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TigerPRO
Mar 24, 2005, 08:21 PM
It seems to always happen after Apple releases an upgrade to Mac OS X: the Apple support forums will be filled to the gills with critical bugs galore. My comment is that this seems to be a poor pattern with new software releases from Apple. In other words they seemed rushed most of the time. Because I seem to remember certain major issues about Panther's initial exhibition; FileVault to name one example.

My question is, how do the developers feel about how solid Tiger is in it's latter stages compared to what Panther was. Is it better, worse, or about the same? My worry is with such a huge update, that we will see the greatest number of problems ever. Because it seems no matter how hard all these beta testers work at ironing out bugs, there is always a large group of people reporting huge problems after installing it. Why is that?



broken_keyboard
Mar 24, 2005, 09:04 PM
I thought they weren't allowed to talk about unreleased stuff.
Are you trying to get your Macrumors buddies in trouble?

daveL
Mar 24, 2005, 09:11 PM
Well why don't you tell us "TigerPRO"?

grapes911
Mar 24, 2005, 09:13 PM
You're the "TigerPro", you tell us. :D

EDIT: Beat me too it

Actually, a Dev told me that tiger is pretty much done. Its really just a few bugs on specific machines. Like he said the 14' iBook as some weird random issure. I really don't know how true any of this is, but I figured I'd pass it along.

TigerPRO
Mar 24, 2005, 09:14 PM
I thought they weren't allowed to talk about unreleased stuff.
Are you trying to get your Macrumors buddies in trouble?

Someone make the correction if I'm wrong, but there should be violation in merely discussing "how one feels" about Tiger in general. In case you missunderstood, this disscusion is about the development process, not the development itself.

TigerPRO
Mar 24, 2005, 09:22 PM
You're the "TigerPro", you tell us. :D

LOL. This is going to drive me crazy. I actually conjured up the moniker "TigerPRO" way back in 1998. That was way before Mac OS X, and even before I started using Apple computers. But several months ago that coincidence did occur to me. I can't wait until Tiger is over. :o

By the way, its "TigerPRO" not "TigerPro". That's an important distinction. Its kinda like saying "Ipod" instead of "iPod". I'm sure you see now. ;)

Bradley W
Mar 24, 2005, 10:02 PM
_

screensaver400
Mar 24, 2005, 10:53 PM
Tiger is nearly ready. I'm currently running 393, which is from the end of February. I felt confident enough to upgrade from Panther on my main machine, and haven't felt the need to go back. Its a great system. True, there are problems. Safari seems to be the worst in this build... Its pretty unstable, and sometimes has trouble with large forms (I had to write this in Camino). Also, after 3 or 4 days of constant use, the finder tends to break. It will not display anything, and requires a reboot.

All in all, it feels a lot like the Windows XP machine I switched from, and is miles ahead of the Windows ME days stability-wise. Its not up to 10.3.8 standards, but its still good.

BWhaler
Mar 25, 2005, 02:44 AM
My understanding is the latest seed is solid with one major (known) bug.

I think Tiger is going to be fantastic and solid. People in the forums have been a little harsh lately, imho.

gopher
Mar 25, 2005, 09:02 AM
One thing which I haven't heard has been addressed, which I hope people take heed is the Firewire conundrum:

http://www.macmaps.com/firewirebug2.html

A few basic lessons learned from the conundrum:

1. If you are uncertain that your drive has a bridge whose firmware has been updated, and there is no update available from the vendor who made your drive's case you should assume that one of the problems the conundrum exhibits may happen to your drive.

2. You can remove the hard drive and put it in a Granite Digital case, and avoid the conundrum altogether.

3. You can buy an OWC hard drive and/or LaCie drive and feel comfortable that it too will not face the problem.

4. The conundrum will exhibit one of the following behaviors

- inability to leave the drive powered on while restarting, shutting down, or starting up the computer (including forced restarts). Doing so, will make the drive invisible to all but Prosoft Data Rescue upon the next time you see the drive assuming it is kept connected to the same Firewire/IDE bridge.

