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MacRumors
Jun 17, 2011, 03:15 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/17/apple-details-lion-purchase-process-for-business-and-education/)


Apple today released a PDF documenting (http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/06/US_OS_X_Lion_for_Business_and_Education-US_version.pdf) (PDF link) how large business and educational customers with many Macs will upgrade to Lion via the Mac App Store. It appears that even for those customers, Apple will not be offering Lion via physical media. Like the consumer release, OS X Lion will be available via online delivery only.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/06/business.jpg


Apple will offer business customers volume license contracts for $29.99 per license, with a minimum of 20 licenses. Education customers can purchase the Apple Software Collection (Mac OS, iLife and iWork) starting at $39 per license, starting at 25 licenses.

For customers wanting OS X Lion Server, it will be available as an add-on for $49.99, in addition to the $29 upgrade for standard Lion. Snow Leopard Server is not required to purchase Lion Server, however existing Snow Leopard Server installations can only be upgraded to Lion Server. Both Lion and Lion Server need to be purchased for Snow Leopard Server-equipped machines.

To actually download Lion, volume license customers will receive one redemption code for each contract. The redemption code can be used to download Lion from the Mac App Store. When the redemption code is entered, the Lion installer will download to the Applications folder, but will not install immediately. This Lion installer is used to install Lion on other systems. Download once, install many times.

IT departments will be able to use the same mass installation techniques they use today. To install Lion on multiple systems, they'll copy the Install Mac OS X Lion application from the Mac App Store to each target system. Once copied, the installer will be launched and Lion will install in place. There is no need to boot from an external disk. Administrators will also be able to use System Image Utility in OS X Lion Server to create NetInstall or NetRestore Images.

Apple has announced that they will be releasing OS X Lion in July.

Article Link: Apple Details Lion Purchase Process for Business and Education (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/17/apple-details-lion-purchase-process-for-business-and-education/)



GFLPraxis
Jun 17, 2011, 03:19 PM
That price drop on Lion Server is enormous. I can't get over it.

longofest
Jun 17, 2011, 03:19 PM
[url=http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/17/apple-details-lion-purchase-process-for-business-and-education/]Like the consumer release, OS X Lion will be available via online delivery only.

I still don't quite understand how Apple expects Leopard and earlier users to upgrade to Lion if they only do digital delivery via Mac App Store. Are they still going to sell Snow Leopard DVDs, so you upgrade twice? That would be very un-apple like.

Fraaaa
Jun 17, 2011, 03:19 PM
Finally MANY people will be happy to have some of this issues clarified.

longofest
Jun 17, 2011, 03:20 PM
That price drop on Lion Server is enormous. I can't get over it.

The price is now more in-line with the quality of Apple's server products. :rolleyes: Mac OS X Server has always been crap, and I really don't expect Lion Server to be any better.

DerfBWH
Jun 17, 2011, 03:20 PM
This entire App Store only situation is a mess.

parapup
Jun 17, 2011, 03:21 PM
That price drop on Lion Server is enormous. I can't get over it.

What would be the support option for the $50 server "app" ? If my server app blows up middle of the night do I still get to call Apple about it? (Not dealt with prior server versions so not sure if that was possible even before.)

iMikeT
Jun 17, 2011, 03:22 PM
Just that easy folks.

Bonch
Jun 17, 2011, 03:23 PM
How does this help someone like me with a medical clinic and ten macs? It still sounds like a PITA.

osx11
Jun 17, 2011, 03:24 PM
I still don't quite understand how Apple expects Leopard and earlier users to upgrade to Lion if they only do digital delivery via Mac App Store. Are they still going to sell Snow Leopard DVDs, so you upgrade twice? That would be very un-apple like.

Most users who didn't upgrade to snow leopard probably won't upgrade to lion either, so this is probably not really an issue for apple. For those still running leopard, you're already one release behind, so upgrading to snow leopard now will be exciting for those people.

Cougarcat
Jun 17, 2011, 03:25 PM
How does this help someone like me with a medical clinic and ten macs? It still sounds like a PITA.

Why is it a PITA?

Download once, copy to flash drive, install on other Macs. Easy.

humblecoder
Jun 17, 2011, 03:25 PM
...and what about those that simply like to archive/clean-install when a new OS arrives? O_o

silusesMac
Jun 17, 2011, 03:25 PM
i hate the whole mac app store download thing, why cant we have it on flash drives or something, thats what they did with the macbook air reinstall.

nesl247
Jun 17, 2011, 03:26 PM
How does this help someone like me with a medical clinic and ten macs? It still sounds like a PITA.

Should be pretty easy I think. Create an apple id for the business. Purchase Lion. Download it on one Mac. Restore the InstallESD.dmg to a usb drive. Upgrade on all the macs.

ten-oak-druid
Jun 17, 2011, 03:27 PM
I wonder if Apple will offer fee SL via the web to Tiger and Lion users?

I'm not in need myself. But there seems to be a few people affected by this. It is a small minority though because the statistics show SL has been adopted by a large majority of Mac users which is impressive. In the Windows world it is 25% W7, 25% XP and the rest use other versions. I only used it occasionally so I can compare but I guess XP was pretty popular for many Windows users.

Anyway Apple can't expect to make sales of SL now with Lion out for $29. So why not let people download it if necessary or release an App Store for Tiger and Leopard that can download one thing: Lion.

benthewraith
Jun 17, 2011, 03:27 PM
...and what about those that simply like to archive/clean-install when a new OS arrives? O_o

Lion creates a restore partition on your hard drive. Also, as it works now, at least with the developer previews, it can be burned to DVD.

longofest
Jun 17, 2011, 03:27 PM
Most users who didn't upgrade to snow leopard probably won't upgrade to lion either, so this is probably not really an issue for apple. For those still running leopard, you're already one release behind, so upgrading to snow leopard now will be exciting for those people.

Some people don't upgrade EVERY release. They upgrade every other release, or when they feel the features apply enough to them to warrant an upgrade.

I'm set, as I run 10.6. But I know a number of folks who are going to be left behind by Apple's plan.

Nightarchaon
Jun 17, 2011, 03:28 PM
well im waiting to see what the re-install options are for lion equipped new macs when its released..

i wont be upgrading to lion unless i have physical media and can do a clean install.

is this a hint that all future macs will be dropping built in superdrives ?

GFLPraxis
Jun 17, 2011, 03:29 PM
The price is now more in-line with the quality of Apple's server products. :rolleyes: Mac OS X Server has always been crap, and I really don't expect Lion Server to be any better.

Crap how? (seriously asking, never used it)

Like, worse than a free LAMP setup?

SteveLV702
Jun 17, 2011, 03:29 PM
Should be pretty easy I think. Create an apple id for the business. Purchase Lion. Download it on one Mac. Restore the InstallESD.dmg to a usb drive. Upgrade on all the macs.

problem with that is when I burned InstallESD.dmg of DP4 to a DVD and went to boot from disc it took over 3 1/2 hours to actually load up to the first screen and then another 8 hours to install...

polaris20
Jun 17, 2011, 03:30 PM
This works for me! I'm glad they responded with this, it'll make my life easier with upgrading all of our Macs (once the requisite testing period is over, of course).

It will be interesting to see how the new SMB stack works in conjunction with AD.

Cougarcat
Jun 17, 2011, 03:30 PM
well im waiting to see what the re-install options are for lion equipped new macs when its released..

i wont be upgrading to lion unless i have physical media and can do a clean install.



You can do a clean install now, but don't get your hopes up with getting physical media. It's pretty clear now that the Restore partition is its replacement.


problem with that is when I burned InstallESD.dmg of DP4 to a DVD and went to boot from disc it took over 3 1/2 hours to actually load up to the first screen and then another 8 hours to install...

Restore it to an partition or USB key instead. Install takes 20 minutes.

Sky Blue
Jun 17, 2011, 03:30 PM
problem with that is when I burned InstallESD.dmg of DP4 to a DVD and went to boot from disc it took over 3 1/2 hours to actually load up to the first screen and then another 8 hours to install...

buy a $10 USB Drive

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 17, 2011, 03:30 PM
This is a freaking disaster. How are enterprises suppose to develop images without the media. This is not good.

Cougarcat
Jun 17, 2011, 03:33 PM
This is a freaking disaster. How are enterprises suppose to develop images without the media. This is not good.

From the article:

Administrators will also be able to use System Image Utility in OS X Lion Server to create NetInstall or NetRestore Images.

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 17, 2011, 03:34 PM
From the article:

Not from what I read. From what I read the ASR is actually just an installer. I want to use my own images not deploy an in place updater.

chrono1081
Jun 17, 2011, 03:34 PM
The price is now more in-line with the quality of Apple's server products. :rolleyes: Mac OS X Server has always been crap, and I really don't expect Lion Server to be any better.

Um have you ever USED OSX server? Its actually pretty awesome. Although I do the support for the Windows servers at work and don't often get to nose in the Mac side of the house I know that their server problems and server down time has been zero for the past year. I can't say the same about the side I support.

That being said the Windows side has a lot more servers and a lot more users but it still doesn't negate the fact that there were zero problems in a year. Thats amazing to me.

longofest
Jun 17, 2011, 03:35 PM
This is a freaking disaster. How are enterprises suppose to develop images without the media. This is not good.

Well, that much can be done as it says in the article. Use System Image Utility and create a NetInstall/NetRestore image.

humblecoder
Jun 17, 2011, 03:35 PM
Lion creates a restore partition on your hard drive. Also, as it works now, at least with the developer previews, it can be burned to DVD.

I read something about this, but I don't have any use/desire for a restore partition. I want to manually backup, then perform a 100% clean install (with all of my space) and I'll "restore" items manually as desired. I'm one of the few that want *absolutely no assistance* (or cruft).

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 17, 2011, 03:37 PM
Um have you ever USED OSX server? Its actually pretty awesome. Although I do the support for the Windows servers at work and don't often get to nose in the Mac side of the house I know that their server problems and server down time has been zero for the past year. I can't say the same about the side I support.

That being said the Windows side has a lot more servers and a lot more users but it still doesn't negate the fact that there were zero problems in a year. Thats amazing to me.

Zero problems? We have a ton of Xserve's and they are quite temperamental.

petvas
Jun 17, 2011, 03:38 PM
Where does it say that Lion Server doesn't require Snow Leopard Server? I have read the document and couldn't find that information...

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 17, 2011, 03:38 PM
Zero problems? We have a ton of Xserve's and they are quite temperamental.

Well, that much can be done as it says in the article. Use System Image Utility and create a NetInstall/NetRestore image.

Thats fine but what the PDF is not saying is what is it. Will I get a DMG of the actual OS or am I just going to be deploying an in place upgrade. All I want is a DMG of the OS Installer so I can deploy it with Casper. I don't want to use the App nor do I want to use Netinstall. We do diskless netboot as do most of the Mac enterprises.

newfoundglory
Jun 17, 2011, 03:38 PM
This is a freaking disaster. How are enterprises suppose to develop images without the media. This is not good.

Mac App store is great... but I have to agree here. This is indeed a complete disaster.

Cougarcat
Jun 17, 2011, 03:39 PM
Not from what I read. From what I read the ASR is actually just an installer. I want to use my own images not deploy an in place updater.


The thing you download from the app store is an installer, but there's a dmg that you can extract. I'm guessing System Image Utility will do this without having to open up the package yourself.

Nermal
Jun 17, 2011, 03:40 PM
Why is it a PITA?

Download once, copy to flash drive, install on other Macs. Easy.

Except then you have one licensed copy and nine pirated ones. As far as I know, the App Store doesn't allow you to buy the same app multiple times so I'm not sure how you'd buy ten licences in this case.

chrono1081
Jun 17, 2011, 03:40 PM
Zero problems? We have a ton of Xserve's and they are quite temperamental.

Really? I guess maybe I just have a unique experience then : / The guy who manages them doesn't even work in the building since there is no need for him to be there all day. They just call him if something happens. He does come in weekly though to check on things.

longofest
Jun 17, 2011, 03:40 PM
Um have you ever USED OSX server? Its actually pretty awesome. Although I do the support for the Windows servers at work and don't often get to nose in the Mac side of the house I know that their server problems and server down time has been zero for the past year. I can't say the same about the side I support.

That being said the Windows side has a lot more servers and a lot more users but it still doesn't negate the fact that there were zero problems in a year. Thats amazing to me.

Yes... I have used multiple versions of Mac OS X Server (10.3 and 10.4 server), and abandoned it because they were so buggy.

Windows Server is extremely stable. Sorry you had issues, but at my work, we run a ton of them and don't experience the kind of downtime you're speaking of.

LoadStar
Jun 17, 2011, 03:40 PM
Starting at $39 for education? That's a price INCREASE from the current program. Currently 25 seats is $899, or $35.96/seat.

The other bad part with the program is that you're forced to take iLife and iWork, even if you don't want or need them.

Lesser Evets
Jun 17, 2011, 03:40 PM
Lion is becoming a kind of boondoggle. Apple is going in the right direction, but they make it difficult for most people to jump on board. It's almost like they truly want to limit sales of their next OS.

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 17, 2011, 03:41 PM
The thing you download from the app store is an installer, but there's a dmg that you can extract. I'm guessing System Image Utility will do this without having to open up the package yourself.

Thats great.

Where does it say that. Thats my problem Apple isn't telling me the things I need to know. How am I suppose to tell my boss "Oh yeah new OS coming out its suppose to do this and that but we don't know because all Apple says is the little blurb that tells us nothing."

As for the App store, Enterprises can't use it because of licensing.


Yes... I have used multiple versions of Mac OS X Server (10.3 and 10.4 server), and abandoned it because they were so buggy.

Windows Server is extremely stable. Sorry you had issues, but at my work, we run a ton of them and don't experience the kind of downtime you're speaking of.

100% truth. This is what I see in my environment. I have been an OSX Server admin going on 6 years and PC servers for about 2-3. OSX Server has really no use for Enterprises except for Pushing MCX's and OD (if you are brave enough to rely on OD.)

Sofabutt
Jun 17, 2011, 03:43 PM
People with a monthly bandwidth limit are going to be out in the cold on upgrading. Even if their limit is 8 gigs they're going to have to budget a month's worth of internet use just to download Lion.

chrono1081
Jun 17, 2011, 03:43 PM
Yes... I have used multiple versions of Mac OS X Server (10.3 and 10.4 server), and abandoned it because they were so buggy.

Windows Server is extremely stable. Sorry you had issues, but at my work, we run a ton of them and don't experience the kind of downtime you're speaking of.

Apparently I have a unique situation as one other poster pointed out. They said their OSX servers were tempermental and were surprised ours had zero issues.

EDIT: Ours are running snow leopard server so maybe that has something to do with it?

benthewraith
Jun 17, 2011, 03:44 PM
Starting at $39 for education? That's a price INCREASE from the current program. Currently 25 seats is $899, or $35.96/seat.

The other bad part with the program is that you're forced to take iLife and iWork, even if you don't want or need them.

Would an educational institution be able to qualify for the business discount?

Cougarcat
Jun 17, 2011, 03:44 PM
Except then you have one licensed copy and nine pirated ones. As far as I know, the App Store doesn't allow you to buy the same app multiple times so I'm not sure how you'd buy ten licences in this case.

What? You would be buying a business license, you are allowed to do this.

Anyway, for home users, you can also install it on any mac that uses your AppleID.

matt4836
Jun 17, 2011, 03:45 PM
You can do a clean install now, but don't get your hopes up with getting physical media. It's pretty clear now that the Restore partition is its replacement.




Restore it to an partition or USB key instead. Install takes 20 minutes.

I created an account just to make this same reply. No serious IT guy is going to carry around DVDs. I have not used a DVD to restore an image in a LONG time. Are these people PeeCee IT guys that need a DVD to restore? As mentioned, restore the Disk Image using Disk Utility to any drive, boot holding Option. You are done in 20 minutes. You can do clean installs and everything from it.

Yes the App Store method was a nightmare for Developers getting the Beta version, but retail Apps are a breeze.

As long as you can create a Deploy Studio/Netboot image from it, which you can, real IT guys will be happy.


This is a freaking disaster. How are enterprises suppose to develop images without the media. This is not good.

Please explain how you create Images now. I have created images for over 20 Schools and businesses, not once did I waste my time using DVD/CDs. Maybe I am a rare IT guy that doesn't want to spend all day running up the meter setting a computer up.

In conclusion Apple is brilliant. I knew DVD media was going away, I thought for sure Final Cut Studio 3 was going to be Flash Drive based. The first thing I do when I get software is make a disk image of it, and put it on a drive. Apple is saving me a step. Thank you!

Also great for real IT guys, when there is an OS update we can download a new FULL INSTALL to, 10.7.5 for example, instead of installing to 10.7 then running updates and so forth. Apple can easily post a new version to download from the App Store. No need to have multiple partitions for various processors etc.
Apologies for disrupting the negative feedback here. But Apple is doing a great thing, pushing new technology. Maybe you should push your hate at your crappy ISP service that is stealing your money giving you 3down/.5up.

