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MacRumors
Jun 22, 2011, 10:38 AM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/22/samsungs-request-to-see-iphone-5-and-ipad-3-denied/)


For nearly a month now, we've been following Samsung's request (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/28/samsungs-lawyers-demand-to-see-iphone-and-ipad-3/) for access to Apple's next-generation iPhone and iPad hardware, a move obviously made in retaliation for Apple having demanded (and received (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/24/apple-granted-access-to-unreleased-samsung-hardware-in-patent-suit/)) access to unreleased, albeit publicly-shown, Samsung hardware as part of the legal battle between the two companies.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/06/samsung_logo.jpg


As noted by FOSS Patents (http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/06/samsung-has-to-wait-for-ipad-3-and.html), a federal judge has now ruled that Apple does not have to turn its plans for the next-generation iOS hardware over to Samsung's lawyers.

The judge also ruled, however, that there is some merit to Samsung's claims that its own forthcoming devices claimed to be infringing on Apple's designs should be compared to Apple's next-generation hardware as opposed to the current-generation hardware, particularly in the case of the iPhone. With Apple expected to be releasing the next-generation iPhone within the next few months, the judge notes that the potential for customer confusion should be gauged against products on the market at the same time.Samsung is free to argue, for instance, that there is little likelihood of confusion because consumers will not encounter its products side-by-side with the iPhone 4 or iPad 2, but rather with Apple's next generation iPhone and iPad. Similarly, as to proximity, Samsung is free to argue that because the iPhone 4 and [iPad] 2 will soon be outmoded and reduced in price, they are not being sold (or very soon will not be sold) to the same class of purchasers who are likely to buy new Samsung products. By choosing to allege infringement only of its current products, Apple opens itself up to these arguments.But while the judge admits that aspect of Samsung's argument, her ruling also reveals that she is unconvinced of an imminent release of new hardware from Apple, particularly in the case of the next-generation iPad. And regardless of Apple's timeline for a hardware release, Samsung's case does not hinge upon receiving early access to Apple's unannounced devices.

Article Link: Samsung's Request to See iPhone 5 and iPad 3 Denied (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/22/samsungs-request-to-see-iphone-5-and-ipad-3-denied/)



nwcs
Jun 22, 2011, 10:43 AM
Not surprising that the judge ruled that way. I wonder what will happen with the new patents being approved, etc.? I wouldn't be surprised to see a behind the scenes settlement.

ouimetnick
Jun 22, 2011, 10:44 AM
Guess Apple won't feel "harassed" anymore.:cool:

I do agree with the Judge that the products need to be compared against current shipping devices. Otherwise Samsung, might "accidentally" copy Apple some more.

*LTD*
Jun 22, 2011, 10:44 AM
No surprise.

Samsung requested to see products that didn't exist. What exactly were they thinking?

dethmaShine
Jun 22, 2011, 10:45 AM
Now that the people have claimed that Apple was being ridiculous and Samsung was right, I guess the judge is mad too, and/or an Apple fanboy and/or not a judge at all.

^This.

/s

IzzyJG99
Jun 22, 2011, 10:48 AM
http://www.tacomaworld.com/gallery/data/500/nelson-muntz.gif

justinfreid
Jun 22, 2011, 10:50 AM
My guess is that nearly every single consumer, any person looking to purchase an Apple product, would know, without any doubt that unless you see an :apple: it's not one of Steve Jobs' creations.
Samsung may have infringed upon some of Apple's patents, even while they were supplying many of the components Apple was using to build those products, but the argument that a hypothetical consumer could mistake a Samsung phone for an iPhone falls flat.
Wouldn't Apple's marketing department make that argument? Maybe Samsung will subpoena Phil Shiller and see if can at once claim that he's good at his job and that there's room for error in the average consumer's mind about what constitutes an Apple iPhone versus a Samsung Whatever-Silly-Noun-or-Adjective.

ouimetnick
Jun 22, 2011, 10:53 AM
No surprise.

Samsung requested to see products that didn't exist. What exactly were they thinking?

