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MacRumors
Jun 21, 2011, 01:06 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/21/lion-clean-install-requires-snow-leopard-disk/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/06/lionlogo1-150x150.jpg

In order to perform a "clean install" of Lion -- on a new hard drive or when restoring a machine to sell it, for example -- users will need to install Snow Leopard first, according to an email forwarded to MacRumors, purportedly from Apple CEO Steve Jobs.

We have inspected the raw header information included in the email and believe it to be genuine, but these emails must always be taken with a grain of salt.
On Jun 20, 2011, at 9:57 PM, xxxx <xxxx@gmail.com> wrote:

Steve,

I'm really exited about Lion, but I'm a bit anxious about the absence of any physical media in the event of a crash where I need to do a clean install. Will Lion still provide a way to make a bootable image in the event that I need to start from scratch?And Steve's typically short response:
From: Steve Jobs <sjobs@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Lion clean install
Date: June 21, 2011 7:55:05 AM PDT
To: xxxx <xxxx@gmail.com>

You can clean install Snow Leopaard [sic] first.

Sent from my iPhoneIf this is true, it seems likely Apple will continue to sell Snow Leopard for the foreseeable future for users upgrading from Leopard and to perform clean installs.

Apple still sells Leopard for users who wish to upgrade their pre-Intel PowerPC Macs. Leopard is $129 and only available through 800-MY-APPLE, not the Apple Online Store or the retail stores. The company could offer Snow Leopard in the same surreptitious manner.

Article Link: Lion Clean Install Requires Snow Leopard Disk? (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/21/lion-clean-install-requires-snow-leopard-disk/)



BLACKFRIDAY
Jun 21, 2011, 01:09 PM
Apple has gone crazy with this release?

What happened to user experience and ease of use? C'mon.

interconnect
Jun 21, 2011, 01:10 PM
Uh oh. This is really, really not good.

macbwizard
Jun 21, 2011, 01:10 PM
Surely you can't be serious.

dukebound85
Jun 21, 2011, 01:10 PM
such an elegant solution /sarcasm

nagromme
Jun 21, 2011, 01:10 PM
About what I’d expect during this transition.

I expect new machines will start to come with a key disc or flash drive (like the Air), which may not have the full Lion (since that’s downloadable) but will take the place of the Snow Leopard disc for a vital purpose: getting the thing to boot when no usable OS is on the internal!

such an elegant solution /sarcasm

It’s a downloadable OS. Would you expect a new install on a non-bootable drive to not require any media at all? (I do think that will come in future, but there would have to be pretty advanced firmware to make the download happen.) Or would you expect it to require something other than the Snow Leopard disc that you had to have before you bought Lion anyway?

I suppose Apple could have a way to make your own emergency disc “just in case," but almost nobody would do it. So, for now, use Snow Leopard as the emergency disc.

It could be argued that OS’s should not be downloads; that it’s too soon to make that leap. Since I’m not a modem user, I disagree and welcome this (very slightly rough) transition away from coffee coasters! :)

fishmoose
Jun 21, 2011, 01:10 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't the definition of a clean install rule out installing Snow Leopard and the upgrade to Lion? A clean install, in my mind, means installing the OS from scratch on your new system/drive.

macaddiict
Jun 21, 2011, 01:10 PM
You're upgrading it wrong.

Side to MacRumors: surreptitious seems like a bit of an overstatement...

TimUSCA
Jun 21, 2011, 01:10 PM
Wouldn't it make more sense to just have a "Create Install Disk" function built into the OS?

iTim314
Jun 21, 2011, 01:11 PM
Apple has gone crazy with this release?

What happened to user experience and ease of use? C'mon.

For most users (who are not nearly as technically as the average MR poster) that is friendly... er.

I will be doing a clean install of SL before I download Lion.

guitargoddsjm
Jun 21, 2011, 01:11 PM
This is just plain stupid. I'm not going to keep an album of previous OS releases on disk because Apple wants to toy around with the Mac App Store.

Isn't the point to move away from physical media?

Tom8
Jun 21, 2011, 01:11 PM
It might not be brilliant, but it works. Just reinstall Snow Leopard and you can download Lion again for free from the Mac App Store with your Apple I.D. Makes sense to me...

gramirez2012
Jun 21, 2011, 01:12 PM
You only have to do it once, because once Lion is installed, it will put a recovery partition on the hard disk. So you won't need a disc after the initial install.

MatLane
Jun 21, 2011, 01:12 PM
Can't bielieve im hearing this from Apple

I thought the article was on windows for a min:rolleyes:


Something needs to be done about that. Fiddly

longofest
Jun 21, 2011, 01:12 PM
That is ridiculously stupid. How un-apple like

Edit: I had bounced around this and other options in a blog post just yesterday (http://www.techperfect.net/2011/06/questions-remain-regarding-lion-upgrade-from-pre-snow-leopard/). For instance, Apple could still have physical media only at Apple Stores, or via special order.

I simply can't believe Apple is being this obstinate about being Mac App Store only

andi242
Jun 21, 2011, 01:12 PM
I just can not believe this.

We'll find a way anyway.

carlosap
Jun 21, 2011, 01:13 PM
:D

you can do that, or wait for some ISO release, USB install, etc.
From apple or from another respetable source as tpb

MacDawg
Jun 21, 2011, 01:13 PM
I remain skeptical of this

Sjhonny
Jun 21, 2011, 01:13 PM
How about brand new devices? (like next gen MBA or MPro)? Or will these machines host a basic OS chip, from which you can reach the app store.

simon360
Jun 21, 2011, 01:13 PM
In the developer preview, the way to do a clean install (that I've used for every developer preview) is to create a blank partition, formatted as HFS+, and tell the installer to install Lion there.

inket
Jun 21, 2011, 01:14 PM
Steve Jobs doesn't know a thing about Lion. He only cares about iOS.

Yes, you can clean install Lion without Snow Leopard.

chameleon81
Jun 21, 2011, 01:14 PM
It might not be brilliant, but it works. Just reinstall Snow Leopard and you can download Lion again for free from the Mac App Store with your Apple I.D. Makes sense to me...

Slow connection?

dagamer34
Jun 21, 2011, 01:14 PM
Not an issue: http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1166184

Of course, Jobs solution assumes you don't have a working system, because say, a hard drive crashed.

frunkis54
Jun 21, 2011, 01:14 PM
Its not that bad only have to add an xtra step of intallining 2 OS's on a new hard drive instead of 1.:eek:

Watabou
Jun 21, 2011, 01:14 PM
This is un-apple like. Come on apple, what's so wrong about physical medias? They can at least provide a USB for those who need it...

Rudy69
Jun 21, 2011, 01:14 PM
The only way they will distribute it is through the AppStore so you need at least Snow Leopard to do that. Once you have a copy you can burn the DMG to a dvd (or usb stick) and boot that directly on any core2duo or better mac

binarymelon
Jun 21, 2011, 01:15 PM
It might not be brilliant, but it works. Just reinstall Snow Leopard and you can download Lion again for free from the Mac App Store with your Apple I.D. Makes sense to me...

What happens 2 or 3 revisions of the OS down the line? Are we expected to keep our Snow Leopard discs around that long? Also aren't all copies of Snow Leopard "upgrade" copies which require Leopard prior to installing. From personal experience I know this isn't the case, but isn't that the official company stance?

HBOC
Jun 21, 2011, 01:15 PM
I wonder how many people are really running Leopard though for this to be a problem? I am sure the majority are PPC people, especially for the $29 it cost for SL.

Also, who knows, perhaps Apple will put Leopard and SL on the Mac store if this snowballs out of control. No reason why THEY CANT do that.

PigsOnTheWing
Jun 21, 2011, 01:15 PM
I can't speak for the final release version, but I have already booted from and installed the developer preview of Lion onto a brand new hard drive and was never asked to insert a Snow Leopard disc.

dustinsc
Jun 21, 2011, 01:15 PM
I'd be willing to bet that within 3 months after release Apple will give in and distribute Lion on physical media as an option. Or at the very least, some sort of bootable DVD or thumb drive. It might come without the entire system, but would have system tools like hard drive repair available as well as a way to get to the App Store to reinstall Lion.

JSMencer
Jun 21, 2011, 01:15 PM
so if i don't have a snow leopard disk, I need to buy a snow leopard disk, and pay for lion. Not cool....

Sjhonny
Jun 21, 2011, 01:16 PM
In the developer preview, the way to do a clean install (that I've used for every developer preview) is to create a blank partition, formatted as HFS+, and tell the installer to install Lion there.

means you have to be booted from a regular (snow) leopard os, in order to install Lion. Not install dvd os.

spillproof
Jun 21, 2011, 01:16 PM
BS. Having to install Snow Leopard first is not a smart move by Apple.


I call BS.

sand0s
Jun 21, 2011, 01:16 PM
nah... you can just do this:

http://modmyi.com/content/4583-how-make-os-x-lion-boot-disk.html

Worksafe
Jun 21, 2011, 01:16 PM
Apple better get their act together on this or they might piss off the people that have supported them in the past.

HD's can corrupt, TM's can corrupt and I would prefer to install Lion and not have to install SL. Seems redundant and redundancy at Apple isn't taken lightly, but then again we are talking about a 90 billion dollar company.

Maybe costumer service has been tossed out with the baby and the bath water!

ericmooreart
Jun 21, 2011, 01:16 PM
Apple has been off the deep end lately but this surely can't be true...

kolargol
Jun 21, 2011, 01:16 PM
i totaly dont belive in that. It is kinda crazy to install OS ... twice! (first SL, then Lion).

What i believe is that there will be simple option to burn Lion DVD, and that's it.

kiljoy616
Jun 21, 2011, 01:16 PM
Don't want to be user support when this goes down. :rolleyes:

And Apple stores with people who want Lion but have useless internet access. :p

I predict the end of DVD on Mac Pro, Steve has spoken and he hates it. Big ass battery is the future. I for one welcome it even as I ponder how I will deal with it. Next big thing will be mac start hold "option" button and tell it to re-install OS apple store not even needed :)

ryanmcv
Jun 21, 2011, 01:16 PM
I thought someone had already found a way to burn a DVD of Lion. The DMG has to be located somewhere on your hard drive after you download it from the App Store.

macmongral
Jun 21, 2011, 01:17 PM
Target disk mode solves it all, or make a usb boot stick


there are many ways to skin a cat :eek:


Just wait and see what next month brings before you get your panties in a twist

problems are there to be solved

At this time in place upgrades leave a lot of detritus behind like the app folder in the dock for one , there are lots more

xUKHCx
Jun 21, 2011, 01:17 PM
You only have to do it once, because once Lion is installed, it will put a recovery partition on the hard disk. So you won't need a disc after the initial install.

