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MacRumors
Jun 19, 2011, 12:28 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/19/new-mac-pros-and-mac-minis-launching-august/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/06/august.jpg


CNet's Brian Tong has revealed on Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/brian_tong/status/82492887341867009) that "all new" next generation Mac Pros and Mac minis will arrive in late July or early August.EXCLUSIVE: My sources tell me ALL NEW Next-Gen Mac Pros and Mac Minis will launch either end of July first week of August.Tong previously accurately predicted (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/03/22/potential-imac-update-to-sandy-bridge-and-thunderbolt-in-4-6-weeks/) the arrival of new iMacs in the "end of April or 1st week of May". The iMacs did arrive in the 1st week of May as predicted. Tong indicates his source for the Mac Pro and Mac Mini updates are the same as for the iMac updates.

No details are provided on the specs of the machines besides the expected incorporation of Thunderbolt and Sandy Bridge CPUs.

Article Link: New Mac Pros and Mac Minis Launching August (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/19/new-mac-pros-and-mac-minis-launching-august/)



ugru
Jun 19, 2011, 12:31 PM
New MacPro?

This sounds wierd....

*LTD*
Jun 19, 2011, 12:31 PM
This is impossible. Not happening.

Apple's only supposed to care about "iToys" and nothing else. They don't care about Macs anymore.

MagicBoy
Jun 19, 2011, 12:31 PM
Nicely timed to ship with Lion perhaps? ;)

GoldMan
Jun 19, 2011, 12:32 PM
Can i plug my own screen and etc. to the mac mini?

MagicBoy
Jun 19, 2011, 12:33 PM
Can i plug my own screen and etc. to the mac mini?

Yep. They've always been BYODKM (Bring you own display, keyboard and Mouse).

DTphonehome
Jun 19, 2011, 12:33 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Can i plug my own screen and etc. to the mac mini?

How else would you see what you're doing?

kalsta
Jun 19, 2011, 12:34 PM
Can i plug my own screen and etc. to the mac mini?

That all depends on what kind of etc you own, and whether it has the right connectors.

Yep. They've always been BYODKM (Bring you own display, keyboard and Mouse).

There's even an acronym for that now? Wow.

DTphonehome
Jun 19, 2011, 12:34 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

I bet the Mac Pro will be redesigned into a rack-mountable case. It's been a looooong time since a major redesign.

Umbongo
Jun 19, 2011, 12:39 PM
It should be noted that the LGA 2011 processors that the Mac Pros will use aren't scheduled for release until Q4, so Apple getting them 2 months early seems unlikely.

MagicBoy
Jun 19, 2011, 12:39 PM
There's even an acronym for that now? Wow.

I think Apple coined it with the original Mac mini back when.

labaom
Jun 19, 2011, 12:39 PM
What about the regular Macbooks?

d4rkc4sm
Jun 19, 2011, 12:40 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

I bet the Mac Pro will be redesigned into a rack-mountable case. It's been a looooong time since a major redesign.

nearly 8 years

portishead
Jun 19, 2011, 12:40 PM
Remove the optical drive bay, remove a couple PCIe slots, add a few Thunderbolt ports, add a couple 2.5" drive bays, and make everything SATA3. Shrink the size by half.

DannyBlizz
Jun 19, 2011, 12:41 PM
Is it just me, or Apple doesn't seem to care about the MacBooks anymore. Those Machines are stock with a Core Dual Processor. I like the MacBooks a lot, due to the way it looks, but like I said, seems like Apple doesn't care about them anymore!

Umbongo
Jun 19, 2011, 12:41 PM
Remove the optical drive bay, remove a couple PCIe slots, add a few Thunderbolt ports, add a couple 2.5" drive bays, and make everything SATA3. Shrink the size by half.

Why?

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 12:41 PM
All-new next-gen Mac Pros? If by that, they mean a Mac Pro with a Thunderbolt connector and no Ivy Bridge, then yes. (i.e. the same Mac Pro, with a T-bolt)

No Ivy Bridge, no BD, no USB3... but with a Magic Trackpad option!

Apple releases Mac Pro upgrades in 18-20 month intervals these days. IT and workstations is dead to them.

After all their new OS supports that all-important IT and workstations feature: improved gestures, app store and launchpad. :rolleyes:

Noctilux.95
Jun 19, 2011, 12:41 PM
I learned that an iMac 27 with i7 processor is NOT a replacement for Mac Pro. I'm looking forward to a faster Mac Pro with Thunderbolt.
My 2009 Mac Pro will go on sale as soon as the new models become available.

lvlarkkoenen
Jun 19, 2011, 12:42 PM
So does this mean that Mini's and Pro's are released later than Lion, or that Lion will launch later than expected? (although, ofcourse, late july is still an option) Will MBA's be released along with Lion or with these machines?
Is there any significance in the fact that he said 'ALL NEW next-gen' instead of merely 'next-gen'?

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 12:46 PM
This is impossible. Not happening.

Apple's only supposed to care about "iToys" and nothing else. They don't care about Macs anymore.

That's the current track record, Macs on maintenance upgrades (i.e. uninspired and minimal), but I for one always live in the hope that Apple wakes up from this iOS disaster (from the POV of a Mac user) and start treating the Macintosh like a tier one platform, worthy of all their attention.

Actually I'm just expecting minis and Mac Pros with T-bolts, and that's it. Nothing interesting, just maintenance. :cool:

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 12:46 PM
Apple releases Mac Pro upgrades in 18-20 month intervals these days. IT and workstations is dead to them.



Someone needs to relearn how to count.

Zeldain
Jun 19, 2011, 12:48 PM
It should be noted that the LGA 2011 processors that the Mac Pros will use aren't scheduled for release until Q4, so Apple getting them 2 months early seems unlikely.

How do you know Apple will use them? And how do you know Apple will not get them early?

daneoni
Jun 19, 2011, 12:48 PM
Remove the optical drive bay, remove a couple PCIe slots, add a few Thunderbolt ports, add a couple 2.5" drive bays, and make everything SATA3. Shrink the size by half.

We already have MacBook Pro/Airs and Minis

Icaras
Jun 19, 2011, 12:48 PM
So does this mean that Mini's and Pro's are released later than Lion, or that Lion will launch later than expected? (although, ofcourse, late july is still an option) Will MBA's be released along with Lion or with these machines?

No, Lion is launching in July, as stated by the keynote and the website. If the new machines are launched in August, then yes, they're launching after Lion. At this point, there's no way of telling exactly what week the MBAs could land on. It could very well land on the same day as the Lion launch. But if all three machines get an update in the same timeframe, I'd say that's a pretty rare instance. There's only another time that I remember Apple doing that a few years back.

Is there any significance in the fact that he said 'ALL NEW next-gen' instead of merely 'next-gen'?

I think you're reading too much into it. ;)

snebes
Jun 19, 2011, 12:48 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

I bet the Mac Pro will be redesigned into a rack-mountable case. It's been a looooong time since a major redesign.

I think the aluminum (heatsink) look will remain, and the shape may change somewhat as it has in the past. The interior has been redesigned multiples times in the last 8-9 years. Maybe a 3U-4U width depending on the orientation of the ODD, no where near the depth of a server. Possibly a special server configuration with rail mounts instead of handles.... almost has me wanting one just thinking about it.

strausd
Jun 19, 2011, 12:49 PM
Is it just me, or Apple doesn't seem to care about the MacBooks anymore. Those Machines are stock with a Core Dual Processor. I like the MacBooks a lot, due to the way it looks, but like I said, seems like Apple doesn't care about them anymore!

My guess is that they will update the MBs with the MBAs.

Badbaw
Jun 19, 2011, 12:49 PM
So a slimmer stackable Mac Pro?

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 12:49 PM
Someone needs to relearn how to count.

Not really, it was 17+ months between the current Mac Pro and the last model.

Someone needs to relearn to read. And count apparently. And not jump to conclusions. (seemingly based on wishful thinking)

http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/

511 days. Eat crow.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 12:49 PM
That's the current track record, Macs on maintenance upgrades (i.e. uninspired and minimal), but I for one always live in the hope that Apple wakes up from this iOS disaster (from the POV of a Mac user) and start treating the Macintosh like a tier one platform, worthy of all their attention.

Actually I'm just expecting minis and Mac Pros with T-bolts, and that's it. Nothing interesting, just maintenance. :cool:

Apple will never grant more attention to Macs than they do now. So people should stop believing it.

iPads are the PC's of tomorrow. I don't like it either, but they are.

And after all, what more do people want for Apple to do with the Mac Pro design other than maintaining the newest generation chipsets and CPU's?

If you desperately need USB 3.0 and Apple doesn't add that option, you can buy it for 40$ as a PCI-E card. No big deal. I have one installed in my 4 year old Mac Pro right now, running without any issues.

Blu-Ray? Forget it. I think nobody in their right mind should be expecting BD support from Apple any time soon.

Badbaw
Jun 19, 2011, 12:51 PM
My guess is that they will update the MBs with the MBAs.

Or the Macbooks will be replaced with the current aluminum Macbook Pros, after they're updated with a liquid metal redesign. :eek:

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 12:51 PM
Apple will never grant more attention to Macs than they do now. So people should stop believing it.

iPads are the PC's of tomorrow. I don't like it either, but they are.

And after all, what more do people want for Apple to do with the Mac Pro design other than maintaining the newest generation chipsets and CPU's?

If you desperately need USB 3.0 and Apple doesn't add that option, you can buy it for 40$ as a PCI-E card. No big deal. I have one installed in my 4 year old Mac Pro right now, running without any issues.

Blu-Ray? Forget it. I think nobody in their right mind should be expecting BD support from Apple any time soon.

You're probably right, thus at the same time it means there's no future in professional Macs, so we should all just be looking for an exit strategy.

Apple is indeed not interested in Macs. Rightly or wrongly.

AJ Predictions
Jun 19, 2011, 12:52 PM
Those who watch the Apple Byte will know what I'm saying... who would be stupid enough to trust Brian Tong??

Umbongo
Jun 19, 2011, 12:52 PM
How do you know Apple will use them? And how do you know Apple will not get them early?

What else would they use? :confused:

We don't know Apple won't get them early, but 2 months is a stretch even with the Apple/Intel relationship. Of course all the information so far is just leaked stuff, no real confirmation from Intel.

dagamer34
Jun 19, 2011, 12:53 PM
What I don't get is why you need a source to state the obvious: shipping a new Mac with a new OS means its one less configuration to support (don't have to worry about 2011 MBAs, Mac Minis, or Mac Pros with Snow Leopard).

Though because it's a new OS, do expect some bugs that'll have to be fixed in 10.7.1.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 12:53 PM
Not really, it was 17+ months between the current Mac Pro and the last model.

Someone needs to relearn to read. And count apparently. And not jump to conclusions. (seemingly based on wishful thinking)

http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/

511 days. Eat crow.

The last Mac Pro's were released in last August, so it hasn't been even 10 months. The ones before that were released in March 2009, that's 15 months. The ones before that were released in January 2008, that's 14 months.

So you really can't get 15-20 months average from the latest releases. Again, you need to learn how to count.

511 days is the average of a very long time. Not just the recent ones. You said "these days", meaning you are interested in Apple's more recent cycles.

Hellhammer
Jun 19, 2011, 12:53 PM
There are still no Sandy Bridge CPUs suitable for Mac Pro. Unless Apple is looking for a significant change (drop DP models, basically a headless iMac), there is nothing to update.

mjuarez
Jun 19, 2011, 12:55 PM
It should be noted that the LGA 2011 processors that the Mac Pros will use aren't scheduled for release until Q4, so Apple getting them 2 months early seems unlikely.

Intel and Apple work very close together. Apple got Thunderbolt roughly a year before everybody else. Even now, there are no other computers out there with Thunderbolt (which Intel helped develop). So, why not give them exclusive access to the newer Sandy Bridge Xeons too? Maybe for a small fee, and it could also help Intel to "sample" them with a low volume OEM.

acslater017
Jun 19, 2011, 12:55 PM
That's the current track record, Macs on maintenance upgrades (i.e. uninspired and minimal), but I for one always live in the hope that Apple wakes up from this iOS disaster (from the POV of a Mac user) and start treating the Macintosh like a tier one platform, worthy of all their attention.

Actually I'm just expecting minis and Mac Pros with T-bolts, and that's it. Nothing interesting, just maintenance. :cool:

I think it reflects a few things. First, yes - the Mac is not the only thing going on with Apple these days. Steve Jobs officially demoted to it to being on par with the iPhone, iPad and iPod Touch (at least in relation to syncing and the cloud).

Second, the PC industry as a whole is undergoing a plateauing of sorts. Apple is actually doing a great job IMO. Macs are flying off the shelves, as the rest of the PC industry shrinks. The iMac, MacBook Air, and MacBook Pro are the industry gold standards for their categories. The MacBook and Mac Mini could probably be given a boost.

These are not 90's anymore, where each new computer you get doubles its clocks speed.

portishead
Jun 19, 2011, 12:56 PM
We already have MacBook Pro/Airs

You mean Mac Mini? There is just no reason to have a huge Mac Pro anymore. Maybe there will be internal Thunderbolt ports/peripherals.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 12:56 PM
You're probably right, thus at the same time it means there's no future in professional Macs, so we should all just be looking for an exit strategy.

Apple is indeed not interested in Macs. Rightly or wrongly.

That's utter nonsense. Just because Apple does not spend money on new case designs for Mac Pro's, doesn't mean there's no future in professional Macs. Apple is spending a lot of money and effort on their Pro Apps. For whom? Professionals who use workstations, and Apple workstations since Apple Pro Apps don't run on Windows.

Professional workstations will always exist. If Apple decides to stop producing Mac Pro's that means either their iMacs have become fast enough for anyone to do professional work, in that case we won't need a Mac Pro anymore, or they also abandoned all their Pro App business together with it as well. I don't see any of it happening any time soon.

andylyon
Jun 19, 2011, 12:56 PM
That's the current track record, Macs on maintenance upgrades (i.e. uninspired and minimal), but I for one always live in the hope that Apple wakes up from this iOS disaster (from the POV of a Mac user) and start treating the Macintosh like a tier one platform, worthy of all their attention.

Actually I'm just expecting minis and Mac Pros with T-bolts, and that's it. Nothing interesting, just maintenance. :cool:

So what if they do concentrate most of their efforts on their iOS devices? How is making bucket loads of money a disaster from their point of view as a business? I'm not saying this is right or wrong but isn't it up to Apple what direction they go in?

Correct me if i'm wrong.

ratzzo
Jun 19, 2011, 12:57 PM
Excellent news! I wonder if we will see a design shift (all new generation?).. curious to see what hardware they have chosen

*LTD*
Jun 19, 2011, 12:57 PM
That's the current track record, Macs on maintenance upgrades (i.e. uninspired and minimal), but I for one always live in the hope that Apple wakes up from this iOS disaster (from the POV of a Mac user) and start treating the Macintosh like a tier one platform, worthy of all their attention.

Actually I'm just expecting minis and Mac Pros with T-bolts, and that's it. Nothing interesting, just maintenance. :cool:

Post-PC era. Different priorities. the PC paradigm has run its course. You'll see more integration of iOS with Macs, and similarly huge leaps in power and capability of iOS devices.

We'll still have Macs and they will still serve a purpose. But they will be increasingly marginalized *away* from everyday computing. The MacBook Air already resembles more of an iOS device than a traditional "computer", or even a traditional notebook.

Macs will still be there for Pro work. Though from what we can see from the increasing power and utility of iOS apps, even everyday users with lower-end Macs and increasingly-capable iOS devices will be able to do work approaching the "Pro" level.

It's all very empowering when it comes to the average user, and blurs the line between Joe Average and Pros just a little bit further.

Mr. Gates
Jun 19, 2011, 12:57 PM
Sooooooo.......

Exactly how many thunderbolt devices ( Like portable hard drives ) are there ??

Not to many.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 12:57 PM
There are still no Sandy Bridge CPUs suitable for Mac Pro. Unless Apple is looking for a significant change (drop DP models, basically a headless iMac), there is nothing to update.

Apple has received chipsets and CPU's couple months ahead of official launch from Intel before. What's to say they won't do the same now?

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 12:58 PM
Sooooooo.......

Exactly how many thunderbolt devices ( Like portable hard drives ) are there ??

Not to many.

How many USB 3.0 devices are there? Surely more than TB but still not a lot. USB 3.0 was released more than a year ahead of TB. Just wait a year and see.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 12:58 PM
The last Mac Pro's were released in last August, so it hasn't been even 10 months. The ones before that were released in March 2009, that's 15 months. The ones before that were released in Junaury 2008, that's 14 months.

So you really can't get 15-20 months average from the latest releases. Again, you need to learn how to count.

511 days is the average of a very long time. Not just the recent ones. You said "these days", meaning you are interested in Apple's more recent cycles.

No, 511 days is no average, it is the time between the current Mac Pro release and the last one. Thus "these days". :p

portishead
Jun 19, 2011, 12:58 PM
Why?

Because there is no reason for all that empty space in there. Maybe not half, but you could cut the size down a little for sure. I know it's pretty to have everything stuffed inside, but it's not really necessary.

friedmud
Jun 19, 2011, 01:00 PM
If the new Mac Pros have the 10 core hyperthreaded Intel CPUs then I'll probably upgrade from my 2010 Mac Pro (40 logical cores FTW!).

If they just stick with 6 cores I'll probably just buy a few SSD drives to put in RAID0 in my current Mac Pro.

What really sucks is that I can buy a dual 12 core workstation right right now... If I didn't want to stick with Apple... hopefully Apple will give me a reason to vanquish those thoughts!

strausd
Jun 19, 2011, 01:00 PM
Or the Macbooks will be replaced with the current aluminum Macbook Pros, after they're updated with a liquid metal redesign. :eek:

I don't see that happening. I feel they are too different and appeal to different groups, at the moment that is. The current bottom line MB has much more hard drive space, although mechanical, and a faster CPU. The MBA starts with a much smaller screen, only 64GB SSD, and a slower CPU.

I think the only way they would drop the MB and just have a MBA and MBP is if they were able to have a 13" option with a rather large SSD and a fast CPU for near the same price as the starting MB. But right now, a MBA with 256GB storage and a 2.14GHz CPU is $1,700. I think there is just too much of a difference for them to drop the MB.

Also, on their store they have their top 5 selling items, the MacBook is on there, but the MacBook Air isn't.

Hellhammer
Jun 19, 2011, 01:01 PM
Apple has received chipsets and CPU's couple months ahead of official launch from Intel before. What's to say they won't do the same now?

Because the suitable chips are scheduled to be released in Q4. Apple's early access in the past has been like one month (e.g. 2009), not several months. Late August could be plausible, assuming the chips are released at the beginning of Q4.

daneoni
Jun 19, 2011, 01:01 PM
You mean Mac Mini? There is just no reason for me to have a huge Mac Pro anymore. Maybe there will be internal Thunderbolt ports/peripherals.