I'm sure Apple has a working prototype of the iPhone 5, and a Prototype of the next iPad in their labs.. Are you going to say that when the iPhone 3GS was the main iPhone, the next iPhone didn't exist? Well thats wrong, because a clumsy Engineer left it behind in a bar.... and it was indeed the next iPhone!:rolleyes:

coojo28
Jun 22, 2011, 11:01 AM
No surprise.

Samsung requested to see products that didn't exist. What exactly were they thinking?

No kidding. If there was an iPhone 5 they usually launch in JULY. as have all of the rest of the previous models. Also, it was leaked every year in MARCH before the release of any of the devices. MARCH 2011... NOTHING.. same is going to be for JULY.. NOTHING. NO IPHONE 5.

If APPLE wants to get a hold on SAMSUNG they need to make devices FOLLOWING AT&T's formula for service and not making their own. Samsung was on 4G first. as soon as we lauch LTE all of out non-apple products for AT&T will be 10x faster. Apple DOESNT even have that compatibility for IP4. its just a fancy paperweight, for all Im concerned. the best device by far has been the 3GS.

Seanozz
Jun 22, 2011, 11:02 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Mobile/8J2)

My guess is that nearly every single consumer, any person looking to purchase an Apple product, would know, without any doubt that unless you see an :apple: it's not one of Steve Jobs' creations.
Samsung may have infringed upon some of Apple's patents, even while they were supplying many of the components Apple was using to build those products, but the argument that a hypothetical consumer could mistake a Samsung phone for an iPhone falls flat.
Wouldn't Apple's marketing department make that argument? Maybe Samsung will subpoena Phil Shiller and see if can at once claim that he's good at his job and that there's room for error in the average consumer's mind about what constitutes an Apple iPhone versus a Samsung Whatever-Silly-Noun-or-Adjective.

You wouldn't say that if u realized how dumb the average consumer actually is.

Do you know how many people actually used to use cd trays in early tower computers as drink holders?

You really think that caliber of consumer might not get confused. Lol

*LTD*
Jun 22, 2011, 11:05 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Mobile/8J2)



You wouldn't say that if u realized how dumb the average consumer actually is.

Do you know how many people actually used to use cd trays in early tower computers as drink holders?

You really think that caliber of consumer might not get confused. Lol

Yup. ;)

http://blogs.howtogeek.com/mysticgeek/files/2007/11/kingsizehomermain.jpg

colmaclean
Jun 22, 2011, 11:05 AM
Samsung really must stop reading too much into Rumsfeld's "known unknowns" theory.

EnergonCube
Jun 22, 2011, 11:41 AM
Never underestimate the stupidity of mankind.


My guess is that nearly every single consumer, any person looking to purchase an Apple product, would know, without any doubt that unless you see an :apple: it's not one of Steve Jobs' creations.
Samsung may have infringed upon some of Apple's patents, even while they were supplying many of the components Apple was using to build those products, but the argument that a hypothetical consumer could mistake a Samsung phone for an iPhone falls flat.
Wouldn't Apple's marketing department make that argument? Maybe Samsung will subpoena Phil Shiller and see if can at once claim that he's good at his job and that there's room for error in the average consumer's mind about what constitutes an Apple iPhone versus a Samsung Whatever-Silly-Noun-or-Adjective.

cmaier
Jun 22, 2011, 12:01 PM
Told ya so.

JoEw
Jun 22, 2011, 12:24 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Mobile/8J2)



You wouldn't say that if u realized how dumb the average consumer actually is.

Do you know how many people actually used to use cd trays in early tower computers as drink holders?

You really think that caliber of consumer might not get confused. Lol

totally agree :p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hJXS0eCEKA

SockRolid
Jun 22, 2011, 12:29 PM
After Apple's infringement suit was lodged, I'm sure Samsung's top brass went to their legal department and said "What can we do to make it look like we're fighting back?"

The result? A nuisance suit that only had PR value.

IzzyJG99
Jun 22, 2011, 01:24 PM
Yup. ;)

Image (http://blogs.howtogeek.com/mysticgeek/files/2007/11/kingsizehomermain.jpg)

Don't forget that the Tab button dispenses Tab Cola!