I am an Apple Certified System Administrator, I have been doing this awhile and see this as a huge plus for us.

heisetax
Jun 17, 2011, 03:45 PM
Most users who didn't upgrade to snow leopard probably won't upgrade to lion either, so this is probably not really an issue for apple. For those still running leopard, you're already one release behind, so upgrading to snow leopard now will be exciting for those people.

But what is so exciting about OS 10.6 Snow Leopard? I only use it because I have to use on my 17" Intel MacBook Pro so to keep things the same I also did on my Intel Mac Pro. May Mac Users do not make every OS change. I usually do buying on the first day, installing on a spare partition, running in this test mode until the programs need to use will work, I also keep the old in case I have to go back.

But most people probably just use one OS version & use the same test there that they do with their other software, is the change worth the $s, time & effort needed to get it to work. Many of these did not deem OS 10.6 Snow Leopard worth the total cost of change. Why should they be required to purchase a version os a program or OS that they will not be using?

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 17, 2011, 03:47 PM
Apparently I have a unique situation as one other poster pointed out. They said their OSX servers were tempermental and were surprised ours had zero issues.

To be fair to you though, it depends on what the server is doing. In an environment where the server is getting some good use it appears Xserve and OSX server just can't cut it. We were running an Xserve using tomcat, apache, and netboot only and it would just cave in on us all the time. Now we run our app on Windows 2008R2 and Netboot on a Mini with OSX server. Haven't had a problem since (except with Netbooting every now and then.)

The one thing OSX server does allow, is giving anyone the sensation of being a server admin. Temporarily of course.


[QUOTE=matt4836;12778248]I created an account just to make this same reply. No serious IT guy is going to carry around DVDs. I have not used a DVD to restore an image in a LONG time. Are these people PeeCee IT guys that need a DVD to restore? As mentioned, restore the Disk Image using Disk Utility to any drive, boot holding Option. You are done in 20 minutes. You can do clean installs and everything from it.

Yes the App Store method was a nightmare for Developers getting the Beta version, but retail Apps are a breeze.

As long as you can create a Deploy Studio/Netboot image from it, which you can, real IT guys will be happy.

Why because nowhere in the documentation does it tell us what we actually get. I don't need DVD's or CD's I develop my images currently by getting an OSX DVD throwing it in Casper and then adding my custom packages and scripts, use Diskless Netboot to restore via NFS, done. What are we getting. That small statement in the PDF tells us nothing.

chrono1081
Jun 17, 2011, 03:48 PM
I created an account just to make this same reply. No serious IT guy is going to carry around DVDs. I have not used a DVD to restore an image in a LONG time. Are these people PeeCee IT guys that need a DVD to restore? As mentioned, restore the Disk Image using Disk Utility to any drive, boot holding Option. You are done in 20 minutes. You can do clean installs and everything from it.

Yes the App Store method was a nightmare for Developers getting the Beta version, but retail Apps are a breeze.

As long as you can create a Deploy Studio/Netboot image from it, which you can, real IT guys will be happy.




Please explain how you create Images now. I have created images for over 20 Schools and businesses, not once did I waste my time using DVD/CDs. Maybe I am a rare IT guy that doesn't want to spend all day running up the meter setting a computer up.

In conclusion Apple is brilliant. I knew DVD media was going away, I thought for sure Final Cut Studio 3 was going to be Flash Drive based. The first thing I do when I get software is make a disk image of it, and put it on a drive. Apple is saving me a step. Thank you!

Also great for real IT guys, when there is an OS update we can download a new FULL INSTALL to, 10.7.5 for example, instead of installing to 10.7 then running updates and so forth. Apple can easily post a new version to download from the App Store. No need to have multiple partitions for various processors etc.
Apologies for disrupting the negative feedback here. But Apple is doing a great thing, pushing new technology. Maybe you should push your hate at your crappy ISP service that is stealing your money giving you 3down/.5up.

I am an Apple Certified System Administrator, I have been doing this awhile and see this as a huge plus for us.

*Sigh* I wish we could do away with optical media but the way our stuff was set up we have to use boot disks to image new machines. Some idiot long ago told higher ups it was the "only secure way to do things" and we can't persuade them to change it. (Thats what happens when non IT people get IT positions!) This is Windows though not Mac. I don't often get to mess with the Macs at work. They are all fairly new so they may do something else.

Cougarcat
Jun 17, 2011, 03:49 PM
Thats great.

Where does it say that. Thats my problem Apple isn't telling me the things I need to know. How am I suppose to tell my boss "Oh yeah new OS coming out its suppose to do this and that but we don't know because all Apple says is the little blurb that tells us nothing."


http://www.tuaw.com/2011/06/07/how-to-burn-a-lion-boot-disc/

The reason Apple doesn't tell you this is that they want you to "use the System Image Utility included in OS X Lion Server to create a NetInstall or NetRestore image."

humblecoder
Jun 17, 2011, 03:49 PM
I think some confusion is coming from the use of "restore partition". I know it is/was for me. "Restore" connotes the backing up of old items for restoration later. Most people in that particular "group" don't care about the actual media so much as being able to completely wipe their HD and reinstall.

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 17, 2011, 03:50 PM
http://www.tuaw.com/2011/06/07/how-to-burn-a-lion-boot-disc/

The reason Apple doesn't tell you this is that they want you to "use the System Image Utility included in OS X Lion Server to create a NetInstall or NetRestore image."

Why am I being forced to use System Image utility though. I don't want to make a monolithic image I want a Modular image.

RMo
Jun 17, 2011, 03:51 PM
Starting at $39 for education? That's a price INCREASE ... The other bad part with the program is that you're forced to take iLife and iWork, even if you don't want or need them.
Can't they just do the business volume license at $30, which is a price decrease then? That being said, most educational Macs I've used had iWork (and iLife), so this will save money for those people, too.

On a related note, this is a significant price decline for OS X Server, and I'm thrilled. It's basically $80 now (less if you've already purchased Lion with the same Apple ID and also less if you install the legally now-allowed more-than-one copy), which is less than "regular" OS X was before Snow Leopard. Now I can afford it for my Mac mini "server" (I have an Ubuntu VM set up on it now but would really like iCal Server in particular) without actually buying the Mac mini server.

Stridder44
Jun 17, 2011, 03:52 PM
I still don't quite understand how Apple expects Leopard and earlier users to upgrade to Lion if they only do digital delivery via Mac App Store. Are they still going to sell Snow Leopard DVDs, so you upgrade twice? That would be very un-apple like.

Yeah there's no way in hell I'm just going to "upgrade" to Lion without doing a clean install first. If it's as simple as downloading it once and being able to run it from a flash drive, then I'd be perfectly happy with that.

chrono1081
Jun 17, 2011, 03:53 PM
To be fair to you though, it depends on what the server is doing. In an environment where the server is getting some good use it appears Xserve and OSX server just can't cut it. We were running an Xserve using tomcat, apache, and netboot only and it would just cave in on us all the time. Now we run our app on Windows 2008R2 and Netboot on a Mini with OSX server. Haven't had a problem since (except with Netbooting every now and then.)

The one thing OSX server does allow, is giving anyone the sensation of being a server admin. Temporarily of course.

Our stuff is used in the media section of the house. I am not sure exactly what all the Mac servers do because although I'd love to work on that side to gain more experience with OSX server there just isn't justification for an extra position over there. I know they use the Wiki and iCal functions of the servers and the storage and backup for any media projects is handled by them but its for a small group of roughly 50 people. Beyond that I have no idea what all goes on with them. I would assume its fairly basic usage. (Although there is 6 or 7 servers in there for 50 people so maybe they do more then I think they do).

I still think OSX Lion for $50 is a steal and will be downloading it simply for learning purposes :)

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 17, 2011, 03:55 PM
Can't they just do the business volume license at $30, which is a price decrease then? That being said, most educational Macs I've used had iWork (and iLife), so this will save money for those people, too.

On a related note, this is a significant price decline for OS X Server, and I'm thrilled. It's basically $80 now (less if you've already purchased Lion with the same Apple ID and also less if you install the legally now-allowed more-than-one copy), which is less than "regular" OS X was before Snow Leopard. Now I can afford it for my Mac mini "server" (I have an Ubuntu VM set up on it now but would really like iCal Server in particular) without actually buying the Mac mini server.

Bottom line is this, Apple is yet again saying F-U to the enterprise. Apple sat here a year ago and promised us new servers, new support, blah blah blah we just needed to purchase a certain amount of servers and service to be eligible. We spent close to 250,000 on Apple Infrastructure and 2 weeks later they killed the server. Apple has no roadmap and doesn't give a rats ass about enterprises. Thats why I am saying nowhere does it say what Apple will give us and that scares me because Apple has lied to our faces multiple times. I want to know exactly what I get and what I can do with it so I can get my infrastructure ready. We are one of Apple's biggest clients.


I know they use the Wiki and iCal functions of the servers and the storage and backup for any media projects is handled by them but its for a small group of roughly 50 people.

I hate to say it but your company is throwing money away if they are using Xserves for just iCal (CalDAV) and Wiki + Storage. They could use the existing PC Storage infrastructure and purchase ExtremeZI-P. Way better than any Xserve.

matt4836
Jun 17, 2011, 03:55 PM
To be fair to you though, it depends on what the server is doing. In an environment where the server is getting some good use it appears Xserve and OSX server just can't cut it. We were running an Xserve using tomcat, apache, and netboot only and it would just cave in on us all the time. Now we run our app on Windows 2008R2 and Netboot on a Mini with OSX server. Haven't had a problem since (except with Netbooting every now and then.)

The one thing OSX server does allow, is giving anyone the sensation of being a server admin. Temporarily of course.


[QUOTE=matt4836;12778248]I created an account just to make this same reply. No serious IT guy is going to carry around DVDs. I have not used a DVD to restore an image in a LONG time. Are these people PeeCee IT guys that need a DVD to restore? As mentioned, restore the Disk Image using Disk Utility to any drive, boot holding Option. You are done in 20 minutes. You can do clean installs and everything from it.

Yes the App Store method was a nightmare for Developers getting the Beta version, but retail Apps are a breeze.

As long as you can create a Deploy Studio/Netboot image from it, which you can, real IT guys will be happy.

Why because nowhere in the documentation does it tell us what we actually get. I don't need DVD's or CD's I develop my images currently by getting an OSX DVD throwing it in Casper and then adding my custom packages and scripts, use Diskless Netboot to restore via NFS, done. What are we getting. That small statement in the PDF tells us nothing.

I have been using the developer version of Lion since the day it was released. I have already created deployable versions of it. Its almost identical. Apple just removed the DVD Ripping process. It is not serialized. OS X client has never been serialized. It's the easiest to deploy.

I am sure you will change your attitude when you actually get to do it, instead of speculating about things you have not experienced.

baryon
Jun 17, 2011, 03:55 PM
What's the point? Can't people just buy it ONCE for $30 and install it as many times they want anyway? Why buy 20 licenses for $30 each if you can get 20 licenses for $30 in TOTAL?

csHokie
Jun 17, 2011, 03:55 PM
I read something about this, but I don't have any use/desire for a restore partition. I want to manually backup, then perform a 100% clean install (with all of my space) and I'll "restore" items manually as desired. I'm one of the few that want *absolutely no assistance* (or cruft).

Ditto!

L-U-R-C-H
Jun 17, 2011, 03:56 PM
If they keep using standard media (DVD's) to deploy the OS, how do you expect technology to evolve? This is a great move for Apple. It's time to get it in gear and make cloud computing the future and regular media a thing of the past.

Nermal
Jun 17, 2011, 03:57 PM
What? You would be buying a business license, you are allowed to do this.

Anyway, for home users, you can also install it on any mac that uses your AppleID.

According to the linked PDF you need to buy 20 copies for the business licence, and the original question was about installing it on 10 machines. not 20.

As far as I'm aware, you're not allowed to use the "home version" in a commercial environment, but apologies if I'm mistaken. (Edit: See below).

macwinman
Jun 17, 2011, 03:57 PM
Apple's distribution plans for Lion are just unacceptable. My primary workstation is a MacBook owned by the company, but the App Store account on the system is my own. Regardless of the difficulty that alone brings, a downloadable-only distribution means I don't have a bootable disk for emergency repairs... I don't have a bootable DVD with hardware diagnostics... and frankly I know we live in a high-bandwidth world now, but every time I rebuild a system I don't want to have to install an OLD operating system in order to THEN update to the CURRENT operating system. This is the kind of junk I've seen Microsoft do with Windows 7 upgrades -- first install Windows XP on your computer, then install the Windows 7 upgrade. No, no, no! I erase the hard drive and do a CLEAN install of the CURRENT system. I don't care if it's a DVD or a USB drive or a 6-pack of CDs -- I don't care if costs $29 per station to do it -- but I MUST HAVE an individual bootable media for each computer I work with. This online distribution system had better not replace conventional business practices. Apple needs to think this through again.

ChrisA
Jun 17, 2011, 03:58 PM
What would be the support option for the $50 server "app" ? If my server app blows up middle of the night do I still get to call Apple about it? (Not dealt with prior server versions so not sure if that was possible even before.)

No. it's like if you own a Sun (now "Oracle") server. They will have an engineer at your sire within one hour. Of course I'm joking. Apple can't offer fast on-site 24x7 service. For that you need a "real" server company.

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 17, 2011, 03:58 PM
[QUOTE=Mattie Num Nums;12778264]To be fair to you though, it depends on what the server is doing. In an environment where the server is getting some good use it appears Xserve and OSX server just can't cut it. We were running an Xserve using tomcat, apache, and netboot only and it would just cave in on us all the time. Now we run our app on Windows 2008R2 and Netboot on a Mini with OSX server. Haven't had a problem since (except with Netbooting every now and then.)

The one thing OSX server does allow, is giving anyone the sensation of being a server admin. Temporarily of course.




I have been using the developer version of Lion since the day it was released. I have already created deployable versions of it. Its almost identical. Apple just removed the DVD Ripping process. It is not serialized. OS X client has never been serialized. It's the easiest to deploy.

I am sure you will change your attitude when you actually get to do it, instead of speculating about things you have not experienced.

I have the dev version as well and have been playing with it. Again, I want it in writing. I don't want Apple baiting and switching on us again.

matt4836
Jun 17, 2011, 03:58 PM
According to the linked PDF you need to buy 20 copies for the business licence, and the original question was about installing it on 10 machines. not 20.

As far as I'm aware, you're not allowed to use the "home version" in a commercial environment, but apologies if I'm mistaken.

You are a moderator, and think there is a home version of OS X? :confused:
Let's look at version matrix of OS X.......

GeekLawyer
Jun 17, 2011, 03:59 PM
What's the point? Can't people just buy it ONCE for $30 and install it as many times they want anyway? Why buy 20 licenses for $30 each if you can get 20 licenses for $30 in TOTAL?Because copy and license don't mean the same thing.

You are licensed to install it on your personal Macs for home use.

In corporate and business installations, you're not. Each computer must have a separate license.

Yes, you can install as many copies on as many computers as you want. But that's theft without the appropriate license.

Cougarcat
Jun 17, 2011, 03:59 PM
You are a moderator, and think there is a home version of OS X? :confused:
Let's look at version matrix of OS X.......

He's talking about licenses. Edit; beaten.

LoadStar
Jun 17, 2011, 03:59 PM
Can't they just do the business volume license at $30, which is a price decrease then? That being said, most educational Macs I've used had iWork (and iLife), so this will save money for those people, too.

Generally, no; Apple treats education completely differently than anyone else. That may be a question for an institution's Apple inside sales rep whether that is a possibility or not.

There are a few other nasty caveats with the AELP and the Mac software pack:
- you must cover 100% of your install base. You cannot pick and choose which machines to license. It's all or nothing.
- there is a first year, 10% enrollment fee.

On another note, I'm really curious what they plan to do in retail stores once Lion is released. Are they seriously going to keep stock of Snow Leopard and make people install that just to then download and install Lion? That is really inelegant (to put it mildly).

Voidness
Jun 17, 2011, 04:00 PM
Except then you have one licensed copy and nine pirated ones. As far as I know, the App Store doesn't allow you to buy the same app multiple times so I'm not sure how you'd buy ten licences in this case.
Actually, that's not true. Phil Schiller mentioned in the WWDC keynote that when you purchase Lion you can "use it on all your personal authorized Macs, so you won't have to buy multiple copies". I think according to the Mac App Store rules, you can authorize up to 5 Macs.

ChrisA
Jun 17, 2011, 04:00 PM
Apple's distribution plans for Lion are just unacceptable. My primary workstation is a MacBook owned by the company, but the App Store account on the system is my own. Regardless of the difficulty that alone brings, a downloadable-only distribution means I don't have a bootable disk for emergency repairs... .

No you don't have one but you could make one in a few minutes.

