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MacRumors
Jun 14, 2011, 12:19 AM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/14/nokia-enters-into-patent-license-agreement-with-apple/)


Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/) and Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/14/nokia-and-apple-end-patent-litigation/) reports that Nokia has entered into a patent license agreement with Apple. From the press release: Nokia announced that it has signed a patent license agreement with Apple. The agreement will result in settlement of all patent litigation between the companies, including the withdrawal by Nokia and Apple of their respective complaints to the US International Trade Commission.

The financial structure of the agreement consists of a one-time payment payable by Apple and on-going royalties to be paid by Apple to Nokia for the term of the agreement. The specific terms of the contract are confidential.Nokia first filed a patent suit (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/10/22/nokia-files-iphone-related-suit-against-apple-regarding-wireless-patents/) against Apple in October 2009 and the dispute has escalated since then with the two companies filing multiple new claims against each other. This should end one of the Apple's biggest patent disputes, but many others remain active.

Article Link: Nokia Enters Into Patent License Agreement with Apple (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/14/nokia-enters-into-patent-license-agreement-with-apple/)



skinned66
Jun 14, 2011, 12:25 AM
Good. Now focus on making your stuff better.

sciwizam
Jun 14, 2011, 12:31 AM
So, we can make calls now?:p

macduke
Jun 14, 2011, 12:32 AM
Good. Now focus on making your stuff better.

I assume you're speaking to Nokia?

macnisse
Jun 14, 2011, 12:34 AM
So now everything is back at square one...

CIA
Jun 14, 2011, 12:35 AM
Unexpected, but good I guess. Seems like this will help Apple more then Nokia in the short term. IF Nokia somehow comes back to life with it's WP7 push, then it might hurt Apple a little in the long run. Considering how fast this whole sector is moving most of these patents might just be worthless in 5 years anyway.

macsamillionjoe
Jun 14, 2011, 12:38 AM
Amazing how the apple fanboys bash samsung and other companies for "stealing ideas" but fail to realize apple itself took something from another company...:confused:

jca666us
Jun 14, 2011, 12:38 AM
I see that Apple didn't license their patents to Nokia.

I'd guess that this settlement was Nokia's idea - possibly to take Apple's original offer of fair and reasonable payment for access to nokia's patents.

portishead
Jun 14, 2011, 12:38 AM
I assume you're speaking to Nokia?

No reason you can't apply that to both companies.

lilo777
Jun 14, 2011, 12:38 AM
OK, so Apple therefore admitted that they were wrong. Now lets hear from LTDs of this forum how they are going to spin this. They have been claiming all along that Apple was the "innovator" here and Nokia was in the wrong.

Bonte
Jun 14, 2011, 12:39 AM
If MS buys Nokia Apple would not need to pay a fee, maybe something is up.

Apple always wanted to pay, the dispute was about the price of the royalties.

ThisIsNotMe
Jun 14, 2011, 12:40 AM
Probably because Nokia ended up rolling with Windows Mobile instead of Android.

caspersoong
Jun 14, 2011, 12:41 AM
Great that Nokia is wise enough to avoid losing the lawsuit which was highly probable.

jav6454
Jun 14, 2011, 12:42 AM
Its weird that Nokia did not license any Apple patents.... however that said I bet the whole deal would have ended in a M.A.D. situation.

lilo777
Jun 14, 2011, 12:43 AM
Great that Nokia is wise enough to avoid losing the lawsuit which was highly probable.

If this was highly probable then Apple must be the idiots here. Why would they agree to pay Nokia otherwise?


Its weird that Nokia did not license any Apple patents.... however that said I bet the whole deal would have ended in a M.A.D. situation.

Apple has very few patents and most of those are useless. It appears that there has never been the case where Apple would be able to sue someone in court for use of their patent and win. Their patents usually get invalidated by courts because of prior arts or being too obvious.

celo48
Jun 14, 2011, 12:48 AM
Nokia? What is Nokia? A Japanese sumo wrestler?

lilo777
Jun 14, 2011, 12:49 AM
Nokia? What is Nokia? A Japanese sumo wrestler?

No, it's the company that invented your iPhone (for the most part).

celo48
Jun 14, 2011, 12:54 AM
No, it's the company that invented your iPhone (for the most part).

Yeah, they invented but such a STUPID company never put into market. Thief Apple stupid Nokia.

macsamillionjoe
Jun 14, 2011, 12:55 AM
My oh my have times have flied by.. I remember reading this thread 2 yrs ago...
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=807247&page=11
A lot of desperate people back then wishing that apple pays Nokia so they don't lose thier Iphone..

lilo777
Jun 14, 2011, 12:56 AM
Yeah, they invented but such a STUPID company never put into market. Thief Apple stupid Nokia.

Wrong again. Nokia sells much more cell phones (and more smart phones) than Apple.

RodThePlod
Jun 14, 2011, 12:57 AM
Good. Now draw a line under it and move on...

RTP.

macsamillionjoe
Jun 14, 2011, 12:58 AM
Wrong again. Nokia sells much more cell phones (and more smart phones) than Apple.
Let him be..

celo48
Jun 14, 2011, 12:58 AM
Wrong again. Nokia sells much more cell phones (and more smart phones) than Apple.

Yes, yes I know they still sell the most phones in the world. 1000 million models of phones and cheap. Duh, of course they will sell the most phones. Who cares? They suck Apple's ass with smartphones.

celo48
Jun 14, 2011, 01:02 AM
Let him be.. He probably doesn't even realize that people use cell phones outside of the U.S.. Hence why he doesn't know anything about Nokia..

I used to own ALL Nokia phones all my life until Apple came in the picture. Not to mention I may be living in US but I have seen from Addis Ababa to Dubai, from Paris to Prague. I would not talk about knowing things out of US if I were you.

Jerome Morrow
Jun 14, 2011, 01:06 AM
OK, so Apple therefore admitted that they were wrong. Now lets hear from LTDs of this forum how they are going to spin this. They have been claiming all along that Apple was the "innovator" here and Nokia was in the wrong.

More likely Nokia cowered under pressure of Apple's patents and Apple was willing to pay from the start, just not the insane amount Nokia wanted. So what's your point here.

unlinked
Jun 14, 2011, 01:06 AM
No, it's the company that invented your iPhone (for the most part).

You are thinking of Samsung.

lilo777
Jun 14, 2011, 01:07 AM
You are thinking of Samsung.

That too but the proof of this will come a little later ;)


More likely Nokia cowered under pressure of Apple's patents and Apple was willing to pay from the start, just not the insane amount Nokia wanted. So what's your point here.

Yes, Apple's patents were so strong that they (Apple) decided to pay Nokia. Did I get it right?

cyantist
Jun 14, 2011, 01:10 AM
Either way, it sure is nice to have all the money in the world.. Makes all your problems go away..

celo48
Jun 14, 2011, 01:15 AM
I bought a Nokia N91 in 2006. Great phone right? Wrong. It stopped playing MP3s, started to do weird stuff after few months. I sent the phone to Nokia. They could not fix it. They did not offer me a new one. They adjusted the months I used the phone and gave me a refund.

I again purchased Nokia after this. The phone died on me when I was doing the software update. A SIMPLE update. That was my last Nokia.

Thanks to Apple for putting a phone in the market that never gave me problems and if it did, they would just replace it with a new one. Btw, the software updates never killed my phone.

Nokia is the most stupid company. They could have RULED the cellphone market forever. They had all the opportunity but they decided to put millions of phone models instead of improving their software.

inkswamp
Jun 14, 2011, 01:19 AM
Yes, Apple's patents were so strong that they (Apple) decided to pay Nokia. Did I get it right?

Not quite but then again, you're not really trying very hard. The first step is to follow these things from the start. You haven't been following this story, have you?

Here's the basic rundown. Nokia wanted to charge Apple exorbitant fees for the use of some patents, much more than they were charging other licensees. Apple demanded that they charge a fair price and refused to pay. Nokia sues, Apple countersues... and then suddenly all lawsuits are gone and Apple is licensing Nokia's patents.