Fixed.

There is a still a sizable market for the Pro Workstation. The mini simply cannot hold a candle to a true Xeon/Modular Workstation.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 01:01 PM
Post-PC era. Different priorities. the PC paradigm has run its course. You'll see more integration of iOS with Macs, and similarly huge leaps in power and capability of iOS devices.

We'll still have Macs and they will still serve a purpose. But they will be increasingly marginalized *away* from everyday computing. The MacBook Air already resembles more of an iOS device than a traditional "computer", or even a traditional notebook.

Macs will still be there for Pro work. Though from what we can see from the increasing power and utility of iOS apps, even everyday users with lower-end Macs and increasingly-capable iOS devices will be able to do work approaching the "Pro" level.

It's all very empowering when it comes to the average user, and blurs the line between Joe Average and Pros just a little bit further.

Exactly.

15 years ago a professional needed the fastest and the brightest of Macs to do his work. Today a graphic designer can get away with a cheap iMac, or even Mac Mini if he wishes so.

People who need a Mac Pro are a minority now. And they will keep needing it so Mac Pro's will be made, but they will only be maintained like Apple has been doing lately.

orfeas0
Jun 19, 2011, 01:02 PM
That all depends on what kind of etc you own, and whether it has the right connectors.



There's even an acronym for that now? Wow.

YCMAFE (You Can Make an Acronym For Everything).

By the way, still no news about the white macbook. I hope they update it when Lion comes out together with the air, otherwise I guess it's being discontinued...:(

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 01:02 PM
Because the suitable chips are scheduled to be released in Q4. Apple's early access in the past has been like one month (e.g. 2009), not several months. Late August could be plausible, assuming the chips are released at the beginning of Q4.

I suppose if Apple announced something in July, they'd ship it in August like last year. So that could be possible.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 01:04 PM
No, 511 days is no average, it is the time between the current Mac Pro release and the last one. Thus "these days". :p

So if it's not the average, and only one number in a cycle of many releases, and the highest one, how do we deduce that it's the "rule" now? :)

The average cycle in the last 3 years is around 13 months, so it's safe to expect a new Mac Pro around August / September. But of course it's up to Intel, not Apple.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 01:05 PM
I think it reflects a few things. First, yes - the Mac is not the only thing going on with Apple these days. Steve Jobs officially demoted to it to being on par with the iPhone, iPad and iPod Touch (at least in relation to syncing and the cloud).

Second, the PC industry as a whole is undergoing a plateauing of sorts. Apple is actually doing a great job IMO. Macs are flying off the shelves, as the rest of the PC industry shrinks. The iMac, MacBook Air, and MacBook Pro are the industry gold standards for their categories. The MacBook and Mac Mini could probably be given a boost.

These are not 90's anymore, where each new computer you get doubles its clocks speed.

All true, it's just curious that Apple doesn't even give it a second thought that now *finally* even as the PC market is plateauing and the Macs are flying off the shelves, that they should use that momentum and push the Mac finally above 10% of computers - and they don't care about that because (I believe) they feel the Mac is a distraction (profitable one) from Steve's vision of the iPad-like future.

Apple has (it seems) taken the strategic decision to depreciate and wind down the Mac. Be it because they feel they can't "win", that the growth potential isn't interesting enough or because it doesn't fit into the "vision"... is largely irrelevant. It's there and it sucks for Mac users.

Except those who wonder what computers are for apart from reading news online and checking Facebook. It may not be the 90s anymore, but the computer business is still profitable and computers are quite versatile. More so than an iPad can ever be.

ratzzo
Jun 19, 2011, 01:06 PM
Now there will be more computers with a TB port than actual TB enabled peripherals.

Also, who is Brian Tong..? I guess MR has reasons to believe he's for real when his tweet is posted in the front page. Google yielded this site... what? http://www.briantong.com/ :confused::confused:

Mr. Gates
Jun 19, 2011, 01:08 PM
How many USB 3.0 devices are there? Surely more than TB but still not a lot. USB 3.0 was released more than a year ahead of TB. Just wait a year and see.

Actually there are tons.

But I hope you're right.

Umbongo
Jun 19, 2011, 01:08 PM
Because there is no reason for all that empty space in there. Maybe not half, but you could cut the size down a little for sure. I know it's pretty to have everything stuffed inside, but it's not really necessary.

It isn't empty space. You need space for the cooling of powerful components.

The Mac Pro sans handles is smaller than most enthusiast cases, let alone E-ATX workstation cases. With the 2009-2010 models this meant less memory slots than standard fr the chipsets used and still continues to limit expansion of internal drives.

chaosbunny
Jun 19, 2011, 01:08 PM
Whenever it comes, I'm looking forward to a new gpu for my Mac Pro. I just hope one won't need Lion for it.

Umbongo
Jun 19, 2011, 01:08 PM
Now there will be more computers with a TB port than actual TB enabled peripherals.

Also, who is Brian Tong..? I guess MR has reasons to believe he's for real when his tweet is posted in the front page. Google yielded this site... what? http://www.briantong.com/ :confused::confused:

He is a CNET editor.

*LTD*
Jun 19, 2011, 01:09 PM
Exactly.

15 years ago a professional needed the fastest and the brightest of Macs to do his work. Today a graphic designer can get away with a cheap iMac, or even Mac Mini if he wishes so.

People who need a Mac Pro are a minority now. And they will keep needing it so Mac Pro's will be made, but they will only be maintained like Apple has been doing lately.

Correct. You're looking at the situation in the clear light of day as well. And you're a Mac Pro user on top of that.

It would be much easier if these particular users accepted the current situation and where we're headed and do their best to transition what they can over to the new paradigm (as it progresses) rather than fight it at every turn.

You can either get with the program or remain a perpetual (and increasingly marginalized) holdout. The latter of which will become a progressively less pleasant situation as we move forward. It must be hell for those still clinging to their PowerPC Macs, wailing about the removal of Rosetta, and hoping against all hope for a mid-size headless Mac tower.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 01:09 PM
That's utter nonsense. Just because Apple does not spend money on new case designs for Mac Pro's, doesn't mean there's no future in professional Macs. Apple is spending a lot of money and effort on their Pro Apps. For whom? Professionals who use workstations, and Apple workstations since Apple Pro Apps don't run on Windows.

Professional workstations will always exist. If Apple decides to stop producing Mac Pro's that means either their iMacs have become fast enough for anyone to do professional work, in that case we won't need a Mac Pro anymore, or they also abandoned all their Pro App business together with it as well. I don't see any of it happening any time soon.

Not really, Apple needs to spend money on designs and development to be competitive. That can mean new case designs, but it also means frequent upgrades. 6-8 month upgrades of the Pro machines would be far more appropriate than 17+ months. .. if Apple was serious about pro-users.

The same more or less happened to the XServe. It got less and less frequently upgraded, it lost the little popularity it had because of that and Apple axed it - without even offering any warning to those who relied upon it.

iMacs are no replacement for Mac Pros. Or a very un-serious one. Thus it doesn't deserve a serious answer.

strausd
Jun 19, 2011, 01:09 PM
There is just no reason to have a huge Mac Pro anymore.

Go to the Mac Pro forum section and say that, I dare you.

For whom? Professionals who use workstations, and Apple workstations since Apple Pro Apps don't run on Windows.

Professional workstations will always exist. If Apple decides to stop producing Mac Pro's that means either their iMacs have become fast enough for anyone to do professional work, in that case we won't need a Mac Pro anymore, or they also abandoned all their Pro App business together with it as well. I don't see any of it happening any time soon.

I think their main audience with their professional software is people who use top of the line iMacs and MBPs. If you go to their FCP page, it's being shown on a MBP, so is Aperture.

When you can have a dual socket iMac, then I will consider it "fast enough."

Because there is no reason for all that empty space in there. Maybe not half, but you could cut the size down a little for sure. I know it's pretty to have everything stuffed inside, but it's not really necessary.

Did it ever occur to you that people who actually NEED a Mac Pro don't have empty space? Maybe they actually use all the internal ports for what they were meant for?


What really sucks is that I can buy a dual 12 core workstation right right now... If I didn't want to stick with Apple... hopefully Apple will give me a reason to vanquish those thoughts!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't those be AMD CPUs? With extremely slow clock speeds? And no hyperthreading? And no turbo boost? Just curious.

daneoni
Jun 19, 2011, 01:09 PM
Now there will be more computers with a TB port than actual TB enabled peripherals.

Also, who is Brian Tong..? I guess MR has reasons to believe he's for real when his tweet is posted in the front page. Google yielded this site... what? http://www.briantong.com/ :confused::confused:

He's a CNet tech editor.

JesterJJZ
Jun 19, 2011, 01:10 PM
Remove the optical drive bay, remove a couple PCIe slots, add a few Thunderbolt ports, add a couple 2.5" drive bays, and make everything SATA3. Shrink the size by half.

No thanks...make it bigger...

neiltc13
Jun 19, 2011, 01:10 PM
Let's hope that if there is a new design for Mac Pro it doesn't include any of this hideous black plastic that has polluted all of Apple's other lines. I can't believe the designers think that we are better now with laptops with black keys and black bezels when we had truly beautiful all-silver machines before.

The current laptop construction with silver instead of black plastic would be incredible.

Whenever it comes, I'm looking forward to a new gpu for my Mac Pro. I just hope one won't need Lion for it.

I just hope we don't have to pay £380 for an old and outdated card (http://store.apple.com/uk/product/MC743ZM/A?mco=MTY3ODQ5OTY).

bdkennedy1
Jun 19, 2011, 01:10 PM
The Mac Pro I can see being redesigned. It's been 8 years. But the Mac Mini? That was just redesigned last year.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 01:10 PM
Actually there are tons.

But I hope you're right.

Tons? Western Digital added USB 3.0 supported external disks couple months ago only.

There really can't be tons of USB 3.0 devices anyway because not everything that uses USB will benefit from USB 3.0.

Same reason that there won't be tons of TB devices.

mambodancer
Jun 19, 2011, 01:10 PM
End of July or August for an accurate prediction? Wow, that's going out on a limb.

bobobenobi
Jun 19, 2011, 01:11 PM
It should be noted that the LGA 2011 processors that the Mac Pros will use aren't scheduled for release until Q4, so Apple getting them 2 months early seems unlikely.

It has happened at least twice before. Apple had exclusivity with the Clovertown and Nehalem Xeon processors.

linux2mac
Jun 19, 2011, 01:12 PM
The mini simply cannot hold a candle to a true Xeon/Modular Workstation.

Not according to this article.

"Need more horsepower? Just get another Mini and connect with Light Peak. Grand Central will automatically distribute the load across multiple devices. A 2U rack will hold eight Mac Minis that, tightly coupled, will run rings around an Xserve."

http://www.cringely.com/2011/02/attack-of-the-minis/

MrXiro
Jun 19, 2011, 01:13 PM
YCMAFE (You Can Make an Acronym For Everything).

By the way, still no news about the white macbook. I hope they update it when Lion comes out together with the air, otherwise I guess it's being discontinued...:(

An Acronym is actually something you can pronounce... like FUBAR or SCUBA... what BYOB and YCMAFE is, is an initialism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acronym_and_initialism

arkitect
Jun 19, 2011, 01:13 PM
A new Mac Pro?

I'm ready to place my order. :)

Besides the nice new hardware, it would be affirmation from Apple that the desktop has not been abandoned.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 01:13 PM
So what if they do concentrate most of their efforts on their iOS devices? How is making bucket loads of money a disaster from their point of view as a business? I'm not saying this is right or wrong but isn't it up to Apple what direction they go in?

Correct me if i'm wrong.

No, no, you're right - there's nothing wrong with it as such. It just sucks for us who use and depend upon Macs and don't care a diddly about iOS devices - it is also a waste since the Mac is quite popular and it's market share and unit sales grow leaps and bounds these days.

The decision to spend less and less effort on Macs isn't because they're doing badly or aren't making a boat-load of money for Apple, it's just a strategic decision. Apple doen't need to wind down Mac development to ensure plenty of iOS development (it isn't a zero sum game), it's just a strategic (and IMO a stupid, myopic and quite silly) decision.

But technically, there's nothing *wrong* with it. Nor is it particularly *right* either.

strausd
Jun 19, 2011, 01:13 PM
By the way, still no news about the white macbook. I hope they update it when Lion comes out together with the air, otherwise I guess it's being discontinued...:(

I doubt it will be discontinued. It is on Apple's top 5 seller list, the MBA isn't.

Actually there are tons.


That's because USB 3.0 has been out longer and has been given time for people to make stuff for it.

Every new thing like this needs time to grow, but I think TB will grow a little faster than USB 3.0 with Intels backing.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 01:15 PM
Not really, Apple needs to spend money on designs and development to be competitive. That can mean new case designs, but it also means frequent upgrades. 6-8 month upgrades of the Pro machines would be far more appropriate than 17+ months. .. if Apple was serious about pro-users.

The same more or less happened to the XServe. It got less and less frequently upgraded, it lost the little popularity it had because of that and Apple axed it - without even offering any warning to those who relied upon it.

iMacs are no replacement for Mac Pros. Or a very un-serious one. Thus it doesn't deserve a serious answer.

6-8 month upgrades are impossible Intel does not produce new Xeon chips every 6-8 months. Apple's Mac Pro releases for the past 5 years have been depending on Intel's release cycles. Nothing else.

And enough with the 17+ nonsense. Just because it was 17 months between the 2009 Mac Pro and 2010 Mac Pro doesn't mean Intel's average cycle for Xeons is 17 months. It's around 13 months the last 3 years and 12 months the last 5 years.

XServes were axed because nobody was buying them. Mac Pro still has a market. Not a big one, but much bigger than XServe.

An iMac is a replacement for a Mac Pro, even a Mac Mini is a replacement for a Mac Pro, if your job doesn't require 12 processor cores.

ratzzo
Jun 19, 2011, 01:15 PM
End of July or August for an accurate prediction? Wow, that's going out on a limb.

Actually it'd would be a pretty good prediction estimate, since he is basically just giving it 2 weeks margin (first week of august.. so about 26 july to 7th aug)

res1233
Jun 19, 2011, 01:16 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

This is impossible. Not happening.

Apple's only supposed to care about "iToys" and nothing else. They don't care about Macs anymore.

That's the current track record, Macs on maintenance upgrades (i.e. uninspired and minimal), but I for one always live in the hope that Apple wakes up from this iOS disaster (from the POV of a Mac user) and start treating the Macintosh like a tier one platform, worthy of all their attention.

Actually I'm just expecting minis and Mac Pros with T-bolts, and that's it. Nothing interesting, just maintenance. :cool:

You call thunderbolt maintenance? What are you smoking? I want some.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 01:17 PM
We'll still have Macs and they will still serve a purpose. But they will be increasingly marginalized *away* from everyday computing. The MacBook Air already resembles more of an iOS device than a traditional "computer", or even a traditional notebook.

Yep marginalized, but by Apple, not the users. It's a cognitive decision, a strategic move - trying to make your fantasy (and Gruber's and Steve Jobs') real.

It isn't. There is no Post-PC era. Quite the contrary, but there is the chance for Apple to become the permanent leader and the dominant player in portable devices (i.e. the iOS devices)

The MBA will probably (in the end) be the only laptop-like device sold by Apple and it will run iOS. Macs will continue to be marginalized by Apple until people finally *get* it and stop buying them, allowing Apple to discontinue the development of Macs.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 01:18 PM
I think their main audience with their professional software is people who use top of the line iMacs and MBPs. If you go to their FCP page, it's being shown on a MBP, so is Aperture.


It's not. If you followed the news on Final Cut X, the "audience" they demoed the software was cream of the crop editors working in Hollywood and broadcast. They demoed it using Mac Pro, not iMac, also none of those people will use iMacs or MBP's.

It's irrelevant what their FCP page shows.

daneoni
Jun 19, 2011, 01:18 PM
Not according to this article.

"Need more horsepower? Just get another Mini and connect with Light Peak. Grand Central will automatically distribute the load across multiple devices. A 2U rack will hold eight Mac Minis that, tightly coupled, will run rings around an Xserve."

http://www.cringely.com/2011/02/attack-of-the-minis/

More the modularity than CPU. What will happen when you want to run a Quadro GPU or drive multiple displays?

Big-TDI-Guy
Jun 19, 2011, 01:20 PM
So, Minis have Lightpeek now? :confused:

I thought they were about to get Thunderbolt - which is not Lightpeek in its original iteration.

Did I miss something?

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 01:21 PM
More the modularity than CPU. What will happen when you want to run a Quadro GPU or drive multiple displays?

If you need a Quadro GPU and multiple drive displays, you wouldn't be buying a Mac Mini.

That quote was about using Mac Mini's as a server, servers don't need Quadro GPU's, or any displays, let along multiple ones. :)

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 01:21 PM
So if it's not the average, and only one number in a cycle of many releases, and the highest one, how do we deduce that it's the "rule" now? :)


Because it is a trend :)

292 days, then 240, then 279, then 420 days and finally 511 days. The trend is far more interesting than the average (which would include numbers from a different time, a time when Apple cared about Macs in general and Mac Pros in particular as much as they care for the iOS devices today)

42streetsdown
Jun 19, 2011, 01:21 PM
Is it just me, or Apple doesn't seem to care about the MacBooks anymore. Those Machines are stock with a Core Dual Processor. I like the MacBooks a lot, due to the way it looks, but like I said, seems like Apple doesn't care about them anymore!

They aren't the biggest sellers so it makes sense that Apple doesn't pay as much attention to them. maybe if they were to drop the price 100-200 dollars they'd be more desirable. at the same price as the 11 inch MBA who would want one.

ratzzo
Jun 19, 2011, 01:22 PM
The Mac Pro I can see being redesigned. It's been 8 years. But the Mac Mini? That was just redesigned last year.

True. I like the current design very much, but I won't mind a new one. New designs are usually better than the previous... I hope this will be true for the Mini as well if they are indeed redesigned. Perhaps they want to attract more attention to their most affordable Mac?

edoates
Jun 19, 2011, 01:23 PM
well, as least semi-pros, not the hollywood guys.
Unless the new FCS and MacPro have some sort of Bluray support besides buying Adobe stuff with Encore (which is not very good ...) or using Toast to author essentually menu-less BluRay, I'm going to have to switch.

Many say physical optical media is dead, but my customers want a deliverable, not a web address. Brides and corporations don't take kindly to "here's your video: log in here." The quality is not as good as BR anyway (and won't be until we all have 50MB or better internet for 1080p (24 /30 / 60 someday) deliveries. 720P doesn't cut it, and H.264 for web speeds is visibly lower in quality.

My customers want to hand something physical out.