Of course that is assuming that the reason for the new install isn't a.) your old disk failed b.) that you are upgrading your disk.

nesl247
Jun 21, 2011, 01:17 PM
I wonder if future macs will include an inbuilt SD card or something of the sort that cannot be removed or written to, that contains the installation disc shipped with the computer. This way if your hard drive dies, you can still recover. This would also allow for the elimination of physical media, yet give us an option for a clean install.

joshrholloway
Jun 21, 2011, 01:18 PM
From Apple (http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/features.html#internetrestore):

OS X Lion includes a built-in restore partition, allowing you to repair or reinstall OS X without the need for discs.

Tom8
Jun 21, 2011, 01:18 PM
Slow connection?

Then i would question how you were downloading Lion in the first place?
And how many times have you actually needed to do a clean install? i know i haven't done one for quite a few years now...

bwestmoreland
Jun 21, 2011, 01:18 PM
For those who have the BETA installed, reboot your machine and hold down the N key, you can then boot from the recovery partition, as long as you have access to the internet you can authenticate your appleID and reinstall from a recovery partition.

OllyW
Jun 21, 2011, 01:18 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't the definition of a clean install rule out installing Snow Leopard and the upgrade to Lion? A clean install, in my mind, means installing the OS from scratch on your new system/drive.

You should still have the option to erase and install.

thejadedmonkey
Jun 21, 2011, 01:18 PM
I just got a Dell, and it came with an OS recovery disc.

I feel like the world just flipped upside-down. Is Apple serious?

EDIT: What happens if your hard drive fails on a mac that comes preinstalled with Lion? If you replace it, and the new hard drive isn't from Apple, there's no recovery partition, there's no restore partition, and there's no DVD to boot off of...

VSMacOne
Jun 21, 2011, 01:18 PM
I know this is far fetched, but this is Apple afterall :)

Is there a remote chance that new hardware coming with Lion (new MBAs, Minis) will have some sort of designated SSD just for Lion? The SSD has Lion and in case of a crash, the mac will boot into that, and have options to repair or do a fresh install? Is that even possible? :confused:

wordoflife
Jun 21, 2011, 01:19 PM
I would pay Apple money to just give me a Lion disc/USB.
Why are we making this so hard? :(

It's honestly such a horrible solution.

It's like a tow truck company telling you that you need to bring your broken car to their office to get it towed ... kinda. :confused:

ericmooreart
Jun 21, 2011, 01:19 PM
The only way they will distribute it is through the AppStore so you need at least Snow Leopard to do that. Once you have a copy you can burn the DMG to a dvd (or usb stick) and boot that directly on any core2duo or better mac

Although I am running Snow Leopard, this is just another reason to hate the App Store

anthonyjr
Jun 21, 2011, 01:20 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/534.32 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8F190 Safari/6533.18.5)

I remember reading on the Lion features page that it would create a new partition to hold the Lion installer incase of emergency.

daneoni
Jun 21, 2011, 01:20 PM
This has to be a joke. I mean what?!

OllyW
Jun 21, 2011, 01:20 PM
For those who have the BETA installed, reboot your machine and hold down the N key, you can then boot from the recovery partition, as long as you have access to the internet you can authenticate to itunes and reinstall from a recovery partition.

I remember reading on the Lion features page that it would create a new partition to hold the Lion installer incase of emergency.

That doesn't help you if you are installing a new hard drive.

virus7
Jun 21, 2011, 01:20 PM
You only have to do it once, because once Lion is installed, it will put a recovery partition on the hard disk. So you won't need a disc after the initial install.

that was my impression as well.

Anaemik
Jun 21, 2011, 01:20 PM
I call BS on this one. How does Steve's iPhone not auto-correct "Leopaard"?

Bevz
Jun 21, 2011, 01:21 PM
such an elegant solution /sarcasm

LOL - you nailed it with that.

cleric
Jun 21, 2011, 01:21 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

I think NetBoot will get upgraded to go to the interwebz.

PigsOnTheWing
Jun 21, 2011, 01:21 PM
nah... you can just do this:

http://modmyi.com/content/4583-how-make-os-x-lion-boot-disk.html
Exactly. I have booted Lion from a thumb drive and successfully installed it onto a brand new hard drive without ever being asked anything about Snow Leopard. I guess I'm missing something. :confused:

humblecoder
Jun 21, 2011, 01:21 PM
So what about when "Cougar" or "Ocelot" (or any other cat name) comes out? Are we all gonna have to go back to Snow Leopard just to install a 90ish% clean system? I can certainly appreciate simplicity, but dumbing it down for everyone while punishing the "power users" is a bad move.

Obviously the actualities remain to be seen, but it's not looking good.

wikus
Jun 21, 2011, 01:22 PM
Seems like Lion should be called 10.6.8

MacObsessed
Jun 21, 2011, 01:22 PM
I have been wondering about this very thing. My concern is due, in part, to the fact that I've lived overseas, where internet access is slow or nonexistent. In such a case, will you have to re-download the Lion upgrade, or will there be a way to save the install package to a disk? I think that if this report ends up being true, I will do a clean install once, and then run a bootable CCC backup for future restores.
I also wonder what you would do to correct corrupted disks if there is no way to boot to some physical media and run disk utility? surely they have thought of all this, and have provided a reasonable solution, right?

chaosbunny
Jun 21, 2011, 01:22 PM
I thought it is possible to create a bootable DVD from the downloaded installer? :confused:

HelveticaNeue
Jun 21, 2011, 01:22 PM
This doesn't feel like Apple. It's too messy. That said, I unfortunately believe it.

roadbloc
Jun 21, 2011, 01:22 PM
Well, I won't be buying Lion then. Clean install or no install. Sorry Apple, you've lost my sale.

lewis82
Jun 21, 2011, 01:23 PM
You won't have to clean install Leopard first. We have known since DP1 that it is possible to burn the installer on a DVD/ flash drive, but Steve obviously won't endorse that solution. And if the said installer doesn't let you clean install Lion, but just update, no problem: use another install DVD (it can be Tiger if you want) to erase the hard drive, then boot off the Lion disk.

acslater017
Jun 21, 2011, 01:23 PM
Surely you can't be serious.

He is. And don't call him Shirley.

fleanine
Jun 21, 2011, 01:23 PM
He did say you "CAN" use the Snow Leopard disk.. He didn't say you couldn't burn a copy from the files you dowloaded and use that.. I'm sure there will be a workaround.

World Citizen
Jun 21, 2011, 01:24 PM
I don't see an issue people...
If I use google... If find lots of posts about people creating boot disks... So it IS possible.

Wether Apple will include a tool for this we don't know.. Or maybe they will make an extra hidden partition from where you can boot in the future... Because Apple eagerly wants the people with a broken HDD in the store... right $$

Believe me, This email can say whatever it says. But Apple doesn't want all those people in the store for a reinstall.

Al this logic against one possibly true e-mail. Sry, I'll wait for the release.

roland.g
Jun 21, 2011, 01:24 PM
Another reason to wait for Lion's release to get my new iMac. Pre-loaded.

kiljoy616
Jun 21, 2011, 01:24 PM
Target disk mode solves it all, or make a usb boot stick


there are many ways to skin a cat :eek:


Just wait and see what next month brings before you get your panties in a twist

problems are there to be solved

At this time in place upgrades leave a lot of detritus behind like the app folder in the dock for one , there are lots more

Yes first we must wait but second, always remember your not a Doctor so you should not be made to figure out how to insert your own catheter a good old days:p. Same here, most people may not have the tech knoledge or want to have to deal with taking time to "skin a cat", I do but a lot of people don't.

A dvd makes life easier for Mac users who are not super users so I am wondering if they will really do it this way long term.:rolleyes:

wordoflife
Jun 21, 2011, 01:25 PM
Well, I won't be buying Lion then. Clean install or no install. Sorry Apple, you've lost my sale.

I think I might hold out on purchasing it.
It's weird though cause Apple said that there was a partition with Lion that would allow you to reinstall. But Steve says you need SL first:confused:

ten-oak-druid
Jun 21, 2011, 01:25 PM
This is no big deal. If it is the case then Apple will continue selling SL OS and from it you can opt for the Lion OS if you like.

For those who wish to slowly transition to Lion multiple partitions with SL and Lion is an option. And you know Apple has to continue to support SL for some time.

ngenerator
Jun 21, 2011, 01:25 PM
Where can I get a copy of Snow Leopaard?

wordoflife
Jun 21, 2011, 01:25 PM
Another reason to wait for Lion's release to get my new iMac. Pre-loaded.

I wonder if you will get a disc with that.

Veg
Jun 21, 2011, 01:25 PM
I'm sorry but did anyone notice that the person who e-mailed SJ misspelled excited? They wrote it as exited, rather then excited.
C'mon have some respect when you email the great SJ and spell check your sentences.

acslater017
Jun 21, 2011, 01:26 PM
Exactly. I have booted Lion from a thumb drive and successfully installed it onto a brand new hard drive without ever being asked anything about Snow Leopard. I guess I'm missing something. :confused:

How do you expect everyone to know that method off-hand? :confused:

Regardless, the fact that Apple, the king of usability and seamlessness, would make someone do that is ridiculous.

squirrelist
Jun 21, 2011, 01:26 PM
A Snow Leopard disc will ONLY be required if installing a brand new drive from scratch. You can STILL do a clean install from the download without burning it or copying it to USB.

When you install Lion the first time, the installer creates a recovery partition, fundamentally building the install disc into your hard drive. After that you can erase your OS partition and install Lion cleanly if you wish. Just don't erase the recovery partition.

So only the FIRST time you install will need to be an upgrade. After you have the recovery partition in there you can clean-install to your heart's content.

The only time it's not a great user experience is if you have a hard drive failure, at which point you will need help from a professional (or hobbyist) anyway, and they will know how to handle the situation. It's not a user friendly solution to install Snow Leopard, upgrade, then clean install, but a pro or hobbyist will have the skills and tools.

