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MacRumors
Jun 13, 2011, 02:37 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/13/os-x-lion-to-drop-rosetta-support-for-powerpc-applications/)


Soon after Apple released the first developer preview version of OS X Lion back in late February (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/02/24/apple-releases-first-developer-preview-of-mac-os-x-lion/), we noted (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/02/27/mac-os-x-lion-drops-powerpc-emulation-adds-quicktime-pro-features-much-more/) that Apple appeared to have dropped support for Rosetta, the system that allowed Intel-based Macs to run applications written for earlier PowerPC-based systems.

Apple of course made the transition to Intel-based processors five years ago, and Rosetta is an optional install under Snow Leopard, but some users are still hanging onto old PowerPC applications that either have not been updated at all or have updated versions to which the users do not wish to upgrade for one reason or another.

With OS X Lion now on its fourth developer preview version and a public release set for next month, it is clear that Rosetta will not be making an appearance in Apple's next-generation Mac operating system, finally leaving those legacy applications out in the cold.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/06/rosetta_banner.jpg


As Macworld notes (http://www.macworld.com/article/160497/2011/06/lions_nixrosetta.html) today in trying to help a user hoping to hold on to an old PowerPC version on Quicken, users who wish to upgrade to Lion while still retaining compatibility with their old applications will need to get creative.Broadly, you have a couple of options. One is to create a dual-boot Mac -- one that can boot from two volumes. One volume contains Lion and another runs an older version of the Mac OS. When you need to spend some quality Rosetta time, you boot into the older OS. And yes, this is a pain.

The other option is to simply not update to Lion. Your Mac will continue to work just as well as it does today. How acceptable this is to you depends on how desperate you are for Lion's features and iCloud (some of iCloud's features will require Lion).Macworld also suggests the possibility of running Quicken for Windows either in Boot Camp or using virtualization software such as Parallels or VMware Fusion. Quicken is a particularly interesting case given Inuit's recent revamp of its product line that has essentially left the Mac platform without a current equal to the Windows version or even earlier Mac versions, a move that has left many longtime Quicken users hoping desperately to keep their old Mac versions going.

And of course one final option is to simply abandon use of the old PowerPC applications and find substitute offerings that will run natively on Intel-based processors. Ideal substitutes may not exist for all software, particularly specialized titles, and thus users will have to weigh the pros and cons of each solution.

After five years of offering Rosetta as a solution to allow users to keep running PowerPC applications on Intel-based machines, it is no surprise that Apple has finally made the move to discontinue support. Apple's decision does mean, however, that some users will finally have to make decisions about how best to move forward with the current architecture.

Article Link: OS X Lion to Drop 'Rosetta' Support for PowerPC Applications (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/13/os-x-lion-to-drop-rosetta-support-for-powerpc-applications/)



ThisIsNotMe
Jun 13, 2011, 02:41 PM
The switch to intel has been going on since 2005.

I hate to break it to some people but its probably time to upgrade.

LastLine
Jun 13, 2011, 02:42 PM
I'm intrigued - is there much PPC only software still out therE?

gramirez2012
Jun 13, 2011, 02:42 PM
Totally inevitable.

acslater017
Jun 13, 2011, 02:43 PM
I am curious if there is any performance benefit to be gained from dropping these old technologies. Snow Leopard was a welcome house cleaning - does anyone know how Lion compares? Does it save space or take up more space than SL? How is performance?

Shimiko
Jun 13, 2011, 02:43 PM
Freehand users (like me) are crying now.

andi242
Jun 13, 2011, 02:43 PM
I'll miss Diablo 1 + 2...

...but that's ok, 3 isn't far (hopefully ;) )

840quadra
Jun 13, 2011, 02:44 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Hey Apple. how about leaving it in, but not providing operational support ( tech support ) any longer? many of us still run software that has no modern replacement, and would like to keep current while having some backward compatibility.

thanks

840

hfletcher
Jun 13, 2011, 02:44 PM
I can't see why they don't just allow people to download the Rosetta files if needed, like currently in SL - that way, it doesn't take up space if not needed, but can still be used if necessary.

Yvan256
Jun 13, 2011, 02:44 PM
One such application is ImageReady CS2.

All the alternatives I've seen so far are either too bloated, too complex or completely off in what they offer. We don't slice websites like 1995 anymore, a simple grid-based slicing with automated HTML export is NOT what I need.

Yes, I do have to make some workarounds to be able to use CS2 (need to edit the PSDs a bit), but this is 2011 and we need a Web slicing/exporting tool that knows what sprites are, that can support alpha in 8-bit PNG files, etc.

I write my own HTML and CSS, all I need is to load the PSD, set slices and formats with some parameters. Everyone else, like Pixelmator, are trying to out-do Photoshop and leaving us with no lightweight alternatives.

Hildron101010
Jun 13, 2011, 02:44 PM
Very, very old news. People knew about this back in February when this came out. We knew that Rosetta couldn't be supported because the kernel has to run in full 64 bit now. If you check the Activity Monitor, it says kernel_task Intel (64-bit).

Nugget
Jun 13, 2011, 02:44 PM
I think it's a totally reasonable decision, but it will impact me. I still fire up Myst/Riven/Exile from time to time and those all rely on Rosetta.

wordoflife
Jun 13, 2011, 02:45 PM
Goodbye Marble Blast gold ... :( haha.

asdf542
Jun 13, 2011, 02:45 PM
It sure is cOLD around here.

http://www.macrumors.com/2011/02/27/mac-os-x-lion-drops-powerpc-emulation-adds-quicktime-pro-features-much-more/

wjlafrance
Jun 13, 2011, 02:46 PM
Obvious decision is obvious. I'm surprised they didn't do it with Snow Leopard.

Rosetta is not just the fast translation layer that translates PowerPC instructions to x86 instructions. They also had to build every single system library that PowerPC apps could potentially be linked against and include them with Snow Leopard, which means that even though the kernel couldn't run on PowerPC, 90% of the operating system could.

It would have made engineering sense to jettison all PowerPC support at the same time, but I think they wanted to wait and let the PowerPC hate come in waves instead of all at once.

Very, very old news. People knew about this back in February when this came out. We knew that Rosetta couldn't be supported because the kernel has to run in full 64 bit now. If you check the Activity Monitor, it says kernel_task Intel (64-bit).

That's not the reason at all. You can run 32-bit apps under a 64-bit kernel, and there were 64-bit PowerPC processors.


I can't see why they don't just allow people to download the Rosetta files if needed, like currently in SL - that way, it doesn't take up space if not needed, but can still be used if necessary.

Snow Leopard included the system libraries built for PowerPC to allow Rosetta to link. These would be several gigabytes to download, not to mention the time it takes the engineering teams to review radars related to Rosetta and continually support the rapidly aging codebase. The cons outweigh the pros.

Rodimus Prime
Jun 13, 2011, 02:46 PM
The switch to intel has been going on since 2005.

I hate to break it to some people but its probably time to upgrade.

Older software does not work. I think this was a bad idea. They could remove the ability to compile new software using Rosetta but there is going to be a lot of stuff that just stops working. I believe Office 2008 can not even install with out Rosetta as the installer is PPC the program itself does not need it but the installer does.

I think it was a bad idea for Apple do drop a bomb shell like that. Honestly Apple should of give at least 2 years noticed so companies and enterprise which tend to move slower have noticed but then again this is why Apple sucks in the enterprise market.

codewrangler
Jun 13, 2011, 02:47 PM
If you are stuck with the old Quicken for Mac and don't like the new Quicken for Mac, you should try out iBank (http://www.iggsoftware.com/ibank).

iBank is what Quicken for Mac SHOULD have been. I converted to iBank about (2) years ago and I haven't looked back.

Quicken, who? :)

Lancetx
Jun 13, 2011, 02:47 PM
The switch to intel has been going on since 2005.

I hate to break it to some people but its probably time to upgrade.

Except for when there is no adequate Mac upgrade path (i.e. Quicken). The only option as the article states is to either keep a Snow Leopard boot drive around, or simply abandon Quicken for Mac altogether and start using the Windows version in Boot Camp/Parallels.

cppguy
Jun 13, 2011, 02:48 PM
i1Match currently requires Rosetta. That's the X-Rite i1Display 2 monitor calibration software.

bizzle
Jun 13, 2011, 02:48 PM
Very, very old news. People knew about this back in February when this came out. We knew that Rosetta couldn't be supported because the kernel has to run in full 64 bit now. If you check the Activity Monitor, it says kernel_task Intel (64-bit).

Not relevant at all. Not every Lion capable machine is capable of running its kernel in 64bit mode.

malexander
Jun 13, 2011, 02:48 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Man, it looks like my old copy of Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2 will have to go..

Jerome Morrow
Jun 13, 2011, 02:48 PM
I am curious if there is any performance benefit to be gained from dropping these old technologies. Snow Leopard was a welcome house cleaning - does anyone know how Lion compares? Does it save space or take up more space than SL? How is performance?

Don't know about performance, but fewer lines of code to maintain is a good thing.

scotty321
Jun 13, 2011, 02:49 PM
This article also has some interesting opinions and recommendations for Quicken alternatives:

Quicken for Lion: Why does Intuit hate Mac users? (http://scottworldblog.wordpress.com/2011/05/23/why-does-intuit-hate-mac-users-and-why-doesnt-apple-save-us/)

bizzle
Jun 13, 2011, 02:49 PM
Older software does not work. I think this was a bad idea. They could remove the ability to compile new software using Rosetta but there is going to be a lot of stuff that just stops working. I believe Office 2008 can not even install with out Rosetta as the installer is PPC the program itself does not need it but the installer does.
Good point, I forgot all about this. I've already been warning people they need Office 2008 or newer if they plan to upgrade, but I totally forgot the installer is PowerPC (which makes zero sense).

Kilamite
Jun 13, 2011, 02:50 PM
I don't run any PPC only applications (anymore), so I'm not bothered.

Maybe someone could compile a list of PPC only applications that have poor replacements.

Small White Car
Jun 13, 2011, 02:50 PM
I think it was a bad idea for Apple do drop a bomb shell like that. Honestly Apple should of give at least 2 years noticed so companies and enterprise which tend to move slower have noticed but then again this is why Apple sucks in the enterprise market.

I think anyone using Rosetta got 3 more years than anyone should have expected. Apple supported this far longer than I thought they would have.

Can something obvious happening really be called a "bomb shell?"

oiuh151
Jun 13, 2011, 02:51 PM
Good point, I forgot all about this. I've already been warning people they need Office 2008 or newer if they plan to upgrade, but I totally forgot the installer is PowerPC (which makes zero sense).

If Office 2008 is already installed on their machine before they upgrade there won't be any issues.

maflynn
Jun 13, 2011, 02:51 PM
We all knew this day was coming. I think people would be complaining regardless of when apple finally pulled the plug. I can't say that I'm surprised, but it may mean that more users deciding not to upgrade.

I for one will not be upgrading to 10.7, at least early on and then maybe not for some time. The major features that apple is touting don't really enhance my workflow. I can wait and by waiting my scanner software that I use will still work (for what ever reason epson hasn't updated it yet).

Icaras
Jun 13, 2011, 02:51 PM
I'll miss Diablo 1 + 2...

...but that's ok, 3 isn't far (hopefully ;) )

And Starcraft/Warcraft as well....is it possible for game developers like Blizzard to add Intel support for their legacy titles? It'd be nice....

maflynn
Jun 13, 2011, 02:52 PM
I think anyone using Rosetta got 3 more years than anyone should have expected. Apple supported this far longer than I thought they would have.

Can something obvious happening really be called a "bomb shell?"

I wouldn't call it a bombshell but some users like me are in a lurch. We have to rely on others to update software that we use. If they don't update it we're out of luck

mac=saif
Jun 13, 2011, 02:52 PM
It was quite a handy tool during the shift from PPC to intel.
It will be missed!

oiuh151
Jun 13, 2011, 02:53 PM
And Starcraft/Warcraft as well....is it possible for game developers like Blizzard to add Intel support for their legacy titles? It'd be nice....

Yes it is possible for them to make them universal, but it's unlikely that they will bother.

Jerome Morrow
Jun 13, 2011, 02:53 PM
Older software does not work. I think this was a bad idea. They could remove the ability to compile new software using Rosetta but there is going to be a lot of stuff that just stops working. I believe Office 2008 can not even install with out Rosetta as the installer is PPC the program itself does not need it but the installer does.

I think it was a bad idea for Apple do drop a bomb shell like that. Honestly Apple should of give at least 2 years noticed so companies and enterprise which tend to move slower have noticed but then again this is why Apple sucks in the enterprise market.

I understand that keeping Rosseta in Lion would be easy for Apple and people still using PPC apps could keep on using them, but in 2011 3rd party software that is not updated to intel is not Apple's problem either. Office 2008 also is not Apple's screw up.

sunfast
Jun 13, 2011, 02:54 PM
Goodbye "Return to Castle Wolfenstein" then.

superleccy
Jun 13, 2011, 02:55 PM
Guess it's time to find an affordable practical vector graphics tool that's not Corel Draw 11.

Oh... wait...

Small White Car
Jun 13, 2011, 02:55 PM
I wouldn't call it a bombshell but some users like me are in a lurch. We have to rely on others to update software that we use. If they don't update it we're out of luck

Yes, well I decided to go through that in 2009. If I couldn't get versions of things that ran natively by then I figured they were a lost cause and replaced them with different programs.

Not to sound unsympathetic, but why didn't you do that then? It was pretty clear that if a company didn't care by then they probably wouldn't ever care.

Sjhonny
Jun 13, 2011, 02:55 PM
Basterds! How about AoE 2? or Unreal Tournament? Damn it, those are the only games I still play ...

Yamcha
Jun 13, 2011, 02:56 PM
I can't say I'm happy about this, I actually attempted to install Rosetta on the Lion Developer Preview, the install went fine but rosetta based apps do not work..

Theres no rosetta applications that I rely on, I'm a web designer and I just use the latest versions of Photoshop & Illustrator etc..

But what I'm going to miss is the ability to run a lot of the old games that I really enjoyed, not to mention emulators will also no longer work..

I'm hoping we'll see some fan ports from the Windows side for these older games..

Edot
Jun 13, 2011, 02:56 PM
And Starcraft/Warcraft as well....is it possible for game developers like Blizzard to add Intel support for their legacy titles? It'd be nice....