Now logically, what do you think happened behind-the-scenes? This probably isn't a win for either side. Nokia probably caved on their fees and Apple agreed to license the patents at a fair price and drop their counter-suits.

You have a better take on this? I doubt it but I'd love to hear it.

sciwizam
Jun 14, 2011, 01:26 AM
Not quite but then again, you're not really trying very hard. The first step is to follow these things from the start. You haven't been following this story, have you?

Here's the basic rundown. Nokia wanted to charge Apple exorbitant fees for the use of some patents, much more than they were charging other licensees. Apple demanded that they charge a fair price and refused to pay. Nokia sues, Apple countersues... and then suddenly all lawsuits are gone and Apple is licensing Nokia's patents.

Now logically, what do you think happened behind-the-scenes? This probably isn't a win for either side. Nokia probably caved on their fees and Apple agreed to license the patents at a fair price and drop their counter-suits.

You have a better take on this? I doubt it but I'd love to hear it.

Since the financials are not public, I'm not sure we can come to that conclusion.

lilo777
Jun 14, 2011, 01:26 AM
Not quite but then again, you're not really trying very hard. The first step is to follow these things from the start. You haven't been following this story, have you?

Here's the basic rundown. Nokia wanted to charge Apple exorbitant fees for the use of some patents, much more than they were charging other licensees. Apple demanded that they charge a fair price and refused to pay. Nokia sues, Apple countersues... and then suddenly all lawsuits are gone and Apple is licensing Nokia's patents.

Now logically, what do you think happened behind-the-scenes? This probably isn't a win for either side. Nokia probably caved on their fees and Apple agreed to license the patents at a fair price and drop their counter-suits.

You have a better take on this? I doubt it but I'd love to hear it.

There is simply not enough information to even speculate on this one. How do you know that it was not Apple who caved? This would break a deadlock too. But that's not that important. Nobody knows what the fair price is anyways (it's subjective). What we do know now is that Nokia is an innovator here and Apple is the copy-master (to trivialize the things a little). Because some people firmly believed that the opposite was true and Nokia should pay Apple.

NoNothing
Jun 14, 2011, 01:26 AM
OK, so Apple therefore admitted that they were wrong. Now lets hear from LTDs of this forum how they are going to spin this. They have been claiming all along that Apple was the "innovator" here and Nokia was in the wrong.

I don't think anyone said that. Apple just wanted the same "fair and reasonable" rates others got. I don't think anybody assumed Apple was not going to pay for the use of the tech.

dr Dunkel
Jun 14, 2011, 01:28 AM
OK, so Apple therefore admitted that they were wrong. Now lets hear from LTDs of this forum how they are going to spin this. They have been claiming all along that Apple was the "innovator" here and Nokia was in the wrong.

I don't know how much experience you have in litigation, but in my experience, settlements like these are often based on business cases and valuation of evidence. It is also valuable not to have a open judgement if the plaintiff and defendant are to do business in the future. Who were "right" is often secondary.

NoNothing
Jun 14, 2011, 01:30 AM
It appears that there has never been the case where Apple would be able to sue someone in court for use of their patent and win. Their patents usually get invalidated by courts because of prior arts or being too obvious.

I can show you one that proves you 100% wrong.

dejo
Jun 14, 2011, 01:34 AM
Amazing how the apple fanboys bash samsung and other companies for "stealing ideas" but fail to realize apple itself took something from another company...:confused:
Which fanboys would these be, specifically? Otherwise, lay off the strawman arguments.

twilson
Jun 14, 2011, 01:34 AM
Amazing how the apple fanboys bash samsung and other companies for "stealing ideas" but fail to realize apple itself took something from another company...:confused:

This mostly about Nokia's unfair demands to licence patents included in the GSM standard in the Exact same way to ALL PARTIES. Nokia were demanding more from Apple than any other vendor (which isn't allowed for patents submitted to be part of a standard).

More likely Nokia cowered under pressure of Apple's patents and Apple was willing to pay from the start, just not the insane amount Nokia wanted. So what's your point here.

Exactly, I'd don't think Nokia could have been given more than others had agreed to, because of the legal implications for a standards patent.

Let's not forget, Apple WANTED TO PAY THE SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE, all along. Nokia were just trying to be greedy!

lilo777
Jun 14, 2011, 01:40 AM
I don't think anyone said that. Apple just wanted the same "fair and reasonable" rates others got. I don't think anybody assumed Apple was not going to pay for the use of the tech.

I am glad we agree that Apple "borrowed" a lot of Nokia creations and not vice versa. It is indicative that cross-licensing agreement is not part of this deal. Apparently Nokia did not find anything they would need to patent from Apple.

twilson
Jun 14, 2011, 01:40 AM
Yes, Apple's patents were so strong that they (Apple) decided to pay Nokia. Did I get it right?

Apple wanted to pay, and always knew they'd have to. That was never in question.

What was in question was why Nokia wanted to license their standards based patents to Apple under different terms to those they'd agreed to abide by when they submitted their patents as part of a standard.

ZipZapRap
Jun 14, 2011, 01:41 AM
I used to own ALL Nokia phones

I lol'd

teknishn
Jun 14, 2011, 01:42 AM
Lets be perfectly clear about this....

1, this is a business as usual deal between both these companies. 2, it is good for both companies. And 3, Apple is still playing shuffleboard with Nokias genitals. Not being a fanboy, it's business and just compare the 2 balance sheets for a minute.

twilson
Jun 14, 2011, 01:47 AM
I am glad we agree that Apple "borrowed" a lot of Nokia creations and not vice versa. It is indicative that cross-licensing agreement is not part of this deal. Apparently Nokia did not find anything they would need to patent from Apple.

Stop all the blind trolling, and open your eyes. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE A PHONE USING THE GSM STANDARD WITHOUT NEEDING TO LICENSE NOKIA'S PATENTS IN QUESTION!

That's why Nokia MUST offer "Fair, Reasonable and NON-DISCRIMNATORY" terms To these patents (something they were trying to avoid when licensing to Apple).

HiRez
Jun 14, 2011, 01:48 AM
As long as the cost isn't insane, it's best for Apple to license and move on (in the case of large companies like Nokia who also hold many patents). Getting hung up in these patent minefields costs resources and creates investor uncertainty. It's not like Apple is hurting for cash.

lilo777
Jun 14, 2011, 01:50 AM
Lets be perfectly clear about this....

1, this is a business as usual deal between both these companies. 2, it is good for both companies. And 3, Apple is still playing shuffleboard with Nokias genitals. Not being a fanboy, it's business and just compare the 2 balance sheets for a minute.

Are you sure that Apple is "playing shuffleboard with Nokias genitals" and not with yours? because it's you (as in "Apple customer") who pays those exorbitant prices for iPhone. Well, now Nokia gets to "play shuffleboard with your genitals" a little bit too because every time you pay for iPhone Nokia will be getting their cut.


Stop all the blind trolling, and open your eyes. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE A PHONE USING THE GSM STANDARD WITHOUT NEEDING TO LICENSE NOKIA'S PATENTS IN QUESTION!

That's why Nokia MUST offer "Fair, Reasonable and NON-DISCRIMNATORY" terms To these patents (something they were trying to avoid when licensing to Apple).

Do you really believe that this deal was signed on the terms offered by Apple before? And why do you need to quote what's generally a common knowledge on this forum?

teknishn
Jun 14, 2011, 01:56 AM
Are you sure that Apple is "playing shuffleboard with Nokias genitals" and not with yours? because it's you (as in "Apple customer") who pays those exorbitant prices for iPhone. Well, now Nokia gets to "play shuffleboard with your genitals" a little bit too because every time you pay for iPhone Nokia will be getting their cut.




Do you really believe that this deal was signed on the terms offered by Apple before? And why do you need to quote what's generally a common knowledge on this forum?

Yea, last I looked the iPhone price is on par with any other top end smartphone. Mm k. Good talk seriously don't be ridiculous.

In terms of my shuffleboard comment... Again look at the balance sheets. Apples profits crush Nokia by a factor of 3 to 1 being conservative.... And growing.... And I'm talking just phones.