MacGeek50
Jun 21, 2011, 01:26 PM
Steve , I normally agree with you on other stuff, but not having a disk for the os AND having to clean install snow leopard first then download lion? common, thats a little ridiculous. I can understand if you're trying to save a coin for the new campus, and i'd love to help out!! but just ship a disk so we can end this nonsense please. :confused: and what are to do if we suffer a death of a hard drive? ask the genius bar to kindly re-install? right...

nunes013
Jun 21, 2011, 01:27 PM
guess i will have to find an .ISO and make a bootable flash drive once it comes out. good thing an 8 gb is only like $15 now.

darthcarto
Jun 21, 2011, 01:27 PM
Ugh. I hope the Developer workaround (burn the DMG to disk or flashdrive) will work with final. Downloading 4+ GB to 4 Macs will suck. I just want to download it once and then install if from media on the others. Plus the idea of a total harddrive failure, I'd rather not do the SL > Lion thing.

humblecoder
Jun 21, 2011, 01:27 PM
You only have to do it once, because once Lion is installed, it will put a recovery partition on the hard disk. So you won't need a disc after the initial install.

2 things:

1) I don't want a "recovery partition", and it'd really be nice if people (Apple included) wouldn't use "recovery" terminology as it confuses the issue and connotes "baggage".

2) I fill every HD I get (internal and otherwise). I'm not interested giving even 4GB to the system for a wasted "recovery partition"

...and I'd be willing to bet I'm not alone.

johneaston
Jun 21, 2011, 01:28 PM
You can clean install Snow Leopaard [sic] first.

Shouldn't "Steve Jobs'" iPhone have auto corrected that little error?

wikus
Jun 21, 2011, 01:28 PM
I wonder if you will get a disc with that.

Yeah, it'll be Snow Leopard, lol.

MathijsDelva
Jun 21, 2011, 01:28 PM
So.. Has everybody suddenly forgotten you can just burn the Lion dmg to a dvd (probably dual layer) and use it as a backup install disc?

Amazing Iceman
Jun 21, 2011, 01:28 PM
I would understand requiring a Snow Leopard DVD to check authenticity during installation, but to require the installation of Snow Leopard and then Lion on top of that, you can remove the "Clean" from "Clean Install".

Icaras
Jun 21, 2011, 01:28 PM
This is un-apple like. Come on apple, what's so wrong about physical medias? They can at least provide a USB for those who need it...

Un-Apple like? The same company who removed the optical drive from the MBA? The same company who won't upgrade to blu-ray? The same company who has the largest online digital store in the world? The same company who removed the CD image from it's iTunes logo?

No, seems very Apple-like to me actually.

gkarris
Jun 21, 2011, 01:29 PM
A Snow Leopard disc will ONLY be required if installing a brand new drive from scratch. You can STILL do a clean install from the download without burning it or copying it to USB.

Actually, from what I'm hearing, many of the new machines require a hard drive with Apple's special firmware on it to work (or some sort of thermal monitoring?).

So replacing the drive yourself it out anyways...

314631
Jun 21, 2011, 01:29 PM
Steve Jobs doesn't know a thing about Lion. He only cares about iOS.

Yes, you can clean install Lion without Snow Leopard.

I'm under NDA so I couldn't possibly agree or disagree with you.

roland.g
Jun 21, 2011, 01:30 PM
I wonder if you will get a disc with that.

I would assume you would still get a Lion restore DVD or USB disc.

Lesser Evets
Jun 21, 2011, 01:30 PM
If you had to get to this point to decide not to buy/install Lion, you have probably been sleeping.

A "normal" Mac OSX upgrade is enough of a trauma, but now they are heaping further dilemma on the upgrade situation. I'll switch up when needed. Lion is not needed. They'll probably still support Snow Leopard for another couple years until 10.8 or even beyond.

juicedropsdeuce
Jun 21, 2011, 01:30 PM
Just buy a new maac [sic].

-Steve

Anaemik
Jun 21, 2011, 01:30 PM
I call BS on this one. How does Steve's iPhone not auto-correct "Leopaard"?

Am I the only one to find this suspect?

Icaras
Jun 21, 2011, 01:30 PM
So.. Has everybody suddenly forgotten you can just burn the Lion dmg to a dvd (probably dual layer) and use it as a backup install disc?

Yes, this is just another case of several MR users going ballistic without stopping to think about it for a second.

Edit: Also, I personally still think that shipping machines with pre-built Lion install restore partitions wouldn't be out of the question. And if users are leary about losing that partition in case of a failed hard drive, you could always copy the image to another drive for backup. They're are so many solutions to this issue.

PigsOnTheWing
Jun 21, 2011, 01:30 PM
How do you expect everyone to know that method off-hand? :confused:
That's not really the point, is it? The original post declared that Snow Leopard would be required for a clean install. It is not.

Mr.damien
Jun 21, 2011, 01:31 PM
lol, because people here this is real ?

Get a brain, how people with brand new machine not supported by SL will do ?

You think they will have to buy a new mac ? Just lol ...

BlackMangoTree
Jun 21, 2011, 01:31 PM
nah... you can just do this:

http://modmyi.com/content/4583-how-make-os-x-lion-boot-disk.html

Now you can. We don't know if it will be possible with the final release.

Amazing Iceman
Jun 21, 2011, 01:32 PM
If you had to get to this point to decide not to buy/install Lion, you have probably been sleeping.

A "normal" Mac OSX upgrade is enough of a trauma, but now they are heaping further dilemma on the upgrade situation. I'll switch up when needed. Lion is not needed. They'll probably still support Snow Leopard for another couple years until 10.8 or even beyond.

Trauma? I didn't know that. I've only upgraded from Leopard to Snow Leopard more than once, and had no trauma. Maybe some incompatible drivers, but no major failures or crashes.

Simplicated
Jun 21, 2011, 01:32 PM
I'm sorry but did anyone notice that the person who e-mailed SJ misspelled excited? They wrote it as exited, rather then excited.
C'mon have some respect when you email the great SJ and spell check your sentences.

Steve, bursting out in anger due to the wrong spelling, responded with a typo as well, as seen in "Leopaard". :rolleyes:

ten-oak-druid
Jun 21, 2011, 01:32 PM
Hindsite is 20/20 but the cat names could have been better.


10.6 should have been Tiger and 10.8 should have been Lion

And 10.7 seems transitional. A little of the future but still requiring the past and so been called Liger.

miniroll32
Jun 21, 2011, 01:32 PM
Everyone seems to be forgetting that, once Lion is released, not only will the OS be installed on the machine but the chances are that Apple will also provide a USB drive - just like on the MB-Air - but across all their products. If they really want to phase out the use of discs for their OS's, then it makes perfect sense that they use the same USB drive for each of their products.

IMPMAC
Jun 21, 2011, 01:32 PM
Computers that come out after lion will come with a USB drive that hosts a small app that allows you to download lion by putting in your Apple ID and password.

^ That is the only solution. What happens if lion is the first OS of the computer it self?

juicedropsdeuce
Jun 21, 2011, 01:32 PM
Actually, from what I'm hearing, many of the new machines require a hard drive with Apple's special firmware on it to work (or some sort of thermal monitoring?).

So replacing the drive yourself it out anyways...

True, so it's a non-issue in reality. People need to chill. :rolleyes:

yg17
Jun 21, 2011, 01:33 PM
I know this is far fetched, but this is Apple afterall :)

Is there a remote chance that new hardware coming with Lion (new MBAs, Minis) will have some sort of designated SSD just for Lion? The SSD has Lion and in case of a crash, the mac will boot into that, and have options to repair or do a fresh install? Is that even possible? :confused:

Sure, it's possible, but it's still a piece of hardware that can fail, then you're SOL.

CanadianGuy
Jun 21, 2011, 01:34 PM
Sorry, this email is fake. It says 'Sent from my iPhone', yet it has a typo in the word Leopard, one that is autocorrected on iPhone.

marksman
Jun 21, 2011, 01:34 PM
I don't believe it simply because Steve Jobs is not misspelling "leopard" in that kind of message from any place he is responding to that e-mail.

lewis82
Jun 21, 2011, 01:34 PM
Now you can. We don't know if it will be possible with the final release.

People outside of the Mar rumor scene (I'm talking about all other Apple sites, including MR), which must be 99% of the people, are NOT aware of this. I doubt it will be removed. As long as they get their money, they're happy.

rmwebs
Jun 21, 2011, 01:34 PM
Apple has gone crazy with this release?

What happened to user experience and ease of use? C'mon.

Its because they want to get as many credit cards on file with iTunes/Appstore/Mac Appstore accounts as possible as a way to hopefully secure you as a long term buyer from the appstores.

haxzamatic
Jun 21, 2011, 01:34 PM
I have installed Lion on a fresh harddrive using a DVD and it works great! I had issues with a upgrade from Snow Leopard so I made a Lion Dev4 DVD put a spare hard drive in and formated it. Then it installed like 10.6 would.

It did take about 20mins to boot to install menu though. I will say this if you are running 10.7 and try to boot to a 10.6 install DVD it won't even recognize the 10.6 DVD. (Or maybe my disc was bad or something?) I had to burn lion to a disc then I was able to repair the harddrive, but still had the issue. So I put my spare harddrive in, formatted it, and did a fresh Lion install. Runs great now :)

EDIT: This was done on a 15-inch, Mid 2010 MacBook Pro

maclaptop
Jun 21, 2011, 01:35 PM
Apple is getting worse than Verizon, they nickle and dime us at every turn. The cost to produce and sell DVD's of LION for those who wish to have one is so small it's not even funny.

But let's not forget, it's not about the customer experience any longer it's about bragging rights for Apple. They have an insatiable need for more cash. It goes hand in hand with their need to bully everyone who wants anything to do with Apple.

DarwinOSX
Jun 21, 2011, 01:35 PM
It's pretty sad how many people assume this rumor is true and respond with outrage.
It's very easy to spoof e-mail headers MacRumors. As if Steve Jobs is sitting around responding to these kinds of e-mails. It's laughable.
The current developer version does not require this and it is extremely unlikely the release version will either.
Happy now?

Anaemik
Jun 21, 2011, 01:35 PM
Sorry, this email is fake. It says 'Sent from my iPhone', yet it has a typo in the word Leopard, one that is autocorrected on iPhone.

Welcome to 45 posts ago ;)

ten-oak-druid
Jun 21, 2011, 01:36 PM
Where can I get a copy of Snow Leopaard?