Warcraft 3 is Intel native. Who plays Warcraft 2 anymore? Let alone 1.

jonnysods
Jun 13, 2011, 02:56 PM
Poop. No more Disk Inventory X?

Pr0digy
Jun 13, 2011, 02:57 PM
Quicken Essentials (intel app) runs just fine under Lion, what's with all the fuss, just update.

dustinsc
Jun 13, 2011, 02:57 PM
It was gonna happen someday. In the world of software, 5 years is a lifetime.

tech3475
Jun 13, 2011, 02:57 PM
I wonder if it would be possible for someone to hack Rosetta into 10.7?

Personally I can just see dual boots being used for those who really need it. I do this all the time with Windows XP and Windows 7 64bit for a few things where a VM isn't good enough and there are compatibility issues with w7 due to it being 64bit.

Small White Car
Jun 13, 2011, 02:58 PM
Guess it's time to find an affordable practical vector graphics tool that's not Corel Draw 11.

Oh... wait...

http://flyingmeat.com/acorn/ ?

I've never used it but I know it has vector tools. I don't know what you mean by "practical," though.

mysticalos
Jun 13, 2011, 02:58 PM
fortunately i don't have any apps that are PPC left. this doesn't affect me nearly as much as losing classic did, for one of my all time favorite games, lode runner, mad monks revenge :)

Jerome Morrow
Jun 13, 2011, 02:59 PM
Basterds! How about AoE 2? or Unreal Tournament? Damn it, those are the only games I still play ...

I keep Tiger installed on an external drive for all old games since 2007. Almost all old games work just fine on Tiger. Diablo I/II, Alien vs Predator, Alice in Wonderland, Return to Castle wolfenstein, Heretic and many others. Problem solved.

aprilfools
Jun 13, 2011, 02:59 PM
I'm sure I have some older applications that I use now that runs in rosetta. Is their an easy way for me to find out which programs are running in rosetta right now? I have an newer iMac running Snow Leo 10.6.7

thejadedmonkey
Jun 13, 2011, 02:59 PM
Well, there goes Starcraft, Diablo II, Warcraft II, my lyrics widget, and who knows what else.

davidsol
Jun 13, 2011, 02:59 PM
It's amusing that the one example provided of software that still runs on the pre-Intel system is Quicken. As someone who suffered through Intuit on Windoez then the Mac, let's just be real: Intuit just sucks. Oh. And Quickbooks sucks too, but that's not germane to this discussion.

If you're staying on a PPC system for Quicken-- dude, switch to Mint! I mean really. It's free and does all the stuff Quicken does, and does it better through the browser.

ecphot
Jun 13, 2011, 03:00 PM
i1Match currently requires Rosetta. That's the X-Rite i1Display 2 monitor calibration software.

yes this is a problem for me and tons of people in the professional graphics world. i'm not sure what i paid maybe $1200 for the whole calibration suite (monitor, printer, cameras, etc.) and i wont have rosetta to run it. Xrite barely ever updates software and of course there is no replacement (especially after buying the hardware). Plus they are basically the only game in town.
Not that I wanted Lion right away anyway, but I guess I'll at least need to keep SL around for awhile longer.

maflynn
Jun 13, 2011, 03:00 PM
Yes, well I decided to go through that in 2009. If I couldn't get versions of things that ran natively by then I figured they were a lost cause and replaced them with different programs.

Not to sound unsympathetic, but why didn't you do that then? It was pretty clear that if a company didn't care by then they probably wouldn't ever care.

Because the scanner I'm using only has rosetta apps. They've never updated them. So while I could possibly buy a new scanner why should I spend money on something that works now. I mean its not like I knew epson was going to sit on the osx drivers and not do much. Maybe they'll update them for 10.7, but it isn't just the drivers but the application I use with the scanner. Maybe there's an alternative but it certainly leaves me in a lurch when a hardware manufacturer doesn't provide the software I need.

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 13, 2011, 03:01 PM
It's amusing that the one example provided of software that still runs on the pre-Intel system is Quicken. As someone who suffered through Intuit on Windoez then the Mac, let's just be real: Intuit just sucks. Oh. And Quickbooks sucks too, but that's not germane to this discussion.

If you're staying on a PPC system for Quicken-- dude, switch to Mint! I mean really. It's free and does all the stuff Quicken does, and does it better through the browser.

Mint is awesome. I started using it so that I could manage my portfolio along with my current expenses.

ResPublica
Jun 13, 2011, 03:01 PM
I'm not too happy about this... I still had a few PowerPC-only applications, including some apps I could replace but also apps like the beloved and irreplaceable Age of Empires 2, for which I now have to reboot into Windows XP. Well, live goes on. :cool:

Gray.2
Jun 13, 2011, 03:01 PM
Believe it or not, my office still uses Appleworks.

With this news, we are finally making the transition to Pages.

Thank you, Steve Jobs.

P.S.

In a conversation with a "Genius" at the Apple Store, I was told that (the employee) too used Appleworks - albeit to save his passwords into. He figured that if his info was ever stolen, almost nobody would be able to open a .cwk file.

BenRoethig
Jun 13, 2011, 03:01 PM
This could break a lot of software. There are quite few programs that the program itself was updated as a universal app but the installer was kept as a PowerPC app because of rosetta. So basically with a lot of old games, my hard drive crashes, they're gone forever. But this is apple and they hold no nostalgia for the user who got them here, only the ones who are paying them now.

Stridder44
Jun 13, 2011, 03:03 PM
Very, very old news. People knew about this back in February when this came out. We knew that Rosetta couldn't be supported because the kernel has to run in full 64 bit now. If you check the Activity Monitor, it says kernel_task Intel (64-bit).

I have no idea why people are down-voting you. You're completely correct, there have been rumors about Rosetta being removed from Lion for a long time now. Not to mention the fact that Rosetta has been with us for over 5 years now.

I do wonder though, from a technical standpoint, what it is about Lion that prevents Rosetta from running on it.

Hildron101010
Jun 13, 2011, 03:05 PM
Goodbye Marble Blast gold ... :( haha.

The copy of Marble Blast I have is Universal. I will run.

Hildron101010
Jun 13, 2011, 03:06 PM
Not relevant at all. Not every Lion capable machine is capable of running its kernel in 64bit mode.

I don't know how that statement can be correct if Apple said you need at least an Intel Core 2 Duo, which is a 64-bit processor. Did I miss something?

NAG
Jun 13, 2011, 03:06 PM
Yes it is possible for them to make them universal, but it's unlikely that they will bother.

Honestly, I wouldn't bet either way with Blizzard (as in I wouldn't hold my breath but I wouldn't be surprised if it is able to run some day). They maintain their games for a ridiculous period of time. I think the only other game that could rival it for the Mac would be KotOR (assuming StarCraft finally goes out to the farm).

Small White Car
Jun 13, 2011, 03:06 PM
Mint is awesome. I started using it so that I could manage my portfolio along with my current expenses.

I love Mint too. It's the first time in my life I've actually started tracking my finances and properly budgeting. I've tried other programs before but Mint is the first one that made it easy enough to keep up with.

That being said, Mint was bought by the Quicken people and they've yet to come up with a Mac or iPad app for it. (It does have an iPhone app.) Based on how they treated Quicken for Mac all these years it makes me nervous.

We'll see. I'm using it for now and really do love it.

Slix
Jun 13, 2011, 03:07 PM
Considering the only PPC applications we use in the household is Dreamweaver 8 (back when it was owned by Macromedia), Quicken and some games like Creatures 3.

It's sad to see them go, but I can continue to use the ones I use on older Macs in the house, or find new applications to edit my site.

djrobsd
Jun 13, 2011, 03:07 PM
Seriously, does anyone still use Quicken on a Mac? If not, they REALLY need to get with the times. Intuit obviously doesn't care about Mac users, and the software is absolute junk... I hated using Quicken when I got my first Macbook Pro 5 years ago...

Besides, there are so many hosted services out there like Mint.com that do a much better job and work on all platforms.

Jerome Morrow
Jun 13, 2011, 03:07 PM
I have no idea why people are down-voting you. You're completely correct, there have been rumors about Rosetta being removed from Lion for a long time now. Not to mention the fact that Rosetta has been with us for over 5 years now.

Because people like to reject reality and substitute it with their own.

rmwebs
Jun 13, 2011, 03:07 PM
Except for when there is no adequate Mac upgrade path (i.e. Quicken). The only option as the article states is to either keep a Snow Leopard boot drive around, or simply abandon Quicken for Mac altogether and start using the Windows version in Boot Camp/Parallels.

Blame crappy Intuit then for not giving a crap about us Mac users.

Just stick Parallels/VMWare on your mac and run it through that...its not hard!

Skika
Jun 13, 2011, 03:07 PM
Why is this news...again?

840quadra
Jun 13, 2011, 03:08 PM
Yes, well I decided to go through that in 2009. If I couldn't get versions of things that ran natively by then I figured they were a lost cause and replaced them with different programs.

Not to sound unsympathetic, but why didn't you do that then? It was pretty clear that if a company didn't care by then they probably wouldn't ever care.

Perhaps I am being a bit blunt, but you actually do sound unsympathetic, which you are free to be so no apology needed :) .

There is no replacement option for some of the software many of us are using. That is the main reason effected users like myself are complaining. I wouldn't even be posting here if I didn't feel Apple was a bit too efficient in abandoning old software / technology in recent years.

Apple Supported 68K emulation for longer than we have been on Intel for Steve's sake.

kerryb
Jun 13, 2011, 03:08 PM
The switch to intel has been going on since 2005.

I hate to break it to some people but its probably time to upgrade.

Got 2 new Macs and can't wait for Lion however Adobe left GoLive sitting high and dry a few years back in favor of Dreamweaver (yuck). Looks like I will make good of my Mac Pro's second internal hard drive and boot in SL when updating my company's website.

KindredMAC
Jun 13, 2011, 03:09 PM
The only issue I take with the forthcoming Lion update is the lack of support for the Intel Core Duo chips.

My MacBook will not run Lion because it is the first gen MacBook with a Core Duo chip. Yet 6 months later the MacBooks got the Core 2 Duo chips at the GHz.

Dammit! Does that chip REALLY make THAT much of a difference for Lion???

Truffy
Jun 13, 2011, 03:09 PM
At the time of the PPC/Intel change, Steve Jobs announced Rosetta as a stop-gap so that PPC applications wouldn't be immediately redundant. But such measures can only be short-term. I'm amazed that Apple's kept it up this long.

Outsider
Jun 13, 2011, 03:09 PM
Considering the only PPC applications we use in the household is Dreamweaver 8 (back when it was owned by Macromedia), Quicken and some games like Creatures 3.

It's sad to see them go, but I can continue to use the ones I use on older Macs in the house, or find new applications to edit my site.

May I suggest Coda, made by Panic, to replace DW8?

rmwebs
Jun 13, 2011, 03:10 PM
Basterds! How about AoE 2? or Unreal Tournament? Damn it, those are the only games I still play ...

Bootcamp/Parallels with XP then - both were released for that.

NAG
Jun 13, 2011, 03:10 PM
Blame crappy Intuit then for not giving a crap about us Mac users.

Just stick Parallels/VMWare on your mac and run it through that...its not hard!

You shouldn't have to buy a Windows license (and Parallels/VMWare if you don't want to reboot) to use some software. If they care about you as a customer in the slightest they should port it and if they don't care about me why should I trust that their product is for me?

oiuh151
Jun 13, 2011, 03:11 PM
This could break a lot of software. There are quite few programs that the program itself was updated as a universal app but the installer was kept as a PowerPC app because of rosetta. So basically with a lot of old games, my hard drive crashes, they're gone forever. But this is apple and they hold no nostalgia for the user who got them here, only the ones who are paying them now.

Or you could, you know, back up your hard-drive then simply move the apps back over without having to go through the installer.

pubwvj
Jun 13, 2011, 03:11 PM
There are no alternative titles for a lot of the software. Apple should not be abandoning Rosetta and they should not have abandoned Classic. They are an enormous company with tremendous resources. They could easily keep emulation for these older systems going.

It is irresponsible of Apple to create obsolescence of hardware by discontinuing operating system and technical support for older systems. This policy of Apple's creates more trash filling the landfills and is a waste of resources.

The solution is for Apple to make new software intelligently scaleable such that it recognizes the hardware it is being installed on and adjusts to fit within the memory footprint and hardware's capabilities. Yes, certain new features like transparent window shadows will not be available but there are many improvements which can be continued to offer for older hardware such as the folders in the new iOS which do not need any advanced hardware capability.

The benefit to Apple is they can continue getting sales of operating systems each year as they offer new versions of the OS with new features. Additionally Apple will gain more market penetration as the old hardware is kept active and passed down in families resulting in a larger user installed base. Charge for the technical support - obviously. Just keep offering AppleCare.

Apple should also encourage developers to support the furthest back operating systems and hardware possible.

Eidorian
Jun 13, 2011, 03:12 PM
Poop. No more Disk Inventory X?There has been a Universal beta for years.

antrabbit
Jun 13, 2011, 03:12 PM
I like the quicken example as in the UK I don't think we ever had a mac version and they stopped supporting it for the PC in about 2004 here. So I run Quicken 2002 on Windows 98 on VM fusion and it works great. So Fusion is one of the best options for any old PPC programs.

hvfsl
Jun 13, 2011, 03:12 PM
Well if someone manages to hack rosseta so it can work in Lion, I would be happy to pay them. Because to upgrade all my apps to Intel versions would cost me close to £1000. Otherwise I guess I won't be getting Lion until I get my next Mac which will probably be some time in 2013.

oiuh151
Jun 13, 2011, 03:13 PM
I don't know how that statement can be correct if Apple said you need at least an Intel Core 2 Duo, which is a 64-bit processor. Did I miss something?

There are 64-bit processors with a 32-bit EFI which means some machines have to run the kernel in 32-bit mode.

http://www.everymac.com/articles/q&a/snow-leopard-mac-os-x-faq/mac-os-x-snow-leopard-64-bit-macs-64-bit-efi-boot-in-64-bit-mode.html

I wouldn't be surprised if the next version of OS X removes support for machines that have only a 32-bit EFI.

rmwebs
Jun 13, 2011, 03:15 PM
QUICK SOLUTION:

Step 1: Buy a Firewire external HDD. They are VERY cheap nowadays.
Step 2: Install Snow Leopard or older Mac OS.
Step 3: Dual boot.