- inability to leave the drive connected (on or off) when updating the operating system using one of Apple's updater programs. Doing so, will make the drive invisible to all but Prosoft Data Rescue upon the next time you see the drive assuming it is kept connected to the same Firewire/IDE bridge.

5. Occasionally these drives will become visible again if moved to another Firewire/IDE bridge that does not suffer from the conundrum.

Before 10.3 the conundrum did not show up. Afterwards, it appears that many Firewire vendors did not make their firmware up to date to avoid these issues. I've oft asked Apple at http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/ to fix these issues, but they are still experienced by people in 10.3.8.

What really is messed up about this is that it is Apple which licenses the Firewire technology to all vendors who use it. You would have thought Apple would revoke the license to those members who don't keep their bridges up to date. Unfortunately Apple has not done so, and the customers are left in the lurch.

rory2002ie
Mar 25, 2005, 09:50 AM
I've been running the latest Tiger Build 8a420 and it seems to be pretty rock solid, I havent had any problems at all, except with being unable to sync with .mac which is a temporary issue according to the seed note. My only other niggle is that there can be a slight pause waiting for some widgets in dashboard to update, spotlight performace has improved in the lsat couple of builds and I cant fault it now , it seems all good!!

topgunn
Mar 25, 2005, 10:56 AM
Because it seems no matter how hard all these beta testers work at ironing out bugs, there is always a large group of people reporting huge problems after installing it. Why is that?
It's simple math really. When you go from a user base of hundreds to a user base of 10's of thousands, you are bound to discover a number of bugs that were previously undiscovered.

ziwi
Mar 25, 2005, 11:10 AM
It's simple math really. When you go from a user base of hundreds to a user base of 10's of thousands, you are bound to discover a number of bugs that were previously undiscovered.


;) Yeah, just ask MSFT - they let every PC user beta test for them ;)

gopher
Mar 25, 2005, 11:16 AM
It seems to always happen after Apple releases an upgrade to Mac OS X: the Apple support forums will be filled to the gills with critical bugs galore. My comment is that this seems to be a poor pattern with new software releases from Apple. In other words they seemed rushed most of the time. Because I seem to remember certain major issues about Panther's initial exhibition; FileVault to name one example.

My question is, how do the developers feel about how solid Tiger is in it's latter stages compared to what Panther was. Is it better, worse, or about the same? My worry is with such a huge update, that we will see the greatest number of problems ever. Because it seems no matter how hard all these beta testers work at ironing out bugs, there is always a large group of people reporting huge problems after installing it. Why is that?

In addition, it is not so much a question of how healthy is Tiger, but how healthy is the system people are putting Tiger on. If there issues that are left unresolved on the system from the previous update, don't expect them to magically be solved by Tiger. Many people make the mistake thinking that issues with their computer will disappear if they update their system. Unfortunately there are certain issues, which no amount of software updates will solve. They are among the following:

1. Corrupted cache files
2. Corrupted preference files
3. Corrupted fonts
4. Third party system enhancement utilities that are dependent on the code within the operating system remaining the same. Programs like those found on http://www.unsanity.com/ and http://www.resexcellence.com are especially suspect.
5. Peripherals that never got proper firmware updates to speak correctly to Apple's own specs.
6. Bad memory. RAM can go bad at anytime.
7. Bad power manager.
8. Clock battery needs replacement.
9. System firmware needs updating. This is a biggy. Someone updating from 10.1.5 or earler to Tiger directly will have to take heed of these firmware updates:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86117

Apply them while booted into Mac OS 9, or face a blank videoscreen that can only be reverted if they have external display support or swap out the motherboard for one with an updated firmware. Apple's 10.2 and later installer disks themselves don't always detect old firmware before corrupting the system. Apple's software update won't always tell you if you need a newer firmware update.


