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MacRumors
Jun 17, 2011, 08:26 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/17/icloud-to-auto-resolve-sync-conflicts/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/06/syncconflict.jpg

MobileMe's sync conflict resolver. Via BusySync (http://www.busymac.com/busysync/userguide.html)
When it runs into conflicting data, Apple's upcoming iCloud service will automatically determine which is the correct one without bringing the user into it, according to (http://www.macstories.net/news/icloud-to-avoid-file-conflicts-with-versioning/) Daring Fireball's John Gruber. Speaking on The Talk Show with Dan Benjamin (http://5by5.tv/talkshow/47), Gruber lays out what he believes to be iCloud's course of action in dealing with sync conflicts: (via MacStories)
In iCloud, I believe you will never be presented with [a sync conflict] dialog, no matter how much has changed in one of the instances while it was "offline". The server-side iCloud, when there seemingly is a conflict, will make a decision and it will decide which one is the best (in Apple’s terms the "truth"). That is what Steve Jobs means when he says "The Truth is in the Cloud." iTunes will decide which one is right and that's it. iCloud will push that right one to any device that has this account that has a different version.

But, here's the trick – what happens if it's not the right one? On the server side, it will remember all of the other ones, almost like versioning. There will be some sort of interface like "go and look at your contacts." There will be some sort of way to say "show me previous versions and let me pick the one that is right". You pick it and push it back up into the cloud and tell it "that's the truth" and Apple will push it out.Currently, MobileMe pops up a dialog box (shown above) forcing users to resolve conflicts, before a sync can continue.

Apple hasn't officially revealed many details about exactly how its new services are going to work, iTunes Match nor the other various bits of iCloud. Gruber claims this isn't just a theory, that he knows is sure this is how iCloud will work. We'll know more when iCloud launches this fall.

Article Link: iCloud to Auto-Resolve Sync Conflicts (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/17/icloud-to-auto-resolve-sync-conflicts/)



res1233
Jun 17, 2011, 08:35 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Not such a bad idea. I'd decide it based on date modified if that's possible. Odds are the most recent change is the right one.

unlimitedx
Jun 17, 2011, 08:41 PM
great features

Bonch
Jun 17, 2011, 08:44 PM
As the Canadians say: "Aboot Time!"

Small White Car
Jun 17, 2011, 08:47 PM
Although they seem to be dabbling in guesswork I have to imagine that they're right. I can't imagine that Apple would come up with file-versioning in Lion and somehow ignore such features on the cloud side.

cmaier
Jun 17, 2011, 08:47 PM
Not quite true, if you read the iOS developer guidelines for using iCloud storage. (It may well be that all the built-in apps work this way, though).

adam1185
Jun 17, 2011, 08:48 PM
He also pointed out that iBooks page syncing is an example of iCloud syncing in action. If you have two devices and take them both offline and then flip to a different page on each device....which page is going to be the 'truth' once both devices go back online?

cmaier
Jun 17, 2011, 08:48 PM
He also pointed out that iBooks page syncing is an example of iCloud syncing in action. If you have two devices and take them both offline and then flip to a different page on each device....which page is going to be the 'truth' once both devices go back online?

Whichever one was changed last in time? Whichever one is the highest page number? Either choice would make sense.

Doctor Q
Jun 17, 2011, 08:50 PM
How will I know that one of my syncs didn't result in "the truth" so I need to check my versioning?

Skika
Jun 17, 2011, 08:53 PM
iCloud FTW!!!

caspersoong
Jun 17, 2011, 08:54 PM
I wonder how it will decide. I have too many services using the same calendar so I hope iOS 5 will not mess it up.

OllyW
Jun 17, 2011, 08:55 PM
How will I know that one of my syncs didn't result in "the truth" so I need to check my versioning?

When you turn up for an appointment a day too late?

HelveticaNeue
Jun 17, 2011, 08:59 PM
I think this is fantastic. I hate seeing those MobileMe conflict windows. It makes me doubt myself every time.

Now if only we could somehow get versions or Time Machine for iPad to restore former documents.

Vegasman
Jun 17, 2011, 09:01 PM
When you turn up for an appointment a day too late?

Yup! Works like the iPhone alarm feature during a daylight savings time change. ;)

MrSmith
Jun 17, 2011, 09:10 PM
Thank the Lord. That window was the hardest part of my life.

charlituna
Jun 17, 2011, 09:15 PM
Not such a bad idea. I'd decide it based on date modified if that's possible. Odds are the most recent change is the right one.

