2011, 12:51 AM
Lion is definitely faster on my iMac (27" late 2009 model), apps opening/closing seem snappier than Snow Leopard.

However animations (scrollings/window resizing/mission control/app going to/from fullscreen) are not as smooth as they were on Snow Leopard. Safari is still quite buggy for me, especially the Top sites page, none of the previews is showing, all I get is a bunch of black/empty tiles lol.

I think Apple still have a lot to do if they are to release Lion in July, the below error message just sums it up nicely lol

wesleyh
Jun 14, 2011, 04:17 AM
You would think that opening apps would be slower, since it also opens all documents from the previous usage. Is this not the case?

dumb
Jun 14, 2011, 12:35 PM
Not having used Lion, I probably don't have the rights to say it but, Lion Cannot possibly be slower than Snow Leopard. I mean apple would not ship it as such. However, since performance was not highlighted at WWDC, I'd say its not going to be screaming fast.

Yamcha
Jun 14, 2011, 12:52 PM
Based on what everyones posting, I think people are having different performance experiences because we are still running a developer preview, I bet when it is officially released we'll see some the issues fixed..

Pressure
Jun 14, 2011, 01:23 PM
Battery life seems to be suffering under Developer Preview 4 still.

At least on my 2010 MacBook Pro.

SXR
Jun 14, 2011, 03:43 PM
Just sound good that it will run on Core 2 Duo's. I hope there will be no issues, I like Lion's new stuff :D

jeanlain
Jun 15, 2011, 02:11 AM
Not having used Lion, I probably don't have the rights to say it but, Lion Cannot possibly be slower than Snow Leopard. I mean apple would not ship it as such. However, since performance was not highlighted at WWDC, I'd say its not going to be screaming fast.
Apple shipped 10.0, and it was slow as a dog. Also, they never actually mentioned any performance increase in the following versions.

Atarikid
Jun 15, 2011, 05:52 AM
Apple shipped 10.0, and it was slow as a dog. Also, they never actually mentioned any performance increase in the following versions.

Indeed. And I am almost certain all the graphically performance issues aren't going to be resolved with the release.

Finger crossed though

dumb
Jun 15, 2011, 08:15 AM
Apple shipped 10.0, and it was slow as a dog. Also, they never actually mentioned any performance increase in the following versions.

Nice to know, I've only been following Apple since Tiger. Hope's alive...again.

Atarikid
Jun 15, 2011, 01:13 PM
Did some tests with COD4. Has about 15% less framerate and much more noticeable framedrops compared to SL.

I still think the GPU drivers for Lion (and latest MBP 2011) are not very good.
The total GUI experience is not very good (read: smooth working graphics effects).

Still keeping my fingers crossed for the initial release. You never know if it will be improved.

daneoni
Jun 15, 2011, 01:59 PM
Not having used Lion, I probably don't have the rights to say it but, Lion Cannot possibly be slower than Snow Leopard. I mean apple would not ship it as such. However, since performance was not highlighted at WWDC, I'd say its not going to be screaming fast.

It actually is. Safari is the only thing thats hands down snappier. From all i can see thus far, Lion is still in Snow Leopard's shadow in terms of speed and being fully baked. Although the latter of those two is to be expected given that it is still a preview.

As i type this i'm planning to wipe my Lion partition and head back to SL...will wait till Lion has been polished some more post-release.

jeanlain
Jun 15, 2011, 02:10 PM
I believe that performance will be tuned by 10.7.3 or something. Before that, I don't expect responsiveness and fluidity to be as good as in 10.6.7.

ajvizzgamer101
Jun 15, 2011, 09:16 PM
Lion is faster in Beta form then SL is on it's stablest form.

rick snagwell
Jun 15, 2011, 09:19 PM
Lion is faster in Beta form then SL is on it's stablest form.

agreed.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 15, 2011, 11:39 PM
Lion isn't faster on my Mac Mini or iMac

SXR
Jun 16, 2011, 03:36 AM
Lion isn't faster on my Mac Mini or iMac

Alright , but it isn't slower, right?

Hellhammer
Jun 16, 2011, 03:41 AM
We will be testing performance, battery life etc. on various Macs over at AnandTech.com so stay tuned for some real tests. The review is set to be published when the retail version is released (maybe I'm able to leak something beforehand though ;)).