10. The directory may be damaged, and that is what is slowing your system down:

http://www.macmaps.com/directoryfaq.html

The important thing to recognize is when doing any update, follow these procedures on Mac OS X:

http://www.macmaps.com/upgradefaq.html

And you should avoid having problems. Those who don't follow those procedures are the most likely to have problems.

TigerPRO
Mar 25, 2005, 05:18 PM
It's simple math really. When you go from a user base of hundreds to a user base of 10's of thousands, you are bound to discover a number of bugs that were previously undiscovered.

Good point. Yet there is still such a thing as sloppy coding. You shouldn't need to beta test to weed out every bug. To an extend, good programming can eliminate many problems from the start. I view beta testing as a means of finding "unantisipated conflicts between functions". But the better you are at antisipating those, the less you need to go back and patch them up later. You're absolutely right that more users will always reveal more problems, I'm just pointing out that it's possible to have good solid software without needing to beta test and stumble into every bug. Good development can solve problems without needing to experience them.

grapes911
Mar 25, 2005, 05:29 PM
Good point. Yet there is still such a thing as sloppy coding. You shouldn't need to beta test to weed out every bug. To an extend, good programming can eliminate many problems from the start. I view beta testing as a means of finding "unantisipated conflicts between functions". But the better you are at antisipating those, the less you need to go back and patch them up later. You're absolutely right that more users will always reveal more problems, I'm just pointing out that it's possible to have good solid software without needing to beta test and stumble into every bug. Good development can solve problems without needing to experience them.

You are right, a good Software Engineering Process can eliminate many unnecessary defects. But...no Software Engineer would ever say that a good process doesn't require much testing (I'm not implying you said this, I'm just clarifying). In fact, a good Software Engineering Process will require more testing than someone just programming. Software Engineers know that defects (defects is the SE term, not bugs) are impossible to totally eliminate and maintenance is the largest part of the life cycle of software.

Platform
Mar 26, 2005, 01:07 AM
My understanding is the latest seed is solid with one major (known) bug.

I think Tiger is going to be fantastic and solid. People in the forums have been a little harsh lately, imho.

What is this major "known" Bug :confused:

BWhaler
Mar 26, 2005, 02:18 AM
What is this major "known" Bug :confused:

The current disk image doesn't install on 14" iBooks.

TigerPRO
Mar 26, 2005, 08:08 AM
The current disk image doesn't install on 14" iBooks.

So it does work on a 12 inch iBook? That's really odd.

patseguin
Mar 26, 2005, 08:39 AM
So it does work on a 12 inch iBook? That's really odd.

Yeah really. Why would that be?

Bear
Mar 26, 2005, 08:47 AM
The current disk image doesn't install on 14" iBooks.It's only some models of the 14" from what I read. And I hope people remember this information is about a prelease version of Tiger.

Remember when you are dealing with a released version of Tiger you need to forget about all the different beta bugs as they all should have been fixed by the time it's released.

Of course that doesn't prevent the released version of Tiger from having its own set of bugs.

Hey Moderator(s): Maybe all the threads about bugs and info that is not correct in the released version of Tiger should be marked aas pre-release info and locked so people coming alng after Tiger is released won't get confused. (Yeah sure. I know some people will ignore anything but what they want to see.)

ct77
Mar 26, 2005, 09:01 AM
All in all, it feels a lot like the Windows XP machine I switched from...

Yuck. :eek:

You're not serious, are you? ;)

TigerPRO
Mar 26, 2005, 09:19 AM
In addition, it is not so much a question of how healthy is Tiger, but how healthy is the system people are putting Tiger on. If there issues that are left unresolved on the system from the previous update, don't expect them to magically be solved by Tiger. Many people make the mistake thinking that issues with their computer will disappear if they update their system. Unfortunately there are certain issues, which no amount of software updates will solve. They are among the following:

1. Corrupted cache files
2. Corrupted preference files
3. Corrupted fonts
4. Third party system enhancement utilities that are dependent on the code within the operating system remaining the same. Programs like those found on http://www.unsanity.com/ and http://www.resexcellence.com are especially suspect.
5. Peripherals that never got proper firmware updates to speak correctly to Apple's own specs.