That is most likely exactly what is going to happen and Gruber is partially blowing smoke

kingsmuse
Jun 17, 2011, 09:25 PM
I`m not digging this.

iCloud canot possibly know how to mesh any conflicts in my syncing better than I do.

In fact the more I read about Lion and iCloud the more I want to hang onto Snow Leopard.

nagromme
Jun 17, 2011, 09:46 PM
Cooljust like iOS spell-checking: most of the time you DO want the auto-correction, so thats a sensible default. But you can then revert easily if it turns out to be wrong.

tigress666
Jun 17, 2011, 10:03 PM
I`m not digging this.

iCloud canot possibly know how to mesh any conflicts in my syncing better than I do.

In fact the more I read about Lion and iCloud the more I want to hang onto Snow Leopard.

It sounds like you still get the option to choose. Except now it will finish the rest of the synch and then ask you which to keep so you don't have to answer right away before the synch will finish so you can feel a little freer to really look and decide.

JimAtLaw
Jun 17, 2011, 10:41 PM
How will I know that one of my syncs didn't result in "the truth" so I need to check my versioning?

Exactly. I hope to g-d they allow you to set it up to ask you every time rather than guessing, however intelligent they think their algorithm is...

pavinder
Jun 18, 2011, 12:13 AM
It sounds like you still get the option to choose. Except now it will finish the rest of the synch and then ask you which to keep so you don't have to answer right away before the synch will finish so you can feel a little freer to really look and decide.

Exactly this point.

The old problem was simply that the entire sync was put on hold until decisions were made.

As long as you have a way to check what conflicts were encountered (a simple list of flagged items) and choose which version to use, this looks like a perfect solution to me.

ARobinson
Jun 18, 2011, 01:11 AM
The way they laid out the post is very confusing. If this is how iCloud will work, the path of correction will be very simple. The cloud won't tell the user he is wrong.

Gruber said this: "It will act like a black box. Most cases it will go by the most recently implemented change it will be undefined. The key is that if there is a conflict, they will remember the different conflicting versions. If it picks the wrong truth it will be able to go back and get the right one. Thats what I mean when I say no more merging or conflicts. iCloud will make its best guess at merging & conflicts other than having you pick it."

The cloud will make the best educated guess that you will ultimately have control over. Only if, of course, Gruber's theories prove factual.

wonderspark
Jun 18, 2011, 01:36 AM
If my secretary adds an appointment to my calendar (remotely via the office) after I've already booked something myself, it's likely her newer entry will not be "the truth" at all, and my prior appointment will be written over. I could then miss my proper appointment because I didn't "verify" it prior, and that would suck.

It would need to be an option, or I'd have to fire people with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my appointments. And they will KNOW my name is The...

...sorry, got carried away there.

richard.mac
Jun 18, 2011, 01:41 AM
if iCloud automatically picks the conflict that has more details and a more recent modified date then i have no problem with this. also good that it will have a manual conflict selector.

JackieTreehorn
Jun 18, 2011, 01:52 AM
Hopefully this will also fix the 'new activity' issue where a new appointment named 'new activity' gets pushed to MobileMe without ever being renamed. I have ended up with numerous 'new activity' in my calendars with only one Mac holding the correct appointment (i.e. tennis with Leon).

Most, most annoying.

mave1969
Jun 18, 2011, 02:14 AM
If my secretary adds an appointment to my calendar (remotely via the office) after I've already booked something myself, it's likely her newer entry will not be "the truth" at all, and my prior appointment will be written over. I could then miss my proper appointment because I didn't "verify" it prior, and that would suck.
...sorry, got carried away there.

The bit you're missing is that with iCloud, when you book something yourself it automatically gets pushed to the calendar your secretary sees, so she never adds a conflicting appointment in the first place. The pervasive concurrency of data is going to stop a lot of these conflicts happening, so the process of resolving them is required less often, and eventually becomes unnecessary.

People worrying about whether iCloud can possibly know which is "the truth" are not seeing the wider aim of Apple, which is to eliminate the possibility of conflicts happening at all.

wonderspark
Jun 18, 2011, 02:18 AM
The bit you're missing is that with iCloud, when you book something yourself it automatically gets pushed to the calendar your secretary sees, so she never adds a conflicting appointment in the first place. The pervasive concurrency of data is going to stop a lot of these conflicts happening in the first place, so the process of resolving them is required less often, and eventually becomes unnecessary.
Ah, I did miss that. That does make sense, then. I get to be Maximus The Merciful after all.

tigress666
Jun 18, 2011, 03:07 AM
If my secretary adds an appointment to my calendar (remotely via the office) after I've already booked something myself, it's likely her newer entry will not be "the truth" at all, and my prior appointment will be written over. I could then miss my proper appointment because I didn't "verify" it prior, and that would suck.