Moaning about it wont make Apple cave...its time you found new Apps. I know there are a few games I'll still keep running off an external drive and because its Firewire it will be fairly nippy.

Alternatively if you've got a newer mac, put your Thunderbolt to use ;)

scottsjack
Jun 13, 2011, 03:15 PM
Mac users just have to get used to the fact that there are some loser companies that just don't care about updating their software Mac. HP is one of them that just can't seem to write Mac drivers for their older equipment. Of course Quicken is the poster boy for terrible Mac apps. Those clowns just can't seem to figure out how to add up numbers on a Mac. For that reason I have a Windows 7 computer running an older version of Quicken.

Truffy
Jun 13, 2011, 03:17 PM
The only issue I take with the forthcoming Lion update is the lack of support for the Intel Core Duo chips.

My MacBook will not run Lion because it is the first gen MacBook with a Core Duo chip. Yet 6 months later the MacBooks got the Core 2 Duo chips at the GHz.

Dammit! Does that chip REALLY make THAT much of a difference for Lion???
Core Duo is 32-bit, Core 2 Duo is 64-bit. Lion is 64-bit. So, I guess the answer to your question is 'yes'.

Russell L
Jun 13, 2011, 03:18 PM
At work I (and many other Mac users here) rely on tn3270, a free IBM terminal emulator, to access our mainframe database. Because tn3270 hasn't been updated in several years, it of course runs via Rosetta on my Snow Leopard iMac here at work. I just wrote to the developer about the issue, and, to my delight, he responded by saying that he is working on a universal binary version and even sent me a beta copy to try out. Would that all developers out there be this responsive!

Eidorian
Jun 13, 2011, 03:19 PM
At work I (and many other Mac users here) rely on tn3270, a free IBM terminal emulator, to access our mainframe database. Because tn3270 hasn't been updated in several years, it of course runs via Rosetta on my Snow Leopard iMac here at work. I just wrote to the developer about the issue, and, to my delight, he responded by saying that he is working on a universal binary version and even sent me a beta copy to try out. Would that all developers out there be this responsive!tn3270x? Please, say yes.

JoeIdaho
Jun 13, 2011, 03:19 PM
Like many others I am dependant on Quicken. With over a dozen years of data and over two dozen "accounts", there is no easy way to migrate. I have looked at competitive products and not found a good solution. This is one of the biggest kinks in Apple's armor. And to make this a real sore point... Did you know that Apple has a VERY small board of directors and one of them is Bill Campbell, Chairman and former CEO of Intuit !!!!!!

Nugget
Jun 13, 2011, 03:20 PM
Quicken Essentials (intel app) runs just fine under Lion, what's with all the fuss, just update.

Well the fuss is that Quicken Essentials is a pretty shallow farce compared to the old Quicken for Mac product*. They've gutted Quicken Essentials and pared down so many features that if it were any more "essential" all you'd get in the box would be a golf pencil and a paper check register.

It's not an "update" if the alternative is worse.


Edit to add: * Quicken for Mac which is, itself, a shallow farce compared to Quicken for Windows. The blame for this discomforting situation lies squarely at Intuit's feet, not Apple's. Intuit effectively abandoned the Mac five years ago.

rmwebs
Jun 13, 2011, 03:20 PM
You shouldn't have to buy a Windows license (and Parallels/VMWare if you don't want to reboot) to use some software. If they care about you as a customer in the slightest they should port it and if they don't care about me why should I trust that their product is for me?

I'm not telling you to buy anything ;)

If anything I'm telling you to stop using crappy Intuit products. Move on...its not Apples job (or any OS developers job for that matter) to hold back development for developers who cant be bothered to support their customer base with updates.

wilheldp
Jun 13, 2011, 03:20 PM
Honestly Apple should of give at least 2 years notice

Honestly, they gave you 5 years notice. And you'll still probably have a year or two of maintenance/security updates on Snow Leopard before you really need to upgrade to Lion.

Rodimus Prime
Jun 13, 2011, 03:22 PM
Good point, I forgot all about this. I've already been warning people they need Office 2008 or newer if they plan to upgrade, but I totally forgot the installer is PowerPC (which makes zero sense).

Well if something is not broken do not mess with it. Going intel or fat binary for the installer could of introduced an whole new world of problems that were unknown but the PPC installer worked great. I would not be surpised in the least if MS knew that in 2011 Rosetta support would of been dropped they would of been much more likely to address the problem then instead of waiting until the next version. Now at this point it is to late to put the money into it.

I understand that keeping Rosseta in Lion would be easy for Apple and people still using PPC apps could keep on using them, but in 2011 3rd party software that is not updated to intel is not Apple's problem either. Office 2008 also is not Apple's screw up.

More than likely is Apple screw up. You have to remember dev cycles are years long (in the case of office) so having a road map 2-3 years out is very helpful as I pointed out above. This is Apple failing to communicated or even provide a road map that is useful

I have no idea why people are down-voting you. You're completely correct, there have been rumors about Rosetta being removed from Lion for a long time now. Not to mention the fact that Rosetta has been with us for over 5 years now.

I do wonder though, from a technical standpoint, what it is about Lion that prevents Rosetta from running on it.

If I had to guess there is nothing in Lion that would prevent Rosetta from working other than Apple doing force obsolete.

vartanarsen
Jun 13, 2011, 03:23 PM
hi guys, sorry that this is off-track.
When I upgrade to Lion in July, will it read my 08 Office apps?
SL reads these apps as it is now.
I really prefer to not to have to buy Office 11.

rmwebs
Jun 13, 2011, 03:23 PM
Like many other I am dependant on Quicken. With over a dozen years of data and over two dozen "accounts", there is no easy way to migrate. I have looked at competitive products and not found a good solution. This is one of the biggest kinks in Apple's armor. And to make this a real sore point... Did you know that Apple has a VERY small board of directors and one of them is Bill Campbell, Chairman and former CEO of Intuit !!!!!!

Former being the key part of your statement there. There obviously isn't enough business in the Mac for Intuit, otherwise they would have kept up with developments...its a simple matter of common sense to work that out.

Edit: Thats right, you down vote my comment for stating something thats blatantly obvious...pathetic.

NAG
Jun 13, 2011, 03:23 PM
Okay, you're rambling all over the place so I'm just going to look at the start and end of your post.

There are no alternative titles for a lot of the software. Apple should not be abandoning Rosetta and they should not have abandoned Classic.

[...]

Apple should also encourage developers to support the furthest back operating systems and hardware possible.

How did you get from point A to point B? Are you arguing that the only way for Apple to encourage developers to support the farthest back operating system and hardware as economically feasible for the developer is for Apple to provide a kludge for them to not have to update their software to the latest hardware?

In other words, you think developers can only maintain backwards compatibility if they never update their software to take advantage of new hardware and APIs?

I hope that isn't what you're saying because it makes no sense. By your logic we should all be using punch cards because we don't want to leave behind those users.

sachinwalia
Jun 13, 2011, 03:23 PM
What will happen to my Movie Magic Scheduling 5. The guys at Entertainment partners are pretty crappy if they charge for an upgrade which I bought in december last year.

*LTD*
Jun 13, 2011, 03:23 PM
"As Macworld notes today in trying to help a user hoping to hold on to an old PowerPC version on Quicken"

Here's the problem.

Either upgrade or get left behind.

It's no skin off Apple's back, that's for sure. No shortage of customers to embrace new Macs and new software.

The only harm occurring here is the self-inflicted wounds by the user.

BrewsterMccloud
Jun 13, 2011, 03:24 PM
Believe it or not, my office still uses Appleworks.

With this news, we are finally making the transition to Pages.

Thank you, Steve Jobs.

P.S.

In a conversation with a "Genius" at the Apple Store, I was told that (the employee) too used Appleworks - albeit to save his passwords into. He figured that if his info was ever stolen, almost nobody would be able to open a .cwk file.

We use Appleworks at work as well. The .cwk documents will open in Pages (drag to Pages icon) IF they are "word processing" documents; however, database and drawing documents will not open in any other program that I have found. I have an old 12" PBG4 which I'll use for my Appleworks documents when the other computers are upgraded to Lion. If anyone knows an alternative way to open or translate Appleworks database or drawing documents please shout.

KPOM
Jun 13, 2011, 03:25 PM
Very, very old news. People knew about this back in February when this came out. We knew that Rosetta couldn't be supported because the kernel has to run in full 64 bit now. If you check the Activity Monitor, it says kernel_task Intel (64-bit).

Similarly, 64-bit Windows dropped support for 16-bit Windows applications (i.e. anything before Windows 95 and even some early Windows 95 programs). That said, 5 years isn't that long when it comes to software. Quicken 2007 is the obvious example, but some scanners and peripherals run using PowerPC code. Because Rosetta was so seamless, people might be running PowerPC code and not even realize it. It's too bad Apple couldn't have continued to support it in some fashion, but Apple, unlike Microsoft, isn't big on backward compatibility.

Anyway, the "dual boot" option won't exist for newer Macs that ship with Lion preinstalled (i.e. anything released after Lion ships). Parallels is an option, but note that, technically, it's against the EULA (except for the Snow Leopard server version).

Rodimus Prime
Jun 13, 2011, 03:25 PM
hi guys, sorry that this is off-track.
When I upgrade to Lion in July, will it read my 08 Office apps?
SL reads these apps as it is now.
I really prefer to not to have to buy Office 11.

nope sorry. Office 08 requires Rosetta to install. Apple piss poor comnications with players like MS screwed you. If MS had known in 2008 that Rosetta support was going to be dropped in 2011 I would be willing to bet that it would of address that issue. Find out in 2011 well to late new version of Office is already out and making a new installer for 2008 cost to much time and money.

oiuh151
Jun 13, 2011, 03:26 PM
hi guys, sorry that this is off-track.
When I upgrade to Lion in July, will it read my 08 Office apps?
SL reads these apps as it is now.
I really prefer to not to have to buy Office 11.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12748868&postcount=27


nope sorry. Office 08 requires Rosetta to install. Apple piss poor comnications with players like MS screwed you. If MS had known in 2008 that Rosetta support was going to be dropped in 2011 I would be willing to bet that it would of address that issue. Find out in 2011 well to late new version of Office is already out and making a new installer for 2008 cost to much time and money.
Don't spread false information. The Office 08 apps will work fine in Lion. The only thing that won't work is the installer which shouldn't be an issue so long as you installed the apps before upgrading and you backed them up so you can just move them over without the installer should something happen to your hard-drive after you install Lion.

ShaneSelling
Jun 13, 2011, 03:26 PM
I have had this same problem for the last few years. So all i did was dig out my G5 wiped everything else off the HD, bought a monitor switch, and WOW no rebooting, no launching apps. just press one button. just putting it out there because i feel your pain.

Truffy
Jun 13, 2011, 03:26 PM
Mac users just have to get used to the fact that there are some loser companies that just don't care about updating their software Mac. HP is one of them that just can't seem to write Mac drivers for their older equipment.
Users in general have to recognise that hardware companies are often not motivated to update drivers for legacy equipment, unless there's a maintenance contract. Their response will be that the latest versions of their hardware will have drivers.

For scanners, there was an open-source project (sourceforge?) that covered a lot of legacy hardware. I don't know what the status of this is now.

McGiord
Jun 13, 2011, 03:27 PM
It is quite easy to keep a partition or HDD with the former Mac OS version that you love to use. Virtualization could be another way.

One thing I don't understand is if Lion is going to be installed over Snow Leopard, why couldn't it keep Rosetta as an option?
What is the definition of the delta upgrades?

Tech198
Jun 13, 2011, 03:27 PM
Windows users kinda of went through this too in their own way.

When Microsoft bought out Windows Vista, most things broke. (I'm using Vista as an example, deliberately, because it was terrible)

so users had to decide what to do... But everything works out in the long run.

Now, its Apples turn to not include Rosetta and hurt legacy users who rely on PowerPC software.

While this hurts me, as the only thing preventing me from upgrading is loosing access to one app that i always use, I can, thankfully, do use Parallels anyway, so I can easily use Windows equivalent software to do the same job.

WHile this is not really the intention : eg. the whole reason why i used it on the mac was to move away from Windows.

Now, its turning it around again and taking me back... All thanks to Lion

ah well... still its much easier the dual booting Boot camp or legacy OS (Snow Leopard) just to use it.

all this hassle may be a problem now, but we will probably all look back at these Incompatibilities issues with older software in the future ant think "What was I worrying about"

Jerome Morrow
Jun 13, 2011, 03:27 PM
More than likely is Apple screw up. You have to remember dev cycles are years long (in the case of office) so having a road map 2-3 years out is very helpful as I pointed out above. This is Apple failing to communicated or even provide a road map that is useful


So it's Apple's fault that Microsoft decided to use PPC installer for 2008 Office? All sane developer were shipping UB apps/installers in 2008.

Rodimus Prime
Jun 13, 2011, 03:27 PM
Okay, you're rambling all over the place so I'm just going to look at the start and end of your post.



How did you get from point A to point B? Are you arguing that the only way for Apple to encourage developers to support the farthest back operating system and hardware as economically feasible for the developer is for Apple to provide a kludge for them to not have to update their software to the latest hardware?

In other words, you think developers can only maintain backwards compatibility if they never update their software to take advantage of new hardware and APIs?

I hope that isn't what you're saying because it makes no sense. By your logic we should all be using punch cards because we don't want to leave behind those users.

Dropping the support is bad enough but the failure to comincated when they are doing it is a huge problem. A lot of the larger programs out there have dev cycles that are years in length so having a roadmap a few years out is a good thing.

chaosbunny
Jun 13, 2011, 03:28 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; de-de) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Well, I'm in no hurry to update to lion. There are various bugs anyway until the first couple of ".x" updates. Plus why update just to look for ways to disable iCloud? By the time I need Lion for newer programs I'll just dual boot.

NAG
Jun 13, 2011, 03:29 PM
hi guys, sorry that this is off-track.
When I upgrade to Lion in July, will it read my 08 Office apps?
SL reads these apps as it is now.
I really prefer to not to have to buy Office 11.

In the spirit of teaching how to fish rather than just giving you the fish here is how to find out if the App will run on Intel macs without Rosetta.

1) Navigate to the application and select it
2) File (menu) > Get Info
3) Under the General section look at the Kind
4) If Kind: is "Application (Intel)" or "Application (Universal)" you're okay

Dropping the support is bad enough but the failure to comincated when they are doing it is a huge problem. A lot of the larger programs out there have dev cycles that are years in length so having a roadmap a few years out is a good thing.