Claefer
Jun 14, 2011, 02:19 AM
There is simply not enough information to even speculate on this one. How do you know that it was not Apple who caved? This would break a deadlock too. But that's not that important. Nobody knows what the fair price is anyways (it's subjective). What we do know now is that Nokia is an innovator here and Apple is the copy-master (to trivialize the things a little). Because some people firmly believed that the opposite was true and Nokia should pay Apple.

Look up the word innovate.

inkswamp
Jun 14, 2011, 02:22 AM
Are you sure that Apple is "playing shuffleboard with Nokias genitals" and not with yours? because it's you (as in "Apple customer") who pays those exorbitant prices for iPhone. Well, now Nokia gets to "play shuffleboard with your genitals" a little bit too because every time you pay for iPhone Nokia will be getting their cut.

I'm going to nickname you Mr. Ubiquitous because, dude, you are seriously all over the place. :rolleyes:

gnasher729
Jun 14, 2011, 02:27 AM
OK, so Apple therefore admitted that they were wrong. Now lets hear from LTDs of this forum how they are going to spin this. They have been claiming all along that Apple was the "innovator" here and Nokia was in the wrong.

We know that you hate Apple, but as usual you get it wrong. Apple never claimed that Nokia's patents were not valid and that Apple should not pay. What Apple claimed that Nokia's patents were part of phone standards and Nokia had to license them to everyone on the same terms, whereas Nokia tried to charge Apple more money than others.

Now we hear that Apple is licensing the patents and pays some amount of money for them, something which Apple always said it wanted to do anyway.


Lets be perfectly clear about this....

1, this is a business as usual deal between both these companies. 2, it is good for both companies. And 3, Apple is still playing shuffleboard with Nokias genitals. Not being a fanboy, it's business and just compare the 2 balance sheets for a minute.

No, the company that has Nokia by the balls is Microsoft. Important rule for any company: Never, ever hire an ex-Microsoft executive as your CEO.

Oletros
Jun 14, 2011, 02:28 AM
Here's the basic rundown. Nokia wanted to charge Apple exorbitant fees for the use of some patents, much more than they were charging other licensees. Apple demanded that they charge a fair price and refused to pay. Nokia sues, Apple countersues... and then suddenly all lawsuits are gone and Apple is licensing Nokia's patents.

We don't know, this is what Apple said, not necessary the truth.

Nokia were demanding more from Apple than any other vendor (which isn't allowed for patents submitted to be part of a standard).

And you know this because...

Padraig
Jun 14, 2011, 02:34 AM
Image (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/14/nokia-enters-into-patent-license-agreement-with-apple/)


Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/) and Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/14/nokia-and-apple-end-patent-litigation/) reports that Nokia has entered into a patent license agreement with Apple. From the press release:Nokia first filed a patent suit (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/10/22/nokia-files-iphone-related-suit-against-apple-regarding-wireless-patents/) against Apple in October 2009 and the dispute has escalated since then with the two companies filing multiple new claims against each other. This should end one of the Apple's biggest patent disputes, but many others remain active.

Article Link: Nokia Enters Into Patent License Agreement with Apple (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/14/nokia-enters-into-patent-license-agreement-with-apple/)

First line should read that Apple has entered into a patent licence agreement with Nokia. Not the other way round.

Oletros
Jun 14, 2011, 02:35 AM
A good post from Nilay Patel

http://thisismynext.com/2011/06/14/nokia-and-apple-settle-patent-disputes-apple-to-pay-one-time-fee-and-ongoing-license-fees/

unlinked
Jun 14, 2011, 02:39 AM
Since the financials are not public, I'm not sure we can come to that conclusion.

How can something so true be down voted?

teknishn
Jun 14, 2011, 02:39 AM
And you know this because

Try actually reading the lawsuits. Simple case of Apple needing to license gsm patents that Nokia is legally obligated to license at fair price. Apple simply didn't want to pay more than HTC, Samsung, Motorola etc etc. The issue has been resolved in a pretty obvious manner. Sometimes it takes a lot of arm waving to get the right deal done.... Such as this case. End of the day it's really business as usual.

ChazUK
Jun 14, 2011, 02:40 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 2.3.4; en-gb; Nexus S Build/GRJ22) AppleWebKit/533.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile Safari/533.1)

I do wonder if Mr Elop and his pals at Microsoft helped sway things now Nokia are in bed with MS?

I take it if MS ever did buy Nokia (which has turned out to be wrong so far), would that put MS and Apple into collision course at all?

Good to see an end to this one.

teknishn
Jun 14, 2011, 02:41 AM
How can something so true be down voted?

Probably because all publicly traded companies financials are public. Are we in preschool?

sciwizam
Jun 14, 2011, 02:46 AM
Probably because all publicly traded companies financials are public. Are we in preschool?

I was referring to the financial details of the licensing agreement, genius.

Oletros
Jun 14, 2011, 02:49 AM
Try actually reading the lawsuits. Simple case of Apple needing to license gsm patents that Nokia is legally obligated to license at fair price. Apple simply didn't want to pay more than HTC, Samsung, Motorola etc etc. The issue has been resolved in a pretty obvious manner. Sometimes it takes a lot of arm waving to get the right deal done.... Such as this case. End of the day it's really business as usual.


And Nokia said this was not true, so?

Who is telling the truth? Do you know?

teknishn
Jun 14, 2011, 02:50 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 2.3.4; en-gb; Nexus S Build/GRJ22) AppleWebKit/533.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile Safari/533.1)

I do wonder if Mr Elop and his pals at Microsoft helped sway things now Nokia are in bed with MS?

I take it if MS ever did buy Nokia (which has turned out to be wrong so far), would that put MS and Apple into collision course at all?

Good to see an end to this one.

My personal opinion is that Apple is all over MS/Nokia marriage. From a business, not religious, standpoint it's Android that is the big enemy. Any gain by MS/Nokia is likely to cost Android marketshare not Apple. From an IP standpoint, (everyone borrows a little from everyone), but MS does play by the big boys rules. It's google that likes to unconsciencely rip off any and all IP. No surprise that they refuse to indemnify any of their licensees.

mdriftmeyer
Jun 14, 2011, 02:51 AM
This isn't a victory for NOKIA.

This is a win by Apple. Nokia had all but 2 Patents thrown out and the last two only up for review.

Apple won this one.

roadbloc
Jun 14, 2011, 02:51 AM
More likely Nokia cowered under pressure of Apple's patents and Apple was willing to pay from the start, just not the insane amount Nokia wanted. So what's your point here.

Um... wat? They decided to pay Nokia in the end, so how can this be true?

Oletros
Jun 14, 2011, 02:52 AM
Any gain by MS/Nokia is likely to cost Android marketshare not Apple.

Why?

unlinked
Jun 14, 2011, 02:53 AM
Probably because all publicly traded companies financials are public. Are we in preschool?

Okay then. How much are the other manufacturers paying Nokia for the patents in question? I suspect that kind of information is hard to get a hold of but I am prepared to be proven wrong.

And Nokia said this was not true, so?

Who is telling the truth? Do you know?

Probably both. Some reports indicated Nokia wanted a percentage instead of a flat rate. The same deal as other manufacturers but more costly for Apple since they only sell high end phones.

teknishn
Jun 14, 2011, 02:57 AM
And Nokia said this was not true, so?

Who is telling the truth? Do you know?

I'm not sure what the point is debating these details..... I mean with all due respect. We aren't talking any serious $$$ innovation being ripped off here we are talking about gsm standards kit. That Apple needed a license isn't in question..... Just like everyone else. As we stand now there is a deal in place that both sides are happy with. I wouldn't call this a win for anyone. I'd call it business as usual. Better yet I'd call it a win/win for both companies. Now they both can move on with their respective plans.

Why?

Its just my personal opinion. Not saying that is the case for certain. I'm not being biased or anything just calling it like I see it. Apple has their slice and it's growing... I don't think it'll ever be as massive as something as open as Android.... Ever. That's not Apples game. Android has exploded to a pretty huge saturation point. They are everywhere on every carrier x10. To me that means that anybody coming to play that is serious will erode into that and not Apples nich. Again, just my take. Ultimately, I see a healthy market of android #1, Apple #2, and MS, HP, And RIM combining for the last third of the pie.

twilson
Jun 14, 2011, 03:09 AM
Do you really believe that this deal was signed on the terms offered by Apple before? And why do you need to quote what's generally a common knowledge on this forum?