The Apple Store (http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC573Z/A?fnode=MTY1NDAzOA&mco=MTc1MTEzNjY)

retty
Jun 21, 2011, 01:36 PM
It might not be brilliant, but it works. Just reinstall Snow Leopard and you can download Lion again for free from the Mac App Store with your Apple I.D. Makes sense to me...

What makes sense? If the whole point is to move away form physical release then obviously that hasn't happened. You still need to use a physical copy in the form of 10.6. If we're doing that then we might as well have a physical copy of 10.7 and have cleaner + faster installs.

Having said that. This seems so outrageously poor for the end users that I don't believe it's true.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 21, 2011, 01:36 PM
I just got a Dell, and it came with an OS recovery disc.

I feel like the world just flipped upside-down. Is Apple serious?

EDIT: What happens if your hard drive fails on a mac that comes preinstalled with Lion? If you replace it, and the new hard drive isn't from Apple, there's no recovery partition, there's no restore partition, and there's no DVD to boot off of...

If it fails on a iMac you cant replace the HDD anyway so doesn't matter. Probably all Macs will ship with un-replaceable HHD's

benderooo
Jun 21, 2011, 01:36 PM
In order to perform a "clean install" of Lion -- on a new hard drive or when restoring a machine to sell it, for example -- users will need to install Snow Leopard first
[/url]


1. get developer beta
2. select Lion Installation app, do "Show Content" and go to Shared folder
3. extract (copy it to any folder) dmg you find there. This is Lion installation disk image.
4. Open/mount dmg you just copiedand run installation directly from it
5. now you can select clean partition with NO SNOW LEOPARD on it.

The deal is - entire app which is on the top of LION installation dmg is NOT necessary if you want to make clean install. I just simply assume it is gonna be same with final release... and yes, I know, I may be wrong ;-)

HiRez
Jun 21, 2011, 01:36 PM
I can't believe this is actually true, that's a really flakey and onerous solution and I find it hard to believe Steve is OK with that. I expect better.

wordoflife
Jun 21, 2011, 01:37 PM
It's pretty sad how many people assume this rumor is true and respond with outrage.
It's very easy to spoof e-mail headers MacRumors. As if Steve Jobs is sitting around responding to these kinds of e-mails. It's laughable.
The current developer version does not require this and it is extremely unlikely the release version will either.
Happy now?

Okay.
That still doesn't answer how we can do a clean install without SL.

marksman
Jun 21, 2011, 01:37 PM
I wonder how many people are really running Leopard though for this to be a problem? I am sure the majority are PPC people, especially for the $29 it cost for SL.

Also, who knows, perhaps Apple will put Leopard and SL on the Mac store if this snowballs out of control. No reason why THEY CANT do that.


You have to have SL to use the mac store. That is part of the problem. The Mac Store does not work on Leopard.

Danielo
Jun 21, 2011, 01:37 PM
Just buy a new maac [sic].

-Steve

You must be the real Steve.

MacsRgr8
Jun 21, 2011, 01:37 PM
The only way they will distribute it is through the AppStore so you need at least Snow Leopard to do that. Once you have a copy you can burn the DMG to a dvd (or usb stick) and boot that directly on any core2duo or better mac

This.

lewis82
Jun 21, 2011, 01:38 PM
If it fails on a iMac you cant replace the HDD anyway so doesn't matter. Probably all Macs will ship with un-replaceable HHD's

You can replace the hard drive now... a german company has made a custom chip you put on the SATA cable that contains a thermal sensor and emulates the signals sent by the custom firmware. 30 bucks or so.

The real issue here is to open the iMac ;)

ovrlrd
Jun 21, 2011, 01:38 PM
Not the first time Steve replied to something he doesn't really know very much about. I suspect it's more of a standard PR response at this point because they haven't announced anything yet, but either way there will always be easy work arounds as mentioned by many posters in this thread.

The main thing I think we will see happen though is Apple releasing a Lion/iLife/iWork pack similar to the current one that exists with SL/iLife/iWork. Though it will probably only be available through Apple's online retail store, and not advertised much.

I suspect a lot of people will hear about the way to do it through the DMG file that comes with the installer from the Mac App Store and won't need any other method.

Kuska
Jun 21, 2011, 01:39 PM
What no floppy disc drive on a Mac - It'll never catch on !!

Yes, I think we may have been here before - some of us remember ;)

Icaras
Jun 21, 2011, 01:40 PM
Okay.
That still doesn't answer how we can do a clean install without SL.

No, the answer has been mentioned countless times but you keep missing it. It's already been discussed that you could burn the image to a DVD, and even a USB key I believe.

ten-oak-druid
Jun 21, 2011, 01:40 PM
It's pretty sad how many people assume this rumor is true and respond with outrage.

Besides a handful of naive individuals who accept every rumor as fact, most of those "outraged" are the usual "concern trolls (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=concern+troll)".

robeddie
Jun 21, 2011, 01:41 PM
You only have to do it once, because once Lion is installed, it will put a recovery partition on the hard disk. So you won't need a disc after the initial install.

yeah, well, unless your hard drive crashes, or you simply want to put in a larger brand new hard drive, and rather than bulk copy everything over you want to do a clean install and start from scratch.

Besides: WHAT ABOUT THE NEW MACS RELEASED LATER THIS YEAR?!?! WHAT IF YOU WANT TO DO A CLEAN INSTALL ON ONE OF THEM, BUT SINCE THEY SHIP WITH LION ---- THEY WON'T BE ABLE TO EVEN BOOT IN SNOW LEOPARD!!!

seamer
Jun 21, 2011, 01:41 PM
That's kinda ridiculous. I expect the TRIM partition to load enough data to allow an OS install over the air, or from a secondary device like a pre-loaded USB flash drive.

baryon
Jun 21, 2011, 01:41 PM
Guys don't panic! You can make a boot USB drive or a boot DVD from the installer by doing Show Package Contents and creating a boot disk from the DMG in there, via Disk Utility. That will allow you to clean install it, and you don't even need to have Snow Leopard at all, except to download the actual file from the App Store, but you can do that on someone else's computer first.

Alternatively, if you have Snow Leopard now, you can upgrade to Lion, and once that's done you can use its recovery partition to do a clean reinstall.

I don't know why Steve would suggest this, when there is clearly an easier solution (unless you have Leopard and you don't know anyone with a Mac that has Snow Leopard). I say the email is fake.

juicedropsdeuce
Jun 21, 2011, 01:41 PM
If it fails on a iMac you cant replace the HDD anyway so doesn't matter. Probably all Macs will ship with un-replaceable HHD's

This is the way it should be. People shouldn't be messing with the original way Apple designed it by putting in extra crap. It's perfect as is. :apple:

smithrh
Jun 21, 2011, 01:42 PM
One thought that comes to mind is that Apple would then be "restricting" Lion to people with halfway decent internet connections.

You know, those very same internet connections that iCloud will be using.

This way, they would be force selecting the population of people using iCloud to those with good connections.

Having said that, I'm suspicious of the whole deal...

lucasd2
Jun 21, 2011, 01:43 PM
So what is the recovery partition used for, or how can we use it? Apple specifically says "Built into Lion
OS X Lion includes a built-in restore partition, allowing you to repair or reinstall OS X without the need for discs."

So could we do a clean install this way?

BlackMangoTree
Jun 21, 2011, 01:43 PM
This is the way it should be. People shouldn't be messing with the original way Apple designed it by putting in extra crap. It's perfect as is. :apple:

When your HHD dies on you out of warranty the computer becomes unusable with no way to replace the HDD.

Icaras
Jun 21, 2011, 01:43 PM
You have to have SL to use the mac store. That is part of the problem. The Mac Store does not work on Leopard.

Leopard discs are still sold through Apple over the phone. SL is still available through retail channels. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Leopard is a required part of the upgrade path for any PPC users still using pre-Leopard Mac OSX.

It is implied that SL will continue to be sold to allow an upgrade path for future Lion users. Seems to me they have their bases covered.

DeaconGraves
Jun 21, 2011, 01:45 PM
It's pretty sad how many people assume this rumor is true and respond with outrage.
It's very easy to spoof e-mail headers MacRumors. As if Steve Jobs is sitting around responding to these kinds of e-mails. It's laughable.
The current developer version does not require this and it is extremely unlikely the release version will either.
Happy now?

My outrage is more with MacRumors allowing a really sketchy rumor like this on the front page.

I think we need to bring back Page 2...

themoffster
Jun 21, 2011, 01:45 PM
Hi.
I don't own a mac yet and have been waiting for Lion to come out before i buy one as it will be preinstalled on the machine.

How am i expected to do a fresh install in this case?
Am i seriously being expected to buy an older version of the operating system so that i can install that to upgrade to the thing that i already bought when i purchased my machine?

solace
Jun 21, 2011, 01:45 PM
Guys don't panic! You can make a boot USB drive or a boot DVD from the installer by doing Show Package Contents and creating a boot disk from the DMG in there, via Disk Utility. That will allow you to clean install it, and you don't even need to have Snow Leopard at all, except to download the actual file from the App Store, but you can do that on someone else's computer first.

Alternatively, if you have Snow Leopard now, you can upgrade to Lion, and once that's done you can use its recovery partition to do a clean reinstall.

I don't know why Steve would suggest this, when there is clearly an easier solution (unless you have Leopard and you don't know anyone with a Mac that has Snow Leopard). I say the email is fake.

exactly. i've clean installed Lion DP2 and DP4 no problem on multiple machines.

PigsOnTheWing
Jun 21, 2011, 01:45 PM
...most of those "outraged" are the usual "concern trolls (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=concern+troll)".
I think so! It appears that no one is actually reading this topic before flying off the handle. It has already been explained numerous times how to create a Lion boot disc (I used a USB thumb drive, myself) and do a clean install without needing a copy of Snow Leopard.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 21, 2011, 01:46 PM
My outrage is more with MacRumors allowing a really sketchy rumor like this on the front page.

I think we need to bring back Page 2...

Well how does one do a clean reinstall of Lion on a new HDD officially ?

longofest
Jun 21, 2011, 01:46 PM
Of course that is assuming that the reason for the new install isn't a.) your old disk failed b.) that you are upgrading your disk.

Heh... funny you should mention upgrading your disk. Wonder if that's really going to be an issue for much longer, with Apple using proprietary interfaces on the new iMacs. If they make everything proprietary, then users don't have that issue, as they would have to go to an Apple Store to upgrade their disk anyways.