It would need to be an option, or I'd have to fire people with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my appointments. And they will KNOW my name is The...

...sorry, got carried away there.

Alright I +1'ed your post just cause of amusing use of reference *grin*.

But, seriously considering your point, I am guessing it will tell you there were conflicts, just after it finishes or maybe even during but it finishes while you consider (rather than before and waiting for your input before it finishes synching)? At least I'd hope it would mention there were conflicts and not just leave it up to you to constantly scan the schedule.

baryon
Jun 18, 2011, 03:16 AM
Don't know why this was every a problem: The right event is the one that was most recently created. It's that simple!

ARobinson
Jun 18, 2011, 03:18 AM
I agree. Apple isn't stupid...usually. Lol. And I don't believe anything John Gruber says, but Mac Rumors decided to quote him. At first I thought this was an idiotic theory till I read from his post directly. Not the first time MacRumors is confusing people by leaving out half the story.

ssdeg7
Jun 18, 2011, 03:23 AM
iCloud still has some problems that I think Apple isn't going to solve, like sometimes it duplicates all of my events, that's really annoying!

Azathoth
Jun 18, 2011, 03:35 AM
People worrying about whether iCloud can possibly know which is "the truth" are not seeing the wider aim of Apple, which is to eliminate the possibility of conflicts happening at all.

Dave Bowman: Add a lunch meeting on Weds to iCal.
iPad: I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Dave Bowman: What's the problem?
iPad: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.

Azathoth
Jun 18, 2011, 03:40 AM
The bit you're missing is that with iCloud, when you book something yourself it automatically gets pushed to the calendar your secretary sees, so she never adds a conflicting appointment in the first place. The pervasive concurrency of data is going to stop a lot of these conflicts happening, so the process of resolving them is required less often, and eventually becomes unnecessary.

People worrying about whether iCloud can possibly know which is "the truth" are not seeing the wider aim of Apple, which is to eliminate the possibility of conflicts happening at all.

The scenario is trivial when there is a constant data connection due to the relatively short sync delay compared to the long time for a person to add an appt.

The problem occurs when one or more of the units is not able to sync - that's when conflicts can occur and in this case a simple "last edit date" would not suffice. The boss wants to make sure that the appts they schedule override those made by their sec. even if the sec has performed an edit at a later time than the boss.

atopos
Jun 18, 2011, 03:44 AM
A propos...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEEwmpScMp4&feature=youtu.be

MattInOz
Jun 18, 2011, 04:48 AM
How will I know that one of my syncs didn't result in "the truth" so I need to check my versioning?

Seeing the developer of the app that put your info in the cloud is always responsible for presenting your data then its their job to tell you about the conflict. So I'd guess apple does what it can with what the developer tells them about the info. Creates versions out of the rest which the developer needs to either deal with. Hopefully the last resort is bugging the user.

Sora
Jun 18, 2011, 05:06 AM
I will have to see this work in real time to make my judgement. Sounds like it can be tricked to push the incorrect info to all devices.

Baumi
Jun 18, 2011, 05:07 AM
I'm not going to put too much faith into this.

To me, Jon Gruber is the Apple equivalent off all the political talk-radio pundits out there: No matter the facts of any particular story, he'll always try to spin them to make it seem like Apple is in the right, knows best for you and has the best products on the planet. (Kind of stuck in the defensive mode of the mid-1990s when Apple was down and almost out in spite of good products.)

So when he talks about any great new Apple product, I'll take it with more than one grain of salt.

econgeek
Jun 18, 2011, 05:36 AM
Gruber is full of it. He doesn't even understand enough computer science to know WTF he is talking about.

You can use vector clocks to determine which is the "right" one, when you've got devices that are reguarly syncing. But when two devices go offline, and both change the same information, and then come online, you either have the "first one to connect wins" or the "last one to connect wins" because the vector clocks will show both changed while offline from the past common one.

iCloud does not provide any mechanism for basic support of vector clocks right now, this is all left up to the developer.

ARN, I know you have a crush on Gruber, but you have to start recognizing that he's just pulling stuff out of his ass most of the time.

It is pathetic how people fall for this from him time and again.... and of course, nobody goes back and notices when he gets it wrong.

econgeek
Jun 18, 2011, 05:38 AM
I'm not going to put too much faith into this.

To me, Jon Gruber is the Apple equivalent off all the political talk-radio pundits out there: No matter the facts of any particular story, he'll always try to spin them to make it seem like Apple is in the right, knows best for you and has the best products on the planet. (Kind of stuck in the defensive mode of the mid-1990s when Apple was down and almost out in spite of good products.)