In your opinion, is it possible that something could be done within Mac OS X to prevent these things from happening, or at least detect and fix them automatically?

I know what you mean about Firewire firmware, because I had some serious issues involving an external hard drive. But my only observation and complaint would be, even when problems with external peripherals occur, they should not bring down the whole system. For example, my issue happened when I plugged two particular firewire devices into the system at the same time. But even when I disconnected them, OS X would still remain "wacky" as if it couldn't just let go and forget the problem. Even to the point where I couldn't shut down the computer without using the power button.

That's always been one of the key differeneces between Windows and OS X, that when something doesn't work, the system won't lock up because it isn't prepared to deal with things not working. However I think Mac OS X is starting to need more refinement in this area.

Bear
Mar 26, 2005, 09:22 AM
In your opinion, is it possible that something could be done within Mac OS X to prevent these things from happening, or at least detect and fix them automatically?In my opinion, a lot of the caches should be cleaned out on a major OS upgrade anyway. A lot of stuff has changed, so a lot of the caches would be invalid anyway.

screensaver400
Mar 26, 2005, 11:13 AM
All in all, it feels a lot like the Windows XP machine I switched from...
Yuck. :eek:

You're not serious, are you? ;)

Yes, I am, stability-wise. Considering that I had a pretty well maintained XP machine, not some Slickdeals Dell POS. Remember, 95% of people live with Windows every day. I don't think its much of an insult to call a pre-release version of an OS that is 2 builds old comparable to an OS that has been out for 4 years and through two service packs.

TigerPRO
Mar 26, 2005, 11:23 AM
I don't think its much of an insult to call a pre-release version of an OS that is 2 builds old comparable to an OS that has been out for 4 years and through two service packs.

It's no insult at all. But in fact it's not even funny; it's hilarious! lol.

gopher
Mar 26, 2005, 03:16 PM
In your opinion, is it possible that something could be done within Mac OS X to prevent these things from happening, or at least detect and fix them automatically?
Check my FAQ:

http://www.macmaps.com/Macosxspeed.html

It covers every avenue of possible corruptions and how to fix them if you suspect them.


I know what you mean about Firewire firmware, because I had some serious issues involving an external hard drive. But my only observation and complaint would be, even when problems with external peripherals occur, they should not bring down the whole system. For example, my issue happened when I plugged two particular firewire devices into the system at the same time. But even when I disconnected them, OS X would still remain "wacky" as if it couldn't just let go and forget the problem. Even to the point where I couldn't shut down the computer without using the power button. They should not bring down the entire system, that's true, and most of the time they don't. Sometimes only a force quit with command-option-escape is necessary. Sometimes it is proof that you need more quality RAM or disk space. But Mac OS X works best on a system that doesn't have any gremlins on it. These stability issues are ones I've only seen on other people's machines. Not mine, since I always follow the upgrade process to the letter.


That's always been one of the key differeneces between Windows and OS X, that when something doesn't work, the system won't lock up because it isn't prepared to deal with things not working. However I think Mac OS X is starting to need more refinement in this area.

Well Windows can be brought down much more easily, and frequently not due to any user input. A virus, spyware, or adware can bring down Windows quite easily, and it wasn't because the user wasn't cautious when upgrading, it was because they left their security open gates open which Microsoft does by default. Macs on the other hand do not. A big advantage Macs have over Windows is most issues are internal to the machine itself, and have nothing to do with external influences besides the immediate peripherals. That makes them a lot easier to track down. You know if you just installed XYZ software or hardware. You don't know which e-mail attachment loaded in your system a virus, or which popup window took down your Windows machine.

The unfortunate thing is many third party hardware don't follow the industry specs, and that is where things get into trouble.

TigerPRO
Mar 27, 2005, 01:33 PM
That's a very useful and well researched FAQ you've got there. Thanks!

gopher
Mar 27, 2005, 02:00 PM
Thank you for the feedback!