So, unless a miracle happens, I'm looking back into Windows land: sony Vegas pro, etc.

Been a Mac user since Lisa the way ...

daneoni
Jun 19, 2011, 01:23 PM
If you need a Quadro GPU and multiple drive displays, you wouldn't be buying a Mac Mini.

That quote was about using Mac Mini's as a server, servers don't need Quadro GPU's, or any displays, let along multiple ones. :)

potishead (and some others) are arguing the necessity of a Mac Pro and if it is still needed. In a world of minis.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 01:23 PM
Yep marginalized, but by Apple, not the users. It's a cognitive decision, a strategic move - trying to make your fantasy (and Gruber's and Steve Jobs') real.


It's not Apple's fantasy. Have you been blind to what was happening around you the last couple of years? Have you heard about Android? Windows Mobile?



There is no Post-PC era.

Oh I think many people in software industry will disagree with that :)

potishead (and some others) are arguing the necessity of a Mac Pro and if it is still needed. In a world of minis.

Anyone who claims it's not needed at all is blind as anyone who claims it's as much needed as before.

I have been a Mac Pro / PowerMac user for 15 years, but right now I'm actually considering to make my next upgrade an iMac. I'm not going to, but I have considered it for the first time in years. And the only reason I won't buy an iMac is not because of the speed difference. The speed is enough for me, but I need PCI-E, and also I want to keep using my 30" screen and not to downgrade to 27".

But if iMac had some PCI-E and did come with a 30" screen, I'd buy one.

well, as least semi-pros, not the hollywood guys.
Unless the new FCS and MacPro have some sort of Bluray support besides buying Adobe stuff with Encore (which is not very good ...) or using Toast to author essentually menu-less BluRay, I'm going to have to switch.

Many say physical optical media is dead, but my customers want a deliverable, not a web address. Brides and corporations don't take kindly to "here's your video: log in here." The quality is not as good as BR anyway (and won't be until we all have 50MB or better internet for 1080p (24 /30 / 60 someday) deliveries. 720P doesn't cut it, and H.264 for web speeds is visibly lower in quality.

My customers want to hand something physical out.

So, unless a miracle happens, I'm looking back into Windows land: sony Vegas pro, etc.

Been a Mac user since Lisa the way ...
You don't need Blu Ray Authoring to cut your full feature movie on your mac. There's something called transfer. :) And Bootcamp.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 01:28 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)



You call thunderbolt maintenance? What are you smoking? I want some.

Sure have some.

Yeah, adding a port to a machine isn't (I'm pretty sure) what constitutes "all-new next-gen Mac Pros" as the excited Mr. Tong claims.

Adding a port to the Mac Pro, I think, would be fair to say was maintenance. Probably much needed maintenance, but maintenance non-the-less. :cool:

squaros
Jun 19, 2011, 01:29 PM
I wonder if any of iCarly's sources could back this up? This guy is a tool.

Blue Velvet
Jun 19, 2011, 01:30 PM
Today a graphic designer can get away with a cheap iMac, or even Mac Mini if he wishes so.


'Get away with' being the operative phrase, even for women designers. ;)

Some of us like a little more headroom, expandability, flexibility and like their Macs to last for a while. iMacs don't offer much in the way of display choice, consistency and quality; Minis are saddled with pokey slow little drives and limits on RAM as the Creative Suite and other apps become ever-increasing resource hogs with each new iteration. A publication I'm working on right now, with templates from the publisher, are choking my MBP because the running heads and masthead are choked with hundreds of vector points, embedded into the InDesign file.

In my case, I've also got almost 2TB of current and archived work, almost half a lifetime worth of stuff that I'd rather not have stashed across a spider's web of external drives.

Possibly new Mac Pros on the way? Best news for ages. Don't ever let anyone tell anyone else here that no-one needs a Mac Pro.

mrwheet
Jun 19, 2011, 01:32 PM
You're probably right, thus at the same time it means there's no future in professional Macs, so we should all just be looking for an exit strategy.

Apple is indeed not interested in Macs. Rightly or wrongly.

Well, I understand why people feel this way, but the ground-up rewrite of Final Cut is definitely NOT evidence for Apple giving up on their pro market. That would have been a MASSIVE undertaking. Also, they'd be wise to offer up new hardware for FCP X to run on, so I don't actually see anything strange about the possibility of new Mac Pros.

-- Also, it's worth pointing out that the extremely low price-point for FCP X is a pretty strong indication that it's going to be used to promote hardware sales - i.e., Mac Pros.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 01:32 PM
It's not Apple's fantasy. Have you been blind to what was happening around you the last couple of years? Have you heard about Android? Windows Mobile?


Yeah, in passing. I've still not met anyone who's ditched his/her PC for any of those devices.

Thus, no Post-PC era, since PC are aplenty and quite dominant. The iOS devices and Android/WindowsMobile are quite capable complements to the PCs - no doubt. But one would have to be quite out there to claim in all seriousness that there is now a Post-PC era.

The same guy who claimed that, also claimed in 2005 that now was the year of HD. To this day, he hasn't made BD support available in Macs. I would take whatever comes out of Steve Jobs' mouth with a grain of salt.

ratzzo
Jun 19, 2011, 01:33 PM
Yep marginalized, but by Apple, not the users. It's a cognitive decision, a strategic move - trying to make your fantasy (and Gruber's and Steve Jobs') real.

It isn't. There is no Post-PC era. Quite the contrary, but there is the chance for Apple to become the permanent leader and the dominant player in portable devices (i.e. the iOS devices)

The MBA will probably (in the end) be the only laptop-like device sold by Apple and it will run iOS. Macs will continue to be marginalized by Apple until people finally *get* it and stop buying them, allowing Apple to discontinue the development of Macs.

Granted, Apple's revenue comes mostly from the iPhone and the Mac sales have been shadowed by such good reception their mobiles have had. But the 'iCloud effect' as I call it, essentially the fact that people believe it's incredibly useful and will replace the traditional computer (when it isn't even out and half the word doesnt have broadband) will not make Apple discontinue the development of Macs, especially so as long as it stays a profitable business.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 01:33 PM
'Get away with' being the operative phrase, even for women designers. ;)

Some of us like a little more headroom, expandability, flexibility and like their Macs to last for a while. iMacs don't offer much in the way of display choice, consistency and quality; Minis are saddled with pokey slow little drives and limits on RAM as the Creative Suite and other apps become ever-increasing resource hogs with each new iteration. A publication I'm working on right now, with templates from the publisher, are choking my MBP because the running heads and masthead are choked with hundreds of vector points, embedded into the InDesign file.

In my case, I've also got almost 2TB of current and archived work, almost half a lifetime worth of stuff that I'd rather not have stashed across a spider's web of external drives.

Possibly new Mac Pros on the way? Best news for ages. Don't ever let anyone tell anyone else here that no-one needs a Mac Pro.

You can always make use of a faster Mac. But it only makes sense if the extra cost is really worth.

A graphic designer doesn't have much use for 12 cores, not even 4 cores for the most of the time. Illustrator, Indesign, these tools don't require cores nor do they make use of them. Photoshop is the only software that makes use of extra cores, and it does make use of them only if you are applying a filter. I know many graphic designers who use Photoshop only for retouching and cleaning photos up. That does not require any extra cores.

So a 600$ Mac Mini + 150$ external HD will do the same job for the same speed for a big group of graphic designers. For real.

G4DP
Jun 19, 2011, 01:34 PM
Intel and Apple work very close together. Apple got Thunderbolt roughly a year before everybody else. Even now, there are no other computers out there with Thunderbolt (which Intel helped develop). So, why not give them exclusive access to the newer Sandy Bridge Xeons too? Maybe for a small fee, and it could also help Intel to "sample" them with a low volume OEM.

Intel didn't help to develop TB. They solely developed it! Google something called Light Peak.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 01:34 PM
Yeah, in passing. I've still not met anyone who's ditched his/her PC for any of those devices.


Post PC era does not mean the PC is dead. It means that it's not the most important and central thing anymore.

42streetsdown
Jun 19, 2011, 01:35 PM
Because there is no reason for all that empty space in there. Maybe not half, but you could cut the size down a little for sure. I know it's pretty to have everything stuffed inside, but it's not really necessary.

There is a good reason to have that space. COOLING!

reel2reel
Jun 19, 2011, 01:38 PM
Exactly.

15 years ago a professional needed the fastest and the brightest of Macs to do his work. Today a graphic designer can get away with a cheap iMac, or even Mac Mini if he wishes so.

People who need a Mac Pro are a minority now. And they will keep needing it so Mac Pro's will be made, but they will only be maintained like Apple has been doing lately.

Bull, bull and more bull.

People should stop basing your view of the world on tv ad's. In the real-world over here, we buy a couple Mac Pro's every few months for designers, video editors, etc, etc. Nobody wants to work on a laptop or iMac. At first it sounds fun, but then you realize how bottle-necked you are. Suddenly everyone is fighting to *not* use an iMac or MacBook.

So much for the minority theory. And I hardly think Apple would be refreshing Mac Pro's after only a year if this statement was even close to reality.

(I'm not speaking to you personally, but more to the idea that you're offering. Sorry if it sounded otherwise)

strausd
Jun 19, 2011, 01:38 PM
It's not. If you followed the news on Final Cut X, the "audience" they demoed the software was cream of the crop editors working in Hollywood and broadcast. They demoed it using Mac Pro, not iMac, also none of those people will use iMacs or MBP's.

It's irrelevant what their FCP page shows.

Most people will see it off the Apple website, thus making it relevant. And because more people will see it off their website, one could make the argument that demoing it on a Mac Pro is irrelevant.

Also, this story (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/16/apple-has-a-poor-track-record-on-dot-zero-releases/) has a professional saying that it won't be for good for professional use at first because it will have so many issues since it is a total rewrite. Not to mention I have seen multiple other articles saying that the new version seems to be for more serious amateurs and not professionals. There was even one story on gizmodo that explained in detail why it will not be for professionals.

Just because the "audience" at the demo was "cream of the crop" doesn't mean they are the only ones who will use it hahahaha. And notice that I said "MAIN audience." I still think that there will be more people using it who do not work in Hollywood than people who do work in Hollywood. Learn to read, maybe get hooked on Phonics ;)

But of course no matter which way you want to see it, it has not even been released yet, so we can't say anything for sure.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 01:40 PM
Well, I understand why people feel this way, but the ground-up rewrite of Final Cut is definitely NOT evidence for Apple giving up on their pro market. That would have been a MASSIVE undertaking. Also, they'd be wise to offer up new hardware for FCP X to run on, so I don't actually see anything strange about the possibility of new Mac Pros.

I don't see anything strange about the possibility of new Mac Pros, but I would if they were anything but a minor maintenance upgrade. I would like to underscore with all seriousness, that the disinterest Apple is showing the Mac doesn't mean the Mac is dead or dying anytime soon.. but in 5 years, continuing this same trend, then we'll be looking at a non-pro Mac line and in another 5 years, all laptop-line of Macs, running iOS (which will certainly be far more capable then, than it is now)

Point being, it's a slow downward spiral, and as such there is full reason for Apple to rewrite FCP. The rewrite was started more than two years ago anyway, and back then the future of the Mac was far brighter than it is today.

The Mac may be a nuisance and perhaps a distraction from Steve Jobs' vision, but Apple will muddle through with this distraction for a few more years before starting the wind-down in earnest (i.e. stop the maintenance upgrades and cutting down development of desktop machines entirely)

Hopefully this won't happen - I'm a big big fan of the Mac and hope it lives at least as long in it's OS X incarnation as it lived in the System 1-9 incarnation.

wordoflife
Jun 19, 2011, 01:40 PM
For some reason, I picture the new Mac Pros with two black glass panels on the side ... kinda like the iPhone 4.

farmboy
Jun 19, 2011, 01:40 PM
An Acronym is actually something you can pronounce... like FUBAR or SCUBA... what BYOB and YCMAFE is, is an initialism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acronym_and_initialism

Yes, although in the past we have had SCSI, clearly an initialism, but always pronounced "scuzzy", never S-C-S-I.

markiv810
Jun 19, 2011, 01:40 PM
I have been waiting for quite some time for the mac mini (upgraded version), the C2D is quite outdated. I hope we get a Mac Mini with at least an i5 processor, I shall throw away my Pentium III 800 MHz computer that I have at my parents house. Only if dreams could come true....

arbitter
Jun 19, 2011, 01:43 PM
WOW nobody saw that coming. I'll tell you now there'll be a new MacBook with the launch of Lion as well. Please write an article about me.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 01:43 PM
Granted, Apple's revenue comes mostly from the iPhone and the Mac sales have been shadowed by such good reception their mobiles have had. But the 'iCloud effect' as I call it, essentially the fact that people believe it's incredibly useful and will replace the traditional computer (when it isn't even out and half the word doesnt have broadband) will not make Apple discontinue the development of Macs, especially so as long as it stays a profitable business.

Perhaps you are right, but considering how fast the Mac is growing and indeed how profitable it is for Apple, it isn't getting (IMO) the attention and development it once did when it was far less popular and slower in growth.

It seems the more popular the Mac gets (probably because of the halo effect or iCloud effect as you put it), the less interested Apple becomes in the Mac.

At the moment there are only hints and indications (albeit big ones) but as far as I can deduce, one would be wise not to put too much stock into the Mac's future from a company that has claimed we are in the Post-PC era and that appliances are the way to go.

Rocketman
Jun 19, 2011, 01:44 PM
It should be noted that the LGA 2011 processors that the Mac Pros will use aren't scheduled for release until Q4, so Apple getting them 2 months early seems unlikely.Unless . . . they committed to prepay for enough units it soaks up 2 months of production. As has been the case several times in the past.

I wonder if the rack mount feature will be a BTO option. They have needed case options for a while now, a midsized tower popping to mind or a Mini with a layer of expandability.

The days of that being needed are numbered with the de-emphasis on local storage by Apple.

Rocketman

Lesser Evets
Jun 19, 2011, 01:44 PM
WOW nobody saw that coming. I'll tell you now there'll be a new MacBook with the launch of Lion as well. Please write an article about me.

Seriously. The guy jumped on an old bandwagon.

Blue Velvet
Jun 19, 2011, 01:44 PM
A graphic designer doesn't have much use for 12 cores, not even 4 cores for the most of the time.

Some of us like to rip stuff while they're working. ;) Cores aren't the only factor as I've pointed out.

Illustrator, Indesign, these tools don't require cores nor do they make use of them. Photoshop is the only software that makes use of extra cores, and it does make use of them only if you are applying a filter.

I'm working today and have about 20 apps open, one of them slowly rendering. Not just Illustrator and InDesign. I've already explained what the limitations of iMacs and Minis are.

I know graphic designer who use Photoshop only for retouching and cleaning photos up. That does not require any extra cores.

Some of us do a bit more than retouching and cleaning photos up. Please don't presume to tell me or the many professionals I work with what our computing needs are... and I won't do the same for you.

New Mac Pros (possibly). You can't spin it any other way than good news for those who want to buy a new one... with Thunderbolt.

RalfTheDog
Jun 19, 2011, 01:44 PM
You're probably right, thus at the same time it means there's no future in professional Macs, so we should all just be looking for an exit strategy.

Apple is indeed not interested in Macs. Rightly or wrongly.

Without professional Macs, what will people use to generate content for the iPad?

Not really, it was 17+ months between the current Mac Pro and the last model.

Someone needs to relearn to read. And count apparently. And not jump to conclusions. (seemingly based on wishful thinking)

http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/

511 days. Eat crow.

The delay was dictated by Apple waiting for the next Xenon.

If the new Mac Pros have the 10 core hyperthreaded Intel CPUs then I'll probably upgrade from my 2010 Mac Pro (40 logical cores FTW!).

If they just stick with 6 cores I'll probably just buy a few SSD drives to put in RAID0 in my current Mac Pro.

What really sucks is that I can buy a dual 12 core workstation right right now... If I didn't want to stick with Apple... hopefully Apple will give me a reason to vanquish those thoughts!

Just a question, are you speed constrained on your current hardware? What percentage of time do you spend waiting for your computer and what percentage of time does your computer spend waiting on you? (Perhaps your computer needs to upgrade to a faster user.)

Whenever it comes, I'm looking forward to a new gpu for my Mac Pro. I just hope one won't need Lion for it.

It would cost too much money to trouble shoot all the new drivers for Snow Leopard. The biggest cost of developing new hardware is writing the drivers. The biggest cost of new drivers is finding bugs.

EmbraceNext
Jun 19, 2011, 01:44 PM
I don't understand why people keep saying things about redesigning the MacPro case. I hope they don't. It is fantastic. I love the case and I hope it never changes.

wordoflife
Jun 19, 2011, 01:44 PM
WOW nobody saw that coming. I'll tell you now there'll be a new MacBook with the launch of Lion as well. Please write an article about me.

Haha +1

_________________________________

I guess Apple saw those benchmarks of the iMacs beating the Mac Pro and decided it was time to upgrade. :p

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 01:45 PM
Bull, bull and more bull.

You should stop basing your view of the world on tv ad's.

TV ads? I have basing my opinions on what I see around me. I know tons of design studios who solely work on iMacs, and haven't bought a Mac pro in the last 3 years or so.


So much for your minority theory. And I hardly think Apple would be refreshing Mac Pro's after only a year if your statement was even close to reality.

Minority theory? Do you know what a minority is? Mac Pro users are a very small minority of the entire Apple userbase, and you don't need to be working for Apple to know that. Just follow the revenues. Laptops are more than half Apple's revenue and has been since for a while now. And among desktops, iMacs again have much bigger revenue than Mac Pro, making Mac Pro a minority, a relatively small one even. But it's still profitable so they keep maintaining it. Minority does not equal dead. "Can't sell any" equals dead.

In the real-world over here, we buy a couple Mac Pro's every few months for designers, video editors, etc, etc. Nobody wants to work on a laptop or iMac. At first it sounds fun, but then you realize how bottle-necked you are. Suddenly everyone is fighting to *not* use an iMac or MacBook.

I thought we were talking about graphic designers, suddenly you mention video editors? I never said video editors can get away with a mac mini. I specifically said graphic designers. And it's irrelevant if nobody wants to work with a iMac or laptop. Just because people whine about it doesn't justify the extra cost to buy a Mac Pro.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 01:45 PM
Post PC era does not mean the PC is dead. It means that it's not the most important and central thing anymore.

I'm not sure it ever was. Perhaps you are thinking of TVs. :cool:

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 01:47 PM
Most people will see it off the Apple website, thus making it relevant. And because more people will see it off their website, one could make the argument that demoing it on a Mac Pro is irrelevant.

Also, this story (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/16/apple-has-a-poor-track-record-on-dot-zero-releases/) has a professional saying that it won't be for good for professional use at first because it will have so many issues since it is a total rewrite. Not to mention I have seen multiple other articles saying that the new version seems to be for more serious amateurs and not professionals. There was even one story on gizmodo that explained in detail why it will not be for professionals.