To be honest, it HAS to signed generally under those original terms, because that is all Nokia are ALLOWED to ask for (at least where the GSM-related patents are concerned).

If there's some non-standards related stuff, then sure those terms will most likely be different.

Besides which, despite it being "common knowledge", a lot of people on this forum seem to be disregarding the facts, is all.

Oletros
Jun 14, 2011, 03:11 AM
To be honest, it HAS to signed generally under those original terms, because that is all Nokia are ALLOWED to ask for (at least where the GSM-related patents are concerned).

Do you know what the original terms were?

We only know that Apple said one thing and Nokia another, wew don't know nor the original terms nor the settled terms.

teknishn
Jun 14, 2011, 03:16 AM
To be honest, it HAS to signed generally under those original terms, because that is all Nokia are ALLOWED to ask for (at least where the GSM-related patents are concerned).

If there's some non-standards related stuff, then sure those terms will most likely be different.

Besides which, despite it being "common knowledge", a lot of people on this forum seem to be disregarding the facts, is all.

So totally correct. Never ceases to amaze me that ppl ignore facts and play on fanboyism.

From a pure business standpoint Nokia played this great. They know they need to license the gsm kit, but they decide to F with Apple to open a dialogue on 'other' IP issues. I'm sure the deal left both sides comfortable in more than one way.

peperoni
Jun 14, 2011, 03:22 AM
Hmm... I thought based on the ITC ruling Apple didn't even use any of the Nokia patents. Why is that in the end Apple would pay to Nokia about these patents? Could it be that there's not much going inside ITC than plain old "USA USA USA" chanting? Does EU have a same kind of pro EU ruling entity?

*LTD*
Jun 14, 2011, 03:24 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

I don't think anyone said that. Apple just wanted the same "fair and reasonable" rates others got. I don't think anybody assumed Apple was not going to pay for the use of the tech.

I am glad we agree that Apple "borrowed" a lot of Nokia creations and not vice versa. It is indicative that cross-licensing agreement is not part of this deal. Apparently Nokia did not find anything they would need to patent from Apple.

Who cares at this point.

How about Nokia patenting a friggin clue?

This company is nearly defunct. They're doomed unles WP7 saves them and at this point WP7 barely has any traction, no one really cares about it and carriers are actually pushing customers *away* from the platform. WP7 share has actually been shrinking. Both Nokia and WP7 need to somehow survive into 2012, and *then* consumers need to somehow find it in themselves to actually give a damn.

There's nothing to boast about here regarding Nokia, unless we're applauding stupidity and laziness.

teknishn
Jun 14, 2011, 03:29 AM
Hmm... I thought based on the ITC ruling Apple didn't even use any of the Nokia patents. Why is that in the end Apple would pay to Nokia about these patents? Could it be that there's not much going inside ITC than plain old "USA USA USA" chanting? Does EU have a same kind of pro EU ruling entity?

I know right? I'm starting to think the ITC is on par with the UN. They'll start writing strongly worded letters.

EDIT:

As a former, but still registered developer, I still see this all unfolding from the developers pov.

With Apple you have an absolute juggernaut on the ios side that covers Mac, iPod, iPhone, iPad. Single environment for all. Well established for all. Money pouring in on every front.

For Android you have the easiest to develop for, but you're stuck writing for least common denominator or 15 different screen resolutions and 5 different memory profiles. And let's not get started on completely separate tablet situ. In closing you also have to consider lack of profit with android venture, and other IP related issues. It'll be curious to see where Oracle sends this thing.

MS. You've got visual studio, .Net, silvercloud....now with windows 8 html5 and JavaScript. One phrase.... Sweet mother of Jerusalem. Talk about a hot mess of epic proportions.

HP. You have to love web OS. It's pretty damn nice. Problem.... I don't see how it can or will gain any traction.

RIM. Be strong, I hate to offend any, but the best I can give it is hot garbage.

twilson
Jun 14, 2011, 03:59 AM
A good post from Nilay Patel

http://thisismynext.com/2011/06/14/nokia-and-apple-settle-patent-disputes-apple-to-pay-one-time-fee-and-ongoing-license-fees/

That is indeed one damn fine post!

KnightWRX
Jun 14, 2011, 04:06 AM
Unexpected

It is ? Look at the very first thread about this lawsuit. I sure as heck called it. There was no other outcome possible.

quasinormal
Jun 14, 2011, 04:36 AM
[SIZE=1]

This company is nearly defunct. They're doomed unles WP7 saves them.........

Not everybody wants or needs a smartphone. I personally refuse to pay most of $1K for a phone. I still use a Nokia 1100.

Nokia sold 453 million phones in 2010 with a 32.6% market share.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia

cliveren13
Jun 14, 2011, 04:42 AM
If it wasnt for NOKIA there would be no apple i love my IPHONE 4 thanks to Nokia this phone isd possible and every cell phone maker in the world except probably Motorola who has been around a long time owes Nokia its ok to be an Apple fan boy but right is right nokia doesnt need Apples patents Apple needs Nokias patents to continue to inovate for the upcoming Iphone 5.

Malty
Jun 14, 2011, 04:52 AM
"We are very pleased to have Apple join the growing number of Nokia licensees," said Nokia's chief executive Stephen Elop.

never thought I'd see this quote

:eek:

Popeye206
Jun 14, 2011, 05:00 AM
Its weird that Nokia did not license any Apple patents.... however that said I bet the whole deal would have ended in a M.A.D. situation.

It could be that Apple didn't offer their IP up for licensing. They don't have to and can keep some things proprietary.

Think about... Could be genius. By acknowledging Nokias patents and them acknowledging Apples, but Apple not licensing, Nokia will have to make sure W7 will not use any Apple IP, or they will be open to a nasty lawsuit.

"We are very pleased to have Apple join the growing number of Nokia licensees," said Nokia's chief executive Stephen Elop.

never thought I'd see this quote

:eek:

It's the only way they're going to make any money in the smart Phone space! :p

If it wasnt for NOKIA there would be no apple i love my IPHONE 4 thanks to Nokia this phone isd possible and every cell phone maker in the world except probably Motorola who has been around a long time owes Nokia its ok to be an Apple fan boy but right is right nokia doesnt need Apples patents Apple needs Nokias patents to continue to inovate for the upcoming Iphone 5.

Just so you know... The patents in question have to do with GSM and wifi connections. It's something all smartphones need to patent and have nothing to do with the iPhone 5.

dernhelm
Jun 14, 2011, 05:33 AM
That is indeed one damn fine post!

Agreed. But it certainly sounds a lot less like "Nokia won!" than what you'll see in the rest of the media. Of course, I suppose whether or not Nokia "won" depends on how much they actually received from Apple.

mikerr
Jun 14, 2011, 05:40 AM
Nokia is the most stupid company. They could have RULED the cellphone market forever. They had all the opportunity but they decided to put millions of phone models instead of improving their software.
This.

For years Nokia owned the cellphone market. You just chose a different nokia model as your next phone every time.
Where did they go wrong ? Slow to get non-stylus touchscreens maybe ?


There were so many models, but that wasn't a bad thing - that's something I dislike about apple phones/products - lack of choice.

maflynn
Jun 14, 2011, 05:49 AM
Smart move by apple, they were in a position of weakness given that the 3G chipsets are covered by Nokia's patents.

I love how the apple fanboys spin it that Nokia is buckled under the pressure when apple had more to lose by going to trial not Nokia

kdarling
Jun 14, 2011, 06:24 AM
1) As has been said many times before, Apple's need to license Nokia's patents was never in doubt, only the amount to be paid.

2) Nokia's lawsuit did not demand any Apple patents. Far from it. They left it up to a Delaware jury to decide on royalties, back payments, and how much Apple had hurt Nokia. That's risky business for Apple, who could've ended up owing Nokia triple the original fees in damages. That's billions of dollars.