And they had years. Rosetta was always a kludge to provide people with applications for Intel macs on launch. Claiming ignorance that an emulation environment was going to stick around forever is naive. I can sympathize with the whole Carbon 64bit thing because Apple did a big head feint there by at first working on it only to just drop Carbon pretty much all together. Saying you need over five years to convert your application over to five year old hardware is frankly just contrarian arguing.

*LTD*
Jun 13, 2011, 03:31 PM
nope sorry. Office 08 requires Rosetta to install. Apple piss poor comnications with players like MS screwed you. If MS had known in 2008 that Rosetta support was going to be dropped in 2011 I would be willing to bet that it would of address that issue. Find out in 2011 well to late new version of Office is already out and making a new installer for 2008 cost to much time and money.

MS Office is nice to have in an OS X version. But Apple at this point isn't going to go out of their way to work closely with MS on it. Not when Apple is pushing iWork. Love it or hate it Apple will devote more time and resources to iWork or some other project, rather than MS Office. We'll still have MS Office, but don't expect the moon and the stars from Apple when it comes to its development. This is natural, given the situation.

miografico
Jun 13, 2011, 03:32 PM
Not relevant at all. Not every Lion capable machine is capable of running its kernel in 64bit mode.

Huh? Lion will not run on a x86-32 bit based CPUs every machine running Lion has to be 64 bit capable.

roland.g
Jun 13, 2011, 03:32 PM
I don't know what everyone is talking about. According to Roaring Apps, Rosetta works just fine. And I'm not sure why anyone would really care about using it. Is it really that popular.

http://roaringapps.com/app:721

biggreydog
Jun 13, 2011, 03:33 PM
One Phrase:

"Planned Obsolescense"

We did this with earlier versions (OS 7, 8, 9), so this is nothing new. It bites me a bit since I'm involved in the housing industry and haven't updated computers in over five years. At least I can testify a Power Mac G5 can last about eight years. I would challenge some PC users to claim the same. I have a few Intel iMac machines but will wait a few years before an upgrade (NBD). The latest OS we have is Leopard anyway.

oiuh151
Jun 13, 2011, 03:33 PM
Huh? Lion will not run on a x86-32 bit based CPUs every machine running Lion has to be 64 bit capable.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12749055&postcount=78

Jerome Morrow
Jun 13, 2011, 03:33 PM
MS Office is nice to have in an OS X version. But Apple at this point isn't going to go out of their way to work closely with MS on it. Not when Apple is pushing iWork. Love it or hate it Apple will devote more time and resources to iWork or some other project, rather than MS Office. We'll still have MS Office, but don't expect the moon and the stars from Apple when it comes to its development. This is natural, given the situation.

I really can't wrap my head around this. It's an installer, what work we are talking about when it looks like a no brainer to use universal installer for software released in 2008 knowing that PPC won't be supportted forever.

jameskatt
Jun 13, 2011, 03:33 PM
I run lots of applications.

I checked on Activity Monitor. None are running PowerPC Code.

It is time to move on.

Whatever PowerPC Code is still on the hard drive needs to be cleaned out.

Thank goodness.

Jeaz
Jun 13, 2011, 03:34 PM
I'm intrigued - is there much PPC only software still out therE?

Primarily, for me, it's old games that break, like Diablo 2 and Starcraft. Still, I support the move. Supporting old architecture is a PITA and 5 years is more than a fair time to let developers get up to date.

amethystjw
Jun 13, 2011, 03:34 PM
I have a Dell 3100cn networked color laser printer that I really like, despite the Dell badge. Unfortunately the driver is PPC-only and Dell has not updated it. This is the only concern I still have regarding losing Rosetta.

Does anyone have advice or suggestions for keeping a printer alive in Lion when its drivers are PPC-only? I'm wondering if there's some kind of generic Universal driver I can use; the printer is pretty basic, after all.

Shattentor
Jun 13, 2011, 03:34 PM
I think it's absolutely okay to drop PPC support with Lion. It's been a long enough transition and every old architecture has to go sometime.

roland.g
Jun 13, 2011, 03:35 PM
MS Office is nice to have in an OS X version. But Apple at this point isn't going to go out of their way to work closely with MS on it. Not when Apple is pushing iWork. Love it or hate it Apple will devote more time and resources to iWork or some other project, rather than MS Office. We'll still have MS Office, but don't expect the moon and the stars from Apple when it comes to its development. This is natural, given the situation.

Sorry but MS Office for Mac is a joke compared to Office for Windows. Honestly the only thing worse than Office for Mac is Office 2007 for Windows. Lucky for me my work still uses Office XP (2002 w/ Outlook 2003) because everyone I know who has a newer PC for work hates the revamped Windows Office.

KPOM
Jun 13, 2011, 03:36 PM
More than likely is Apple screw up. You have to remember dev cycles are years long (in the case of office) so having a road map 2-3 years out is very helpful as I pointed out above. This is Apple failing to communicated or even provide a road map that is useful


Regardless of who's "screw up" it is, there could be a lot of angry Office 2008 users who don't like the ribbon and just assumed they could keep using it in Lion because it is Intel. I certainly didn't know until now that the installer was PowerPC.

Windows users kinda of went through this too in their own way.

When Microsoft bought out Windows Vista, most things broke. (I'm using Vista as an example, deliberately, because it was terrible)


I'm sure Apple doesn't want Lion to be their "Vista." Anyway, Microsoft made it a point that anything that was Vista-certified would run under Windows 7. Perhaps a "certification" program would help here. Hopefully Apple at least provides an "upgrade advisor" the way Microsoft did with Windows 7 that will go through your system and identify hardware or software that won't work.

Jeaz
Jun 13, 2011, 03:36 PM
I have a Dell 3100cn networked color laser printer that I really like, despite the Dell badge. Unfortunately the driver is PPC-only and Dell has not updated it. This is the only concern I still have regarding losing Rosetta.

Does anyone have advice or suggestions for keeping a printer alive in Lion when its drivers are PPC-only? I'm wondering if there's some kind of generic Universal driver I can use; the printer is pretty basic, after all.

Not an expert with printers and Macs, but it might be possible with some generic postscript driver (which the 3100cn has support for).

Panu
Jun 13, 2011, 03:38 PM
The author forgot to mention another alternative: put on a hair shirt, sleep on a straw mat on the floor, whip yourself regularly, and eat nothing but porridge, water, bread and dates. The experience is virtually indistinguishable from using the versions of Quicken that run on Rosetta.

There is an application called Moneydance that can import Quicken files better than Quicken can, and has file format that is not prone to corruption. Unless you like to draw pretty pictures about your money, this is a much more capable and more stable solution than any version of Quicken for the Mac. It is a quick, easy, and reliable upgrade from Quicken.

TheRealTVGuy
Jun 13, 2011, 03:39 PM
Older software does not work. I think this was a bad idea. They could remove the ability to compile new software using Rosetta but there is going to be a lot of stuff that just stops working. I believe Office 2008 can not even install with out Rosetta as the installer is PPC the program itself does not need it but the installer does.

I think it was a bad idea for Apple do drop a bomb shell like that. Honestly Apple should of give at least 2 years noticed so companies and enterprise which tend to move slower have noticed but then again this is why Apple sucks in the enterprise market.

Consider this your two-year warning. We'll see you in 2013....

CorvusCamenarum
Jun 13, 2011, 03:39 PM
In the spirit of teaching how to fish rather than just giving you the fish here is how to find out if the App will run on Intel macs without Rosetta.

1) Navigate to the application and select it
2) File (menu) > Get Info
3) Under the General section look at the Kind
4) If Kind: is "Application (Intel)" or "Application (Universal)" you're okay

I'm going to lose Simcity 4 and Neverwinter Nights. Boo.
Warcraft 3, Nestopia, and SNES9X are OK though. Yay.

Older software does not work. I think this was a bad idea. They could remove the ability to compile new software using Rosetta but there is going to be a lot of stuff that just stops working. I believe Office 2008 can not even install with out Rosetta as the installer is PPC the program itself does not need it but the installer does.

I think it was a bad idea for Apple do drop a bomb shell like that. Honestly Apple should of give at least 2 years noticed so companies and enterprise which tend to move slower have noticed but then again this is why Apple sucks in the enterprise market.
Didn't we go through something similar with the OS 9 -> OS X transition?

Xenious
Jun 13, 2011, 03:40 PM
This is really annoying as I have no need to upgrade Photoshop from CS1 (nor could I without buying the full latest version) and Adobe has no reason to patch it to Intel so I'm stuck.

shompa
Jun 13, 2011, 03:40 PM
The strange thing is that majority of Apples business now uses ARM, with is a version PowerPC.

Like many others in this thread: I have Apple Codecs to FinalCutPro that uses Rosetta. I will not be happy if Apple has not solved this with next version of OSX.

BTW.
I predict that an ARM version of OSX will be avalible within 2 years. In only 4 months there are ARM chips that are fast enough for 80-90% of the users.

The quod core ARM is faster then for example first gen MacBook air intel processor. The different is energy and price. Intel Chip + chipset motherboard costs about 400 dollar and draws peak 40 watt. A quod core ARM has the same functionality costs 25 dollar and draws 2.5 watt peak.

Truffy
Jun 13, 2011, 03:41 PM
If MS had known in 2008 that Rosetta support was going to be dropped in 2011 I would be willing to bet that it would of address that issue.
That's a good one! :D

NAG
Jun 13, 2011, 03:42 PM
I'm going to lose Simcity 4 and Neverwinter Nights. Boo.
Warcraft 3, Nestopia, and SNES9X are OK though. Yay.

Which brings up the question, why do we have Sim City on the iPad and iPhone but not for new macs? What is going on there?

roland.g
Jun 13, 2011, 03:43 PM
Should they also bring back support for the SCSI port?

Rosetta is just the PowerPC version of Classic. Get on with it or keep a legacy machine.

miografico
Jun 13, 2011, 03:46 PM
http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12749055&postcount=78

Sorry, there is a big difference between a 32 bit EFI and a 32 bit CPU. There are well known hacks to get Snow Leopard to boot into 64 bit Kernel Mode when you have a 32 bit EFI, but a 64 bit CPU.

Truffy
Jun 13, 2011, 03:46 PM
I don't know what everyone is talking about. According to Roaring Apps, Rosetta works just fine. And I'm not sure why anyone would really care about using it. Is it really that popular.

http://roaringapps.com/app:721
Is that meant to be a joke? Rosetta Stone (http://www.rosettastone.com/) is not Rosetta (http://www.apple.com/asia/rosetta/).

Mac-Mariachi
Jun 13, 2011, 03:48 PM
Man, I will definitely miss Freehand, I´m a user since 1992. Time to start fiddling around with that copy of Pixelmator I bought a while back in one o those MacHeist bundles.

Does anybody recommend Pixelmator as a Freehand alternative or is there something better out there (not Adobe Illustrator please)?

oiuh151
Jun 13, 2011, 03:49 PM
Sorry, there is a big difference between a 32 bit EFI and a 32 bit CPU. There are well known hacks to get Snow Leopard to boot into 64 bit Kernel Mode when you have a 32 bit EFI, but a 64 bit CPU.
Sorry, but you're the one mistaken here.

I'd love to see what "well known hacks" you are talking about because it's impossible to make a machine with a 32-bit EFI boot into a 64-bit kernel regardless of whether or not your CPU is 64-bit or 32-bit.

jamesarm97
Jun 13, 2011, 03:50 PM
Guess it's time to find an affordable practical vector graphics tool that's not Corel Draw 11.

Oh... wait...

This is my one an only one I will have a problem with.

amethystjw
Jun 13, 2011, 03:50 PM
Is that meant to be a joke? Rosetta Stone (http://www.rosettastone.com/) is not Rosetta (http://www.apple.com/asia/rosetta/).

It's got to be a joke, guys. MacRumors forum posters aren't that thick. Right? ...Right?

iSee
Jun 13, 2011, 03:50 PM
I don't know what everyone is talking about. According to Roaring Apps, Rosetta works just fine. And I'm not sure why anyone would really care about using it. Is it really that popular.

http://roaringapps.com/app:721

That's Rosetta Stone, the foreign language app.
Here were talking about Rosetta, the OS X service that allows apps compiled for PPC to run on Intel Macs.

Jerome Morrow
Jun 13, 2011, 03:50 PM
Man, I will definitely miss Freehand, I´m a user since 1992. Time to start fiddling around with that copy of Pixelmator I bought a while back in one o those MacHeist bundles.

Does anybody recommend Pixelmator as a Freehand alternative or is there something better out there (not Adobe Illustrator please)?

Pixelmator is not vector based image creation and editing software.

KPOM
Jun 13, 2011, 03:51 PM
http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12748868&postcount=27



Don't spread false information. The Office 08 apps will work fine in Lion. The only thing that won't work is the installer which shouldn't be an issue so long as you installed the apps before upgrading and you backed them up so you can just move them over without the installer should something happen to your hard-drive after you install Lion.

Chris Breen on Macworld said that the installer works, though some people have reported issues with some of the updates (e.g. corrupt databases). He said it's nothing Microsoft couldn't fix with updates (and probably will since it's in its "current" support phase).

amethystjw
Jun 13, 2011, 03:52 PM
Man, I will definitely miss Freehand, I´m a user since 1992. Time to start fiddling around with that copy of Pixelmator I bought a while back in one o those MacHeist bundles.

Does anybody recommend Pixelmator as a Freehand alternative or is there something better out there (not Adobe Illustrator please)?

I moved from an ancient pirated copy of Photoshop a long time ago to Pixelmator (from the same MacHeist bundle as you, I think) and I've been pleased with it, overall. That said, Photoshop is not Freehand, so I suppose you'll have to try it out to really know whether you like it.

JoeDMD
Jun 13, 2011, 03:52 PM
My scanner drivers will not install witout rosetta.
Some printer drivers also require rosetta.

roland.g
Jun 13, 2011, 03:54 PM
Is that meant to be a joke? Rosetta Stone (http://www.rosettastone.com/) is not Rosetta (http://www.apple.com/asia/rosetta/).

It's got to be a joke, guys. MacRumors forum posters aren't that thick. Right? ...Right?