Just because the "audience" at the demo was "cream of the crop" doesn't mean they are the only ones who will use it hahahaha. And notice that I said "MAIN audience." I still think that there will be more people using it who do not work in Hollywood than people who do work in Hollywood. Learn to read, maybe get hooked on Phonics ;)

But of course no matter which way you want to see it, it has not even been released yet, so we can't say anything for sure.

If you actually listened to the story you linked, which I have, you'd see that all Larry Jordan said was the dot zero release wouldn't be ready for prime time use, which isn't surprising for a completely rewritten software. It doesn't say the software isn't for professional use. Maybe try get to understand what you are talking about first.

I'm not sure it ever was. Perhaps you are thinking of TVs. :cool:

Are we trolling now? PC's were the most important thing for software developers. Now they aren't.


Some of us do a bit more than retouching and cleaning photos up. Please don't presume to tell me or the many professionals I work with what our computing needs are... and I won't do the same for you.




Then some of you can buy a Mac Pro. I was talking about the needs of the industry in general. Not specific people with specific needs. Computers are not designed for individuals, they are designed for groups of individuals, big ones.

Xtremehkr
Jun 19, 2011, 01:53 PM
This probably won't be a very well received thing to say but I don't think that Apple are neglecting their Mac lineup. Even if the MacPro refresh cycle seems to be painfully slow.

The new iMacs are incredible machines, I'm very happy with my late 2009 iMac and the new iterations of the iMac are even better.

Given how fast the latest iMac is I have a feeling that these new MacPros are going to be incredibly fast.

Apple seems to be on the verge of releasing a slew of new Mac products that are all closely related and should have maximum impact when they are all available.

By that I mean the impending launch of Lion, the new software for editing and other stuff (not my field so I'm not terribly familiar with the Final Cut Pro stuff, etc), and the new MacPros all pretty much arriving together.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 01:54 PM
This probably won't be a very well received thing to say but I don't think that Apple are neglecting their Mac lineup. Even if the MacPro refresh cycle seems to be painfully slow.


Well the refresh cycle is only up to Intel, not Apple.

42streetsdown
Jun 19, 2011, 01:54 PM
Not really, Apple needs to spend money on designs and development to be competitive. That can mean new case designs, but it also means frequent upgrades. 6-8 month upgrades of the Pro machines would be far more appropriate than 17+ months. .. if Apple was serious about pro-users.

The same more or less happened to the XServe. It got less and less frequently upgraded, it lost the little popularity it had because of that and Apple axed it - without even offering any warning to those who relied upon it.

iMacs are no replacement for Mac Pros. Or a very un-serious one. Thus it doesn't deserve a serious answer.

internal hardware cycles aren't 6-8 months long! There wouldn't be components available to make upgrades. Plus, people aren't wanting to upgrade their machines that often. That'd be even more expensive for Pro users.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 01:57 PM
Some of us like to rip stuff while they're working. ;) Cores aren't the only factor as I've pointed out.



I'm working today and have about 20 apps open, one of them slowly rendering. Not just Illustrator and InDesign. I've already explained what the limitations of iMacs and Minis are.




A Mac Mini or an iMac can have as many apps open at the same time as a Mac Pro, as long as you install enough RAM. Because that's the only thing that effects application performance when other apps are open. Currently iMacs can get 16GB's of RAM, which is more than plenty for the majority.

Rendering uses cores, so if your job requires rendering on a regular basis on long intervals, obviously you are going to make use of a Mac Pro. But many graphic designers don't render a single thing in their lifetime. So why should they get a Mac Pro? I can understand an architect needing a Mac Pro, because they render a lot but an Illustrator operator, an Indesign operator? No.

racer1441
Jun 19, 2011, 01:58 PM
Where are the new macbooks?!

I need a nice new macbook!

RalfTheDog
Jun 19, 2011, 01:59 PM
Not according to this article.

"Need more horsepower? Just get another Mini and connect with Light Peak. Grand Central will automatically distribute the load across multiple devices. A 2U rack will hold eight Mac Minis that, tightly coupled, will run rings around an Xserve."

http://www.cringely.com/2011/02/attack-of-the-minis/

I can almost see that working for a server farm, not a workstation. The only problem for a render farm is, how many Thunderbolt ports does a Mini have? You would not want to hook up too many nodes to one port.

justinfreid
Jun 19, 2011, 01:59 PM
wirelessly posted (mozilla/5.0 (iphone; u; cpu iphone os 4_3_3 like mac os x; en-us) applewebkit/533.17.9 (khtml, like gecko) version/5.0.2 mobile/8j2 safari/6533.18.5)



how else would you see what you're doing?

VNC.

I need to add this line otherwise the forum makes the letters lowercase.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 01:59 PM
Are we trolling now? PC's were the most important thing for software developers. Now they aren't.

Not really, just pointing out how blatantly hyperbolic and meaningless your post was. Of course if we look at only PCs in relation to the iOS devices and their counterparts, we're far from the Post-PC era.

In no way, shape or form, are the iOS devices more important than the PCs of today. Are you trolling? One has to wonder. In fact my point was also half-serious, because like the TV, iOS devices are an appliance. More versatile than a TV, for sure, but an appliance non-the-less.

Apple is pushing some video too through the iOS devices, so the question of the importance of TVs regarding the future of iOS based devices is quite relevant. But your assessment of the current situation is quite out there.

No, we are not in the Post PC era, nor was 2005 the year of HD. All we have is Steve Jobs' word for it. Wishful thinking/marketing speak, I'm afraid.

Sixtafoua
Jun 19, 2011, 02:01 PM
I hope they change the case design of the Mac Pro. My 2003 PowerMac G5 has the same case. :eek:

sfwalter
Jun 19, 2011, 02:01 PM
Whatever they put in the mac mini will most definitely be under powered.

mattku07
Jun 19, 2011, 02:02 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/534.32 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8F190 Safari/6533.18.5)

At Best Buy right now with a MBP I bought last week. They are trying to decide if they should give me the best buy gift card or iTunes gift card. Pretty cool that they are honoring the promotion for me.

jamisonbaines
Jun 19, 2011, 02:02 PM
what exactly do you complainers expect? there is no purpose in updating without actual updates. a mac pro with a new case every other year isn't innovation and updates don't flow faster than the technology inside the machine. they can't release processors that don't exist.

ios gets more attention because it's a younger technology with more room for development.

Sacird
Jun 19, 2011, 02:02 PM
I love how the word "professional" gets thrown around here. I really do. :cool:

Blue Velvet
Jun 19, 2011, 02:02 PM
Then some of you can buy a Mac Pro. I was talking about the needs of the industry in general. Not specific people with specific needs. Computers are not designed for individuals, they are designed for groups of individuals, big ones.


Which is why Mac Pros are useful and offer tremendous value for money if you're not going to go the hackintosh route, because some of us like to customise their setups instead of using a sealed unit. Personally, I've never worked in a studio where they've used anything but Power Macs or Mac Pros with dual matte displays. Perhaps I'm lucky.

Anyway, I'll keep an occasional eye on this rumour/news. New cases would be nice, too. Hulking aluminium cheese-graters are getting a little old.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 02:04 PM
In no way, shape or form, are the iOS devices more important than the PCs of today. Are you trolling? One has to wonder.

More important to you, maybe not. But more important for software developers. Or at least as important. Again, context. I specifically said "for software developers".

If we were talking about their usage by general public, post PC devices are much more important than PC's. People can spend some time without their PC's, but not without their phones, and this has been so for a long time now.

mrwheet
Jun 19, 2011, 02:05 PM
I don't see anything strange about the possibility of new Mac Pros, but I would if they were anything but a minor maintenance upgrade. I would like to underscore with all seriousness, that the disinterest Apple is showing the Mac doesn't mean the Mac is dead or dying anytime soon.. but in 5 years, continuing this same trend, then we'll be looking at a non-pro Mac line and in another 5 years, all laptop-line of Macs, running iOS (which will certainly be far more capable then, than it is now)

Point being, it's a slow downward spiral, and as such there is full reason for Apple to rewrite FCP. The rewrite was started more than two years ago anyway, and back then the future of the Mac was far brighter than it is today.

The Mac may be a nuisance and perhaps a distraction from Steve Jobs' vision, but Apple will muddle through with this distraction for a few more years before starting the wind-down in earnest (i.e. stop the maintenance upgrades and cutting down development of desktop machines entirely)

Hopefully this won't happen - I'm a big big fan of the Mac and hope it lives at least as long in it's OS X incarnation as it lived in the System 1-9 incarnation.

Okay, about the iOS paranoia. It's not a "downward spiral." There would be no iOS without Mac OS X. Thus, iOS will always be a subset of OS X, even if they wind up rebranding them under a single name. But even in that case, iOS will then be "upgraded" to OS X, not the other way around. I never thought I'd be one of those laptop guys, who actually spends more time on the laptop than on the desktop, but I sort of became one. My Macbook Pro was outperforming my 2008 Mac Pro for a lot of jobs, so it's just kind of happened. If and when some future iPad outperforms my Macbook Pro, then maybe I'll slip into using that, but the WORK is fundamentally the same.

Think of it this way, 10 years ago no Mac tower could access as much RAM, HD, etc. as the current entry-level iMac. So, doing the same job, a current iMac would kick an older G4 tower's ass in every department. Which is to say that the definition of a "pro" machine has only EVER been a question of how much WORK you could do on it. If I can do all that work on a future iPad, then so be it. I can't see how it's possible, but that may just be a lack of imagination on my part. Obviously, things like having a proper keyboard and reasonable screen real estate are important for my work, but you get the idea.

I also want to point out that people talking about FCP X being "prosumer" are absolutely full of crap. It's a joke. There is no "prosumer" (whatever that means) user who would ever make use of all the features FCP X has implemented. People are just getting pissy because it looks kinda like iMovie. It's a joke. People around here are so sentimental. In all honesty, there's nothing more ugly and ridiculous than the average PC. They SHOULD go the way of the dinosaur. People bitching about leaving PCs behind are like people bitching about history phasing out those all-in-one, furniture cabinet "high-fi" systems from the '70s. Those things were truly, deeply fugly. And other than losing some massive piece of entirely useless furniture, home audio never looked back.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 02:05 PM
Which is why Mac Pros are useful and offer tremendous value for money if you're not going to go the hackintosh route, because some of us like to customise their setups instead of using a sealed unit. Personally, I've never worked in a studio where they've used anything but Power Macs or Mac Pros with dual matte displays. Perhaps I'm lucky.

Anyway, I'll keep an occasional eye on this rumour/news. New cases would be nice, too. Hulking aluminium cheese-graters are getting a little old.

Mac Pro's offer tremendous value for money for some people, not for every professional. That was the whole point I am making. They used to offer that value for a much bigger group, years ago, but not anymore.

RalfTheDog
Jun 19, 2011, 02:05 PM
Whatever they put in the mac mini will most definitely be under powered.

If it is under powerd, you are using it for the wrong thing. The Mac Mini, iMac and the Mac pro all serve different purposes. You can't run a large data center on an iPad. That does not make the iPad under powered.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 02:07 PM
No, we are not in the Post PC era, nor was 2005 the year of HD. All we have is Steve Jobs' word for it. Wishful thinking/marketing speak, I'm afraid.

Post PC era is not a term Jobs coined btw. It's just a SV term.

Matthew Yohe
Jun 19, 2011, 02:11 PM
Intel didn't help to develop TB. They solely developed it! Google something called Light Peak.

Well kindof...

"Developed by Intel (under the code name Light Peak), and brought to market with technical collaboration from Apple."

RalfTheDog
Jun 19, 2011, 02:12 PM
A Mac Mini or an iMac can have as many apps open at the same time as a Mac Pro, as long as you install enough RAM. Because that's the only thing that effects application performance when other apps are open. Currently iMacs can get 16GB's of RAM, which is more than plenty for the majority.

Rendering uses cores, so if your job requires rendering on a regular basis on long intervals, obviously you are going to make use of a Mac Pro. But many graphic designers don't render a single thing in their lifetime. So why should they get a Mac Pro? I can understand an architect needing a Mac Pro, because they render a lot but an Illustrator operator, an Indesign operator? No.

It's not all about cores. Sometimes it is about loads of mirrored fast storage. Sometimes it is about wall full of screens (and loosing your mouse pointer).

Sacird
Jun 19, 2011, 02:13 PM
Mac Pro's offer tremendous value for money for some people, not for every professional. That was the whole point I am making. They used to offer that value for a much bigger group, years ago, but not anymore.

They are nice machines, but I have seen the EXACT same specs (better video card as well) for $1,350. It was on sale though of course.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 02:16 PM
It's not all about cores. Sometimes it is about loads of mirrored fast storage. Sometimes it is about wall full of screens (and loosing your mouse pointer).

Mirrored fast storage will work with iMacs through TB in couple of months, also with Mac Mini if it gets a TB port.

Wall full of screens is about display size. And both iMac and Mac Mini support display resolutions up to 2560*1600, same as Mac Pro. If you need multiple displays, ok then Mac Pro is ideal.

edoates
Jun 19, 2011, 02:16 PM
You don't need Blu Ray Authoring to cut your full feature movie on your mac. There's something called transfer. :) And Bootcamp.
True but it's a cobbled together solution. Why should I have FCS + Windows 7 + a BR authoring solution? Why not just WIndows 7 + Vegas?

It's that simple. Steve J keeps saying things should be simple and elegant. Lion + Windows + FSC + Vegas is not either. So, I'll pick one.

Eddie O

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 02:16 PM
They are nice machines, but I have seen the EXACT same specs (better video card as well) for $1,350. It was on sale though of course.

Not for dual core ones you can't. The CPU's alone cost more than 2.5k.

True but it's a cobbled together solution. Why should I have FCS + Windows 7 + a BR authoring solution? Why not just WIndows 7 + Vegas?

It's that simple. Steve J keeps saying things should be simple and elegant. Lion + Windows + FSC + Vegas is not either. So, I'll pick one.

Eddie O

If you like Vegas over FCP, then why use a mac in the first place? If you are a editor and using a Mac, it's mostly because you want FCP, or you like AMC's mac port better than the win port. In any case you are doing it for the software, which doesn't immediately change because mac doesn't offer blu ray authoring.

I realize it's not ideal, and I wish macs had true blu ray authoring as well. But I wouldn't switch to win just because of that.

Ryth
Jun 19, 2011, 02:21 PM
We already have MacBook Pro/Airs and Minis

And none of those have upgradable Video Card or Audio Card slots.

Many of us want the power of a top of the line iMac or mid range Mac Pro in a Small Form Factor case that can be upgradable.

But many graphic designers don't render a single thing in their lifetime. So why should they get a Mac Pro? I can understand an architect needing a Mac Pro, because they render a lot but an Illustrator operator, an Indesign operator? No.

Exactly. Im what I consider a mid/upper level user. I do PSD/Illustrator/InDesign but also do AE/FCP/C4D but it's mid level stuff that I don't need a render farm for. It's 30 sec commercials and things like that.

I want a MacPro because I want to be able to upgrade the Video Card every few years. I cannot do that on the iMac but yet the power of the top of the line iMac would be exactly fine for me...and yet I can't upgrade the video card in an iMac and I don't need the monitor from the iMac.

flottenheimer
Jun 19, 2011, 02:26 PM
Is it just me, or Apple doesn't seem to care about the MacBooks anymore. Those Machines are stock with a Core Dual Processor. I like the MacBooks a lot, due to the way it looks, but like I said, seems like Apple doesn't care about them anymore!

I think the MacBook will be phased out. Why don't you just go for a 13" MacBook Pro or an Air ... I'm pretty sure you'll learn love them (they are, imho, more than worth the "upgrade"-price from the MacBook).

edoates
Jun 19, 2011, 02:28 PM
If you like Vegas over FCP, then why use a mac in the first place? If you are a editor and using a Mac, it's mostly because you want FCP, or you like AMC's mac port better than the win port. In any case you are doing it for the software, which doesn't immediately change because mac doesn't offer blu ray authoring.

I realize it's not ideal, and I wish macs had true blu ray authoring as well. But I wouldn't switch to win just because of that.

I don't like Vegas over FCS: but Vegas has some features I must have: high def blu ray authoring, and BR drives on Sony (and other) PCs built in and supported directly. I don't have to cobble together a solution.

If FCS + new Mac Pro offer BluRay authoring, I'll get it without question. Without it, since I need a new machine anyway (using a G5 Quad now ;-) and moving files to a friends PC for BR authoring - a pain), I'll look further afield than I would otherwise.

For Apple, it's about where to make money and I understand that (I'm a stock holder after all), and if BR costs more for them to develop than they'll get back, they should ignore it as they have done.

And I need to look for the best solution for my use. It may wind up being a cobbled together solution if I test drive Vegas for editing and don't like it. We'll see, won't we?


Eddie O

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 02:31 PM
Let's get this straight. An iMac differs from a Mac Pro on these areas:

Expandability in terms of PCI-E. (iMac doesn't have PCI-E, MBP's at least have one express card slot)

RAM amount (iMac maxed out at 16GB)

GPU speed and multiple displays (iMacs have slower GPU's if you are a gamer, but for most professionals, this is irrelevant. If your apps can make use of Open CL, then it'll matter but we haven't seen many examples of this yet. Multiple displays are an option for TB equipped iMacs, but then you can't use the TB port for other stuff)

Core amount (iMacs maxed out at 8 threads where Mac Pro's are at 24 threads)

And that's it.

It has more internal storage, but since TB and USB 3.0 have enough bandwidth, external storage runs as fast as internal storage now. Unless you are stripping 10 SSD's to get 3.5 GB/sec ofc, then you need this through PCI-E and TB won't be enough.


So unless you actually make use of one or the other, the internals of an iMac isn't any "slower" than the internals of a Mac Pro.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 02:33 PM
I don't like Vegas over FCS: but Vegas has some features I must have: high def blu ray authoring, and BR drives on Sony (and other) PCs built in and supported directly. I don't have to cobble together a solution.

If FCS + new Mac Pro offer BluRay authoring, I'll get it without question. Without it, since I need a new machine anyway (using a G5 Quad now ;-) and moving files to a friends PC for BR authoring - a pain), I'll look further afield than I would otherwise.

For Apple, it's about where to make money and I understand that (I'm a stock holder after all), and if BR costs more for them to develop than they'll get back, they should ignore it as they have done.

And I need to look for the best solution for my use. It may wind up being a cobbled together solution if I test drive Vegas for editing and don't like it. We'll see, won't we?