Atarikid
Jun 16, 2011, 01:45 PM
We will be testing performance, battery life etc. on various Macs over at AnandTech.com so stay tuned for some real tests. The review is set to be published when the retail version is released (maybe I'm able to leak something beforehand though ;)).

Are you going to use Quartz Debugger too?
That is the only real graphics performance tool to see if it is faster/slower.
ATM it shows it is way slower compared to SL.
It is the only true evidence Lion is slower concerning graphics (animations et..) and not a personal conception of how it is performing.
OS X is all about smooth animations (show casing ;-), but with Lion and most Macbook Pros (Intel GPU) it is much slower then SL. A fact !

Atarikid
Jun 16, 2011, 01:47 PM
Alright , but it isn't slower, right?

Graphical wise it IS slower on Macbooks with the Intel onboard graphics GPU.
Animations (folders scrolling/opening, resizing windows, genie effect to dock, ...) are sometimes jerky.

Hellhammer
Jun 16, 2011, 01:56 PM
Are you going to use Quartz Debugger too?
That is the only real graphics performance tool to see if it is faster/slower.
ATM it shows it is way slower compared to SL.
It is the only true evidence Lion is slower concerning graphics (animations et..) and not a personal conception of how it is performing.
OS X is all about smooth animations (show casing ;-), but with Lion and most Macbook Pros (Intel GPU) it is much slower then SL. A fact !

I have to ask Anand about the details, he will most likely be doing the performance part. However, our goal is to of course back things up with concrete facts, not just our opinion on how it feels ;)

Atarikid
Jun 16, 2011, 02:04 PM
I have to ask Anand about the details, he will most likely be doing the performance part. However, our goal is to of course back things up with concrete facts, not just our opinion on how it feels ;)

Good to hear. :)

ErikGrim
Jun 16, 2011, 07:15 PM
Lion is definitely MUCH faster on the same hardware for me (2 27" 2010 iMacs and a MacBook). In particular running from the SSD on the iMac it just screams.

I've never had jerky animations (not even the launchpad folder opening animation that people complained about in earlier previews).

I can guarantee you that those reporting jerkiness will be due to display drivers on certain graphics cards. And I would bet you that will be fixed before release as optimising for different configurations is usually far down on the development chain.

Do fill your Mac with as much RAM as you can fit though. It's the cheapest possible way of upgrading the speed of your computer. SL and Lion eats it for breakfast.

jeanlain
Jun 17, 2011, 12:37 AM
The GPU isn't used for scrolling and resizing, so drivers can't explain why Lion is slower at these tasks. Scrolling has jus gotten less parsimonious (that is visible in Quartz Debug), and new apps are probably not completely optimized graphically-wise.

ErikGrim
Jun 17, 2011, 01:22 AM
The GPU isn't used for scrolling and resizing, so drivers can't explain why Lion is slower at these tasks. Scrolling has jus gotten less parsimonious (that is visible in Quartz Debug), and new apps are probably not completely optimized graphically-wise.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartz_Compositor#Quartz_Extreme

It does sound like it has been disabled in those cases maybe?

sinophilia
Jun 17, 2011, 01:24 AM
Lion is full of so many bugs still i can't see how they can have a reliable version out in July.

So true! I can't see them having it ready before the end of July.

Anyway, it is pretty fast on my mid-2008 iMac, in spite of the outdated graphics card. Maybe I had low expectations so it looks better than I thought! With 6GB of RAM I feel like I can wait one more year before getting a new iMac.

SXR
Jun 17, 2011, 07:36 AM
Graphical wise it IS slower on Macbooks with the Intel onboard graphics GPU.
Animations (folders scrolling/opening, resizing windows, genie effect to dock, ...) are sometimes jerky.

Oeh... Im hoping my machines will cope fine with the upgrade.

Stok3
Jun 17, 2011, 08:10 AM
Nice to know, I've only been following Apple since Tiger. Hope's alive...again.

historically every major release after 10.1 was indeed marketed as faster, among other things.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 17, 2011, 09:15 AM
The Macbook with the intergraded GMA950 performance is poor. All animations and scrolling is very jerky. Same machine Windows 7 is very smooth.

richpjr
Jun 17, 2011, 11:00 AM
How does the memory footprint of Lion compare with SL? I wonder if some of the reports of it being slower or faster are tied with the amount of RAM installed.

WeegieMac
Jun 17, 2011, 12:01 PM
I'm surprised to read the comments from some, because on my iMac running DP4 (latest update also) it absolutely flies, it's like getting a new computer.