So when he talks about any great new Apple product, I'll take it with more than one grain of salt.

You're right. Gruber is the Michael Savage of the Apple scene. He's equally full of junk when it comes to politics as well, where he's the Michael Savage of the left.

haravikk
Jun 18, 2011, 06:19 AM
I think that erring towards the most recent change is by far the simplest, and most reliable way to do this, as any other criteria will usually be unreliable. For example; with iBooks, using the highest page might not be right as a user might flick back to re-read a chapter, for example.

I'm hoping for some kind of GUI support though, so that if you have a calendar appointment (for example) that appears to have a conflict, then a badge will display the number of conflicting versions, so if you've got the wrong one you can click to make sure you get the right one from the right source; i.e - if you remember that you changed the appointment on your iPhone after receiving a call, but then when you got to your offline computer you tried to update it and got the details wrong, then you can switch back to the iPhone's version.

mave1969
Jun 18, 2011, 07:21 AM
iCloud canot possibly know how to mesh any conflicts in my syncing better than I do.

In fact the more I read about Lion and iCloud the more I want to hang onto Snow Leopard.

I suggest you read a bit more. Apple isn't claiming that iCloud will know better than you. The aim is for changes to your data to be pushed to your devices instantly so that the conflicts don't occur in the first place.

If they do occur, then you will be able to review the changes and select the correct version.

tigres
Jun 18, 2011, 07:29 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8C148 Safari/6533.18.5)

I like it. Being a heavy user of MM, this sync conflict is a PITA, especially when you use a lapytop, home, and work machine. They are always overdoing each other.

supmango
Jun 18, 2011, 07:35 AM
How will I know that one of my syncs didn't result in "the truth" so I need to check my versioning?

I always default to the mobile me cloud anyway, because most of the time it is correct (seriously close to 99% of the time). It is not worth my time to go through every conflict and make sure it is syncing the correct one. Apple is just doing by default what I do anyway.

supmango
Jun 18, 2011, 07:41 AM
I`m not digging this.

iCloud canot possibly know how to mesh any conflicts in my syncing better than I do.

In fact the more I read about Lion and iCloud the more I want to hang onto Snow Leopard.

I'd suggest you wait to adopt it and see what happens. I will wait at least 6 months before I adopt Lion on most of my machines, except maybe one that I use at home. There will be bugs to work out, there always are when you introduce "new" features. But you should realize that *most* of these features aren't all that new (iOS), they are just being applied in new places (Lion). So I suspect any bugs that do arise will be squashed pretty quickly.

pubwvj
Jun 18, 2011, 07:49 AM
It is truly unfortunate that Apple's software engineers aren't smart enough and that Apple doesn't have enough money or resources to make features like iCloud and folders available on older iOS machines and older Macs. If they did they would dramatically increase their market for these new updates and services. I, and a lot of other people, are not going to throw away our older hardware just to get these features. Apple is promoting waste. Such a shame. They could make money by selling me Lion that runs on all older Macs and newer iOS on older iDevices. Sure, it would not have some features because the hardware literally can't support them but there are a lot of features they're offering in the new OS that could be supported on the old hardware with ease. That would mean more money every year for Apple as long time users pay for the upgraded OSs.

supmango
Jun 18, 2011, 07:55 AM
Don't know why this was every a problem: The right event is the one that was most recently created. It's that simple!

Exactly. The conflict resolution screen only appears when it is not certain that it can determine what time you made the change in one or more places, thus which one occurred most recently. Why can't it make this determination? I don't have a clue except for possibly delays in syncing. But it sounds like Apple is pretty confident that they have the cloud notification process working near 100% efficiently, so it should not be an issue for most people going forward. We will see. If not, this new process could pose an issue.

kalsta
Jun 18, 2011, 08:59 AM
People can rubbish the source of this information, but it makes sense to me. Sure, there are going to be rare occasions where two users make conflicting changes while both offline — but 99% of the time, well-written software should be able to work out what's what, rather than present you with a confirmation message every time. It's the Apple way not to get in the user's way. If you enjoy having to babysit your computer as it constantly asks for confirmations, try Windows instead.

if iCloud automatically picks the conflict that has more details and a more recent modified date then i have no problem with this.