Such scary thoughts...

HiVolt
Jun 21, 2011, 01:46 PM
I'm sure people with the MBA's and the small 64GB SSD's will be very happy about having to surrender an additional 5-6GB for Lion recovery partition...

matuzalem
Jun 21, 2011, 01:47 PM
This is NOT TRUE. KThnxBye.

Icaras
Jun 21, 2011, 01:47 PM
My outrage is more with MacRumors allowing a really sketchy rumor like this on the front page.

I think we need to bring back Page 2...

Not sure about the Page 2. I like the simplicity of having one page with complementaty blogs for Mac and iOS now, but I agree with what you're saying that this article was a little ridiculous to get the spotlight. See what happens when MR stirs up the hornet's nest? :rolleyes:

Vader
Jun 21, 2011, 01:48 PM
The fact remains that it is a poor method to not offer some kind of bootable media. You must either have another working computer or make your current computer a working computer (be it by booting from an os on a usb or installing SL) before installing Lion. I am sure when Lion starts shipping pre-installed on machines, they will include a Lion restore disc.

DeaconGraves
Jun 21, 2011, 01:48 PM
Well how does one do a clean reinstall of Lion on a new HDD officially ?

Don't ask me. I haven't used Lion yet.

All I was saying was that I don't believe that the e-mail from Steve is Authentic and that MacRumors needs to go back to its old ways and only post rumors that have some grounding of authenticity in them.

juicedropsdeuce
Jun 21, 2011, 01:48 PM
When your HHD dies on you out of warranty the computer becomes unusable with no way to replace the HDD.

Step 1: Get a job.
Step 2: Buy a new mac.
Step 3: End.


:apple:

Yamcha
Jun 21, 2011, 01:48 PM
I don't like this at all, for some users this will mean buying both Snow Leopard & Lion, and not to mention its just a major inconvenience having to install 10.6 first..

But honestly I'm not too worried, I know people with the hackintosh team that are already working on making a bootable OS X Lion Disc..

tripjammer
Jun 21, 2011, 01:48 PM
I'm sure people with the MBA's and the small 64GB SSD's will be very happy about having to surrender an additional 5-6GB for Lion recovery partition...


Dude you can do a clean install on with just the LION os.

Do a bit of research and you will find out.

Anaemik
Jun 21, 2011, 01:49 PM
I think so! It appears that no one is actually reading this topic before flying off the handle. It has already been explained numerous times how to create a Lion boot disc (I used a USB thumb drive, myself) and do a clean install without needing a copy of Snow Leopard.

This is missing the point imo. Apple is waiting to launch new products so that they can ship with Lion. One of those products is targeted at a market sector that will include many newcomers to Apple and OS X. Expecting them to have to "hack" their way into getting an installable version of the OS would be a huge fail on Apple's part, and they're smart enough to know that.

Personally I put the chances of there being no way to easily create a bootable version of the OS at close to 0%.

DeaconGraves
Jun 21, 2011, 01:49 PM
Not sure about the Page 2. I like the simplicity of having one page with complementaty blogs for Mac and iOS now, but I agree with what you're saying that this article was a little ridiculous to get the spotlight. See what happens when MR stirs up the hornet's nest? :rolleyes:

Fair enough. I keep forgetting about the blogs. But maybe that's where a story like this should go.

Kyahx
Jun 21, 2011, 01:49 PM
How are people still freaking out about this?

Facts:

1. All preview releases of Lion so far have been able to be burned to physical media and used to do a clean install. There is no reason to expect the final release to be any different.

2. When installing Lion, a separate bootable Restore partition is made. This partition can be used to preform disk maintenance, restore from a Time machine backup, etc.

Keep in mind that the Apple sanctioned method of upgrading the OS has *always* been to restore the machine with the media that originally came with the computer, and then use any retail upgrade discs (NOT to do a clean install, even thou it works fine). Any machine currently for sale with Snow Leopard will be told to restore using their original media, then to upgrade to Lion -- while any machines sold post-Lion will come with physical restore media already on Lion. Again, this will be the method that Apple officially recommends and supports, but other methods will still exist to do a clean install.

Icaras
Jun 21, 2011, 01:50 PM
Apple is getting worse than Verizon, they nickle and dime us at every turn. The cost to produce and sell DVD's of LION for those who wish to have one is so small it's not even funny.

But let's not forget, it's not about the customer experience any longer it's about bragging rights for Apple. They have an insatiable need for more cash. It goes hand in hand with their need to bully everyone who wants anything to do with Apple.

Right. That's why we can now buy major OS revisions at only $30 compared to $200 for Windows and also install on as many Macs in the house with one license. Yes, Apple is SO money hungry.

Spot on, again. :rolleyes:

Harmush
Jun 21, 2011, 01:50 PM
I know its not the ideal solution to this awful problem - one which I was often thinking about myself - but you can partition a external HD install Lion and re-install from target disk mode?

Can't you?

batmac2k
Jun 21, 2011, 01:51 PM
It does seem like you can run disk utility from the recovery partition and reinstall the operating system. but if you put in a blank drive you will have to either have this recovery on an external or do the 10.6 to 10.7 path...

BlackMangoTree
Jun 21, 2011, 01:52 PM
Step 1: Get a job.
Step 2: Buy a new mac.
Step 3: End.


:apple:

Yea no worries throw away a computer just because the HDD is dead.

techdogg
Jun 21, 2011, 01:52 PM
Instead of having to start all over from Snow Leopard, buyers of Lion should either be able to create a bootable Lion restore DVD from which they could clean install or be able to create some kind of thin client ŗ la Live CD. This Live CD would only allow for a web browser and the Mac App Store, so you could recuperate your Lion download.

product26
Jun 21, 2011, 01:52 PM
*****'s weak!

BlackMangoTree
Jun 21, 2011, 01:54 PM
If the email is fake or not is besides the point. There is no official way to install it on a new HDD without Snow Leopard.

flottenheimer
Jun 21, 2011, 01:54 PM
This is incredibly annoying and very unapple-ish.

I have a friend on a C2D iMac. He needs to go from Leopard til Lion. And would like to do a clean install. He will have to go through a lot of hassle.

I'm on Snow Leopard myself. And I'd like to do a clean install as well. Like really clean. Not a clean-Lion-install-on-top-of-a-clean-Snow-Leopard-install kinda thing.

Booh!

manu chao
Jun 21, 2011, 01:56 PM
How do you expect everyone to know that method off-hand? :confused:
I expect people to not read 'must' when somebody writes 'can'.

Apple is getting worse than Verizon, they nickle and dime us at every turn. The cost to produce and sell DVD's of LION for those who wish to have one is so small it's not even funny.

I guess you would have preferred it if Apple had charged $129 and had thrown in a DVD. If it makes you happy, I will offer you to burn Lion on DVD for you for as little as $99, that will still be cheaper than the standard $129.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 21, 2011, 01:56 PM
This is incredibly annoying and very unapple-ish.

I have a friend on a C2D iMac. He needs to go from Leopard til Lion. And would like to do a clean install. He will have to go through a lot of hassle.

I'm on Snow Leopard myself. And I'd like to do a clean install as well. Like really clean. Not a clean-Lion-install-on-top-of-a-clean-Snow-Leopard-install kinda thing.

Booh!

You need to download and install Lion then boot into the recovery partion and erase the HDD and re-download and install Lion again.

Apple have gone bonkers this time around.

zerosomething
Jun 21, 2011, 01:56 PM
The Recovery partition, about 600Mb, allows the user to use Disk Utility to zero out any other partitions on the drive. Then allows a clean install of a base OS. After that the system reboots and downloads the current files needed to build the Mac.

I suspect you can also do a network boot and install from another Mac. Creating a Netinstall system from OS X Server is also very easy to do and allows for an install of the current OS created from the downloaded Lion installer.

DeaconGraves
Jun 21, 2011, 01:57 PM
If the email is fake or not is besides the point. There is no official way to install it on a new HDD without Snow Leopard.

Really? So you have a Gold Master version of Lion lying around? Cool bro.

BruiserB
Jun 21, 2011, 01:58 PM
Another reason to wait for Lion's release to get my new iMac. Pre-loaded.

If you get a new Mac pre-loaded, will that version of Lion count as an app-store purchase to allow you to re-download Lion for other Macs you own? Or is there a way to create the install disk from the new Mac's partition?

blackcrayon
Jun 21, 2011, 01:59 PM
If it fails on a iMac you cant replace the HDD anyway so doesn't matter. Probably all Macs will ship with un-replaceable HHD's

There's no way the Mac Pro will ever be like that, and unlikely the Macbook Pro will be (we have a while before the next update anyway ;)

Yankee617
Jun 21, 2011, 01:59 PM
Surely you can't be serious.


I'm fed up with these insults. Tell me, why do you think I can't be serious?

-- Shirley

haravikk
Jun 21, 2011, 02:01 PM
I think some of this is over-reaction; Snow Leopard will only be required if your machine isn't usable, and therefore needs to be started up by disk, otherwise the first part of the Lion installation should be all that's needed since it'll create a boot partition for the rest of the process, from which a disk erasure may be performed.

All newer machines will presumably have a disk-based copy of Lion as a restore disk.

Therefore, the only problem is for machines that originally came with Leopard, and have no upgraded to Snow Leopard, but wish to upgrade to Lion. Unless a Mac App Store client becomes available for these machines then they'll need Snow Leopard first, or to get a copy from a machine with Snow Leopard on it (might be possible to use a friend's machine or such since the license is fairly liberal, so you can authorise their machine, download Lion, de-authorise the machine and take the copy home).

Vol7ron
Jun 21, 2011, 02:01 PM
I guess the real question comes once new laptops and or desktops are released without any media and your hard drive dies. How then do we reinstall the OS? SL discs won't work at that point. This will be interesting to see their response on how exactly they plan for disaster recovery of a hard drive or SSD failure.

pika2000
Jun 21, 2011, 02:01 PM
This is extremely un-Apple like. This would make more sense if it came from Microsoft. Apple already figured out how to put OS X on a USB stick (ala SL on the Macbook Air), so I can't think why they wouldn't allow that on Lion. A quick 1 button process to create a bootable USB key is good enough. I hope this is just a wording game, just like how Apple said that you require Leopard to upgrade to Snow Leopard, while in reality you can simply boot from the Snow Leopard DVD and do a clean install without having Leopard.

jive turkey
Jun 21, 2011, 02:02 PM
I'll bet my next MBP that this is a fraud and Jobs never wrote that response.

robeddie
Jun 21, 2011, 02:02 PM
Step 1: Get a job.
Step 2: Buy a new mac.
Step 3: End.