Snow Leopard, while no slouch, is certainly not as responsive as Lion and the likes of Safari is far, far quicker than it is on Snow Leopard. The general UI navigation is also faster, with windows opening quicker, options loading faster (especially noticeable in the Settings panel when going between options), and the whole system feels so much quicker overall.

I did install Lion on my internal drive, as I found it more slugging on the USB 2.0 external drive. Instead, I partitioned my external drive and installed Snow Leopard fresh on there. From Snow Leopard I formatted my main internal drive and ran the Lion installer from within Snow Leopard, pointing the installer to my now blank 250GB internal disk. The installation was less than 20 minutes and a fresh install is the way to go in my opinion.

Even though this is (the final?) Developer Preview, I find it stable, fast, and better than Snow Leopard to the extent that I now use it primarily every day without issue.

For me, going back to Snow Leopard is hard once you're used to Lion.

My ONLY "complaint", and this could just be my system, is that the animations when going in/out of fullscreen mode on Safari, etc is a little jerky or sluggish, especially when the system has a lot going on. I found that for the Folders to open smoothly all the time, I had to move the Utilities folder onto the second page. From there, it sprung open and shut as smooth as it does on an iPhone 4 or iPad 2. Back on page one, alongside a lot of other icons, it returned to being sluggish.

Atarikid
Jun 17, 2011, 12:10 PM
I'm surprised to read the comments from some, because on my iMac running DP4 (latest update also) it absolutely flies, it's like getting a new computer.


Quartz debug isn't lying. It is a Apple devs tool that can trace graphic performance issues.
In general SL has a 60fps for all animations.
The latest Lion build has about 30-40fps.

Now, some people do not see a difference between a 60fps shooter (COD) or 30fps (Halo). I see the difference on the spot and do find Lion is not very smooth.

Atarikid
Jun 17, 2011, 12:14 PM
I can guarantee you that those reporting jerkiness will be due to display drivers on certain graphics cards. And I would bet you that will be fixed before release as optimising for different configurations is usually far down on the development chain.


Yes, I know it is a driver issue. I already said this several times. And yes, it will be addressed in future Lion updates. I know that too. But it is a pity Lion is slow on my new Macbook Pro 17 i7 2011 (the top of the Macbook line up).

@jeanlain - I really think it is a driver issue. ;-)

WeegieMac
Jun 17, 2011, 12:27 PM
Quartz debug isn't lying. It is a Apple devs tool that can trace graphic performance issues.
In general SL has a 60fps for all animations.
The latest Lion build has about 30-40fps.

Now, some people do not see a difference between a 60fps shooter (COD) or 30fps (Halo). I see the difference on the spot and do find Lion is not very smooth.

Where did I say anyone was lying?

I've not got the time or patience to argue about who's got the better eyes or whatever. I mentioned the animations of the folders opening/closing (which did improve when I moved the Utilities folder onto page 2 of Launchpad), as well as the animations going in/out of fullscreen mode on the likes of Safari, iTunes 10.5, iPhoto, Photobooth, etc.

Other than that, those little animation issues aside, it's faster than Snow Leopard on my machine, and Snow Leopard was no slouch. Note: I'm talking about performance regarding it being faster, not animations.

Again, not here to argue. People ask for opinions on this forum, no-one has to agree with any of them, but all I can do is cite my own experience.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 17, 2011, 01:01 PM
Running apps like Reason and Logic they perform worse under Lion. Lion seems to be a ram guzzler.

Atarikid
Jun 17, 2011, 01:46 PM
Again, not here to argue. People ask for opinions on this forum, no-one has to agree with any of them, but all I can do is cite my own experience.

True. :)

Mac OS X highly depends on graphical mojo. imo if that isn't smooth, the overall OS X experience is flawed for me. That is one of the reasons I do not like Windows - it is slow performing on overall GUI 'feeling'.

I also use Ableton Live and feels much slower in response. With Quartz debug it shows about 50% less faster then running it in SL. Even mouse clicks have a slight delay which is certainly noticeable if you use this app a lot. Live is also a good example why Lion is not as fast as SL concerning graphics speed.