More details? No. Often you want to delete information. We were running a third-party desktop app for a while which supposedly used Apple's sync services (because I couldn't see the sense in paying for MobileMe) and one of the most annoying things was when you deleted a contact's old email address or something, only to have it pop back when you synced up with others again. Pretty soon you end up with a friend's Address Book entry listing every bloody phone number and email address they ever owned, and you're constantly having to work out which is the most recent one.

radiogoober
Jun 18, 2011, 09:06 AM
It is truly unfortunate that Apple's software engineers aren't smart enough and that Apple doesn't have enough money or resources to make features like iCloud and folders available on older iOS machines and older Macs. If they did they would dramatically increase their market for these new updates and services. I, and a lot of other people, are not going to throw away our older hardware just to get these features. Apple is promoting waste. Such a shame. They could make money by selling me Lion that runs on all older Macs and newer iOS on older iDevices. Sure, it would not have some features because the hardware literally can't support them but there are a lot of features they're offering in the new OS that could be supported on the old hardware with ease. That would mean more money every year for Apple as long time users pay for the upgraded OSs.

You don't get it. Part of what makes an OS (Windows, Apple, *nix, whatever) suck is having to support legacy hardware. It's a bold move to release an OS and say "Sorry, some old software and hardware will no longer work." But that's how the OS improves and advances. You can't get great new features if you're trying to have infinite backwards compatibility. You gotta pay to play. Sorry if you're too poor to buy new hardware, but you can't expect to use your decade old hardware AND get all the new bells and whistles. iCloud is "free", but you have to at least be using hardware that supports it.

Pretty lame of you to insult Apple (too poor, not smart enough) simply because you don't understand technology progression.

Compile 'em all
Jun 18, 2011, 09:21 AM
I`m not digging this.

iCloud canot possibly know how to mesh any conflicts in my syncing better than I do.

In fact the more I read about Lion and iCloud the more I want to hang onto Snow Leopard.

You sound like an old fart.

NinjaHERO
Jun 18, 2011, 09:22 AM
I calender has never synced right between my phone and my computer. So anything that helps that is appreciated.

orfeas0
Jun 18, 2011, 09:40 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Not such a bad idea. I'd decide it based on date modified if that's possible. Odds are the most recent change is the right one.

so if you make a new calendar event for a day you already have something to do but forgot it, it will erase the old one and you won't even know.

Automatic deletion of your contacts/calendar/anything is plain stupid, apple. At least a notice should be given when it happens!

yg17
Jun 18, 2011, 09:48 AM
I agree. Apple isn't stupid...usually. Lol. And I don't believe anything John Gruber says, but Mac Rumors decided to quote him. At first I thought this was an idiotic theory till I read from his post directly. Not the first time MacRumors is confusing people by leaving out half the story.

Heh, see my signature. John Gruber is a joke. He's some Apple fanatic who started a blog and had the audacity to charge people for it, and somehow became successful. He just pulls this stuff out of his ass, I'm not sure why anyone takes him seriously.

pmz
Jun 18, 2011, 09:48 AM
People seem to forget that mobile me is still working and pushing calanders all day long. This kind of schedule conflict entry simply doesn't happen to me because I would never schedule myself for two things at once.

The much bigger issue is when you quickly change a large amount of data (such as deleting a calander, group of contacts, several bookmarks or notes) the same conflict window appears on the Mac forcing you to confirm those changes before syncing can continue.

Is Apple going to address that too?

justinfreid
Jun 18, 2011, 10:03 AM
Versioning for contacts and calendar would be a great feature, even if it only goes back a few months.

Fields recently updated by sync such as name and address should be highlighted and a tap and hold could invoke a display of the versions. As long as the versions can be viewed and updated from any device, even the small-screened iPhone, I'd say that iCloud can handle the truth.

Casiotone
Jun 18, 2011, 11:22 AM
Heh, see my signature. John Gruber is a joke. He's some Apple fanatic who started a blog and had the audacity to charge people for it, and somehow became successful. He just pulls this stuff out of his ass, I'm not sure why anyone takes him seriously.

Charge people for it? It's hard to take YOU seriously with a false statement like that.

Aside from mentioning sponsors once in a while (in plain text), there are no ads on his blog and the content is free to access. His RSS feed contains the whole posts instead of truncated versions most sites offer.

As for your signature, I don't remember him saying/writing that having access to a list of notification from anywhere in the OS was a bad thing.

I do remember him saying something about the little notification icons accumulating in the status bar in Android to be annoying, and guess what, these are not in the iOS 5 implementation.

Apple didn't have much choice when it came to add the trigger mechanism to access the notification center. Tell me, what should Apple have used as a trigger? Triple click the home button? Pinch with three finger? Let me guess, you won't answer this one and instead spend the whole post bashing me for defending Gruber on this.