3) Apple's patent countersuits were not going well. ITC members had written opinions that Nokia had not infringed on Apple patents.

The upshot is:

Nokia can make smartphones without Apple's IP, but Apple cannot make phones at all without Nokia's patents.

mdriftmeyer
Jun 14, 2011, 06:44 AM
Nokia enters into patent license agreement with Apple

Nokia entered in with Apple, not Apple enters into patent license agreement with Nokia.

Apple got what it wanted--a negotiated price and ties to the GSM Patent Pool.

Lennholm
Jun 14, 2011, 06:48 AM
If it wasnt for NOKIA there would be no apple i love my IPHONE 4 thanks to Nokia this phone isd possible and every cell phone maker in the world except probably Motorola who has been around a long time owes Nokia its ok to be an Apple fan boy but right is right nokia doesnt need Apples patents Apple needs Nokias patents to continue to inovate for the upcoming Iphone 5.

Actually, the patents in this case are patents that Nokia bought from Ericsson. So, Ericsson were the inventors and it's really them that all cell phone maker owes (not that this is relevant in the business world anyway so...)

mdriftmeyer
Jun 14, 2011, 06:49 AM
1) As has been said many times before, Apple's need to license Nokia's patents was never in doubt, only the amount to be paid.

2) Nokia's lawsuit did not demand any Apple patents. Far from it. They left it up to a Delaware jury to decide on royalties, back payments, and how much Apple had hurt Nokia. That's risky business for Apple, who could've ended up owing Nokia triple the original fees in damages. That's billions of dollars.

3) Apple's patent countersuits were not going well. ITC members had written opinions that Nokia had not infringed on Apple patents.

The upshot is:

Nokia can make smartphones without Apple's IP, but Apple cannot make phones at all without Nokia's patents.

Sorry, but #3 is flat wrong. All but 2 of NOKIA's patent filings were thrown out by the ITC Court rulings. Only 2 patents did the ITC review panel agree to review.

http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/itc-judge-rules-apple-products-do-not-infring

Apple had 13 patent infringements by Nokia pending.

Apple got a negotiated deal and access to the GSM Patent Pooling that Nokia originally was trying to exempt Apple from and extort them out of a % of their profits.

In short, Nokia didn't win. They settled with Apple by agreeing to welcome Apple aboard with the rest of the handheld manufacturers who licensed that Pool which Siemens is a big player in.

Apple had all their patents held up by ITC Judges.

Stella
Jun 14, 2011, 06:50 AM
The general consensus is that Nokia have won this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13759612
"They can both focus on their businesses now, and the dispute was settled to Nokia's advantage," said Mikael Rautanen at research group Inderes in Helsinki.

Of course, FOSS Patents too.

Now, these two companies can move forward, with Apple rightfully paying Nokia for its technology.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/14/us-nokia-apple-idUSTRE75D0Y720110614
Analysts said Nokia could be estimated to get between 1 and 2 percent of iPhone revenues, which are seen at around $43 billion this year according to a Reuters poll.

NickFalk
Jun 14, 2011, 07:07 AM
The general consensus is that Nokia have won this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13759612
"This is the first positive news from Nokia for a long time. They can both focus on their businesses now, and the dispute was settled to Nokia's advantage," said Mikael Rautanen at research group Inderes in Helsinki.


Now, I haven't got a clue who got the better deal, but don't you think you'd receive a different spin if you interviewed a research group from, say, Cupertino...?

kdarling
Jun 14, 2011, 07:09 AM
By going with Windows Phone 7, Nokia also gained Microsoft IP and the protection of MS cross licensing with Apple.

Apple had no long term case against Nokia, because they'd now be fighting Microsoft.

Stella
Jun 14, 2011, 07:14 AM
Now, I haven't got a clue who got the better deal, but don't you think you'd receive a different spin if you interviewed a research group from, say, Cupertino...?

From what I've read so far this morning, a fair few articles, the general consensus is that this agreement is more favourable to / a win for Nokia [rather than Apple]. So, a research group from Cupertino is a moot point, the consensus wouldn't change.

I haven't seen any such quotes from a research company in Cupertino, so this is pure speculation.

gorgeousninja
Jun 14, 2011, 07:16 AM
Wrong again. Nokia sells much more cell phones (and more smart phones) than Apple.
More phones yes.. Mainly to Africa, and Asia.. losing marketshare in their traditional European base, not popular in America, and I've never even seen a Nokia in Japan, and not sure what your definition of a smartphone is but most statistics put the iPhone as the best selling smartphone in the world, if not the best-selling phone full stop.

KnightWRX
Jun 14, 2011, 07:18 AM
Apple got a negotiated deal and access to the GSM Patent Pooling that Nokia originally was trying to exempt Apple from and extort them out of a % of their profits.

And you're privy to the agreement ? :rolleyes:

Seriously, this spinning of "Apple won!" is ridiculous. First Nokia was never trying to exempt Apple from anything, they wanted Apple to license the patents. Extortion is quite a big accusation given we never had the details of what Nokia asked for and the fact that Apple, unlike other players, didn't have any patents in the GSM Patent pool (so they should be paying more, they are contributing less).

In the end, this is what was going to happen all along, a negotiated deal. Nokia had been negotiating with Apple since 2007 and the lawsuit was just another negotiation tactic.

Anyone spinning this as a "win" or "loss" by Apple or Nokia is wrong.

From what I've read so far this morning, a fair few articles, the general consensus is that this agreement is more favourable to / a win for Nokia [rather than Apple]. So, a research group from Cupertino is a moot point, the consensus wouldn't change.

Except here, where it's "Apple crushed the evil Nokia!" ... and ends up paying for patents they should pay for...

Oletros
Jun 14, 2011, 07:20 AM
that Nokia originally was trying to exempt Apple from and extort them out of a % of their profits.

Accodring to Apple

*LTD*
Jun 14, 2011, 07:22 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPad; U; CPU OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

[SIZE=1]

This company is nearly defunct. They're doomed unles WP7 saves them.........

Not everybody wants or needs a smartphone. I personally refuse to pay most of $1K for a phone. I still use a Nokia 1100.

Nokia sold 453 million phones in 2010 with a 32.6% market share.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia

When Apple entered the market Nokia was over $40 per share. They're now around 6 bucks.

Their market share is dropping faster than Richard Simmons at a San Francisco hot tub party. Their smartphone development has all but ground to a halt. Their CTO just took off on an indefinite leave of absence. They're banking on MS . . . essentially out of the frying pan and into the fire. Go ahead, put your future in Ballmer's hands. Funny stuff.

They're buyout-bait. This was hardly a victory for them. It's like losing a marathon and being given Happy Meal coupons for your trouble.

Of course, they could always go on selling dumphones and that's it. Dumbphones by a dumbcompany. Until smartphones drop in price. Or live off patent money until the well runs dry. The possibilities are endless. No, really. They are.

Thunderhawks
Jun 14, 2011, 07:29 AM
OK, so Apple therefore admitted that they were wrong. Now lets hear from LTDs of this forum how they are going to spin this. They have been claiming all along that Apple was the "innovator" here and Nokia was in the wrong.

No, they didn't admit anything.

They made a smart business decision and so did NOKIA.

In the end it is always about money. To bring these cases to a judgement by a court, many times costs more than some kind of an agreement between two parties.

Plus, it drags on and drags on. It is better to spend ones efforts on other things.

Without knowing all the details of the lawsuit AND the settlement you don't have enough info to make the statement you did.

samcraig
Jun 14, 2011, 07:39 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPad; U; CPU OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)



When Apple entered the market Nokia was over $40 per share. They're now around 6 bucks.

Their market share is dropping faster than Richard Simmons at a San Francisco hot tub party. Their smartphone development has all but ground to a halt. Their CTO just took off on an indefinite leave of absence. They're banking on MS . . . essentially out of the frying pan and into the fire. Go ahead, put your future in Ballmer's hands. Funny stuff.

They're buyout-bait. This was hardly a victory for them. It's like losing a marathon and being given Happy Meal coupons for your trouble.