:apple:

I assume you're trying to be funny. Obviously not a very 'green' solution - to trash a computer just because the weakest link (the hard drive) fails.

joshrholloway
Jun 21, 2011, 02:02 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

I think NetBoot will get upgraded to go to the interwebz.

Interesting thought, and I just noticed something ó the heading of the section discussing recovery partitions in Lion is called "Internet Restore and Utilities".

Perhaps this is the "elegant" solution we've been looking for in this thread.

frunkis54
Jun 21, 2011, 02:02 PM
Could the reason also be to install SL first is it will intall ilife on your computer also where as if you have a bootable version of Lion it will be missing?

Kyahx
Jun 21, 2011, 02:03 PM
If you get a new Mac pre-loaded, will that version of Lion count as an app-store purchase to allow you to re-download Lion for other Macs you own? Or is there a way to create the install disk from the new Mac's partition?

No one will know until those machines are released, but I would assume that the restore media that comes with new Lion systems would be locked to that make and model of Mac (just like all current Snow Leopard restore media is).

To upgrade an existing Mac, you will be told to buy the Lion upgrade (again, just like to upgrade an existing Leopard mac, you have to buy the Snow Leopard upgrade).

PigsOnTheWing
Jun 21, 2011, 02:03 PM
There is no official way to install it on a new HDD without Snow Leopard.
For all we know Apple will release a Knowledge Base document upon the release of Lion telling people to do exactly what several of us have already stated in this topic.

solace
Jun 21, 2011, 02:03 PM
It does seem like you can run disk utility from the recovery partition and reinstall the operating system. but if you put in a blank drive you will have to either have this recovery on an external or do the 10.6 to 10.7 path...

not true. i wiped my drive completely (repartitioned to 1 partition) booting off of a DVD i made of Lion DP4 and it installed just fine.

Anaemik
Jun 21, 2011, 02:04 PM
From Apple (http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/features.html#internetrestore):

OS X Lion includes a built-in restore partition, allowing you to repair or reinstall OS X without the need for discs

Why is this post getting voted down so badly? What am I missing? The answer is right there in black and white on the Apple website.

funkyfresh69
Jun 21, 2011, 02:04 PM
I'll bet my next MBP that this is a fraud and Jobs never wrote that response.
+1

Iíll bet my current one too..

ten-oak-druid
Jun 21, 2011, 02:06 PM
For crying out loud if this rumor IS true then what are people complaining about reinstalling the OS on computers purchased with Lion for? Every Mac comes with an installation disk. A new Mac will either come with SL for this purpose OR a restore disk.

Get your heads on straight people.

And both SL and Lion are pretty cheap. If you didn't get SL yet then you might as well now. It is still cheaper to get both at current prices than it used to be for an OS. Go visit the Apple Store and get it over with now.

Probably there are many files in SL Os that do not require upgrading when Lion is installed. I would guess that is why the upgrades are cheaper than they used to be.

daneoni
Jun 21, 2011, 02:08 PM
Why is this post getting voted down so badly? What am I missing? The answer is right there in black and white on the Apple website.

What happens when your HDD dies? The replacement drive won't have anything on it so how does Lion get put on?

jeznav
Jun 21, 2011, 02:08 PM
I call BS.

1. You can create a DVD install by burning the DMG file stored in Install Lion.app. When you boot the DVD, it can cleanly install to a new hard drive, no Snow Leopard required.

2. The email 'SJ' posted seems made-up. You cannot mis-spell the word 'Leopaard' on an iOS device unless you turn off that spellcheck feature.

sclawis300
Jun 21, 2011, 02:08 PM
I wonder how many people are really running Leopard though for this to be a problem? I am sure the majority are PPC people, especially for the $29 it cost for SL.

Also, who knows, perhaps Apple will put Leopard and SL on the Mac store if this snowballs out of control. No reason why THEY CANT do that.

This makes no sense. Why on earth would they put Leopard or SL on the MAS if you have to have SL in the first place to get on it?

Kyahx
Jun 21, 2011, 02:09 PM
What happens when your HDD dies? You do the same thing you do now: use the media that came with your computer.

Anaemik
Jun 21, 2011, 02:09 PM
What happens when your HDD dies?

I would guess that for most home users the idea would be to restore from a Time Machine backup. For those that backup their data in other ways I've no doubt you can easily clone the restore partition.

For those that have no backup solution in place? I guess that remains to be seen. I find it unlikely that Apple hasn't considered this though.

Dagless
Jun 21, 2011, 02:10 PM
I'd rather have Lion on DVD, as I'm one of those people who have nothing against optical media and don't believe it's downfall is happening any time soon.

ten-oak-druid
Jun 21, 2011, 02:11 PM
What happens when your HDD dies?

According to this "rumor", you install SL and then Lion. Then you would restore from Time Machine.

Or you could have been making Clones of your drive all along and take ti all from there.

What exactly is the problem?

Go buy a SL disk if you don;t have one. And if you are buying a new computer it will have one or it will have a restore disk.

maclaptop
Jun 21, 2011, 02:11 PM
not true. i wiped my drive completely (repartitioned to 1 partition) booting off of a DVD i made of Lion DP4 and it installed just fine.

I've done this as well, and it works just like my ThinkPads.

They've had recovery partitions and the ability to burn discs for years.

There's certainly nothing "Magical and Revolutionary" about this practice.

It's so easy it's just laughable.

longofest
Jun 21, 2011, 02:11 PM
Step 1: Get a job.
Step 2: Buy a new mac.
Step 3: End.


:apple:

I hear this line of reasoning all the time, and boy does it piss me off.

Because I should spend all the money I get from my job on Apple hardware, and not little things like saving, the kid's college fund, etc.

Yes, computers have a lifespan that in my opinion is about 4 years. So, folks try to plan purchases into their budget around that schedule. If a hard drive dies at year 3, most people are more likely to replace the hard drive rather than buy a new computer a full year early, especially when money is tight.

Over 25% of Apple's Mac OS X install base is still running Leopard or prior. Apple should really consider working better with those folks.

Jawcl
Jun 21, 2011, 02:13 PM
I'm just sad about the whole digital-OS install deal. They should at least sell disks for people who don't have fast internet, or bandwidth limits.

longofest
Jun 21, 2011, 02:13 PM
According to this "rumor", you install SL and then Lion. Then you would restore from Time Machine.

Or you could have been making Clones of your drive all along and take ti all from there.

What exactly is the problem?

Go buy a SL disk if you don;t have one. And if you are buying a new computer it will have one or it will have a restore disk.

The problem is what used to be a 1-step installation process is now at least 3 steps:
1) Install Snow Leopard
2) Install updates
3) Download/install Lion from App store.

Need I mention that steps 1 and 2 can be very time consuming! This, all because Apple doesn't want to make physical media available to those who want it.

Very stupid.

ten-oak-druid
Jun 21, 2011, 02:16 PM
I hear this line of reasoning all the time, and boy does it piss me off.

Because I should spend all the money I get from my job on Apple hardware, and not little things like saving, the kid's college fund, etc.

Yes, computers have a lifespan that in my opinion is about 4 years. So, folks try to plan purchases into their budget around that schedule. If a hard drive dies at year 3, most people are more likely to replace the hard drive rather than buy a new computer a full year early, especially when money is tight.

Over 25% of Apple's Mac OS X install base is still running Leopard or prior. Apple should really consider working better with those folks.

While I agree the comment you are responding to is flippant, I find it amazing that people considering getting Lion have not upgraded to SL. It makes no sense. Get SL and use it for a while then Lion later if you don't want to get both at once. $29 for SL isn't gong to stretch the budget as much as a new hard drive would.

daneoni
Jun 21, 2011, 02:17 PM
You do the same thing you do now: use the media that came with your computer.

According to this "rumor", you install SL and then Lion. Then you would restore from Time Machine.

Or you could have been making Clones of your drive all along and take ti all from there.

What exactly is the problem?

Go buy a SL disk if you don;t have one. And if you are buying a new computer it will have one or it will have a restore disk.

So i'm running 10.7.5 with related files/apps and all of a sudden my drive dies. I now have to go back and install an outdated OS (including all updates) first, before i can get back to the current one...and this is just fine and dandy with you two?

jonnysods
Jun 21, 2011, 02:18 PM
I guess only geeks like clean installs?

I for one am a geek, and I think that pulling out an old disc to wipe clean a computer, then install that OS, then wait until that's done and install another OS? You're dreaming.

joshrholloway
Jun 21, 2011, 02:18 PM
Honestly, I think all of this is pretty moot. Let's look at this pragmatically ó almost anyone in this thread has the technical knowhow and the foresight to create their own bootable Lion install DVD or USB drive. Anyone else will just go to the Apple Store.

jowie
Jun 21, 2011, 02:19 PM
Surely you can't be serious.
I am serious, and don't call me Shirley.

mac=saif
Jun 21, 2011, 02:19 PM
I hope this does not turn out to be true, otherwise it makes no sense to switch digital transferring of media, instead of physical options. It was supposed to make things easier and faster.
In other words it would just suck to install Snow Leo on a machine which is meant for the more advance Lion.

longofest
Jun 21, 2011, 02:20 PM
You do the same thing you do now: use the media that came with your computer.

Actually no. The media that came with my computer is 10.5.3 "Leopard". Whenever I need to do a re-install, I do it from my 10.6 "Snow Leopard" disk.

Aniday
Jun 21, 2011, 02:20 PM
Herp derp people complaining and forgetting about the recovery partition Lion makes. Sure, I'd be nice to have something physical... but jeebus, there are other ways to install besides a CD.

ten-oak-druid
Jun 21, 2011, 02:20 PM
The problem is what used to be a 1-step installation process is now at least 3 steps:
1) Install Snow Leopard
2) Install updates
3) Download/install Lion from App store.

Need I mention that steps 1 and 2 can be very time consuming! This, all because Apple doesn't want to make physical media available to those who want it.

Very stupid.

Any time you are replacing a bad HD there is lost time. This is nothing new. How often do you intend to wipe your drive and go through this process?

This is just a rumor and if true it is no big deal at all.