About memory usage:
In general Lion indeed allocates more memory compared to Lion for the same app you run. But I do not think this affects speed.

jeanlain
Jun 17, 2011, 02:44 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartz_Compositor#Quartz_Extreme

It does sound like it has been disabled in those cases maybe?
Quartz extreme doesn't accelerate scrolling or resizing.
Well, it can accelerate resizing a bit, in that the background is redrawn by the GPU, but the window being resized in entirely redrawn on the CPU.

jeanlain
Jun 17, 2011, 02:47 PM
How does the memory footprint of Lion compare with SL? I wonder if some of the reports of it being slower or faster are tied with the amount of RAM installed.
Lion uses much more RAM than SL in my experience. But it's not swapping to disk, so RAM usage shouldn't explain the (moderate) performances decrease I see on my MBP.

jeanlain
Jun 18, 2011, 01:11 AM
As a good indicator of performance, play a movie in cover flow and try to resize the cover flow pane or the Finder window. See how painful that is in Lion.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 18, 2011, 01:26 AM
Apple have lots of work to do in the next few weeks to get Lion up to speed. They are better off taking their time even if it means delaying the release. When the same machine can run Windows 7 better it wont look good for Apple.

Atarikid
Jun 18, 2011, 01:33 AM
The 'big' problem with Lion is when it is doing animations, it is redrawing the full window content. Within SL in only redraws the area the needs to be redrawn. This could explain why it is slower on some graphics configurations (shared RAM).

Also, Lion uses OpenGL 3.2. My guess it is not yet optimized.

BTW still strange why Apple didn't go for OpenGL4. :-/

Atarikid
Jun 18, 2011, 01:36 AM
Apple have lots of work to do in the next few weeks to get Lion up to speed. They are better off taking their time even if it means delaying the release. When the same machine can run Windows 7 better it wont look good for Apple.

Apple is know to release 'unfinished' releases in the past. It won't hold them to do so again. :-/
I bet they will release on 1/7/2011
But I do agree they should wait 2-3 month to streamline the GUI speed for ALL GPU's. OS X is highly depended on smooth GUI operation imo

BlackMangoTree
Jun 18, 2011, 01:48 AM
The worst performers are my Mac Mini's 2009 and 2010 models, a 2007 Macbook the performance is piss poor. Shouldn't it be getting more efficient.

Probably Apples way of trying to make people to upgrade to newer hardware.

For me Windows 7 performs better than Lion or Snow Leopard on my Mini's if things are not improved i'll have no issue switching over. Might even end up switching to Windows on all my Macs. The nightmare the dock and mission control is compared to the very useable taskbar.

jeanlain
Jun 18, 2011, 02:17 AM
The 'big' problem with Lion is when it is doing animations, it is redrawing the full window content. Within SL in only redraws the area the needs to be redrawn. This could explain why it is slower on some graphics configurations (shared RAM).

Also, Lion uses OpenGL 3.2. My guess it is not yet optimized.

BTW still strange why Apple didn't go for OpenGL4. :-/
:eek: I hadn't run Quartz Debug during animations (mission control, etc). Just during scrolling. Why the Hell are windows contents being redrawn? :roll eyes:
I wonder if quartz debug reports that correctly, to be honest.
EDIT: something's fishy there. If windows were actually redrawing, their respective apps should use some CPU, and it's not the case (mission control). Only the window server uses a moderate amount of resources, as expected.

(I have asked questions about redrawing on the forum I can't speak about, and haven't got any reply).

iExpensive
Jun 18, 2011, 02:53 AM
Just installed DP4 on my base model 13" MBA.
For the most part the animations are jerky. Dock magnification is in need of major improvement. Mission controls animations are also poor but not as noticeable. Scrolling is not as enjoyable in SL, it's just not as smooth. Although overall feel of the OS is very snappy. You can definitely get to whatever you want is much quicker. That's definitely due to the added gestures, enhanced UI, and coding. If they can somehow improve the graphics performance I will gladly switch over. If not I will just stick with SL.

Draeconis
Jun 18, 2011, 11:26 AM
I've been running DP4 on my MacBookPro4,1 for a while now, runs pretty well, most animations seem smooth, though it's not consistent. Swiping between fullscreen apps and the desktop is initially jerky, but once you've done it once it works fine for a while.

Scrolling content in Safari though is really jerky, especially if it's running on battery, even though other animations are smooth, which is a little odd.

My machine reports 4h 30m battery (just had a new one installed) whereas SL on the same settings says 4h, so a minor improvement there.