I do cringe sometimes about some of the things Gruber says and write, but I think that for the most part he gets what the real motivation behind some of the controversial decisions Apple makes while many others just shout "Evil! Evil!" without even trying to understand why Apple does what it does.

diamond.g
Jun 18, 2011, 11:23 AM
People seem to forget that mobile me is still working and pushing calanders all day long. This kind of schedule conflict entry simply doesn't happen to me because I would never schedule myself for two things at once.

The much bigger issue is when you quickly change a large amount of data (such as deleting a calander, group of contacts, several bookmarks or notes) the same conflict window appears on the Mac forcing you to confirm those changes before syncing can continue.

Is Apple going to address that too?

You can actually disable that screen, or at least set the threshold very high. I am surprised most people don't know that.

QuarterSwede
Jun 18, 2011, 11:26 AM
Charge people for it? It's hard to take YOU seriously with a false statement like that.

Aside from mentioning sponsors once in a while (in plain text), there are no ads on his blog and the content is free to access. His RSS feed contains the whole posts instead of truncated versions most sites offer.

As for your signature, I don't remember him saying/writing that having access to a list of notification from anywhere in the OS was a bad thing.

I do remember him saying something about the little notification icons accumulating in the status bar in Android to be annoying, and guess what, these are not in the iOS 5 implementation.

Apple didn't have much choice when it came to add the trigger mechanism to access the notification center. Tell me, what should Apple have used as a trigger? Triple click the home button? Pinch with three finger? Let me guess, you won't answer this one and instead spend the whole post bashing me for defending Gruber on this.

I do cringe sometimes about some of the things Gruber says and write, but I think that for the most part he gets what the real motivation behind some of the controversial decisions Apple makes while many others just shout "Evil! Evil!" without even trying to understand why Apple does what it does.
I read Gruber every once in a while and have heard him multiple times on TWiT and he's usually very level headed and a lot of times one of the only voices of reason. I would definitely not call him an Apple fanatic.

radiogoober
Jun 18, 2011, 12:50 PM
Charge people for it? It's hard to take YOU seriously with a false statement like that.

Aside from mentioning sponsors once in a while (in plain text), there are no ads on his blog and the content is free to access. His RSS feed contains the whole posts instead of truncated versions most sites offer.

As for your signature, I don't remember him saying/writing that having access to a list of notification from anywhere in the OS was a bad thing.

I do remember him saying something about the little notification icons accumulating in the status bar in Android to be annoying, and guess what, these are not in the iOS 5 implementation.

Apple didn't have much choice when it came to add the trigger mechanism to access the notification center. Tell me, what should Apple have used as a trigger? Triple click the home button? Pinch with three finger? Let me guess, you won't answer this one and instead spend the whole post bashing me for defending Gruber on this.

I do cringe sometimes about some of the things Gruber says and write, but I think that for the most part he gets what the real motivation behind some of the controversial decisions Apple makes while many others just shout "Evil! Evil!" without even trying to understand why Apple does what it does.

I'm sure the guy you're writing to will never reply. Obviously Gruber was talking about different parts of Android's notifications UI. As far as cringing from Gruber's blog, I just wish he would leave out his political views. I enjoy his opinions on Apple, but I think he has the worst political opinions/affiliations in the world. :)

kiljoy616
Jun 18, 2011, 01:03 PM
This stuff more and more makes me not just want to use the iCloud but its mouth watering cool. Feel like I am some almost Pre Star Trek world. :cool:

kiljoy616
Jun 18, 2011, 01:04 PM
so if you make a new calendar event for a day you already have something to do but forgot it, it will erase the old one and you won't even know.

Automatic deletion of your contacts/calendar/anything is plain stupid, apple. At least a notice should be given when it happens!

Don't use it the rest of us will.

macnisse
Jun 18, 2011, 01:38 PM
That is what Steve Jobs means when he says "The Truth is in the Cloud." iTunes will decide which one is right and that's it. iCloud will push that right one to any device that has this account that has a different version.

--> Wow, that quote sure has a religious touch to it... and ties in remarkably well with a recent note about Apple-followers here:

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/gadgets/apple-stimulates-brains-religious-responses-claims-bbc-50003807/

I will follow, the truth and nothing but the truth... should be good provided a revert option :D

iFanaddic
Jun 18, 2011, 03:36 PM
iCloud still has some problems that I think Apple isn't going to solve, like sometimes it duplicates all of my events, that's really annoying!

Thats why!!! Thank you so much! lol not kidding here you're a life saver, my events were all duplicated and only half my contacts were synced, disabled iCloud everything is good now, I was blaming the last dev update.

maclaptop
Jun 18, 2011, 03:59 PM
When you turn up for an appointment a day too late?