Of course, they could always go on selling dumphones and that's it. Dumbphones by a dumbcompany. Until smartphones drop in price. Or live off patent money until the well runs dry. The possibilities are endless. No, really. They are.

You're posts are sometimes frustrating - but often times just funny in their insanity. Especially when they are 100 percent biased and disregard facts.

arcite
Jun 14, 2011, 07:44 AM
Yeah, they invented but such a STUPID company never put into market. Thief Apple stupid Nokia.

You sound bitter.

jonnysods
Jun 14, 2011, 07:47 AM
That's the only money Nokia is going to make this year.

Popeye206
Jun 14, 2011, 07:49 AM
Funny... I don't view this as Nokia won or Apple won. I view it as business.

I'm guessing Apple went to Nokia for the license and Nokia wanted too much and negotiations went nowhere. So Apple decided to take the next step which is use legal negotiations to get the price down to where they wanted it to be and this is what this is all about. I've seen this tactic before and generally works.

So this is not about Apple trying to steal technology, or not pay for it. It's not about who won, it's about two companies trying to watch out for their bottom line and leveraging their strengths to get what they need. It's just a process in business. That's all.

chagla
Jun 14, 2011, 07:49 AM
Nokia? What is Nokia? A Japanese sumo wrestler?

you're the most intelligent person i've ever seen online. i'm honored. your mother must be proud of your achievements. :rolleyes:

arcite
Jun 14, 2011, 07:57 AM
That's the only money Nokia is going to make this year.

I used to think that the best phones Nokia made were their dumbphones, but it turns out that Samsung dumbphones are now better and cheaper than their Nokia equivalents. The only thing Nokia has left is their Army of lawyers and a bunch of old patents to troll the industry with. They should just sell themselves to Microsoft and get it over with.

Shivetya
Jun 14, 2011, 08:05 AM
More likely Nokia cowered under pressure of Apple's patents and Apple was willing to pay from the start, just not the insane amount Nokia wanted. So what's your point here.

Uh, no.

More likely Apple realized that in the US they could persist in court nearly forever dragging it out but were going to get curb stomped in Europe and elsewhere overseas.

You don't settle and pay the other guy if you're right. Especially when you have such a large amount of cash to work from. You settle when you know that pile of cash would make any settlement very expensive.

DanteMann
Jun 14, 2011, 08:05 AM
So Apple loses this one. Yes they lost, stop being so blind that you think they won. If they didn't steal anything and were completely in the right, there is no need to pay the other guy. If Samsung ends up paying Apple, will you say Samsung won and got exactly what they planned? Honestly now. Anyways, I just came upon this article. Sorry if someone already posted this. The last part of the article is the most interesting part after this judgement for Nokia.

http://www.businessinsider.com/samsung-buying-nokia-rumor-2011-6

NebulaClash
Jun 14, 2011, 08:18 AM
This isn't a case of one company doing wrong, or one company stealing from another. In today's broken software patent system, this is just the way business is done. You write software, some company somewhere shows up and says, hey, you owe us money for that. You get tired of this game so you buy up a bunch of patents too. Now when the company shows up you say, oh yeah? We say you owe us money too! Then they sit down at a table and figure out a nice settlement where nobody gets hurt.

It's absurd, but that's what we have today. It's not right and wrong, it's simply who has the biggest portfolio of patents and the deepest pockets. It's become a cost of doing business. Nothing personal.

DiamondMac
Jun 14, 2011, 08:25 AM
Amazing how the apple fanboys bash samsung and other companies for "stealing ideas" but fail to realize apple itself took something from another company...:confused:

People on here admit that all the time.

Do you just purposefully overlook those posts or are saying this for the "cool" effect online?

Thunderhawks
Jun 14, 2011, 08:26 AM
Uh, no.

More likely Apple realized that in the US they could persist in court nearly forever dragging it out but were going to get curb stomped in Europe and elsewhere overseas.

You don't settle and pay the other guy if you're right. Especially when you have such a large amount of cash to work from. You settle when you know that pile of cash would make any settlement very expensive.

You couldn't be more wrong.

In business settlements are made all the time, even if one party appears to be in the right and would get a judgement in their favor.

It is just smart business and cheaper to go on and negotiate a good deal. These suits can carry on for years, so whatever you'd eventually gained you paid for already.

As pop eye wrote companies use lawsuits as negotiating tactics.

In the sense neither one of them cares who is called the winner or loser.

Why the press or anti Apple or anti Nokia people need to determine a winner or loser is beyond me.

Headlines to sell more papers?

Gasu E.
Jun 14, 2011, 08:27 AM
If it wasnt for NOKIA there would be no apple i love my IPHONE 4 thanks to Nokia this phone isd possible and every cell phone maker in the world except probably Motorola who has been around a long time owes Nokia its ok to be an Apple fan boy but right is right nokia doesnt need Apples patents Apple needs Nokias patents to continue to inovate for the upcoming Iphone 5.

Nokia doesn't need Apple's patents, but they do need Apple's money. Their profitability is terrible.

Once Nokia was a proud name and a leader. Now they are selling nothing in quantity except commodity products with razor-thin margins. As a once-time leader in cellular handsets, they still own a lot of valuable intellectual property that is needed to built a modern handset. Good for them. Licensing revenues are what is keeping the lights on in Nokia these days.

tbrinkma
Jun 14, 2011, 08:32 AM
And Nokia said this was not true, so?

Who is telling the truth? Do you know?

As I recall from reading the court filings (months ago), Nokia was pretty careful about *not* explicitly saying Apples claims in that regard were false. They put a different spin on the situation (obviously), but I don't recall them claiming Apple was lying about anything in their filing.

kdarling
Jun 14, 2011, 08:36 AM
3) Apple's patent countersuits were not going well. ITC members had written opinions that Nokia had not infringed on Apple patents.Sorry, but #3 is flat wrong. All but 2 of NOKIA's patent filings were thrown out by the ITC Court rulings. Only 2 patents did the ITC review panel agree to review.

Different topics. You're talking about a few Nokia patents; my #3 was about Apple's countersuit patents: ITC staff says Nokia did not violate Apple patents (http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2010/11/itc-staff-side-with-nokia-in-apple-complaint-as-trial-begins.ars)

More importantly, the ITC just decided last week (http://www.bgr.com/2011/05/27/u-s-itc-to-investigate-nokias-patent-case-against-apple/)to re-investigate Nokia's claims against Apple. No doubt that was partly behind Apple's decision to make a deal.

Again, there was no doubt that Apple needed to license Nokia's patents. Apple was simply delaying as long as possible in order to make their profit margin look better for the short term, while denying Nokia helpful income.

tbrinkma
Jun 14, 2011, 08:40 AM
And you're privy to the agreement ? :rolleyes:

Seriously, this spinning of "Apple won!" is ridiculous. First Nokia was never trying to exempt Apple from anything, they wanted Apple to license the patents. Extortion is quite a big accusation given we never had the details of what Nokia asked for and the fact that Apple, unlike other players, didn't have any patents in the GSM Patent pool (so they should be paying more, they are contributing less).

In the end, this is what was going to happen all along, a negotiated deal. Nokia had been negotiating with Apple since 2007 and the lawsuit was just another negotiation tactic.

Can't argue with anything here, except that we do have details of what Nokia asked for originally from the court filings. Some of the details were disputed, but a careful reading at the time left the impression that Nokia never actually denied pressing for access to Apple's patents as part of the license cost.

Anyone spinning this as a "win" or "loss" by Apple or Nokia is wrong.

Apple likely won by getting a RAND license (as required by the standards body rules), and Nokia won by getting a license agreement signed with Apple.

For all the people claiming that Nokia 'lost' or Apple 'lost', remember Life is not a zero-sum game. For one party to win the others do not have to lose.

Oletros
Jun 14, 2011, 08:41 AM
As I recall from reading the court filings (months ago), Nokia was pretty careful about *not* explicitly saying Apples claims in that regard were false. They put a different spin on the situation (obviously), but I don't recall them claiming Apple was lying about anything in their filing.

http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/ne/pdfs/complaint.pdf

Nokia said they offered F/RAND terms

Uragon
Jun 14, 2011, 08:50 AM
Do you know what the original terms were?