It also gets 3450 in Geekbench, which is also a minor improvement over the 3400 it gets under SL.

All apps that I use work fine, apart from CCleaner, which reports an unsupported OS, then crashes, and Ableton Live, which just dies on the spot.

Two rather minor things that impressed me that haven't really been reported about much are;

Boots the 64-bit kernel by default (Leopard SL both booted to 32-bit as standard), though I guess this is because Lion's only supported on 64-bit machines (officially, anyway).

sudo diskutil repairpermissions / actually repairs permissions, rather than listing them over and over. This was a problem since Leopard, and I'm glad it's fixed.

Tucom
Jun 18, 2011, 11:27 AM
Ok so it's evident that some people are experience a *FAR* faster experiene, and some slower.

Any slower performance doesn't mean Lion is slower as on OS, just on your hardware, and the beauty of Apple making their own hardware is I think it's safe to say it'll all be worked out.

And saying it's Apples way of "getting people to upgrade their hardware" I think is just kinda beyond preposterous lol, gotta love personal vandettas? JK (I hope), Seriously though that's highly unlikely given A.) Apple I've found is all about getting all their hardware to really run as fast as possible and B.) Some users are having their machines run far faster than SL.

Tucom
Jun 18, 2011, 11:30 AM
I

All apps that I use work fine, apart from CCleaner, which reports an unsupported OS, then crashes, and Ableton Live, which just dies on the spot.


lolwut, AFAIK..CCleaner isn't on Mac lol


NVM! Just surprisingly found out that it is..wow, never knew. Gotta check it out.

EDIT: Yeah..gotta love theirs virtually no bloat for it to clean out haha, but still cool that it's on Mac, but given the efficency of the OS I kinda wonder just how useful it will be, at least for me, for one-click cleaning of all Safari and FireFox info it could be useful then?

zin
Jun 18, 2011, 11:34 AM
lolwut, AFAIK..CCleaner isn't on Mac lol


NVM! Just surprisingly found out that it is..wow, never knew. Gotta check it out.

Wow! Also just found out. :D

Draeconis
Jun 18, 2011, 11:34 AM
lolwut, AFAIK..CCleaner isn't on Mac lol


NVM! Just surprisingly found out that it is..wow, never knew. Gotta check it out.

I normally just use sudo periodic daily weekly monthly to clean my system up, but I thought I'd give CCleaner a go, seeing as I use it on all of my Windows boxes. It's still under development really, but seems promising. :)

link (http://www.piriform.com/mac/ccleaner) for lazy people. This is a beta, so use as your own caution.

Atarikid
Jun 18, 2011, 02:56 PM
Ok so it's evident that some people are experience a *FAR* faster experiene, and some slower.
Any slower performance doesn't mean Lion is slower as on OS, just on your hardware, and the beauty of Apple making their own hardware is I think it's safe to say it'll all be worked out.


Not sure. It could be the OS. I mean, if Apple now decides to refresh a full screen instead of a part of a screen, then this can result in lower graphics performance. Very probable this has a good reason why they do this but it seems to have back draws for 'not-so-fast' GPU's like Intel HD 3000 atm.


And saying it's Apples way of "getting people to upgrade their hardware" I think i

Well, I have bought a MBP 17" i7 2011 two months ago. If it doesn't run smooth on this MBP ... ..

jeanlain
Jun 19, 2011, 04:22 PM
I just browsed the App store a bit, in Lion 11A494A, and performance is appalling. Scrolling is bad, and resizing is awful. It's as bad as the iTunes store.
It wasn't that bad before, so hopefully, this will be improved.

ErikGrim
Jun 19, 2011, 11:12 PM
As a good indicator of performance, play a movie in cover flow and try to resize the cover flow pane or the Finder window. See how painful that is in Lion.

Smooth as silk on my iMac 27" using a coverflow window set to All my Files.

ErikGrim
Jun 19, 2011, 11:16 PM
BTW people. If you haven't maxed out your RAM on your computer you really really should. 16GB RAM is ~$200 these days!

jeanlain
Jun 20, 2011, 12:35 AM
Smooth as silk on my iMac 27" using a coverflow window set to All my Files.
Be sure to have a movie playing in the cover flow pane.

jeanlain
Jun 20, 2011, 12:38 AM
I just browsed the App store a bit, in Lion 11A494A, and performance is appalling. Scrolling is bad, and resizing is awful. It's as bad as the iTunes store.
It wasn't that bad before, so hopefully, this will be improved.
Ok I see that the App Store isn't much more pleasant to use in 10.6.7.
I don't get it. Safari is completely smooth on much more complex pages. Why can't they improve their Stores (iTunes + Apps)? :confused:

BlackMangoTree
Jun 20, 2011, 01:12 AM
IOS baby, the Mac OS as we once new it is finished.