Installation of SL is not as long as older OS's used to be. I recently did it to upgrade my HD. It took under 1 hour for SL. And then the combined updates took no time at all. The largest amount of time was getting data from time machine.

But of course this was expected. It was a day I just planned to not have my computer available. And again the reason for that was the time machine restoration. That would happen even if there was a Lion instal disk.

Mr. Gates
Jun 21, 2011, 02:20 PM
Who Likes this

And who is just defending everything Apple does blindly ?

No Disk ....is dumb

RalfTheDog
Jun 21, 2011, 02:21 PM
Then i would question how you were downloading Lion in the first place?
And how many times have you actually needed to do a clean install? i know i haven't done one for quite a few years now...

I try to do a fresh install about once a year on each of my systems (No matter the OS it is running.) It makes the systems run faster and decreases the odds that you have some malware running in the background.

What I want to know is, can you put the recovery partition on a flash drive instead of the boot drive? Recovery partitions are a great place for malware to hide. I would think the safest option would be to keep the recovery partition locked in a box and not connected to a computer until needed. If you could put it on one of the flash drives that have a read only switch, so much the better.

vampyren
Jun 21, 2011, 02:21 PM
Craziest idea ever, the first thing i do when i buy a laptop is to wipe everything and make a clean install. Same thing after 6 month of use i do a clean install for well clean-up. So not roar for me , i have to settle with white kitty instead :)

Steve: please hear your users pledge and dont do anything crazy like this now.

ten-oak-druid
Jun 21, 2011, 02:22 PM
So i'm running 10.7.5 with related files/apps and all of a sudden my drive dies. I now have to go back and install an outdated OS (including all updates) first, before i can get back to the current one...and this is just fine and dandy with you two?

Yes installing SL is a small fraction of the time your restoration from time machine will take.

Do you plan to do this weekly?

Winni
Jun 21, 2011, 02:22 PM
It could be argued that OSís should not be downloads; that itís too soon to make that leap. Since Iím not a modem user, I disagree and welcome this (very slightly rough) transition away from coffee coasters! :)

The Linux world has been using OS downloads for more than 15 years now - and you coukd always create a boot medium for clean installations with Linux. Apple's approach is inferior in comparison and its only purpose is to lock customers into the AppStore. It's that simple.

Kyahx
Jun 21, 2011, 02:23 PM
So i'm running 10.7.5 with related files/apps and all of a sudden my drive dies. I now have to go back and install an outdated OS (including all updates) first, before i can get back to the current one...and this is just fine and dandy with you two?

If you are using Time machine for backups -- you can restore the entire drive (include OS 10.7.5) via the Time machine utility off of the DVD -- even using a 10.6 Install DVD.

If you are not using Time Machine then I assume you are using something that makes a bootable backup like SuperDuper! and you don't have a problem anyways.

If you are not using any backup system, then yes you are looking at a long project and yes...I'm fine with that (because in that situation it would be me own fault for NOT having a backup plan in place.)

Dicx
Jun 21, 2011, 02:23 PM
Apple has to do it this way. It is the only way to get people used to the fact of using the App Store for everything.

The only way they will be able to sell their next rev of the MacBooks without optical drives.

Drop the reliance, embrace the new systems.

djrod
Jun 21, 2011, 02:24 PM
I think this is only for current SL users, SJ is answering that if you have a mac now and want to do a clean install you need to do a clean SL install, download and install Lion from the Mac App Store

For new machines with Lion preinstalled that want to reinstall the OS I suppose you'll have to use the Recovery Partition to restore from TimeMachine or re-downloading Lion.

Anyway, i'm pretty sure everybody will be able to make a DVD/USB/SD from the Lion "app" as you can do it now from the developer previews

peterski
Jun 21, 2011, 02:24 PM
How is this a "clean" install, when after installing Snow Leopard I have to enter my Apple ID to download Lion..? might as well just save time and wipe out my home directory, applications folder, and uugh, this will be a pain in the behind.

I'm not sure I believe the email and it's silly answer... Apple after all is after the positive user experience, and this sure doesn't fall under the category.

lilo777
Jun 21, 2011, 02:24 PM
Apple have always been a weird company but now they are becoming weirder faster.

longofest
Jun 21, 2011, 02:25 PM
Apple has got to be hearing all of us griping about this asinine way of upgrading from pre-snow leopard or re-installing from dead HD. Wouldn't it be funny if they came out in a week or so and said that they were in fact going to supply media to those who ask?

It's kind of like how Apple handled the iPhone4 issue... people went nuts over the antenna issues, Apple came out and said "it's no big deal, but because we're so great, we're going to give you a free case." To those who aren't used to getting out of Steve's RDF, Apple comes out looking like geniuses and a great company...

RalfTheDog
Jun 21, 2011, 02:26 PM
Who Likes this

And who is just defending everything Apple does blindly ?

No Disk ....is dumb

Show me a way to download a physical DVD and I will agree. This is only for people who are restoring from a dead system and have not copied their restore partition. If you have a live system, download the installer, make it into a bootable DVD, then install from that disk.

No mater what, after install, copy your restore partition to a flash drive.

djrod
Jun 21, 2011, 02:26 PM
Craziest idea ever, the first thing i do when i buy a laptop is to wipe everything and make a clean install. Same thing after 6 month of use i do a clean install for well clean-up. So not roar for me , i have to settle with white kitty instead :)

Steve: please hear your users pledge and dont do anything crazy like this now.

Why would you like to do that? :confused::confused:

These are Macs, not Windows laptops full of unwanted bad software preinstalled on them.

Also, that 6 month cleaning thing is way beyond insanity, I've been using my mac since Leopard on a Mac Mini, and I have allways moved my user to the new Mac, never formated or anything and it works like a charm.

There is no need to do that

Deflorator
Jun 21, 2011, 02:27 PM
Thats so unApple-ish... i have hard time to believe this.

longofest
Jun 21, 2011, 02:27 PM
Any time you are replacing a bad HD there is lost time. This is nothing new. How often do you intend to wipe your drive and go through this process?

This is just a rumor and if true it is no big deal at all.

Installation of SL is not as long as older OS's used to be. I recently did it to upgrade my HD. It took under 1 hour for SL. And then the combined updates took no time at all. The largest amount of time was getting data from time machine.

But of course this was expected. It was a day I just planned to not have my computer available. And again the reason for that was the time machine restoration. That would happen even if there was a Lion instal disk.

As much as you tried to make your own point, I think you just made mine.

iBug2
Jun 21, 2011, 02:29 PM
People should stop going nutz over this.

As we have posted before, hundreds of times by now, you can create a bootable Lion install DVD using the Lion installer which comes from App Store.

So you will NOT need a SL install to install Lion.

If this email is indeed genuine, then that means the method I described above is not in the support policy of Apple.

I have installed Lion twice by now on a machine with a wiped clean hard disk using the above method.

scottsjack
Jun 21, 2011, 02:30 PM
Doesn't Lion and Final Cut X really boil down to the Apple Closed System? Sure you might still be able to install software from Adobe or Intuit in the future basically everything thing else will be with everything filtered through the App Store and available on your Apple authorized hardware.

While just the opposite of what I want many novice and casual users will be well taken care of with the closed system, just like they are with the iOS devices.

djrod
Jun 21, 2011, 02:31 PM
BTW: "You are installing it wrong"ô :p

Jerome Morrow
Jun 21, 2011, 02:31 PM
People should stop going nutz over this.

As we have posted before, hundreds of times by now, you can create a bootable Lion install DVD using the Lion installer which comes from App Store.

So you will NOT need a SL install to install Lion.

If this email is indeed genuine, then that means the method I described above is not in the support policy of Apple.

I have installed Lion twice by now on a machine with a wiped clean hard disk using the above method.

I did it 4 times, 3 on iMac and 1 on MacBook. It works the same way Snow Leopard install works. If you want to upgrade you just go "next, next …", but you can also use Disk Utility to wipe disk clean. If the disk is new and empty so of course you can go "next, next …" too.

Non issue.

davmcn
Jun 21, 2011, 02:31 PM
If I had to do a Reinstall of Leopard, then Install 4GB's of updates, then go to and download another 4GB Lion install to reinstall Lion. I think I might hold off on getting a Macbook Pro, and stay with my HP laptop for a while.

You've lost a customer Apple.

Mr. Gates
Jun 21, 2011, 02:32 PM
Show me a way to download a physical DVD and I will agree. This is only for people who are restoring from a dead system and have not copied their restore partition. If you have a live system, download the installer, make it into a bootable DVD, then install from that disk.

No mater what, after install, copy your restore partition to a flash drive.

Thing is, tell my mother that.

We're not talking about the people on this forum

To the average consumer this is too complicated.

Actually, I just don't like it.

I know Apple is really exited about their App store, but don't shove it down our thoughts Apple !

Kyahx
Jun 21, 2011, 02:33 PM
Actually no. The media that came with my computer is 10.5.3 "Leopard". Whenever I need to do a re-install, I do it from my 10.6 "Snow Leopard" disk.

So that means are you already comfortable with ignoring the method Apple officially supports and doing whatever works best for you (which is fine). In which case you can be a person who burns your own Lion DVD and installs it that way. Easy.

Just because you *can* do it that way doesn't mean it is the support method. On the flip side, just because one way is the officially supported way doesn't mean you HAVE to go that route.

RalfTheDog
Jun 21, 2011, 02:33 PM
What I dread is finding all my install DVDs unregistering all my software, digging my PGP keys out of the safe, writing 0's my boot drives, then after the OS and software reinstalls, reincrypting all my boot drives. The Snow Leopard bit will be the least of my problems.

PS. My bet is, the next OS will be named Snow Lion.

ten-oak-druid
Jun 21, 2011, 02:34 PM
Any beta testers? How long does an installation of Lion take?

For myself SL takes about 30-40 minutes on a 2009 laptop.
The updates take less than that.
The time machine restoration takes almost a day - lots of media.

How much time does Lion add to the process? I can't imagine it being an extra half an hour.

I swear the people making a big deal about this are a bunch of concern trolls or the biggest whiners I've ever seen. Who expects replacing a hard drive to be no time at all? No one unless it is an install with no prior data ported over.

And how often do you do expect to do this?

Usually when I go through this it is because I'm upgrading to a larger drive and the benefit of the larger drive outweighs the loss of one day use of my computer.

benthewraith
Jun 21, 2011, 02:35 PM
:D

you can do that, or wait for some ISO release, USB install, etc.
From apple or from another respetable source as tpb

I'd trust Demonoid over The Pirate Bay.