That's Rosetta Stone, the foreign language app.
Here were talking about Rosetta, the OS X service that allows apps compiled for PPC to run on Intel Macs.

;)

I know what Classic is, SCSI, etc. Of course I know what Rosetta is. :D

techwhiz
Jun 13, 2011, 03:55 PM
If you have a scanner use VueScan. It supports just about any scanner that is or has been on the market.

I just wish I had a decent Quicken alternative.
The new version is bad and doesn't support older formats locking your data into a proprietary database. The other software out there just doesn't cut it. I've looked at iBank multiple times and it doesn't import or do split transactions well. I think i'll look at MoneyDance but I don't have high hopes.

If I had Rosetta I would just use the same old app I've been using.
If it works, why change?

Flynnstone
Jun 13, 2011, 03:55 PM
Just thinking out loud (actually typing :D )

Can Leopard be run in a VM such as Parallels?

macpeach55
Jun 13, 2011, 03:56 PM
Sorry but MS Office for Mac is a joke compared to Office for Windows. Honestly the only thing worse than Office for Mac is Office 2007 for Windows. Lucky for me my work still uses Office XP (2002 w/ Outlook 2003) because everyone I know who has a newer PC for work hates the revamped Windows Office.

Strange - you attack the MS Office for Mac as being a joke compared with Office for Windows, then state that you still use and prefer the 2002 version.

Here we use both of the latest versions, and find them both drastic improvements on the earlier versions, and as good as each other.

So maybe you should not trash a Mac version when you don't even like the Windows version. Maybe your post should have simply read "All versions of Office since 2002/3 suck". That is really your stance.

MacSince1985
Jun 13, 2011, 03:57 PM
1) Navigate to the application and select it
2) File (menu) > Get Info
3) Under the General section look at the Kind
4) If Kind: is "Application (Intel)" or "Application (Universal)" you're okay

To check all your apps at once, open System Profiler (Apple Menu > About This Mac > More Info...). Go to Applications and click on the Kind column. You'll see which apps are PPC only on your system.

NAG
Jun 13, 2011, 04:01 PM
Pixelmator is not vector based image creation and editing software.

Supposedly Pixelmator 2 is getting vector drawing to some extent. Personally, for vector I'm one of those guys who uses Omnigraffle (nice blog post showing how Omnigraffle is more than just a diagram tool (http://www.omnigroup.com/blog/entry/simones_story_using_omnigraffle_to_draw_comics/)).

MacSince1985
Jun 13, 2011, 04:02 PM
I can wait and by waiting my scanner software that I use will still work (for what ever reason epson hasn't updated it yet).
For old scanners, try VueScan (http://www.hamrick.com/). I first bought it when Epson dropped my printer after the classic to OS X switch years ago and I've been getting free upgrades ever since. In many cases it's better than the software bundled with the scanner.

Maoltuile
Jun 13, 2011, 04:03 PM
I'm intrigued - is there much PPC only software still out therE?

Drivers and such. I have a CanoScan 8000f that needs Rosetta.

supmango
Jun 13, 2011, 04:03 PM
Good point, I forgot all about this. I've already been warning people they need Office 2008 or newer if they plan to upgrade, but I totally forgot the installer is PowerPC (which makes zero sense).

...and when does anything coming from Redmond WA make sense?? (sorry, couldn't resist)

It is frustrating though that Apple would chose to do this. But to be fair, it's not like it's been 5 years or anything... oh wait, yes it has. You could see the writing on the wall when they dropped PPC support in Snow Leopard.

And speaking of Microsoft... People, and more importantly corporations, are not really adopting Windows 7 like they had hoped (it's still about half and half (http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp)). Why? Partly it is because companies have spent a lot of money on programs that they don't want to give up. Partly because they did such an excellent job with Vista. But this is nothing new for Microsoft. They have always had problems with reverse compatibility when transitioning between operating systems.

It will be interesting to see if this actually affects people's adoption of Lion. Clearly Apple doesn't think it will.

Maoltuile
Jun 13, 2011, 04:04 PM
For old scanners, try VueScan (http://www.hamrick.com/). I first bought it when Epson dropped my printer after the classic to OS X switch years ago and I've been getting free upgrades ever since. In many cases it's better than the software bundled with the scanner.

Tried Vuescan. Hate it with a passion. Horrible, horrible, even compared to years-old Canon software.

deus_ex_machina
Jun 13, 2011, 04:06 PM
Poop. No more Disk Inventory X?

Disk Inventory X works fine.

http://www.derlien.com/downloads/index.html

firewood
Jun 13, 2011, 04:13 PM
So what are die-hard Eudora users moving to for email under Lion?

I tried both Thunderbird and the Apple Mail app a couple years ago, and went back to using my 6 year old copy of Eudora.

bizzle
Jun 13, 2011, 04:14 PM
I don't know what everyone is talking about. According to Roaring Apps, Rosetta works just fine. And I'm not sure why anyone would really care about using it. Is it really that popular.

http://roaringapps.com/app:721


You've been here since 2005 and you are that oblivious to what we are all talking about?

Xenomorph
Jun 13, 2011, 04:15 PM
I use a 1.33 GHz PowerPC G4 system still (1.5 Gigs RAM and a Radeon 9700 Pro). It's loaded with games and apps I've been using over the years.

I don't know which apps I have are PowerPC-only, but I'm pretty sure a ton of my games are PowerPC only. Blizzard stuff like StarCraft, Warcraft III, Diablo II, etc. I think Halo and Unreal Tournament 2004 are PowerPC-only as well.
I still fire up StarCraft every now and then - especially since it works better than it does on Windows!

Guess I still have a reason to keep the G4 around. It has Mac OS X 10.4 installed, so it still does Classic mode and has great support for old PowerPC games. I can't run WoW on it any longer (it dropped support for PowerPC some time ago), and the official builds of Firefox 4 don't work on PowerPC either.

I guess it's no big loss moving my Core 2 Duo and Core i7 systems to 10.7... :(

gnasher729
Jun 13, 2011, 04:18 PM
Very, very old news. People knew about this back in February when this came out. We knew that Rosetta couldn't be supported because the kernel has to run in full 64 bit now. If you check the Activity Monitor, it says kernel_task Intel (64-bit).

What makes you think the kernel would have anything to do with it? Rosetta runs just fine on Macs with 64 bit kernel. It is actually invisible to any applications, including Rosetta. Apple could support Rosetta as long as it supports 32 bit Intel applications.

NAG
Jun 13, 2011, 04:19 PM
So what are die-hard Eudora users moving to for email under Lion?

I tried both Thunderbird and the Apple Mail app a couple years ago, and went back to using my 6 year old copy of Eudora.

Well first you have to port Hypercard to Intel OS X. Then you'll need to create a stack to present all your arguments why you need Eudora and why all the alternatives won't work. After that you'll need to create a time machine using a Mac Classic to recover your backup files from 1969 and quickly zap your pram to avoid a paradox. And after you get the port you can never mention it to anyone or your computer will turn into a pumpkin.

bentoms
Jun 13, 2011, 04:20 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8F190 Safari/6533.18.5)

Simple solution.

Don't upgrade to Lion!

If your mac needs replacing due to a hardware fault... refurbs, eBay etc...

Will sort you out whilst a decent alternative/upgrade is released.

It's not Apple's problem.

Keeping Classic & Rosetta would leave us with an OS like Windows. Full of old inefficient code.

Eriamjh1138@DAN
Jun 13, 2011, 04:25 PM
Drop Rosetta. Drop the legacy stuff. It only holds us back.

It was horrible in OS8 and OS9. Old 680x0 code still running on PPC machines. Classic dragged it on when OSX launched and no one misses it today.

roland.g
Jun 13, 2011, 04:26 PM
You've been here since 2005 and you are that oblivious to what we are all talking about?

No. You're just gullible. :rolleyes:

mjstew33
Jun 13, 2011, 04:27 PM
Believe it or not, my office still uses Appleworks...

:eek:

ten-oak-druid
Jun 13, 2011, 04:33 PM
Believe it or not, my office still uses Appleworks.

With this news, we are finally making the transition to Pages.

Thank you, Steve Jobs.

P.S.

In a conversation with a "Genius" at the Apple Store, I was told that (the employee) too used Appleworks - albeit to save his passwords into. He figured that if his info was ever stolen, almost nobody would be able to open a .cwk file.

I used appleworks for quite a while after their discontinuation for two applications: Paint and Draw. Apple had very good apps there and let them die. These two could have been part of iwork if they had kept them current.

The last time I tried to run apple works though, it was rather clunky. I think in Leopard or SL it became unusable for me. I didn't try very hard to revive it though.

I still have not found a good substitute for these.

gnasher729
Jun 13, 2011, 04:35 PM
I understand that keeping Rosseta in Lion would be easy for Apple and people still using PPC apps could keep on using them, but in 2011 3rd party software that is not updated to intel is not Apple's problem either. Office 2008 also is not Apple's screw up.

Here's the problem: Many people have invested significant money in applications that work just fine. Any new MacBook runs PowerPC apps better than any G5 MacPro ever did. So these people will not want to run Lion. Which means if I write apps that require Lion then these people will not be able to run them, so they won't buy them. So I have to continue to write code that runs on Leopard. If Apple kept Rosetta, then I could write code for 10.7.

MagnusVonMagnum
Jun 13, 2011, 04:40 PM
The switch to intel has been going on since 2005.

I hate to break it to some people but its probably time to upgrade.

Rosetta isn't about people switching to Intel dude! It's about Intel machines being able to run software that was never updated (like Quicken) to run natively as Intel code.

Frankly, I think this is a stupid move on Apple's part. WTF does it hurt them to leave Rosetta functional for those who need it (like with Snow Leopard an optional install) ??? Is there something about Rosetta that breaks OSX? I don't think so. This is just Apple being stupid. Steve probably has it in his head he wants to leave that PPC nightmare (that he loved so much in the past) behind completely just so he can sleep at night. Screw the people who need to run Quicken. Have Intuit even offered a discount for them to the Windows version? Of course not.

I'd be curious to know what exactly Rosetta needs to function under Lion. What part of the OS is causing the current version to crap out on developer builds? Most emulators I have for other systems couldn't care less about the OS version. After all, they are emulating the OLD software, not the new software.

ten-oak-druid
Jun 13, 2011, 04:40 PM
This is the normal sequence of events. We have had several transitions:

68k --> PowerPC
Classic --> OS X
PowerPC --> Intel

Each time Apple has done a fine job of offering compatibility of older software long after the transition. I believe business schools have used Apple as a model of how to do this right.

Eventually the support for older systems goes away.

firewood
Jun 13, 2011, 04:41 PM
Old 680x0 code still running on PPC machines.

Still running...

Really old 680x0 code will run under vMac. And the vMac emulator will run on the latest Intel Macs under Lion.

Mac-Mariachi
Jun 13, 2011, 04:42 PM
Pixelmator is not vector based image creation and editing software.

You're absolutely correct. I meant to say VectorDesigner :D.

Marx55
Jun 13, 2011, 04:43 PM
All Mac OS X versions are basically the same; fixings of a beta software still in beta (and the amazing thing is that they charge with each new beta version; so many bugs still need fixing since version 1.0). Thus, it should be possible to re-install Rosetta from Mac OS X 10.6 to Mac OS X 10.7.

Amblydoper
Jun 13, 2011, 04:46 PM
With Rosetta, there was never any incentive to replace PPC apps with Universal or Intel apps. Now, there is a clear reason for developers to do so. Give them some time, and the ones that care about their customers will provide solutions. The ones that don't... stop giving them money.

Quicken is a different story. Quicken sucks. If you refuse to switch to an alternative AND you require Lion, then you need to keep a copy of SL somewhere. (dual boot, virtual machine, second computer or external drive).

As for the 5 to 15 year old video games, either say good bye, or keep SL alive some how.

sith33
Jun 13, 2011, 04:58 PM
If anyone actually cares about the reason this is happening, wjlafrance had it right on the first page - to support rosetta, all libraries have to be cross compiled for ppc. So it's not just a matter of "leaving it in," it's a matter of devoting developer resources to building, enhancing, testing and maintaining those libraries.

Apple made the decision that it was better to put those resources into 10 more cool new Lion features. You can disagree with that, but claiming that it's a conspiracy to make you buy a new machine is just plain old internet crazy.

milo
Jun 13, 2011, 05:04 PM
I have a Dell 3100cn networked color laser printer that I really like, despite the Dell badge. Unfortunately the driver is PPC-only and Dell has not updated it. This is the only concern I still have regarding losing Rosetta.

Does anyone have advice or suggestions for keeping a printer alive in Lion when its drivers are PPC-only? I'm wondering if there's some kind of generic Universal driver I can use; the printer is pretty basic, after all.

Initially I didn't care at all about dropping rosetta, but after reading the comments I realized that my printer and scanner may not be supported. I'll probably still update to 10.7, but I won't be happy if I have to dump perfectly good hardware just for an OS update.


Chris Breen on Macworld said that the installer works, though some people have reported issues with some of the updates (e.g. corrupt databases). He said it's nothing Microsoft couldn't fix with updates (and probably will since it's in its "current" support phase).

A PPC only installer works on 10.7 without rosetta? How?

I would be impressed with MS if they finally shipped an update to the installer. Bonehead move in the first place not making the installer universal when they made the apps universal.

nik911sc
Jun 13, 2011, 05:05 PM
To replace mission critical software that is PPC I am looking at the equivalent cost to a MBA. The end result is wasteful software upgrades at the expense of a MBA. Apple loses, I lose and mediocre software vendors win.

I suppose I am one of the lucky ones where there is an upgrade path albeit at the expense of my next Apple purchase.

The point about Rosetta getting dropped being known for a long time is overstated. It's has only ever been rumored and I have read lots of rumors about this but have read nothing concrete to say it is definite.

NAG
Jun 13, 2011, 05:06 PM
Rosetta isn't about people switching to Intel dude! It's about Intel machines being able to run software that was never updated (like Quicken) to run natively as Intel code.

Surfer-speak aside, you're wrong. The functionality was introduced so people wouldn't be skittish about updating to an Intel Mac due to lack of software/chicken and the egg problem. Essentially, if your old software didn't work on Intel Macs why not jump ship to Windows if you're going to have to rebuy everything. It was never meant as a crutch for developers to use ad infinitum. It was a way for Apple to get the new hardware out to create a userbase so developers would have a market to sell the new Intel compatible software to.