Ah, Tab. Diet Rite, RC Cola and Tab....remind me of my Grandmother. Gross.

ivladster
Jun 22, 2011, 01:38 PM
I'm sure Apple has a working prototype of the iPhone 5, and a Prototype of the next iPad in their labs.. Are you going to say that when the iPhone 3GS was the main iPhone, the next iPhone didn't exist? Well thats wrong, because a clumsy Engineer left it behind in a bar.... and it was indeed the next iPhone!:rolleyes:

Things that are not publicly released are hypothetical and not real. That's what he meant. I am sure Apple have plans for next 3 iPhones but that's no way at any final stage to even consider a real product.

ten-oak-druid
Jun 22, 2011, 01:44 PM
Samsung is pathetic. At least this branch of Samsung is.

Samsung really must stop reading too much into Rumsfeld's "known unknowns" theory.

LOL

Samsung's creativity is somewhere north, south, east or west of Cupertino.

Mad Mac Maniac
Jun 22, 2011, 02:40 PM
My guess is that nearly every single consumer, any person looking to purchase an Apple product, would know, without any doubt that unless you see an :apple: it's not one of Steve Jobs' creations.
Samsung may have infringed upon some of Apple's patents, even while they were supplying many of the components Apple was using to build those products, but the argument that a hypothetical consumer could mistake a Samsung phone for an iPhone falls flat.
Wouldn't Apple's marketing department make that argument? Maybe Samsung will subpoena Phil Shiller and see if can at once claim that he's good at his job and that there's room for error in the average consumer's mind about what constitutes an Apple iPhone versus a Samsung Whatever-Silly-Noun-or-Adjective.

As stated consumers are ill-informed. A lot of people don't care about the company. It doesn't matter to them if it's made by Apple or Samsung, or IKEA. They just want that phone their friend showed them. Or that phone on the commercials. Oh this one looks like it, I'll take it.

justinfreid
Jun 22, 2011, 04:05 PM
Never underestimate the stupidity of mankind.
You wouldn't say that if u realized how dumb the average consumer actually is. Do you know how many people actually used to use cd trays in early tower computers as drink holders?
You really think that caliber of consumer might not get confused. Lol
As stated consumers are ill-informed. A lot of people don't care about the company. It doesn't matter to them if it's made by Apple or Samsung, or IKEA. They just want that phone their friend showed them. Or that phone on the commercials. Oh this one looks like it, I'll take it.

Is that really your point of view on consumer behavior?
First, how many people that have ever posted to MacRumors are so "ill-informed" that they wouldn't know an Apple product from a non-Apple one? Certainly someone out there knows something about what they're buying.
Don't you think people have an idea about even the brand of shoes they're wearing? How could Apple have ever been successful if consumers can't differentiate between it as a brand and Samsung or Sony or whoever? They'd just wonder like zombies through malls, pick up any laptop that they see, ignore the words or logos on it and say it was manufactured by company X?

Many posters who are convinced that the average consumer is a no-nothing idiot seems more to be reveling in their own perceived superiority to that person rather than actually engaging on the topic. Wiser people might acknowledge instead that an average person wouldn't know instinctively looking at the front of a Samsung touchscreen smartphone and an Apple one who made it and discuss the implications of that.
Even a person who has no idea of the features of an iPhone, part of the 50% who never synced it and still doesn't know you can email photos from the phone, can figure out who made it.
What does the name SAMSUNG written across a product mean?
What is the marketing department at Apple for?

winston1236
Jun 22, 2011, 08:17 PM
After Apple's infringement suit was lodged, I'm sure Samsung's top brass went to their legal department and said "What can we do to make it look like we're fighting back?"

The result? A nuisance suit that only had PR value.

agreed

ten-oak-druid
Jun 22, 2011, 11:34 PM
http://www.handtec.co.uk/shopimages/products/normal/Samsung-Galaxy-Tab-USB-Cable-M.jpg

IvanTheBearable
Jun 23, 2011, 12:18 AM
Is that really your point of view on consumer behavior?

...

Don't you think people have an idea about even the brand of shoes they're wearing?

...