That's impossible, Apple's perfect remember ha..ha...ha...... :eek:

MattInOz
Jun 18, 2011, 06:36 PM
so if you make a new calendar event for a day you already have something to do but forgot it, it will erase the old one and you won't even know.

Automatic deletion of your contacts/calendar/anything is plain stupid, apple. At least a notice should be given when it happens!

Nothing gets deleted it gets versioned. So you can go back and get the removed part. As everything is still in a version not deleted the system can be more aggressive about stripping doulbe ups.

Calendars are a really bad example to me. A doulbe up there requires the truth to be created by the user considering the options then dealing with fall out.

For most others situations the versions will work to our advantage. This is where developer need to play their part in the chain. Deciding which way to deal.

SandynJosh
Jun 18, 2011, 11:54 PM
How will I know that one of my syncs didn't result in "the truth" so I need to check my versioning?

You ask that question like you don't trust the turtle-necked one to know what's the truth for you? Have faith, young grasshopper.

LoganT
Jun 19, 2011, 12:11 AM
I read Gruber every once in a while and have heard him multiple times on TWiT and he's usually very level headed and a lot of times one of the only voices of reason. I would definitely not call him an Apple fanatic.

People mistake facts as being biased.

LoganT
Jun 19, 2011, 12:16 AM
Everyone should listen to The Talk Show #46

http://audio.5by5.tv/broadcasts/talkshow/2011/talkshow-046.mp3

John Gruber has some really interesting thoughts on where Apple is headed.

arn
Jun 19, 2011, 12:29 AM
Gruber is full of it. He doesn't even understand enough computer science to know WTF he is talking about.

ARN, I know you have a crush on Gruber, but you have to start recognizing that he's just pulling stuff out of his ass most of the time.

It is pathetic how people fall for this from him time and again.... and of course, nobody goes back and notices when he gets it wrong.

Ok, let's look back then at what Gruber said and you said in 2010.

Gruber's iPhone 4 rumors (http://www.macrumors.com/2010/03/29/next-iphone-double-resolution-display-front-camera-multi-tasking/)
- A4-family CPU system-on-a-chip
- 960x640 double-resolution display
- second front facing camera
- 3rd party multitasking in iPhone 4


And where you replied with the same "Gruber is always wrong" rant: http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=9523217&postcount=36

econgeek wrote in March, 2010:
-- Front facing camera. A perennial feature request from the mac rumor mongers that does not make much real sense.

When the new [iPhone 4] doesn't have a front facing camera, will you strike gruber from your reliable rumors list? Or will he get to slide because he was "obviously being sarcastic"?


So, let me ask you this time. If the auto-resolve sync conflicts thing turns out to be true will you add gruber to your reliable rumors list, or are you just going to keep ranting about us publishing his rumors?

arn

cmaier
Jun 19, 2011, 12:37 AM
Ok, let's look back then at what Gruber said and you said in 2010.

Gruber's iPhone 4 rumors (http://www.macrumors.com/2010/03/29/next-iphone-double-resolution-display-front-camera-multi-tasking/), where you posted the same "Gruber is always wrong" rant: http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=9523217&postcount=36



So, let me ask you this time. If the auto-resolve sync conflicts thing turns out to be true will you add gruber to your reliable rumors list, or are you just going to keep ranting about us publishing his rumors?

arn

Anyone with a developer account can see he's a little bit off this time:

http://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/ios/#releasenotes/General/WhatsNewIniPhoneOS/Articles/iOS5.html

See "Handling File-Version Conflicts," particularly the sentence starting "However, if..." followed by "For example,"

arn
Jun 19, 2011, 12:42 AM
Anyone with a developer account can see he's a little bit off this time:

http://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/ios/#releasenotes/General/WhatsNewIniPhoneOS/Articles/iOS5.html

See "Handling File-Version Conflicts," particularly the sentence starting "However, if..." followed by "For example,"

I don't have dev access, I presume whatever is written for 3rd party developers?

arn

cmaier
Jun 19, 2011, 12:50 AM
I don't have dev access, I presume whatever is written for 3rd party developers?

arn

Yep.

It may be that all the built-in apps behave like gruber says - that would fit within the framework explained therein. I think Gruber was describing the idealized scenario contemplated in the document I refer to, but ignoring the "but, that might not work, so do this..." scenario also described there. I'd bet even the built-in apps, under the right scenarios, will be forced to behave in the way this document describes.

soco
Jun 19, 2011, 01:58 AM
arn - 1

Me going all day without getting a raging erection from people getting told what's what on MacRumors - 0

Just sayin'

orfeas0
Jun 19, 2011, 07:26 AM
Nothing gets deleted it gets versioned. So you can go back and get the removed part. As everything is still in a version not deleted the system can be more aggressive about stripping doulbe ups.