Frankly, I think this is a stupid move on Apple's part. WTF does it hurt them to leave Rosetta functional for those who need it (like with Snow Leopard an optional install) ??? Is there something about Rosetta that breaks OSX? I don't think so. This is just Apple being stupid. Steve probably has it in his head he wants to leave that PPC nightmare (that he loved so much in the past) behind completely just so he can sleep at night. Screw the people who need to run Quicken. Have Intuit even offered a discount for them to the Windows version? Of course not.

You're making the assumption that this is similar to how the iPad has a 2x mode to help with the product launch there. You make quite a few assumptions regarding just how much time and other resources are (not by your lack of understanding) required. Your underestimation is actually kind of shocking.

The simple fact is that 10.6 will still run your software that hasn't been updated for 5 year old hardware so why do you care if you can't run the latest OS? 10.6 isn't going to lose any functionality and will likely receive security updates until 10.8 if previous security updates are any indication. And if you want to upgrade then, you might want to ask the company why they don't upgrade their software to work on hardware released within the last decade.

artguy3d
Jun 13, 2011, 05:06 PM
This irks me so much I have to weigh in...

Now how hard would it of really been for apple to leave the functionality for those upgrading from Snow Leopard? And how many billions of dollars do they have now - of our money and purchases over the years?

What a pisser (sorry for the language).

A quick look at my system shows more than 40 programs affected!

I've got most all the new stuff, but the old versions are needed for various reasons - especially for design and printing legacy users - not to mention long time developers, engineers, architects, designers, etc.

The new systems can run this old stuff without a cough. It's often the new versions that are full of bloat that hog resources and slow machines.

Various work flows are going to be interupted and I don't think we have even began so see the complaints and ill-will this will cause. And for what reason?

Steve - what's the point?

Sjhonny
Jun 13, 2011, 05:09 PM
I keep Tiger installed on an external drive for all old games since 2007. Almost all old games work just fine on Tiger. Diablo I/II, Alien vs Predator, Alice in Wonderland, Return to Castle wolfenstein, Heretic and many others. Problem solved.

Well the problem with that is, you'll have to maintain your current hardware. There will be a time Apple'll releases hardware that wouldn't be able to run Tiger, Leopard or Snow Leopard (maybe a post OS X time) ... What then? I find it hard to believe that someone will build an OS X emulator like they did recently for the Atari ...

Thunderhawks
Jun 13, 2011, 05:09 PM
Older software does not work. I think this was a bad idea. They could remove the ability to compile new software using Rosetta but there is going to be a lot of stuff that just stops working. I believe Office 2008 can not even install with out Rosetta as the installer is PPC the program itself does not need it but the installer does.

I think it was a bad idea for Apple do drop a bomb shell like that. Honestly Apple should of give at least 2 years noticed so companies and enterprise which tend to move slower have noticed but then again this is why Apple sucks in the enterprise market.

And after a 2 year notice we would hear the same kwetching.

Anybody releasing MAC Programs shouldn't need notice. All the info what is to happen when has been available for a long long time.

Companies and Enterprises who tend to move slower need to get with it.
Sounds heartless, but the computer world of today is fast paced in case they didn't notice.

Don't think Apple should be asked (or given a negative rap) to wait for the slowest to catch up.
Surefire way to go broke!

roadbloc
Jun 13, 2011, 05:14 PM
I'll miss my old games. I guess I could just stick the Windows versions on my Windows 7 box instead when I do upgrade to Lion...

...interesting on how Microsoft manages to keep compatibility, but Apple can't.

ryanwarsaw
Jun 13, 2011, 05:15 PM
Poop. No more Disk Inventory X?

I was thinking that too. It is the only app I use that uses Rosetta as far as I know.

gkarris
Jun 13, 2011, 05:17 PM
NO, NO, NO, NO.... :mad:

(holds onto "Quake" and "AppleWorks" discs/boxes...) :eek:

NAG
Jun 13, 2011, 05:20 PM
NO, NO, NO, NO.... :mad:

(holds onto "Quake" and "AppleWorks" discs/boxes...) :eek:

Not criticizing but how many people can actually tolerate AppleWorks in 10.6 for more than a few hours? It really is falling apart under Rosetta.

jameskatt
Jun 13, 2011, 05:41 PM
i1Match currently requires Rosetta. That's the X-Rite i1Display 2 monitor calibration software.

This is going to be a good reason some companies will get off their butt and update their software.

Some of these companies simply haven't cared that much about the Mac. They need to since a substantial number of customers use the Mac.

mrr
Jun 13, 2011, 05:43 PM
Damn!

I "want" to upgrade to Lion BUT I still use many older PPC apps that run just fine but are no longer actively being supported.

One is DISKTRACKER where I have thousands of cds archived and the other is PHOTOGRIDX to quickly edit photos.

I am going to be screwed without either of these.

GoKyu
Jun 13, 2011, 05:46 PM
i1Match currently requires Rosetta. That's the X-Rite i1Display 2 monitor calibration software.

I have that calibration device and it's time to upgrade...it's several years old now - I'm looking at getting the ColorMunki...


...interesting on how Microsoft manages to keep compatibility, but Apple can't.


Vista didn't do such a great job of keeping compatible...a lot of programs needed to be upgraded so they'd run on XP/Vista, and then Win7. Windows 7 has done a good job, but Vista was the big, no pun intended, roadblock to allow that to happen....

Lesser Evets
Jun 13, 2011, 05:50 PM
Farewell to UT99... wait, wtf? NO: farewell LION.

Apple should have Rosetta. I can live without Lion. I can NOT live without the dozen old programs I continue to use, and I'd rather not spend $2500 for new versions after $29.95 for a buggy OS that won't be consumer ready until late next year.

Mattww
Jun 13, 2011, 05:54 PM
Goodbye "Return to Castle Wolfenstein" then.

There is an Intel build in the works as the source was released by ID:

http://code.google.com/p/bzzwolfsp/

Mattww
Jun 13, 2011, 06:01 PM
We use Appleworks at work as well. The .cwk documents will open in Pages (drag to Pages icon) IF they are "word processing" documents; however, database and drawing documents will not open in any other program that I have found. I have an old 12" PBG4 which I'll use for my Appleworks documents when the other computers are upgraded to Lion. If anyone knows an alternative way to open or translate Appleworks database or drawing documents please shout.

For database files Bento should work:

http://www.filemaker.co.uk/products/bento/appleworks.html

bobbleheadbob
Jun 13, 2011, 06:05 PM
Rosetta.....ah, now there was some sexy software. As I get older I like Cougar better, too.

asterizk
Jun 13, 2011, 06:07 PM
Thinking about this more I think this theory has a lot of merit.

I think Apple WILL be shifting some or all of its machines over to ARM in the near future. It just makes sense to support a single chipset from an engineering cost perspective, and guess what chipset their fastest-growing OS uses? Re-writing Rosetta to run under ARM is just not in Apple's interest (also Rosetta was developed for Apple by a third party, Transitive, which IBM purchased three years ago (http://www.sciencecentric.com/news/08111957-ibm-announces-plans-acquire-transitive-corporation.html)).

If there was ever a company that pro-actively killed technology, it's Apple. By doing so it can both drive new sales (the cynical view) and add new user features as quickly as possible (the non-cynical view). Both views are probably true.

This ties into this recent rumor (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/06/apple-to-move-from-intel-to-arm-processors-in-future-laptops/) about Apple moving future laptops to ARM processors.

Also, on the topic of tech-obsolescence: Why Microsoft Has Made Developers Horrified of Coding for Windows 8 (http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/06/microsoft-developers-windows-8/)

The strange thing is that majority of Apples business now uses ARM, with is a version PowerPC.

Like many others in this thread: I have Apple Codecs to FinalCutPro that uses Rosetta. I will not be happy if Apple has not solved this with next version of OSX.

BTW.
I predict that an ARM version of OSX will be avalible within 2 years. In only 4 months there are ARM chips that are fast enough for 80-90% of the users.

The quod core ARM is faster then for example first gen MacBook air intel processor. The different is energy and price. Intel Chip + chipset motherboard costs about 400 dollar and draws peak 40 watt. A quod core ARM has the same functionality costs 25 dollar and draws 2.5 watt peak.

artguy3d
Jun 13, 2011, 06:17 PM
Vista didn't do such a great job of keeping compatible...a lot of programs needed to be upgraded so they'd run on XP/Vista, and then Win7. Windows 7 has done a good job, but Vista was the big, no pun intended, roadblock to allow that to happen....

Lion could become the great "Vista debacle" for Apple. I've purchased every cat Apples offered on day one - early adopter from way back Beta version "Kodiak", then "Cheetah", "Puma", "Jaguar", "Panther", "Tiger", "Leopard" and now "Snow Leopard". Also owned every version of DOS and Windows until XP.

But I never even upgraded to Vista and hate helping others use it and Windows 7.

Lion is not looking like something I want to go through the pain of adopting for what seems to be very little gain. Some other loyal users may feel the same...

firewood
Jun 13, 2011, 06:19 PM
The strange thing is that majority of Apples business now uses ARM, with is a version PowerPC.

The ARM architecture is not a version of the PowerPC. PowerPC came after Acorn ARM, although the IBM 801 experimental RISC machine predated both.

I predict that an ARM version of OSX will be avalible within 2 years.

iPhone OS and iOS are ARM versions of OS X, and they came out over 2 years ago.

ksgant
Jun 13, 2011, 06:24 PM
I'm never upgrading. I have my programs I bought with my SE/30 back in the day and I spent a pretty penny for them. I'm not about to spend more money just to run these programs I already bought.

Why don't these new Macs come with a way to run my SE/30 programs? Where's the damn disk-drives in these things? I don't like new things. In my day you bought something and if you took care of it it lasts forever. I don't like them abandoning their customers and their older computers. I spent thousands and thousands of dollars on these things and they want more? No-sir-re. not from me they don't get another dime. I still run System 6 on it with the Multifinder. Works just fine.


/end grumpy-old-dinosaur rant

Dagless
Jun 13, 2011, 06:24 PM
If some company comes along and builds their own emulation or signs up with publishers to port over their old code - they might make a bit of a small killing.

trrll
Jun 13, 2011, 06:29 PM
Another program unavailable in an OS X Intel version is Canvas, once the premier Mac drawing package, but acquired by a company that reformulated it into a high-end Windows-only package that costs about as much as a Mac Mini. I use Canvas a few times a week, and I've literally got decades of Canvas files, many of which I use on a regular basis. I've yet to find a Mac program that is an adequate substitute. So I'm not going to be upgrading to Tiger until I have a workaround for the omission of Rosetta. Dual boot is an option, but an inconvenient one. I'm hoping that somebody will work out a way to use an earlier version of Mac OS with Parallels or VMWare so that I can run it simultaneously with Lion.

THX1139
Jun 13, 2011, 06:32 PM
Older software does not work. I think this was a bad idea. They could remove the ability to compile new software using Rosetta but there is going to be a lot of stuff that just stops working. I believe Office 2008 can not even install with out Rosetta as the installer is PPC the program itself does not need it but the installer does.

I think it was a bad idea for Apple do drop a bomb shell like that. Honestly Apple should of give at least 2 years noticed so companies and enterprise which tend to move slower have noticed but then again this is why Apple sucks in the enterprise market.

They did get notice... back when they switched to Intel processors. Time to come out of the cave and notice that the world has advanced.

amethystjw
Jun 13, 2011, 06:37 PM
Not an expert with printers and Macs, but it might be possible with some generic postscript driver (which the 3100cn has support for).

You were right! Thanks. Tonight I uninstalled the PPC-only printer driver for my Dell 3100cn and set up the printer using Apple's Generic Postscript Printer driver. Know what? It works perfectly. I printed a text document and a Google map and both look exactly as they're supposed to. I'm totally ready to ditch Rosetta now.

firewood
Jun 13, 2011, 06:38 PM
Time to come out of the cave and notice that the world has advanced.

The problem is that this is not always true. For some stuff the newer software currently available is a retreat (more bugs, less features), not an advance.

Icy1007
Jun 13, 2011, 06:39 PM
I won't be able to play Diablo 2 or StarCraft 1 anymore once I upgrade to Lion. :( Maybe Blizzard will actually update them to work without Rosetta.

kps
Jun 13, 2011, 06:44 PM
I can live without Lion. I can NOT live without the dozen old programs I continue to use

I don't know what I'm going to do when my Mac Pro and MacBook Pro need to be replaced. I still think OS X is the best personal computer OS there is… but its owner thinks the personal computer has no future.

artguy3d
Jun 13, 2011, 06:49 PM
The problem is that this is not always true. For some stuff the newer software currently available is a retreat (more bugs, less features), not an advance.

Agree with you.

I own several new i7's a i5 an i3 also OSX servers and several other OSX systems. Safe to say I'm not in a cave but still can rant about this stupid move by Apple.

cult hero
Jun 13, 2011, 06:51 PM
The only issue I take with the forthcoming Lion update is the lack of support for the Intel Core Duo chips.

My MacBook will not run Lion because it is the first gen MacBook with a Core Duo chip. Yet 6 months later the MacBooks got the Core 2 Duo chips at the GHz.

Dammit! Does that chip REALLY make THAT much of a difference for Lion???

Yeah. It's a 32-bit chip. The Core 2s are 64-bit.

Mac4Brains
Jun 13, 2011, 06:52 PM
I am a long time Mac fan who likes my games. I installed Windows on my Mac just so I can get some old games, that I loved in the past, to work, off of eBay, since I cant play them on the Mac anymore. The one part of windows I do like is the legacy support. I can still play the same games in windows while the Mac version of the same game was made non-functional several times over.

Macs are overpriced as it is, being forced to get new software because the new Mac OS does not support my old software makes the overhead of owning a Mac even more costly. The costs of the Mac and the costs of keeping a Mac is the main gripe most Windows people have. Dropping Rosetta is not helping this issue any.

Now I am being told that the software I got 5 year ago will no longer work on a Mac while I have some software running in Windows 7 that was made for Windows 95, that I still like to use after 16 years. And now with the iTools, sorry iDisk, on now it is Mac.com, or is it MobllMe, oh wait now it is iCloud and I still don’t know how all this is going to affect me.

This is getting a little frustrating Steve!:mad:

Kristenn
Jun 13, 2011, 06:52 PM
Quake works fine on Intel. Just go here =D

http://mac.softpedia.com/get/Games/Quake.shtml

I play it quite a bit and I don't even have Rosetta installed. Its universal so it will open for people with PPC too.