Even a person who has no idea of the features of an iPhone, part of the 50% who never synced it and still doesn't know you can email photos from the phone, can figure out who made it.


I can't comment on the average phone buyer but I can tell you about one phone buyer (a friend of mine) who purchased an Android phone (I forget which one) thinking she was buying an iPhone. The fact that it had a touch interface was all she needed to make the connection. She would most certainly know what brand of shoe she is wearing but, when it comes to technology she switches off. I'm the other way around. I wouldn't have a clue what brand my shoes are.

MacinDoc
Jun 23, 2011, 12:44 AM
Is that really your point of view on consumer behavior?
First, how many people that have ever posted to MacRumors are so "ill-informed" that they wouldn't know an Apple product from a non-Apple one?
The people posting on Macrumors in no way represent the typical consumer.
What is the marketing department at Apple for?
The purpose of Apple's marketing department is to convince consumers that Apple's products are different from Samsung's. Conversely, the purpose of Samsung's marketing department is to convince consumers that they aren't. That's the essence of this lawsuit - Samsung's attempt to present their phones as if they are iPhones - and there are consumers out there who won't know the difference unless it is pointed out to them, since Samsung is clearly trying to cause confusion with the manner in which they are designing their phones, their OS and even their marketing campaign.

Rodimus Prime
Jun 23, 2011, 12:46 AM
Image (http://www.handtec.co.uk/shopimages/products/normal/Samsung-Galaxy-Tab-USB-Cable-M.jpg)

Yeah that one on samgsung part I though was rather stupid. I am going to guess they are not using the standard 30 pin by Apple.

Hell honestly I hate Apple 30 pin design as to many devices out there are Apple only because of it.

GabooN
Jun 23, 2011, 01:08 AM
My first thought when I first read these stories, was not that a customer might be confused into thinking a Samsung phone was an iPhone, but more along the lines of.. "well the samsung one is cheaper, and its close enough to the iphone (hardware and software) so I might as well just get the cheaper samsung one".

This thinking would apply to a lot of people I think, who are less concerned about having an iPhone and just want a 'cool smart phone'

gnasher729
Jun 23, 2011, 04:39 AM
As noted by FOSS Patents (http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/06/samsung-has-to-wait-for-ipad-3-and.html), a federal judge has now ruled that Apple does not have to turn its plans for the next-generation iOS hardware over to Samsung's lawyers.

Guys, are you _still_ looking at fosspatents? Why? The suite is run by Florian Müller, a know-nothing blogger who is nothing more than Microsoft's paid mouthpiece.

Mad Mac Maniac
Jun 23, 2011, 08:35 AM
Is that really your point of view on consumer behavior?
...

YES. MacRumors posters are NOT typical consumers. Are you daft? There are tons of stuff that I don't really know about, if it is important enough to me I will do sufficient research before I make any purchases, but that isn't the case for everyone.

Say I wanted to buy a blu-ray player and I found one in the store that I perceived to be the same the my friend showed me, or the same I saw in a commercial. A lot of people would just buy it assuming it was the same one they saw. Whether the label said samsung, or panasonic, or whatever else I wouldn't really care.

You must only be friends with techies. And most techies have already made up their mind about Apple products one way or another. But my sister, my parents, my wife, etc don't know anything about tech in the slightest. I'm not sure if my parents even realize that there are other smartphones capable of using the internet... They see a touchscreen with internet they are already thinking iPhone. Now add in an 80% identical UI and now they are convinced as well as another huge chunk of the population.

My first thought when I first read these stories, was not that a customer might be confused into thinking a Samsung phone was an iPhone, but more along the lines of.. "well the samsung one is cheaper, and its close enough to the iphone (hardware and software) so I might as well just get the cheaper samsung one".

This thinking would apply to a lot of people I think, who are less concerned about having an iPhone and just want a 'cool smart phone'

I agree with you 100%. I actually had meant to bring this up too. I'm not sure how much cheaper they are (depends on the phone), but it could be price or it could be a non-iphone carrier, or a pushy sales rep, or it could just be the phone they see first. Assuming they even recognize it is a different phone, they will often think "well it's basically the same" and thus samsung reaps off the benefits of the iPhone.

justinfreid
Jun 23, 2011, 09:18 AM
YES. MacRumors posters are NOT typical consumers. Are you daft? There are tons of stuff that I don't really know about, if it is important enough to me I will do sufficient research before I make any purchases, but that isn't the case for everyone.

Say I wanted to buy a blu-ray player and I found one in the store that I perceived to be the same the my friend showed me, or the same I saw in a commercial. A lot of people would just buy it assuming it was the same one they saw. Whether the label said samsung, or panasonic, or whatever else I wouldn't really care.

You must only be friends with techies. And most techies have already made up their mind about Apple products one way or another. But my sister, my parents, my wife, etc don't know anything about tech in the slightest. I'm not sure if my parents even realize that there are other smartphones capable of using the internet... They see a touchscreen with internet they are already thinking iPhone. Now add in an 80% identical UI and now they are convinced as well as another huge chunk of the population.

It's really polite of you to ask if I'm daft after ignoring the sentence after what you quoted of mine: "Certainly someone out there knows something about what they're buying."

I understand that MacRumors forum members aren't typical: I was making the point that SOMEONE knows something about what they're buying showing that there's at least a precedent for people understanding a brand before a purchase and later saying that included things like shoes and other products, too.
So, for instance, if people understand that not all shoes are Nikes even though all Nikes that they've ever seen have laces and all the shoes that they see have laces maybe the same can be said about a person seeing a touchscreen phone with internet.

You also ignore the rest of the argument about the branding literally being written all over the device and instead sling insults. The other posters I'm going to quote manage to avoid doing that. What's wrong with you?

I can't comment on the average phone buyer but I can tell you about one phone buyer (a friend of mine) who purchased an Android phone (I forget which one) thinking she was buying an iPhone. The fact that it had a touch interface was all she needed to make the connection. She would most certainly know what brand of shoe she is wearing but, when it comes to technology she switches off. I'm the other way around. I wouldn't have a clue what brand my shoes are.

I think that's an interesting example which may indicate that it's not so much the inherent similarity of the products as much as it's the consumer's own preferences that are at play in the confusion. How much responsibility does a company that happens to be second to market have to differentiate its products from the leader? Do all Samsung and HTC devices have to have NOT AN IPHONE disclaimers on them? How much are the salespeople to blame?


The purpose of Apple's marketing department is to convince consumers that Apple's products are different from Samsung's. Conversely, the purpose of Samsung's marketing department is to convince consumers that they aren't. That's the essence of this lawsuit - Samsung's attempt to present their phones as if they are iPhones - and there are consumers out there who won't know the difference unless it is pointed out to them, since Samsung is clearly trying to cause confusion with the manner in which they are designing their phones, their OS and even their marketing campaign.

I think this too is a good point. If it can be proven that the similarity in Samsung's products to Apple's stems from an intentional desire to copy and confuse and didn't result from organic similarities in the product's development, then Apple, even while they are using tons of Samsung parts to build their devices, would have a case. But consumer confusion alone isn't the benchmark for infringement especially if it arises merely from the similarity of two products with no other intellectual property issues.

And, from this other post (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/22/judge-skeptical-of-apples-appstore-trademark-claims/) on Macrumors' front page, you can see that not all of Apple's claims of consumers being confused fair well in court. I think this matter might be resolved differently, but Samsung may only have to tweak its UI a little to satisfy the court.

sine-nomine
Jun 23, 2011, 09:54 AM
Several commenters have said the average consumer would almost certainly know an iPhone from a Samsung, but I have overheard so many conversations in electronics stores (esp. Best Buy) that would make you realize how many consumers simply do NOT understand such differences.

Over the years, I have heard too many people buy an 'iPod' that was in actuality another mp3 player, and the salesmen never bothered to correct them.

Not too long ago, I saw a middle-aged couple looking at an HP Envy laptop, thinking it was a MacBook. Apparently, they were going to surprise their son with the MacBook he wanted for college. All they picked up on was that both were metal and looked similar, so they were the same right? But the 'HP Macbook' was cheaper, and the salesman played right along.

Just a few weeks ago I overheard a Best Buy employee explain to a young woman that, just like appliances are all made by the same group just with different branding, the Samsung and iPhone are really the same. She got the Samsung, and kept referring to it as an iPhone. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when she was looking at actual iPhone cases and asked, "Will this case fit my iPhone?" My guess is that she probably got the Samsung and probably still doesn't understand that it isn't an iPhone.

It's not just Apple vs. non-Apple, either. I've seen all too many people pick Product B over the Product A they seemed to be interested in (a PS3 Move over a Wii?!) seemingly because they don't really get the difference. The common thread was an ill-informed consumer, and a salesman that will say anything. The combination made some sad magic.

j-traxx
Jun 23, 2011, 11:08 AM
Several commenters have said the average consumer would almost certainly know an iPhone from a Samsung, but I have overheard so many conversations in electronics stores (esp. Best Buy) that would make you realize how many consumers simply do NOT understand such differences.

Over the years, I have heard too many people buy an 'iPod' that was in actuality another mp3 player, and the salesmen never bothered to correct them.

Not too long ago, I saw a middle-aged couple looking at an HP Envy laptop, thinking it was a MacBook. Apparently, they were going to surprise their son with the MacBook he wanted for college. All they picked up on was that both were metal and looked similar, so they were the same right? But the 'HP Macbook' was cheaper, and the salesman played right along.

Just a few weeks ago I overheard a Best Buy employee explain to a young woman that, just like appliances are all made by the same group just with different branding, the Samsung and iPhone are really the same. She got the Samsung, and kept referring to it as an iPhone. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when she was looking at actual iPhone cases and asked, "Will this case fit my iPhone?" My guess is that she probably got the Samsung and probably still doesn't understand that it isn't an iPhone.

It's not just Apple vs. non-Apple, either. I've seen all too many people pick Product B over the Product A they seemed to be interested in (a PS3 Move over a Wii?!) seemingly because they don't really get the difference. The common thread was an ill-informed consumer, and a salesman that will say anything. The combination made some sad magic.



just like when the kitana or the blade was out and people thought they were razr. your point is the most real world example of the argument that apple is making in this lawsuit. premium brands being knocked off. apple spends its ad money to market apple products.

Mad Mac Maniac
Jun 23, 2011, 11:54 AM
It's really polite of you to ask if I'm daft after ignoring the sentence after what you quoted of mine: "Certainly someone out there knows something about what they're buying."

I understand that MacRumors forum members aren't typical: I was making the point that SOMEONE knows something about what they're buying showing that there's at least a precedent for people understanding a brand before a purchase and later saying that included things like shoes and other products, too.
So, for instance, if people understand that not all shoes are Nikes even though all Nikes that they've ever seen have laces and all the shoes that they see have laces maybe the same can be said about a person seeing a touchscreen phone with internet.

You also ignore the rest of the argument about the branding literally being written all over the device and instead sling insults. The other posters I'm going to quote manage to avoid doing that. What's wrong with you?


wow. I didn't realize you were so sensitive... I called you daft: silly, foolish, crazy. Would you have been insulted if I asked "are you crazy?" Nothing else about my post was remotely close to "slinging insults"

and I STILL think it's crazy to reply to my statement of "the average consumer is ill-informed" with "but people here on MR know the difference!" THAT is a crazy analogy. Sure, SOMEBODY knows the difference. informed people know the difference. That doesn't take away from my statement that the AVERAGE ho-hum consumer is ill-informed (and there are tons of examples to prove it). Your argument is flawed.

Branding All over the device? Are you referring to the one small :apple: icon on the back of the device? Hardly all over the device... Plus, like I said a lot of people don't really care so much about the apple logo, or the samsung logo etc. They want the experience. The apple advertising does a great job showcasing that experience. All their friends weilding iPhones show examples of that experience. They walk in the store and get confused because that look, feel, and experience is so similar in many other products. So they end up buying the cheapest or whichever the salesman recommended.

justinfreid
Jun 23, 2011, 01:14 PM
wow. I didn't realize you were so sensitive... I called you daft: silly, foolish, crazy. Would you have been insulted if I asked "are you crazy?" Nothing else about my post was remotely close to "slinging insults"

and I STILL think it's crazy to reply to my statement of "the average consumer is ill-informed" with "but people here on MR know the difference!" THAT is a crazy analogy. Sure, SOMEBODY knows the difference. informed people know the difference. That doesn't take away from my statement that the AVERAGE ho-hum consumer is ill-informed (and there are tons of examples to prove it). Your argument is flawed.

Branding All over the device? Are you referring to the one small :apple: icon on the back of the device? Hardly all over the device... Plus, like I said a lot of people don't really care so much about the apple logo, or the samsung logo etc. They want the experience. The apple advertising does a great job showcasing that experience. All their friends weilding iPhones show examples of that experience. They walk in the store and get confused because that look, feel, and experience is so similar in many other products. So they end up buying the cheapest or whichever the salesman recommended.

I wasn't brought to tears by your use of the word, but I found it particularly off-putting since you then, and now, ignored my argument and cherry-picked a sentence that, out of context, would be really easy attack. By the way, in context "daft" as you used it would align most closely with stupid or foolish- neither of which I'd use easily. You're right, saying that you were slinging insults was an exaggeration for effect.

Ok, with that out of the way, I was trying to debunk the stance that consumers in general are stupid by showing that at least someone (maybe I should be more liberal in my use of italics) knows what type of phone they're buying, in this case MacRumors posters, leaving the reader to figure out that plenty of people who don't post may be similarly informed thus chipping away at the notion that everyone except people who are obsessed with all things Apple are too dumb to tell the difference between a Samsung phone and an Apple. If you're argument is that people don't care, then how confused are they? It's more that their priorities are such that a product's manufacturer doesn't matter, not that they can't tell the difference. Consumers, then, would be ill-informed since they don't care. Is Apple going to send them to re-education camps until they can recite the iPhone's specs?
Your asking if I'm daft plays into my argument that "Many posters who are convinced that the average consumer is a no-nothing idiot seems more to be reveling in their own perceived superiority to that person rather than actually engaging on the topic. Wiser people might acknowledge instead that an average person wouldn't know instinctively looking at the front of a Samsung touchscreen smartphone and an Apple one who made it and discuss the implications of that."

And, you're right, the branding isn't written all over the device, again I was exaggerating, but it is very clear at almost every point of sale (brick and mortar Apple Stores, the online store, a particularly section of BestBuy or ATT, and on the box) who makes an iPhone. Further, if there was enough confusion to warrant this type of suit, wouldn't the dismal sales of the iPhone show it...? Wouldn't many consumers end up with an Android phone when in fact they wanted an iPhone? How often does that occur? Even without hard facts, though I'll admit one poster did allude to example, when someone goes out to buy an iPhone, if they know enough to ask for that, how likely is it that they'll be derailed in that pursuit and end up with something else? You say they want the experience, not the brand. Ok, if that's true, they're free to choose a cheaper product that gives them a sufficient experience without buying Apple, are you then saying Apple competitors are copying Apple's IP by offering something that fits the bill? Will they really walk out of the store confused or will they have chosen something that does the job but is not conceived of in Cupertino?

Essentially, it comes down to my belief that while the iPhone is great and I enjoy the experience it provides, on a gut level, looking at the Samsung phones and their GUIs, I think that Apple's better course of action would be to play it classy and continue to make better products and be the market leader and not try to get Samsung to change the color of its icon for the phone app. Plus, two separate groups of people working on the same problem could come up with similar results. Their inspirations may be the same. Further, Apple is building its iPhones, in part, with Samsung's hardware- Apple is not creating the smartphone experience from scratch, even if they do it the best.
This coupled with Apple's trying to maintain its trademark on "App Store" annoy me. I'd prefer Apple's ethos to be one of engineering and development not one of lawyers and litigiousness.

Wondercow
Jun 23, 2011, 03:16 PM
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You wouldn't say that if u realized how dumb the average consumer actually is.

Do you know how many people actually used to use cd trays in early tower computers as drink holders?
Do you? Or are you just assuming that unverified and vague-in-details email forwards must be representative of the truth of the population as a whole?