Eddie O

In your case I'd really use bootcamp. I have a blu ray drive in my 4 year old Mac Pro, it works with no issues on win. And keep using your favorite editor, and author blu rays. Bootcamp seems like an extra pain in the ass, but you don't author blu rays every 10 minutes, so rebooting won't be that often.

blairh
Jun 19, 2011, 02:45 PM
I really love my Mac Mini. I'm so happy Apple is keeping it up to date. For a while there it looked liked it would die from the lineup.

randomrazr
Jun 19, 2011, 02:48 PM
anything on those dam time capsules?

Bear
Jun 19, 2011, 02:49 PM
Not really, Apple needs to spend money on designs and development to be competitive. That can mean new case designs, but it also means frequent upgrades. 6-8 month upgrades of the Pro machines would be far more appropriate than 17+ months. .. if Apple was serious about pro-users.
...
Let's take your comment in two parts.

The first case design... The case design works. they have room inside to do updates as needed. A professional doesn't care if the outside of his new machine looks the same as the old machine. Heck in truth, that professional is relieved that he doesn't need to get new furniture to use a new computer.

And secondly update interval... I hate updates just so a company can say they did an update. Apple should do small silent updates that reflect disk capacity changes and pricing changes every 3 to 6 months as appropriate. Oh and if Intel releases a slightly faster processor, add that with the other minor changes. Apple can't release real changes faster than Intel gets them the new processors. And as someone that had to deal with hardware maintenance, I like the idea that I don't need to maintain more and more spares for constantly updated hardware. In some cases a spare is an identical system that you can pop the disks into and then get Apple to repair the broken system. (And then the repaired system becomes the spare. You can't do that if the machines vary too much due to office politics.)

Getting back to the rumor that started this thread... I could see Apple getting the processors for the Mac Pro about a month early from Intel. Remember an August announcement could mean September shipments for the Pro. And I can see Apple doing something to make the Pro rack friendly. So in this case some sort of case change could be in order.

tigress666
Jun 19, 2011, 02:49 PM
That's the current track record, Macs on maintenance upgrades (i.e. uninspired and minimal), but I for one always live in the hope that Apple wakes up from this iOS disaster (from the POV of a Mac user) and start treating the Macintosh like a tier one platform, worthy of all their attention.

Actually I'm just expecting minis and Mac Pros with T-bolts, and that's it. Nothing interesting, just maintenance. :cool:

You know, from the POV of a mac user, this iOS "disaster" is what has gotten Macs more popular which also means they get more software and more attention from developers.

I've heard so many stories of people switching cause they liked their little iOS device so this iOS "disaster" is doing a good job of marketing the Macintosh. I'm seeing a lot more macintoshes these days, including some from my college friends who used to make fun of my Mac. And even my mom who used to snub her nose at my Mac and was a windows person (she likes her iOS devices so much she says her next computer might just be a Mac).

And from some one who had Macs through when no one made software for it and the Mac almost went the way of the dodo, having good marketing is a good thing for a computer. I was so annoyed at Apple at the time for not being able to market well enough to keep the computer alive. It does not matter how good a product you have if you can't convince anyone to buy it.

So, yeah, as a Mac user and lover since the very first one and who was skeptical at first about Apple making something other than macintoshes, these ipods and iphones and iOS devices are actually good for the Mac. And as people pointed out, you gotta have a Mac to develop for the devices so they can't completely abandon the computer.

sbb155
Jun 19, 2011, 02:52 PM
There are still no Sandy Bridge CPUs suitable for Mac Pro. Unless Apple is looking for a significant change (drop DP models, basically a headless iMac), there is nothing to update.

yeah right, there are plenty of processors that arr available - the 3.2 hex for instance. saying there are no processors just isn;t correct...

Bear
Jun 19, 2011, 02:53 PM
I hope they change the case design of the Mac Pro. My 2003 PowerMac G5 has the same case. :eek:Why do you care so much about the case design? It works. Also if Apple changes the case, they have to change various processes to handle the changed case shape. Never mind the cost involved.

Also, what would you like the case to look like? Right now the Pro case still fits as a modern system.

JohnDoe98
Jun 19, 2011, 02:55 PM
I must have: high def blu ray authoring

Forgive my ignorance but why is authoring of optical media still needed nowadays? I know you mentioned earlier it is unacceptable to provide content online since the speeds are too slow or the quality will be too low. However, couldn't have simply distribute the media through usb drives rather than optical media?

cirus
Jun 19, 2011, 02:56 PM
Tons? Western Digital added USB 3.0 supported external disks couple months ago only.

There really can't be tons of USB 3.0 devices anyway because not everything that uses USB will benefit from USB 3.0.

Same reason that there won't be tons of TB devices.

Dude seriously, get up and look around.

Look at newegg, they have 150 external hardrives that use usb 3.0 out of a total of 500. Many of these 500 hardrives are old models and so the actual percentage of new harddrives using USB 3.0 is much higher than 150/500
http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=414&name=External-Hard-Drives

3.0 is backward compatable to 2.0 except it will run at 2.0 speeds. How many manufactures are willing to pay an extra 25 cents to say that their product runs 10x the speed? A lot.

Bear
Jun 19, 2011, 02:59 PM
yeah right, there are plenty of processors that arr available - the 3.2 hex for instance. saying there are no processors just isn;t correct...Can that 3.2 hex be used in a dual processor system? I did a quick look and it looks like the answer is no. That would make for either a split Pro line or a dropping of the 12 core systems. I think Apple is doing almost the right thing. They should've had some quiet updates for memory, graphics and disks.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 02:59 PM
Dude seriously, get up and look around.

Look at newegg, they have 150 external hardrives that use usb 3.0 out of a total of 500. Many of these 500 hardrives are old models and so the actual percentage of new harddrives using USB 3.0 is much higher than 150/500
http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=414&name=External-Hard-Drives

3.0 is backward compatable to 2.0 except it will run at 2.0 speeds. How many manufactures are willing to pay an extra 25 cents to say that their product runs 10x the speed? A lot.

150 devices are "tons"? I'd say USB 2.0 devices are "tons" but 150 is a few.

Many external drives continue using USB 2.0 because 3.0 doesn't add anything to the functionality. Not to mention USB isn't just a bus for external drives. There are literally tons of USB gadgets, which will never see an upgrade to USB 3.0.

strausd
Jun 19, 2011, 03:00 PM
If you actually listened to the story you linked, which I have, you'd see that all Larry Jordan said was the dot zero release wouldn't be ready for prime time use, which isn't surprising for a completely rewritten software. It doesn't say the software isn't for professional use. Maybe try get to understand what you are talking about first.


Maybe if you knew how to read you would have noticed I said "at first." And if you knew how to read and were to continue reading without it hurting your brain you would have also noticed that I go on to mention how multiple people think it won't be for the type of professional use as the current version is.

Maybe try reading first ;)

zephonic
Jun 19, 2011, 03:02 PM
I bought my iMac in 2007 because I thought by then it was powerful enough for most of my audio needs.

It is not. In fact, our old G5 acquitted itself much more efficiently of many tasks, God knows why.

My next machine is gonna have to be a MacPro or otherwise a Windows workstation.

I wish it was not so, but no matter how you spin it, an iMac (or laptop, ftm) falls a few inches short of being a substitute for a true workstation-class machine. I have learned that much.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 03:04 PM
Maybe if you knew how to read you would have noticed I said "at first." And if you knew how to read and were to continue reading without it hurting your brain you would have also noticed that I go on to mention how multiple people think it won't be for the type of professional use as the current version is.

Maybe try reading first ;)

It's irrelevant what "multiple people think". Especially considering none of those people actually saw or used the app in discussion. Maybe you should also check the article called "seventeen hundred jaws dropping", concerning FCP X.

I not only have read that article you linked, I also listened to the 1.5 hour broadcast, which is linked in the article. And there hasn't been a single indication in the Larry Jordan interview implying that Final Cut won't be a professional app.

Obi Wan Kenobi
Jun 19, 2011, 03:07 PM
Does this mean an updated MBA isn't due any time soon?

Keebler
Jun 19, 2011, 03:08 PM
Forgive my ignorance but why is authoring of optical media still needed nowadays? I know you mentioned earlier it is unacceptable to provide content online since the speeds are too slow or the quality will be too low. However, couldn't have simply distribute the media through usb drives rather than optical media?

There's a definite need for DVD / BRay. i transfer videos for ppl and they don't understand nor care about digital media. Most of my clients are +40 and while there are some who understand streaming or digital files, most just want discs. It's easy for them to put in their player and press play. They are light years from using digital streaming etc..

That said, there will be some who won't want discs, but that % is currently small imho. At least for what I do.

As for the original thread, I'm wondering what the price structure will be or should I say, I hope a 6 core or more is within my purchasing budget. I need some serious speed to crunch m2vs for DVDs.

Bear
Jun 19, 2011, 03:09 PM
Tons? Western Digital added USB 3.0 supported external disks couple months ago only.

There really can't be tons of USB 3.0 devices anyway because not everything that uses USB will benefit from USB 3.0.

Same reason that there won't be tons of TB devices.It doesn't matter how many USB 3.0 devices that are available. What matters is there are enough affordable ones. You can plug USB 2.0 and 1.1 devices into a USB 3.0 port on a system.

Heck if I was buying a new external disk, I'd look for a 3.0 one on the presumption I'd still be using it on my next system which should have USB 3.0.

The problem with Thunderbolt is that when it came out there were no devices available (other than minidisplay port cables) that could plug in to it. Not very useful as a port. Yes there will be devices soon, but guess what? I don't have a system that can take Thunderbolt devices. I'm back to looking at USB 3.0 devices until I get a new system and then I need to look at what systems I need compatibility with.

Yes Thunderbolt may be the better technology however there are two issues... compatibility with existing devices and Sony is talking about using USB connectors for Thunderbolt. That split is going to hurt Thunderbolt. Mind you the people who license USB don't want that to happen, so we'll have to see if they try to force Sony to do the right thing with Thunderbolt.

In summary USB 3.0 has many advantages from a marketing and compatibility standpoint. Thunderbolt has an uphill battle. FireWire was and is better than USB, yet FireWire is all but gone.

OllyW
Jun 19, 2011, 03:10 PM
Now there will be more computers with a TB port than actual TB enabled peripherals.

There are already more computers with Thunderbolt ports than actual Thunderbolt enabled peripherals seeing there are no actual Thunderbolt enabled peripherals available to buy. :D

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 03:10 PM
Forgive my ignorance but why is authoring of optical media still needed nowadays? I know you mentioned earlier it is unacceptable to provide content online since the speeds are too slow or the quality will be too low. However, couldn't have simply distribute the media through usb drives rather than optical media?

You can't. People have blu ray players at home, not USB players. The whole player technology needs to make a change for what you suggest. Not to mention pressing blu rays is cheaper than 50GB USB sticks. Flash drives are cheap only on low amounts of size, but 50GB flash isn't cheap at all.

42streetsdown
Jun 19, 2011, 03:12 PM
You know, from the POV of a mac user, this iOS "disaster" is what has gotten Macs more popular which also means they get more software and more attention from developers.

I've heard so many stories of people switching cause they liked their little iOS device so this iOS "disaster" is doing a good job of marketing the Macintosh. I'm seeing a lot more macintoshes these days, including some from my college friends who used to make fun of my Mac. And even my mom who used to snub her nose at my Mac and was a windows person (she likes her iOS devices so much she says her next computer might just be a Mac).

And from some one who had Macs through when no one made software for it and the Mac almost went the way of the dodo, having good marketing is a good thing for a computer. I was so annoyed at Apple at the time for not being able to market well enough to keep the computer alive. It does not matter how good a product you have if you can't convince anyone to buy it.

So, yeah, as a Mac user and lover since the very first one and who was skeptical at first about Apple making something other than macintoshes, these ipods and iphones and iOS devices are actually good for the Mac. And as people pointed out, you gotta have a Mac to develop for the devices so they can't completely abandon the computer.

I completely agree! iOS is good for that Mac platform. I understand the concerns of people that Apple will forget the Mac users, but in the end even if iOS devices are vastly more profitable than the Mac a Mac market will still exist.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 03:12 PM
It doesn't matter how many USB 3.0 devices that are available. What matters is there are enough affordable ones. You can plug USB 2.0 and 1.1 devices into a USB 3.0 port on a system.

Heck if I was buying a new external disk, I'd look for a 3.0 one on the presumption I'd still be using it on my next system which should have USB 3.0.

The problem with Thunderbolt is that when it came out there were no devices available (other than minidisplay port cables) that could plug in to it. Not very useful as a port. Yes there will be devices soon, but guess what? I don't have a system that can take Thunderbolt devices. I'm back to looking at USB 3.0 devices until I get a new system and then I need to look at what systems I need compatibility with.

Yes Thunderbolt may be the better technology however there are two issues... compatibility with existing devices and Sony is talking about using USB connectors for Thunderbolt. That split is going to hurt Thunderbolt. Mind you the people who license USB don't want that to happen, so we'll have to see if they try to force Sony to do the right thing with Thunderbolt.

In summary USB 3.0 has many advantages from a marketing and compatibility standpoint. Thunderbolt has an uphill battle. FireWire was and is better than USB, yet FireWire is all but gone.

I have been using eSata as my external drive connector for years, on my Mac Pro. And none of the external hard drives I own do have bandwidth faster than SATA II. USB 3.0 is faster than SATA II, and slower than SATA III, but I don't need anything faster than SATA II atm, so I don't care if my next external drive has USB 3.0. If it has for the same price I won't mind, but I won't pay for it. But if you are upgrading from USB 2.0, then surely USB 3.0 will bring a lot of throughput for external drives.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 03:20 PM
Does this mean an updated MBA isn't due any time soon?

I really don't think this effects MBA's at all. We'll see a new one very soon.

cirus
Jun 19, 2011, 03:21 PM
150 devices are "tons"? I'd say USB 2.0 devices are "tons" but 150 is a few.

Many external drives continue using USB 2.0 because 3.0 doesn't add anything to the functionality. Not to mention USB isn't just a bus for external drives. There are literally tons of USB gadgets, which will never see an upgrade to USB 3.0.

I'm talking about external hard drives ding-dong. Read the whole post and you won't put your foot in your mouth. 150 external hard drives out of 500 support USB 3.0. After USB 2.0 (264 USB 2.0 only), USB 3.0 is the second most popular interface (esata has around 70, some of these drives work with usb 2.0, some with firewire, etc.)

150 is not a few. 150/500 = 30% USB 3.0 That is a lot, if you exclude older drive (for the sake of simplicity, 320GB or less) the percentage is 35% (150/430).

Like I said, this is only going to go up. The benefits of having "high speed 10x as fast" outweigh the drawbacks of a fifty cent controller and interface.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 03:24 PM
I'm talking about external hard drives ding-dong. Read the whole post and you won't put your foot in your mouth. 150 external hard drives out of 500 support USB 3.0. After USB 2.0 (264 USB 2.0 only), USB 3.0 is the second most popular interface (esata has around 70, some of these drives work with usb 2.0, some with firewire, etc.)

150 is not a few. 150/500 = 30% USB 3.0 That is a lot, if you exclude older drive (for the sake of simplicity, 320GB or less) the percentage is 35% (150/430).

Like I said, this is only going to go up. The benefits of having "high speed 10x as fast" outweigh the drawbacks of a fifty cent controller and interface.
Maybe you were talking about hard drives, but the original post about the amount of USB 3.0 devices did not mention anything specific, and my reply was to that post. So maybe if you read you won't have to put your foot in your mouth.

That being said 150 out of 500 isn't a few, obviously.

derbothaus
Jun 19, 2011, 03:24 PM
Exactly.

15 years ago a professional needed the fastest and the brightest of Macs to do his work. Today a graphic designer can get away with a cheap iMac, or even Mac Mini if he wishes so.

People who need a Mac Pro are a minority now. And they will keep needing it so Mac Pro's will be made, but they will only be maintained like Apple has been doing lately.

More than anything Adobe is responsible for this shift. If their old code could scale appropriately like their own After Effects and Mathmatica you would see the gains of dual procs and designers would again get the Pro's. Right now clock and single thread execution keeps the consumer models right up there with the Xeon workstations in performance. The real market for Pro's are audio and video only atm.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 03:27 PM
More important to you, maybe not. But more important for software developers. Or at least as important. Again, context. I specifically said "for software developers".

If we were talking about their usage by general public, post PC devices are much more important than PC's. People can spend some time without their PC's, but not without their phones, and this has been so for a long time now.

I'm sure the pads and tablets are a fine source for revenue for developers, but so are PCs, not surprisingly - but that means that we're not in a "post-PC" world, we're in a world of tablets and PCs. Which is why the claim of "post-PC" is premature at best, though many futurists would like to claim otherwise.

Point being, it's a pointless effort to claim that we live now in a "post-PC" world, for we do not.

As for users spending time with their tablets, well that's why I asked whether you were perhaps thinking of "post-TV" era rather than the "post-PC" era, since until now the device most used and ubiquitous has been the TV, not the PC. The question seems to be; what device do people prefer to use to waste their time with?

There's a lot of money in diversion, I'm not putting that down - but tablets aren't replacing PCs, they are complementing them - if anything tablets and other iDevices are replacing TV/radio and cell-phones.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 03:31 PM
More than anything Adobe is responsible for this shift. If their old code could scale appropriately like their own After Effects and Mathmatica you would see the gains of dual procs and designers would again get the Pro's. Right now clock and single thread execution keeps the consumer models right up there with the Xeon workstations in performance. The real market for Pro's are audio and video only atm.

I don't think it's Adobe's code that is at fault. Using Illustrator, even a single core is basically enough to finish every operation instantly on a modern CPU. Desktop publishing hasn't really changed drastically so desktop publishing apps didn't change either. How many cores can you ever need to typeset a book?

derbothaus
Jun 19, 2011, 03:31 PM
They are nice machines, but I have seen the EXACT same specs (better video card as well) for $1,350. It was on sale though of course.

Um an X5670 is 1200.00 EACH on sale. A W3680 is, by itself, around $1000.00. I am assuming you are talking on the low end only. Also don't confuse Xeon with i7. Better binning and thermal headroom on the Xeons.

scottsjack
Jun 19, 2011, 03:33 PM
I bought my iMac in 2007 because I thought by then it was powerful enough for most of my audio needs.

It is not. In fact, our old G5 acquitted itself much more efficiently of many tasks, God knows why.

My next machine is gonna have to be a MacPro or otherwise a Windows workstation.

I wish it was not so, but no matter how you spin it, an iMac (or laptop, ftm) falls a few inches short of being a substitute for a true workstation-class machine. I have learned that much.

Exactly. I'm so happy that I bought a Mac Pro last fall. Sure, the 3.2 Quad processor that I could afford at the time is not as fast as the latest i7 iMacs. However the fact that I have my choice of monitor is more important than sheer speed. With three 2TB WD RE4 and two 2TB WD Caviar Black drives inside I can manage my large collect of photographys and movies with speed, comfort and a clean desk.