NAG
Jun 13, 2011, 06:53 PM
You know, I remember in undergrad using a UV/spec that was connected to an HP DOS computer to do the calculations. It worked fine for an extremely long time (yes, the computers did die recently, I believe). So the department bought some new specs and connected them to Mac mini's. They'll probably keep with that until those die and upgrade again.

The lesson here is that it is completely okay to stay with an old OS version and hardware to run mission critical software as long as you take proper care of it. It is doing exactly what you need it to do and that is great. If you want 10.7 install it on a machine that you don't run that software on. It sucks but that is how the world has worked for quite some time now.

cult hero
Jun 13, 2011, 06:53 PM
You shouldn't have to buy a Windows license (and Parallels/VMWare if you don't want to reboot) to use some software. If they care about you as a customer in the slightest they should port it and if they don't care about me why should I trust that their product is for me?

You don't HAVE to upgrade either.

No one is being "forced" to do anything here.

Lion will not support Rosetta. Make your decisions accordingly.

People still using PPC based software clearly aren't a large enough number for Apple to care about or... they would.

cult hero
Jun 13, 2011, 06:56 PM
... The one part of windows I do like is the legacy support. ...

...

This is getting a little frustrating Steve!:mad:

And Windows is mired with its own problems as a result of this. It's a trade off. Some people were weeping and wailing when Apple killed the floppy drive on their systems. I wasn't one of them.

NAG
Jun 13, 2011, 06:58 PM
You don't HAVE to upgrade either.

No one is being "forced" to do anything here.

Lion will not support Rosetta. Make your decisions accordingly.

People still using PPC based software clearly aren't a large enough number for Apple to care about or... they would.

You're yelling at the wrong person. If you read my post in context I was replying to a person jokingly saying you should use the Windows version and I was saying that was silly called the person's joke by just flat out saying don't buy the software because at some point you'll have to upgrade your computer and you'll potentially lose data due to the company being incompetent. I in no way said the word "forced" as you quoted so I have no idea if you're actually referring to me there or someone else as I have actually supported the idea of not upgrading if you don't want to (in fact in the post just above yours).

So yeah, hope that clears things up so you can turn off your caps lock gun.

PowerGamerX
Jun 13, 2011, 06:59 PM
and windows is mired with its own problems as a result of this. It's a trade off. Some people were weeping and wailing when apple killed the floppy drive on their systems. I wasn't one of them.

qft

ncbill
Jun 13, 2011, 07:06 PM
So can't we install a VM and load 10.6 (or earlier) on that and avoid the need to reboot to use PPC applications?

cult hero
Jun 13, 2011, 07:07 PM
Which brings up the question, why do we have Sim City on the iPad and iPhone but not for new macs? What is going on there?

No one is buying for the Mac. People are buying for iDevices though. That's all it is.

NAG
Jun 13, 2011, 07:09 PM
No one is buying for the Mac. People are buying for iDevices though. That's all it is.

I see your iDevice developing and raise you a "look at the iDevice ported games in the Mac App Store"...what the hey, all in with "EA would port a game to run on your toaster if it made them a buck".

artguy3d
Jun 13, 2011, 07:09 PM
You don't HAVE to upgrade either.

No one is being "forced" to do anything here.

Lion will not support Rosetta. Make your decisions accordingly.

People still using PPC based software clearly aren't a large enough number for Apple to care about or... they would.

I just think that they SHOULD.

We stuck with them back in 2006 when they switched the last Macs to Intel processors. I think they should support the established base one more OSX release. They have the money to do this right but obviously they just don't want to. I think it is a bad call. They have made very few mistakes in the past but I think this is a big one.

Many people haven't noticed what programs and installers actually use the old code but when the OSX Lion upgrade breaks software people use - that's when we'll really hear the complaints.

cult hero
Jun 13, 2011, 07:10 PM
You're yelling at the wrong person. If you read my post in context I was replying to a person jokingly saying you should use the Windows version and I was saying that was silly called the person's joke by just flat out saying don't buy the software because at some point you'll have to upgrade your computer and you'll potentially lose data due to the company being incompetent. I in no way said the word "forced" as you quoted so I have no idea if you're actually referring to me there or someone else as I have actually supported the idea of not upgrading if you don't want to (in fact in the post just above yours).

So yeah, hope that clears things up so you can turn off your caps lock gun.

Sorry about that. I wasn't even griping at you so much as I happened to quote your post for an idea I've seen spewed over and over on this thread.

I just keep reading posts where people have this idea that they "deserve" the newest software and also "deserve" to have support for whatever ancient software they decide to use.

Also, I keep my caps lock gun loaded here (primarily because I'm WAY too lazy to use bold or italics for emphasis).

Mac4Brains
Jun 13, 2011, 07:11 PM
And Windows is mired with its own problems as a result of this. It's a trade off. Some people were weeping and wailing when Apple killed the floppy drive on their systems. I wasn't one of them.

That was one change I did agree with. I get more out of my thumb drive anyway. and even today I have the choice of getting one if I need it.

cult hero
Jun 13, 2011, 07:14 PM
I just think that they SHOULD.

We stuck with them back in 2006 when they switched the last Macs to Intel processors. I think they should support the established base one more OSX release. They have the money to do this right but obviously they just don't want to. I think it is a bad call. They have made very few mistakes in the past but I think this is a big one.

Many people haven't noticed what programs and installers actually use the old code but when the OSX Lion upgrade breaks software people use - that's when we'll really hear the complaints.

They have the money to do it "right"? This depends on what your definition of "right" is. To me, the "right" thing to do is to kick deadbeat developers in the rear.

You know what happens when you don't do that? You get programs that refuse to run as a non-administrative user like Windows had for what feels like centuries as this point.

Some people would argue they did they "right" thing. "Right" is entirely subjective here though.

Also, at the end of the day, whether it's Apple or Microsoft or whoever... they're gonna do what's "right" for their shareholders and that equates to profit margins. Apple does not care about you. They never have. They care about your money, just like every business out there.

NAG
Jun 13, 2011, 07:17 PM
I just think that they SHOULD.

We stuck with them back in 2006 when they switched the last Macs to Intel processors. I think they should support the established base one more OSX release. They have the money to do this right but obviously they just don't want to. I think it is a bad call. They have made very few mistakes in the past but I think this is a big one.

Many people haven't noticed what programs and installers actually use the old code but when the OSX Lion upgrade breaks software people use - that's when we'll really hear the complaints.

Why?

No really, why?

Why is it doing it right to continue including Rosetta?

Why do they only have to include it for one more release?

Why is it even a money thing?

I swear we're seeing the bargaining phase of coping with loss here.

I have a few questions more, actually.

Why were developers continuing to develop exclusively for the PPC when it was clear Intel was the future?

Why did the developers not care enough for their customers to provide them with a more future proof version of their product?

Why did they go so many releases over half a decade and not address this?

...

Is this a money thing?

Rodimus Prime
Jun 13, 2011, 07:20 PM
They have the money to do it "right"? This depends on what your definition of "right" is. To me, the "right" thing to do is to kick deadbeat developers in the rear.

You know what happens when you don't do that? You get programs that refuse to run as a non-administrative user like Windows had for what feels like centuries as this point.

Some people would argue they did they "right" thing. "Right" is entirely subjective here though.

Also, at the end of the day, whether it's Apple or Microsoft or whoever... they're gonna do what's "right" for their shareholders and that equates to profit margins. Apple does not care about you. They never have. They care about your money, just like every business out there.

I read post like this and it becomes pretty clear that someone does not understand devolopment at all.

No one really rights new code that uses Rossetta. You have legacy code for some of the older stuff left over or installers. If something worse great you do not want to re do it because you risk a whole new world of hurt in the transition. In huge programs switching from PPC to x86 can cause loads of problems and have near zero gain. Cost to convert old code is just not worth it for how little they gain.

CalCanuck
Jun 13, 2011, 07:24 PM
Freehand users (like me) are crying now.

Maybe the boys over at FreeFreehand.org will have some luck with their lawsuit against Adobe and Freehand's code will be handed over to someone who cares.

Really - couldn't they (Adobe) just recompile the code to work natively under OSX without having to rewrite the whole thing to make us Freehand users happy -- I'd gladly pay for an OSX native upgrade.

http://www.freefreehand.org/ffh_newsletter13.html

Rodimus Prime
Jun 13, 2011, 07:25 PM
Maybe the boys over at FreeFreehand.org will have some luck with their lawsuit against Adobe and Freehand's code will be handed over to someone who cares.

Really - couldn't they (Adobe) just recompile the code to work natively under OSX without having to rewrite the whole thing to make us Freehand users happy -- I'd gladly pay for an OSX native upgrade.

http://www.freefreehand.org/ffh_newsletter13.html

recompiling in theory would work but on anything large the reality is no not always and chances are would introduce a lot of bugs.

jpine
Jun 13, 2011, 07:29 PM
Seriously, does anyone still use Quicken on a Mac? If not, they REALLY need to get with the times. Intuit obviously doesn't care about Mac users, and the software is absolute junk... I hated using Quicken when I got my first Macbook Pro 5 years ago...

Besides, there are so many hosted services out there like Mint.com that do a much better job and work on all platforms.

Call me paranoid, but I don't like the idea of managing my finances with cloud-based applications.

artguy3d
Jun 13, 2011, 07:31 PM
They have the money to do it "right"? This depends on what your definition of "right" is. To me, the "right" thing to do is to kick deadbeat developers in the rear.

You know what happens when you don't do that? You get programs that refuse to run as a non-administrative user like Windows had for what feels like centuries as this point.

Some people would argue they did they "right" thing. "Right" is entirely subjective here though.

Also, at the end of the day, whether it's Apple or Microsoft or whoever... they're gonna do what's "right" for their shareholders and that equates to profit margins. Apple does not care about you. They never have. They care about your money, just like every business out there.

Well you have a point about developers.

But I'm more interested in the end user here as that is me. Lazy developers are probably not going to change. Even big companies - how long since Epson released any new drivers that are compatible?

I have a 44" archival ink $15K printer and I know Epson won't get un-lazy and develop a Lion driver for it.

So now I have to look at new $2,500 rip software, and time to implement? Oh I might find and test something cheaper than that, but what a waste.

And that's just one thing of many things that Lion will probably break...

NAG
Jun 13, 2011, 07:32 PM
I read post like this and it becomes pretty clear that someone does not understand devolopment at all.

No one really rights new code that uses Rossetta. You have legacy code for some of the older stuff left over or installers. If something worse great you do not want to re do it because you risk a whole new world of hurt in the transition. In huge programs switching from PPC to x86 can cause loads of problems and have near zero gain. Cost to convert old code is just not worth it for how little they gain.

This ignores the reality of Rosetta never being meant to be a permanent thing. The whole 10.6 not including Rosetta by default should have been a huge flashing red light for anyone who was paying attention in the slightest.

Apple gave them years of warning. This is like a teenager riding a bike with training wheels claiming that he thought all bikes just came with them. Apple was pretty blatant about this transition.

swissmann
Jun 13, 2011, 07:32 PM
I ditched quicken a long time ago. Went first to iBank and then to MoneyDance and ended up at MoneyWell which I really like. There should be a new version relatively soon but I quite like what's available today also.

Check it out if you want:
http://nothirst.com/moneywell/

kevin2i
Jun 13, 2011, 07:36 PM
Seriously, tell me that you guys really can't figure this out?

Set up a small partition on a drive (internal or external) and install Leopard or Snow Leopard. Install all your legacy software.

Hold down the 'option' key when you boot. Instant choice.

Come on guys, you knew that. This isn't windows - multiple boot drives? It just works on a mac.

And thanks apple for letting go. Legacy is for Windows. :D

Sir Cecil
Jun 13, 2011, 07:43 PM
That's the end for the great little JAM editing software then.
Roxio has kept it going in a weak and almost worthless form as an extra in Toast, but the old stand-alone version was/is far superior.
A real problem as far as I'm concerned because I use this a lot for micro-crossfaded micro-edits and have found no better way of doing this.

Rodimus Prime
Jun 13, 2011, 07:48 PM
This ignores the reality of Rosetta never being meant to be a permanent thing. The whole 10.6 not including Rosetta by default should have been a huge flashing red light for anyone who was paying attention in the slightest.

Apple gave them years of warning. This is like a teenager riding a bike with training wheels claiming that he thought all bikes just came with them. Apple was pretty blatant about this transition.

Not permanent is one thing. But not providing any true Heads up and EOL is another. Finding out in Feb of this year because it was that way in the beta is not exactly good.

Dropping support should of been announced when Leapoded was release that 2011ish is when it was going to drop support for it. This gives a lot more time to make sure things are updated and are going to prevent a lot of problems.

For a lot of software devs that is kind of a bomb shell to have to deal with update legacy code in a relatively short time span.

Microsoft for examle with Vista gave noticed what they were going to do and at least gave quite a bit of warning hey the older stuff is not going to work. Now did companies listen no. But they still gave it. Vista took heat for what was beyond MS control and W7 comes out and those problems were fix and MS also gave plenty of warning that in 64 bit version of windows 16 bit programs would not be supported. They gave plenty of warning.

Apple gave no warning and that is the key thing. It is the poor communication that is a problem.

artguy3d
Jun 13, 2011, 07:48 PM
Seriously, tell me that you guys really can't figure this out?

Set up a small partition on a drive (internal or external) and install Leopard or Snow Leopard. Install all your legacy software.

Hold down the 'option' key when you boot. Instant choice.

Come on guys, you knew that. This isn't windows - multiple boot drives? It just works on a mac.

And thanks apple for letting go. Legacy is for Windows. :D

Problem is you can't dual boot and print, or access some old program you need to use concurrently. Really about the best solution would be to run windows in Parallels and utilized the legacy drivers that way. But there are performance reasons I don't like running Windows all the time.

Love the SSD on my laptop by the way - it just limits the space for inelegant solutions like dual boot.

Rosetta was actually a elegant software solution in that it was invisible and just worked when you needed it.

Mountain Man
Jun 13, 2011, 07:48 PM
I have a "tool, not a hobby". My MBP just works and does all I need it to do using both Intel, and Rosetta-based apps. I'm a teacher of Mathematics and I cannot give up mission-critical Rosetta-based apps that I use for teaching. Add to that my personal needs (Quicken) that are functionally satisfied by SL and you have one individual who will not be upgrading to Lion for quite some time.