It's just a cluttered mess these days. Launchpad and Mission control are the beginning of the end. The dock still is hopeless for windows management (Windows 7 TaskBar Apple should look at) Menu bar at the top of the screen not with in the application. I could go on a and on, all these things make OS X actually slower than Windows 7. Get much more work done on Windows 7 and faster.

jeanlain
Jun 20, 2011, 02:53 AM
I can't say I agree.
While I prefer the windows task bar, I generally prefer OS X. Especially for settings. Win 7 is still cluttered with text and inconsistencies all over the place. You get lost of "yes" "no" dialogues that follow 3 lines of text. Those drive me crazy.
The dock is not designed for windows management. Apple relies on mission control, which IMO, is easier than exposť as windows a grouped in apps.
The menu bar as its advantages.
Generally, OS X is certainly not slower than Win 7 on the same Mac. And Lion is a clear improvement over 10.6 in many areas. Resume and Version are incredibly cool, and will really change the way we interact with computers.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 20, 2011, 03:19 AM
Versions and resume are cool like Fonzie ?

Mission Control and Expose both are inferior to the way you can handle 10 plus windows in Windows 7. Lion the way it handles minimised windows is a joke.

There are good and minuses in both, over all Windows is better for serious work. Windows isn't in your face like OS X it moves out the way and you can concentrate using your apps.

tkermit
Jun 20, 2011, 04:24 AM
Mission Control and Expose both are inferior to the way you can handle 10 plus windows in Windows 7. Lion the way it handles minimised windows is a joke.
What I don't like about Windows' solution is that you can't preview all of your open windows at the same time as you can on OS X. It's either just taskbar previews for individual programs or a selection of mostly overlapping windows for some reason displayed in 3D that you have to scroll through. Exposť's bird's eye view seems much more useful to me. Of course, Lion goes a bit in the direction of Windows' solution with the sorting of windows by their applications, but at least we still have Application Exposť, which uses the whole screen area. If I'm honest, I really liked Panther's Exposť better than Leopard's. We'll see about Lion's.



There are good and minuses in both, over all Windows is better for serious work. Windows isn't in your face like OS X it moves out the way and you can concentrate using your apps.

Except for the very first part, you couldn't be more wrong. Just my opinion. :)

SXR
Jun 20, 2011, 04:51 AM
I can't say I agree.
While I prefer the windows task bar, I generally prefer OS X. Especially for settings. Win 7 is still cluttered with text and inconsistencies all over the place. You get lost of "yes" "no" dialogues that follow 3 lines of text. Those drive me crazy.
The dock is not designed for windows management. Apple relies on mission control, which IMO, is easier than exposť as windows a grouped in apps.
The menu bar as its advantages.
Generally, OS X is certainly not slower than Win 7 on the same Mac. And Lion is a clear improvement over 10.6 in many areas. Resume and Version are incredibly cool, and will really change the way we interact with computers.

Seconded.

mabaker
Jun 20, 2011, 05:01 AM
4Gigs seems the bare minimum.

Goog gracious. I really am ready to believe it as Mac OS X has become the epitome of a RAM hog. :(

I fear the worst for Lion.

jeanlain
Jun 20, 2011, 05:50 AM
Windows isn't in your face like OS X it moves out the way and you can concentrate using your apps.
I feel the oposite. On Windows, I frequently get a notification that "Windows" is doing this or that. I never saw a indiciation that OS X or my Mac was doing anyting. I am the one doing things on my computer.
Plus, the UAC really comes in your face. I don't see how Windows in general moves out of the way in places where OS X wouldn't.

Atarikid
Jun 20, 2011, 10:35 AM
IOS baby, the Mac OS as we once new it is finished.

It's just a cluttered mess these days. Launchpad and Mission control are the beginning of the end. The dock still is hopeless for windows management (Windows 7 TaskBar Apple should look at) Menu bar at the top of the screen not with in the application. I could go on a and on, all these things make OS X actually slower than Windows 7. Get much more work done on Windows 7 and faster.