We only know that Apple said one thing and Nokia another, wew don't know nor the original terms nor the settled terms.

why do you keep on repeating yourself? If you don't know anything, stop asking and find it out and tell us. Otherwise....keep it to yourself.

TMay
Jun 14, 2011, 08:58 AM
We know that you hate Apple, but as usual you get it wrong. Apple never claimed that Nokia's patents were not valid and that Apple should not pay. What Apple claimed that Nokia's patents were part of phone standards and Nokia had to license them to everyone on the same terms, whereas Nokia tried to charge Apple more money than others.

Now we hear that Apple is licensing the patents and pays some amount of money for them, something which Apple always said it wanted to do anyway.




No, the company that has Nokia by the balls is Microsoft. Important rule for any company: Never, ever hire an ex-Microsoft executive as your CEO.

If my recollection is correct, Nokia had previously licensed based on a percentage of the value of each unit. That probably made sense in simple phones, but in smartphones, Apple would have been paying a much higher unit price for the identical technolgy, as would any smartphone maker.

This is where the fair and reasonable pricing was disputed by Apple.
Of course Apple should have and did contest this.

It now appears that there was an agreement made that was more favorable to Apple than Nokia original offering, while at the same time, establishing a benchmark that other smartphone makers would have to license against.

Nokia wins as the company establishes a benchmark for licensing to smartphone manufacturers, Apple wins as the licensing costs are more favorably than what Nokia had previously brought to the table, and Android's low cost business model takes another hit with added costs to the manufacturer.

The impact of MS patents on as yet unlicensed smartphone manufacturers and Oracle Java patents on the Android OS are unknown, but overall, I would say that collectively, these could have added impact on Android handset manufacturers, favorable to Nokia, MS, Apple and probably WebOS as well.

Oletros
Jun 14, 2011, 09:05 AM
and Android's low cost business model takes another hit with added costs to the manufacturer.


Why? Motorola, HTC and Samsung have licensed essential patents from Nokia.

cmaier
Jun 14, 2011, 09:07 AM
http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/ne/pdfs/complaint.pdf

Nokia said they offered F/RAND terms

But they didn't. One thing seems clear - Nokia gets no access to apple's IP, which seems to be what apple was worried about.

Uragon
Jun 14, 2011, 09:10 AM
At any rate, this very positive for Nokia. They can now concentrate or focus on their strategies. Honestly, I like Nokia to survive this and once again to be one of the top mobile companies......

erzhik
Jun 14, 2011, 09:14 AM
oh god, this thread is full of fanboys. Nobody won, Nokia didn't win, Apple didn't win. This is business. Nokia was going to be paid no matter what, they were. Apple was going to pay, they did. Everyone calm down. This is how business is done every single day.

And to people saying Nokia will fail: Aren't you tired of repeating the same old thing for the last 10 years? Nokia is not going anywhere, they been here the longest and they will remain here when others are gone. And do you kids even understand economics? At all? Remember, more choices we have, better off we are in this world. You will learn this in college.

Oletros
Jun 14, 2011, 09:19 AM
But they didn't.

We don't know, Apple said no, Nokia said yes.


One thing seems clear - Nokia gets no access to apple's IP, which seems to be what apple was worried about.

We also don't know if they have access or if Nokia tried to have access.

SiPat
Jun 14, 2011, 09:42 AM
OK, so Apple therefore admitted that they were wrong. Now lets hear from LTDs of this forum how they are going to spin this. They have been claiming all along that Apple was the "innovator" here and Nokia was in the wrong.

Let's get some facts right -- in layman's terms, OK?

Apple was liable to pay the standard licence fee for using stuff that Nokia had contributed to the world-wide standards for mobile communications. Apple never disputed the licence fee. Nokia fell asleep at the wheel thinking the iPhone would sink, but when Apple started taking market share from Nokia, Nokia decided it wanted higher licence fees from Apple than other phone manufacturers.

Apple got pissed off and said SOSUMI (if you use a Mac, look in the Sound PrefPane under the Sound Effects tab and then google it for its origins).

Then both companies started having a go at each other -- this was probably settled by Bill Gates making a call to Nokia and telling them to stop being childish and concentrate on producing the new MS phone.

rdowns
Jun 14, 2011, 09:49 AM
Good. Now focus on making your stuff better.

Yeah, cause the lawyers will now take off their ties, roll up their sleeves and get to work on polishing Lion and iOS 5. :rolleyes:

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 14, 2011, 10:03 AM
Funny... I don't view this as Nokia won or Apple won. I view it as business.

I'm guessing Apple went to Nokia for the license and Nokia wanted too much and negotiations went nowhere. So Apple decided to take the next step which is use legal negotiations to get the price down to where they wanted it to be and this is what this is all about. I've seen this tactic before and generally works.

So this is not about Apple trying to steal technology, or not pay for it. It's not about who won, it's about two companies trying to watch out for their bottom line and leveraging their strengths to get what they need. It's just a process in business. That's all.

How can you say Nokia didn't win on this. Nokia is going to get rightfully paid for the technology they developed that Apple was trying to use for free.

Oletros
Jun 14, 2011, 10:15 AM
Apple never disputed the licence fee. Nokia fell asleep at the wheel thinking the iPhone would sink, but when Apple started taking market share from Nokia, Nokia decided it wanted higher licence fees from Apple than other phone manufacturers.

Apple got pissed off and said SOSUMI (if you use a Mac, look in the Sound PrefPane under the Sound Effects tab and then google it for its origins).

Then both companies started having a go at each other -- this was probably settled by Bill Gates making a call to Nokia and telling them to stop being childish and concentrate on producing the new MS phone.

Those are facts?

parapup
Jun 14, 2011, 10:29 AM
/s/FOSS Patents/Anti-FOSS Patent Troll/g and I am good with the article. That retard has to bring anti-Android anti-FOSS overstretched "points" to the discussion.

aegisdesign
Jun 14, 2011, 10:36 AM
But they didn't. One thing seems clear - Nokia gets no access to apple's IP, which seems to be what apple was worried about.

That's the nub of it originally though wasn't it.

Nokia said they offered FRAND based on the same percentage that everyone else pays or some combo of payments + cross licencing. Apple disagreed that smartphones should be the same percentage as dumbphones and didn't want to cross licence.

And we're not going to get any closer to solving this unless details of the deal leak out.

when Apple started taking market share from Nokia, Nokia decided it wanted higher licence fees from Apple than other phone manufacturers.

That's pure speculation not fact since neither Apple nor Nokia nor any of the other manufacturers have let on what the licence fees actually are.

paul4339
Jun 14, 2011, 10:41 AM
I don't view this as Nokia won or Apple won. I view it as business....


I agree, Apple eventually had to settle, and Nokia who'd lost 25% in market capitalization since MAY 30, has lost drastic marketshare to companies like Samsung.

Elop (Nokia's new CEO) had to settle this and move the company forward or join Kodak.

archipellago
Jun 14, 2011, 11:13 AM
Exactly, I'd don't think Nokia could have been given more than others had agreed to, because of the legal implications for a standards patent.

Let's not forget, Apple WANTED TO PAY THE SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE, all along. Nokia were just trying to be greedy!

Not true....

The GSM patent pool, works in that you pay less for other licenses if you contribute more IP to the pool.

as Apple were unwilling to contribute any IP to the pool they were told to pay top whack for the licenses.

so, yes technically more than anyone else..but for a good reason.

No chance Nokia has caved on the amounts as if so then all the other contributors would want their extra slice too!

quasinormal
Jun 14, 2011, 11:32 AM
When Apple entered the market Nokia was over $40 per share. They're now around 6 bucks.

Their market share is dropping faster than Richard Simmons at a San Francisco hot tub party.........