InuNacho
Jun 13, 2011, 07:51 PM
Why didn't Apple create an optional buyable download for us Legacy users, I wouldn't mind paying an extra $5-$10 for PPC support.

All those saying PPC should go away and never return should start a fund for us "legacy users" to get current Intel software.
You can start out with me, I need a good working MOD player that can export to different filetypes, CS3 or better, and Office 08 or better.

lilo777
Jun 13, 2011, 07:51 PM
You don't HAVE to upgrade either.

No one is being "forced" to do anything here.

Lion will not support Rosetta. Make your decisions accordingly.

People still using PPC based software clearly aren't a large enough number for Apple to care about or... they would.

What are the options? Switch to Windows to avoid getting burnt again and again? Apple caring solely for their profits is getting too ugly.

NAG
Jun 13, 2011, 07:58 PM
Not permanent is one thing. But not providing any true Heads up and EOL is another. Finding out in Feb of this year because it was that way in the beta is not exactly good.

Dropping support should of been announced when Leapoded was release that 2011ish is when it was going to drop support for it. This gives a lot more time to make sure things are updated and are going to prevent a lot of problems.

For a lot of software devs that is kind of a bomb shell to have to deal with update legacy code in a relatively short time span.

Microsoft for examle with Vista gave noticed what they were going to do and at least gave quite a bit of warning hey the older stuff is not going to work. Now did companies listen no. But they still gave it. Vista took heat for what was beyond MS control and W7 comes out and those problems were fix and MS also gave plenty of warning that in 64 bit version of windows 16 bit programs would not be supported. They gave plenty of warning.

Apple gave no warning and that is the key thing. It is the poor communication that is a problem.

I'll give you the no warning to the users as they do not pay attention to this and there will probably be some "Why doesn't x run in 10.7?" threads here come next month (along with "Where did Java/Flash go?"). They really should be more explicit there.

But I seriously cannot get behind your argument that developers were blindsided here. Rosetta was a transitional technology, just like Classic. It was meant to ease transition and then go away. I could understand your point if this was 2007 or even 2008. This is 2011. Relying on something that is clearly transitional for so long is blatant sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "I'm lazy, lalalalalal!"

This isn't like Carbon 64 where Apple was supporting it only to pull the rug out (even then there were some hints but it doesn't excuse Apple for faking devs out like that). Over half of Rosetta's webpage back in 2006 talked about talking to your developers about upgrading or sidegrading to a universal version of the app. Isn't that kind of a hint there?

I'd like to think being a good developer is being able to pick up on which direction the wind is blowing so you don't end up in a dead end and out of gas.

Vitaminp
Jun 13, 2011, 07:58 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Man, it looks like my old copy of Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2 will have to go..

Well, You can always use a nintendo64 Emulator for that.... (sixty-force is good).

artguy3d
Jun 13, 2011, 07:59 PM
I have a "tool, not a hobby". My MBP just works and does all I need it to do using both Intel, and Rosetta-based apps. I'm a teacher of Mathematics and I cannot give up mission-critical Rosetta-based apps that I use for teaching. Add to that my personal needs (Quicken) that are functionally satisfied by SL and you have one individual who will not be upgrading to Lion for quite some time.
Yes I remember some cool math apps. I also sunk some $$$$ in one CAD software I still use because it has no equal...

NAG
Jun 13, 2011, 08:02 PM
Why didn't Apple create an optional buyable download for us Legacy users, I wouldn't mind paying an extra $5-$10 for PPC support.

All those saying PPC should go away and never return should start a fund for us "legacy users" to get current Intel software.
You can start out with me, I need a good working MOD player that can export to different filetypes, CS3 or better, and Office 08 or better.

Probably because unlike what some people are saying here this isn't about money.

Nah, Apple is evil. Silly me. :rolleyes:

amiganut
Jun 13, 2011, 08:13 PM
Looks like I'll be left out in the cold too. My PPC's still works with 10.5.8. Apparently that's as high as I can go. So, do I also loose my mac.com email account? No AppStore either? So, I'll be a 73 year old "orphan". No more updates or new Mac's for me. Thanks Steve.:mad:

cult hero
Jun 13, 2011, 08:14 PM
I read post like this and it becomes pretty clear that someone does not understand devolopment at all.

No one really rights new code that uses Rossetta. You have legacy code for some of the older stuff left over or installers. If something worse great you do not want to re do it because you risk a whole new world of hurt in the transition. In huge programs switching from PPC to x86 can cause loads of problems and have near zero gain. Cost to convert old code is just not worth it for how little they gain.

I understand development just fine. It's what I do for a living.

Apple has no desire to deal with PPC anymore. There's a reason they're dropping it, whether it be technical or monetary. If it was a simple as keeping a single package that made PPC stuff "just work" I can't imagine they'd get rid of it. The only thing that really annoys me about this is their lame policy on virtualization.

It's being removed from Lion. Deal with it. Snow Leopard is still supported and will be for the lifecycle of Lion so developers have plenty of notice.

Also... porting to Intel isn't "no gain." The gain is moving to the current supported hardware platform. Seriously, if your software isn't running Intel by now the developer is either lazy or has abandoned the software. This isn't an Apple specific problem.

There are going to be problems with this. There always are during transitions. Say hello to technological progress.

When I need to run stuff that's so "legacy" that it's beyond the supported threshold, it's often run on old machines running older operating systems, etc. This happens all the time.

lhammer610
Jun 13, 2011, 08:18 PM
Honestly, they gave you 5 years notice. And you'll still probably have a year or two of maintenance/security updates on Snow Leopard before you really need to upgrade to Lion.

"need to upgrade"? I still have 10.4 on my G5 and iBook, while running 10.6 on my iMac. There are a few things that will not work on 10.4 (like snyc to an iPad), but I don't need them.

You can use 10.6 forever and it will still do the things it does now. Just don't upgrade programs.

I will not go to Lion 10.7 because of my older programs. I still use Office 2004 and have no reason to upgrade.

cult hero
Jun 13, 2011, 08:19 PM
What are the options? Switch to Windows to avoid getting burnt again and again? Apple caring solely for their profits is getting too ugly.

Snow Leopard is still supported and will be for the life of Lion. If you need long term legacy support, I gotta tell you, as a consultant I certainly wouldn't recommend Apple for a company or an end user. Linux and Windows are better choices for that.

You do you have a choice. You might not like it, but they exist.

Apple caring solely for profits makes them... hmmm... like every other BUSINESS out there. That's what businesses do. I'm not even condoning this behavior so much as I'm stating the obvious. Why people around here thinks Apple does or even should care about them is absurd. Their profit margins and sales numbers right now indicate that they don't need you.

Let me reiterate: make your decisions accordingly.

cult hero
Jun 13, 2011, 08:24 PM
I'd like to think being a good developer is being able to pick up on which direction the wind is blowing so you don't end up in a dead end and out of gas.

It was pretty obvious. If a company is phasing out hardware only a complete moron would believe that the software necessary to facilitate the transition would be long term—especially if it's Apple we're talking about.

And besides, Snow Leopard will be supported during the lifecycle of Lion, so it's not like anyone is just magically cut off either.

powers74
Jun 13, 2011, 08:27 PM
What I find amusing is that there are people who want to upgrade to the latest operating system... But not update to the latest Quicken! Makes no sense. One of my printers is still using Illustrator 9 in OS 9. God help her.

"I want the latest, moistest cake, with all the best ingredients, with the oldest, crustiest, most stale frosting!" lol

NAG
Jun 13, 2011, 08:28 PM
Looks like I'll be left out in the cold too. My PPC's still works with 10.5.8. Apparently that's as high as I can go. So, do I also loose my mac.com email account? No AppStore either? So, I'll be a 73 year old "orphan". No more updates or new Mac's for me. Thanks Steve.:mad:

@mac email: you'll have to convert it to an iCloud account but it will work just fine (it's just IMAP, even works in Windows, nothing special about it).

Rest of MobileMe stuff: You'll probably lose access to about everything else. You might be able to get your calendar and address book because I believe it is based on open standards (probably). But I wouldn't count on the majority of the functionality working. You'll be able to keep MobileMe until this time next year if that is any consolation.

AppStore: you never had it to begin with so yeah, you're not getting it. Apple never updates previous OS versions with new features, just security updates. Quite a few apps are also sold on the web, outside of the store (a few are not but those generally aren't compatible with 10.5 anyway as 10.6 is their minimum compatible target).

[...]The only thing that really annoys me about this is their lame policy on virtualization.[...]

I'm behind you on that one.

lanceh5
Jun 13, 2011, 08:32 PM
My solution for the one iMac that has the older application is to boot from an external drive with OS.6. I am thinking about getting a 4 bay external that will will back up the old OS and 10.7. The other two Macs will run the new OS with their own external backups. I still occasionally use an ancient G4 tower with OS 9 to play my favorite game

jpale
Jun 13, 2011, 08:40 PM
Folks, you know your computer won't melt if you boot from an external drive or other partition on your startup drive that's running an older operating system.

A little inconvenient, but the last PPC machine was made 5+ years ago...you knew the day would come when the current OS would no longer support PPC software. At least you have options.

techwhiz
Jun 13, 2011, 08:44 PM
If the version of Quicken available now on the Mac had all the features of the 2005 version, I'd buy it now. It doesn't. They dropped support for QIF in the latest Mac version and you are stuck with an internal format that can't export and worse reporting than was available in the 6 year old version.

If it worked, I'd buy it. If anything worked I'd buy it.
iBank lacks some of the features I need. I'll try MoneyDance .
If you have a solution for Quicken, I'll stop moaning and buy it.
Otherwise; please don't pontificate about people wanting the latest OS but not wanting to spend the money on the apps.


What I find amusing is that there are people who want to upgrade to the latest operating system... But not update to the latest Quicken! Makes no sense. One of my printers is still using Illustrator 9 in OS 9. God help her.

"I want the latest, moistest cake, with all the best ingredients, with the oldest, crustiest, most stale frosting!" lol

Thunderhawks
Jun 13, 2011, 08:49 PM
Farewell to UT99... wait, wtf? NO: farewell LION.

Apple should have Rosetta. I can live without Lion. I can NOT live without the dozen old programs I continue to use, and I'd rather not spend $2500 for new versions after $29.95 for a buggy OS that won't be consumer ready until late next year.

Anybody who has followed Apple's OS history and upgraded just MUST know that every major OS change requires re-buying some programs or running two
systems for a while.

They also MUST know that it takes a while before Lion will be stable. Thank you to all the early adopters testing for me what works and when Lion will be stable.

I don't subscribe to the MUST upgrade all the time to the latest.
Why, if everything works?

The time to upgrade is usually when the hardware goes to a new generation

powers74
Jun 13, 2011, 08:49 PM
If it worked, I'd buy it.

Oh, gosh, yeah, QIF, I forgot about that. Sorry, man. Crusty frosting for you.

aliensporebomb
Jun 13, 2011, 09:03 PM
That's the end for the great little JAM editing software then.
Roxio has kept it going in a weak and almost worthless form as an extra in Toast, but the old stand-alone version was/is far superior.
A real problem as far as I'm concerned because I use this a lot for micro-crossfaded micro-edits and have found no better way of doing this.

Other stuff too - as a CD audio producer when not doing my day gig it let me
do things that nothing else would. My recent CD release would have been a bit
closer to what I was hoping for in terms of sequencing with it that's for sure.

ten-oak-druid
Jun 13, 2011, 09:10 PM
Rosetta was clearly being phased out.

Go install Snow Leopard and you will notice it is not part of the standard installation. You have to customize the installation and choose it or install later when you try to run older software and cannot.

BornAgainMac
Jun 13, 2011, 09:13 PM
Toy Sight will be missed. That was a cool gaming idea that for some reason never was updated for Intel processors.

NAG
Jun 13, 2011, 09:16 PM
Oh, gosh, yeah, QIF, I forgot about that. Sorry, man. Crusty frosting for you.

Why I'm glad I cut loose from Quicken around the time of the Intel switch. I had a feeling they were going to massively screw this transition up and what do you know. Not that it helps people stuck with Quicken now but I just feel like you're going to have to bite the bullet sooner or later because they've shown time and time again they just don't care about you.

Conner36
Jun 13, 2011, 09:31 PM
I dont know about everyone else but I run sheepshaver just to build marathon maps. I'm never gonna give up great games cause of an os. Great games shouldn't have to be re-bought to "update" the experience. So what... do I care that I now have to spare a few gigs on my TB external drive and boot just to play PPC games? When you're in a gaming mood its a half-minute boot compared of the hours of upcoming game time don't matter much.
This new approach I think will keep me focused and more distraction free... now if we could only get an update to make this internet thing obsolete I might get back to work :)

lpetrich
Jun 13, 2011, 09:37 PM
The main thing I'd want continued PowerPC support for is Mark Widholm's MathPad (http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mwidholm/MathPad/), a simple graphing-calculator app.

It's a PPC Carbon app, so it will need some rewriting to use Cocoa.

Amdahl
Jun 13, 2011, 10:09 PM
At the time of the PPC/Intel change, Steve Jobs announced Rosetta as a stop-gap so that PPC applications wouldn't be immediately redundant. But such measures can only be short-term. I'm amazed that Apple's kept it up this long.

No, Rosetta was not a 'stop-gap' to prevent PPC apps from being immediately redundant.

Rosetta was a requirement to keep Mac OS X alive so that it could survive a heart transplant courtesy of Intel. No Rosetta = no Mac OS X on Intel. It couldn't have been done otherwise, or it wouldn't have been called OS X.

As for why Apple drops Core 1 chips and Rosetta: Because they can, and because it makes you buy new stuff. There is no yesterday in the world of Steve.

What Are You Going to Buy Today? :apple::apple::apple:

Nostromo
Jun 13, 2011, 10:17 PM
There goes my old version of Final Draft.

Now I have to upgrade.

laflores
Jun 13, 2011, 10:19 PM
Ok, I have several PPC software running:

DivX (probably there is a newer version that I haven't installed)
Microsoft Query (I don't know what it does, so I don't really care)
Robolab (software for my Lego Mindstorms set, I will miss it but I can use it in PC)
Spyder2PRO (color calibration software)

The only thing I really need is the Spyder2PRO, does anybody knows if there is another software that I can use with the Spyder 2 calibration hardware?