Without beginning the Windows/OS X debat again but heu .. why are you still using OS X when you are sure Windows 7 is better?

BTW no answer needed .. its just a question you should ask yourself.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 20, 2011, 11:26 AM
Without beginning the Windows/OS X debat again but heu .. why are you still using OS X when you are sure Windows 7 is better?

BTW no answer needed .. its just a question you should ask yourself.

I do use Windows as my main OS.

I just like to keep an eye on what Apple are doing.

Right now Lion seems clunky compared to Snow Leopard. Running Lion on 2gb is poor.

ErikGrim
Jun 21, 2011, 01:46 AM
Be sure to have a movie playing in the cover flow pane.Ah. I see what you mean now. Not that that's ever going to be a common usage case :p

jeanlain
Jun 21, 2011, 03:09 AM
Resizing is hardly the issue, actually. The problem is video scaling on the CPU, and that uses a lot of power. It's usually done on the GPU. See how the Finder in coverflow, when playing a movie, uses a significant amount of resources. That's in addition to decoding, which is a separate process. That's not good for battery life.

Mad Mac Maniac
Jun 22, 2011, 03:09 PM
Right now Lion seems clunky compared to Snow Leopard. Running Lion on 2gb is poor.

Goog gracious. I really am ready to believe it as Mac OS X has become the epitome of a RAM hog. :(


Not trying to start/continue anything, but how much RAM does Win7 require to run well? Just curious, because I honestly don't know.

dumb
Jun 22, 2011, 04:59 PM
Not trying to start/continue anything, but how much RAM does Win7 require to run well? Just curious, because I honestly don't know.

I use my xp at work with 2 GB...runs at around 780 mbs (boots around this) havn't noticed how much I use at work.
My Desktop Windows 7 has 3GB runs about 720mb to creeps up to 1.8gb to 2.2gb with normal use.
My MPB with 4GB Boots at 1.16GB normal use has around 700MB FREE.

The only problem I have with SL is it simply refuses to Release Memory, I go on using it, from 1+ GB to 300 MB free, then quit all the application and it only gives me 700 MB FREE. I just let it sit there for a while but it never gives me those memory. May Be i don't understand the Memory management across OSs but it wasn't the case in Leopard.

Edit: As stated by other users, I am not biased towards OS X or Windows. I like 'em both and use them frequently.

WeegieMac
Jun 22, 2011, 06:50 PM
Goog gracious. I really am ready to believe it as Mac OS X has become the epitome of a RAM hog. :(

I fear the worst for Lion.

You may be onto something given the thread I've just put up. I've no idea why Safari and Safari Web Reader are so bloody greedy for RAM. On boot up they sit happily at under 20mb each. Three tabs and an hour of browsing later and they're 350mb monsters a piece, and the entire system begins to show signs of slowing down.

ErikGrim
Jun 22, 2011, 09:44 PM
Resizing is hardly the issue, actually. The problem is video scaling on the CPU, and that uses a lot of power. It's usually done on the GPU. See how the Finder in coverflow, when playing a movie, uses a significant amount of resources. That's in addition to decoding, which is a separate process. That's not good for battery life.Seems like an oversight. Do you often use overflow to preview movies?

Honest question, as I don't use CF at all.

damson34
Jun 24, 2011, 04:34 AM
Apple shipped 10.0, and it was slow as a dog. Also, they never actually mentioned any performance increase in the following versions.

Completely false. I see you registered here in 09 so you weren't around when 10.2 Jaguar was launched where one of the key features included the mentioned speed improvements. A lot being that this was the first version to include Quartz Extreme which required a minimum of 32mb of vram which not everyone had lol.

BlindSoul
Jun 24, 2011, 05:02 AM
Can anyone link me to a YouTube video which shows the speed performance different between OS X Lion and OS X Snow Leopard?

Thanks! :)

BlackMangoTree
Jun 24, 2011, 05:41 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PsajJrComY

dusk007
Jun 24, 2011, 07:54 AM
Really good video much better than what I have seen till now.
Like the buttons. I would have kept the sharp corners on windows. Rounded looks kind of childish. All in all GUI looks a bit better.
Still unless battery life is at least equal and there are no complaints about graphics I will stay away. Definitely not going to get it on release day. Wait a few weeks and see if they work out the important stuff(performance), new GUI is nice but really not worth any downsides.