I also has Windows 7 installed on it so if Apple decides to get out of the real computer business I'm set. I would rather use Mac OS but W7 works really great for me. I use Photoshop CS5 for cross platform compatibility.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 03:35 PM
Okay, about the iOS paranoia. It's not a "downward spiral." There would be no iOS without Mac OS X.


They're the same thing, essentially. It's mostly a question of API support and interface. OS X being the more complicated and "inelegant" (from the POV of Steve Jobs) - iOS can, as you say, easily be upgraded to match better the features of OS X, but at the same time OS X can easily run any iOS app.

It's rather ridiculous to claim that this is paranoia, when it is in fact a rather obvious and in a sense elegant path to take - technologically very feasible - the only thing that stands in the way is user expectation.

iOS is moving from the bottom up, first on iPhone, then on a tablet and it stands to reason that one could soon get a MacBook Air with the iOS installed instead of the Mac OS (especially in light of Apple's desire to put the ARM CPU into the MBA)

The OS X machines that still exist when that happens can run iOS apps natively, distributed through the App Store. It's simple enough to work, simply because iOS and Mac OS X are, in fact, the same. Phasing out the Mac is a breeze, if user expectation is modified to the point that iOS apps become the standard.

Which is exactly what Apple would most dearly want. :cool:

Post PC era is not a term Jobs coined btw.

It's the term eaten up by a certain group of people with a certain mentality, at the very moment Jobs uttered it - he coined the term as much as he invented the GUI and the mouse.

i.e. it's completely irrelevant who the person was who actually said this first, it was Steve Jobs that made it annoying. :rolleyes:

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 03:38 PM
I'm sure the pads and tablets are a fine source for revenue for developers, but so are PCs, not surprisingly - but that means that we're not in a "post-PC" world, we're in a world of tablets and PCs. Which is why the claim of "post-PC" is premature at best, though many futurists would like to claim otherwise.

I am saying, again, that Post PC does not mean that PC is dead, it means that PC is not the single most important thing for software industry anymore.


Point being, it's a pointless effort to claim that we live now in a "post-PC" world, for we do not.

Yes we do, in my definition, we do not in yours. But my definition is what the industry understands from the term. Not yours. You'd have to be an idiot to claim that PC is literally dead in 2011.


As for users spending time with their tablets, well that's why I asked whether you were perhaps thinking of "post-TV" era rather than the "post-PC" era, since until now the device most used and ubiquitous has been the TV, not the PC. The question seems to be; what device do people prefer to use to waste their time with?

TV's are not computers so they really don't concern the folk in Silicon Valley, nor here, directly at least. But that's a different discussion, and to be honest I have no idea if the tablet is going to replace the TV as well. I don't see it happening soon, due to bandwidth restrictions of ISP's.


There's a lot of money in diversion, I'm not putting that down - but tablets aren't replacing PCs, they are complementing them - if anything tablets and other iDevices are replacing TV/radio and cell-phones.

They are replacing PC's. Last week my mother asked me to get a new computer for her, I asked her what do you do on your iMac, she said that she's using facebook and checking email and browsing web. Then I said that we'll get you an iPad since you aren't using anything on your iMac that can't be done on a tablet.

This is the crucial point people like you seem to miss. I have used PC's (macs I mean) all my life, and I have done tons of productive work with them. But when I look around, even my close proximity, my friends are simply checking email and browsing the web, on their PC's. And absolutely nothing else except some gaming. Gaming has shifted to consoles lately, and the rest can be done on tablets.

So for a big majority of PC users, tablets are literally going to replace their PC's. For us, tablets are never going to replace PC's. Or at least not in the next 15 years.

derbothaus
Jun 19, 2011, 03:38 PM
I don't think it's Adobe's code that is at fault. Using Illustrator, even a single core is basically enough to finish every operation instantly on a modern CPU. Desktop publishing hasn't really changed drastically so desktop publishing apps didn't change either. How many cores can you ever need to typeset a book?

No it is not enough. You must have very small files. It is not good enough and it stands in the way of making a 12-core machine seem appealing. Why spend extra if my SW wont use it, right?
It is not that the machines are neck in neck either (iMac vs. Mac Pro) it only appears that way because of limited SW interaction. Run Cinebench on a 12 core vs. a Quad and then tell me there is no difference. If you only see iTunes benches you don't see the whole picture.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 03:39 PM
It's the term eaten up by a certain group of people with a certain mentality, at the very moment Jobs uttered it - he coined the term as much as he invented the GUI and the mouse.

i.e. it's completely irrelevant who the person was who actually said this first, it was Steve Jobs that made it annoying. :rolleyes:

I have heard that term first from Bill Gates in 2008.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 03:40 PM
No it is not enough. You must have very small files. It is not good enough and it stands in the way of making a 12-core machine seem appealing. Why spend extra if my SW wont use it, right?
It is not that the machines are neck in neck either (iMac vs. Mac Pro) it only appears that way because of limited SW interaction. Run Cinebench on a 12 core vs. a Quad and then tell me there is no difference. If you only see iTunes benches you don't see the whole picture.

Who said the machines are neck to neck? Cinebench, Geekbench or any multi core testing app will reveal a big difference between an iMac and Mac Pro.

Give me an example where Illustrator actually makes you sit and wait after taking a command.

t0mbola
Jun 19, 2011, 03:43 PM
Hi guys.

I was just browsing Wikipedia and found this:


On September 22, 2009, during the Intel Developer Forum Fall 2009, Intel showed a 22 nm wafer and announced that chips with 22 nm technology would be available in the second half of 2011.
On September 15, 2010, Intel confirmed at IDF that 22 nm was on track for H2 2011


Does it mean that new Mac Minis could be getting 22nm Ivy Bridge CPUs? :confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/22_nanometer

SeaFox
Jun 19, 2011, 03:46 PM
Also, who is Brian Tong..? I guess MR has reasons to believe he's for real when his tweet is posted in the front page.
He is a CNET editor.
So he's an Internet "personality" who pretends he's a journalist then? :D

I'd trust Arn to give more accurate, in-depth tech information than those fluff-writers.

cirus
Jun 19, 2011, 03:46 PM
Dude seriously, get up and look around.

Look at newegg, they have 150 external hardrives that use usb 3.0 out of a total of 500. Many of these 500 hardrives are old models and so the actual percentage of new harddrives using USB 3.0 is much higher than 150/500
http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=414&name=External-Hard-Drives

3.0 is backward compatable to 2.0 except it will run at 2.0 speeds. How many manufactures are willing to pay an extra 25 cents to say that their product runs 10x the speed? A lot.

This is my original post. I did not edit it. I say, harddrives clearly and specify with external hardrives (a total of three times). You just put your other foot in your mouth which is getting kind of full. Plus the link (which you obviously did not click on goes to the hard drive page of newegg).

Maybe you were talking about hard drives, but the original post about the amount of USB 3.0 devices did not mention anything specific, and my reply was to that post. So maybe if you read you won't have to put your foot in your mouth.

That being said 150 out of 500 isn't a few, obviously.

derbothaus
Jun 19, 2011, 03:47 PM
Who said the machines are neck to neck? Cinebench, Geekbench or any multi core testing app will reveal a big difference between an iMac and Mac Pro.

Give me an example where Illustrator actually makes you sit and wait after taking a command.

Any open and save command can take upwards of 30 secs to 2 min depending. Lots of linked assets (.eps), no flattening. Very sticky, jittery scroll and drags with multiple point animations. Anemic GPU acceleration. The list goes on. It feels like it is about to give up and die at any moment. This is across hundreds of machines Mac Pro's to Macbooks. A 12-core machine acts exactly as a Dual core macbook. No faster. Adobe is most definitely at fault for the lack of gains.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 03:48 PM
This is my original post. I did not edit it. I say, harddrives clearly and specify with external hardrives (a total of three times). You just put your other foot in your mouth which is getting kind of full. Plus the link (which you obviously did not click on goes to the hard drive page of newegg).

That wasn't the post I replied to. In the post I replied to, the poster didn't mention any numbers and simply used the adjective "tons". So if this was your first post, then my first response on the matter wasn't at you.


Actually there are tons.

But I hope you're right.


This was the post my response was at. Anyway.

JohnDoe98
Jun 19, 2011, 03:48 PM
You can't. People have blu ray players at home, not USB players. The whole player technology needs to make a change for what you suggest. Not to mention pressing blu rays is cheaper than 50GB USB sticks. Flash drives are cheap only on low amounts of size, but 50GB flash isn't cheap at all.

I see your point regarding player technology. However, concerning usb flash prices, you can reuse them to minimize costs. Mail the usb and have it mailed back (the price of mailing an envelope with a usb enclosed that is constantly reused over time is cheaper than buying BR disks all the time and mailing them; the usb option, in the long run, turns out to be more eco friendly too).

The important point for Apple is they are forward looking. They realize optical media is on its way out. As flash drives become cheaper, and as internet connections become faster, there simply win't be a need for optical media. To implement BR this late would be a waste of resources.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 03:48 PM
Let's take your comment in two parts.

The first case design... The case design works. they have room inside to do updates as needed. A professional doesn't care if the outside of his new machine looks the same as the old machine. Heck in truth, that professional is relieved that he doesn't need to get new furniture to use a new computer.

And secondly update interval... I hate updates just so a company can say they did an update. Apple should do small silent updates that reflect disk capacity changes and pricing changes every 3 to 6 months as appropriate. Oh and if Intel releases a slightly faster processor, add that with the other minor changes. Apple can't release real changes faster than Intel gets them the new processors. And as someone that had to deal with hardware maintenance, I like the idea that I don't need to maintain more and more spares for constantly updated hardware. In some cases a spare is an identical system that you can pop the disks into and then get Apple to repair the broken system. (And then the repaired system becomes the spare. You can't do that if the machines vary too much due to office politics.)

Getting back to the rumor that started this thread... I could see Apple getting the processors for the Mac Pro about a month early from Intel. Remember an August announcement could mean September shipments for the Pro. And I can see Apple doing something to make the Pro rack friendly. So in this case some sort of case change could be in order.

I agree with most things you say, but then again you missed my point, so you're not actually arguing my point.

First: I said case design as an arbitrary example. Perhaps offer more than one case design, mini tower or something. Again: arbitrary and in fact I agree that the current case is just fine. It works.

Second, 511 days without upgrade (a small maintenance aside) is way too long. Apple could and perhaps should, now that Intel is serving their CPU/motherboard needs) simply offer Mac Pros BTO. No Mac is as generic as the Mac Pro thus no Mac is easier to engineer and customize.

My point is, that the model of offering upgrades that are big enough to deserve a press release is perhaps a model that is way outdated in the Mac Pro area. That was when Motorola/IBM were making custom internals for the Mac. Now, it should be much simpler, more predictable and more customizable.

I don't think I'm asking for the sky here, since Dell can manage to do more or less exactly that and for the same reasons. That would effectively make the upgrade intervals between Mac Pros zero days, because you could always order the Mac Pro with the latest motherboard and CPU.

macnisse
Jun 19, 2011, 03:51 PM
All new Mac pros with an all new design... will be very interesting should it be true! :)

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 03:51 PM
I see your point regarding player technology. However, concerning usb flash prices, you can reuse them to minimize costs. Mail the usb and have it mailed back (the price of mailing an envelope with a usb enclosed that is constantly reused over time is cheaper than buying BR disks all the time and mailing them; the usb option, in the long run, turns out to be more eco friendly too).

The important point for Apple is they are forward looking. They realize optical media is on its way out. As flash drives become cheaper, and as internet connections become faster, there simply win't be a need for optical media. To implement BR this late would be a waste of resources.

How would that work? Are you going to rent the movie or the player copies the USB into an internal HD?

I don't think optical media is on its way out. I think the next big thing after Blu Ray, in terms of home theater, will be again an optical media. But Apple is right about one thing. Optical media is best watched on a large screen TV anyway, not on a computer. So if you are only focusing on viewing media on computers, yes optical media is on its way out.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 03:52 PM
You know, from the POV of a mac user, this iOS "disaster" is what has gotten Macs more popular which also means they get more software and more attention from developers.

I've heard so many stories of people switching cause they liked their little iOS device so this iOS "disaster" is doing a good job of marketing the Macintosh. I'm seeing a lot more macintoshes these days, including some from my college friends who used to make fun of my Mac. And even my mom who used to snub her nose at my Mac and was a windows person (she likes her iOS devices so much she says her next computer might just be a Mac).

And from some one who had Macs through when no one made software for it and the Mac almost went the way of the dodo, having good marketing is a good thing for a computer. I was so annoyed at Apple at the time for not being able to market well enough to keep the computer alive. It does not matter how good a product you have if you can't convince anyone to buy it.

So, yeah, as a Mac user and lover since the very first one and who was skeptical at first about Apple making something other than macintoshes, these ipods and iphones and iOS devices are actually good for the Mac. And as people pointed out, you gotta have a Mac to develop for the devices so they can't completely abandon the computer.

For sure this has been good for the Mac, from a general POV, as you say: more software, more 3rd party support etc. But less Apple support. Which is no minor problem, IMO. But I'm quite happy with the increased popularity of the Mac. It just hasn't resulted in better Mac development - remember Macs aren't just the hardware (which is generally excellent, apart from lack of BD support and infrequent Mac Pro upgrades) but also software, i.e. the OS. And all iOS development has delivered to Mac users is an App store and Launchpad. Gestures perhaps.

I'm very very happy with the increased 3rd party support of the Mac. It's never been better, in fact. :cool:

Michael Scrip
Jun 19, 2011, 03:54 PM
That's because USB 3.0 has been out longer and has been given time for people to make stuff for it.

Every new thing like this needs time to grow, but I think TB will grow a little faster than USB 3.0 with Intels backing.

I dunno...

Let's assume every Windows PC has a USB 3.0 port from now on... and every Mac has a ThunderBolt port.

Which will grow faster?

Remember... one has 90% of the market...

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 03:54 PM
It's irrelevant what "multiple people think".

Is that a fact? And yet you've been claiming in no uncertain terms that "multiple people" think we're in a "post-PC" era. Great to have that settled then! :cool:

cirus
Jun 19, 2011, 03:55 PM
That wasn't the post I replied to. In the post I replied to, the poster didn't mention any numbers and simply used the adjective "tons". So if this was your first post, then my first response on the matter wasn't at you.





This was the post my response was at. Anyway.

Makes sense, but you quoted my posts so I thought you were talking to me and I did use numbers.

kazmac
Jun 19, 2011, 03:55 PM
I don't see anything strange about the possibility of new Mac Pros, but I would if they were anything but a minor maintenance upgrade. I would like to underscore with all seriousness, that the disinterest Apple is showing the Mac doesn't mean the Mac is dead or dying anytime soon.. but in 5 years, continuing this same trend, then we'll be looking at a non-pro Mac line and in another 5 years, all laptop-line of Macs, running iOS (which will certainly be far more capable then, than it is now)

Point being, it's a slow downward spiral, and as such there is full reason for Apple to rewrite FCP. The rewrite was started more than two years ago anyway, and back then the future of the Mac was far brighter than it is today.

The Mac may be a nuisance and perhaps a distraction from Steve Jobs' vision, but Apple will muddle through with this distraction for a few more years before starting the wind-down in earnest (i.e. stop the maintenance upgrades and cutting down development of desktop machines entirely)

Hopefully this won't happen - I'm a big big fan of the Mac and hope it lives at least as long in it's OS X incarnation as it lived in the System 1-9 incarnation.

I hope Steve and Apple do NOT see the Mac as a nuisance. I understand your comment and as a long time, finally fed up iMac owner, I want as many desktop Macs to survive as possible. There is a need for the Mac Pros for many design/video etc. professionals.

I may be returning to design after a four year absence. This 2010 iMac is NOT what I want as my design machine. Despite my attempts to portable, I can't and really don't want to (beyond an iPad).

I want the Mac Pro to continue...I've always held it in very high regard for it's power, flexibility and design.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 03:59 PM
Second, 511 days without upgrade (a small maintenance aside) is way too long.

Which happened once, and was again about Intel, not Apple.


Apple could and perhaps should, now that Intel is serving their CPU/motherboard needs) simply offer Mac Pros BTO. No Mac is as generic as the Mac Pro thus no Mac is easier to engineer and customize.

My point is, that the model of offering upgrades that are big enough to deserve a press release is perhaps a model that is way outdated in the Mac Pro area. That was when Motorola/IBM were making custom internals for the Mac. Now, it should be much simpler, more predictable and more customizable.

I think the Mac Pro is customizable enough. When you check Dell's workstation offerings, their customization isn't much different than Mac Pro. Their GPU options are more, obviously, but CPU, RAM and drive options are similar. Yes, Apple does not offer every single CPU Intel releases and they pick some of them, but I don't think that's bothering anyone.


I don't think I'm asking for the sky here, since Dell can manage to do more or less exactly that and for the same reasons. That would effectively make the upgrade intervals between Mac Pros zero days, because you could always order the Mac Pro with the latest motherboard and CPU.

You still can. The only workstation CPU faster than Apple's fastest offering right now is 12 core 3.33. Which Apple never implemented in the first place. So except that, anything you buy is on par with Apple's offerings.

And I don't see how that makes the upgrade interval between Mac Pro's "zero days". Intel doesn't release new CPU's every week anyway, so even if every single Mac Pro was BTO, what you buy today would be the same you could buy 10 months ago.

JohnDoe98
Jun 19, 2011, 03:59 PM
How would that work? Are you going to rent the movie or the player copies the USB into an internal HD?

I don't think optical media is on its way out. I think the next big thing after Blu Ray, in terms of home theater, will be again an optical media. But Apple is right about one thing. Optical media is best watched on a large screen TV anyway, not on a computer. So if you are only focusing on viewing media on computers, yes optical media is on its way out.

No one is buying a Mac Pro to rent movies. And the point about USB is if internet connections are too slow, then you can just use a USB to upload the film to a computer. From there it is pretty darn easy to stream it to a TV or to just watch it on the computer screen. So, to sum up, the idea is there are pretty simple alternatives for people to use if they want a Mac Pro. Having BR Authoring doesn't seem especially important.

anthony113
Jun 19, 2011, 04:00 PM
Can we have some real graphics card options? I want to see some nvidia options in addition to the regular ATI crap on the MacPro. GTX580 anyone?

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 04:02 PM
Is that a fact? And yet you've been claiming in no uncertain terms that "multiple people" think we're in a "post-PC" era. Great to have that settled then! :cool:

Read my post again, especially when those "multiple people" never saw or used the application in discussion.

Multiple people, meaning "more than one" people, did post about their "fears and guesses" about the new FCP X. That's the gist of it.