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 17, 2011, 04:01 PM
Another thing is how can Apple just decide oh we are changing everything everyone get on board!!! Microsoft gave us a 3 year plan to migrate OS's and Apple just gave us a few weeks. Hate on Microsoft all you want but they actually provide us support and roadmaps so we aren't all running around like crazy trying to appease our 10,000+ clients.

Porco
Jun 17, 2011, 04:01 PM
Still comes off as an arrogant and shambolic palaver to me.

I don't think it's about digital distribution being the future as much as it's about forcing everyone to have an iTunes account.

Pentad
Jun 17, 2011, 04:02 PM
This is why Apple is not enterprise friendly. While Lion Server is a nice price, the rollout for Lion will be a disaster for many IT people.

As a former IT Manager, I would be livid with this announcement. Imagine having a few hundred people with Macs and you have to install Lion on each machine via Internet!?! Ack! This means:

-No image deployment (not a HUGE deal but an inconvenience)
-No all-at-once department upgrade since it would kill network/Internet bandwidth.
-Sucks for users who aren't connected to the Internet. Believe me, many organizations have someone named Hazel sitting in some obscure corner of the publications department doing a task and she isn't connected to the Internet.

If it were me, I would push back the migration to Lion as far as possible or trickle it out over the next few years.

There is a reason volume licensing, volume imaging, and volume deployment exist. Apple is shooting themselves in the foot by not playing nicely with corporate customers.

Sadly, IT Managers that catch wind of this upgrade-only-via-Internet-per-machine crap will make sure the next person who suggestions an Apple Macintosh over a PC for a project is shot down faster than Flash on iOS.

I guess what makes me the most upset is that Apple could have really pushed for more integration into the Enterprise market as they have good software and quality products, but this is a major mistake.

-P

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 17, 2011, 04:03 PM
Still comes off as an arrogant and shambolic palaver to me.

I don't think it's about digital distribution being the future as much as it's about forcing everyone to have an iTunes account.

Bingo. Thats exactly what I think as well.


This is why Apple is not enterprise friendly. While Lion Server is a nice price, the rollout for Lion will be a disaster for many IT people.

As a former IT Manager, I would be livid with this announcement. Imagine having a few hundred people with Macs and you have to install Lion on each machine via Internet!?! Ack! This means:

-No image deployment (not a HUGE deal but an inconvenience)
-No all-at-once department upgrade since it would kill network/Internet bandwidth.
-Sucks for users who aren't connected to the Internet. Believe me, many organizations have someone named Hazel sitting in some obscure corner of the publications department doing a task and she isn't connected to the Internet.

If it were me, I would push back the migration to Lion as far as possible or trickle it out over the next few years.

There is a reason volume licensing, volume imaging, and volume deployment exist. Apple is shooting themselves in the foot by not playing nicely with corporate customers.

Sadly, IT Managers that catch wind of this upgrade-only-via-Internet-per-machine crap will make sure the next person who suggestions an Apple Macintosh over a PC for a project is shot down faster than Flash on iOS.

I guess what makes me the most upset is that Apple could have really pushed for more integration into the Enterprise market as they have good software and quality products, but this is a major mistake.

-P

Exactly how I am feeling right now. We have a big enough problem now with Apple moving stuff to an App Store we simply can't use. Why would I license a copy of something to an employees iTunes account when it belong to us. Unacceptable.

chrono1081
Jun 17, 2011, 04:03 PM
I hate to say it but your company is throwing money away if they are using Xserves for just iCal (CalDAV) and Wiki + Storage. They could use the existing PC Storage infrastructure and purchase ExtremeZI-P. Way better than any Xserve.

They are no stranger to throwing away money :p I think something else probably goes on because they have like 6 or 7 servers for 50 people so there is probably something I'm not seeing from my end that they use those things for. Too bad anything on the media side is always hush hush. :mad:

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 17, 2011, 04:05 PM
They are no stranger to throwing away money :p I think something else probably goes on because they have like 6 or 7 servers for 50 people so there is probably something I'm not seeing from my end that they use those things for. Too bad anything on the media side is always hush hush. :mad:

Probably Final Cut Pro Server using the RAID and XSAN.

baryon
Jun 17, 2011, 04:05 PM
Because copy and license don't mean the same thing.

You are licensed to install it on your personal Macs for home use.

In corporate and business installations, you're not. Each computer must have a separate license.

Yes, you can install as many copies on as many computers as you want. But that's theft without the appropriate license.

Okay... but how come it isn't cheaper in bulk then?

LoadStar
Jun 17, 2011, 04:06 PM
This is why Apple is not enterprise friendly. While Lion Server is a nice price, the rollout for Lion will be a disaster for many IT people.

As a former IT Manager, I would be livid with this announcement. Imagine having a few hundred people with Macs and you have to install Lion on each machine via Internet!?! Ack! This means:

-No image deployment (not a HUGE deal but an inconvenience)
-No all-at-once department upgrade since it would kill network/Internet bandwidth.
-Sucks for users who aren't connected to the Internet. Believe me, many organizations have someone named Hazel sitting in some obscure corner of the publications department doing a task and she isn't connected to the Internet.

If it were me, I would push back the migration to Lion as far as possible or trickle it out over the next few years.

There is a reason volume licensing, volume imaging, and volume deployment exist. Apple is shooting themselves in the foot by not playing nicely with corporate customers.

Sadly, IT Managers that catch wind of this upgrade-only-via-Internet-per-machine crap will make sure the next person who suggestions an Apple Macintosh over a PC for a project is shot down faster than Flash on iOS.

I guess what makes me the most upset is that Apple could have really pushed for more integration into the Enterprise market as they have good software and quality products, but this is a major mistake.

-P

I'm not thrilled with this either, but you need to re-read the PDF. You download the installer onto one machine, then either push it out to the remaining machines over the LAN (possibly using Apple Remote Desktop, or a similar infrastructure), or Apple would say you can use NetInstall/NetRestore.

You don't have to (and in fact, with this you cannot) download it from the App Store individually on each machine.

I think most of us in IT are trying to wrap our minds around how to handle this under non-Apple deployment methods; specifically, Casper or InstaDMG, scenarios Apple really doesn't speak to (and don't seem to care about).

akm3
Jun 17, 2011, 04:06 PM
As much as I hate serial numbers, isn't this a situation where a DISC with a serial number that authenticates on a server is like...a better, more elegant solution?

Cougarcat
Jun 17, 2011, 04:07 PM
This is why Apple is not enterprise friendly. While Lion Server is a nice price, the rollout for Lion will be a disaster for many IT people.

As a former IT Manager, I would be livid with this announcement. Imagine having a few hundred people with Macs and you have to install Lion on each machine via Internet!?! Ack! This means:

-No image deployment (not a HUGE deal but an inconvenience)
-No all-at-once department upgrade since it would kill network/Internet bandwidth.
-Sucks for users who aren't connected to the Internet. Believe me, many organizations have someone named Hazel sitting in some obscure corner of the publications department doing a task and she isn't connected to the Internet.


You just have to download it once. Then you can take the dmg and do whatever you please with it, just as if you had the install DVD. All Apple is doing here is removing the step to rip the damn thing.

People are unnecessarily worrying about this.

polaris20
Jun 17, 2011, 04:07 PM
Apparently I have a unique situation as one other poster pointed out. They said their OSX servers were tempermental and were surprised ours had zero issues.

EDIT: Ours are running snow leopard server so maybe that has something to do with it?

Perhaps. I'm running Snow Leopard Servers too, have only ran SL servers, and have had no problems. I quite like it.

Thunderhawks
Jun 17, 2011, 04:08 PM
People with a monthly bandwidth limit are going to be out in the cold on upgrading. Even if their limit is 8 gigs they're going to have to budget a month's worth of internet use just to download Lion.

How many people would be affected by this?

Nermal
Jun 17, 2011, 04:08 PM
Actually, that's not true. Phil Schiller mentioned in the WWDC keynote that when you purchase Lion you can "use it on all your personal authorized Macs, so you won't have to buy multiple copies". I think according to the Mac App Store rules, you can authorize up to 5 Macs.

As your quote says, personal Macs. I'm talking about purchasing it for a business.

Edit: I found this in the T&C:

(ii) If you are a commercial enterprise or educational institution, you may download a Mac App Store Product for use by either (a) a single individual on each of the Mac Computer(s) used by that individual that you own or control or (b) multiple individuals on a single shared Mac Computer that you own or control. For example, a single employee may use a Mac App Store Product on both the employee’s desktop Mac Computer and laptop Mac Computer, or multiple students may serially use a Mac App Store Product on a single Mac Computer located at a resource center or library. For the sake of clarity, each Mac Computer used serially by multiple users requires a separate license.

dashiel
Jun 17, 2011, 04:10 PM
Apple is not making a "major mistake", Apple is making the lives of a minority group of users a little more difficult while making the lives of the majority easier. It's an important distinction.

ericmooreart
Jun 17, 2011, 04:10 PM
Seems reasonable. Still don't like the App Store though. Would prefer DVD, USB, of SD card. also, Better have a hard drive defragger ready.

1 - Copy 4 gigs to your drive
2 - overwrite old system
3 - delete 4 gigs from your drive
4- defrag

heisetax
Jun 17, 2011, 04:10 PM
Lion is becoming a kind of boondoggle. Apple is going in the right direction, but they make it difficult for most people to jump on board. It's almost like they truly want to limit sales of their next OS.

I agree with you. The WWDC thing this year at least gave some time to the Mac OS. This is even though most of it was showing how they have dumbed down the Mac OS to just be another version of the iOS.

The part on iCloud was basically bad news for the Mac User. For this reason they never showed an iMac, Mac Mini or Mac Pro. They only showed the MacBook Pro enough to make it look like they were thinking of the Mac also.

As you have mentioned it looks like Steve Jobs wants to get rid of the Mac, but at this point he knows that it would hurt iOS product sales.

I stopped using my 64 GB iPod Touch as it would not wirelessly connect to any of my Macs. But a major part of that decision is that the app store is the only place to purchase software. Now if I was to change my Mac OS I have to go to tis same app store to purchase OS 10.7 Lion. It sounds as if this Lion has already bee neutered.

Cougarcat
Jun 17, 2011, 04:12 PM
The part on iCloud was basically bad news for the Mac User. For this reason they never showed an iMac, Mac Mini or Mac Pro. They only showed the MacBook Pro enough to make it look like they were thinking of the Mac also.


You are reading too much into it. The reason there was only one Mac in that picture was to make Steve's point that the "Digital Hub" is no more. The PC isn't the center of everything like it used to be; it is just another device. That doesn't mean it's going to go away. :rolleyes:

porky
Jun 17, 2011, 04:12 PM
So maybe it's better to buy a new mac today? Because you still get DVD's of snow leopard? Instead of a restore partition (i want to change the hard drive), or whatever with Lion.

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 17, 2011, 04:13 PM
You just have to download it once. Then you can take the dmg and do whatever you please with it, just as if you had the install DVD. All Apple is doing here is removing the step to rip the damn thing.

People are unnecessarily worrying about this.

Ok where does it specifically say you download the DMG intact. It doesn't. Its all speculation. Like I keep saying Apple needs to tell us what to do. We don't use any of Apple's deployment methods (except Netboot) because none of it is worth a damn. We use InstaDMG and Casper something that actually works and has real support.

ftaok
Jun 17, 2011, 04:15 PM
Actually, that's not true. Phil Schiller mentioned in the WWDC keynote that when you purchase Lion you can "use it on all your personal authorized Macs, so you won't have to buy multiple copies". I think according to the Mac App Store rules, you can authorize up to 5 Macs.

Mac App Store rules do not have limits to the number of Macs that can be authorized. If you're lucky enough to have 50 Macs in your household that you use the same Apple ID on, then you can install Lion on all 50 Macs for the same low price of $29.99.

iTunes has the 5 device limitation on videos (and non iTunes plus songs). MAS has no limits.

hugodrax
Jun 17, 2011, 04:17 PM
Can I just download lion from the app store, create a bootable lion DVD and upgrade or format and reinstall.

Or is lion going to perpetually require a snow leopard DVD to do a Microsoft style install?

I don't want to waste hd space on some stupid Microsoft style cheap oem computer restore partition.

LoadStar
Jun 17, 2011, 04:17 PM
As your quote says, personal Macs. I'm talking about purchasing it for a business.

Edit: I found this in the T&C:

I wonder if they'll have to revise that clause, because as it stands, this method of distribution has Apple violating their own T&C.

Cougarcat
Jun 17, 2011, 04:19 PM
Ok where does it specifically say you download the DMG intact. It doesn't. Its all speculation.

It's not all speculation. This is the way the DP installer works now, and with a month away until release, it's not going to change. In a month you will be able to install OS X the same way you are doing now.

Apple believes that their way is the best, so that's the way they are telling you to do it. It would be nice if they'd support other methods, but that's not how they roll.

Can I just download lion from the app store, create a bootable lion DVD and upgrade or format and reinstall.


Yes.

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 17, 2011, 04:21 PM
It's not all speculation. This is the way the DP installer works now, and with a month away until release, it's not going to change. In a month you will be able to install OS X the same way you are doing now.

Apple believes that their way is the best, so that's the way they are telling you to do it. It would be nice if they'd support other methods, but that's not how they roll.

OK, where does it say this. You're just speculating, my job relies on the right information.

mdriftmeyer
Jun 17, 2011, 04:22 PM
Zero problems? We have a ton of Xserve's and they are quite temperamental.

Way to deflect. What the hell does the hardware side have to do with the OS being solid?

mdriftmeyer
Jun 17, 2011, 04:23 PM
As your quote says, personal Macs. I'm talking about purchasing it for a business.

Edit: I found this in the T&C:

Suck it up. You're a business. Or should I say to avoid getting some nanny service warning, ``Do you actually expect a business owner to be extended the same measure as an individual not using the product for commercial use?''

Seriously, write it off.

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 17, 2011, 04:23 PM
Way to deflect. What the hell does the hardware side have to do with the OS being solid?

Way to not read any of the followups.

OSX Server is nothing but Unix with a bunch of tacked on GUI components.


Suck it up. You're a business.

Dude seriously get a life. People jobs rely on getting the correct information from a company who does nothing but puts dog and ponies shows on to the enterprise in order to get their iPads and iPhones out. Apple doesn't care about anything else anymore.

Nermal
Jun 17, 2011, 04:26 PM
Suck it up. You're a business.

Unless Apple updates the store to allow you to buy multiple copies, I'm not sure what you're suggesting :confused:

Edit: Or do you mean to buy 20 copies through Apple's business licensing even if you're only going to use ten?

In any case, it doesn't personally affect me; I'm only advocating on behalf of the person above who asked how to buy ten copies for a business.

Cougarcat
Jun 17, 2011, 04:28 PM
OK, where does it say this. You're just speculating, my job relies on the right information.

Given your job I assume you have access to the DP, test it out for yourself:

http://www.tuaw.com/2011/06/07/how-to-burn-a-lion-boot-disc/

If you are still worried that it will change before release, talk to your apple rep. I'm sure they'll say that you can install OS X the same way you are doing now.

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 17, 2011, 04:30 PM
Given your job I assume you have access to the DP, test it out for yourself:

http://www.tuaw.com/2011/06/07/how-to-burn-a-lion-boot-disc/

If you are still worried that it will change before release, talk to your apple rep. I'm sure they'll say that you can install OS X the same way you are doing now.

You mean the same rep that told us that Xserve's were being refreshed at WWDC this year so we shouldn't worry about investing in them. Yeah right. Like I said before Apple has zero reliability with Enterprises thats why I dont give a crap what TUAW says or what you say. I want to know what Apple says because at the end of the day my boss doesn't give a rats ass about Cougarcat's opinion he wants to know what Apple's roadmap is. They don't have one.

Thunderhawks
Jun 17, 2011, 04:31 PM
Way to not read any of the followups.

OSX Server is nothing but Unix with a bunch of tacked on GUI components.




Dude seriously get a life. People jobs rely on getting the correct information from a company who does nothing but puts dog and ponies shows on to the enterprise in order to get their iPads and iPhones out. Apple doesn't care about anything else anymore.

You sound like you need to go to the PC world to be happy.

Why bother with Apple if they don't do anything you like?

wikus
Jun 17, 2011, 04:33 PM
How many people would be affected by this?

In Canada, there are two dominant ISPs which control 90% or more of the market, Rogers and Bell. Both offer a starting bandwidth of 2gb, and the next option is 15gb and 25gb respectively.