Calendars are a really bad example to me. A doulbe up there requires the truth to be created by the user considering the options then dealing with fall out.

For most others situations the versions will work to our advantage. This is where developer need to play their part in the chain. Deciding which way to deal.

that could work. but are you sure that's the way it works? apple doesn't hesitate to delete your stuff just like that. An example is the iTunes sync.
I like the way apple syncs our media etc via itunes, but a little more freedom would be nice... For example to copy stuff from iphone to the pc, not just from the pc to the iphone...

JabbaII
Jun 19, 2011, 08:36 AM
Not sure why this is a big deal for Apple.

My blackberry (outlook server) sync worked fine.

outlook has delegates, sharing etc. plus in a work environment where literally 100s of people will be making appointments with you in various timezones (whilst you travel). Never a conflict that I need to resolve :)

This is one instance that it should "just work".

I don't know how people put up with mobile me.

SandynJosh
Jun 19, 2011, 01:43 PM
that could work. but are you sure that's the way it works? apple doesn't hesitate to delete your stuff just like that. An example is the iTunes sync.
I like the way apple syncs our media etc via itunes, but a little more freedom would be nice... For example to copy stuff from iphone to the pc, not just from the pc to the iphone...

Here's another example of permanent deletion: I have several email accounts that Apple's "Mail" pulls into my mailbox. I told Mail to stop bringing email in from one of the accounts. ::POOF:: All of the previous email I sent and received from the account was removed from my mailboxes...totally cleaned out and not retrievable. Also, not even a warning that my intended action would cause this secondary action.

Xtremehkr
Jun 19, 2011, 02:27 PM
I actually like that feature, as I'm prone to change information on the particular device that I'm using. My iMac is designated as being the main computer but contact and calendar information is most often changed on my mobile devices.

I like that I can make sure the information changed is information that I want changed.

Though it would be really nice if Apple were able to reliably automate that process.

winston1236
Jun 20, 2011, 10:54 AM
it would be awesome if you could set one device as the standard for the rest, such as my mobile is always correct and set others to it

arkitect
Jun 20, 2011, 10:57 AM
it would be awesome if you could set one device as the standard for the rest, such as my mobile is always correct and set others to it

How could that be a good idea? :confused:
I use my Macs and iPad and iPhone to change and add events and contacts etc.

I wouldn't want one device overriding the others with the "wrong" info.

ObsidianIce
Jun 20, 2011, 12:36 PM
I'm very curious on how this will work when combining info. I imagine it will mesh the info and then when seeing conflicts use the newest one?

cmaier
Jun 20, 2011, 12:37 PM
I'm very curious on how this will work when combining info. I imagine it will mesh the info and then when seeing conflicts use the newest one?

Each app decides on its own how to merge information, and whether to ask for guidance. The built-in apps undoubtedly use different formulas depending on the nature of the data they handle.

steadysignal
Jun 20, 2011, 02:28 PM
Although they seem to be dabbling in guesswork I have to imagine that they're right. I can't imagine that Apple would come up with file-versioning in Lion and somehow ignore such features on the cloud side.


this is going to be rich...

Doctor Q
Jun 22, 2011, 11:25 PM
I actually like that feature, as I'm prone to change information on the particular device that I'm using. My iMac is designated as being the main computer but contact and calendar information is most often changed on my mobile devices.

I like that I can make sure the information changed is information that I want changed.

Though it would be really nice if Apple were able to reliably automate that process.
I don't understand why it doesn't work now. The software keeps a sync history file (mentioned in this article (http://support.apple.com/kb/TS1627)) that tracks changes, but my Address Book and MobileMe Contacts and iPhone Contacts get out of sync. I can't designate one as the master, as the troubleshooting instructions tell me, because I've changed them all and I don't remember which contacts I've changed in what way. The software is supposed to be in charge of that!

KingCrimson
Jun 22, 2011, 11:29 PM
I pray for those relying on "auto-resolve" for their calendar. When someone misses a job interview because of their iCloud reliance, that will give me a good laugh.

Doctor Q
Jun 23, 2011, 12:07 AM
I pray for those relying on "auto-resolve" for their calendar. When someone misses a job interview because of their iCloud reliance, that will give me a good laugh.
We almost missed an appointment because we didn't realize the iPad calendar wasn't changed back to our home time zone after a trip. Whoops!