I never said "multiple people" think we're in a post PC era. It's a fact that we are in a post PC era. Look around and you see more computers than PC's in people's hands. That's not an opinion of someone that we are in a post PC era, we just are. Same as we were in a post automobile era when people invented airplanes. I'm not comparing tablets to airplanes, it was just an analogy.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 04:04 PM
No one is buying a Mac Pro to rent movies. And the point about USB is if internet connections are too slow, then you can just use a USB to upload the film to a computer. From there it is pretty darn easy to stream it to a TV or to just watch it on the computer screen. So, to sum up, the idea is there are pretty simple alternatives for people to use if they want a Mac Pro. Having BR Authoring doesn't seem especially important.

BR authoring is not about viewing the thing, it's about making a movie and releasing it on a blu ray. Authoring is required if you are working in the movie industry.

Bear
Jun 19, 2011, 04:06 PM
...
I don't think I'm asking for the sky here, since Dell can manage to do more or less exactly that and for the same reasons. That would effectively make the upgrade intervals between Mac Pros zero days, because you could always order the Mac Pro with the latest motherboard and CPU.And Dell has one heck of a support nightmare. And as I said there should be more incremental (silent) updates. But we'll only see big updates when Intel has chips for big updates.

Of course the issue with the small updates is how soon will the big update be and should I buy now or wait for the next big update? This indicates that silent updates more often than 3 to 6 months would just make things worse from multiple perspectives.

While I agree that Pros always want more power, most are not going to replace their machines every 3 to 6 months, so the silent updates would only help to entice people who are close to needing a new system anyway.

cirus
Jun 19, 2011, 04:06 PM
No one is buying a Mac Pro to rent movies. And the point about USB is if internet connections are too slow, then you can just use a USB to upload the film to a computer. From there it is pretty darn easy to stream it to a TV or to just watch it on the computer screen. So, to sum up, the idea is there are pretty simple alternatives for people to use if they want a Mac Pro. Having BR Authoring doesn't seem especially important.

Very true, yet it will not kill apple to add it. Regardless of whether most will need it, it should still be supported. And there is no excuse that itunes is still 720p and not 1080p (yes it will take longer to download so make it optional).

ctucci
Jun 19, 2011, 04:07 PM
I love how the word "professional" gets thrown around here. I really do. :cool:

Q: What do call the person graduating med school with a C minus?

A: Doctor.

Guess I'm saying if you get paid (and can live on that pay) for what you do on a Mac, you're a pro. But like the doctor analogy, it's up to the customer to choose the level of performance they seek.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 04:07 PM
Can we have some real graphics card options? I want to see some nvidia options in addition to the regular ATI crap on the MacPro. GTX580 anyone?

ATI Crap? 6870 is about 15% slower than GTX580.

And ATI drivers have been better on Mac than Nvidia, so slower ATI cards (on win side) have been performing better than faster Nvidia cards on mac. At least when gaming is concerned.

If you are concerned about CUDA, you are right. But then just get Quadro.

zephonic
Jun 19, 2011, 04:07 PM
I remember seeing an interview with Steve Jobs last year (I think it was with Mossberg, but not sure) and the two things I clearly remember from that are

"A century ago, America was essentially an agrigultural nation and 9 out of 10 vehicles were trucks. As urbanization spread, we moved to vehicles more suitable to those conditions. That does not mean that the truck became obsolete, it's still here. But it is a much smaller portion of the market. Desktop PC's are like those trucks. They're not gonna go away, but the majority of people will no longer need them."

and

"What we have learned is to price things aggressively and go for volume. That has really worked well for Apple in the recent past."

Both those statements are nothing to make me optimistic concerning the future of the MacPro.

disclaimer: those are not the exact words, but as close as I can remember.

FroMann
Jun 19, 2011, 04:07 PM
Hopefully the Minis get cheaper. They were originally meant to be an affordable Mac, but ended up getting more expensive over the years.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 04:08 PM
Very true, yet it will not kill apple to add it. Regardless of whether most will need it, it should still be supported. And there is no excuse that itunes is still 720p and not 1080p (yes it will take longer to download so make it optional).

Amazon Video On Demand is 720p as well. So industry standard is still 720p. I don't know if that's only up to Apple or the movie studios.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 04:09 PM
I am saying, again, that Post PC does not mean that PC is dead, it means that PC is not the single most important thing for software industry anymore.


Post-PC means "after-PC", as in after PCs are gone and done with. PCs and tablets co-existing (like they are) can't possibly mean "post-PC".

Consoles are and were at least as important as tablets are today, if not more, yet that didn't make a "post-PC" world. Perhaps you're just using the term wrong.

I'm not defining it any particular way, I just understand what the words mean in "post-PC" device. Perhaps you think it is some sort of mail-order PC? It has a very obvious definition, and I did in fact listen to the Steve when he was explaining this term and stooped so low as to use car analogies (like we stopped doing in the 90s because they were stupid)

I agree that one would have to be an idiot to claim that PCs are dead in 2011, but then, that's what the term "post-PC" indicates. That PCs are for all intents and purposes yesterday's news, they are the steamboats, the blimps and the telegraph of today.

Funny thing that your mother was advised by yourself (a big believer in the iDevices apparently) to buy an iPad. A shocker, just as much a shocker as it would be for you to know that I would have advised my own mother to buy an iMac. The way I see it, you just limited your mother to her current computer options, for indeed she can do the most basic things on an iPad, but if she ever wanted to do something else - such as use a computer to design weaving patterns - she's SOL.

Giving people tools that only cater to the lowest common denominator isn't what I call good advice. If they know exactly about the limitations of the device and accept it, because they can get to a PC should they need one, then fine. That's my advice. Stick to what gives the best options in case things change, because they do. But heck, it's your mother.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 04:10 PM
I remember seeing an interview with Steve Jobs last year (I think it was with Mossberg, but not sure) and the two things I clearly remember from that are


and


Both those statements are nothing to make me optimistic concerning the future of the MacPro.

disclaimer: those are not the exact words, but as close as I can remember.

Those statements are correct and they mean that the Mac Pro isn't going anywhere. How is that not optimistic?

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 04:16 PM
How would that work? Are you going to rent the movie or the player copies the USB into an internal HD?

I don't think optical media is on its way out. I think the next big thing after Blu Ray, in terms of home theater, will be again an optical media. But Apple is right about one thing. Optical media is best watched on a large screen TV anyway, not on a computer. So if you are only focusing on viewing media on computers, yes optical media is on its way out.

You know, I almost agree with you there, but then you tow the Apple line all of a sudden to the end. I'm using this fine 27" HD+ iMac and it is capable of displaying higher resolution than BD offers and I would maintain it has quite a large screen. Even the smallest MacBookAir has 1366 by 768 native resolution, some 30% higher resolution than a DVD.

A downsampled BD is much sharper and better than an upsampled DVD any time. And my iMac has quite a large monitor.

Large enough for BD movies. So yeah I agree with you, but then I completely disagree that BD is somehow "bad" or not good enough or even not completely fantastic on a computer like the 27" iMac! To each his own I guess, but I think it is a waste that the iMac doesn't support BD playback.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 04:17 PM
Post-PC means "after-PC", as in after PCs are gone and done with. PCs and tablets co-existing (like they are) can't possibly mean "post-PC".


Consoles are and were at least as important as tablets are today, if not more, yet that didn't make a "post-PC" world. Perhaps you're just using the term wrong.

Because consoles did not browse web, or check email. Consoles did not replace PC, tablets do. There's a huge difference.



Funny thing that your mother was advised by yourself (a big believer in the iDevices apparently) to buy an iPad. A shocker, just as much a shocker as it would be for you to know that I would have advised my own mother to buy an iMac. The way I see it, you just limited your mother to her current computer options, for indeed she can do the most basic things on an iPad, but if she ever wanted to do something else - such as use a computer to design weaving patterns - she's SOL.

I'm not a believer in iDevices. I'd never buy an iPad, I hate those things. They are not for me, but seeing my mother hasn't done a single "productive" thing on that iMac, which has been sitting in the house since 2004, I don't see her suddenly taking up designing weaving patterns next month. And remember, I asked her what she does, I didn't decide it myself.


Giving people tools that only cater to the lowest common denominator isn't what I call good advice. If they know exactly about the limitations of the device and accept it, because they can get to a PC should they need one, then fine. That's my advice. Stick to what gives the best options in case things change, because they do. But heck, it's your mother.

Obviously she knows the limitations of the tablet devices, I explained that to her many times. When she first saw the iPad and wanted one, I told her "that's not a computer, you wouldn't like it", but after discussing with her several times and understanding that all she does can be done on an iPad, why bother buying a full fledged computer? It's more expensive, and also harder to use than an iPad.

Best options don't necessarily come with bigger packages. You need to realize that PC's are much harder to use than tablets. So someone like my mother, actually, could do more with a tablet, than she does with a PC. That's the whole idea behind the "post PC". If you listened to that Gates/Jobs interview, they said over and over that PC's are not as easy to use as they want them to be. They really aren't. Just look around yourself and see what most people do with their PC's and tell me that all that can't be done on a tablet. And obviously I don't mean professionals, which are a very small group compared to the total PC users.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 04:18 PM
I hope Steve and Apple do NOT see the Mac as a nuisance. I understand your comment and as a long time, finally fed up iMac owner, I want as many desktop Macs to survive as possible. There is a need for the Mac Pros for many design/video etc. professionals.

I may be returning to design after a four year absence. This 2010 iMac is NOT what I want as my design machine. Despite my attempts to portable, I can't and really don't want to (beyond an iPad).

I want the Mac Pro to continue...I've always held it in very high regard for it's power, flexibility and design.

Amen! Completely agreed. Completely. :cool:

cirus
Jun 19, 2011, 04:20 PM
Amazon Video On Demand is 720p as well. So industry standard is still 720p. I don't know if that's only up to Apple or the movie studios.

Very true, but blu ray has been gaining more and more ground. Amazon also sells blu ray movies. The feature "unbox" allows users to download a full defination film (works only with windows).

This is mainly because of slow download times. These slow download times will be what keeps physical media around.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 04:20 PM
You know, I almost agree with you there, but then you tow the Apple line all of a sudden to the end. I'm using this fine 27" HD+ iMac and it is capable of displaying higher resolution than BD offers and I would maintain it has quite a large screen. Even the smallest MacBookAir has 1366 by 768 native resolution, some 30% higher resolution than a DVD.

A downsampled BD is much sharper and better than an upsampled DVD any time. And my iMac has quite a large monitor.

Large enough for BD movies. So yeah I agree with you, but then I completely disagree that BD is somehow "bad" or not good enough or even not completely fantastic on a computer like the 27" iMac! To each his own I guess, but I think it is a waste that the iMac doesn't support BD playback.

Yes, but a 27" doesn't even compare to actual home theater offerings, which basically start around 50".

Trust me, I'd love if my Mac Pro could do BR, but I'm not gonna cry my eyes out because it doesn't. I agree that they look fantastic on my 30" Cinema display, but still that's not why Blu Rays are pressed for. Soon we'll have 1080p digital downloads, and then hopefully we can put this whole BR nightmare behind us.

mdriftmeyer
Jun 19, 2011, 04:21 PM
Do not buy? Wait until late July or early August?

Wake me up when this author has a lawsuit pending.

mdriftmeyer
Jun 19, 2011, 04:22 PM
ATI Crap? 6870 is about 15% slower than GTX580.

And ATI drivers have been better on Mac than Nvidia, so slower ATI cards (on win side) have been performing better than faster Nvidia cards on mac. At least when gaming is concerned.

If you are concerned about CUDA, you are right. But then just get Quadro.

You don't develop with CUDA on the platform that gave you OpenCL and also when the AMD Platform has gone all in on OpenCL.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 04:23 PM
Which happened once, and was again about Intel, not Apple.


Of course it wasn't. Wintels saw nice improvements in those 511 days while Mac Pros saw only the one CPU addition, which was not a necessary situation and not the fault of Intel. There's more to a computer than the CPU of course, the motherboard and the GPU for instance.

You've claimed that iMacs can replace Mac Pros before in this thread, which shows that you're pretty good at reading superficial MHz stats and don't really understand why people would pay premium for a Mac Pro. It's that much more powerful. Worth every cent.

mac9000
Jun 19, 2011, 04:23 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)



How else would you see what you're doing?

VNC for the win :D
I have a Mac Mini Server that I just VNC to, it has no mouse, screen, or keyboard.

tech3475
Jun 19, 2011, 04:25 PM
I wonder how much the minis will be this time considering they're already quite expensive (at least in the uk)?

mac9000
Jun 19, 2011, 04:26 PM
Hopefully the Minis get cheaper. They were originally meant to be an affordable Mac, but ended up getting more expensive over the years.

I wish there was a Mini with 3.5" hard drives and faster specs available. I want a tower, but I want it to have the power of an iMac. The Mac Pro is too expensive for me :(
And yeah, what happened to the $500 Minis? They need to be more flexible overall with a $500 to $1500 range.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 04:26 PM
Read my post again, especially when those "multiple people" never saw or used the application in discussion.

Multiple people, meaning "more than one" people, did post about their "fears and guesses" about the new FCP X. That's the gist of it.

I never said "multiple people" think we're in a post PC era. It's a fact that we are in a post PC era. Look around and you see more computers than PC's in people's hands. That's not an opinion of someone that we are in a post PC era, we just are. Same as we were in a post automobile era when people invented airplanes. I'm not comparing tablets to airplanes, it was just an analogy.

So anecdotally from your personal experience, we're living in a "post-PC" era (defined in some quite arbitrary way, meaning tablets co-exist with PCs and are now very important to developers)

Great. Thanks, now I'm convinced, because some guy on the intarwebs told me so. Are the same intarwebs powered by iOS? Anything designed on iOS, programmed and compiled on iOS?

I did see the waiter at one of the cafés here use an iPad to jot down the order. Clearly I was in a Post-PC era! :p

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 04:27 PM
Very true, but blu ray has been gaining more and more ground. Amazon also sells blu ray movies. The feature "unbox" allows users to download a full defination film (works only with windows).

This is mainly because of slow download times. These slow download times will be what keeps physical media around.

And they will keep physical media around for quite some time. Because if you think 50GB is too much (standard for BR), then you'll be shocked when they come up with the next home theater standard, which will be either 2K or 4K, and will probably be around 200-300GB per movie.

Bandwidth is not improving as fast as we'd like to. But when they do come up with 2K or 4K releases, a computer screen will be the last thing you'd want to view that.

4K resolution on a computer screen is basically impossible. After 130-140 ppi, the screen becomes "supra retina", so you can't see the added pixels anyway. So you'll still be watching a 1.5K picture even if the display is viewing a 4K one.

So to watch a 4K movie, people would either have to buy ultra large TV's, or projectors. It wouldn't make sense at all on a computer.

mac9000
Jun 19, 2011, 04:28 PM
I wonder how much the minis will be this time considering they're already quite expensive (at least in the uk)?

I got a Mini off eBay right after the new one came out. It was half-price, and the new ones had the same specs per $ ratio as the old ones but with a better design. I don't care about the design because I stuck the Mini in the basement since it's a server that I VNC to.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 04:29 PM
So anecdotally from your personal experience, we're living in a "post-PC" era (defined in some quite arbitrary way, meaning tablets co-exist with PCs and are now very important to developers)

Great. Thanks, now I'm convinced, because some guy on the intarwebs told me so. Are the same intarwebs powered by iOS? Anything designed on iOS, programmed and compiled on iOS?

I did see the waiter at one of the cafés here use an iPad to jot down the order. Clearly I was in a Post-PC era! :p

And there were no anecdotal in my post. You just look at statistics, sales, usage percentage and you can see that these toys are gaining tremendous marketshare.

Don't forget, phones are Post PC devices as well. Not just tablets. So basically most people around you already own a Post PC device.

Also, I didn't coin the term, I have heard it from multiple Silicon Valley CEO's, and it makes sense to call this era Post PC, in terms of software development, because the revenue just is too big, as big as PC development. And, yes, these devices are going to replace PC's for the majority of PC users, that's also not an opinion.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 04:29 PM
And Dell has one heck of a support nightmare. And as I said there should be more incremental (silent) updates. But we'll only see big updates when Intel has chips for big updates.

Of course the issue with the small updates is how soon will the big update be and should I buy now or wait for the next big update? This indicates that silent updates more often than 3 to 6 months would just make things worse from multiple perspectives.

While I agree that Pros always want more power, most are not going to replace their machines every 3 to 6 months, so the silent updates would only help to entice people who are close to needing a new system anyway.

I think we agree in fact completely. Just update the Mac Pro silently and add the features (BTO if needed) that pros find useful. Use the advantage of being supplied by Intel and provide the best workstations; Mac Pros. :)

Bear
Jun 19, 2011, 04:31 PM
Of course it wasn't. Wintels saw nice improvements in those 511 days while Mac Pros saw only the one CPU addition, which was not a necessary situation and not the fault of Intel. There's more to a computer than the CPU of course, the motherboard and the GPU for instance.A properly designed motherboard doesn't need to updated until there's a processor updated really as that is also usually when the support chipset is also updated. as for the GPU, since this is on a plug in card, Apple could update the BTO stuff for the Mac Pro to include the new cards every few months. This would of course mostly appease the people who use Pros for work and also game on them.
You've claimed that iMacs can replace Mac Pros before in this thread, which shows that you're pretty good at reading superficial MHz stats and don't really understand why people would pay premium for a Mac Pro. It's that much more powerful. Worth every cent.And of course not all MHz's are created equal. I agree with you about the reasons for getting a Mac Pro. However, for some applications, some people can go to an iMac and get a nice boost. Yes, there are still reasons for getting a Pro.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 04:32 PM
You don't develop with CUDA on the platform that gave you OpenCL and also when the AMD Platform has gone all in on OpenCL.

Then why would you need Nvidia anyway? Since when Open CL is concerned ATI will offer the same support as Nvidia does.

JohnDoe98
Jun 19, 2011, 04:34 PM
BR authoring is not about viewing the thing, it's about making a movie and releasing it on a blu ray. Authoring is required if you are working in the movie industry.

Why do you release something? To be viewed presumably... But, as i have said, the viewing point is not the issue. It is about sharing the movie amongst people in the movie industry amobgst themselves. Now, you are right to say Authoring is required by people who work in that industry. My question all along has been why? Is that industry simply using old tech when there are better alernatives? And remember, if you choose to answer, this isn't about the viewing. Those industry workers, who are buying Mac Pro equivalents on Windows can afford the cheap devices that lets you stream computer files to a TV or big screen fo viewing. So the question is why are they so intent on sharing the files via BR Disks?

Kar98
Jun 19, 2011, 04:35 PM
That all depends on what kind of etc you own, and whether it has the right connectors.



There's even an acronym for that now? Wow.

"Now"? http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=BYODKM

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 04:37 PM
Of course it wasn't. Wintels saw nice improvements in those 511 days while Mac Pros saw only the one CPU addition, which was not a necessary situation and not the fault of Intel. There's more to a computer than the CPU of course, the motherboard and the GPU for instance.