You need to realize that YOU are not a complete representation of apple's consumer globally, nor a representation of an internet user globally as well.

heisetax
Jun 17, 2011, 04:33 PM
Apple's distribution plans for Lion are just unacceptable. My primary workstation is a MacBook owned by the company, but the App Store account on the system is my own. Regardless of the difficulty that alone brings, a downloadable-only distribution means I don't have a bootable disk for emergency repairs... I don't have a bootable DVD with hardware diagnostics... and frankly I know we live in a high-bandwidth world now, but every time I rebuild a system I don't want to have to install an OLD operating system in order to THEN update to the CURRENT operating system. This is the kind of junk I've seen Microsoft do with Windows 7 upgrades -- first install Windows XP on your computer, then install the Windows 7 upgrade. No, no, no! I erase the hard drive and do a CLEAN install of the CURRENT system. I don't care if it's a DVD or a USB drive or a 6-pack of CDs -- I don't care if costs $29 per station to do it -- but I MUST HAVE an individual bootable media for each computer I work with. This online distribution system had better not replace conventional business practices. Apple needs to think this through again.

This is just another step in Apple's want to control everything Mac, Apple or iOS. They ant a cut on everything Mac, this is just another of those steps. Wait until a Mac has to be ail broke to install software that did not come from the Apple app store.

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 17, 2011, 04:33 PM
You sound like you need to go to the PC world to be happy.

Why bother with Apple if they don't do anything you like?

Because I've been an Apple Engineer for the last 6 years (worked for Apple for 4 as well.) I love Apple's products I just don't like what Apple has been doing to Enterprises the past 2 years.

Why the hell is it so hard for some people here to accept the fact that you can like Apple's product but not like what Apple is doing.

nonameowns
Jun 17, 2011, 04:33 PM
holy moly the amount of ignorance in this thread is enormous. Learn to read people! :eek:

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 17, 2011, 04:36 PM
holy moly the amount of ignorance in this thread is enormous. Learn to read people! :eek:

You realize that PDF says nothing right. It says absolutely nothing. Its just a bunch of buzz words that sounds really great to people who have never used Netrestore, Netboot, System Imaging Utility.

wikus
Jun 17, 2011, 04:37 PM
Because I've been an Apple Engineer for the last 6 years (worked for Apple for 4 as well.) I love Apple's products I just don't like what Apple has been doing to Enterprises the past 2 years.

Why the hell is it so hard for some people here to accept the fact that you can like Apple's product but not like what Apple is doing.

I get this kind of answer frequently also. I absolutely despise what steve jobs and the company has become. But I do not see myself ditching OS X for a long time to come. Simply too good of a product.

Their mobile devices, however... too much proprietary bull, attention given to them (whilst forgetting about making good COMPUTERS), and legal drama/patent obsession which is borderline patent trolling.

hlfway2anywhere
Jun 17, 2011, 04:39 PM
OK, where does it say this. You're just speculating, my job relies on the right information.

How is saying "THIS IS HOW THE DEVELOPER PREVIEW WORKS NOW" speculation? I think you need a dictionary.

His/her response is telling you, and I'm telling you, that you are able to access the Lion install disc image intact when you download it from the App Store. This include burning to DVD, flash drive, and multiple installs. Please, stop asking the same question.

Riemann Zeta
Jun 17, 2011, 04:42 PM
It really seems like Apple has no idea what they want to achieve with Lion--it is as if they simply said "well, we need a new OS release, so let's just randomly change some things around, lock it down to the App Store distribution model and call it an OS." I mean, there is only a week or two left before developers have to sign off on the final GM release...and Apple still hasn't even indicated if they want to allow institutional customers (many of which not only will not want to, but literally cannot use the consumer-level App Store-only distribution model) to upgrade to Lion.

It honestly does seem like Apple wants to limit the sale and adoption of Lion. With all this chaos and their stubborn refusal to permit any physical distribution, Apple might have just as well announced that they are discontinuing all support for Mac OS in institutional, educational, government and corporate environments and will only be producing consumer electronics from here on out.

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 17, 2011, 04:42 PM
How is saying "THIS IS HOW THE DEVELOPER PREVIEW WORKS NOW" speculation? I think you need a dictionary.

His/her response is telling you, and I'm telling you, that you are able to access the Lion install disc image intact when you download it from the App Store. Please, stop asking the same question.

Thats awesome. Will we be deploying the Developer Preview? This just shows the ignorance in the community in relation to managing Mac environments. Would you walk into work and say, "Hey Boss lets do this upgrade I have this little document from Apple that says nothing, but the beta does this, and all these great people on Macrumors say its ok, lets write a check!" Thats not how it works bro. I have clients who bring billions of dollars in for this company and produce products that cost 5-100 million dollars a pop. We need to know. We don't "play around" or "go on what the DEV PREVIEW" does. We go on whats Gold Master. This isn't a sandbox kid, this is a big business.

bentoms
Jun 17, 2011, 04:43 PM
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Apparently I have a unique situation as one other poster pointed out. They said their OSX servers were tempermental and were surprised ours had zero issues.

EDIT: Ours are running snow leopard server so maybe that has something to do with it?

Perhaps. I'm running Snow Leopard Servers too, have only ran SL servers, and have had no problems. I quite like it.

I've managed OSX server 10.3 - 10.6 & will be using 10.7 when new servers arrive.

I've also managed windows 2003 & 2008 servers, small business & enterprise 32bit & 64bit. Virtualised & non virtualised (on dell & hp hardware).

All have had issues. None with 100% uptime over a year.

But no show stoppers & not enough for me to really recommend one above the other.

However, OSX server is very very flexible for the cost compared to win server.

But the support is poor. (well is in the Uk).

So for enterprise I'd suggest win over mac server for business critical stuff.

If you've a small company (50 users) osc server is a real bargain depending on what you use. (iCal, wiki, cross-platform native filesharing, ldap, mysql, web, VPN etc...) $49?????!!!!!! woah!!

Cydonia
Jun 17, 2011, 04:44 PM
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This is why Apple is not enterprise friendly. While Lion Server is a nice price, the rollout for Lion will be a disaster for many IT people.

As a former IT Manager, I would be livid with this announcement. Imagine having a few hundred people with Macs and you have to install Lion on each machine via Internet!?! Ack! This means:

-No image deployment (not a HUGE deal but an inconvenience)
-No all-at-once department upgrade since it would kill network/Internet bandwidth.
-Sucks for users who aren't connected to the Internet. Believe me, many organizations have someone named Hazel sitting in some obscure corner of the publications department doing a task and she isn't connected to the Internet.

If it were me, I would push back the migration to Lion as far as possible or trickle it out over the next few years.

There is a reason volume licensing, volume imaging, and volume deployment exist. Apple is shooting themselves in the foot by not playing nicely with corporate customers.

Sadly, IT Managers that catch wind of this upgrade-only-via-Internet-per-machine crap will make sure the next person who suggestions an Apple Macintosh over a PC for a project is shot down faster than Flash on iOS.

I guess what makes me the most upset is that Apple could have really pushed for more integration into the Enterprise market as they have good software and quality products, but this is a major mistake.

-P

"You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe.

You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes." -iMorpheus

NAG
Jun 17, 2011, 04:46 PM
Thats awesome. Will we be deploying the Developer Preview? This just shows the ignorance in the community in relation to managing Mac environments. Would you walk into work and say, "Hey Boss lets do this upgrade I have this little document from Apple that says nothing, but the beta does this, and all these great people on Macrumors say its ok, lets write a check!" Thats not how it works bro. I have clients who bring billions of dollars in for this company and produce products that cost 5-100 million dollars a pop. We need to know. We don't "play around" or "go on what the DEV PREVIEW" does. We go on whats Gold Master. This isn't a sandbox kid, this is a big business.

You know that macs continue to work after 10.7 is released even if they don't have 10.7 installed, right? I'm sure they'll give you enough time to find out all the details about the installation process before activating the killswitch that explodes every mac not with a 10.7 install.

In all seriousness, has Apple ever given good documentation for an OS prior to a release day even being announced?

prowlmedia
Jun 17, 2011, 04:46 PM
OK the way I see it...

Will be available on Appstore.

2 weeks later in Apple stores as a Disc.

I have a 50mb connex. My parents about 512k if they are lucky. just the area they are in. 4GB is a massive DL!

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 17, 2011, 04:46 PM
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I've managed OSX server 10.3 - 10.6 & will be using 10.7 when new servers arrive.

I've also managed windows 2003 & 2008 servers, small business & enterprise 32bit & 64bit. Virtualised & non virtualised (on dell & hp hardware).

All have had issues. None with 100% uptime over a year.

But no show stoppers & not enough for me to really recommend one above the other.

However, OSX server is very very flexible for the cost compared to win server.

But the support is poor. (well is in the Uk).

So for enterprise I'd suggest win over mac server for business critical stuff.

If you've a small company (50 users) osc server is a real bargain depending on what you use. (iCal, wiki, cross-platform native filesharing, ldap, mysql, web, VPN etc...) $49?????!!!!!! woah!!

This is a true statement as well. I think the reliability issue comes down to the fact that we have a huge user base and Apple's support is horrible. For a small business without a dedicated Server admin OSX Server is great because anyone can set it up. Its also dangerous because... anyone can set it up!


You know that macs continue to work after 10.7 is released even if they don't have 10.7 installed, right? I'm sure they'll give you enough time to find out all the details about the installation process before activating the killswitch that explodes every mac not with a 10.7 install.

In all seriousness, has Apple ever given good documentation for an OS prior to a release day even being announced?

Actually before we moved to Leopard Apple was great. The engineer came in and sat down with us and made an action plan, checked all our server leases etc. Things started going downhill when Snow Leopard was released. We noticed Apple's support was near-zero. Come to find out all the support was being shifted to iOS. Now the support is non existant. Apple at one timed cared about the business world.

bentoms
Jun 17, 2011, 04:48 PM
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You sound like you need to go to the PC world to be happy.

Why bother with Apple if they don't do anything you like?

Because I've been an Apple Engineer for the last 6 years (worked for Apple for 4 as well.) I love Apple's products I just don't like what Apple has been doing to Enterprises the past 2 years.

Why the hell is it so hard for some people here to accept the fact that you can like Apple's product but not like what Apple is doing.

+1

(fellow Casper admin here too. 9 years mac tech so far).

Cougarcat
Jun 17, 2011, 04:48 PM
You mean the same rep that told us that Xserve's were being refreshed at WWDC this year so we shouldn't worry about investing in them. Yeah right. Like I said before Apple has zero reliability with Enterprises thats why I dont give a crap what TUAW says or what you say. I want to know what Apple says because at the end of the day my boss doesn't give a rats ass about Cougarcat's opinion he wants to know what Apple's roadmap is. They don't have one.

In that case, you will have to live with the fact that Apple wants you to use their tools for distribution. Either that, or wait until after Lion comes out and you've verified that you can still do it your way.

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 17, 2011, 04:49 PM
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+1

(fellow Casper admin here too. 9 years mac tech so far).

*High Five*

I love Casper and JAMF. The people at JAMF are amazing (and also frustrated with Apple.) Do you post on the Casper Mailing List at all?


In that case, you will have to live with the fact that Apple wants you to use their tools for distribution.

What tool? System Image Utility and Netboot do one thing... put an OS on the system. Thats only the beginning of the story for Admins (and also the easiest part.) The difficult part is mass deployment of 100% modular images that allow easy updating and management across large user bases in different locations. I think thats the part you're not understand from me. Apple has NO tools for management. They have SOME tools but in this case some only gets you 1/4 of the way.

I'm sure LeBron could use that extra 1/4 :D

timbloom
Jun 17, 2011, 04:49 PM
Starting at $39 for education? That's a price INCREASE from the current program. Currently 25 seats is $899, or $35.96/seat.

The other bad part with the program is that you're forced to take iLife and iWork, even if you don't want or need them.

If you read the document, OS X alone is $29.99 per seat starting at 20 seats. So it's a price drop.. And holy crap $39.99 for the mac box set. Apple's ripping themselves off.

bentoms
Jun 17, 2011, 04:52 PM
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+1

(fellow Casper admin here too. 9 years mac tech so far).

*High Five*

I love Casper and JAMF. The people at JAMF are amazing (and also frustrated with Apple.) Do you post on the Casper Mailing List at all?


In that case, you will have to live with the fact that Apple wants you to use their tools for distribution.

What tool? System Image Utility and Netboot do one thing... put an OS on the system. Thats only the beginning of the story for Admins (and also the easiest part.) The difficult part is mass deployment of 100% modular images that allow easy updating and management across large user bases in different locations. I think thats the part you're not understand from me. Apple has NO tools for management. They have SOME tools but in this case some only gets you 1/4 of the way.

I'm sure LeBron could use that extra 1/4 :D

Frequently. Same name as here!

Sent e-mail linking this article earlier. :)

Manderby
Jun 17, 2011, 04:53 PM
As I am responsible for the installations I just read the whole pdf.

The time I would need to get this licensing right, prepare the installation package and initiate the upgrade on all machines via AppStore would cost more money than all licenses together.

Give me a DVD. In SnowLeopard, the whole update process required less than 3 minutes of my time.

Well, good thing Rosetta is not included, so we can not legitimate to upgrade anyway.

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 17, 2011, 04:54 PM
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Frequently. Same name as here!

Sent e-mail linking this article earlier. :)

AHHH thats right. This has been a hot topic. A lot of the Casper Admins out there scratching their heads on this one. I just spent 3 years justifying why we need Macs and now with this and the dead of Server and support... we might be slowly eliminating Macs, especially if all software moves to the App Store.

jayducharme
Jun 17, 2011, 04:56 PM
What great timing. Yesterday I had contacted our regional education rep to ask what the process was for upgrading to Lion. He didn't know then. I guess he knows now....

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 17, 2011, 04:57 PM
What great timing. Yesterday I had contacted our regional education rep to ask what the process was for upgrading to Lion. He didn't know then. I guess he knows now....

Thats another thing that scares me with Enterprise/Educational support. Most of the people from Apple that are supposed to be holding our hands and helping us out usually have no clue whats going because of Apple's NDA. Most of the time they find out after I call them and go YO WHAT THE HELL!

bentoms
Jun 17, 2011, 05:00 PM
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Frequently. Same name as here!

Sent e-mail linking this article earlier. :)

AHHH thats right. This has been a hot topic. A lot of the Casper Admins out there scratching their heads on this one. I just spent 3 years justifying why we need Macs and now with this and the dead of Server and support... we might be slowly eliminating Macs, especially if all software moves to the App Store.

I think we will still be able to create an OS using instaDMG or composer of a booted OS as per what we are doing now.

This app store process is for small business methinks.

But looks like my mac mini Casper servers (5 x servers, only 150 clients) will be 10.7. What the hell! Macs have no management now, so me buffeting about won't matter!

Oh & AppStore? Block + self service...

Just double check app licensing, but I guess developers will allow dloads from there sites for Corp users.

hlfway2anywhere
Jun 17, 2011, 05:09 PM
Thats awesome. Will we be deploying the Developer Preview? This just shows the ignorance in the community in relation to managing Mac environments. Would you walk into work and say, "Hey Boss lets do this upgrade I have this little document from Apple that says nothing, but the beta does this, and all these great people on Macrumors say its ok, lets write a check!" Thats not how it works bro. I have clients who bring billions of dollars in for this company and produce products that cost 5-100 million dollars a pop. We need to know. We don't "play around" or "go on what the DEV PREVIEW" does. We go on whats Gold Master. This isn't a sandbox kid, this is a big business.

iCal'd.

I'll be right here to tell you how right I am, and how apple never changes the entire installation process a couple weeks before launching the OS, once Lion gets released.

ravenvii
Jun 17, 2011, 05:12 PM
In Canada, there are two dominant ISPs which control 90% or more of the market, Rogers and Bell. Both offer a starting bandwidth of 2gb, and the next option is 15gb and 25gb respectively.

You need to realize that YOU are not a complete representation of apple's consumer globally, nor a representation of an internet user globally as well.

I keep reading this - but 2 GB is absolutely ridiculous. For a cell phone plan, maybe, but not for a landline.

But are you sure this is true? I'm not calling you a liar, but I wonder.

I've tried to Google this, and I've found Rogers' cap to start at 60 GB - which is, while pretty low, isn't as ridiculous as 2 GB.

hipollito
Jun 17, 2011, 05:15 PM
Thats awesome. Will we be deploying the Developer Preview? This just shows the ignorance in the community in relation to managing Mac environments. Would you walk into work and say, "Hey Boss lets do this upgrade I have this little document from Apple that says nothing, but the beta does this, and all these great people on Macrumors say its ok, lets write a check!" Thats not how it works bro. I have clients who bring billions of dollars in for this company and produce products that cost 5-100 million dollars a pop. We need to know. We don't "play around" or "go on what the DEV PREVIEW" does. We go on whats Gold Master. This isn't a sandbox kid, this is a big business.

Well I totally agree with you about knowing things for sure and to know what the exact plan or "move" is gonna be for business you canīt trust rumors or speculation when you have big bucks and big company to maintain.

But itīs also true that you wont find an answer that is gonna satisfy you in here...all we know is that Lion is coming through the app store, everything else weīll find out,...

So i think you have to work with what you got and make a wise choice, as I see it you have: wait till Lion is out try it out and then tell your boss lets upgrade or letīs wait, I donīt think it is like "upgrade on the first day of Lion or you will be fired"

Or...call apple and ask, even talk to Steve Jobs if for you and your company is necessary, i think those are al the options right now, relax and let the things flow..

Also apple or any other company isnīt going to improve their service if we as costumers donīt speak and tell them that we do not like their service (business wise) Iīve had great service from apple as a costumer. So tell them they left you alone since SL was released. donīt you think? Maybe if only you tell them nothing will happen but if a lot of business do, then maybe they will get it...

FrizzleFryBen
Jun 17, 2011, 05:23 PM
Great first step for business customers! Now all I need is a business Apple ID for every other piece of software to be sold in App Store. Preferably before FCPX comes out!

Xtremehkr
Jun 17, 2011, 05:28 PM
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I hope this works well, the next step will be to start making optical drives optional as software distribution goes digital.

The optical drive is the least used part of my iMac or MBPro. An iMac could accommodate more of the features I do use without an optical drive.

A MBPro without an optical drive could have any number of additional items. Everything from a larger battery to a second (high capacity) HDD to complement a fast system SSD.


All of this hand wringing over changes in technology is ridiculous considering that technology is supposed to be constantly improving. Incorporating new ideas as they become usable and abandoning them once they're obsolete.

Xenomorph
Jun 17, 2011, 05:32 PM
OK, $1,000 for 25 copies of OS X, iLife, and iWork? I can do that.

We may only use 5-10 copies at first, but I'm sure we will have people ask about getting a copy eventually. When a request comes in to purchase a copy of OS X, we can say "no charge for this one" because the department will be sitting on 15-20 extra copies... :rolleyes:

Having the latest iWork and iLife thrown in helps.

We may use 2-3 copies as the Server version as well.

jdechko
Jun 17, 2011, 05:36 PM
Well I totally agree with you about knowing things for sure and to know what the exact plan or "move" is gonna be for business you canīt trust rumors or speculation when you have big bucks and big company to maintain.

But itīs also true that you wont find an answer that is gonna satisfy you in here...all we know is that Lion is coming through the app store, everything else weīll find out,...

So i think you have to work with what you got and make a wise choice, as I see it you have: wait till Lion is out try it out and then tell your boss lets upgrade or letīs wait, I donīt think it is like "upgrade on the first day of Lion or you will be fired"

This.

Obviously, the move to the App store has been faster than a lot of people had imagined. I mean, first we got the App store, and people thought "cool." We all imagined that 10.7 would have App store functionality, but I don't think anyone expected it to only be available from the App Store. I know I didn't.

Like you said, though, most companies are going to want to test the hell out of Lion for compatibility and bugs before mass deploying it. That means 10.7.1 at the soonest and maybe 10.7.2 or .3. What sysadmin would willingly* put the network at risk just to have 10.7 right away (*unless it came down as a mandate from a higher up)?

I realize that you IT guys still have a lot of unanswered questions, and you're probably feeling some pressure from the bosses, but we all know that the right thing to do from a usability standpoint involves a lot of testing and tweaking existing methods to work with the new workflows. It's why enterprise and government are always a couple of releases behind. Here at the FAA, we're still running XP, IE 8 (finally), Office 2003, and the second newest release of Microstation. I'm sure the answers will come and by 10.7.4 we will all look back and laugh (hopefully).

All of this to say that right now, I really don't envy you guys. ;)

steadysignal
Jun 17, 2011, 05:39 PM
Just that easy folks.

is it, REALLY?

G4DP
Jun 17, 2011, 05:39 PM
Most users who didn't upgrade to snow leopard probably won't upgrade to lion either, so this is probably not really an issue for apple. For those still running leopard, you're already one release behind, so upgrading to snow leopard now will be exciting for those people.

Well that's horsepoo!

I waited till 10.4 to upgrade my machine at home, from 9.2.2.

Just because someone doesn't want to waste money on things that don't benefit them doesn't mean they should be frozen out of future upgrades. Do you even consider the fact the not everyone thought 10.5 part 2 was worth the $30?

I don't see anything in Lion that will benefit me in my work, so because of this I should not be allowed to upgrade to the next over inflated 'magical' OS?

aristotle
Jun 17, 2011, 05:46 PM
Well that's horsepoo!

I waited till 10.4 to upgrade my machine at home, from 9.2.2.

Just because someone doesn't want to waste money on things that don't benefit them doesn't mean they should be frozen out of future upgrades. Do you even consider the fact the not everyone thought 10.5 part 2 was worth the $30?

I don't see anything in Lion that will benefit me in my work, so because of this I should not be allowed to upgrade to the next over inflated 'magical' OS?
If you are expecting to run Lion on that same machine then that is wishful thinking on your part. Leopard was the last version of OS X to support PowerPC.

Are you for real? Are you telling us the you are too damn cheap to pay 30 or 60 (30+30) bucks for a new version of OS X? Really?

Xenomorph
Jun 17, 2011, 05:49 PM
The only thing the PDF said about Server is that it costs $50 from the App Store.

We have 1-4 servers we may upgrade. How can I buy 4 copies? Make 4 throw-away iTunes accounts?? Where is this answered? The PDF only talks about non-Server bundles.

iBug2
Jun 17, 2011, 05:50 PM
I read something about this, but I don't have any use/desire for a restore partition. I want to manually backup, then perform a 100% clean install (with all of my space) and I'll "restore" items manually as desired. I'm one of the few that want *absolutely no assistance* (or cruft).

Well you can't. You can manually backup, then perform a 100% clean install as long as you have the Lion installer on a separate partition/disk, but you'll always have a restore partition which the installer automatically creates. You may be able to delete that partition after the install, though I haven't tried it.

fat jez
Jun 17, 2011, 05:56 PM
I keep reading this - but 2 GB is absolutely ridiculous. For a cell phone plan, maybe, but not for a landline.



That's the certainly the case here in the UK. Some basic packages have stupidly low bandwidth allocations.

e.g. http://www2.postoffice.co.uk/broadband-phone/home-phone-broadband/compare-home-phone-broadband
Ģ16.30 a month, 5GB usage cap.

thompson11
Jun 17, 2011, 05:57 PM
I've read the thread, but can't figure something out:

What happens if you do a hard drive replacement — completely blank, unpartitioned drive?

Is there any way to install Lion without going through Snow Leopard? And by "any way" I mean a supported installation path, rather than digging out the .dmg from the installer package.

benthewraith
Jun 17, 2011, 05:59 PM
I've read the thread, but can't figure something out:

What happens if you do a hard drive replacement — completely blank, unpartitioned drive?

Is there any way to install Lion without going through Snow Leopard? And by "any way" I mean a supported installation path, rather than digging out the .dmg from the installer package.

I personally plan on creating a restoration partition on an external hard drive as well in case my internal hard drive needs to be replaced.

Install OS X to an old external, store it, mount it via Target Disk Mode, and copy the installation over in case I get a new hard drive.

G4DP
Jun 17, 2011, 06:00 PM
If you are expecting to run Lion on that same machine then that is wishful thinking on your part. Leopard was the last version of OS X to support PowerPC.

Are you for real? Are you telling us the you are too damn cheap to pay 30 or 60 (30+30) bucks for a new version of OS X? Really?


Again another assumption. No that machine is happily playing as a media server now. Money isn't the option. Not everyone throws money away on pointless and needless upgrades. Which is what Lion is. Some people actually treat their Mac's as tools Lion will not improve my productivity, so no i'm not going to waste money on features that are included for the thick and lazy.

CJYetman
Jun 17, 2011, 06:00 PM
You mean the same rep that told us that Xserve's were being refreshed at WWDC this year so we shouldn't worry about investing in them. Yeah right. Like I said before Apple has zero reliability with Enterprises thats why I dont give a crap what TUAW says or what you say. I want to know what Apple says because at the end of the day my boss doesn't give a rats ass about Cougarcat's opinion he wants to know what Apple's roadmap is. They don't have one.


So, wait... you want to "know what Apple says", but you don't trust anything they say anyway.... and you don't want to take someone else's firsthand experience with it, nor are you satisfied by downloading the DP and seeing for yourself...

so what exactly would make you satisfied?

DannySmurf
Jun 17, 2011, 06:02 PM
I keep reading this - but 2 GB is absolutely ridiculous. For a cell phone plan, maybe, but not for a landline.

But are you sure this is true? I'm not calling you a liar, but I wonder.

I've tried to Google this, and I've found Rogers' cap to start at 60 GB - which is, while pretty low, isn't as ridiculous as 2 GB.

Bell's bandwidth caps are between 2GB on the lowest tier and 75GB on the highest.

However, on any tier, you can buy additional monthly bandwidth for $5 (40GB), $10 (80GB), or $15 (120GB).

So, this is really only a problem for anyone who wants it to be a problem. Anyone who can't afford $30 a month instead of $25 (at the lowest tier) to pay for bandwidth they require shouldn't be farting around with operating system downloads. #priorities

DCJ001
Jun 17, 2011, 06:04 PM
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How does this help someone like me with a medical clinic and ten macs? It still sounds like a PITA.

Hopefully, you have a proctologist in your clinic to take care of that PITA.

gohanmzt
Jun 17, 2011, 06:06 PM
We should have gotten a clue from the name that apple gave to this release.

It's not "MAC OSX" Lion, now it's only "OSX" Lion.

First, they dropped "computer" from their name, demoted the Mac to being another appliance and now they killed the "Mac" in their OS. I don't want to go into crazy speculations, but it doesn't look good looking into the future.

DannySmurf
Jun 17, 2011, 06:22 PM
Just because someone doesn't want to waste money on things that don't benefit them doesn't mean they should be frozen out of future upgrades.

Never mind what "should" happen. Apple is not performing a public service. If you don't find the upgrade worthy enough for your system, then don't upgrade. That's entirely your choice, but that choice INCLUDES the risk that you may get left behind next time.

Personally, I think it's high-time Apple and Microsoft BOTH start leaving users that refuse to upgrade behind. They've held the rest of the world back for a long time.

Aussie John
Jun 17, 2011, 06:22 PM
Zero problems? We have a ton of Xserve's and they are quite temperamental.

What do Xserves have to do with OSX server?

DCJ001
Jun 17, 2011, 06:31 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

All of the crybabies should "trust the Force."

Steve will make sure that everyting is fine.

benthewraith
Jun 17, 2011, 06:37 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

All of the crybabies should "trust the Force."

Steve will make sure that everyting is fine.

Steve went over to the dark side a long time ago.

skythefly13
Jun 17, 2011, 06:38 PM
I still don't quite understand how Apple expects Leopard and earlier users to upgrade to Lion if they only do digital delivery via Mac App Store. Are they still going to sell Snow Leopard DVDs, so you upgrade twice? That would be very un-apple like.

I'm not entirely sure they really care. Seeing Lion and knowing they can't have the "latest and greatest thing" will make people with older macs want to upgrade.

acslater017
Jun 17, 2011, 06:38 PM
You are a moderator, and think there is a home version of OS X? :confused:
Let's look at version matrix of OS X.......

I believe they meant Home/Family purchase, as opposed to an enterprise deployment

acslater017
Jun 17, 2011, 06:43 PM
We should have gotten a clue from the name that apple gave to this release.

It's not "MAC OSX" Lion, now it's only "OSX" Lion.

First, they dropped "computer" from their name, demoted the Mac to being another appliance and now they killed the "Mac" in their OS. I don't want to go into crazy speculations, but it doesn't look good looking into the future.

I think you're looking too deeply into it. Even as the iPhone was getting ready, they started re-inserting the word "Mac" into all of their Mac product names. iBook = MacBook, PowerBook = MacBook Pro, etc.

The Lion "About This Mac" pane still refers to it as Mac OS X.

It's just a matter of official name, short name, nickname etc. In their videos, they simply refer to it as "Lion". I mean not everyone calls is "Microsoft Windows XP". More often just "Windows XP" or simply "XP".

Tower-Union
Jun 17, 2011, 06:49 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Mobile/8J2)

If you are expecting to run Lion on that same machine then that is wishful thinking on your part. Leopard was the last version of OS X to support PowerPC.

Are you for real? Are you telling us the you are too damn cheap to pay 30 or 60 (30+30) bucks for a new version of OS X? Really?


Again another assumption. No that machine is happily playing as a media server now. Money isn't the option. Not everyone throws money away on pointless and needless upgrades. Which is what Lion is. Some people actually treat their Mac's as tools Lion will not improve my productivity, so no i'm not going to waste money on features that are included for the thick and lazy.

Yeah! His performa 5200 runs just fine and OS 8 is all he needs to get online and bitch about software he doesn't want in the first place! Now get off his lawn you damn kids!

acslater017
Jun 17, 2011, 06:49 PM
Still comes off as an arrogant and shambolic palaver to me.

I don't think it's about digital distribution being the future as much as it's about forcing everyone to have an iTunes account.

That, and reducing piracy. Come on, who hasn't bought a single OS X CD and let their friend "borrow" it? Apple's been extremely lenient and generous in the past on this - no serial numbers, no registration required...

Despite its flaws, I think this method will go a long way towards encouraging people to obtain legit software. That, and it somehow allows them to price it at $30...

840quadra
Jun 17, 2011, 06:52 PM
Never mind what "should" happen. Apple is not performing a public service. If you don't find the upgrade worthy enough for your system, then don't upgrade. That's entirely your choice, but that choice INCLUDES the risk that you may get left behind next time.

Personally, I think it's high-time Apple and Microsoft BOTH start leaving users that refuse to upgrade behind. They've held the rest of the world back for a long time.

Apple already leaves users of old software and hardware behind quite quick as it is. They really don't need to speed up the forced obsolescence cycle, it is a bit too quick for many people's taste as it is.

Eidorian
Jun 17, 2011, 06:55 PM
XCode was definitely a sign of thing to come. It is rather annoying to get dragged alongside.

Soy Cowboy
Jun 17, 2011, 06:59 PM
The price is essentially $30 dollars. Companies take off a penny to trick people into thinking the price is cheaper than it is. When people see $29.99, they think twenty something dollars. I think it would be more accurate for sites to report the price as $30 as that gives readers a better sense of the real price.

Sorry, pet peeve.

benthewraith
Jun 17, 2011, 07:00 PM
The price is essentially $30 dollars. Companies take off a penny to trick people into thinking the price is cheaper than it is. When people see $29.99, they think twenty something dollars. I think it would be more accurate for sites to report the price as $30 as that gives readers a better sense of the real price.

Sorry, pet peeve.

True story, studies actually prove this is effective.

Yamcha
Jun 17, 2011, 07:06 PM
The price is essentially $30 dollars. Companies take off a penny to trick people into thinking the price is cheaper than it is. When people see $29.99, they think twenty something dollars. I think it would be more accurate for sites to report the price as $30 as that gives readers a better sense of the real price.

Sorry, pet peeve.

Yeah that is true.

Cougarcat
Jun 17, 2011, 07:16 PM
The price is essentially $30 dollars. Companies take off a penny to trick people into thinking the price is cheaper than it is. When people see $29.99, they think twenty something dollars.

Indeed, this is why most (all?) Apple accessory prices end in a "9."

Lion would have probably been $29 again if it weren't for the app store, where prices have to end in ".99."

alent1234
Jun 17, 2011, 07:18 PM
Some people don't upgrade EVERY release. They upgrade every other release, or when they feel the features apply enough to them to warrant an upgrade.

I'm set, as I run 10.6. But I know a number of folks who are going to be left behind by Apple's plan.

apple will just sell them a new Mac, the real profit maker for them

DannySmurf
Jun 17, 2011, 07:19 PM
Apple already leaves users of old software and hardware behind quite quick as it is. They really don't need to speed up the forced obsolescence cycle, it is a bit too quick for many people's taste as it is.

Hardware obsolescence isn't particularly quick, I think. When Lion is released, most machines up to 5 years old will be able to run it without hacking.

On the software side, I'd argue that Apple is making this better, not worse. The upgrades are not coming significantly faster than they have before (Snow Leopard was released 22 months after Leopard; Lion will be released 21 or 22 months after Snow Leopard). But, they've been getting cheaper.

I paid $130 for the Leopard upgrade, $30 for the Snow Leopard upgrade, and now I'm going to pay $30 for the Lion upgrade, but with the added benefit that I can legally put it on every Mac I own. This is NOT a raw deal.

So now you have to download the new OS instead of buying a CD/DVD. If that's the price to pay for drastically cheaper upgrades (at roughly the same interval as before), so be it.

cirus
Jun 17, 2011, 07:32 PM
I wonder if Apple will offer fee SL via the web to Tiger and Lion users?

I'm not in need myself. But there seems to be a few people affected by this. It is a small minority though because the statistics show SL has been adopted by a large majority of Mac users which is impressive. In the Windows world it is 25% W7, 25% XP and the rest use other versions. I only used it occasionally so I can compare but I guess XP was pretty popular for many Windows users.

Anyway Apple can't expect to make sales of SL now with Lion out for $29. So why not let people download it if necessary or release an App Store for Tiger and Leopard that can download one thing: Lion.

Some hasn't looked at wikipedia in a long time. :rolleyes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows
~ 53% worldwide is XP, 25% is 7, Vista is 10%. That is of the total operating system usage worldwide (windows is 88%).
So in reality of windows users, 60% use XP, 28% use 7, and 11.4% use vista. 50% DO NOT use other versions. It works out to ~2%.

yadmonkey
Jun 17, 2011, 07:34 PM
Hardware obsolescence isn't particularly quick, I think. When Lion is released, most machines up to 5 years old will be able to run it without hacking.

On the software side, I'd argue that Apple is making this better, not worse. The upgrades are not coming significantly faster than they have before (Snow Leopard was released 22 months after Leopard; Lion will be released 21 or 22 months after Snow Leopard). But, they've been getting cheaper.

I paid $130 for the Leopard upgrade, $30 for the Snow Leopard upgrade, and now I'm going to pay $30 for the Lion upgrade, but with the added benefit that I can legally put it on every Mac I own. This is NOT a raw deal.

So now you have to download the new OS instead of buying a CD/DVD. If that's the price to pay for drastically cheaper upgrades (at roughly the same interval as before), so be it.

I'm trying to keep an open mind and reserve final judgement for when this all actually shakes out, but for now my gut says that I'd rather pay more for a DVD.

I like clean installs. Maybe I'm stuck in the past, but doing a clean install of 10.6 and then upgrading to 10.7 through an application just seems less clean. Add the third step for 10.7 server and it gets more cumbersome.

And there are a ton of users still out there on 10.5 who will want to upgrade at some point and their apparent upgrade path is truly bizarre.

Kar98
Jun 17, 2011, 07:35 PM
I still don't quite understand how Apple expects Leopard and earlier users to upgrade to Lion if they only do digital delivery via Mac App Store. Are they still going to sell Snow Leopard DVDs, so you upgrade twice? That would be very un-apple like.

Digital only delivery of the OS: it's how I upgraded my mini to Leopard and later Snow Leopard. No physical disc was involved after the Tiger discs that came with it. I don't even know where they are. :cool:

Xenomorph
Jun 17, 2011, 07:45 PM
Digital only delivery of the OS: it's how I upgraded my mini to Leopard and later Snow Leopard. No physical disc was involved after the Tiger discs that came with it. I don't even know where they are. :cool:

It doesn't matter how you upgraded in the past, Apple has stated that you can only download Mac OS X 10.7 from 10.6.

What about the 10.5 or even 10.4 users then?

behrangsa
Jun 17, 2011, 07:48 PM
What about those users that have 2 or 3 macs at home? Should they download Lion three times?

DannySmurf
Jun 17, 2011, 07:50 PM
I'm trying to keep an open mind and reserve final judgement for when this all actually shakes out, but for now my gut says that I'd rather pay more for a DVD.

I like clean installs. Maybe I'm stuck in the past, but doing a clean install of 10.6 and then upgrading to 10.7 through an application just seems less clean. Add the third step for 10.7 server and it gets more cumbersome.

And there are a ton of users still out there on 10.5 who will want to upgrade at some point and their apparent upgrade path is truly bizarre.

You can do a clean install of 10.7 now if you want to. As others have said (repeatedly), it's a simple matter to create a DVD or bootable USB stick from the download. There's no evidence that that is going to change with the final release.

As for 10.5 - Apple may simple not be interested in catering to those users. It's nothing personal. The cost of creating and distributing media to allow these people to upgrade is probably not worth the potential (their upgrade intent is questionable if they're still on a 4-year-old operating system) revenue to be gained.

DannySmurf
Jun 17, 2011, 07:51 PM
What about those users that have 2 or 3 macs at home? Should they download Lion three times?

They can. Or, as enough people have said now, they can download once and create bootable media from what they've downloaded.

Cougarcat
Jun 17, 2011, 07:51 PM
It doesn't matter how you upgraded in the past, Apple has stated that you can only download Mac OS X 10.7 from 10.6.

What about the 10.5 or even 10.4 users then?

They can buy SL and Lion for $60. Apple will have to offer some sort of a solution after they stop selling SL. Maybe they will update the Mac Box Set with Lion media.

Kar98
Jun 17, 2011, 08:01 PM
It doesn't matter how you upgraded in the past, Apple has stated that you can only download Mac OS X 10.7 from 10.6.

What about the 10.5 or even 10.4 users then?

What about them? The number of people that use 10.4 and 10.5 on their machines AND would/could upgrade to 10.7 has to be insignificant at this point in time for various reasons.

yadmonkey
Jun 17, 2011, 08:06 PM
As for 10.5 - Apple may simple not be interested in catering to those users. It's nothing personal. The cost of creating and distributing media to allow these people to upgrade is probably not worth the potential (their upgrade intent is questionable if they're still on a 4-year-old operating system) revenue to be gained.

How do you know people's upgrade intent? 10.5 may be nearing 4 years old, but 10.6 hasn't even been out for two years. There are a ton of Macs still running 10.5 and whether or not they intend to upgrade now, I have a feeling that iCloud services and the Mac App Store will eventually push a lot of them in that direction. 10.7 will offer a lot more temptation to 10.5 users than 10.6 ever did.

grahamperrin
Jun 17, 2011, 08:08 PM
That price drop on Lion Server is enormous. I can't get over it.

Even more impressive than the cost of Server:

"… the Apple Software Collection, which consists of Mac OS, iLife, and iWork, with pricing starting at $39 per license for an order quantity of 25 licenses. …"

I don't expect pricing to appear in the UK Apple Store for Education any time soon but I'm sure it'll be equally appealing.

grahamperrin
Jun 17, 2011, 08:24 PM
ten macs

Download once. Use Apple Remote Desktop (http://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/apple-remote-desktop/id409907375) to run the Lion installer on multiple Macs.

azentropy
Jun 17, 2011, 08:25 PM
Apple's distribution plans for Lion are just unacceptable. My primary workstation is a MacBook owned by the company, but the App Store account on the system is my own. Regardless of the difficulty that alone brings, a downloadable-only distribution means I don't have a bootable disk for emergency repairs... I don't have a bootable DVD with hardware diagnostics...

What are you using now as your bootable DVD with hardware diagnostics and emergency repairs and how does upgrading your MacBook change that? I must have missed the part about Apple coming and taking the DVD's you already have if you upgrade... ;)

winston1236
Jun 17, 2011, 08:36 PM
Most users who didn't upgrade to snow leopard probably won't upgrade to lion either, so this is probably not really an issue for apple. For those still running leopard, you're already one release behind, so upgrading to snow leopard now will be exciting for those people.

Wrong. I skipped snow leopard to wait for lion because I didn't really see a need for the upgrade. I bought snow leopard a few days ago to get lion.

grahamperrin
Jun 17, 2011, 08:36 PM
App Store only

Bear in mind, this is a business and education topic.

For an organisation: a single download is ideal, and the ease with which a major OS upgrade can be distributed and installed should be a dream come true.

If your Mac is neither owned nor managed by an organisation: bear in mind that the how to upgrade page is currently focused on day one (http://diigo.com/0hpk5). If you can't use the App Store, please send feedback to Apple.

hayesk
Jun 17, 2011, 08:36 PM
I'm trying to keep an open mind and reserve final judgement for when this all actually shakes out, but for now my gut says that I'd rather pay more for a DVD.

I like clean installs. Maybe I'm stuck in the past, but doing a clean install of 10.6 and then upgrading to 10.7 through an application just seems less clean. Add the third step for 10.7 server and it gets more cumbersome.

You still can do a clean install. When you buy 10.7 from the App store, it downloads the installer, but it doesn't start the install right away.You can put it on a bootable USB stick. Boot from the USB stick, run the installer, wipe your internal HD and install.

rdav
Jun 17, 2011, 08:41 PM
So there will be no way to buy OS-X 10.7 for cash (unless "used" on the back-market maybe), even as a gift? And Apple has to have my machine, online, personal ID, financial & address information etc to make a sale? Gotta tell you, I value my privacy and that is just hideous. :mad:

OllyW
Jun 17, 2011, 08:46 PM
What about them? The number of people that use 10.4 and 10.5 on their machines AND would/could upgrade to 10.7 has to be insignificant at this point in time for various reasons.

Around 23% of Mac users are running 10.5 with about 6% using 10.4. If only a quarter of them want to upgrade to 10.7 that will leave 4 million disappointed when they find out they are out of luck.

caspersoong
Jun 17, 2011, 08:52 PM
I still am disappointed that people like developing countries which have lousy internet access will find it difficult to download Lion. Prices for internet access here are mad as well. So on top of the 29.99 you have to pay for the data transfer.

laflores
Jun 17, 2011, 08:54 PM
Around 23% of Mac users are running 10.5 with about 6% using 10.4. If only a quarter of them want to upgrade to 10.7 that will leave 4 million disappointed when they find out they are out of luck.

Dowload it in a mac with 10.6, copy it into a USB drive, copy the file in your computer, and then install.

For people outside USA, distributing OS X using the App Store is a bless. We can have the software the first day, and pay a similar price.
For Snow Leopard, the local store started selling it after 2 weeks, and the price was $49.

grahamperrin
Jun 17, 2011, 09:02 PM
...and what about those that simply like to archive/clean-install when a new OS arrives?

Amongst the options for you:

install Snow Leopard as cleanly as you like
upgrade to Lion.

grahamperrin
Jun 17, 2011, 09:05 PM
Where does it say that Lion Server doesn't require Snow Leopard Server?

In essence, regurgitating leaked information (http://www.hardmac.com/news/2011/06/03/mac-os-lion-server-will-not-come-for-free): Lion Server requires Lion.

Parallel to that: from a day one App Store purchase perspective, Lion Server requires Snow Leopard Server (http://diigo.com/0hww5).

If the Apple hardware (or virtual machine) that you'll use for Lion Server already has a license for Snow Leopard Server, then I guess you should be able to install Lion (then Lion Server) without first installing any other system.

If you do already have Snow Leopard Server, then (unless advised otherwise by Apple) follow the upgrade path.

OllyW
Jun 17, 2011, 09:07 PM
Dowload it in a mac with 10.6, copy it into a USB drive, copy the file in your computer, and then install.

You are assuming people will have easy access to another Mac and the technical competence to dabble with installation packages.

grahamperrin
Jun 17, 2011, 09:07 PM
… DVD. In SnowLeopard, the whole update process required less than 3 minutes of my time.

… including walking from machine to machine? How many machines? ;)

… a restore partition which the installer automatically creates. You may be able to delete that partition after the install …

I should caution against removing any partition that is installed with the system.

Removing utilities and other software could present problems … maybe not immediately, but at some point in the future.

basic packages have stupidly low bandwidth

For your business or educational institution, invest in something more than basic.

10.5 or even 10.4

Please see Apple's web site. Get up to date with the latest version of OS X Snow Leopard (http://diigo.com/0hpk5) …

firewood
Jun 17, 2011, 09:26 PM
So there will be no way to buy OS-X 10.7 for cash (unless "used" on the back-market maybe), even as a gift? And Apple has to have my machine, online, personal ID, financial & address information etc to make a sale? Gotta tell you, I value my privacy and that is just hideous.

Get someone else with a fast connection to install it for you using an account from an iTunes gift card. Apple gets none of your info.

grahamperrin
Jun 17, 2011, 09:28 PM
We have 1-4 servers we may upgrade. How can I buy 4 copies? Make 4 throw-away iTunes accounts?

Expect to use no more than one Apple ID.

grahamperrin
Jun 17, 2011, 09:36 PM
a downloadable-only distribution means I don't have a bootable disk for emergency repairs.

For repairs, you will have: the Recovery System (http://www.apple.com/uk/macosx/whats-new/features.html#internetrestore).

(If you're very unlucky — if your hard disk or SSD is damaged in a way that prevents use of the recovery system — then a separate DVD will probably not be capable of that type of repair.)

DannySmurf
Jun 17, 2011, 09:39 PM
How do you know people's upgrade intent? 10.5 may be nearing 4 years old, but 10.6 hasn't even been out for two years. There are a ton of Macs still running 10.5 and whether or not they intend to upgrade now, I have a feeling that iCloud services and the Mac App Store will eventually push a lot of them in that direction. 10.7 will offer a lot more temptation to 10.5 users than 10.6 ever did.

I didn't say I KNEW anyone's intent. But do a very loose calculation.

25% of all Mac users (approximately) are still using Leopard. They won't all upgrade; about 7% of Mac users are still on Tiger even now. If that trend holds, then the ceiling for Leopard users upgrading is 18% of Mac users. Subtract a percentage that will buy a new machine in the next year or so and wouldn't get the upgrade right away because of that (say 5 points of that 18), and now only 13% of Mac users are both using Leopard and MAY want to upgrade. 10.7 may be more tempting, so call that 15%.

So, is it worth it to Apple to eat the cost of distributing discs to service that (approx.) 3 million machines? Probably not. They were willing to write off something like 15 million PPC machines over the 3 years of the Intel switch. That they would leave 3-4 million Leopard users behind with this upgrade should not surprise anyone.

No one really has any right to get upset about it either. Apple pushes system upgrades aggressively. This is NOT NEW. Those still on Leopard can bellyache about it all they like. Doesn't change anything.

Kar98
Jun 17, 2011, 09:43 PM
Around 23% of Mac users are running 10.5 with about 6% using 10.4. If only a quarter of them want to upgrade to 10.7 that will leave 4 million disappointed when they find out they are out of luck.

How many of them will be able to upgrade to Lion even if, and that's a big if, they wanted to?

Step 1: Make sure your Mac can run Lion.

"Your Mac must have an Intel Core 2 Duo, Core i3, Core i5, Core i7 or Xeon processor to run Lion."

Leaves me out, btw.
10.4 was the end of the line for PPC CPUs, no 10.5 for them, meaning if you're still running 10.4, it's most likely because you're running a PPC-Mac, or you're not the upgrading kind of person anyway.
10.6 realistically requires at least 2 GB of RAM to run at any kind of reasonable speed even if Apple says 1 GB is the minimum. I know I'm pushing the lower limit here with that amount of memory. It is alas the most my mini will take.
10.7, the oldest CPUs supported will be Core 2 Duo, and the official minimum amount of RAM has doubled. That leaves me and machine in the dust.

So for me, and your calculated 4 million, the upgrade path is "new Mac", or "fuggedaboudit", making this whole "but what about people with 10.4 and .5?" argument rather moot.

dempson
Jun 17, 2011, 10:02 PM
How many of them will be able to upgrade to Lion even if, and that's a big if, they wanted to?

Step 1: Make sure your Mac can run Lion.

"Your Mac must have an Intel Core 2 Duo, Core i3, Core i5, Core i7 or Xeon processor to run Lion."

Leaves me out, btw.
10.4 was the end of the line for PPC CPUs, no 10.5 for them, meaning if you're still running 10.4, it's most likely because you're running a PPC-Mac, or you're not the upgrading kind of person anyway.

10.4 was only the end of line for PowerPC Macs with G3 processors and older G4 models with slower processors. Many G4s and all G5s can run 10.5.

(10.5 is officially supported on some PowerPC models as far back as mid 2001, all but one from late 2003, and all from April 2004.)

A significant chunk of the roughly 23% of Macs on 10.5 and 6% on 10.4 are PowerPC, which can't upgrade to Lion anyway, and another chunk will be Core Solo/Duo machines which can upgrade to Snow Leopard but haven't done so yet, and they can't run Lion either.

Even after allowing for those, there are still quite a lot of Lion-compatible models running 10.4 or 10.5 which may need an upgrade path.

ravenvii
Jun 17, 2011, 10:30 PM
Bell's bandwidth caps are between 2GB on the lowest tier and 75GB on the highest.

However, on any tier, you can buy additional monthly bandwidth for $5 (40GB), $10 (80GB), or $15 (120GB).

So, this is really only a problem for anyone who wants it to be a problem. Anyone who can't afford $30 a month instead of $25 (at the lowest tier) to pay for bandwidth they require shouldn't be farting around with operating system downloads. #priorities

Thanks for the clarification - this makes sense, and isn't as bad as I thought. I currently pay $40 per month for cable which has a 250 GB limit. In Canada, that'd be 150 GB of bandwidth, which is plenty (I generally use 60 GB a month. That includes Netflix, software downloads, normal browsing, a little BitTorrent here and there (mostly Linux distros... really).).

I'm still glad that Canadians are fighting back hard against caps - that'll prevent the greedy pigs up on top from getting too far.

Dustman
Jun 17, 2011, 10:44 PM
In Canada, there are two dominant ISPs which control 90% or more of the market, Rogers and Bell. Both offer a starting bandwidth of 2gb, and the next option is 15gb and 25gb respectively.

You need to realize that YOU are not a complete representation of apple's consumer globally, nor a representation of an internet user globally as well.