Mr. Gates
Jun 21, 2011, 02:35 PM
People should stop going nutz over this.

As we have posted before, hundreds of times by now, you can create a bootable Lion install DVD using the Lion installer which comes from App Store.

So you will NOT need a SL install to install Lion.

If this email is indeed genuine, then that means the method I described above is not in the support policy of Apple.

I have installed Lion twice by now on a machine with a wiped clean hard disk using the above method.

So....

Exactly how do you get to the App store to download this when you have a crashed hard drive,..bought a new one and are trying to install the OS ?

ten-oak-druid
Jun 21, 2011, 02:36 PM
As much as you tried to make your own point, I think you just made mine.

Your point was that installing SL is a minimal amount of extra time? Great. We are in agreement. This is no big deal at all.

Jerome Morrow
Jun 21, 2011, 02:36 PM
Any beta testers? How long does an installation of Lion take?

For myself SL takes about 30-40 minutes on a 2009 laptop.
The updates take less than that.
The time machine restoration takes almost a day - lots of media.

How much time does Lion add to the process? I can't imagine it being an extra half an hour.

I swear the people making a big deal about this are a bunch of concern trolls or the biggest whiners I've ever seen. Who expects replacing a hard drive to be no time at all? No one unless it is an install with no prior data ported over.

And how often do you do expect to do this?

Usually when I go through this it is because I'm upgrading to a larger drive and the benefit of the larger drive outweighs the loss of one day use of my computer.

On a C2D iMac it was ~20 minutes. I didn't time it, but it felt like ~20 minutes.

RalfTheDog
Jun 21, 2011, 02:36 PM
Thing is, tell my mother that.

We're not talking about the people on this forum

To the average consumer this is too complicated.

Actually, I just don't like it.

I know Apple is really exited about their App store, but don't shove it down our thoughts Apple !

Resisting the temptation to tell a Your Mother joke.

I would hope that the install process would have some kind of, "Back up your restore partition" button.

yourstation
Jun 21, 2011, 02:37 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

This is inaccurate. You only need a disc such as slow leopard of you system is completely down. If you have lion you can burn a bootable disc from the image inside the lion package contents. Apple will likely be supporting a separate 'boot partition' for OS and commonly cached files as developed on some intel chips in future so a disc may not be needed down the line anyhow.

Kyahx
Jun 21, 2011, 02:37 PM
Thing is, tell my mother that.
We're not talking about the people on this forum
To the average consumer this is too complicated.

The average consumer also dosen't replace their own hard drive when it fails or reinstall their OS. They take their machine to the store or call one of the kinds of people on this forum.

In which case, we are back to saying "It's not that complicated to show the contents of the Installer.app and burn your own DVD."

Jasoco
Jun 21, 2011, 02:37 PM
For the love of Christ, people. It says you CAN install Snow Leopard first if you have no other alternative.

You can ALSO have a bootable clone of your OS to boot from.

You can ALSO burn the Lion ISO to a DVD or a Flash drive or a separate partition or an SD card and boot from it.

And for people who need to reinstall but aren't replacing the drive, you will be able to boot into the recovery partition and install from there.

There are other ways of installing it. You don't HAVE to by Snow Leopard. And anyone who buys a new Mac after Lion comes out will have a physical recovery disc or flash drive (Time will tell which one) to install from.

My God I can't believe how stupid some of you people think Apple is. They aren't MAKING you buy Snow Leopard and install it. They're saying "If you need to replace the drive and you don't happen to have one of the above mentioned methods available, you can install Snow Leopard and install from there if you want to."

Seriously. Geeze. Way to make a big deal out of nothing MacRumors. For Pete's sake.

Personally, I will either go the "use a bootable clone and install from there" or the "buy a cheap ass 4-8GB Flash drive and burn the Lion ISO directly to it" option. I suggest you all do the same.

iBug2
Jun 21, 2011, 02:38 PM
Any beta testers? How long does an installation of Lion take?

For myself SL takes about 30-40 minutes on a 2009 laptop.
The updates take less than that.
The time machine restoration takes almost a day - lots of media.

How much time does Lion add to the process? I can't imagine it being an extra half an hour.

I swear the people making a big deal about this are a bunch of concern trolls or the biggest whiners I've ever seen. Who expects replacing a hard drive to be no time at all? No one unless it is an install with no prior data ported over.

And how often do you do expect to do this?

Usually when I go through this it is because I'm upgrading to a larger drive and the benefit of the larger drive outweighs the loss of one day use of my computer.

8-9 minutes but I always install from SATA. So around the same as SL takes from SATA.

garbeth
Jun 21, 2011, 02:38 PM
This is the way it should be. People shouldn't be messing with the original way Apple designed it by putting in extra crap. It's perfect as is. :apple:

You have got to be having a laugh right?

Kyahx
Jun 21, 2011, 02:40 PM
So....

Exactly how do you get to the App store to download this when you have a crashed hard drive,..bought a new one and are trying to install the OS ?

The same way you back up all your personal data after your drive dies. (You don't)

Plan ahead.

BenRoethig
Jun 21, 2011, 02:40 PM
Wouldn't it make more sense to just have a "Create Install Disk" function built into the OS?

Yes it would (and hopefully there will be when they discover how stupid this is)

Steve Jobs doesn't know a thing about Lion. He only cares about iOS.

That probably has an element of truth. He has a tendency only to focus on the future, not the present. In many ways, Apple is like his own personal experiment.

ten-oak-druid
Jun 21, 2011, 02:40 PM
On a C2D iMac it was ~20 minutes. I didn't time it, but it felt like ~20 minutes.

8-9 minutes but I always install from SATA. So around the same as SL takes from SATA.

Thanks for the info!

So basically restoring Lion to a new HD will take the same amount of time as restoring SL currently would plus about 10-20 minutes.

Not a big deal at all.

In all scenarios the Time Machine restoration is the long step that eats up the day.

Ijustfarted
Jun 21, 2011, 02:40 PM
lol this is so effin stupid. very unApple like indeed

3bs
Jun 21, 2011, 02:41 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

When I upgrade to lion will I lose all the files I have on my laptop?

sclawis300
Jun 21, 2011, 02:41 PM
Am I the only one to find this suspect?

Am I the only one that reads other comments? you are not the only person to say that.

stanton
Jun 21, 2011, 02:42 PM
Anyway, i'm pretty sure everybody will be able to make a DVD/USB/SD from the Lion "app" as you can do it now from the developer previews

That's exactly what I was thinking.... Currently you download the Application, locate the Disk image, and just burn a copy to a blank DVD. Other than that the installation wasn't much different than Snow Leopard. I would think that they might even add a burn to disk option to the installer once it's out to the public. The only difference I can see so far is that Apple will require that you have a current Apple computer to purchase Lion, which was always apart of the EULAs anyways. :eek:

milo
Jun 21, 2011, 02:42 PM
I'm in disbelief about this one - either this email is bogus or Jobs hastily sent out a bad answer. I just can't imagine that Apple would be that stupid, but I guess we'll see. Maybe if there's enough backlash Apple will add an option for bootable images before release if it's not in there already.

Itís a downloadable OS. Would you expect a new install on a non-bootable drive to not require any media at all?

I would expect exactly what you mention later in your post:

I suppose Apple could have a way to make your own emergency disc ďjust in case,"

I still don't believe that Apple would ship this without a way to do that. It would be simple enough, just an option in the installer that asks to insert a blank DVD or allows selecting a thumb drive.

Or would you expect it to require something other than the Snow Leopard disc that you had to have before you bought Lion anyway?

Yes. Particularly in the case of machines that shipped with 10.7 and wouldn't include a 10.6 disk. Will those machines come with anything to boot from?

jeff33702
Jun 21, 2011, 02:42 PM
Makes Lion feel like more of an "add-on" as opposed to a stand-alone operating system.

Kyahx
Jun 21, 2011, 02:42 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

When I upgrade to lion will I lose all the files I have on my laptop?

Of course not.

Not that it would matter if you did...you DO have an up-to-date Time Machine backup right? :)

Samsumac
Jun 21, 2011, 02:43 PM
Such a dumb solution in cleanly installing an OS.... But then again its Ios this and that these days, and the great icloud evil spy......

Jasoco
Jun 21, 2011, 02:43 PM
lol this is so effin stupid. very unApple like indeed

Read my post above. This MacRumors article is filled with FUD. That's just ONE of a few methods you can use to reinstall onto a new drive. One of a FEW methods.

It says "Can", people. Not "have to".

longofest
Jun 21, 2011, 02:43 PM
Just because you *can* do it that way doesn't mean it is the support method.

Can you link to an Apple knowledge-base article that says you have to always re-install using the media that came with your computer, and using a retail OS disk is not supported by Apple?

3bs
Jun 21, 2011, 02:44 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

When I upgrade to lion will I lose all the files I have on my laptop?

Of course not.

Not that it would matter if you did...you DO have an up-to-date Time Machine backup right? :)

I dont

sclawis300
Jun 21, 2011, 02:44 PM
Everyone seems to be forgetting that, once Lion is released, not only will the OS be installed on the machine but the chances are that Apple will also provide a USB drive - just like on the MB-Air - but across all their products. If they really want to phase out the use of discs for their OS's, then it makes perfect sense that they use the same USB drive for each of their products.

Not if they are trying to phase out physical media. Wasn't that the main point, not just discs, but all physical media.

Takeo
Jun 21, 2011, 02:44 PM
Thing is, tell my mother that.

Your mother? Mothers don't reinstall operating systems. Hard enough to get them to keep their web browser up to date. More likely scenario is that you get a phone call something like... "This thing keeps popping up telling me that my computer has software updates and it wants me to click something. Can you come over and fix it for me?"

djrod
Jun 21, 2011, 02:45 PM
So....

Exactly how do you get to the App store to download this when you have a crashed hard drive,..bought a new one and are trying to install the OS ?

Good question indeed, let's hope there is an option to create a Recovery partition on an USB.

http://flash-drive-info.com/wp-content/plugins/rss-poster/cache/2231a_LionRecoverytools.jpg

Arcus
Jun 21, 2011, 02:46 PM
You only have to do it once, because once Lion is installed, it will put a recovery partition on the hard disk. So you won't need a disc after the initial install.


Yes because hard drive controllers never fail. /sarcasm