You got me there with your great reply. I'm just a Nokia 1100 fanboy.

aristotle
Jun 14, 2011, 11:36 AM
No, it's the company that invented your iPhone (for the most part).
Uh, no. They invented some GSM technology. I think everyone would agree that the iPod Touch is basically an iPhone without a cellular chip in it right? Everyone would also agree that the Verizon iPhone is also an iPhone but without GSM technology right?

Ok, now if I turn it on its side then the iPhone is basically an iPod touch with a cellular chip in it. What other parts of the iPhone besides the cellular chip in the GSM iPhones and the cellular software stack that communicates with it are legitimately covered by Nokia patents? In my estimation, 95% of the GSM iPhone was not based on inventions originated at Nokia.

@archipellago: But what you are missing is that the patent pool was originally meant only for patents related to GSM cellular networking but Nokia wanted Apple to contribute multi-touch patents to the pool which are not cellphone specific are are used in Apple's non-phone products.

Bluethree
Jun 14, 2011, 11:37 AM
I used to own ALL Nokia phones all my life until Apple came in the picture. Not to mention I may be living in US but I have seen from Addis Ababa to Dubai, from Paris to Prague. I would not talk about knowing things out of US if I were you.

To be frank the nonsense that you are posting in this thread devalues any credability you have to the level of the following:

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg

kdarling
Jun 14, 2011, 11:39 AM
The GSM patent pool, works in that you pay less for other licenses if you contribute more IP to the pool.

As Apple were unwilling to contribute any IP to the pool they were told to pay top whack for the licenses.


Exactly. Apple wanted to pay the same rate as other pool contributors, but without contributing anything. That's not fair in anyone's book.

Nokia was even willing to let an American jury decide a fair license fee and any damages, but Apple apparently didn't want to take a chance on their decision.

In any case, the Nokia deal is done. So what next?

Well, some wonder if Apple has also been avoiding Ericsson, who has a large share of GSM patents as well, and who is known to sue phone makers for royalties.

Bluethree
Jun 14, 2011, 11:43 AM
You got me there with your great reply. I'm just a Nokia 1100 fanboy.

Quality response :D:D:D

b0blndsy
Jun 14, 2011, 11:44 AM
No reason you can't apply that to both companies.

More for Nokia from me :D:apple:

Oletros
Jun 14, 2011, 01:06 PM
Uh, no. They invented some GSM technology. I think everyone would agree that the iPod Touch is basically an iPhone without a cellular chip in it right? Everyone would also agree that the Verizon iPhone is also an iPhone but without GSM technology right?

Ok, now if I turn it on its side then the iPhone is basically an iPod touch with a cellular chip in it. What other parts of the iPhone besides the cellular chip in the GSM iPhones and the cellular software stack that communicates with it are legitimately covered by Nokia patents? In my estimation, 95% of the GSM iPhone was not based on inventions originated at Nokia.

@archipellago: But what you are missing is that the patent pool was originally meant only for patents related to GSM cellular networking but Nokia wanted Apple to contribute multi-touch patents to the pool which are not cellphone specific are are used in Apple's non-phone products.

Mmm, not only GSM but Wifi, SMS and other radio patents.

Bluethree
Jun 14, 2011, 03:31 PM
Regardless of their current state as consumers we do have a lot to be grateful to Nokia for. :)

archipellago
Jun 14, 2011, 03:38 PM
How can you say Nokia didn't win on this. Nokia is going to get rightfully paid for the technology they developed that Apple was trying to use for free.


and they cross licensed some Apple patents too...!

Major win for Nokia all round..

emulator
Jun 14, 2011, 06:06 PM
OK, so Apple therefore admitted that they were wrong. Now lets hear from LTDs of this forum how they are going to spin this. They have been claiming all along that Apple was the "innovator" here and Nokia was in the wrong.
Hey, Apple invented GSM, didn't they?

cmaier
Jun 14, 2011, 06:34 PM
OK, so Apple therefore admitted that they were wrong. Now lets hear from LTDs of this forum how they are going to spin this. They have been claiming all along that Apple was the "innovator" here and Nokia was in the wrong.

Where did apple admit they were wrong?

They apparently agreed to pay a license fee and cross-license some patents. It's not clear whether this is more or less than what Nokia had been asking for, but it's presumably less otherwise Apple would have taken their chances in court. I also don't think Apple ever really said they weren't willing to pay - their argument appeared to be that they wanted the same license everyone else had. For all we know that's what they got.

seedster2
Jun 14, 2011, 07:04 PM
This isn't a victory for NOKIA.

This is a win by Apple. Nokia had all but 2 Patents thrown out and the last two only up for review.

Apple won this one.

If it makes you sleep better at night...

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)
Who cares at this point.

How about Nokia patenting a friggin clue?

This company is nearly defunct. They're doomed unles WP7 saves them and at this point WP7 barely has any traction, no one really cares about it and carriers are actually pushing customers *away* from the platform. WP7 share has actually been shrinking. Both Nokia and WP7 need to somehow survive into 2012, and *then* consumers need to somehow find it in themselves to actually give a damn.

There's nothing to boast about here regarding Nokia, unless we're applauding stupidity and laziness.

Blah blah ... if the outcome was definitively in Apple's favor you would be singing a completely different tune...let the spin begin

You're posts are sometimes frustrating - but often times just funny in their insanity. Especially when they are 100 percent biased and disregard facts.

Every post is a new LTD marketing opportunity.



Why the press or anti Apple or anti Nokia people need to determine a winner or loser is beyond me.

Likely too much personal attachment to a corporation.

aristotle
Jun 14, 2011, 10:56 PM
Mmm, not only GSM but Wifi, SMS and other radio patents.
SMS, I can see but Wifi is not specific to phones of any type. I surprised that they were granted any WiFi related patents since those should have been part of the Wifi group rather than a cell phone related group.

If Nokia was not involved in the development for the Wifi standard then their "patents" should be invalidated especially if they are trying to extort fees for non-phone devices.

cmaier
Jun 14, 2011, 11:12 PM
SMS, I can see but Wifi is not specific to phones of any type. I surprised that they were granted any WiFi related patents since those should have been part of the Wifi group rather than a cell phone related group.

If Nokia was not involved in the development for the Wifi standard then their "patents" should be invalidated especially if they are trying to extort fees for non-phone devices.

Various GSM-related patent holders have, in the past, asserted their patents also apply to various aspects of 802.11. Remember, these patents go to fundamental techniques of putting information out on the waves, and are not necessarily limited to specific frequencies or (in many cases) things that are specific to GSM.

Oletros
Jun 15, 2011, 03:47 AM
but it's presumably less otherwise Apple would have taken their chances in court.

Why would have taken their chances in court? Perhaps they have settled because they knew they will lose.

We don't know the settlement conditions

cmaier
Jun 15, 2011, 09:18 AM
Why would have taken their chances in court? Perhaps they have settled because they knew they will lose.

We don't know the settlement conditions

A "loss" in court would have resulted in apple paying what Nokia asked for.

So even if apple thought they'd lose, if there was even a small chance of winning they'd have kept going instead of just paying that amount now in settlement.

Oletros
Jun 15, 2011, 10:54 AM
A "loss" in court would have resulted in apple paying what Nokia asked for.

So even if apple thought they'd lose, if there was even a small chance of winning they'd have kept going instead of just paying that amount now in settlement.

No, a loss in court may result in additional fees for damages, plus all the lawer fees.

seashellz
Jun 15, 2011, 02:10 PM
"....all the Apple fanboys...."- from a Bill Gates fanboi lol!

cmaier
Jun 15, 2011, 02:14 PM
No, a loss in court may result in additional fees for damages, plus all the lawer fees.

Huh? I'm with you on lawyer fees (in other words, yes, Apple would have to pay a few million to its lawyers to take the case to conclusion, but that's piddly compared to the cost of settlement - if the cost of settlement is, for example, $1B in the first 5 years, and there is a 1% chance that Apple could invalidate the patents, that should be treated as $100M, which is far far more than attorney fees.

As for "additional fees for damages," that's just wrong. The maximum damages that would be awarded in the case would be the amount of money (both for past infringements and going forward) that Nokia asks for. Not an amount on top of that.

Further, these damages would almost certainly be calculated as a "reasonable royalty."