We have Bell DSL in Halifax and its unlimited 15Mb/2Mb. No Caps. Eastlink Cable internet is unlimited too for 20Mb/1Mb. It must change across the country.

MCIowaRulz
Jun 17, 2011, 10:50 PM
Well since it is "Mac App Store ONLY" 3 Hours to get Lion when I could save 1/2 the time by going to the Apple Store and getting it:(
3 Mbps Internet Only

Xenomorph
Jun 17, 2011, 11:12 PM
Expect to use no more than one Apple ID.

You can't buy something more than once on the App Store.

If I buy one Mac OS X Server download for $50, do I still have to use a key? Wouldn't it tell me I've "already purchased" it if I try to buy another copy of Mac OS X Server?

This information for business users has been total crap. It is Apple spitting in our faces and not answering questions.

petvas
Jun 17, 2011, 11:41 PM
In essence, regurgitating leaked information (http://www.hardmac.com/news/2011/06/03/mac-os-lion-server-will-not-come-for-free): Lion Server requires Lion.

Parallel to that: from a day one App Store purchase perspective, Lion Server requires Snow Leopard Server (http://diigo.com/0hww5).

If the Apple hardware (or virtual machine) that you'll use for Lion Server already has a license for Snow Leopard Server, then I guess you should be able to install Lion (then Lion Server) without first installing any other system.

If you do already have Snow Leopard Server, then (unless advised otherwise by Apple) follow the upgrade path.

Let me rephrase: If I don't have a license for Snow Leopard Server, can I just buy Lion and on top of that Lion Server, or would I need to buy Snow Leopard Server too? The way I understand it, is that without a valid Snow Leopard Server license it won't be possible to use Lion Server.

robeddie
Jun 17, 2011, 11:48 PM
Lion creates a restore partition on your hard drive. Also, as it works now, at least with the developer previews, it can be burned to DVD.

What if that hard drive crashes, fails, becomes unusable ... like dozens of hard drives in my life already have?

cmaier
Jun 17, 2011, 11:50 PM
What if that hard drive crashes, fails, becomes unusable ... like dozens of hard drives in my life already have?

ignored the part where it can be burned to dvd?

benthewraith
Jun 18, 2011, 12:01 AM
Well since it is "Mac App Store ONLY" 3 Hours to get Lion when I could save 1/2 the time by going to the Apple Store and getting it:(
3 Mbps Internet Only

You have any idea what the pipes are going to be like upgrade day? Going to be more than 3 hours.

germinator
Jun 18, 2011, 12:44 AM
What? You would be buying a business license, you are allowed to do this.

Anyway, for home users, you can also install it on any mac that uses your AppleID.


Why? Does the installation require an AppleID? Or is it only the DOWNLOAD that requires the AppleID?

petvas
Jun 18, 2011, 12:45 AM
ignored the part where it can be burned to dvd?

Yes, but this will be for many users not easy and I am sure they won't create a DVD. Lion should just be offered in DVD also.

MacTroy
Jun 18, 2011, 12:52 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8H7 Safari/6533.18.5)

One thing that all the "real IT guys" are concerned about, which the folks who are saying "just don't upgrade; it's not like everything just stops working when 10.7 releases" don't appear to understand, is that enterprise IT is all about process. Once 10.7 releases, it's got to become part of our process whether we want it to or not. Let me explain.

I currently have an InstaDMG-based process for creating a base image, and a KBOX-based process for deploying additional applications. It is working for 10.6.x, and I still have an emergency 10.5.x image set for the four G5s we still have on campus. Believe me, I'm in no hurry to upgrade any of these machines to 10.7. Apple will have to a) provide InstaDMG-compatible disk images of 10.7 and b) create terms (some kind of terms, anything at all, really) for enterprise use of the App Store, including volume App Store purchases AND a way to block users from purchasing OS updates because they sound cool.

Our IT department is not politically capable of (nor interested in) preventing faculty from installing software, so users have privileges to do so. Without a means to block a Lion App Store purchase, and in the absence of an actual volume licensing model in the App Store, it's guaranteed that some of our users will buy Lion. At that point, if I don't have a process for rebuilding that computer, we have a problem.

Even more problematic -- and this is a point I've seen no one raise -- is that a Lion dependency/requirement is pretty much a given on any new Macs purchased after the release. We have hundreds of college-owned Macs which are on a standard replacement cycle; we have thousands of student-owned Macs, at least 1/4 of which are new every year. Lion will be on our campus network within days after release. I give it less than a month after release before someone, student or faculty, shows up at the help desk with a failing/corrupted Lion boot volume. If I don't have Lion integrated into our enterprise desktop management systems by that point, our help desk folks will be sitting there ad hoc troubleshooting that system like a kid trying to fix his mom's computer on the kitchen table, only less efficiently. We do not have the resources to do "one-off"-style support of Lion machines, hoping against hope that Apple will eventually catch up to us with enterprise-friendly distribution and licensing. Those things need to be in place now, before Lion is released.

I love Apple's Mac products. They've made our labs and classrooms extremely flexible; their build quality is above average, and OS X is a great system. Apple needs to do more to provide basic support to higher ed, or we'll start to see the shift towards Apple turn back around here. I, and many others in higher ed IT, are not asking for handholding; we just need Apple to stop actively working against us.

germinator
Jun 18, 2011, 12:53 AM
I don't think it's about digital distribution being the future as much as it's about forcing everyone to have an iTunes account.

But many will just download the image via BitTorrent without needing an iTunes account....

yadmonkey
Jun 18, 2011, 12:55 AM
So, is it worth it to Apple to eat the cost of distributing discs to service that (approx.) 3 million machines? Probably not. They were willing to write off something like 15 million PPC machines over the 3 years of the Intel switch. That they would leave 3-4 million Leopard users behind with this upgrade should not surprise anyone.

3-4 million is a lot of copies and I'm sure most of those people wouldn't sneeze if you charged them $5 extra for the physical media, which I would guess - considering the number of blu ray movies I'm seeing under $10 these days - should more than cover the costs.

I think you're overestimating the cost involved in printing commercial DVDs, especially if you're comparing this to a fundamental change in processing architecture.

No one really has any right to get upset about it either. Apple pushes system upgrades aggressively. This is NOT NEW. Those still on Leopard can bellyache about it all they like. Doesn't change anything.

Who are you replying to? I'm not getting upset, though I find it truly bizarre that you are making declarations about what people do and do not have the right to get upset about.

I quite like that Apple has been willing to push out the old in favor of the new when it matters, but in this case, it seems unnecessary and premature.

hrishidev
Jun 18, 2011, 01:03 AM
Well,
To get Lion you need to be Technologically very advanced , if you are not , then dont come onboard on Apple ship crusing at very higfh speed of technology....
simple ******* urself :mad:

10.6 (why you did not update it when we release it?)
Apple ID and credit card , buyig Retail copy with cash is not possible (you dont have credit card yet ?)

Internet connection high speed and big data plan , (even if your ISP provides high speed internet with limited data plan , you are looser dude!! )

I dont include hardware compatibility , supporting old hardware is not good idea but for compatible hardware Apple should provide upgrade option.

Cougarcat
Jun 18, 2011, 01:32 AM
Why? Does the installation require an AppleID? Or is it only the DOWNLOAD that requires the AppleID?

That's what the license stipulates: you can install it on any mac with your AppleID. Same rules as mac store apps. I'm pretty sure it will only ask when you download it, but we'll have to see.

di1in
Jun 18, 2011, 01:50 AM
I still don't quite understand how Apple expects Leopard and earlier users to upgrade to Lion if they only do digital delivery via Mac App Store. Are they still going to sell Snow Leopard DVDs, so you upgrade twice? That would be very un-apple like.

Maybe Apple intends to teach a lesson to the good folks who did not upgrade to the "worlds most advanced operating system" when it came out back then.. besides this is just a case of how said OS "advanced even further" - so maybe they have a reason?

miografico
Jun 18, 2011, 02:06 AM
I give the Mac App Store Approach 6 months before you can buy it on USB.
Will they ever release it on optical media, nope, but they will release it on USB and here is why:

I currently have Verizon Fios as home and we have Fios at our business location. If your pipes are big enough we can achieve 50mbps down. If I am downloading something for one of our Windows boxes - say a service pack - excellent download speed from MS's servers. Now, if I am downloading an OS X point update speed from Apple's servers are usually half of the throughput from MS.

Ok, no problem... now on the Mac App Store go and download a huge application - because obviously none of you have. Do you know how long it took us to download Xcode? An hour and 20 minutes with Fios service! Do you know how long it took a guy we had working in San Francisco through Comcast? SIX HOURS!

Don't believe me? Think it's isolated? Read the reviews for XCode on the App Store.

This is a huge disaster waiting to happen. Love Apple, but this nonsense is Jobs knowing he doesn't have that much time left and more than anything iCloud is what he wants to be his legacy. I don't like saying that because it's morbid, but if you remember his keynote in 97 you will know exactly what I mean. I am sure this idea led to some major strife with upper management and he had the final say.

In terms of all you enterprise guys out there. Until he is officially not CEO anymore enterprise customers are third on the list: right now the order is

1.) Targeted consumer products customers i.e. iPhones, iPads and iPods
2.) Mac consumer customers and the majority of those customers are notebook customers
3.) Enterprise customers

This was a dumb way to go about this release and that arrogance IS going to affect their bottom line. Just wait until you go to download the damn thing and you're achieving 10kbps down. All you consumer customers that is who could obviously give a crap less about enterprise folks as all those people seem to get voted down.

calcvita
Jun 18, 2011, 03:17 AM
some people don't get it. it's not about making things easier for the masses. the upgrade process was easy enough, you pop in the dvd, wait for the disk to mount and proceed with the upgrade.
as some people here already pointed out, it's about apple forcing everybody who wants to use their newest os to have an apple id. they've done it with ios and now they're gonna do it with lion, too.

piracy was never an issue for apple, at least not to the extent it is for microsoft. i mean c'mon people, how high is the % number of pirated copies of os x? and compare that to the % of pirated windows copies out there.
it's all about gathering credit card info (so they can brag about it on the next wwdc…..)

i want to buy it (lion) on physical media, even if i have to pay a little more, so please apple give me that option!

and in a few years time, the mac app store will be the only way to install software on "your" mac. i know steve jobs said otherwise, but seeing the way os x is going, i don't believe him.

just my 2 cents…..

fat jez
Jun 18, 2011, 03:36 AM
But many will just download the image via BitTorrent without needing an iTunes account....

I wonder if Apple will embed the Apple ID used to purchase Lion into the image itself? Could make things unpleasant for a few people who decide to distribute Lion illegally (assuming they are dumb enough to use a real ID to get hold of the original install image).

marksman
Jun 18, 2011, 04:10 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8G4 Safari/6533.18.5)

Apple is not making a "major mistake", Apple is making the lives of a minority group of users a little more difficult while making the lives of the majority easier. It's an important distinction.

It seems this change will make a little more work for those who get paid to install oses for a living and less work for those who don't. Seems reasonable to me.

Manderby
Jun 18, 2011, 05:35 AM
… including walking from machine to machine? How many machines? ;)
Actually yes, including walking. We cover about 25 Macs, Usermachines, laptops and Lab machines. Which in my opinion is a common amount of devices for a small company or an higer educational lab. Which is what Mac OS X once was targeted for. Too few devices to start a whole freaking project just for an upgrade but too many devices to just ignore the time used per device.

iBug2
Jun 18, 2011, 06:10 AM
I should caution against removing any partition that is installed with the system.

Removing utilities and other software could present problems … maybe not immediately, but at some point in the future.



That's why I said "you may". I haven't tried it myself and it can cause issues yes, but it may not as well. Until someone tries, we won't know.

Jerome Morrow
Jun 18, 2011, 07:43 AM
Yes, but this will be for many users not easy and I am sure they won't create a DVD. Lion should just be offered in DVD also.

Is it that hard to open Disk Utility and press Burn -> then select a dmg file? If this is hard they shouldn't be using computer at all.

JohnDCCIU
Jun 18, 2011, 07:45 AM
Yes... I have used multiple versions of Mac OS X Server (10.3 and 10.4 server), and abandoned it because they were so buggy.

Windows Server is extremely stable. Sorry you had issues, but at my work, we run a ton of them and don't experience the kind of downtime you're speaking of.

IMO, this is either ignorance/inexperience or disingenuousness talking.

We have about 50/50 Windows and Mac servers, been running both for many, many years. There's no doubt that the Windows servers are higher maintenance and way more buggy than the Mac servers. Both have their issues, but the ones on the Mac side are far easier to deal with and less serious.

I have so many Windows stories of BSODs, corrupted NTFS (where HFS+ keeps on truckin'), crazy/crappy drivers that are a crapshoot to install, inability to image/migrate easily, external storage issues, BIOS silliness that locks up the machine at the boot screen, terrible utility software for things like RAIDs, inability to tell what the heck chipsets and other components are in the box, vendor confusion and a morass of conflicting versions and drivers, inability to run multiple versions of software on the same machine, the list goes on and on and on.

Some people just know what they know and love to putter around forever with driver versions and DLL nonsense: it becomes their hobby and their life. In their minds they construct a straw man about "The Mac", that it's absolutely perfect and never has an issue, then when they see a few small issues (which all systems have, of course), they throw up their hands and bemoan the "unstable" Mac. In the meantime, they've somehow skipped over in their heads the absolutely hell that they go through on a regular basis with Windows.

It's pretty clear preference bias based on a detailed knowledge of how to navigate the various Windows Hells that exist, with concurrent lack of knowledge about the far less significant (but nonetheless present, of course) challenges that Macs present.

HyperZboy
Jun 18, 2011, 07:50 AM
I have a question which I've not seen answered anywhere yet...

Since Leopard was a whole new operating system compared to Tiger and Snow Leopard and Lion are like $29-$39 updates (IMHO), is Apple going to continue to do security updates for Leopard after Lion is released?

I know the standard policy is to only support the last operating system and provide normal updates to the current one, but people paid a lot more money to Apple for Leopard than for Snow Leopard and Lion.

Considering how long Microsoft has continued to support Windows XP, I think it would only be fitting that Apple continue to provide Leopard security fixes.

Has anyone read anything about this yet? I wonder this because obviously that factor might affect some peoples' purchasing decisions, including mine.

Kar98
Jun 18, 2011, 07:58 AM
Apple spitting in our faces and not answering questions.

Yeah, like that's new :rolleyes:

KnightWRX
Jun 18, 2011, 08:04 AM
Our IT department is not politically capable of (nor interested in) preventing faculty from installing software, so users have privileges to do so. Without a means to block a Lion App Store purchase, and in the absence of an actual volume licensing model in the App Store, it's guaranteed that some of our users will buy Lion. At that point, if I don't have a process for rebuilding that computer, we have a problem.

Sounds to me like your problem is not the lack of a proper Lion VL program, it's the lack of a proper IT policy. Our 20,000 or so PCs are standardised to Windows XP. We haven't upgraded to Vista and I think we're just now starting to look into Windows 7 (I'm not in the PC group).

We moved to Windows XP from Windows 2000 circa 2006 or 2007 just to give you an hint. Want to scrap your laptop and install Linux or whatever (I did with mine) ? Fine, but don't expect IT to work on it. That's the crux of the issue. As a department, IT needs clear guidelines and needs to draw lines. You can't just support a big mess and free-for-all and you can't make your users force upgrades that might or might not require tons of infrastructure upgrades along the way. That's just paving the road to unwarranted spending.

Manage your IT better.

macsmurf
Jun 18, 2011, 08:14 AM
Our IT department is not politically capable of (nor interested in) preventing faculty from installing software, so users have privileges to do so. Without a means to block a Lion App Store purchase, and in the absence of an actual volume licensing model in the App Store, it's guaranteed that some of our users will buy Lion. At that point, if I don't have a process for rebuilding that computer, we have a problem.


At my company we have two kinds of users: managed(Windows XP) and unmanaged(Windows, Linux, OS X). The managed users are not allowed to install software and the unmanaged users can do what they want. When a managed user experiences problems, helpdesk will reinstall their machine in the worst case. When an unmanaged user experiences problems they're officially on their own (although we'll get some help if we really need it which we rarely do). The unmanaged users number less than a hundred and are mostly developers so it is not a big expense for IT to answer the odd question once in a while.

I find this to be reasonable and it sucks that you're forced to support users that mess up their stuff in various way. Faculty might be one thing but students too? Why not let the students at least pay for the privilege of having access to support?

That being said I completely agree that Apple are screwing enterprise customers over in a number of ways but that isn't really news. ;)

SwissMac2
Jun 18, 2011, 08:17 AM
Two questions:

1) What about businesses with less than 20 Macs? The way I read this article it seems we can buy Lion only if we pay for 20 licences ie 20 x $29.99 = $600?

2) Not everyone has fast broadband - there are still large parts of the country that still only have dial up available. Are these folks to be left out of the Apple moneyfest?

bartzilla
Jun 18, 2011, 08:42 AM
To actually download Lion, volume license customers will receive one redemption code for each contract. The redemption code can be used to download Lion from the Mac App Store. When the redemption code is entered, the Lion installer will download to the Applications folder, but will not install immediately. This Lion installer is used to install Lion on other systems. Download once, install many times.

IT departments will be able to use the same mass installation techniques they use today. To install Lion on multiple systems, they'll copy the Install Mac OS X Lion application from the Mac App Store to each target system. Once copied, the installer will be launched and Lion will install in place. There is no need to boot from an external disk. Administrators will also be able to use System Image Utility in OS X Lion Server to create NetInstall or NetRestore Images.


I'm still hearing "blah blah blah we are going to make it more difficult to do business with us for bulk licenced products" from Apple. I hope they don't mind hearing "blah blah blah turns out you're not the only game in town" in the reply they get.

MorphingDragon
Jun 18, 2011, 08:59 AM
XCode was definitely a sign of thing to come. It is rather annoying to get dragged alongside.

How so and in what way? XCode 4 was an improvement over 3 and distribution methods was a complete non-issue.

DannySmurf
Jun 18, 2011, 09:26 AM
I think you're overestimating the cost involved in printing commercial DVDs, especially if you're comparing this to a fundamental change in processing architecture.

I'm actually not estimating the cost at all. My (rhetorical) question is whether Apple considers it worth the cost (WHATEVER the cost is) to upgrade the users who are lagging behind. Given the lack of a Leopard upgrade path, I'm confused as to why you'd even question that. It certainly gives me the impression that they don't. If the profit they'd gain was worth the cost and effort, they'd probably do it.

Also, "cost and effort" does not just mean pressing and distributing media. There's also the support resources that need to be retained to support these users once the system is released, development resources that need to be re-tasked with ensuring that the actual OS code that runs the update works properly with Leopard, internationalization resources (translators) to work on the Leopard binaries, QA resources that need to be retained indefinitely to test every future change they make against a system upgraded from Leopard, etc, etc, etc. The distribution costs may be trivial (or maybe not, I really wouldn't know). I can assure you, the development and support costs are not.

Who are you replying to? I'm not getting upset, though I find it truly bizarre that you are making declarations about what people do and do not have the right to get upset about.

That was a poor choice of words, yes. It wasn't a reply to anything, and not directed at you; just a general statement. People have the "right" to get upset about whatever they like. It would have been better to say that there's no real justification for the level of upset.

I quite like that Apple has been willing to push out the old in favor of the new when it matters, but in this case, it seems unnecessary and premature.

I never find this sort of thing unnecessary and premature. As a developer and a technology enthusiast, I'm very conscious of just how far back the technology world gets held by people who won't upgrade regularly. I'm thrilled any time Apple (or Microsoft for that matter) puts those users on the spot and forces them to make the choice to join the rest of us or get left behind.

DannySmurf
Jun 18, 2011, 09:38 AM
2) Not everyone has fast broadband - there are still large parts of the country that still only have dial up available. Are these folks to be left out of the Apple moneyfest?

Apple's response would probably be that it's time you start demanding better than dial-up from your providers. It's 2011.

DannySmurf
Jun 18, 2011, 09:40 AM
I'm still hearing "blah blah blah we are going to make it more difficult to do business with us for bulk licenced products" from Apple. I hope they don't mind hearing "blah blah blah turns out you're not the only game in town" in the reply they get.

Because historically Apple has always immediately buckled every time someone threatens to pay Microsoft's licensing fees instead?

LoadStar
Jun 18, 2011, 10:11 AM
How so and in what way? XCode 4 was an improvement over 3 and distribution methods was a complete non-issue.

Actually, it has been a bit of an issue, particularly for schools and other organizations that would like to offer the dev tools to multiple users.

The two ways to get XCode 4 are either to pay $99 and get it through the Developer Program, or buy it through the Mac App Store. Getting it through the Developer Program clearly indicates it is not for further distribution... and getting it through the Mac App Store also limits redistribution.

As of right now, there is no way that I'm aware of to get XCode 4 and legally place it onto machines in a computer lab, for instance.

Kwill
Jun 18, 2011, 10:20 AM
According to the linked PDF you need to buy 20 copies for the business licence, and the original question was about installing it on 10 machines. not 20.

As far as I'm aware, you're not allowed to use the "home version" in a commercial environment, but apologies if I'm mistaken. (Edit: See below).

So you but the license for 20 and use 10. You are still not paying $129 or more each. If you clinic grows, you'll have extra seats. Total cost is $580. Compare this to 10 seats for Windows 7 (http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-windows_install/what-is-the-price-list-for-the-different-versions/628c55ae-d546-e011-9575-d8d385dcbb12).

alfonsog
Jun 18, 2011, 11:01 AM
Apple's "real" solution to all this upgrade drama is for everyone to buy all new systems when Lion is out and pre-installed. Do you think they will include system software on USB key or DVD then?

On my Mac Pro I switched my boot drive to a SSD and installed Snow Leopard from the DVD, so for Lion there is no solution for doing that... for now... so either there will be physical media OR Apple doesn't ever want you to upgrade or repair your boot drive (very likely) without bringing it in for service.

Cougarcat
Jun 18, 2011, 11:12 AM
Apple's "real" solution to all this upgrade drama is for everyone to buy all new systems when Lion is out and pre-installed. Do you think they will include system software on USB key or DVD then?


Nope.


On my Mac Pro I switched my boot drive to a SSD and installed Snow Leopard from the DVD, so for Lion there is no solution for doing that... for now... so either there will be physical media OR Apple doesn't ever want you to upgrade or repair your boot drive (very likely) without bringing it in for service.

You got it. (Though you can do maintenance and repair via the restore partition.)

Stella
Jun 18, 2011, 11:20 AM
How so and in what way? XCode 4 was an improvement over 3 and distribution methods was a complete non-issue.

Except having to re-download 4 gigs every time an update came out.

Fortunately Lion MacAppStore will support deltas.

KnightWRX
Jun 18, 2011, 11:36 AM
Except having to re-download 4 gigs every time an update came out.

And except for the fact that it isn't free anymore, not matter how much the cheerleaders try to justify it is "cheaper". A guy with a Mac can't just say "Hey, I want to try to write code for this thing using Apple's tools" anymore without forking over the cash.

MacTroy
Jun 18, 2011, 12:09 PM
As a department, IT needs clear guidelines and needs to draw lines. You can't just support a big mess and free-for-all and you can't make your users force upgrades that might or might not require tons of infrastructure upgrades along the way.

It's unfortunately not my call, and there's a deeply-embedded cultural issue that we've been fighting for years. That said, you're absolutely right on this point, and I quite agree with you.


However, the issue with new hardware remains out of our control. We can't stop buying new hardware to replace old/broken college-owned equipment, we can't forbid students to purchase new Macs, and Mac OS (unlike most Windows variants) flat-out refuses to boot on hardware newer than itself. This means I'm in the Lion business come August/September, IT guidelines be damned. Apple could make this easier on the enterprise, but they seem to be uninterested at the moment.

DannySmurf
Jun 18, 2011, 12:11 PM
And except for the fact that it isn't free anymore, not matter how much the cheerleaders try to justify it is "cheaper". A guy with a Mac can't just say "Hey, I want to try to write code for this thing using Apple's tools" anymore without forking over the cash.

Technically true, but you're being melodramatic. "Forking over the cash?" It's $5.

MCIowaRulz
Jun 18, 2011, 12:20 PM
Nope.



You got it. (Though you can do maintenance and repair via the restore partition.)


I agree 100% Apple is following the lead of PC manufactures with regards to not shipping DVD's anymore with the system. It sucks for us "IT Guru's" but that is the way it is.

I hope though that I can make my own DVD in much the same way you can make your own "Recovery DVD" with many PC's.

GS17
Jun 18, 2011, 12:50 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

[url=http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/17/apple-details-lion-purchase-process-for-business-and-education/]Like the consumer release, OS X Lion will be available via online delivery only.

I still don't quite understand how Apple expects Leopard and earlier users to upgrade to Lion if they only do digital delivery via Mac App Store. Are they still going to sell Snow Leopard DVDs, so you upgrade twice? That would be very un-apple like.

They just want them to buy new computers with Lion pre-installed because you cannot fully appreciate Lion without a ThunderBolt port in your machine

OllyW
Jun 18, 2011, 12:53 PM
They just want them to buy new computers with Lion pre-installed because you cannot fully appreciate Lion without a ThunderBolt port in your machine

Does Lion work better than Snow Leopard with non-existing peripherals? ;)

krzyglue
Jun 18, 2011, 01:43 PM
What? You would be buying a business license, you are allowed to do this.

Anyway, for home users, you can also install it on any mac that uses your AppleID.

But there's a 20 license minimum to qualify for the business price though, right?

Cougarcat
Jun 18, 2011, 01:50 PM
But there's a 20 license minimum to qualify for the business price though, right?

Yes, but even if you only utilized ten licenses, it would end up costing you $90 each, which is still less than full OS upgrades have been in the past. And you'd have licenses left over if you needed them, of course.

balamw
Jun 18, 2011, 01:57 PM
Technically true, but you're being melodramatic. "Forking over the cash?" It's $5.

I think it also remains to be seen if buying the release version Lion will entitle you to a free copy of Xcode 4 or not. (This will be the case for FaceTime, $1 Mac App Store for Snow Leopard, but included with Lion.)

B

Winni
Jun 18, 2011, 02:24 PM
Crap how? (seriously asking, never used it)

Like, worse than a free LAMP setup?

I've never used OS X Server myself either, but it speaks volumes that Apple always ran Solaris on Sun hardware in their data centers instead of their own Xserves and OS X server. The also use Java for their server side software (not Objective-C). If Apple don't eat their own dog food, why should anybody else?

The free LAMP stack on the other hand is battle-tested and the de facto Internet server standard for a reason.

Winni
Jun 18, 2011, 02:30 PM
So you but the license for 20 and use 10. You are still not paying $129 or more each. If you clinic grows, you'll have extra seats. Total cost is $580. Compare this to 10 seats for Windows 7 (http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-windows_install/what-is-the-price-list-for-the-different-versions/628c55ae-d546-e011-9575-d8d385dcbb12).

If you want to make this comparison from a business perspective, prepare yourself to discover that Windows is well worth the money and that OS X still is not viable platform for most businesses. There's more to being a business platform than just being able to open Microsoft Office documents - that's just where it begins.

krzyglue
Jun 18, 2011, 02:47 PM
They can. Or, as enough people have said now, they can download once and create bootable media from what they've downloaded.

Sorry if this is a dumb question, I don't have access to the DP or anything.

How easy is this process? I mean *easy*, as in virtually idiot proof...


Yes, but even if you only utilized ten licenses, it would end up costing you $90 each, which is still less than full OS upgrades have been in the past. And you'd have licenses left over if you needed them, of course.

Hmm, still seems a bit wasteful.

Winni
Jun 18, 2011, 02:48 PM
I agree 100% Apple is following the lead of PC manufactures with regards to not shipping DVD's anymore with the system. It sucks for us "IT Guru's" but that is the way it is.

I hope though that I can make my own DVD in much the same way you can make your own "Recovery DVD" with many PC's.

Personally, I don't want a Recovery DVD or Recovery partition at all. I don't care if Apple still sells the OS on an installation medium, I only care if I can either burn a "real" OS installation DVD and/or a USB stick with the OS on it. And I want to be able to entirely wipe out the hard disk and install the system from scratch.

But my greatest concern with this whole thing is: I don't want to be locked into Apple's AppStore. But with this step, they effectively force all their customers into the AppStore - they're creating the same walled garden of OS X that they've created for iOS.

Imagine if Microsoft did the same thing with Windows. MS would drown in lawsuits, and they would lose every single one of them.

I never understood how people could love Apple and at the same time hate Microsoft, although both companies are basically using the same anti-competitive, monopolistic and evil business practices. The only difference is that Apple manages to seduce people into buying their poison or lures them with lies and false promises into their digital prision, while Microsoft uses a club to push their customers into staying with them.

In any case, Lion is a cleverly placed trap. You won't be able to use it without a valid AppStore accont. Since the AppStore still shows a significant lack of quality or professional software, Apple had to do something to make sure that ALL of their customers HAVE TO use the AppStore. So they pulled a typical Microsoft stunt and announced that henceforth OS X will only be sold through their AppStore.

I don't know about you guys, but I really don't like where this is going, and if you value your independence, I think it's time to jump ship. Macs are no longer luxury liners. Under their beautiful skin, they are becoming slave galleys.

Cougarcat
Jun 18, 2011, 02:56 PM
Why? Does the installation require an AppleID? Or is it only the DOWNLOAD that requires the AppleID?

Sorry if this is a dumb question, I don't have access to the DP or anything.

How easy is this process? I mean *easy*, as in virtually idiot proof.

It's not idiot proof. You have to right click on the installer and select show package contents to find the dmg. It's obviously not something intended by Apple.

krzyglue
Jun 18, 2011, 02:59 PM
I've never used OS X Server myself either, but it speaks volumes that Apple always ran Solaris on Sun hardware in their data centers instead of their own Xserves and OS X server. The also use Java for their server side software (not Objective-C). If Apple don't eat their own dog food, why should anybody else?

The free LAMP stack on the other hand is battle-tested and the de facto Internet server standard for a reason.

LAMP? LNMP is where it's at right now ;)

iBug2
Jun 18, 2011, 03:07 PM
And except for the fact that it isn't free anymore, not matter how much the cheerleaders try to justify it is "cheaper". A guy with a Mac can't just say "Hey, I want to try to write code for this thing using Apple's tools" anymore without forking over the cash.

Actually XCode 3.2 is still available so they can. Come July, they won't be able to, only if they want to develop on Lion. If people want to keep "hobby development" on Snow Leopard, they still can keep using 3.2 for free even after they buy Lion. And 3.2 produced software will run on Lion, just the tools won't run on Lion.

iBug2
Jun 18, 2011, 03:38 PM
It's not idiot proof. You have to right click on the installer and select show package contents to find the dmg. It's obviously not something intended by Apple.

Then again, if Apple really didn't want people to do something like that, they easily could have not put a bootable .dmg directly inside the installer and make it much more complicated. The only issue with installing like that is that for some reason, if you burn the .dmg onto a DVD, it takes forever for the DVD to boot, much longer than a regular Apple Install DVD.

maclaptop
Jun 18, 2011, 03:44 PM
This is a freaking disaster. How are enterprises suppose to develop images without the media. This is not good.

Enterprises shouldn't be using Macs. Apple's all about accommodating "the kids, old folks, and computer illiterate". It's why they are making "the experience" more iOS like.

Why do you think they criticize Android? You actually have something different with a little learning to do. Personal responsibly? Surely you jest!

Just ask the Apple Faithful, they'd throw a tantrum if they had to tell their grandparents that Macs are a wee bit harder to operate, than flipping the switch to turn on the lights. :rolleyes:

miografico
Jun 18, 2011, 04:28 PM
I've never used OS X Server myself either, but it speaks volumes that Apple always ran Solaris on Sun hardware in their data centers instead of their own Xserves and OS X server. The also use Java for their server side software (not Objective-C). If Apple don't eat their own dog food, why should anybody else?

The free LAMP stack on the other hand is battle-tested and the de facto Internet server standard for a reason.

Which for all intents and purposes is extremely sad. Because the graphical shell that sits upon Darwin and their version of Mach kernel is written in Objective-C and in my opinion is a much better graphical environment than Windows. The networking stack and their vfs are all BSD implementations. The operating system is itself is POSIX compliant.

It's far from the truth that the operating system as a whole would not be great as a server class operating system - it's that the current management structure could care less about bringing it up to snuff and using their own IP.

For web applications such as MobilMe Apple's visual framework is provides by SproutCore. If you are looking for a more Objective-C feel on the web you can go with the proven Objective-J (Cappuccino Framework). Apple in my opinion should buy the founding company 280 North and roll Objective-J into their own frameworks.

WickedStealthy
Jun 18, 2011, 04:32 PM
Yes... I have used multiple versions of Mac OS X Server (10.3 and 10.4 server), and abandoned it because they were so buggy.

Windows Server is extremely stable. Sorry you had issues, but at my work, we run a ton of them and don't experience the kind of downtime you're speaking of.

Windows Server stable ? Yes if you reboot the things from time to time. But I have not seen a windows server running uninterrupted for more then 1y. For some reason they seem to start degrading after a while.

Much better experience with some enterprise linux versions. Currently 3 machines running Oracle for almost 2 years without any intervention needed.

Or even one other. 3 very old sun machines (1998) which will be shut down within a month. One of them is already running for more then 5y without reboot. All three have still the same original disks and HW !!!! These things run almost continously full load and have never been shut down (cold) since operation.
Maybe we keep them running and see how long that they can survive :)