You can't really change the motherboard and gain anything unless the CPU takes advantage of the new board. The RAM speed is also bound to the motherboard so changing that doesn't make sense anyway. So RAM, board and CPU basically come together, and Intel offers them that way anyway.

The only thing you could change during those 511 days were the hard drives, and adding SATA III.


You've claimed that iMacs can replace Mac Pros before in this thread, which shows that you're pretty good at reading superficial MHz stats and don't really understand why people would pay premium for a Mac Pro. It's that much more powerful. Worth every cent.

Worth every cent if you actually use the extra power. You seem to have a habit of misreading and not spending time to understand what's written. I don't usually re type stuff, but for you, I have to. iMacs already did replace Mac Pro's on many professional design studios. Not every professional uses Mac Pro anymore. But 15 years ago, if you were doing professional work, you just couldn't get it done on the slow macs, people bought the most expensive ones, always. But today, not every professional needs to do it. Some still do, and they do buy Mac Pro's, I'm one of them. I still do need Mac Pro, but I know many others who don't, not anymore.

JohnDoe98
Jun 19, 2011, 04:37 PM
Very true, yet it will not kill apple to add it. Regardless of whether most will need it, it should still be supported. And there is no excuse that itunes is still 720p and not 1080p (yes it will take longer to download so make it optional).

Would it kill Apple to include flash? Of course not. But that is not the point. Their point is they want industries, like newspapers etc., to move forward and adopt future technology to make things better. Including flash or BR forestalls progress and Apple will have none if it. What people in their respectives industries need to do is to start taking alternative measures when they are available.

Concerning making 1080p available on itunes as an option, incidently, I agree with you, but that is a long way from addrssing what is needed in a Mac Pro refresh.

Bear
Jun 19, 2011, 04:38 PM
As for the people asking for a BluRay drive in the system.
This would make sense, it's meant for people doing video editing after all.
It would be nice ot be able to burn backups and archives of large projects on BluRay recordable discs. One BluRay recordable or 10 DVD-R's? Which would you rather deal with.
The backup/archiving even applies to photgraphers as the profession digital cameras make higher and higher resolution images, the more space you need to deal with the images.
Why should the Mac be the only brand of computer without a BluRay drive option?


Note: I do realize burnt optical disks have a lifespan question. But so do regular hard drives. And most professionals would make at least 2 copies of the permanent archive for a project.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 04:39 PM
Why do you release something? To be viewed presumably... But, as i have said, the viewing point is not the issue. It is about sharing the movie amongst people in the movie industry amobgst themselves. Now, you are right to say Authoring is required by people who work in that industry. My question all along has been why? Is that industry simply using old tech when there are better alernatives? And remember, if you choose to answer, this isn't about the viewing. Those industry workers, who are buying Mac Pro equivalents on Windows can afford the cheap devices that lets you stream computer files to a TV or big screen fo viewing. So the question is why are they so intent on sharing the files via BR Disks?

There are no better alternatives. BR is still the single highest definition media release format there is.

I already told you that you can't distribute films on USB sticks, due to price. And no, renting the USB stick and then sending is back in never a good solution. So that means basically to buy a movie, you have to go to the post office to send the thing back? Who would spend time on such a thing?

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 04:40 PM
As for the people asking for a BluRay drive in the system.
This would make sense, it's meant for people doing video editing after all.
It would be nice ot be able to burn backups and archives of large projects on BluRay recordable discs. One BluRay recordable or 10 DVD-R's? Which would you rather deal with.
The backup/archiving even applies to photgraphers as the profession digital cameras make higher and higher resolution images, the more space you need to deal with the images.
Why should the Mac be the only brand of computer without a BluRay drive option?


Note: I do realize burnt optical disks have a lifespan question. But so do regular hard drives. And most professionals would make at least 2 copies of the permanent archive for a project.

You can do BR backups right now, just buy a 50$ Blu Ray rom on your Mac Pro. Toast supports burning BR. So you always have that option. You just don't have it directly from Apple. But that's what the Mac Pro is for, so you can expand it yourself with 3rd party stuff.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 04:41 PM
Because consoles did not browse web, or check email. Consoles did not replace PC, tablets do. There's a huge difference.

Best options don't necessarily come with bigger packages. You need to realize that PC's are much harder to use than tablets.

I do believe that the consoles of today (predating the iOS) can browse the web and check email, they can even play BDs! Perhaps you never entered into the discussion a decade or decade and a half ago, but then consoles *were* going to replace PCs - it was a done deal - according to many many enthusiasts.

It never happened (obviously) but consoles were among other things, simpler to use and cheaper than computers.

For years people have been able to receive email and to an extent browse the internet on their cell phones and that didn't create a "post-PC" era. It wasn't even when Bill Gates (according to you) coined the phrase. No, it was when Steve Jobs claimed it and many many people believed him.

I could have mentioned that in 2006 I saw far more people spending time on their cell phones than ever on their computers, yet I wasn't convinced that we were in a "post-PC" era than any more than now.

Also while you are of course correct that iOS devices are easier to use than PCs, we both know they are way more limited. That limitation is in no small part what makes them simple to use.

So while they are limited and easy to use they are appealing as such, but when they get more features and more power, one has to consider a normal PC as a better choice. Thus the tablets (at least according to Apple) have to be simple and easy to use - and limited.

But when you have a more capable tablet, one that rivals the Mac OS in features, then why a tablet .. and is there then any particular difference between a tablet and a PC? Look at what MS is offering in Windows 8, where they are going to blur the line completely between a tablet and a PC, by offering the very same OS on both.

Sure tablets are and will be convenient devices, but essentially they're just very portable PCs with a touch-screen. That's all the magic. ;)

Bear
Jun 19, 2011, 04:43 PM
Would it kill Apple to include flash? Of course not. But that is not the point.
...Kill them? No. However, including flash means that flash bugs also get marked against the OS X distribution since it shipped with flash.

It so easy to download flash anyway, it shouldn't even be an issue that Apple doesn't include it with the OS X distribution.

Azathoth
Jun 19, 2011, 04:44 PM
Post-PC era. [snip] The MacBook Air already resembles more of an iOS device than a traditional "computer", or even a traditional notebook.

??? What MBA models are *you* talking about?

The MBA runs a full OS (SL) with root access, ability to run other OSes (via bootcamp), full keyboard, monitor, trackpad, USB ports that have full host capability, etc. That's a full computer if I ever saw one (and I'm grateful that it still is!), and definitely a notebook.

Conceptualy pretty similar to my 15 year old Compaq Contura Aero, which only had an internal HDD, no floppy or CDROM and was meant as a low power ultraportable.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 04:48 PM
Yes, but a 27" doesn't even compare to actual home theater offerings, which basically start around 50".

Trust me, I'd love if my Mac Pro could do BR, but I'm not gonna cry my eyes out because it doesn't. I agree that they look fantastic on my 30" Cinema display, but still that's not why Blu Rays are pressed for. Soon we'll have 1080p digital downloads, and then hopefully we can put this whole BR nightmare behind us.

A 30" CinemaDisplay is more than enough to enjoy every single pixel of a BD - and to be quite frank, I've yet to see anything bigger than a 42" TV in a home here and it's just as fine as my iMac (because I sit closer to the iMac)

In fact it seems to be some sort of a misunderstanding that BD must be on a huge monitor to be enjoyed. It's still just a movie and the monitor is quite capable of showing every pixel - even if it wasn't it would still show more pixels than a DVD.

Furthermore, there's nothing interesting about 720p or even 1080p streaming movies, especially on a computer with this good monitor - let alone on a 50" TV, since the bitrate is pathetic on those video-streams compared to BD.

Resolution is merely half the story. A high bitrate 720p is far better than a low bitrate 1080p video and quite frankly, considering how anemic and slow the upgrade of the internet infrastructure is - the "BD nightmare" (which is quite sweet dream actually!) is going nowhere.

JohnDoe98
Jun 19, 2011, 04:51 PM
There are no better alternatives. BR is still the single highest definition media release format there is.

I already told you that you can't distribute films on USB sticks, due to price. And no, renting the USB stick and then sending is back in never a good solution. So that means basically to buy a movie, you have to go to the post office to send the thing back? Who would spend time on such a thing?

BR is not the highest media format. There is a 50gb limit. As for your price claim, I already refuted it. I never claimed we ought to use USB sticks to rent movies. The renting point is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking only about movie execs sharing movie files amongst themselves.

phpmaven
Jun 19, 2011, 04:53 PM
Is it just me, or Apple doesn't seem to care about the MacBooks anymore. Those Machines are stock with a Core Dual Processor. I like the MacBooks a lot, due to the way it looks, but like I said, seems like Apple doesn't care about them anymore!

Ya, it's just you.

Alvi
Jun 19, 2011, 04:54 PM
Seriously guys, stop it with the "Apple doesn't care about Macs anymore" They do care, the sales are still rising and they are one of the best computers you can buy today (not spec wise)

Also, Brian Tong is just another guy that Reads Macrumors and has been predicting the obvious you can get from 30 minutes in the forums

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 04:54 PM
I do believe that the consoles of today (predating the iOS) can browse the web and check email, they can even play BDs! Perhaps you never entered into the discussion a decade or decade and a half ago, but then consoles *were* going to replace PCs - it was a done deal - according to many many enthusiasts.

It never happened (obviously) but consoles were among other things, simpler to use and cheaper than computers.

I have never heard that rumor that consoles were going to replace PC's. Even if there was such a rumor/saying it wasn't so obvious and everywhere as it is today with these new devices.


For years people have been able to receive email and to an extent browse the internet on their cell phones and that didn't create a "post-PC" era. It wasn't even when Bill Gates (according to you) coined the phrase. No, it was when Steve Jobs claimed it and many many people believed him.

I don't know if Gates coined it. I just first heard it from him. And it's not about believing. It's happening already.


I could have mentioned that in 2006 I saw far more people spending time on their cell phones than ever on their computers, yet I wasn't convinced that we were in a "post-PC" era than any more than now.

It's not about spending more time on them. It's about whether they can do everything they do on a PC on them. In 2006 a cellphone did not offer all those things, today it kind of does. But cellphones do have small screens, so alone they can never replace PC's, for size reasons. But tablets don't have that limitation. A tablet has enough screen estate for mail/web and even games.


Also while you are of course correct that iOS devices are easier to use than PCs, we both know they are way more limited. That limitation is in no small part what makes them simple to use.

No, the limitation is not what makes them easier to use. The design philosophy is. They are only limited for professional use. There's absolutely no limitation when it comes to web browsing (ok, Flash is a big issue here but that only concerns Apple tablets), actually web browsing on a tablet is "better" than browsing on a PC. Because touch browsing is more intuitive than cursor browsing. And web browsing is a big portion of what people do on their PC's, and it's better done on a tablet.


So while they are limited and easy to use they are appealing as such, but when they get more features and more power, one has to consider a normal PC as a better choice. Thus the tablets (at least according to Apple) have to be simple and easy to use - and limited.

Tablets won't be limited when the time comes. The only reason they are limited right now is because the entire UI is for every app ever written is being redesigned for touch atm, and it's not gonna happen overnight that every feature will be carried over. Also the hardware doesn't support a full fledge application atm, but it will very soon.


But when you have a more capable tablet, one that rivals the Mac OS in features, then why a tablet .. and is there then any particular difference between a tablet and a PC? Look at what MS is offering in Windows 8, where they are going to blur the line completely between a tablet and a PC, by offering the very same OS on both.

When tablets and PC's eventually merge, the device will be the tablet, although the software will have completely carried over. A tablet will never use the same OS as a PC does today, simply because a tablet is touch based. So a cursor based OS can't be used on it. Also tablets don't have filesystem available to the user. That's a big design difference from desktop OS's. And they probably never will. So when they merge with PC's, we'll be using OS's without file system access.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 04:56 PM
BR is not the highest media format. There is a 50gb limit. As for your price claim, I already refuted it. I never claimed we ought to use USB sticks to rent movies. The renting point is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking only about movie execs sharing movie files amongst themselves.

It's the highest definition distribution format. Obviously it's not the highest def mastering format, but that's irrelevant.

Movie execs sharing movie files amongst themselves? Honestly, what are you talking about? What about the viewer? How do we get movies when there's no optical media.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 04:57 PM
Don't forget, phones are Post PC devices as well. Not just tablets. So basically most people around you already own a Post PC device.


Again, you don't understand what "post-PC" means. It's not what you think it does.

But taking your point, then we've been living in this "era" for more than a decade now. Yeah I think Apple is making a huge mistake then. Even bigger than I conceived before, because clearly PCs are going nowhere and slacking with Mac development, e.g. dropping the XServe and waiting some 17+ months to upgrade the Mac Pro, skimming on the BD support and whatnot is amzingly, amazingly stupid - especially since it seems to stem from *their* apparent realization that they've been living in a "post-PC" era for so long now and "stupidly" been developing PCs :rolleyes:

The fact is, for some reason Apple is not supporting Mac development as they did before, as is evident by the anemic OS development (ooo gestures!) and somewhat stilted hardware development. Whatever the reason is (their illusions of a post-PC era or whatever) doesn't really concern me - all I know is as a Mac user, I feel it and I see it.

In fact Apple usually takes time out to deny it at trade shows and when they are blatantly introducing something new that has nothing to do with the Mac.

Anyways, live in whatever era you want, that's not the point. The point is: There are no "all-new next-gen" Mac Pros coming any time soon. Despite what some guy on the internet said. :eek:

mrklaw
Jun 19, 2011, 04:58 PM
All true, it's just curious that Apple doesn't even give it a second thought that now *finally* even as the PC market is plateauing and the Macs are flying off the shelves, that they should use that momentum and push the Mac finally above 10% of computers - and they don't care about that because (I believe) they feel the Mac is a distraction (profitable one) from Steve's vision of the iPad-like future.

Apple has (it seems) taken the strategic decision to depreciate and wind down the Mac. Be it because they feel they can't "win", that the growth potential isn't interesting enough or because it doesn't fit into the "vision"... is largely irrelevant. It's there and it sucks for Mac users.

Except those who wonder what computers are for apart from reading news online and checking Facebook. It may not be the 90s anymore, but the computer business is still profitable and computers are quite versatile. More so than an iPad can ever be.

Perhaps apple are happy with 10% market share but disproportionately large profit share? Maybe its not possible to have 15-20% market share without having to compromise on margins, and they don't want to do that?

iBug2
Jun 19, 2011, 04:59 PM
A 30" CinemaDisplay is more than enough to enjoy every single pixel of a BD - and to be quite frank, I've yet to see anything bigger than a 42" TV in a home here and it's just as fine as my iMac (because I sit closer to the iMac)

In fact it seems to be some sort of a misunderstanding that BD must be on a huge monitor to be enjoyed. It's still just a movie and the monitor is quite capable of showing every pixel - even if it wasn't it would still show more pixels than a DVD.

Furthermore, there's nothing interesting about 720p or even 1080p streaming movies, especially on a computer with this good monitor - let alone on a 50" TV, since the bitrate is pathetic on those video-streams compared to BD.

Resolution is merely half the story. A high bitrate 720p is far better than a low bitrate 1080p video and quite frankly, considering how anemic and slow the upgrade of the internet infrastructure is - the "BD nightmare" (which is quite sweet dream actually!) is going nowhere.

It's quite irrelevant that a display can display all the pixels in a blu ray. Next year when they release iPad 3 with retina display, it'll also be capable of displaying every pixel in a blu ray, but would you prefer to watch a blu ray on a 10" screen or a 50" screen? Size does matter. That's why people still go to movie theaters.

Bitrate of course matters, but a 10kbit bitrate on 1080p will be enough for most people if the bandwidth allows them to download it.

The BD nightmare will go away, because like I said, the next thing after Blu Ray won't make sense on computer monitors anyway.

Chiuy
Jun 19, 2011, 05:00 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8C148a Safari/6533.18.5)

Wait. What?! I just bought my MBP like 4 hrs ago! Is this true or just another rumor? Should I return it?
Or is it just a minon upgrade the specs?

JohnDoe98
Jun 19, 2011, 05:02 PM
It's the highest definition distribution format. Obviously it's not the highest def mastering format, but that's irrelevant.

Movie execs sharing movie files amongst themselves? Honestly, what are you talking about? What about the viewer? How do we get movies when there's no optical media.

First you claimed that viewing was not the issue, a few posts ago, now you want to make it an issue again. Which is it?

If renting and viewing films is the issue, then it has nothing to do with Mac Pros needing BR Authoring, which was the initial topic btw. But, assuming that is the issue, the itunes movie stores, and services like netflix or Amazon are making it readily apparent that the majority of comsumers couldn't care less about maximum picture quality. And to the extent that they do, they can easily stream the movies by pre-downloading the content. Again, Apple has got it right.

The same shift as we saw with music is happening with movies. Lossless quality music in the format of CDs is dead. I hate to break it to you. The same is happening to movies and Apple recognizes it.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 05:04 PM
iMacs already did replace Mac Pro's on many professional design studios. Not every professional uses Mac Pro anymore. But 15 years ago, if you were doing professional work, you just couldn't get it done on the slow macs, people bought the most expensive ones, always. But today, not every professional needs to do it. Some still do, and they do buy Mac Pro's, I'm one of them. I still do need Mac Pro, but I know many others who don't, not anymore.

They make do with iMacs (you mean) and mostly it's because they now have decent monitors - doing design work on the 15" iMac of 1998 was out of the question, but it actually could run Illustrator well enough, even Quark.

Back before the 24" iMac there was no other machine than the Power Macintosh that offered support for a large display (excepting the Cube, but well that disappeared fast) and Apple even neutered the GPUs of the lower Macs so they only supported mirroring instead of dual display - precisely for that reason.

So yeah, many can make due with an iMac at 27", but every single one of them would notice a considerable difference were they to use a Mac Pro instead. It's just cheaper to buy an iMac.

There was never a time that the lower end of the Mac spectrum was unusable for design work (such as the iMac and the eMac) but they were simply not possible to use with their tiny 15" and 17" non-Trinitron CRTs.

Atlantico
Jun 19, 2011, 05:05 PM
As for the people asking for a BluRay drive in the system.
This would make sense, it's meant for people doing video editing after all.
It would be nice ot be able to burn backups and archives of large projects on BluRay recordable discs. One BluRay recordable or 10 DVD-R's? Which would you rather deal with.
The backup/archiving even applies to photgraphers as the profession digital cameras make higher and higher resolution images, the more space you need to deal with the images.
Why should the Mac be the only brand of computer without a BluRay drive option?


Note: I do realize burnt optical disks have a lifespan question. But so do regular hard drives. And most professionals would make at least 2 copies of the permanent archive for a project.

Completely agreed! Amen to that. Well said!! :cool: