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MacRumors
Jun 26, 2011, 01:37 AM
http://cdn.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/26/imovie-08-was-originally-called-first-cut-ubillos-on-final-cut-pro-x/)


In a lengthy article (http://www.dvcreators.net/what-does-the-guy-who-led-the-original-final-cut-pro-revolution-think-of-the-final-cut-pro-x-release/) on DVCreators.net, Josh Mellicker revisits the Final Cut Pro X complaints and what Apple might have to do to address its limitations. The full article may be of interest to video editing professionals.

http://cdn.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/06/imovie.jpg


For the rest of us, the most interesting part of the article was a reference to how Apple's Chief Architect of Video Applications Randy Ubillos had originally created an application called "First Cut" which later evolved into iMovie '08. iMovie '08 was met with similarly mixed (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/08/14/imovie-08-transition-pains/) reactions due to the complete overhaul over iMovie 6.

Steve Jobs told the story when he originally introduced iMovie during a keynote in August 2007 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XFozV077nQ ), but left out some details. According to Mellicker, Ubillos returned from vacation and found that Final Cut wasn't ideal for organizing raw footage. From that experience, First Cut was born which would let you import your raw footage and quickly skip through, organizing and building a rough edit. The intention originally was to then export to Final Cut Pro. At some point, Apple officially latched onto the project and turned it into the new iMovie '08.

Ubillos was the creator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Cut_Pro#History) of the first three versions of Adobe Premiere and later developed KeyGrip which was sold to Apple and released as Final Cut Pro. Ubillos continues to be the Chief Architect of Video Applications at Apple.

With the release of Final Cut Pro X, Ubillos has been answering emails (http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/4302) and told one of our readers "I'm extremely proud of Final Cut Pro X, it's a huge step forward in digital storytelling." He went on to suggest if the user gave it a fair shot, they may be pleasantly surprised. Ubillos also write "Final Cut Pro X 1.0 is the beginning of a road, not the end."

Article Link: iMovie '08 Was Originally Called 'First Cut', Ubillos on Final Cut Pro X (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/26/imovie-08-was-originally-called-first-cut-ubillos-on-final-cut-pro-x/)



fortetfn
Jun 26, 2011, 01:59 AM
This program has potential to be great, even though it is almost like an imovie upgrade.

luigi408
Jun 26, 2011, 02:02 AM
Maybe good later on, but right now it sucks.

gallofilm
Jun 26, 2011, 02:02 AM
At this point we'd need someone like Donald Trump sitting at a table and saying: "you're fired!". Who do we fire for such an epic disaster? I wouldn't exclude having to fire Steve Jobs again. After all he pushed for Imovie 08 which nobody wants.

David29
Jun 26, 2011, 02:08 AM
This is the same genius that ruined iMovie.

I guess I really don't have a "learned" opinion on this. I am a high-level consumer video editor at best, Just a few family things and stuff destined for youtube.

Still, I cant help but think back to what this guy did to iMovie. He took a straightforward program that was very logical, and turned it into a toy. Now, some three versions later, iMovie is only now providing some of the control and editing features which it had YEARS AGO before this "visionary genius" changed (ruined) it.

Maybe I am missing something, and I could be totally wrong, but it seems like this guy is in the process of doing the same thing with FCP. He took something which I used to see as professional and somewhat intimidating (FCP) and dumbed it down. i can only imagine what aspects of fine level control and precision has been lost in the process.

relbbircs
Jun 26, 2011, 02:11 AM
Randy Ubillos puckers up. Smile, Randy!

itsokay
Jun 26, 2011, 02:14 AM
the author of the dvcreators.net piece should learn how to edit like a pro. the piece was more about him than on Final Cut Pro X. Sad.

butterfly0fdoom
Jun 26, 2011, 02:15 AM
This is the same genius that ruined iMovie.

I guess I really don't have a "learned" opinion on this. I am a high-level consumer video editor at best, Just a few family things and stuff destined for youtube.

Still, I cant help but think back to what this guy did to iMovie. He took a straightforward program that was very logical, and turned it into a toy. Now, some three versions later, iMovie is only now providing some of the control and editing features which it had YEARS AGO before this "visionary genius" changed (ruined) it.

Maybe I am missing something, and I could be totally wrong, but it seems like this guy is in the process of doing the same thing with FCP. He took something which I used to see as professional and somewhat intimidating (FCP) and dumbed it down. i can only imagine what aspects of fine level control and precision has been lost in the process.

You do know that the genius who "ruined" FCP and iMovie is also the genius who created FCP and iMovie to begin with, right?

ppc_michael
Jun 26, 2011, 02:19 AM
Okay so...

Cause:
Some guy has difficulty organizing raw shots from his home videos.

Effect:
New version of professional suite lacks proper color grading tools for (properly slated and logged) footage and, additionally, lacks support for cut lists to grade with a more capable package.

Among many other things of course.

butterfly0fdoom
Jun 26, 2011, 02:20 AM
Okay so...

Cause:
Some guy has difficulty organizing raw shots from his home videos.

Effect:
New version of professional suite lacks proper color grading tools for (properly slated and logged) footage, and additionally lacks support for cut lists to grade with a more capable package.

I think it's more like

Cause:
FCP7 is written in Carbon.

Effect:
If Apple is going to have to rewrite FCP, they may as well give it a fresh start.

David29
Jun 26, 2011, 02:21 AM
You do know that the genius who "ruined" FCP and iMovie is also the genius who created FCP and iMovie to begin with, right?

No, I didn't. But it doesn't matter.

iMovie took a major step backwards. It took years to recover.

Frankly iPhoto is having the same problem. The last update is a joke.

Jerome Morrow
Jun 26, 2011, 02:22 AM
Maybe good later on, but right now it sucks.

Very smart and argument based post.


Funny thing here is that even if it had all the features possible (many features coming soon by the way) no Pro will just jump to use it anyway. What smart people do is install it on a separate computer and leran it, so that when time comes to switch it's not that hard. So that leaves just pro wannabes, trolls and just regular haters and people that have no clue that just take the "omg it has no feature x" and run with it, whining and moaning about this.

Edit:

Since i'm being down voted it looks like i'm spot on with this one. Sad people are sad.

itsokay
Jun 26, 2011, 02:29 AM
No, I didn't. But it doesn't matter.

iMovie took a major step backwards. It took years to recover.

Frankly iPhoto is having the same problem. The last update is a joke.

write your own editing app then. you seem to know more about it than the originator himself. multicam pls :)

ksgant
Jun 26, 2011, 02:29 AM
I like what Ken Segall said:

Imagine if they had unveiled FCPX as the new Final Cut Express instead. Buyers of that product would have been absolutely delighted by the many leaps forward in power and simplicity, and the missing features would have been insignificant to them. A new Final Cut Express would also have given pro editors a tantalizing preview of a new FCPX to come.

Read the rest of his thoughts on this:

http://kensegall.com/blog/2011/06/final-cut-pro-x-the-natives-get-restless/

ARobinson
Jun 26, 2011, 02:30 AM
Why am I not surprised. Oh crap...were in for a long ride. Sounds like jumping ship is an appropriate option for post houses hoping to upgrade to Lion. Assuming FCP7 will no longer see upgrades.

Oletros
Jun 26, 2011, 02:32 AM
Very smart and argument based post.


Funny thing here is that even if it had all the features possible (many features coming soon by the way) no Pro will just jump to use it anyway. What smart people do is install it on a separate computer and leran it, so that when time comes to switch it's not that hard. So that leaves just pro wannabes, trolls and just regular haters and people that have no clue that just take the "omg it has no feature x" and run with it, whining and moaning about this.

Edit:

Since i'm being down voted it looks like i'm spot on with this one. Sad people are sad.

Perhaps you're downvoted for insulting everything that doesn't have your opinion.

grapefruitx
Jun 26, 2011, 02:33 AM
I think Apple screwed up here, I cant speak to the product but the Market positioning seems to be a mess, with Windows 7 and strong competitors to FCP they could see Editors migrating to PC based product and staying there. They should have evolved this a Mid range product for pro You tubers and home enthusiasts, and evolved a pro version when it was ready.

k2director
Jun 26, 2011, 02:33 AM
The real tragedy here is if Apple thinks all the anger over FCP X is just about that particular software, and not the growing fear over the last few years that pro apps and gear are a fading priority for Apple. For instance:

* It took almost 2.5 years to go from Final Cut Studio 2 to Final Cut Studio 3, and Final Cut Studio 3 was just a moderate update. Then it took almost another 2 full years to introduce Final Cut Pro X, which removed tons of features!

* Apple bought Shake, and then cancelled it. Cancelled it! Apple said there would be a next-generation app coming in Shake's place, but that never showed up.

* Apple started letting Logic atrophy.

* Apple "phoned-in" the last few Mac Pro updates, just slapping in some new Intel chips, but not adding value such as 1) more expansion slots (three slots is not a lot for a workstation), and 2) never bothering to include an eSATA port, even though tons of media professionals started using eSATA, 3) never bothering to include a USB3 port, etc. etc. Many people are wondering if the new Thunderbolt port will be Apple's excuse to give up on the Mac Pro altogether.

* Apple stopped updating its "Pro" page almost two years ago, here: http://www.apple.com/pro/

* Apple stopped attending NAB, and other standard industry events.

* Multiple rumors that Apple was trying to sell its Pro Apps division....


People have spent a lot of time and money building their businesses and careers around FCP. But since the iPhone launched, FCP and other pro apps and gear have gotten noticeably less attention.

That makes a lot of people nervous, and left to wonder what Apple's intentions are. You really can't help but wonder because Apple is so ridiculously silent about its intentions, which works fine on the consumer side but not when people are investing tens of thousands of dollars in apps and gear around Apple.

Combine that with Apple shipping a new version of Final Cut that is so radically different and so underpowered, and also discontinuing sales for FCS 3 suites and FCP Server (with no explanation about Server's demise or any intentions on bringing back multi-user functionality) and you can see how the dam finally burst in the Pro community and the angry flood waters rushed in.

Apple better start communicating better with its pro customers, and re-assuring them that it's committed to professional work in this new era of the iPhone/iPad. Otherwise, a lot of people will be heading for the doors...

JesterJJZ
Jun 26, 2011, 02:35 AM
Will FCP7 work on Lion? I read somewhere that the installer needs Rosetta to function.

itsokay
Jun 26, 2011, 02:35 AM
Why am I not surprised. Oh crap...were in for a long ride. Sounds like jumping ship is an appropriate option for post houses hoping to upgrade to Lion. Assuming FCP7 will no longer see upgrades.

they should jump ship them. that is after contemplating that jumping ship is better for business. then, hopefully when fcpx has the features they want and again upon contemplation it is better for business; then, they could return to fcpx.

its business; nothing personal. :)

ARobinson
Jun 26, 2011, 02:40 AM
Very smart and argument based post.


Funny thing here is that even if it had all the features possible (many features coming soon by the way) no Pro will just jump to use it anyway. What smart people do is install it on a separate computer and leran it, so that when time comes to switch it's not that hard. So that leaves just pro wannabes, trolls and just regular haters and people that have no clue that just take the "omg it has no feature x" and run with it, whining and moaning about this.

The problem too is Apple pulled final cut studio. Not selling it anymore is one thing, but they also bought back stock from resellers. So its not out there for the public. Remember too, Lion ships in a couple weeks. FCPX has some significant features (we all know that), not to mention its 64bit, uses GCD, Cocoa foundation, and it really utilizes the GPU; however, its the lack of control over your media thats provides difficulty for Post Houses. But no need to go into it... My point is we either have to use FCP7 on 10.6 or transition to another NLE. Things are still really grey...but every move thus far has said they are no longer supporting FCP7 and are investing in X. I hope Apple releases a statement monday too cuz were all a bit scared.

butterfly0fdoom
Jun 26, 2011, 02:41 AM
Very smart and argument based post.


Funny thing here is that even if it had all the features possible (many features coming soon by the way) no Pro will just jump to use it anyway. What smart people do is install it on a separate computer and leran it, so that when time comes to switch it's not that hard. So that leaves just pro wannabes, trolls and just regular haters and people that have no clue that just take the "omg it has no feature x" and run with it, whining and moaning about this.

Edit:

Since i'm being down voted it looks like i'm spot on with this one. Sad people are sad.

You are definitely spot-on. Either way, there's a reason FCPX moves FCS3 into a separate folder instead of overwriting it, just like there was a reason Macs shipped with both OS 9 and OS X for a while.

People just like to complain.

ARobinson
Jun 26, 2011, 02:45 AM
I think Apple screwed up here, I cant speak to the product but the Market positioning seems to be a mess, with Windows 7 and strong competitors to FCP they could see Editors migrating to PC based product and staying there. They should have evolved this a Mid range product for pro You tubers and home enthusiasts, and evolved a pro version when it was ready.

I doubt any editor would go to windows...thats absurd. Cost to much. The NLE is the problem and a simple financial fix, verses all new computers. No FCP user would go to a PC tho. :) Pretty certain of that, just invest in PP or Avid.

Jerome Morrow
Jun 26, 2011, 02:48 AM
Perhaps you're downvoted for insulting everything that doesn't have your opinion.

What opinion? As i said you can't say the product sucks when it's at version 1.0 and then be taken seriously. People throwing the Pro argument here a lot, but as i said no one will just jump to use it even if it has all the features in verion 1.0.


You do realize that it will have those features in a year or so?

pika2000
Jun 26, 2011, 02:48 AM
Funny thing here is that even if it had all the features possible (many features coming soon by the way) no Pro will just jump to use it anyway. What smart people do is install it on a separate computer and leran it, so that when time comes to switch it's not that hard. So that leaves just pro wannabes, trolls and just regular haters and people that have no clue that just take the "omg it has no feature x" and run with it, whining and moaning about this.

Edit:

Since i'm being down voted it looks like i'm spot on with this one. Sad people are sad.
You got a good point there. I mean we have people bashing Ubillos, the person that created the stuff that these same people are praising.

ksgant
Jun 26, 2011, 02:49 AM
The only thing that bugs me is that they stopped selling Final Cut Pro Studio. If they had kept that and then released FCPX, people could still buy the old one while learning the new one...and waiting for it to become more robust with updates and features added as they went.

Burning bridges behind you may work for some things, but for others I think Apple should have at least kept the old version around until more people got updated with the new one.

I'm not even talking about support with updates to the old version, but just keep it for sale in case there are installations that need another seat for whatever reason. Naturally, ones that already have the old version can keep using it, but you're stuck with it and can't buy additional seats if you need them.

Oletros
Jun 26, 2011, 02:49 AM
What opinion? As i said you can't say the product sucks when it's at version 1.0 and then be taken seriously. People throwing the Pro argument here a lot, but as i said no one will just jump to use it even if it has all the features in verion 1.0.


You do realize that it will have those features in a year or so?

No, it's not version 1 or, better said, Apple doesn't say it's version 1, they say it's the version after FC 7 and that replaces FC7

Michael Scrip
Jun 26, 2011, 02:56 AM
I remember all the "oohs and aahs" at the Final Cut Supermeet in April when Apple first unveiled FCPX. I watched that entire video. There were so many new time-saving features. And the people in the audience were going crazy.

What they didn't talk about was... well... all the stuff you can't do anymore.

It's now a complete 180 from the joy people had back in April...

TiggsPanther
Jun 26, 2011, 02:57 AM
The real tragedy here is if Apple thinks all the anger over FCP X is just about that particular software, and not the growing fear over the last few years that pro apps and gear are a fading priority for Apple. For instance:

Not forgetting the Xserve getting discontinued and OS X Server being rolled into the mail OS as a small-priced bolt-on upgrade.

Not encouraging for anyone who administers (or plans to) a fleet of Macs in the workplace.

I know it's business sense to cater for your primary market, and home users really are the pretty major part of that these days. But it seems more and more like they're completely turning away form what they used to make.
Which is a shame if what they used to make was the best fit for something.

StephenCampbell
Jun 26, 2011, 03:01 AM
I am deeply disturbed by these trends that have been happening at Apple lately. QuickTime 7, iMovie 06 and Final Cut Pro 6 (or 7) were Perfect. They were perfect. Apple had reached a level of perfection unprecedented in the world of technology, and then they went and ruined every single one of those applications.

I still use iMovie 06 myself, as well as QuickTime 7. But I know a day will come when they will no longer run on the latest machines, and the thought of that day frightens me, and makes me think I might have to buy a PC.

What are they thinking!? Seriously, what are they thinking? They're taking excellent programs and replacing them with programs that DON'T HAVE ANY FEATURES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

pika2000
Jun 26, 2011, 03:10 AM
No, it's not version 1 or, better said, Apple doesn't say it's version 1, they say it's the version after FC 7 and that replaces FC7
Sure, and as a"pro," you would immediately buy a brand new software to replace a mission critical one. :rolleyes:

Jerome Morrow
Jun 26, 2011, 03:10 AM
No, it's not version 1 or, better said, Apple doesn't say it's version 1, they say it's the version after FC 7 and that replaces FC7

It has a different name and it's done from scratch i think it's safe to say that it's at version 1 now.

TiggsPanther
Jun 26, 2011, 03:10 AM
I remember all the "oohs and aahs" at the Final Cut Supermeet in April when Apple first unveiled FCPX. I watched that entire video. There were so many new time-saving features. And the people in the audience were going crazy.

What they didn't talk about was... well... all the stuff you can't do anymore.

It's now a complete 180 from the joy people had back in April...

This is a problem I see with Apple's secrecy about upcoming products. There are definitely times when it works perfectly. Leave people wondering and speculating and drive the hype up to near-Religious levels. Generate free buzz and augment your marketing budget by word of mouth.

Tends to work phenomenally with purely consumer products.

They go the same track with their professional products, too, and this is where I see it falter at times. The hype, the buzz, the excitement. It's all still there. Then there's the nervousness of the pro user who wonders if the new product will do what the old one will, as well as if the old product will be avilaable afterwards to aid transition in case it's not.
(Sudden discontinuation of a tried and tested product when it's replacement isn't a guaranteed fit can play merry hell with budget scheduling)

Then there's the big negative. Uncontrolled expectations. Dropping a "surprise, here's a new product that will be the only version aviliable from now on" is not very good on release day. It generate negative buzz.
If this information had been slowly released between April and now, the vitriol would proably be a lot less severe. People would still be disappointed, but there would have been the time to adjust. And, most importantly, the initial upsets would not be right in the middle of the new-product marketing and reviewing cycle.

I've heard one positive on it, from a colleague who got a copy. And even he will be sticking with the old Studio for a bit, owing to missing features.
The rest is nothing but complaints about FCP X on various websites and podcasts. This doesn't necessarily mean it's a rubbish product. But right now there's more negative buzz than positive. It will die down, as the product will improve. But as first impresions go, this one should have been handled better.

res1233
Jun 26, 2011, 03:11 AM
I am deeply disturbed by these trends that have been happening at Apple lately. QuickTime 7, iMovie 06 and Final Cut Pro 6 (or 7) were Perfect. They were perfect. Apple had reached a level of perfection unprecedented in the world of technology, and then they went and ruined every single one of those applications.

I still use iMovie 06 myself, as well as QuickTime 7. But I know a day will come when they will no longer run on the latest machines, and the thought of that day frightens me, and makes me think I might have to buy a PC.

What are they thinking!? Seriously, what are they thinking? They're taking excellent programs and replacing them with programs that DON'T HAVE ANY FEATURES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

Apple likes to start from scratch now and then. It's what they did with Mac OS X, and I'm sure we can all agree that it was a much needed change. I remember OS 9 freezing all the time from poorly written Apps. Now, the only thing that freezes is that poorly written app, as it should be. Then there's the Unix underpinnings. Overall, I'd say that was a good change, although, as many of us remember, OS X version 1.0 was barely usable. It was missing many features, some of which didn't even come back till snow leopard (put back trash feature). I think the same will happen with FCPX. They did a complete rewrite, and I think they never intended the majority of pros to be happy with this initial version. I expect a wave of new features to come in either an update or an upgrade (Hopefully an update.)

arn
Jun 26, 2011, 03:11 AM
I am deeply disturbed by these trends that have been happening at Apple lately. QuickTime 7, iMovie 06 and Final Cut Pro 6 (or 7) were Perfect. They were perfect. Apple had reached a level of perfection unprecedented in the world of technology, and then they went and ruined every single one of those applications.


It's bold, certainly.

Taking it in such a dramatic new direction is risky. But I respect that Apple's willing to take the risk.

There's a reason that Blackberry or Palm didn't come out with an iPhone. Or that Sony didn't come out the the iPod. Those technologies would be too disruptive to their current existence.

A great example of a company that is doing this is Netflix. They invented the mail-order DVD. And yet they invested heavily in streaming, hurting their own DVD-mail order business. But they knew that DVD-mail order was doomed, so they helped kill it.

arn

Oletros
Jun 26, 2011, 03:13 AM
Sure, and as a"pro," you would immediately buy a brand new software to replace a mission critical one. :rolleyes:

Can you show me where I have said anything like that?

Thanks.

StephenCampbell
Jun 26, 2011, 03:14 AM
Apple likes to start from scratch now and then. It's what they did with Mac OS X, and I'm sure we can all agree that it was a much needed change. I remember OS 9 freezing all the time from poorly written Apps. Now, the only thing that freezes is that poorly written app, as it should be. Then there's the Unix underpinnings. Overall, I'd say that was a good change, although, as many of us remember, OS X version 1.0 was barely usable. It was missing many features, some of which didn't even come back till snow leopard (put back trash feature). I think the same will happen with FCPX. They did a complete rewrite, and I think they never intended the majority of pros to be happy with this initial version. I expect a wave of new features to come in either an update or an upgrade (Hopefully an update.)

These are good points and observations. Thanks for your insight! It's calmed me down some.

Jerome Morrow
Jun 26, 2011, 03:15 AM
The only thing that bugs me is that they stopped selling Final Cut Pro Studio. If they had kept that and then released FCPX, people could still buy the old one while learning the new one...and waiting for it to become more robust with updates and features added as they went.

Burning bridges behind you may work for some things, but for others I think Apple should have at least kept the old version around until more people got updated with the new one.

I'm not even talking about support with updates to the old version, but just keep it for sale in case there are installations that need another seat for whatever reason. Naturally, ones that already have the old version can keep using it, but you're stuck with it and can't buy additional seats if you need them.

Maybe they are actually very serious about new FCPX and it will have all required features very soon.

Oletros
Jun 26, 2011, 03:18 AM
It has a different name and it's done from scratch i think it's safe to say that it's at version 1 now.

No, it doesn't have a different name, it has a different version suffix

res1233
Jun 26, 2011, 03:21 AM
It's bold, certainly.

Taking it in such a dramatic new direction is risky. But I respect that Apple's willing to take the risk.

There's a reason that Blackberry or Palm didn't come out with an iPhone. Or that Sony didn't come out the the iPod. Those technologies would be too disruptive to their current existence.

A great example of a company that is doing this is Netflix. They invented the mail-order DVD. And yet they invested heavily in streaming, hurting their own DVD-mail order business. But they knew that DVD-mail order was doomed, so they helped kill it.

arn

So true. I don't even have DVDs on my netflix subscription as I find streaming far more convenient, and they have quite a decent selection of titles at this point. It's the forward-thinking companies that last, or the ones who are good at copying the forward thinkers.

the vj
Jun 26, 2011, 03:23 AM
I am sick of the stupid kids who has no idea of video editing posting their useless garbage in here.

Final Cut Pro X IS GARBAGE!!!!

I work in a TV station, we had no less than 900 projects in FCP 7 and is just no tolerable not having FCP X not reading those projects 100%. We are not exporting in any other stinky format, WE JUST CAN NOT! WE HAVE NO TIME!

Compressor 3 was mediocre enough, Final Cut Server was a complete lie already.

By the end of the year we are going to switch the entire platform to Adobe Premiere and that is going to cost our shareholders some good money and time and training but better safe than depending on Steve Jobs

There are not excuses, we have been left alone on the wild with FCP X. It is a lame joke that has no excuses.

It is just like changing every single gas station to hydrogen overnight. What do I do with my car now? you ask, well we are not supporting it anymore.

I mean, the bunch of kids doesn't get it.

If I had a gun with one bullet and had Fidel Castro in front of me or Randi Ubillos... wow... I would be pointing back and forth.

Steve Balmer must be shocked and laughing at this and you bet FCP X will end up in the Guinness Book of Records as the biggest software flaw ever!

pika2000
Jun 26, 2011, 03:23 AM
Can you show me where I have said anything like that?

Thanks.
If you didn't do that, then what's your complaint about Apple "replacing" FCP7? Your existing FCP7 didn't magically break when FCPX was released, did it?

res1233
Jun 26, 2011, 03:25 AM
I am sick of the stupid kids who has no idea of video editing posting their useless garbage in here.

Final Cut Pro X IS GARBAGE!!!!

I work in a TV station, we had no less than 900 projects in FCP 7 and is just no tolerable not having FCP X not reading those projects 100%. We are not exporting in any other stinky format, WE JUST CAN NOT! WE HAVE NO TIME!

Compressor 3 was mediocre enough, Final Cut Server was a complete lie already.

By the end of the year we are going to switch the entire platform to Adobe Premiere and that is going to cost our shareholders some good money and time and training but better safe than depending on Steve Jobs.

There are not excuses, we have been left alone on the wild with FCP X. It is a lame joke that has no excuses.

It is just like changing every single gas station to hydrogen overnight. What do I do with my car now? you ask, well we are not supporting it anymore.

I mean, the bunch of kids doesn't get it.

If I had a gun with one bullet and had Fidel Castro in front of me or Randi Ubillos... wow... I would be pointing back and forth.

Steve Balmer must be shocked and laughing at this and you bet FCP X will end up in the Guinness Book of Records as the biggest software flaw ever!

A perfect example of someone who doesn't look to the future. Someday, once FCPX is fully featured, we should return to this forum for a few chuckles. :D Also, if you're so quick to dump a perfectly fine product (Final cut pro 7) because the latest revision isn't up to snuff, causing so many other issues along the way, perhaps you should consider another line of work...

Jerome Morrow
Jun 26, 2011, 03:25 AM
No, it doesn't have a different name, it has a different version suffix

Well then as a complete rewrite from scratch it surely is at version 1 even if it says 10 (just to continue old versioning). :p

ghost187
Jun 26, 2011, 03:26 AM
Don't you guys get it? Apple is changing as a company from Pro to consumer. This year alone they discontinued their server hardware and now they are dumbing down Final Cut. They didn't release a new iWork either. I think from now on, they will just make small upgrades more consistently to their softwares which is better for us consumers because we won't have to keep paying for the same software. Apple is trying to push MBA more than MBPs or any other Macs right now is just another proof. You can't blame them for focusing on what makes them money. Wouldn't be too surprised if Logic Studio was simplified too. I think they are preparing their Pro applications for iPad in the future.

Oletros
Jun 26, 2011, 03:26 AM
If you didn't do that, then what's your complaint about Apple "replacing" FCP7? Your existing FCP7 didn't magically break when FCPX was released, did it?

And now can you show me where I complained about FCPX replacing anything?

I just said that it wasn't version 1 and Apple doesn't say it is version 1, nothing more, nothing less.

pika2000
Jun 26, 2011, 03:28 AM
I am sick of the stupid kids who has no idea of video editing posting their useless garbage in here.

Final Cut Pro X IS GARBAGE!!!!

I work in a TV station, we had no less than 900 projects in FCP 7 and is just no tolerable not having FCP X not reading those projects 100%. We are not exporting in any other stinky format, WE JUST CAN NOT! WE HAVE NO TIME!

Riiiight, because as a "pro," you would immediately replace your mission critical software with a brand new untested one, despite you having "no time."

Jerome Morrow
Jun 26, 2011, 03:30 AM
Don't you guys get it? Apple is changing as a company from Pro to consumer. This year alone they discontinued their server hardware and now they are dumbing down Final Cut.

No, we don't get it. Obviously.

pika2000
Jun 26, 2011, 03:33 AM
And now can you show me where I complained about FCPX replacing anything?

I just said that it wasn't version 1 and Apple doesn't say it is version 1, nothing more, nothing less.
they say it's the version after FC 7 and that replaces FC7
But good to know that you were not complaining. Let's move on then.

JesterJJZ
Jun 26, 2011, 03:36 AM
These are good points and observations. Thanks for your insight! It's calmed me down some.

Most of our files that worked in OS9 still worked on OSX though. They even had Classic mode, and then Rosetta for the PPC-Intel transition. Here they just cut off our heads and left us bleeding...

mozumder
Jun 26, 2011, 03:37 AM
I actually went from FCP7 to iMovie08 in my editing workflow. Why? Because the data organization capabilities of the new iMovie was fundamentally better than FCP7's, and iMovie is enough for most of my edits. I learned from Aperture, which has a similar data organizational model.

iMovie is pretty much FCPX-lite, and the interface is very similar, especially regards to magnetic timelines and trackless design. When editors were going nuts about the feature from the NAB supermeet demo, I was trying to figure out how it was any different from iMovie.

It is now clear that those editors never even bothered learning the iMovie08 trackless use model.

BTW it took Apple 6 months to go from Aperture 1.0 to Aperture 1.1 and another 6 months for Aperture 1.5. I expect a similar schedule for FCPX features upgrades.

FCPX is going to be industry standard in 5 years. There is nothing else that will come close.

The most hilarious part about this debate is seeing the reaction from editors. Their reaction reminds me why they're editors, instead of Directors. They are the bricklayers of the movie industry, instead of the Architect. Their lack of any sort of 5-year vision is quite incredible, and it's obvious they've never made a 5 year business plan, and can only assume that the world will forever exist in the current state.

These people actually think Apple doesn't know what they're doing. LOL. This is Steve Jobs we're talking about here. Must I remind you that Steve founded Pixar and is the single largest individual shareholder at Disney, one of the largest media companies in the world?

Do editors REALLY think he doesn't know anything about editing? REALLY? The guy that founded the company that made movies renowned for their storytelling, doesn't know how to edit to tell a story? REALLY?

Just shows how incredibly stupid so many of these editors are.

Gen
Jun 26, 2011, 03:39 AM
I am sick of the stupid kids who has no idea of video editing posting their useless garbage in here.

Final Cut Pro X IS GARBAGE!!!!

I work in a TV station, we had no less than 900 projects in FCP 7 and is just no tolerable not having FCP X not reading those projects 100%. We are not exporting in any other stinky format, WE JUST CAN NOT! WE HAVE NO TIME!

Compressor 3 was mediocre enough, Final Cut Server was a complete lie already.

By the end of the year we are going to switch the entire platform to Adobe Premiere and that is going to cost our shareholders some good money and time and training but better safe than depending on a CEO of a crazy software company with cancer in his brain creating software for Barbie.

There are not excuses, we have been left alone on the wild with FCP X. It is a lame joke that has no excuses.

It is just like changing every single gas station to hydrogen overnight. What do I do with my car now? you ask, well we are not supporting it anymore.

I mean, the bunch of kids doesn't get it.

If I had a gun with one bullet and had Fidel Castro in front of me or Randi Ubillos... wow... I would be pointing back and forth.

Steve Balmer must be shocked and laughing at this and you bet FCP X will end up in the Guinness Book of Records as the biggest software flaw ever!

Um, who's stopping you from continuing to use FCP7?

LoganT
Jun 26, 2011, 03:41 AM
Prediction: These FCP X threads will read like this (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=501) in a couple years.

slrandall
Jun 26, 2011, 03:41 AM
So many negative reviews ... For everyone saying that FCP X is feature-less or abandoning its base or that Apple is no longer interested in professional tools [not to mention how excellent Xcode 4 or Lion Server are], here's a very good review from a true professional: http://www.macworld.com/article/160713/2011/06/fcpxrev.html#lsrc.rss_main

res1233
Jun 26, 2011, 03:45 AM
Most of our files that worked in OS9 still worked on OSX though. They even had Classic mode, and then Rosetta for the PPC-Intel transition. Here they just cut off our heads and left us bleeding...

This is true. Apple should have made a bit more of an effort at backwards compatibility at launch at the very least, although all the missing features probably made that impossible. I think the situation is very different now. FCP7 is perfectly usable the way it is, even though it has some flaws such as being 32-bit, and there are workflow issues, but it still works just fine. Same couldn't be said about OS 9.

Extension conflicts, cooperative multi-tasking, and many other things made OS 9 a pretty terrible OS in my opinion. I remember getting quite a few headaches out of it. It needed to be dropped, and because of this, Apple had tremendous incentive to make sure OS X was 100% backwards compatible with OS 9, which it was, for the most part. Plus, that's how they've always done transitions as far as Mac OS goes: Include a compatibility layer for the older hardware/code till they can fully transition to the new stuff, not so much with regular software.

Lex Yu
Jun 26, 2011, 03:47 AM
The real tragedy here is if Apple thinks all the anger over FCP X is just about that particular software, and not the growing fear over the last few years that pro apps and gear are a fading priority for Apple. For instance:

* It took almost 2.5 years to go from Final Cut Studio 2 to Final Cut Studio 3, and Final Cut Studio 3 was just a moderate update. Then it took almost another 2 full years to introduce Final Cut Pro X, which removed tons of features!
=> Actually, they removed $700 from the previous price. Don't you notice it?

* Apple bought Shake, and then cancelled it. Cancelled it! Apple said there would be a next-generation app coming in Shake's place, but that never showed up.
=> Yeah, you are right about that.

* Apple started letting Logic atrophy.
=> Totally disagreed. Logic is growing. The studio package with tons of virtual instrumentals and samples is worth more than $2,000. However, Apple sells it just for $499 and this explains why pro/amateur musicians are switching to Mac.

* Apple "phoned-in" the last few Mac Pro updates, just slapping in some new Intel chips, but not adding value such as 1) more expansion slots (three slots is not a lot for a workstation), and 2) never bothering to include an eSATA port, even though tons of media professionals started using eSATA, 3) never bothering to include a USB3 port, etc. etc. Many people are wondering if the new Thunderbolt port will be Apple's excuse to give up on the Mac Pro altogether.
=> Check out the "facts." Apple can't hire USB 3.0 because Intel's motherboard chip does NOT support USB 3.0. Apple had no choice.

* Apple stopped updating its "Pro" page almost two years ago, here: http://www.apple.com/pro/
=> You seem to be right.

* Apple stopped attending NAB, and other standard industry events.
=> I think Apple's got a better way to show off their newest S/W. People now are talking about FCPX all over even though Apple did NOT attend NAB. Does it ring a bell?

* Multiple rumors that Apple was trying to sell its Pro Apps division....
=> You now are slashing Apple based on some rumors? Oh, for God's sake! Grow up.

People have spent a lot of time and money building their businesses and careers around FCP. But since the iPhone launched, FCP and other pro apps and gear have gotten noticeably less attention.

That makes a lot of people nervous, and left to wonder what Apple's intentions are. You really can't help but wonder because Apple is so ridiculously silent about its intentions, which works fine on the consumer side but not when people are investing tens of thousands of dollars in apps and gear around Apple.

Combine that with Apple shipping a new version of Final Cut that is so radically different and so underpowered, and also discontinuing sales for FCS 3 suites and FCP Server (with no explanation about Server's demise or any intentions on bringing back multi-user functionality) and you can see how the dam finally burst in the Pro community and the angry flood waters rushed in.
=> I respect your opinion. However, your view is NOT the ONLY view. There are tons of reviews in favor of FCPX. It seems that mixed reactions are floating around. Some so much love FCPX, some so much hate it. Among these, I wanna point out that the new FCPX is less than a half price with 10x faster performance compare to the older version. That make sense enough to me and some others.

Apple better start communicating better with its pro customers, and re-assuring them that it's committed to professional work in this new era of the iPhone/iPad. Otherwise, a lot of people will be heading for the doors...
=> Half right. Apple SHOULD communicate with pro users. However, do you see a lot of new users are coming in through the very door?


See above.

res1233
Jun 26, 2011, 03:50 AM
see above.

my eyes. They burn.

JesterJJZ
Jun 26, 2011, 03:51 AM
It is just like changing every single gas station to hydrogen overnight. What do I do with my car now? you ask, well we are not supporting it anymore.


Right on. You can still drive your car, but one day you will run out of gas and it won't work anymore.

Sure, FCP7 works NOW...but what about next year?

Seriously...will it run on Lion? I heard something about the FCP7 installer needing Rosetta to work. Lion is dropping Rosetta support.

Just stay on Snow Leopard. Ok...my Mac is due for an upgrade, I think new MacPros are being released this summer, probably shipping with Lion installed. Can I downgrade those to Snow Leopard? Possibly not...

Now I'm on the side of the road. I guess I need a new car...but what brand should I go for? I guess I could go used, but I need to make sure to buy it with a full tank...

butterfly0fdoom
Jun 26, 2011, 03:51 AM
No, it doesn't have a different name, it has a different version suffix

If anything, there's a bit of a trend going on with Apple. Mac OS X, Quicktime X, and Final Cut Pro X are all completely rewritten and overhauled versus their predecessors which have (had in the case of Mac OS) a period of overlap between the old and the new.

That statement somehow came out a lot less coherent than it sounded in my mind.

linuxcooldude
Jun 26, 2011, 03:52 AM
never bothering to include an eSATA port, even though tons of media professionals started using eSATA, 3) never bothering to include a USB3

Intel does not support USB3 yet anyway.

A $19.00 bracket that have cables that connect to the motherboard would give you two eSATA connections.

the vj
Jun 26, 2011, 03:54 AM
A perfect example of someone who doesn't look to the future. Someday, once FCPX is fully featured, we should return to this forum for a few chuckles. :D Also, if you're so quick to dump a perfectly fine product (Final cut pro 7) because the latest revision isn't up to snuff, causing so many other issues along the way, perhaps you should consider another line of work...

I make 120K a year and I have 8 video editors, I handle and 3 graphic stations for 4 different cable channels... I am in the right field, sorry your lack of experience can make you see beyond your nose.

We have to edit and compress files for 6 different cable providers. Just cor Xfinity we have to re compress 8 movies per week into H264 and it takes around 6 hours each just because stinky Compressor only recognizes one core. The new Compressor is multicore but does not talk to FCP 7 so we have to render the movie in FCP 7 in native format (Pro res 422) = 1.5 hours and then to H264 = 4 hours in Compressor 4. This is so clumsy even for early 90's standards.

FCP X may look fancy but that's all it is. It is taking my mind back when I used to have a beige 233 G3 PowerMac in 1998. Even Premiere was more powerful back then.

Experience, that is why I say to step aside and let the one who know do the talking. As Henry Ford said: if I ask my costumer what they want they will say "faster horses".

No time to experiment with new editing software, the 90s was for that.

res1233
Jun 26, 2011, 03:57 AM
I make 120K a year and I have 8 video editors, I handle and 3 graphic stations for 4 different cable channels... I am in the right field, sorry your lack of experience can make you see beyond your nose.

We have to edit and compress files for 6 different cable providers. Just cor Xfinity we have to re compress 8 movies per week into H264 and it takes around 6 hours each just because stinky Compressor only recognizes one core. The new Compressor is multicore but does not talk to FCP 7 so we have to render the movie in FCP 7 in native format (Pro res 422) = 1.5 hours and then to H264 = 4 hours in Compressor 4. This is so clumsy even for early 90's standards.

FCP X may look fancy but that's all it is. It is taking my mind back when I used to have a beige 233 G3 PowerMac in 1998. Even Premiere was more powerful back then.

Experience, that is why I say to step aside and let the one who know do the talking. As Henry Ford said: if I ask my costumer what they want they will say "faster horses".

No time to experiment with new editing software, the 90s was for that.

You have no time to experiment with new editing software. Gotcha. Stick with FCP7 then and enjoy it. I'm betting many other pros will too till FCPX is worth testing. But I enjoyed you waving your expertise in my face to somehow attempt to salvage your self-image... It didn't have the intended effect however. Look to the future. FCPX is at its core a much better product than FCP7 was, it's just lacking in many features, but that will change. I think if you're incapable of seeing that, then my previous statement stands: Get out of your line of work before you cause any damage to your clients. Forward thinkers have a future. People stuck in the past do not.

It is ironic that you quoted henry ford however. The man was nothing if not a forward-thinker. The car was a very radical thing at the time, possibly one of the most radical inventions ever. I'd say FCPX fits the bill too (minus the most radical invention ever part).

the vj
Jun 26, 2011, 03:57 AM
Right on. You can still drive your car, but one day you will run out of gas and it won't work anymore....

When I said "tomorrow" I meant "tomorrow" no next year. Tomorrow you will have your car with the gas is left in the tank. That is what Apple is doing.

By next year we are going to have Premiere or Avid, for sure no more stinky Apple experiments. They became the monster they were fighting... Microsoft.

LethalWolfe
Jun 26, 2011, 04:00 AM
You got a good point there. I mean we have people bashing Ubillos, the person that created the stuff that these same people are praising.
George Lucas created the original trilogy and the prequels. Just sayin'... ;)



A great example of a company that is doing this is Netflix. They invented the mail-order DVD. And yet they invested heavily in streaming, hurting their own DVD-mail order business. But they knew that DVD-mail order was doomed, so they helped kill it.

Of course a massive difference is that Netflix still rents DVDs. The day it turned on its streaming servers it didn't simultaneous shut down its mail-order business.

Apple's handling of the move to FCP X has so far been a road map of how not to do things. How many professional apps get made fun of on late night TV? David Pogue even came around and agreed that FCP X, as a pro tool, doesn't meet the needs of the industry today. Jim Jannard (founder of Oakley and RED) has said that Apple continues to drop the ball by not communicating w/users. A number of FCP evangelists are now former evangelists.

And it's not just one thing it's a perfect storm of multiple events. FCP X lacks basic yet very necessary features. Apple apparently dropping support for FCS (software recalled from retailers, FCS update links on Apple's site now redirect to FCP X page, etc.,). Final Cut Server, Apple Color, DVD Studio Pro and Sound Track Pro all got axed w/o any warning. If Apple publicly provided a road map or said they'd concurrently support FCS until FCP X was up to snuff none of this would've happened.

The reaction from the pro segment is not knee jerk like some people believe. Editors and post facilities have been waiting for a significant update to FCS for years. The small update in '09 was met with a collective, "Really, this is it?" and people were already making alternate plans for their businesses. Because, like smart business people, they know they are in the editing business, not the FCP editing business. Apple finally launched FCP X and here we are. These people aren't transitioning way from FCP 'cause they are mad at Apple. They are leaving because they can't wait indefinitely on Apple to release a product that meets their needs.

Potential doesn't pay the rent.


Lethal

mixel
Jun 26, 2011, 04:03 AM
I make 120K a year and I have 8 video editors, I handle and 3 graphic stations for 4 different cable channels... I am in the right field, sorry your lack of experience can make you see beyond your nose.

Experience, that is why I say to step aside and let the one who know do the talking. As Henry Ford said: if I ask my costumer what they want they will say "faster horses".

You don't have experience of software design and software sales though, so surely you should leave it up to the people who do. Apple. They have a plan that you may not fully understand, gramps. What's best for *you* is not what's necessarily best for the end user, the industry or their target consumer moving forward.

YoGramMamma
Jun 26, 2011, 04:10 AM
This is the same genius that ruined iMovie.

I guess I really don't have a "learned" opinion on this. I am a high-level consumer video editor at best, Just a few family things and stuff destined for youtube.

Still, I cant help but think back to what this guy did to iMovie. He took a straightforward program that was very logical, and turned it into a toy. Now, some three versions later, iMovie is only now providing some of the control and editing features which it had YEARS AGO before this "visionary genius" changed (ruined) it.

Maybe I am missing something, and I could be totally wrong, but it seems like this guy is in the process of doing the same thing with FCP. He took something which I used to see as professional and somewhat intimidating (FCP) and dumbed it down. i can only imagine what aspects of fine level control and precision has been lost in the process.


I think you are missing something. iMovie (the previous versions before the big change) was a great app that did its job well. BUT... it was also an app that couldn't generate any text/title over video without the need to render. It had to pre-render everything, transisions, effects, etc. It worked with HDV footage but was made back when everyones camera was a DV based thing with a firewire port. It also had hit a ceiling in terms of the codebase it was created on. They were getting to a place where they simply couldn't keep just adding stuff on top and calling it newer. Eventually you have to start from scratch so that, in 2011 going forward they have a solid (modern) foundation to build upon and carry iMovie users for another several years.

Could you imagine if they hadn't have redone iMovie when they did, what it would be like now? disastrous. We'd all have core i5 macs, DSLR HD footage and a clunky piece of bloatware that was written 10 years ago that still cant place a line of text over a video and play it back in real time. THIS would be a big problem. It'd still be 32 bit and wouldn't use all of our ram. It wouldn't use openCL or GCD or any of the modern technologies, what... so people could still be content using something they were familiar with 3 years ago?

At a point, you just have to say out with the old, in with the new. Final Cut was getting the same way. Mac pros with 32 Gigs of ram, and their Pro software only using 4GB of it.. and couldn't use but half the processors available? And still, if I took some raw DSLR footage, slapped it on my timeline in FCP7, it ... still... couldn't play back a line of text over a layer of video without pre rendering. THIS WAS A PROBLEM you see?

While I think Apple handled the whole transition to FCPX horribly... they were spot on in looking at what they've got and saying, "ok, guys... what we have now is in no way capable of taking us into the next generation of computing and software scalability. We gotta redo. Ground up." Yeah, they should have released it into the wild a bit more feature complete, but it'll be a solid foundation to build off of in the years to come as computers get much faster and more capable, the software will be able to scale with it (unlike old iMovie and old FCP).

mave1969
Jun 26, 2011, 04:11 AM
it takes around 6 hours each just because stinky Compressor only recognizes one core.
FCP 7 in native format (Pro res 422) = 1.5 hours and then to H264 = 4 hours in Compressor 4. This is so clumsy even for early 90's standards.
By your own calculations this is still saving you time...

garybUK
Jun 26, 2011, 04:14 AM
People saying 'Stick with FCP7 and stop whining' are just plain dumb. Apple has stopped selling this, if you have ever worked in a business you'll know how critical it is to have supported software.

What if you need a new workstation... oh wait can't buy FCP7 anymore .., what if you need to call Apple for support... 'sorry we only support FCPX'

Not good enough, especially when the workstations from Dell & HP are more powerful and cheaper than the 'CURRENT' Mac Pro's, Windows 7 is rock solid.

Now is the real time for Avid and Adobe to take the bull by the horns and make a load of cash.

res1233
Jun 26, 2011, 04:23 AM
People saying 'Stick with FCP7 and stop whining' are just plain dumb. Apple has stopped selling this, if you have ever worked in a business you'll know how critical it is to have supported software.

What if you need a new workstation... oh wait can't buy FCP7 anymore .., what if you need to call Apple for support... 'sorry we only support FCPX'

Not good enough, especially when the workstations from Dell & HP are more powerful and cheaper than the 'CURRENT' Mac Pro's, Windows 7 is rock solid.

Now is the real time for Avid and Adobe to take the bull by the horns and make a load of cash.

I'm sure Apple will hemorrhage a few costumers due to this, but then there are the many people out there whose mac pros are going to be fine till Apple gets around to making FCPX a competitive product, which it currently isn't. Also, there are always ways to get a hold of older versions of software. Amazon still sells it in fact, you just can't get it from Apple anymore. I really think people worry too much. Also, why wouldn't you restore from a backup upon the purchase of a new MP? Why would you have to install anything?

gallofilm
Jun 26, 2011, 04:25 AM
I actually went from FCP7 to iMovie08 in my editing workflow. Why? Because the data organization capabilities of the new iMovie was fundamentally better than FCP7's, and iMovie is enough for most of my edits. I learned from Aperture, which has a similar data organizational model.

iMovie is pretty much FCPX-lite, and the interface is very similar, especially regards to magnetic timelines and trackless design. When editors were going nuts about the feature from the NAB supermeet demo, I was trying to figure out how it was any different from iMovie.

It is now clear that those editors never even bothered learning the iMovie08 trackless use model.

BTW it took Apple 6 months to go from Aperture 1.0 to Aperture 1.1 and another 6 months for Aperture 1.5. I expect a similar schedule for FCPX features upgrades.

FCPX is going to be industry standard in 5 years. There is nothing else that will come close.

The most hilarious part about this debate is seeing the reaction from editors. Their reaction reminds me why they're editors, instead of Directors. They are the bricklayers of the movie industry, instead of the Architect. Their lack of any sort of 5-year vision is quite incredible, and it's obvious they've never made a 5 year business plan, and can only assume that the world will forever exist in the current state.

These people actually think Apple doesn't know what they're doing. LOL. This is Steve Jobs we're talking about here. Must I remind you that Steve founded Pixar and is the single largest individual shareholder at Disney, one of the largest media companies in the world?

Do editors REALLY think he doesn't know anything about editing? REALLY? The guy that founded the company that made movies renowned for their storytelling, doesn't know how to edit to tell a story? REALLY?

Just shows how incredibly stupid so many of these editors are.



Premiere CS5 is way better than FCP7 and FCPX. Canopus is better. Avid is better.

Editors are very important, a good editing job is like second directing. Obviously you are not very familiar with how movies are made. In this case, FCPX is probably OK for you, but you shouldn't criticize professionals workflow if you don't know how it works and what the real needs are in a professional place.

kap91
Jun 26, 2011, 04:34 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_8 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8E401 Safari/6533.18.5)

I really can't believe all the super critical criticism going on with fcpx. The sheer amount of bitterness is ridiculous. Did people really think it was going to play nicely with their existing plugins right from the start without even giving developers time to rewrite? Did they really believe it would be able to open up existing projects even though its clear the program has been completely rewritten and works in a completely new and different way? And what the heck are you doing upgrading your software if you are in the middle of a freaking project?!?!

*

And yes there are some missing features that many higher end workflows need but A) if you are in a situation that uses high end workflows you shouldn't be upgrading immediately anyway because Version 1 software always has bugs and its too big of a risk and B) if they had been paying any attention to the numerous blog postings and other sources of information from notable people in the industry that have had access to it for a while and have talked to engineers instead of ranting after using it for less then 24 hours then they'd know that there are already workarounds for a few of the missing features, that there will be numerous opportunities for 3rd parties to fill niche gaps that Apple has decided to leave open and that Apple will be working with developers soon on that, and they'd also know that apple has made it clear that many features and additions will be coming in the future and from the sound of it in the very near future.

*

It's a completely new program people!!! And one that gets a heck of a lot more right than it gets wrong (and it does get some things wrong...different post though) There is no possible way it could have duplicated all the functionality of FCP7 right from the start.

*

The only thing that people should be complaining about at all is the FCP7 is no longer available for sale - that does seem like a bit of dumb decision to me - but it seems most are not complaining about that they're just too busy giving FCPX 1 star reviews kicking and screaming.

*

Alright, rant done. I'm not normally this harsh but this really bugs me. The people at Apple have put a tremendous amount of effort into making this program and building a robust foundation for the future and it seems hardly anyone can see past the next month. Just give the software developers a chance.

linuxcooldude
Jun 26, 2011, 04:37 AM
Experience, that is why I say to step aside and let the one who know do the talking. As Henry Ford said: if I ask my costumer what they want they will say "faster horses".

No time to experiment with new editing software, the 90s was for that.


It is ironic that you quoted henry ford however. The man was nothing if not a forward-thinker. The car was a very radical thing at the time, possibly one of the most radical inventions ever. I'd say FCPX fits the bill too (minus the most radical invention ever part).

Whats more ironic was Henry Ford waited way too long to update his model-T. Other car manufactures surpassed the Model-T in quality and technology. ( True story )

He also said "You can have the model-T in any color as long as its black." That kind of shows his unwillingness to change.

Great inventor, but as someone has said, not so great forward thinker.

No time to experiment with new editing software, the 90s was for that.

Markets change very quickly, if your unwilling to change, you will die very quickly. Especially in the computer field. The 90's? That was over twenty years ago!

Leddy
Jun 26, 2011, 05:03 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8C148 Safari/6533.18.5)

It has been at least 4 years since a decent update to Final Cut. (As mentioned, version 6 to 7 didn't bring a lot to the table.) For those saying, "stick to version 7 and wait until X is up to the job", understand that may have been a viable alternative 2 years ago, but not now. Not when Avid and Adobe are offering compelling alternatives. Many businesses held out due to the pitch from Apple that X would be a significant update, not that it would be a version 1 not ready for prime time.

It is no wonder they feel angry and betrayed when 80% of a pro workflow is missing. These features are not just capricious whims - as discussed elsewhere. To stick with version 7 which still works, as many have pointed out, makes for an inefficient edit suite due to the need to transcode footage - footage which can be edited natively in other offerings. Inefficiencies and workarounds cost time and we all know what that costs.*

Some of the smug comments on here show a real lack of empathy for the way Apple*has treated it's pro user base.

"Utter disrespect", are words that spring to mind. Now by not openly addressing exactly what features will be returned with the updates that surely are around the corner, it is no wonder many are talking of, or are in the process of jumping ship. Who knows, they may miss the greatest piece of editing software since it's inception - they will however, regain a stable, versatile and proven workflow guaranteed to meet their needs.*

This situation could have been avoided with clear communication. (A sneak peak mentioning new features but not relaying the numerous omissions really doesn't cut it sorry.) That's all it takes. Give your users the opportunity to make informed decisions. If Avid and Adobe can do it regarding their editing software, then so can Apple, surely ...

Best wishes.

daneoni
Jun 26, 2011, 05:10 AM
I really don't understand the whining. It is a completely rewritten software. Things were never gonna be complete at version 1.0. Yet people act like armageddon has come. If it is that big an issue for you Adobe and Avid will be happily waiting for you.

Manderby
Jun 26, 2011, 05:20 AM
I think it's more like

Cause:
FCP7 is written in Carbon.

Effect:
If Apple is going to have to rewrite FCP, they may as well give it a fresh start.

I think you have a fairly valid point there. Cocoa is ok, but tell an old school software engineer (which is required for high performance video editing) that he has to write in Objective-C from now on. He will cry. They needed to start from scratch, and I mean from sub-level, because they even needed to learn a new language and Framework.

Now, let's see what iTunes will be after Cocoaization... oh wait, it has already evolved into the App Store.

Chaos123x
Jun 26, 2011, 05:22 AM
We have to edit and compress files for 6 different cable providers. Just cor Xfinity we have to re compress 8 movies per week into H264 and it takes around 6 hours each just because stinky Compressor only recognizes one core. The new Compressor is multicore but does not talk to FCP 7 so we have to render the movie in FCP 7 in native format (Pro res 422) = 1.5 hours and then to H264 = 4 hours in Compressor 4. This is so clumsy even for early 90's standards.




LOL!!! Just export your movie as a quicktime reference file (doesnt take long at all) then put it through using compressor with a cluster (either the cluster of processors in one mac or use more than one mac with Q-master).

How many years have you been doing this the wrong way? :confused:

Atkins
Jun 26, 2011, 05:29 AM
A perfect example of someone who doesn't look to the future. Someday, once FCPX is fully featured, we should return to this forum for a few chuckles.
A perfect example of someone who doesn't work in the industry and only makes assumptions. As much as I understand and respect a strategy involving burning the ships behind you, it seems that Apple is burning them while people are still on board. Also, how do you know that FCPX will become fully featured?
You can't import older FCP files? Since when opening previous versions' files is a feature??

But I enjoyed you waving your expertise in my face to somehow attempt to salvage your self-image...
No, he showed you that there is the personal element in the discussion. You may talk about future strategies and whatnot, but in reality this is a problem for people who are currently working.

FCPX is at its core a much better product than FCP7 was, it's just lacking in many features, but that will change. I think if you're incapable of seeing that, then my previous statement stands.
Incapable of seeing what? Again, how do you know how it will change??

You don't have experience of software design and software sales though, so surely you should leave it up to the people who do. Apple. They have a plan that you may not fully understand, gramps. What's best for *you* is not what's necessarily best for the end user, the industry or their target consumer moving forward.
And what would that plan be? Btw, you are being patronizing too by stating that he doesn't get "the plan". And he is a part of the industry, he is the end user. And why should he have experience in software design? Nonsense. He knows what he needs for his work.

Actually, they removed $700 from the previous price. Don't you notice it?
Just wait until you start paying for plug-ins to get back your missing features.


Frankly, I like that Apple pushes into new territories all the time, but sometimes it is a bit too quick.

econgeek
Jun 26, 2011, 05:33 AM
There are a group of non-editors who work with video who do what I call a monkey assemble. They aren't conversant in the language of film, let alone editing, but they get hired as the "hands" for an editor. They are trained in rote memorization- push button X to accomplish task Y.

They have no appreciation for moving the industry forward, all they know is that their training is obsolete. Since they don't have talent (or haven't developed it) this hurts their job prospects.

These people hated the original final cut. They hated the original iMovie. They hated iMovie 08, and predictably they hate Final Cut X. They always hate it and then years later they complain when Apple makes things better with a new release and act as if the old release-- which they originally hated-- was the greatest thing.

The only thing they DO like is paying full price every other year when Adobe marketing ups the version number of premiere. Since premiere never advances, they are happy with this because none of their training is obsoleted.

This is also why they go on and on about how "professional" they are. The thing is, editing is editing. Whether you're a teenager, a film school kid, working a weekly-- or even nightly-- TV series, you're still editing. The language is the language.

Final Cut Pro X is a tool, finally, that makes the ability to *edit* vastly better. This is true for everybody-- professionals like me, and all the way down to wedding photographers! ( Just kidding, I respect wedding photographers, they do a job I would never be able to tolerate, just joking because so many of these "professionals" look down their noses at wedding photographers.)

The people complaining aren't really editors.

Apple, as always, is dragging them kicking and screaming into the future.

macnerd93
Jun 26, 2011, 05:33 AM
I really don't understand anyone on here, why has it been ruined?

We knew what its been like for a couple of months, I've had it since it came out the other day. At the moment i've been editing a wedding video with it and its been top notch, so easy to use compared to FCP 7 miles faster too, I cant wait the the next revisions, because its only going to get better & faster.

I think some of the pro's out here are getting worried that video editing is going to be made "child's play"
and that some of the learned skills wont be required as much.

Then there's also the teachers on the editing training courses who are going to be out of jobs. I'm a Media Production student at college so use to do a lot of editing using Premiere and FCS3, but I am really liking Final Cut Pro X

The old FCP 7 was okay, but even me being Apple's biggest fanboy had to say it couldn't rival Premiere, the technologies it was running on where accident and it was beyond sluggish even on my MBP with 8 gig of ram, express did run better, but then it lacked some of the pro features, it was about time of an overhaul :)

econgeek
Jun 26, 2011, 05:39 AM
A perfect example of someone who doesn't work in the industry and only makes assumptions.

Speaking of assumptions, you assume he doesn't work in the industry.

Also, as someone who's been editing since it required a fancy razor blade, custom tape and lining up sprocket holes, I am getting tired of seeing the fallacy of argument from false authority.

If you have an argument, make it. If your argument rests on a claim that you "work in the industry" or are a "professional", you've already lost (logically.)

If you're an editor, then you should appreciate when the state of the art is advanced like it has here. If you're a technician, you're going to complain because your tools changed.

yodaxl7
Jun 26, 2011, 05:40 AM
Apple should have called it final cut express plus. The pro parts are coming!!:D

econgeek
Jun 26, 2011, 05:41 AM
I think some of the pro's out here are getting worried that video editing is going to be made "child's play" and that some of the learned skills wont be required as much

That's an excellent point. Those who rely on talent, are happy to have a tool that lets them better express their talent. Those who rely on learned skills, are unhappy to have their tool changed, and possibly the need for "assistants" like them diminished.

Prediction: These FCP X threads will read like this (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=501) in a couple years.

To me, they already do. And I remember being on slashdot listening to them whine about the original iPod and predict its failure.

They complained about the original final cut.

They complained about the original imovie.

They complained about imovie 08.

People predicted the iphone would be a disaster.

They said the ipad sounded like a feminine hygene product.

They laughed at the iMac.

In a way, this kind of reaction is to be expected when you release a revolutionary product.... so this absurdness is probably a very good sign for final cut!

Ted Witcher
Jun 26, 2011, 05:51 AM
The app will eventually be fine, I'm sure, although the "dumbing-down" criticism has some validity -- Apple is clearly simplifying their pro apps for the great middle region of market share. But they could've saved themselves a lot of hate mail by 1) Releasing FCPX quietly, soft selling it as a v. 1 that will improve over time, and 2) Allowing FCP7 or the whole suite to continue to be sold. Hell, they could even put the studio set on the App Store collectively or individually, and even for the same price. That way they don't have to spend money to make, ship, stock physical copies of something they eventually want people to stop buying... I mean, they have the code, it's paid for, just put it on the server. Isn't that the genius of the App Store approach from a distribution standpoint? Then there wouldn't be anything to complain about -- one stable product that has adherents, and one fresh up-and-comer that people will continue to get excited about as it improves.

It's a corporate culture thing, and the Apple haters out there do have a bit of a point. This company is growing tremendously more control-freaky with increasing success. The vertically-integrated, walled-garden thing, which has its costs and benefits. They (Steve) have products that work great together so that you won't need anything else -- that's the line -- but in addition to that, says Apple, we're going to tell you how to use the products and forbid you from using them another way, because, well, we've already thought of the best way and you should just trust us.

Atkins
Jun 26, 2011, 05:52 AM
Speaking of assumptions, you assume he doesn't work in the industry.
Fair enough.

If you're an editor, then you should appreciate when the state of the art is advanced like it has here. If you're a technician, you're going to complain because your tools changed.
As I said, advances are always welcome. Sometimes they come too fast though. You tell me what you think about the inability to import older FCP files.
Also, everybody is talking about advancing the industry, but forget to look at the more human element. Those technicians you are talking about have every right to be unhappy. Rather than telling them that it is a necessary evil, the replies are mostly "you are lazy whiners".

And I also don't understand statements like "Apple know better" or "Apple have a plan". These aren't arguments at all.

And one more thing: do you really disagree that there are very important features missing?

econgeek
Jun 26, 2011, 05:52 AM
I make 120K a year and I have 8 video editors, I handle and 3 graphic stations for 4 different cable channels... I am in the right field , sorry your lack of experience can make you see beyond your nose.

Experience, that is why I say to step aside and let the one who know do the talking. As Henry Ford said: if I ask my costumer what they want they will say "faster horses".


Sounds like you don't do any actual editing. Sounds like you have a workflow built around a tool. And now you're complaining because someone released a different tool for a different workflow.

Apple gave you a car, and you're complaining because you can't feed it hay, the sugar isn't having the desired effect and it won't fit in your barn stall!

JesterJJZ
Jun 26, 2011, 05:59 AM
Did they really believe it would be able to open up existing projects

No, no one thought we would even need to question it. It was probably the last thing on everyone's mind's. It's kinda a given in a professional product environment.

If Adobe made the next Photoshop with half the capability of the last one and unable to open old Photoshop files the world would implode...

Apple introduced FCPX and looked at the current FCP user base and said:

"Ok...so you can stay on FCP7 if you want, but we're not gonna support it anymore and it may not run on our new OS or any of our new hardware. FCPX is what we have now. It's missing a lot of features and it currently doesn't work with most of your 3rd party hardware or pipelines. Oh, and it can't open any of your old projects, sorry. Get used to FCPX or get out."

Very professional...

It's not up to Apple to tell me how I should edit. With the inception of FCP, Apple has been listening to us and has updated FCP with things that we needed and mattered to us. Sure it needed an update, but started over was a bit extreme. They just scrapped everything we've been used to and gave us X. I would have been happy with a straight 64bit port of FCP7.

Change is great, but Apple threw the baby out with the diaper...

econgeek
Jun 26, 2011, 06:00 AM
You tell me what you think about the inability to import older FCP files.

I think it is unclear if that is a cost of the upgrade, or if that is an oversight, or if that's a feature that is under development but that was problematic and had to be pulled from shipping because it wasn't yet ready.

Make a decision to upgrade or not with that limitation in mind. It is quite possible that the idea of "importing FCP files" is actually as meaningless as execting pages to be able to import numbers files. The underlying concepts and structure may be completely radically different.

Final Cut is a product of the 1990s. This is 2011. Think about how much computers have changed since then. Consequently the appropriate data structures are radically different. Apple may have needed to make a break to allow for growth in the modern era and picked this spot to do it.

Nobody says you have to switch over. If that's a deal breaker for you, save your $300.

The problem is, saying that this dealbreaker for you somehow means the product sucks or that anyone who appreciates its advantages is an amateur or doesn't know what they're doing.

Nordichund
Jun 26, 2011, 06:02 AM
Reading this thread reminds me of the time Apple decided to cut out the floppy disk:D

econgeek
Jun 26, 2011, 06:03 AM
The app will eventually be fine, I'm sure, although the "dumbing-down" criticism has some validity

I remember when DOS adherents would denigrate the Mac as the computer for the computer illiterate. My career has been in software (video software but also am a filmmaker.)

The Mac being easier to use meant that those who were proficient got more done faster.

You don't see programmers complaining that Xcode is dumbed down from working in the command line... instead we laugh at those unix weenies stuck in the command line.

I see nothing dumbed down about final cut. I think the idea that computers need to be difficult to use, and such difficulty is superior to be ... quaint.

Apple introduced FCPX and looked at the current FCP user base and said:

Apple said none of those things.

JesterJJZ
Jun 26, 2011, 06:05 AM
Reading this thread reminds me of the time Apple decided to cut out the floppy disk:D

Yeah...but we could buy a USB one and still use them.

ksgant
Jun 26, 2011, 06:10 AM
Maybe they are actually very serious about new FCPX and it will have all required features very soon.

If all required features are "soon", then they should have just held up release until they were in there. But I have a feeling that "soon" will be a year from now.

I could be wrong and actually hope I am.

Atkins
Jun 26, 2011, 06:11 AM
The problem is, saying that this dealbreaker for you somehow means the product sucks or that anyone who appreciates its advantages is an amateur or doesn't know what they're doing.
Oh no, that's absolutely not my point. Personally, that is in fact the product for me. What I am trying to say is that many of those who are unhappy have very valid points. That is pretty much it.

Ted Witcher
Jun 26, 2011, 06:16 AM
I remember when DOS adherents would denigrate the Mac as the computer for the computer illiterate. My career has been in software (video software but also am a filmmaker.)

The Mac being easier to use meant that those who were proficient got more done faster.

You don't see programmers complaining that Xcode is dumbed down from working in the command line... instead we laugh at those unix weenies stuck in the command line.

I see nothing dumbed down about final cut. I think the idea that computers need to be difficult to use, and such difficulty is superior to be ... quaint.

I didn't say it should be difficult to use. But they haven't yet added features that pros use daily, yet released the product anyway. It's simply not finished yet, because you can't continue on working, simply starting your next project with it if you're a pro. The dumbing-down I refer to is stuff that soccer moms might need: themes, templates, **** like that that real creatives won't go near. Aperture is the same way, with Faces and Places and faux-corkboard backgrounds and larger cartoony icons and such. I use it and like it, but it did have that iPhoto Pro vibe when it added that kind of stuff.

For FCPX, pro editors of movies and TV shows, some of whom have built whole workflows based on this product need bins, not facial recognition... need OMF export, stuff like that. Soccer moms with the family vacation and podcast guys and low-impact editors don't. Like I said, it'll all eventually appear, I'm sure, but they should've just slipped this one out as an up-and-comer, rather than as Revolutionary! Magical! If You Don't Like It, You're a Luddite! This Is The New Way! and discontinuing the previous product, even as an App Store-only offering. Which is the customary way you would evolve/transition the marketplace.

Jerome Morrow
Jun 26, 2011, 06:59 AM
If all required features are "soon", then they should have just held up release until they were in there. But I have a feeling that "soon" will be a year from now.

I could be wrong and actually hope I am.

Releasing now gave them a lot of very importand feedback (not talking about whiners here). If they released 6 months from now they would be doing the same thing, but they would have wasted 6 months.

*LTD*
Jun 26, 2011, 07:02 AM
Apple's giving consumers the tools to become prosumers.

Smartest thing ever.

Will this work on my iPad? Now I can teach grandma to edit and she'll actually understand.

Welcome to the new reality. Everyone's a pro now. How does that make you feel? I can learn FCPX in no time now and do some hot-**** work, just like the big boys. Then I'll post my creations online. YouTube? Nah, screw that. I'll stream it thru Twitter. Instagram . . . Instareel? Sounds nice.

Simplify, simplify, simplify, but still keep the damn thing powerful, and make Joe Average not so average anymore.

Purple haze, guys. Just drop a few and sit down with Apple's creative tools. iPad version's available too.

Apple = populist approach to "complicated computing." We're all Pros now.

ksgant
Jun 26, 2011, 07:08 AM
Releasing now gave them a lot of very importand feedback (not talking about whiners here). If they released 6 months from now they would be doing the same thing, but they would have wasted 6 months.

Actually that's a good point. But they certainly could have handled it differently and not just killed the old Final Cut Studio until the new one was up to snuff.

iphonepiephone
Jun 26, 2011, 07:17 AM
I'll tell you what the biggest problem is with FCPX; the users. Had FCPX been all they'd ever known or used, it would be the best thing since sliced bread, and they "wouldn't be able to work without it". The same FUD was spread around when iMovie '08 was first released - people moaned and whined like no tomorrow, for the simple reason that they weren't used to that way of working, but do you ever hear iMovie complaints en masse, now? Nope.

We all get comfortable in our surroundings - a bit like settling into a home after a number of years. We may be offered one 10 times the size, with all the modern conveniences and time saving gizmos, but we like our home, because we have settled into it, regardless of the cold logic and efficiency that may prevail by moving to the bigger, newer house.

People are the biggest obstacle - they stubbornly refuse to accept change, no matter whether bad or good, and that is a part of human nature. We often cannot see past the end of our noses, no matter how "modern" and "cutting edge" we feel we are.

An example of this is the fact that we fool ourselves into thinking we're all ultra high-tech and modern, with our amazing interfaces, touchscreen iPhones, i7 iMacs and jQuery web UIs... but then when you consider what powers all this technology, it is a massive crash back down to earth - we're still burning coal which is dug out of the ground using hard, back-breaking labour. COAL - dirty, smelly, inefficient... but because we cannot see the source of our power, we ignore the problem. As far as we're concerned, we plug in the MacBook, and it comes on. Period.

My point is that there is always a better and more efficient way of doing something, but no matter how much better FCPX may be than previous versions, there will always be an uproar when something new is released, because people are scared, and partially (or wholly, it seems) unwilling to accept that tape & DVD are dying formats, and because Apple have seen far beyond that horizon of their inevitable death, and made something better suited to eliminate clunky, old fashioned formats, they don't like it, because they feel alienated and threatened.

It is indeed revision 1.0 of FCPX, but could be seen as revision *4* of iMovie, in a way - it's not as if Apple haven't had four years of experience and feedback, upon which to judge the failure or success of this new interface and workflow methodology. The things that are missing will gradually come to be patched in again through updates, but it is by no means a "bad" product at all, we're just stuck in our ways, and refuse to give things a chance. The avalanche of complaints and bad reviews is the sum total of just a few days of use - that's hardly a reasonable amount of time to get to know the software in depth, discovering all its' little quirks and hidden gems, deep in the UI & workflow.

See beyond the surface, and "think different" to the way in which you are used to thinking - is this not what Mac users always used to proclaim? Try something new, give it six months of daily use, and then you'll be suitably qualified to moan and deride it, if it still doesn't achieve the same product at the end, albeit with less pain and inefficiency.

Humans are creatures of habit; therein lies probably the biggest barrier to using FCPX. If you've used iMovie, you're already used to the slicker, newer and more intuitive way of working. It takes getting used to, but is that not worth some investment? I think so, and I think we should stick with it, because Apple rarely fail with a product - why should this be an exception to that rule?

Is the truth of the matter that we feel threatened? The skills and long-winded techniques that we have grown to use over many years, are now consolidated into a couple of mouse clicks - something simple, that even the novice can achieve? Is it that this incredible software has the potential to turn many, MANY more of those who were put off older versions of FCP due to the scaryness and complex interface, into people who can finally realise their creative visions, and turn that into something visible? Do you feel undermined, and less "professional" because the unemployed girl in the flat next door, living on £65 a week, now has the potential and the toolset to produce something that, in time, could rival your work, albeit with less investment in those "skills" you had to sweat over for weeks, because Apple have purged the clunky UI and inefficiency out of the product, so that it makes more sense? It may not make more sense if you are used to doing things the silly, long-winded way, but the end product will look the same, so why not?

Walk into using FCPX with a fresh perspective, and forget that you've convinced yourself it is a bad product, and ignore all others around you who slate it, and then you'll almost certainly grow to love it.

PS: I'm a software engineer, and also a Premiere Pro editor (lesser, but learning), After effects creative, and general Mac/Linux/Windows geek. I don't tell myself I am professional, but everyone else does, and I still cannot work out why. Maybe it's because I don't strut about proclaiming to be professional and know more than everyone else, or telling others that their way is "wrong", even if I may think it to myself. I have zero qualifications in software science, editing or anything computer based, but people from all over seem to think I am brilliant, and tell me often :$ and even my friend who owns a computer shop calls me up for advice on a regular basis - how's that for flattery! :)

My point? You're as skilled as you are - no matter what you tell yourself or others. Words on a certificate don't make you any better than anyone else, and years of skills and shortcuts you may have learned, that have now been replaced by drag 'n' drop, don't make you any "better", just because the way you learned to do that, was 10x as hard as it is now in just two mouse clicks. Software is starting to reach a stage where the masses can edit, focusing on the creative process, and not the six month learning curve of importing differing file formats & framerates, or the locking of tracks so as not to punch them out of sync through not knowing any better, and then struggling for 3 days trying to fix the mess.

We all have potential, and Apple help us realise it, so give FCPX the chance *we all* deserve.

Jerome Morrow
Jun 26, 2011, 07:22 AM
Actually that's a good point. But they certainly could have handled it differently and not just killed the old Final Cut Studio until the new one was up to snuff.

Yes taking down FCS is whole other story, though i upgraded from FCS2 just few months ago :).

dethmaShine
Jun 26, 2011, 07:24 AM
Apple's giving consumers the tools to become prosumers.

Smartest thing ever.

Will this work on my iPad? Now I can teach grandma to edit and she'll actually understand.

Welcome to the new reality. Everyone's a pro now. How does that make you feel? I can learn FCPX in no time now and do some hot-**** work, just like the big boys. Then I'll post my creations online. YouTube? Nah, screw that. I'll stream it thru Twitter. Instagram . . . Instareel? Sounds nice.

Simplify, simplify, simplify, but still keep the damn thing powerful, and make Joe Average not so average anymore.

Purple haze, guys. Just drop a few and sit down with Apple's creative tools. iPad version's available too.

Apple = populist approach to "complicated computing." We're all Pros now.

Uhhh... please?

Just stop it already.

AppliedMicro
Jun 26, 2011, 07:27 AM
Welcome to the new reality. Everyone's a pro now. How does that make you feel? I can learn FCPX in no time now and do some hot-**** work, just like the big boys.

Apple = populist approach to "complicated computing." We're all Pros now.
Uh-oh. I guess, you now have some of the old-school big boys are foaming with rage about your stance. ;)

I agree. Only a few years ago, video editing was either a serious and time-consuming hobby or your job. I personally never could (or wanted) to figure iMovie 06. Found iMovie '08 a breeze to figure out and get something done with quickly.

Actually that's a good point. But they certainly could have handled it differently and not just killed the old Final Cut Studio until the new one was up to snuff.
That wouldn't have been Apple-like at all.
Apple likes to make strong statements about their transitions.

FCP 7 is the end of the road for old-school Final Cut. The future is X.
Software distribution is moving to digital downloads, even if many people still have to live without broadband.

Thus, FCP 7 is discontinued, FCPX & Lion are app-store only (no DVDs at all).

Jerome Morrow
Jun 26, 2011, 07:34 AM
FCPX & Lion are app-store only (no DVDs at all).

Distribution method change is not the end of the world, on the contrary it's a step forward.


I'll tell you what the biggest problem is with FCPX; the users. Had FCPX been all they'd ever known or used, it would be the best thing since sliced bread, and they "wouldn't be able to work without it". The same FUD was spread around when iMovie '08 was first released - people moaned and whined like no tomorrow, for the simple reason that they weren't used to that way of working, but do you ever hear iMovie complaints en masse, now? Nope.

We all get comfortable in our surroundings - a bit like settling into a home after a number of years. We may be offered one 10 times the size, with all the modern conveniences and time saving gizmos, but we like our home, because we have settled into it, regardless of the cold logic and efficiency that may prevail by moving to the bigger, newer house.

People are the biggest obstacle - they stubbornly refuse to accept change, no matter whether bad or good, and that is a part of human nature. We often cannot see past the end of our noses, no matter how "modern" and "cutting edge" we feel we are.

An example of this is the fact that we fool ourselves into thinking we're all ultra high-tech and modern, with our amazing interfaces, touchscreen iPhones, i7 iMacs and jQuery web UIs... but then when you consider what powers all this technology, it is a massive crash back down to earth - we're still burning coal which is dug out of the ground using hard, back-breaking labour. COAL - dirty, smelly, inefficient... but because we cannot see the source of our power, we ignore the problem. As far as we're concerned, we plug in the MacBook, and it comes on. Period.

My point is that there is always a better and more efficient way of doing something, but no matter how much better FCPX may be than previous versions, there will always be an uproar when something new is released, because people are scared, and partially (or wholly, it seems) unwilling to accept that tape & DVD are dying formats, and because Apple have seen far beyond that horizon of their inevitable death, and made something better suited to eliminate clunky, old fashioned formats, they don't like it, because they feel alienated and threatened.

It is indeed revision 1.0 of FCPX, but could be seen as revision *4* of iMovie, in a way - it's not as if Apple haven't had four years of experience and feedback, upon which to judge the failure or success of this new interface and workflow methodology. The things that are missing will gradually come to be patched in again through updates, but it is by no means a "bad" product at all, we're just stuck in our ways, and refuse to give things a chance. The avalanche of complaints and bad reviews is the sum total of just a few days of use - that's hardly a reasonable amount of time to get to know the software in depth, discovering all its' little quirks and hidden gems, deep in the UI & workflow.

See beyond the surface, and "think different" to the way in which you are used to thinking - is this not what Mac users always used to proclaim? Try something new, give it six months of daily use, and then you'll be suitably qualified to moan and deride it, if it still doesn't achieve the same product at the end, albeit with less pain and inefficiency.

Humans are creatures of habit; therein lies probably the biggest barrier to using FCPX. If you've used iMovie, you're already used to the slicker, newer and more intuitive way of working. It takes getting used to, but is that not worth some investment? I think so, and I think we should stick with it, because Apple rarely fail with a product - why should this be an exception to that rule?

Is the truth of the matter that we feel threatened? The skills and long-winded techniques that we have grown to use over many years, are now consolidated into a couple of mouse clicks - something simple, that even the novice can achieve? Is it that this incredible software has the potential to turn many, MANY more of those who were put off older versions of FCP due to the scaryness and complex interface, into people who can finally realise their creative visions, and turn that into something visible? Do you feel undermined, and less "professional" because the unemployed girl in the flat next door, living on £65 a week, now has the potential and the toolset to produce something that, in time, could rival your work, albeit with less investment in those "skills" you had to sweat over for weeks, because Apple have purged the clunky UI and inefficiency out of the product, so that it makes more sense? It may not make more sense if you are used to doing things the silly, long-winded way, but the end product will look the same, so why not?

Walk into using FCPX with a fresh perspective, and forget that you've convinced yourself it is a bad product, and ignore all others around you who slate it, and then you'll almost certainly grow to love it.

OMG that's how i make sense of things too.

CindyRed
Jun 26, 2011, 07:35 AM
Doesn't it suck when the company that made the best enterprise solutions realize that there's more money in consumer solutions?

Jerome Morrow
Jun 26, 2011, 07:37 AM
Doesn't it suck when the company that made the best enterprise solutions realize that there's more money in consumer solutions?

No.

ggbrown
Jun 26, 2011, 07:39 AM
I am sick of the stupid kids who has no idea of video editing posting their useless garbage in here.

Final Cut Pro X IS GARBAGE!!!!

I work in a TV station, we had no less than 900 projects in FCP 7 and is just no tolerable not having FCP X not reading those projects 100%. We are not exporting in any other stinky format, WE JUST CAN NOT! WE HAVE NO TIME!


Out of curiosity, are you forced to go to FCP X right now?

It seems to me that with all the uproar over this, the strongest statement the video editing community could make is to NOT adopt the product at this time, and wait until any substandard/missing features are addressed by Apple.

There are a lot of "This sucks! I can't use it!" statements being made....so people...don't use it.

Just sayin'

AppliedMicro
Jun 26, 2011, 07:40 AM
Distribution method change is not the end of the world, on the contrary it's a step forward.
Digital downloads are a step forward, yes.
Discontinuing DVD sales today is not.

See the point?

TiggsPanther
Jun 26, 2011, 07:40 AM
Releasing now gave them a lot of very importand feedback (not talking about whiners here). If they released 6 months from now they would be doing the same thing, but they would have wasted 6 months.
Actually that's a good point. But they certainly could have handled it differently and not just killed the old Final Cut Studio until the new one was up to snuff.

These two points together are the real issue.

Advancing the technology, cool. Bringing in a new way of doing things, fantastic. Getting feedback from the userbase, all the better.

Problem is, they didn't handle it as well as they could have. Betas (public or closed) would have helped. A proper transitional period where you can buy either version would have smoothed a lot of edges. Make it look like FCPX is the successor, not the only way it's going to be anymore. At least they shouldn't have dropped the old version before the new version had feature-parity.

I'm not an editor. I don't do much with video. Played briefly with iMovieHD but didn't have a camcorder until my iBook was too old, or a new mac until HD was canned completely. Did not get on with it at all. Oddly, this looks closer to what I'd want to use. (Actually, it looks like what I wish iMovie had become, and what is probably a decent successor to FCE)

And that's my point. This looks cool and interesting to me, a complete amateur. Someone with no pre-existing workflow. Someone who is not a "Pro".

Jerome Morrow
Jun 26, 2011, 07:41 AM
Digital downloads are a step forward, yes.
Discontinuing DVD sales today is not.

See the point?

That's a negative, captain.

Jerome Morrow
Jun 26, 2011, 07:44 AM
Betas (public or closed) would have helped.

I doubt it needs that kind of testing. Apple just wants people to use it and tell what they think (all the moaning about lack of feature x put aside).

spooky2k
Jun 26, 2011, 07:48 AM
Very professional...



Actually, on every project I've ever worked on there has been no molly cuddling. It's always been 'this is how it is. Do it or get out.' In the professional world, there's no time for words that make you feel warm and fuzzy. Step up to the plate, or don't. I'd argue that Apple are being very professional by realising that some people wouldn't like this upgrade but are not going out of their way to wrap us FCP users in cotton wool.

For everyone posting on this forum so much, you could be poking and prodding around in this software to see how it works and what you think would make it better, and then feeding that back to Apple. You think the companies that make plug-ins for FCP or big time Hollywood editors are doing anything else?

This is my last reply in this particular thread. The whining of techs who are beginning to understand they'll be obselite soon is overwhelming. As I said earlier, use this time to get ahead of the pack or don't. Your choice.

Aeolius
Jun 26, 2011, 07:49 AM
Digital downloads are a step forward, yes.

Tell that to the folks with data caps. Cloud computing and the app store seem at odds with ISPs, these days.

As for FCP.. I was an iMovie '06 user. When iMovie '08 was released, I found the interface confusing and nonintuitive. I all but stopped editing movies, after that.

iphonepiephone
Jun 26, 2011, 07:50 AM
OMG that's how i make sense of things too.

Could you explain, please? :)

TiggsPanther
Jun 26, 2011, 07:50 AM
Doesn't it suck when the company that made the best enterprise solutions realize that there's more money in consumer solutions?

For the consumers, no. ;-)

For the professionals, who probably had a reason for choosing that particular enterprise solution over the competitions, definitely.

Staying stagnant is never the answer. However, there is something to be said for recognising that people use (and stick with) your product (your brand) because of what it is. And I've seen other software (amateur, pro, games, anything really) where the same thing has happened. A company comes out with something new but slaps an old brand name on it. It's still good. But it's not what people go to the brand for.

Like the original article said, if Apple had called this something completely different, or even just slightly different(*), there would have been none of this outcry.
This does not look like bad software. It does not, however, look like what people except from "Final Cut Pro". Sticking an "X" on does not make enough of a branding change to change people's expectations. A new or altered name, however, would

(*) Final Cut Advanced, anyone?
Or something similar to keep the "final Cut" vibe whilst still conveying the sence of something totaly new.

chrfr
Jun 26, 2011, 07:50 AM
Out of curiosity, are you forced to go to FCP X right now?

An organization has no option if it needs to add an additional license of Final Cut Studio.

Chris Blount
Jun 26, 2011, 07:54 AM
Wow. Just wow. You people are nuts. As an editing professional myself, I have been digging into FCPX over the last few days. While it still needs some work, it's going to increase my productivity 10 fold. Background rendering is fast and organizing clips is a breeze.

The old version of FCP has a very steep learning curve. It's complicated and takes almost a doctorate to master. It's very easy to get frustrated. FCPX is MUCH easier to understand. Anyone, pro or not can jump into this program and put out some pretty darn good videos. It seems that many professionals have a stick up their rear and think that a program must be expensive and complicated in order to be a "professional" product. Are you guys so threatened that some teenager is going to swoop in and make you look bad?

Come on people. Times are changing. Get with the program. I have been doing video editing for 25 years and FCPX has made it fun again. I think you guys are looking at this all wrong.

iphonepiephone
Jun 26, 2011, 07:56 AM
Wow. Just wow. You people are nuts. As an editing professional myself, I have been digging into FCPX over the last few days. While it still needs some work, it's going to increase my productivity 10 fold. Background rendering is fast and organizing clips is a breeze.

The old version of FCP has a very steep learning curve. It's complicated and takes almost a doctorate to master. It's very easy to get frustrated. FCPX is MUCH easier to understand. Anyone, pro or not can jump into this program and put out some pretty darn good videos. It seems that many professionals have a stick up their rear and think that a program must be expensive and complicated in order to be a "professional" product. Are you guys so threatened that some teenager is going to swoop in and make you look bad?

Come on people. Times are changing. Get with the program. I have been doing video editing for 25 years and FCPX has made it fun again. I think you guys are looking at this all wrong.

I like the way you think - the way that Apple think. We should work for Apple, no? :D

Seriously though, SO true. The pro editors are feeling threatened by the advance from the antiquated way of working, so vent on MR, showing how professional they are *sigh*.

pmz
Jun 26, 2011, 07:58 AM
Stop blaming Ubillos.

This is pure Apple arrogance in 2011.

Look at the MobileMe > iCloud transition. Its the same thing. They're starting from scratch on an established product, and its pissing off current users because they're getting some thing new that is wholly incomplete.

I'd rather pay for MobileMe than get iCloud for free, thats how bad it is.

Same with Final Cut X. It's new and incomplete, by comparison to what it replaces. I'm sure its a great program and will grow over time, but its a step backward for the meantime and will be a long time before it catches up. Same with iCloud.

Both Final Cut X & iCloud will ultimately be better than what they replace, but not immediately, to the disappointment of many many users.

itsokay
Jun 26, 2011, 07:58 AM
Tell that to the folks with data caps. Cloud computing and the app store seem at odds with ISPs, these days.

As for FCP.. I was an iMovie '06 user. When iMovie '08 was released, I found the interface confusing and nonintuitive. I all but stopped editing movies, after that.

you should have given it time, my friend, and read the manual or viewed the youtube tutorials. even the 'pros' had to study the innerworkings of their tools to make it sing. :)

Chaos123x
Jun 26, 2011, 07:59 AM
Wow. Just wow. You people are nuts. As an editing professional myself, I have been digging into FCPX over the last few days. While it still needs some work, it's going to increase my productivity 10 fold. Background rendering is fast and organizing clips is a breeze.

The old version of FCP has a very steep learning curve. It's complicated and takes almost a doctorate to master. It's very easy to get frustrated. FCPX is MUCH easier to understand. Anyone, pro or not can jump into this program and put out some pretty darn good videos. It seems that many professionals have a stick up their rear and think that a program must be expensive and complicated in order to be a "professional" product. Are you guys so threatened that some teenager is going to swoop in and make you look bad?

Come on people. Times are changing. Get with the program. I have been doing video editing for 25 years and FCPX has made it fun again. I think you guys are looking at this all wrong.



I don't know man I learned FCP in a day (from coming from premiere).

Still have not got my head around iMovie 11.

Sometimes easier makes it harder, if that makes any sense.

guzhogi
Jun 26, 2011, 08:01 AM
Doesn't it suck when the company that made the best enterprise solutions realize that there's more money in consumer solutions?

My feeling is although there's more money in the consumer sector, that doesn't mean the pros are unimportant. Kinda like the difference between sanitation engineers and pro basketball players. The basketball players make more money, so does that mean everyone should be a basketball player and no one a sanitation engineer? I'll put it this way: what would you rather live without, basketball or a toilet that drains properly? Yeah, I'm exaggerating for effect, but you get where I'm going. I know there are other options, but with the talent, money & resources Apple has or can get, why can't they focus on both consumers and professionals?

Also, I kinda miss some of the features of iMovie '06. Like some people on this thread, I'm just a consumer and I did some home movies/slideshows of when my sister and later my cousin got married, plus I work at a school that uses iMovie for school projects. Basic stuff, but I liked having the option to put in cool titles, effects, transitions, and chapter markers. Geethree.com and some really cool plug-ins for iMovie '06. But iMovie '08 removed a lot of the features I liked. Though I do find it easier to import and find my movie clips in iMovie '08. I just wish iMovie '08 kept all the features of iMovie '06. Tough I don't use FCP, I wish they did the same.

I'm the kind of person where I could understand changing something if it needs to, but not change for the sake of change. If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

Chris Blount
Jun 26, 2011, 08:06 AM
I don't know man I learned FCP in a day (from coming from premiere).

Still have not got my head around iMovie 11.

Sometimes easier makes it harder, if that makes any sense.Understandable and it does make sense. I think the paradigm shift might be giving you some problems. You will get there. :)

seamuskrat
Jun 26, 2011, 08:06 AM
I know many will disagree with me but in some ways what Apple is doing is a good thing.

First, let me state I disagree with some of their hard sell of the new 'way'. FCP 7 should not be immediately discontinued and shelved. Many people make their living with Pro software and ANY new upgrade, especially a rewrite is fraught with issues and growing pains. Apple should still make this available. I also disagree with the whole App Store force feed. This is the future, no doubt. But intrinsicly I hate having it forced to me as if I have no choice.

That said, Apple is pushing progress. What makes Apple great is that they have no sacred cows. They constantly think of ways to think outside the norm. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

To push the envelope of thinking, a company has to take risks, and do things differently. Progress is all about thinking differently. Put differently innovation by its deasign is doing something in a new manner. For innovation to succeed it usually has to do what it accomplishes better, faster, easier or cheaper than what it replaces.

Apple has constanly innovated and forced changes our way. Some were winners, others major failures, and many just evolutionary changes. But without these spurts forward we all stagnate. How many of us scoffed at the first iPod. An expensive MP3 player to carry so much of my music, more than I could practically listen too at any given point. Apple showed the world a different way to interact with their music and changed the way we do this. Even going back to 1984, the Mac was different. The GUI was relatively new, and the original Mac caused people to think about how they interacted with their computers in a different manner. Some faought hard and resisted the GUI and loved their command line use. But in the end, for mosts tasks the GUI windowed interface we have come to use was superior.

For Apple to remain competetive and relevant it must constantly innovate and evolve. Part of that is reacting to technology. The shift from PPC to Intel is an example of that. Wholesale shifts in code had to be rewritten, new APIs develoepd and evaloed. Cocoa was not wonderful at version 1.0. It is a far more robust and feature rich development environment now, as is OSX. An app like FCP was legacy. Millions of lines of code written in older development forma for a different architecture. At some point you take a chance and begin anew.

So, FCPX. I am not a professional video editor, as i do not make my living doing this. I did go to film school and I have made many films for the museum and aquarium industry so I appreciate the uses of FCP. Is FCPX what i wanted it to be? Yes and no. It is different and different is hard. For starters, I have to start anew as it is a challenge to import old projects if not impossible. So I took some of my raw work and gave it a shot. I admit I was lost at first. I kept trying to do it the FCP 7 way and ran into roadblocks. When I thought of it as FCP8 instead of FCPX I hated it. I then read some tips and feedback on David Pogue's interview and realized I was going about this all wrong. I tried again with a new perspective.

FCPX is a different application. It does have some very nice features and abilities. I was able to make what i think of as a nicer cut of my final video than I did originally in FCP7. Not because FCP7 was worse, but because FCPX was different and I approached the entire process differently.

Apple is making us Think Different. It can be a good thing. For those that reley on any application for production and critical use, a 1.0 product is not for you. Ideally you can run side by side and ease yourself in. Alas, Apple is making up jump into the cold water with both feet. Even Lion is forcing us to starting shifting our paradigm about GUI and how we interact with our computer. Lets face it, the GUI mouse driven windowed world has been around for 30+ years. We have added on tons of useful features, but we are just doing incremental enhancements, not anything evolutionary. I think Apple is positioning Lion as a stepping stone to help teach us to interact differently with our computers. It will be hard and may of us will resist. I like my iPhone and iPad but I don't wany my MacPro and iMac to act like one. yet. Howevermuch like the original iPod, I have not yet experienced the full benefits and had time to create my own workflow that may in fact be superior.

FCPX won't be for everyone. I suspect Apple will listen and return more of the missing features in future updates. As the product matures I am confident it will be production ready. Why did they release it now? Hard to say. Business logic says the product is ready to go and will generate sales and can grown upon. Some say this bumpy start has tarnished the name of Final Cut and perhaps it has. But a computer and software is a tool If the tool gets better and that is validated by others then most will realize they are at a disadvantage by not using it. So for fome FCPX is ready, for some pros it needs more time. For others, a vocal but still a minority, they will resist change as hard as they can. If you are in a creative business and resist new ideas, it may be time to rethink things a bit. New is different. I can be better and worse, often at the same time. But the set up you were using last week still works the same so for now you have lost nothing and gained something new to play with.

My last point is the App Store. I like the convenience. Instant gratification. No waitng for UPS or FedEx and shipping. I like the ...... well, that is all I like. For a $30 app, no disk is not a big deal. For a $300 app, or an OS I feel a disc is a requirement. I FEEL that way. Can I work without a disk? Probably, and Apple thinks so. I would wish Apple would offer a disk version of Lion. What I fear is that Apple will make this all idiot proof and make it great for those whom never replace or upgarde a hard drive themselves, etc. For them, this will be a superior experience and just 'work'. For us that after 6 months want a faster larger drive, then we fall outside the Apple norm. I can hope Apple will offer us a solution, but knowing the company they do not like thoser that fit outside their box. And that is the flaw with Apple. They think outside the box and innovate and push the industry to new places. Yet they disallow others to do the thinking outside of their box.

To those that hate FCPX I suggest you actually try it, and work with it for a bit. It is different. It is a 1.0 release. I is missing features. I is NOT ready for critical prduction and it will require some new learning. But it is beter in many ways and it will alloow you to think of your projects differently.

manu chao
Jun 26, 2011, 08:09 AM
Still, I cant help but think back to what this guy did to iMovie. He took a straightforward program that was very logical, and turned it into a toy. Now, some three versions later, iMovie is only now providing some of the control and editing features which it had YEARS AGO before this "visionary genius" changed (ruined) it.

What if iMovie '06 was perfect for 20% of the video editing crowd but not so great for 60% of the video editing crowd. And iMovie '08 was perfect for 50% of the movie editing crowd but not so great for 30%.
With the release of iMovie '08 (and the continued availability of iMovie '06) Apple now had covered 70% instead of 20%. Sounds like a great move.

But naturally those 20% still preferring iMovie '06 felt abandoned, knowing that there would not be any improvements, new features, bug fixes to their preferred solution anymore. And that they might have to wait until iMovie '11 to get what they considered a successor of iMovie '06 (or even longer, maybe they consider now FCP X as their ideal successor to iMovie '06). Thus, in the short term, Apple went from making 20% happy to making 50% happy. Sounds still like a great move, except that in the short term negative public opinion weighs more heavily than positive opinion.

The point being, instead of trying to cater to everybody, ie, producing video editing software in the form of
a) a iMovie '08 based kind of UI (the entrance level)
b) a iMovie '06 based kind of UI (the slightly advanced level)
c) a FCE based kind of UI (the low-budget conventional advanced level)
d) a FCP X based kind of UI (the simplified yet highly advanced level)
e) a FCP7 based kind of UI (the traditional highly advanced level)

Apple decided to condense these five lines into two. There is no denying that all five types of applications had or have a significant following (maybe FCE less so), so whichever two lines they had chosen to follow, they would not have made 100% of the people happy.

So, what should Apple do? Produce five different video editing applications? How is that about confusing people and instilling fear that they might not maintain all five lines forever?

Can therefore somebody please explain me how Apple could have released an iMovie '08 type of application and an FCP X type of application without pissing off a significant proportion of people? It is simply not possible to create something new without demoting something existing, even if you were to issue a guarantee that the existing would be maintained, nobody would believe you because everybody knows that maintaining five lines of video editing software is not a realistic option.

Thus, once you have a significant market share, you only have two options:
1) cater to your constituency and only make slow and small changes, essentially stay stuck in the past (eg, Windows XP which is still going strong in business)
2) annoy your constituency from time to time by throwing old things out and introducing something new.

If you have bought Apple software (and hardware) and did not know, and thus accepted, that Apple leans much more to option (2), you were either not paying attention or thinking that collective willpower is able to change Apple's way.

*LTD*
Jun 26, 2011, 08:11 AM
Uhhh... please?

Just stop it already.

What's up? Did the crystal clear light of reality just make your head explode?

Do it again! I'll film it and then edit it in FCPX in no time!

I'll call it "Green exploding head. Under a bridge."

spooky2k
Jun 26, 2011, 08:15 AM
Digital downloads are a step forward, yes.
Discontinuing DVD sales today is not.

See the point?

Software downloads + DVD sales have been around for a while. The only way to get people to adopt something is to just pull it. Apple did it with the floppy disk and now they're doing it with their software.

If software download is the only way to get an app then, maybe surprisingly to you, you'll be using software download to get it. Thus, forcing people to stop using DVD disks for their software. See the point?

Johnchapin
Jun 26, 2011, 08:17 AM
At this point we'd need someone like Donald Trump sitting at a table and saying: "you're fired!". Who do we fire for such an epic disaster? I wouldn't exclude having to fire Steve Jobs again. After all he pushed for Imovie 08 which nobody wants.

What do you expect from a company that can't do a decent photo editor?:mad:

gorgeousninja
Jun 26, 2011, 08:21 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

I remember all the "oohs and aahs" at the Final Cut Supermeet in April when Apple first unveiled FCPX. I watched that entire video. There were so many new time-saving features. And the people in the audience were going crazy.

What they didn't talk about was... well... all the stuff you can't do anymore.

It's now a complete 180 from the joy people had back in April...

This is a problem I see with Apple's secrecy about upcoming products. There are definitely times when it works perfectly. Leave people wondering and speculating and drive the hype up to near-Religious levels. Generate free buzz and augment your marketing budget by word of mouth.

Tends to work phenomenally with purely consumer products.

They go the same track with their professional products, too, and this is where I see it falter at times. The hype, the buzz, the excitement. It's all still there. Then there's the nervousness of the pro user who wonders if the new product will do what the old one will, as well as if the old product will be avilaable afterwards to aid transition in case it's not.
(Sudden discontinuation of a tried and tested product when it's replacement isn't a guaranteed fit can play merry hell with budget scheduling)

Then there's the big negative. Uncontrolled expectations. Dropping a "surprise, here's a new product that will be the only version aviliable from now on" is not very good on release day. It generate negative buzz.
If this information had been slowly released between April and now, the vitriol would proably be a lot less severe. People would still be disappointed, but there would have been the time to adjust. And, most importantly, the initial upsets would not be right in the middle of the new-product marketing and reviewing cycle.

I've heard one positive on it, from a colleague who got a copy. And even he will be sticking with the old Studio for a bit, owing to missing features.
The rest is nothing but complaints about FCP X on various websites and podcasts. This doesn't necessarily mean it's a rubbish product. But right now there's more negative buzz than positive. It will die down, as the product will improve. But as first impresions go, this one should have been handled better.

Thing is im not sure this is definitely the case. If you remember back to the relentless screams of the so-called 'grip of death' when the iphone 4 was launched. It was unbelievable, these forums were flooded, and half the posts about how Apple had 'failed' so badly came from people who had never even used one. One year on and the exact same phone has gone on to be the worlds best selling phone...
I am not saying that some people don't have genuine concerns, but do not equate bad press necessarily with a bad product..
haters really love to crawl out the woodwork to hate.

winston1236
Jun 26, 2011, 08:21 AM
so his first reaction is to criticize the user and claim they aren't giving it a fair shot. sounds more like an arrogant programer bent on everyone following his idea of what "great" is

AppliedMicro
Jun 26, 2011, 08:22 AM
Software downloads + DVD sales have been around for a while. The only way to get people to adopt something is to just pull it. Apple did it with the floppy disk and now they're doing it with their software.

See the point?
Absolutely. That's actually the point that I tried to make the whole.
(Maybe it's just my lack of proficiency in English...)

Betas (public or closed) would have helped
I'd bet that Apple did some (if limited) external beta testing before releasing 'X.
Screenshots were published before release.

Tell that to the folks with data caps. Cloud computing and the app store seem at odds with ISPs, these days
As I said: If need be, I can get Final Cut, Aperture, Keynote or what not without even getting up from my chair, let alone leaving the house.
So digital downloads are a step forward, yes. At least if offered in addition to existing sales channels. Discontinuing offering DVDs at the same time obviously is not - it's making life harder for some people.

I was an iMovie '06 user. When iMovie '08 was released, I found the interface confusing and nonintuitive. I all but stopped editing movies, after that.
Being a total noob to video editing, I never really couldn't figure out iMovie HD ('06) - or any other video editing app, for that matter - without investing more time and effort than I would have liked. iMovie '08 however was a breeze to learn and get something done quickly. I guess it always depends what you already know and are accustomed to.

Once they have "settled" with a particular application and workflow, many people stubbornly stick with it and are quick to dismiss change and invention - until either their temptation to try something new or their pain to be stuck with something old grows too strong. E.g., when one can do things that weren't accessible before, or when compatibility or interoperability with current solutions breaks. I myself are no different. ;)

This is probably why and where FCP X "fails" for many previous FCP users at the moment: By failing to provide critical - even if niche - existing functionality. And by failing to offer compelling new features to justify an upgrade.

I guess, Final Cut Pro's most compelling feature compared to previous versions is the new and simplified workflow - which right now is offset for many (esp. advanced) users by the vast experience and expertise that they have acquired with previous versions.

guzhogi
Jun 26, 2011, 08:22 AM
Actually, on every project I've ever worked on there has been no molly cuddling. It's always been 'this is how it is. Do it or get out.' In the professional world, there's no time for words that make you feel warm and fuzzy. Step up to the plate, or don't. I'd argue that Apple are being very professional by realising that some people wouldn't like this upgrade but are not going out of their way to wrap us FCP users in cotton wool.

I agree people shouldn't need to be totally babied and coddled, but there should be a certain respect between everyone involved. The people signing the paychecks should at least be given a voice (and listened to) for what they want and need to do the work, as well as what they can provide, but so should the people actually doing the work.

Kinda like how Henry Ford said "If I asked the people what they wanted, they'd say a faster horse." While Henry Ford didn't provide faster horses, he did listen to what people wanted, read between the lines and saw that they wanted faster transportation. I also this one riddle "A guy goes into a hardware store and asks for a drill bit. What does he want?" Many people might say "A drill bit." The right answer is a hole. While the people doing the actual work might not say exactly what they need, but, IMO, it's the responsibility of the powers that be to give what the other people need.

Wow. Just wow. You people are nuts. As an editing professional myself, I have been digging into FCPX over the last few days. While it still needs some work, it's going to increase my productivity 10 fold. Background rendering is fast and organizing clips is a breeze.

The old version of FCP has a very steep learning curve. It's complicated and takes almost a doctorate to master. It's very easy to get frustrated. FCPX is MUCH easier to understand. Anyone, pro or not can jump into this program and put out some pretty darn good videos. It seems that many professionals have a stick up their rear and think that a program must be expensive and complicated in order to be a "professional" product. Are you guys so threatened that some teenager is going to swoop in and make you look bad?

Come on people. Times are changing. Get with the program. I have been doing video editing for 25 years and FCPX has made it fun again. I think you guys are looking at this all wrong.

I'm very happy you find this easier and better to use. As I said before, I have no problem with change if it's needed. But seeing all the complaints about missing features, kinda wish FCPX had them.

*LTD*
Jun 26, 2011, 08:26 AM
What do you expect from a company that can't do a decent photo editor?:mad:

To promote stuff like Pixelmator, as they should.

guzhogi
Jun 26, 2011, 08:31 AM
Doesn't it suck when the company that made the best enterprise solutions realize that there's more money in consumer solutions?

Just thought of something: there's probably a whole lot more money in developing for Windows since Windows has, what, 90% marketshare and Macs have 6%? Why doesn't Apple just fold up shop in their Mac devision & just sell Windows PCs and the iOS stuff? </sarcasm>

iphonepiephone
Jun 26, 2011, 08:31 AM
This thread seems to be going around and around in circles, just like all the *other* FUD-fest, FCPX threads on MR. How about all the whiners get OFF the forum, and get on with learning FCPX? Too difficult for you? Ironic.

A new tack, anyone? :rolleyes:

Digitalclips
Jun 26, 2011, 08:33 AM
I've used Final Cut since its first iteration and made many national TV shows and now I've used the FCPX I must agree it is a perfectly nice prosumer product. However, it's not an upgrade to 7 as it stands. I really wish Apple had re written FCP 7 as a 64 bit native app even if they changed nothing else. As it stands it is far better suited to the professional's needs. No production house is going to switch to the current version IMHO, it's just too big of a change in approach.

I do suspect many may well start using it on the side 'as well' for small projects and await to see what comes along in improvements and get used to it. But for now any serious production work will remain in 7. So my suggestion is ... Just make sure you don't over write 7 with the new version, keep 7 what ever you do!

iphonepiephone
Jun 26, 2011, 08:35 AM
Lynda.com are rubbing their hands together with glee, because all the luddite "professional" editors will need teaching, whereas those of us who are used to the "why would it be ANY other way" (to quote Jonathan Ive) approach, can see that the whole point to this interface is *minimal* learning, and maximum productivity.

Oletros
Jun 26, 2011, 08:35 AM
Wow. Just wow. You people are nuts. As an editing professional myself, I have been digging into FCPX over the last few days. While it still needs some work, it's going to increase my productivity 10 fold. Background rendering is fast and organizing clips is a breeze.

The old version of FCP has a very steep learning curve. It's complicated and takes almost a doctorate to master. It's very easy to get frustrated. FCPX is MUCH easier to understand. Anyone, pro or not can jump into this program and put out some pretty darn good videos. It seems that many professionals have a stick up their rear and think that a program must be expensive and complicated in order to be a "professional" product. Are you guys so threatened that some teenager is going to swoop in and make you look bad?

Come on people. Times are changing. Get with the program. I have been doing video editing for 25 years and FCPX has made it fun again. I think you guys are looking at this all wrong.

Why are a professional threatened when a feature he need doesn't exist in the new version of a program?

Perhaps he likes the new version but if there is no X, Y or Z, fundamental to him and that they were in the former version, whey can't he blame?

itsokay
Jun 26, 2011, 08:36 AM
Just thought of something: there's probably a whole lot more money in developing for Windows since Windows has, what, 90% marketshare and Macs have 6%? Why doesn't Apple just fold up shop in their Mac devision & just sell Windows PCs and the iOS stuff?

practice what you preach: let go of your mac and be part of the microsoft kids.

Oletros
Jun 26, 2011, 08:37 AM
This thread seems to be going around and around in circles, just like all the *other* FUD-fest, FCPX threads on MR. How about all the whiners get OFF the forum, and get on with learning FCPX? Too difficult for you? Ironic.

A new tack, anyone? :rolleyes:

Really? Are they whinning because it is too difficult?

itsokay
Jun 26, 2011, 08:43 AM
Really? Are they whinning because it is too difficult?

because it lacks some of the features of the former FCP and it is a paradigm shift.

smali
Jun 26, 2011, 08:43 AM
Is the truth of the matter that we feel threatened? The skills and long-winded techniques that we have grown to use over many years, are now consolidated into a couple of mouse clicks - something simple, that even the novice can achieve? Is it that this incredible software has the potential to turn many, MANY more of those who were put off older versions of FCP due to the scaryness and complex interface, into people who can finally realise their creative visions, and turn that into something visible? Do you feel undermined, and less "professional" because the unemployed girl in the flat next door, living on £65 a week, now has the potential and the toolset to produce something that, in time, could rival your work, albeit with less investment in those "skills" you had to sweat over for weeks, because Apple have purged the clunky UI and inefficiency out of the product, so that it makes more sense? It may not make more sense if you are used to doing things the silly, long-winded way, but the end product will look the same, so why not?


We all have potential, and Apple help us realise it, so give FCPX the chance *we all* deserve.

Great Post.

The same thing happened in the photography world where "pros" would keep information to themselves rather than invest in the next generation of photographers who would eventually replace them as they retire anyway.

With the advent of dslr and eventual low cost of entry, freely available info on the net, anyone could learn to become a photographer. But to be successful still required you to have creative skill, passion etc etc...just the ease of access to those interested has been greatly improved.

Just go to any Photography forums business sections and read the "pros" bitch and moan about "amateurs" ruining the industry.


Same thing is happening here, demystification of the filmmaking process. Of course I'm not saying people are going to be editing Hollywood films in their bedroom but it gives people a fair chance of producing something that will maybe get them somewhere one day without the high cost of entry (time and money).

*LTD*
Jun 26, 2011, 08:43 AM
Really? Are they whinning because it is too difficult?

I suspect it's a situation where Apple has made the product better and easier to use, but the "Pros" are accustomed to the previous, more complicated way.

As an aside, are these people really "Pros"? Does it take that much specialized knowledge to learn a friggin video-editing program? It seems the "Pro" moniker at this point in the game is just a whole lotta bull-**** used in order to pad otherwise vapid IT/"professional creatives" resumes.

manu chao
Jun 26, 2011, 08:43 AM
Apple should still make this available.
You mean like MS selling XP, almost five years after its successor was released? Don't get me wrong, I think Apple should declare that FCP7 will run fine under Lion and it should make FCP7 available to those who purchase FCP X, for a limited time. But how to avoid an XP-type scenario? Apple prefers to make a painful cut now (by making it plainly obvious that the days of FCP7 are numbered). The faster people adopt FCP X, the faster the complaints about that are based on not being familiar with it will subside.

I also disagree with the whole App Store force feed.
And I'd say 80% of all the applications I have (and that you have) were already download-only applications. Whether you download them from a website or an integrated store does not change things that much. For me, only Adobe stuff, Nikon, Aperture, Igor, and DiskWarrior were applications installed from an optical disk.

I think the heart of your unease about the app store is the effort those with truly slow connections have to go through to (re)download the application (which is true for those people, the pointing being again, piss off a small proportion of people in order to make a larger proportion of people happier, as Apple thinks those with faster connections will profit from a download even if they don't realise it yet, ie, no longer having store physical media, no longer needing that optical drive around).
And probably that unease that the risk of app store authentication or availability problems is higher than the risk of misplacing (or damaging) the physical media.

dethmaShine
Jun 26, 2011, 08:50 AM
What's up? Did the crystal clear light of reality just make your head explode?

Do it again! I'll film it and then edit it in FCPX in no time!

I'll call it "Green exploding head. Under a bridge."

That's a stupid explanation of what you're were trying to explain in your previous comment.

'Will this work on my iPad? Now I can teach grandma to edit and she'll actually understand.'

Seriously? This is supposed to be a pro-software. You're right that it is not supposed to be difficult to use just because it is pro but undermining the concept behind such a release is non-sensical and vague. If you need to use some thing very basic so that even your grandma can use it, you have iMovie to do so. This professional grade software is not meant for consumers or even pro-sumers. But mainly for professionals.

I am not saying that this is a bad or a good release but stating that every one can use this software is non-sensical and absolutely not the point. If it were so, then Apple had been selling it as iMovie Pro for $99.

Keebler
Jun 26, 2011, 08:53 AM
I am sick of the stupid kids who has no idea of video editing posting their useless garbage in here.

Final Cut Pro X IS GARBAGE!!!!

I work in a TV station, we had no less than 900 projects in FCP 7 and is just no tolerable not having FCP X not reading those projects 100%. We are not exporting in any other stinky format, WE JUST CAN NOT! WE HAVE NO TIME!

Compressor 3 was mediocre enough, Final Cut Server was a complete lie already.

By the end of the year we are going to switch the entire platform to Adobe Premiere and that is going to cost our shareholders some good money and time and training but better safe than depending on a CEO of a crazy software company with cancer in his brain creating software for Barbie.

There are not excuses, we have been left alone on the wild with FCP X. It is a lame joke that has no excuses.

It is just like changing every single gas station to hydrogen overnight. What do I do with my car now? you ask, well we are not supporting it anymore.

I mean, the bunch of kids doesn't get it.

If I had a gun with one bullet and had Fidel Castro in front of me or Randi Ubillos... wow... I would be pointing back and forth.

Steve Balmer must be shocked and laughing at this and you bet FCP X will end up in the Guinness Book of Records as the biggest software flaw ever!

I love the first line calling kids stupid, but grammatically.....like a kid.

so you don't like it. don't switch over. does your station suddenly require a NEW solution? Is the current version of FCS NOT working for you? Have you stopped working b/c it's not doing the job for you?

btw, I fully acknowledge they've hurt some of the key collaborative workflow features. I can certainly also understand the huge letdown, but what kills me is ppl like you, whose companies have invested huge dollars with Apple's editing products (hardware and software), just bitching like little babies about switching. If you're that invested in time, energy and shareholder dollars, don't you think a bit of time to hear and see what Apple's response to their lack of missing key features is warranted? I would think, cost wise, it's better to wait and see what they have to say instead of buying new software and training staff.

Or, are you that willing to take your bat and ball and go home?

I'm interested to see their response.

spooky2k
Jun 26, 2011, 08:53 AM
I agree people shouldn't need to be totally babied and coddled, but there should be a certain respect between everyone involved. The people signing the paychecks should at least be given a voice (and listened to) for what they want and need to do the work, as well as what they can provide, but so should the people actually doing the work.

Kinda like how Henry Ford said "If I asked the people what they wanted, they'd say a faster horse." While Henry Ford didn't provide faster horses, he did listen to what people wanted, read between the lines and saw that they wanted faster transportation. I also this one riddle "A guy goes into a hardware store and asks for a drill bit. What does he want?" Many people might say "A drill bit." The right answer is a hole. While the people doing the actual work might not say exactly what they need, but, IMO, it's the responsibility of the powers that be to give what the other people need.


That's fair enough but I think that is exactly what's happening here. We're being given a different drill bit. Apple are banking on the basics of this software being compelling and great. And they are. What isn't great is the missing few features. The software works extremely well as an editing app. It blows the others out of the water. Now that's done, they can get to the nitty gritty of things like multicam, XML, OMF etc.

This is version 1 of a new piece of software, not an upgrade. I said this in another thread and I'll say it again, anyone who thought this'd be ready to jump to on day 1 is nuts. Give it a year and this'll be the best thing since sliced bread.

itsokay
Jun 26, 2011, 08:59 AM
I suspect it's a situation where Apple has made the product better and easier to use, but the "Pros" are accustomed to the previous, more complicated way.

As an aside, are these people really "Pros"? Does it take that much specialized knowledge to learn a friggin video-editing program? It seems the "Pro" moniker at this point in the game is just a whole lotta bull-**** used in order to pad otherwise vapid IT/"professional creatives" resumes.

they seem to have forgotten that the montage is merely a means to share stories. its all about love, people.

i give you all a big hug. :apple:

guzhogi
Jun 26, 2011, 09:00 AM
The same thing happened in the photography world where "pros" would keep information to themselves rather than invest in the next generation of photographers who would eventually replace them as they retire anyway.

With the advent of dslr and eventual low cost of entry, freely available info on the net, anyone could learn to become a photographer. But to be successful still required you to have creative skill, passion etc etc...just the ease of access to those interested has been greatly improved.

Just go to any Photography forums business sections and read the "pros" bitch and moan about "amateurs" ruining the industry.

Same thing is happening here, demystification of the filmmaking process. Of course I'm not saying people are going to be editing Hollywood films in their bedroom but it gives people a fair chance of producing something that will maybe get them somewhere one day without the high cost of entry (time and money).

I suspect it's a situation where Apple has made the product better and easier to use, but the "Pros" are accustomed to the previous, more complicated way.

As an aside, are these people really "Pros"? Does it take that much specialized knowledge to learn a friggin video-editing program? It seems the "Pro" moniker at this point in the game is just a whole lotta bull-**** used in order to pad otherwise vapid IT/"professional creatives" resumes.

IMO, there's nothing wrong for making things easier to use. If you get the same quality product for less effort, all the better. That just means you'll get the same quality product with less time, effort and money, or a higher quality product with the same amount of resources.

I think some of the people here are complaining about the loss of features, like multi cam support. I'll admit, I'm no pro film editor, but the loss of features would make me feel bad too. I think features and a person's skills go hand in hand. Without skills, people could press the buttons, but not push the envelope and create great new ideas. However, without features, you can't use your skills.


I give you all a big hug. :apple:

I give you a big hug back! I love hugs. Hopefully you're a cute, single girl. :p

Sirmausalot
Jun 26, 2011, 09:02 AM
I switched from Avid to FCP because Avid did not support P2 media.

I cannot use Final Cut Pro 7 because it does not natively support DSLR video and never will. It also only uses one core, is stuck at less than 3.5GB of RAM. Please, please do not offer that as a solution as it simply isn't one.

I was waiting to switch to Final Cut Pro X. I was excited about learning a new interface and experimenting with what were promised to be powerful new tools and ways of thinking about the timeline. What I got was this:

An app that won't let me export an OMF. If you don't know what that is, you honestly shouldn't be offering us advice. But it's an essential tool for any filmmaker.

X doesn't support DVD authoring. DVD Studio Pro was EOL. And as much as I sell from Digital Downloads, I still sell DVDs and need a solid compression program and DVD authoring program.

So Final Cut Pro 7 does not support my current needs, neither does Final Cut Pro X. I MUST switch to continue my work and many others do as well.

Final note, if you've read this far: Final Cut STUDIO was $999 and included Soundtrack Pro, DVD Studio Pro, Final Cut 7, Compressor, Color etc. So the new price only includes the editing program is NOT that great a deal, especially since it doesn't integrate with other tools we need.

Lesser Evets
Jun 26, 2011, 09:07 AM
Just thought of something: there's probably a whole lot more money in developing for Windows since Windows has, what, 90% marketshare and Macs have 6%? Why doesn't Apple just fold up shop in their Mac devision & just sell Windows PCs and the iOS stuff? </sarcasm>

You actually make a good point, though might not realize it. The PC era is now slipping away, and Apple might possibly shut down the entire Mac line in 10 years. The portables/iOS devices are much more lucrative and are the future of the mass market.

It is speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the Macs wither on the vine by 2020. However, Apple would merely be transplanting the large computers with more-able portables as tech and engineering makes such devices into powerful PCs needing no tethering to a full-functioned Mac.

If you think about it, the speed/function gap between an iPad and an iMac is maybe 6 years at this moment. Once it gets down under 3, and off-pad storage is heartily available, the iMac will go towards obsolescence. OSX might well be the last Mac OS. iPad and iPhone have changed the market and will continue to do so from here onward.

FCPX begins to point strongly to Apple losing grip with professionals. Their eyes are concerned with the larger markets, now: not the Windows market, but one they are creating new and ruling with the iOS gadgets.

manu chao
Jun 26, 2011, 09:07 AM
I really wish Apple had re written FCP 7 as a 64 bit native app even if they changed nothing else.
As I said in an earlier post (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12831825&postcount=123):
Once you have a significant market share, you only have two options:
1) cater to your constituency and only make slow and small changes, essentially stay stuck in the past (eg, Windows XP which is still going strong in business)
2) annoy your constituency from time to time by throwing old things out and introducing something new.

If Henry Ford would have had a nation-wide business of horse sales, horse 'service' stations, etc., he could have kept this business going as it was and just add the car business, or he could have said, shut down the horse business, cars are the future.

It feels like Apple was selling an implicit promise with each copy of FCP that for the next five (or ten) years we will continue to make changes and improvements to this application without breaking any backwards compatibility nor changing the workflow in anything but minor ways. And what people now complain about is that Apple broke that promise. Except that Apple never made such a promise. Nor does Adobe for Premiere (in fact they discontinued Premiere for the Mac with fairly short notice).

NAG
Jun 26, 2011, 09:07 AM
I think the bit about iMovie being First Cut would have been the better move. Because there isn't really an iLife suite anymore (iTunes has always been separate and iWeb and iDVD are dead, which leaves iPhoto and iMovie) If they would have called it First Cut the argument that Final Cut Pro X is "iMovie Pro" would be cut off at the knees. There are a lot of people making comments on both sides that are completely uninformed (as usual).

The only thing I think Apple did massively wrong was discontinue Final Cut Studio. They should have kept it going for a while like OS 9. OS X is a great OS but it wasn't ready for prime time at launch. Granted, OS X was probably in worse shape than Final Cut Pro X (because an OS is more complicated). Still, a transition period would probably change little from Apple's point of view and give all the people who need the old features a sense of security.

It really feels like the irrational behaviors come from simple motivations, Apple wants a clean break from the past and the Final Cut Pro users want to use products currently sold by Apple (I'm kind of shocked how many people bought it day one and then complained they couldn't instantly integrate it into their work flow...that is just reckless behavior when buying an application that is your livelihood).

TechKnow
Jun 26, 2011, 09:17 AM
Wow. Ok six pages later, I think I will attempt to enter this thread.

There is a lot of discussion of "Pro" vs what I will call "casual" user. I think it is less of an issue of "pro" vs "casual", and more of an issue of workflow and environment.

I am a single editor of a weekly 30 minute show. ( And I do weddings ;) ) so I can switch to whatever editing software I choose with little complications. But I have a vendor that I work with for the closed captioning, they have editors, graphics persons, camera operators, audio technicians and directors that have a need for all of these parts to flow from one system to another. This is a workflow that a lot of production houses have. Switching one part of the system radically will impact the entire work flow, which for them equals time and money. (They like to have money to eat and buy Apple products too)

Avid went through a similar issue recently with their upgrade of Media Composer. And previously when they discontinued Avid Xpress, so it is not unique to the industry. The difference is Avid gave a date in the future when it would stop supporting the discontinued version.

While it is true that a "pro" can use and expand with new tools, usually in a "Pro" workflow, they are one part of a whole of specialist who contribute to the final product.

The following is the opinion of one man, however you want to label me: I believe since Apple has been aggressively marketing to the production and finish houses that works in team and specialist environment, that the only flaw in the current action is lack of continuing support until a predetermined time to allow these users the time to plan their upgrade or to wait until features that are part of thier workflow, external monitoring for color correction, are implemented in FCPX.

iphonepiephone
Jun 26, 2011, 09:35 AM
Wow. Ok six pages later, I think I will attempt to enter this thread.

There is a lot of discussion of "Pro" vs what I will call "casual" user. I think it is less of an issue of "pro" vs "casual", and more of an issue of workflow and environment.

I am a single editor of a weekly 30 minute show. ( And I do weddings ;) ) so I can switch to whatever editing software I choose with little complications. But I have a vendor that I work with for the closed captioning, they have editors, graphics persons, camera operators, audio technicians and directors that have a need for all of these parts to flow from one system to another. This is a workflow that a lot of production houses have. Switching one part of the system radically will impact the entire work flow, which for them equals time and money. (They like to have money to eat and buy Apple products too)

Avid went through a similar issue recently with their upgrade of Media Composer. And previously when they discontinued Avid Xpress, so it is not unique to the industry. The difference is Avid gave a date in the future when it would stop supporting the discontinued version.

While it is true that a "pro" can use and expand with new tools, usually in a "Pro" workflow, they are one part of a whole of specialist who contribute to the final product.

The following is the opinion of one man, however you want to label me: I believe since Apple has been aggressively marketing to the production and finish houses that works in team and specialist environment, that the only flaw in the current action is lack of continuing support until a predetermined time to allow these users the time to plan their upgrade or to wait until features that are part of thier workflow, external monitoring for color correction, are implemented in FCPX.


I don't get your point; those using FCP 7 and lesser, already have it, and can continue to use it. I don't recall anyone being forced to use FCP X, do you?

Just be grateful you're not using Ubuntu, and "KdenLive" :D

guzhogi
Jun 26, 2011, 09:40 AM
You actually make a good point, though might not realize it. The PC era is now slipping away, and Apple might possibly shut down the entire Mac line in 10 years. The portables/iOS devices are much more lucrative and are the future of the mass market.

It is speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the Macs wither on the vine by 2020. However, Apple would merely be transplanting the large computers with more-able portables as tech and engineering makes such devices into powerful PCs needing no tethering to a full-functioned Mac.

If you think about it, the speed/function gap between an iPad and an iMac is maybe 6 years at this moment. Once it gets down under 3, and off-pad storage is heartily available, the iMac will go towards obsolescence. OSX might well be the last Mac OS. iPad and iPhone have changed the market and will continue to do so from here onward.

FCPX begins to point strongly to Apple losing grip with professionals. Their eyes are concerned with the larger markets, now: not the Windows market, but one they are creating new and ruling with the iOS gadgets.

I can definitely see the computer world going to portable computing devices (laptops, tablets & smart phones) in the next 10-15 years and then transitioning to something totally different we can't even imagine yet. However, I think that's mainly for the basic consumer, everyday guy stuff. I don't think the need for big workstations, supercomputers & data centers will ever go away. It might look totally different in 20 years, but the need for powerful computers will always exist, from what I've seen.

As I said in an earlier post (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12831825&postcount=123):
Once you have a significant market share, you only have two options:
1) cater to your constituency and only make slow and small changes, essentially stay stuck in the past (eg, Windows XP which is still going strong in business)
2) annoy your constituency from time to time by throwing old things out and introducing something new.

If Henry Ford would have had a nation-wide business of horse sales, horse 'service' stations, etc., he could have kept this business going as it was and just add the car business, or he could have said, shut down the horse business, cars are the future.

It feels like Apple was selling an implicit promise with each copy of FCP that for the next five (or ten) years we will continue to make changes and improvements to this application without breaking any backwards compatibility nor changing the workflow in anything but minor ways. And what people now complain about is that Apple broke that promise. Except that Apple never made such a promise. Nor does Adobe for Premiere (in fact they discontinued Premiere for the Mac with fairly short notice).

You have a good point, although I don't think big, abrupt changes are the best. I think we need a transition period between your number 1 & 2. I think that having big changes is important in order to move forward, but have a transition period just so people can get used to it and get everything else to work with it.

d4rkc4sm
Jun 26, 2011, 09:40 AM
i ****ing love fcp x. it's awesome.

autrefois
Jun 26, 2011, 09:48 AM
At this point we'd need someone like Donald Trump sitting at a table and saying: "you're fired!". Who do we fire for such an epic disaster? I wouldn't exclude having to fire Steve Jobs again. After all he pushed for Imovie 08 which nobody wants.

Steve may be the one doing the firing, and it will go something like this (http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/jobs_to_2008_mobileme_team_why_the_doesnt_it_do_that/)...

“Can anyone tell me what Final Cut Pro X is supposed to do? So why the ******* doesn’t it do that?”

manu chao
Jun 26, 2011, 09:51 AM
You have a good point, although I don't think big, abrupt changes are the best. I think we need a transition period between your number 1 & 2. I think that having big changes is important in order to move forward, but have a transition period just so people can get used to it and get everything else to work with it.
I think after a transition period Apple will offer FCP 7 together with FCP X via some jumping through hoops (or facilitate the release of existing boxed copies into the used market). They just don't announce it right away to force enough people to seriously consider the switch to FCP X...
(I know this is cruel treatment but sometimes Apple likes to mess with our minds.)

lesreaper2009
Jun 26, 2011, 09:54 AM
I am sick of the stupid kids who has no idea of video editing posting their useless garbage in here.

Final Cut Pro X IS GARBAGE!!!!

I work in a TV station, we had no less than 900 projects in FCP 7 and is just no tolerable not having FCP X not reading those projects 100%. We are not exporting in any other stinky format, WE JUST CAN NOT! WE HAVE NO TIME!

Compressor 3 was mediocre enough, Final Cut Server was a complete lie already.

By the end of the year we are going to switch the entire platform to Adobe Premiere and that is going to cost our shareholders some good money and time and training but better safe than depending on a CEO of a crazy software company with cancer in his brain creating software for Barbie.



Welcome to the land of Adobe Premiere! People thought I was crazy for switching when FCS3 came out, but I'm pretty happy and haven't looked back. There are still a few challenges I deal with, but WAY less than FCP. Enjoy!

Dranix
Jun 26, 2011, 10:03 AM
What do you expect from a company that can't do a decent photo editor?:mad:

Hmm? Where is Aperture not decent? It’s a great program...

dagamer34
Jun 26, 2011, 10:03 AM
A similar analogy would be Microsoft immediately cutting sales and support for Windows XP when Windows Vista came out, and the public didn't get what was thought to be a "decent" OS until Windows 7 three years later.

The problem isn't with Final Cut, it's Apple's culture of secrecy. Not having roadmaps scares people that needs to plan months/years in advance. Not properly communicating your message to the community is what leads to "sudden surprises". Not respecting users by assuming you know what is best for everyone is kinda arrogant.

Here's a list of similar situations where Apple's secrecy was to their disadvantage:
1) "Antennagate"
2) iOS "location tracking" - heck, they had congressional meetings on that one
3) Lodsys patent trolling

I don't think anyone disagrees that in the future FCPX has the potential to be a good NLE in the future. The only problem is because Apple has yet to make a single official statement, it could be 6 months or 6 years before we get to that point. And for professionals, that uncertainty is really what bothers them the most.

daverso
Jun 26, 2011, 10:04 AM
I really don't understand the whining. It is a completely rewritten software. Things were never gonna be complete at version 1.0. Yet people act like armageddon has come. If it is that big an issue for you Adobe and Avid will be happily waiting for you.

It may be new software, but it still carries the Final Cut name.

I LOVE Apple, but this is sadly somewhat consistent with some of their recent moves... "You don't like it? You're just not doing it right."

I have faith that they will make some important small changes to make it better, but I have no faith that FCP will be an industry standard without some extreme changes.

hamean
Jun 26, 2011, 10:04 AM
Prediction: These FCP X threads will read like this (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=501) in a couple years.

Good find. I see both sides on this issue. I am concerned about Apples Pro line. They've been pumping new products out left and right the last few years, and I think their development teams are stretched a little thin. They need to pump more power into development of pro software no doubt.

It remains to be seen whether they notice this anti-pro trend and dedicate the energy to pro stuff necessary like they have done for the consumer devices recently.

d4rkc4sm
Jun 26, 2011, 10:06 AM
apple is on the right track with fcpx. its an amazing app. i love it

Lone Deranger
Jun 26, 2011, 10:10 AM
Good find. I see both sides on this issue. I am concerned about Apples Pro line. They've been pumping new products out left and right the last few years, and I think their development teams are stretched a little thin. They need to pump more power into development of pro software no doubt.

It remains to be seen whether they notice this anti-pro trend and dedicate the energy to pro stuff necessary like they have done for the consumer devices recently.

Agreed. What worries me is that when they do realize that the Pro market might be slipping away from them, they'll abandon it rather than fight for it as they feel their consumer products are 'skating' them where the puck is going.

Oletros
Jun 26, 2011, 10:13 AM
I don't recall anyone being forced to use FCP X, do you?

Anyone who needs a new license of FCP 7?

bigjohn
Jun 26, 2011, 10:13 AM
I work in a TV station, we had no less than 900 projects in FCP 7 and is just no tolerable not having FCP X not reading those projects 100%. We are not exporting in any other stinky format, WE JUST CAN NOT! WE HAVE NO TIME!


How often do you go back and work on those projects again and again? In our TV operation, we're not going back and reworking old material over and over once it's aired. No one is saying you have to transition to the new software when the old version works well.

I'll ignore your other comments about who to shoot and whatnot. You apparently need a valium or something.

tmroper
Jun 26, 2011, 10:20 AM
"Ubillos returned from vacation..." and got a bright idea about how to edit footage from it easier? Oh boy, I'm sure that fact alone about the history of what's now FCPX would make the editors who are upset with it even more upset. It's just so glib to start with. And vacation footage is a whole lot different than take after take over days and days (or months) of shooting a feature.

So I can understand why professionals with a lot invested in the FCS workflow are very upset. But I'm looking foward to giving FCPX a try, and to the unfolding drama surrounding it (in screenwriting terms, the abrupt switch is called the "inciting incident").

TechKnow
Jun 26, 2011, 10:31 AM
I don't get your point; those using FCP 7 and lesser, already have it, and can continue to use it. I don't recall anyone being forced to use FCP X, do you?

Just be grateful you're not using Ubuntu, and "KdenLive" :D

The issue is not being fixed to use FCPX, it is an issue of support. If I am happy with FCP7, but need to add another station for a project I cannot buy another seat from Apple. Or if another application on the edit system needs an update that "breaks" FCP7, I have no support from Apple.

Again as a single user user, I could find a lot of ways to work around these limitations, but with multiple systems and a production workflow, the problem multiplies and compounds.

Just continued support for a set amount of time could eleviate the problem even if were 6-12 months it would allow for time to budget and prepare.

Bialykot
Jun 26, 2011, 10:32 AM
I can understand both points of view around FCPx and can see professionals being a little worried. However draw some parallels from the audio recording industry. Several years ago you had to spend 1000s to record a CD. Hire charges for studios, expensive equipment and software, you needed 'professionals' to do all this for you. Wind on to today, and yes of course there are large studios turning out Grammy award music, BUT the small studio business model is almost dead. Creative bands are turning out their own recordings using GarageBand and similar in their bedrooms. And they're getting into the charts. Professional, prosumer and casual are all merging. Video editing is following this trend. Apple is recognising this and it will happen because it has to.

bigjohn
Jun 26, 2011, 10:35 AM
I for one can't wait until all of these so-called "pros" stop their griping and get out of the way. Move to PP or Avid and leave the next generation to determine the path. All of the pros I know either adapt to new technology or they find other things to do with their lives. I'm pretty sure that when the EVS came out, all the tape guys thought it was the end of the world, now we're dependent on a tapeless system - is it perfect, no, but it's a helluva lot better than lugging around reels or betas and editing tape to tape.

Things will get better, if they're not getting better fast enough for you, then by all means abandon ship. FCPX works for me*, so I think I'll stick around and see what happens next.

*I don't cut features or rely on an extensive post house. Cut highlights, sprinkle on some AE or Motion, get them on TV, no looking back - on to the next game.

jjhny
Jun 26, 2011, 10:43 AM
I really don't understand the whining. It is a completely rewritten software. Things were never gonna be complete at version 1.0. Yet people act like armageddon has come. If it is that big an issue for you Adobe and Avid will be happily waiting for you.

The reason you don't understand is that your living doesn't depend on it. There are people who have to deliver certain things, like tape for example. Television networks demand tape delivery - they don't care that it's archaic, and Apple saying we have decided for you doesn't cut it. The TV networks will laugh at us if we say Apple said tape doesn't matter.

Also, production houses who went to FCP have archives of many older projects that often need to be opened up and worked with. Edited segments can be pulled etc. Apple's answer is well you are SOL - do you know how long and tedious it would be to redo all the cuts and layers, redo all the sound editing - it would be like Quark or inDesign saying, all those long layouts and templates you use - sorry, you have to recreate them all.

Speaking of archives, all archives are kept on tape - now we can't access them! Years of stock footage is now gone! Thanks Randy!

There are many other things we have to have - post production is a complicated business. Unless you do it, you really can't understand it, the complications are incredible. FCPX didn't make it easier, the app just chose to ignore it's there.

I won't even go into the smaller screen real estate (i.e. can't put bin windows on a separate screen so your timeline has more room - oh, I forgot, we don't have bins anymore, just some insane meta data organization like spotlight!)

For more insight go here (if you want to get technical about it), you'll at least see what the bitching is all about:

http://www.richardharringtonblog.com/files/fcpx_response.php

skellener
Jun 26, 2011, 10:51 AM
I don't necessarily think the problem is with the new tools. It's more the lack of the "professional" tools. This is really just Final Cut Express X. It's one thing if the editors were soley complaining about the new features. That is not the case. There are those, but there is much more to it. Apple has completely removed all the "Pro" features from Final Cut PRO!!!!! What did they expect people would say? You can't call it a Pro app and take out a professionals' life blood from a product and not expect a backlash. Imagine a new version of Photoshop was released and could not read PSDs?? A new interface is one thing. This?....this is NOT a Pro app. Apple really screwed the pooch here.

fred1
Jun 26, 2011, 10:52 AM
I think I see what the problem is here. In the article, Randy Ubillos "returned from vacation and found that final cut wasn't ideal for organizing raw footage". He didn't know this before he left? I my mind he wanted/needed something that would be better suited to the at home casual user, not a professional. And this line of thinking has been standard operating procedure at Apple since I-movie 06.

The complains I have with FCPX come at it from an educational perspective. How can I use this in a school environment? The basic problem as I see it is that this program is designed for a single user on a single machine. I have been playing with FCPX for days now, and I can't find a simple way around this. The files are all over the place. for example, imported files go to the movie folder by default. It can be changed to an external hard drive but the support files are in FCPX. That means that the kids won't be able to take the project home to work on.
I know I can change the defaults… but some of our kids will be doing everything in the lab. I'm going to be hearing a lot of complaints about lost data and non backed up projects. That's just for starters, and is specific to our needs with this program.

I think FCPX is just the first shoe dropping. What happens when Lion comes out? FCPX is designed to be used with Lion, and perhaps things will improve when it's up and running, but where does that leave the school districts? Now we have to buy both programs, all the add on apps. (compressor and others) and all the upgrades? The main concern is that Lion and FCPX seem to be a package deal.
And Lion will be very problematic for us because it will come without Rossetta. A lot the families in our district can't afford to upgrade everything as it comes out, so the divide between school and home computer use will become extreme.

The second issue for Apple is that , from the kids perspective, FCPX has overnight become "un-cool". It doesn't matter that to them that things will be fixed down the road. They want to learn the program that ( … ) used to produce (…) and in only four days, not the one that Aunt (…) used to get that video on to You Tube.
I'm not sure how Apple will get around this one, but having the famous filmmaker (…) come out and say he's going to use FCPX to do his next film will only be met with laughter.

A suggestion for the Apple team? Why don't you make FC7 fully supported in Lion, and sell both FCPX and and hopefully a new FC8. That way you will be selling to both the pros and the casual user. And in some cases you will be selling both programs to single user. A lot of our kids went from Express to Pro as they found they needed better tools.

The bottom line. I'm suggesting we don't get FCPX, or Lion in our district until this works itself out. Way to many chances for the kids and their families to come out on the short end. Both programs have gone from "must haves" to maybe later in our schools.

An addendum. I am reminded a quote from Carl Sagan in his book Dragons of Eden when I read that "… they laughed I-movie 08, they complained about Final Cut 1…" and other arguments like this in these posts. Dr. Sagan's observation about using this as an argument was ... "so what they laughed at Bozo the Clown too"

bigjohn
Jun 26, 2011, 11:06 AM
Television networks demand tape delivery

Speaking of archives, all archives are kept on tape - now we can't access them! Years of stock footage is now gone! Thanks Randy!


Run everything through a KiPro - that solves your tape problem.

Dagless
Jun 26, 2011, 11:10 AM
The real tragedy here is if Apple thinks all the anger over FCP X is just about that particular software, and not the growing fear over the last few years that pro apps and gear are a fading priority for Apple. For instance:

* It took almost 2.5 years to go from Final Cut Studio 2 to Final Cut Studio 3, and Final Cut Studio 3 was just a moderate update. Then it took almost another 2 full years to introduce Final Cut Pro X, which removed tons of features!

* Apple bought Shake, and then cancelled it. Cancelled it! Apple said there would be a next-generation app coming in Shake's place, but that never showed up.

* Apple started letting Logic atrophy.

* Apple "phoned-in" the last few Mac Pro updates, just slapping in some new Intel chips, but not adding value such as 1) more expansion slots (three slots is not a lot for a workstation), and 2) never bothering to include an eSATA port, even though tons of media professionals started using eSATA, 3) never bothering to include a USB3 port, etc. etc. Many people are wondering if the new Thunderbolt port will be Apple's excuse to give up on the Mac Pro altogether.

* Apple stopped updating its "Pro" page almost two years ago, here: http://www.apple.com/pro/

* Apple stopped attending NAB, and other standard industry events.

* Multiple rumors that Apple was trying to sell its Pro Apps division....


People have spent a lot of time and money building their businesses and careers around FCP. But since the iPhone launched, FCP and other pro apps and gear have gotten noticeably less attention.

That makes a lot of people nervous, and left to wonder what Apple's intentions are. You really can't help but wonder because Apple is so ridiculously silent about its intentions, which works fine on the consumer side but not when people are investing tens of thousands of dollars in apps and gear around Apple.

Combine that with Apple shipping a new version of Final Cut that is so radically different and so underpowered, and also discontinuing sales for FCS 3 suites and FCP Server (with no explanation about Server's demise or any intentions on bringing back multi-user functionality) and you can see how the dam finally burst in the Pro community and the angry flood waters rushed in.

Apple better start communicating better with its pro customers, and re-assuring them that it's committed to professional work in this new era of the iPhone/iPad. Otherwise, a lot of people will be heading for the doors...

Hear (bloody) hear!

Personally I don't believe Apple are too interested in this market. Which is quite bad because Apple were really good with pro apps and hardware, where do us prosumers/freelance people go now?

How's Adobe Premier these days?

esquared
Jun 26, 2011, 11:12 AM
Been using FCP since ver. 3, and I've watched them add chunks of code to do things that needed doing up to ver. 7. In my experiences ver. 7 is awful, with cryptic error messages, incompatible format mixing, poor media management, the list is long. That said I still like it better than other NLE's, which is to say they all kind of suck. If Apple didn't do something drastic, and soon, they would have lost me and I have to assume I am not alone in that thinking. Who knows how many they've lost in the past year for these same reasons? Now, been training and using FCPX and I think as an editor it's simply wonderful; fast, intuitive and even fun. Would love to have had it 3 months ago, it would've saved many hours of work on this past project. I do think however that it was a poor product transition, but that seems the rule rather than the exception with Apple. One thing I've learned long ago, any statements with the words "all", "none", "every", etc.. is to be taken very lightly.

Prallethrin
Jun 26, 2011, 11:12 AM
I don't do video editing, but with all the trolling and anti-Apple hate that par for the course on the Internet...

I can't help but feel that this is antenna-gate all over again**, where the haters see blood in the water and blow the whole thing out of proportion with the media joining in the mass hysteria when they see there is ad money to be made.

/shrug
But what do I know.

Nevertheless, the interwebs have lost a good deal of credibility with me when it comes to evaluation of Apple's products.


** The antenna is actually more or less just fine. No one is complaining about it anymore despite the fact that NOTHING has changed about the iPhone 4's antenna.

The iPhone 4 has proceded to sell millions without a hitch.

Gray.2
Jun 26, 2011, 11:12 AM
I am sick of the stupid kids who has no idea of video editing posting their useless garbage in here.

Final Cut Pro X IS GARBAGE!!!!

I work in a TV station, we had no less than 900 projects in FCP 7 and is just no tolerable not having FCP X not reading those projects 100%. We are not exporting in any other stinky format, WE JUST CAN NOT! WE HAVE NO TIME!

Compressor 3 was mediocre enough, Final Cut Server was a complete lie already.

By the end of the year we are going to switch the entire platform to Adobe Premiere and that is going to cost our shareholders some good money and time and training but better safe than depending on a CEO of a crazy software company with cancer in his brain creating software for Barbie.

There are not excuses, we have been left alone on the wild with FCP X. It is a lame joke that has no excuses.

It is just like changing every single gas station to hydrogen overnight. What do I do with my car now? you ask, well we are not supporting it anymore.

I mean, the bunch of kids doesn't get it.

If I had a gun with one bullet and had Fidel Castro in front of me or Randi Ubillos... wow... I would be pointing back and forth.

Steve Balmer must be shocked and laughing at this and you bet FCP X will end up in the Guinness Book of Records as the biggest software flaw ever!

Who in the hell cares about Fidel Castro in 2011?

Your argument seemed legit until that little nugget.

Do you happen to work for Fox?

NAG
Jun 26, 2011, 11:18 AM
I don't necessarily think the problem is with the new tools. It's more the lack of the "professional" tools. This is really just Final Cut Express X. It's one thing if the editors were soley complaining about the new features. That is not the case. There are those, but there is much more to it. Apple has completely removed all the "Pro" features from Final Cut PRO!!!!! What did they expect people would say? You can't call it a Pro app and take out a professionals' life blood from a product and not expect a backlash. Imagine a new version of Photoshop was released and could not read PSDs?? A new interface is one thing. This?....this is NOT a Pro app. Apple really screwed the pooch here.

Thats like saying Apple took the system out of operation system in OS X.

FCP 7 was on a path to a dead end and needed a rewrite (technology-wise).

Yes, they screwed up by doing what I assume they thought would be a clean break as far as discontinuing the old version. But isn't that a completely different matter than Apple taking the "Pro" out of of Final Cut? You can't really support your claim that this 1.0 will never gain any features that are missing by saying Apple discontinued the old product and the new one doesn't have backwards compatibility.

Simplicated
Jun 26, 2011, 11:18 AM
I personally do not like the "release first, patch later" approach.

NAG
Jun 26, 2011, 11:24 AM
I personally do not like the "release first, patch later" approach.

Then I assume you hated OS X until version 10.4 (which is fair, OS X was a complete mess for a while and Apple gave free or near free updates for quite some time).

As far as this "Apple hates Pros" meme, it reminds me a lot of the "Apple hates Macs" meme. People go on about how macs weren't getting updated, Apple was only focusing on iOS, OS X didn't show up at WWDC 2010, etc... We ended up getting a great update to the Macbook Air line, 10.7 looks to be a good and inexpensive update and we have rumors that the Mac Pro line is up for a complete overhaul as well as the Macbook Pro line.

Oh wait, that last bit contradicted the "Apple hates Pros" meme. I can never keep track of which rumors to ignore and which ones to latch on to when for respective themes.

Stridder44
Jun 26, 2011, 11:24 AM
I don't recall anyone being forced to use FCP X, do you?


Well, considering Apple has completely removed any ability for someone to buy FCP7...

I mean sure, you could use Avid, but many many people already have everything set up for FCP. Apple is really screwing over a lot of people here with their raging hard-on for iOS devices.

jaw04005
Jun 26, 2011, 11:25 AM
I've never used Final Cut Pro before and I just edited a short video of some coworker's friends learning to swim. I understand the frustration if you're a professional, but this is basically the iMovie I've always wanted.

The new ProKit interface is very sleek. I can't wait to see what happens to Aperture.

It may take Apple a year or two (to replace the missing features of 7), but if they manage to turn Final Cut Pro X into an application that both prosumers and professionals can equally use --- Apple could really change the pro apps industry (hello Photoshop, you're next). They've already got the price right.

Apple may make decisions that appear rash at the time, but in hindsight very few have turned out to be bad for Apple or Apple's customers. You don't win by betting against Apple.

bbtylrv
Jun 26, 2011, 11:26 AM
The real tragedy here is if Apple thinks all the anger over FCP X is just about that particular software, and not the growing fear over the last few years that pro apps and gear are a fading priority for Apple. For instance:

* It took almost 2.5 years to go from Final Cut Studio 2 to Final Cut Studio 3, and Final Cut Studio 3 was just a moderate update. Then it took almost another 2 full years to introduce Final Cut Pro X, which removed tons of features!

* Apple bought Shake, and then cancelled it. Cancelled it! Apple said there would be a next-generation app coming in Shake's place, but that never showed up.

* Apple started letting Logic atrophy.

* Apple "phoned-in" the last few Mac Pro updates, just slapping in some new Intel chips, but not adding value such as 1) more expansion slots (three slots is not a lot for a workstation), and 2) never bothering to include an eSATA port, even though tons of media professionals started using eSATA, 3) never bothering to include a USB3 port, etc. etc. Many people are wondering if the new Thunderbolt port will be Apple's excuse to give up on the Mac Pro altogether.

* Apple stopped updating its "Pro" page almost two years ago, here: http://www.apple.com/pro/

* Apple stopped attending NAB, and other standard industry events.

* Multiple rumors that Apple was trying to sell its Pro Apps division....


People have spent a lot of time and money building their businesses and careers around FCP. But since the iPhone launched, FCP and other pro apps and gear have gotten noticeably less attention.

That makes a lot of people nervous, and left to wonder what Apple's intentions are. You really can't help but wonder because Apple is so ridiculously silent about its intentions, which works fine on the consumer side but not when people are investing tens of thousands of dollars in apps and gear around Apple.

Combine that with Apple shipping a new version of Final Cut that is so radically different and so underpowered, and also discontinuing sales for FCS 3 suites and FCP Server (with no explanation about Server's demise or any intentions on bringing back multi-user functionality) and you can see how the dam finally burst in the Pro community and the angry flood waters rushed in.

Apple better start communicating better with its pro customers, and re-assuring them that it's committed to professional work in this new era of the iPhone/iPad. Otherwise, a lot of people will be heading for the doors...

I would suggest that you just switch to a Windows machine then. If you cannot see the forest through the trees and just hang on to FCP7 for a while, then you sound more like a PC person anyway. Apple is about thinking different. If that is not your style, then head on over to the PC side of the aisle. If you wait a bit, keep editing on FCP7 and see how this pans out, I believe you will find your self in good shape. Panic posts like the one you wrote may allow you to feel a bit better through venting, but you honestly sound irrational. Apple owes you nothing-- I think consumers forget this all the time. Just ask anyone who converted their music collection to "plays for sure". We are consumers and we are at the mercy of the creation companies. At the end of the day, I have far more trust for Apple than I do any PC based company. I feel their track record is pretty strong-- and I would guess that the guy who created the original FCP (Randy U.) is not going to let it die. I think Apple (and Randy) are thinking different and that we will all do well to hold back judgement for a bit. Otherwise, quit complaining, recognize that there is nothing you can do about it, and switch to PC. If that sounds good to you-- then go for it. Just please stop complaining about an unfinished product. You can argue all you want that it isn't ready or that they shouldn't have released it-- but what good will that do? It has been released, now we have to decide how to respond. I wish you the best-- and mean no disrespect-- I just think this is being blown out of proportion.

Perhaps I am completely wrong-- but time will tell, at this point you can be sure of nothing beyond your own perception. Perceptions have failed many confident people throughout history, so the wise usually hold back judgment until the knee-jerk has settled down. I believe it is too early to know.

Again, no disrespect-- I respect Randy U. and believe he will come through for us.

arkmannj
Jun 26, 2011, 11:29 AM
I'm really justa prosumer when it comes to video editing 'n such. I love doing it (on the side mostly) but don't make my bread-and-butter doing it. With that said I need to give FCPX a full test run before I give my full thoughts. But for now I'll say I'm still adjusting to the whole iMovie kinda feel to it, it may be "simpler' seeming, but it actually feels a bit more frustrating. I'm sure I can get used to it and adjust but for now that's how I feel.

My real disappointments are still now real Shake replacement, Soundtrack Pro, and DVD Studio Pro. (In short, with the apps being all separate we're missing parts of the suite) In the case of DVD SP, I didn't expect Apple to keep it in its current form, but maybe evolve it into something that could product interactive quicktime content, and DVD's, etc.

On a side note, Is "Motion" supposed to be the shake replacement? and if so, does the new version have more of the old shake tools yet? like morpher? and can it import Maya 3D projects etc.?

dethmaShine
Jun 26, 2011, 11:29 AM
Anyone who needs a new license of FCP 7?

The post you quoted implied that 'No one is forced to use FCPX'. The does not imply whether one can buy FCP 7 or not. Just use any other software.

Again not saying that that's what you should do but a logical reply to your argument to the quoted post.

iphonepiephone
Jun 26, 2011, 11:32 AM
I for one can't wait until all of these so-called "pros" stop their griping and get out of the way. Move to PP or Avid and leave the next generation to determine the path. All of the pros I know either adapt to new technology or they find other things to do with their lives. I'm pretty sure that when the EVS came out, all the tape guys thought it was the end of the world, now we're dependent on a tapeless system - is it perfect, no, but it's a helluva lot better than lugging around reels or betas and editing tape to tape.

Things will get better, if they're not getting better fast enough for you, then by all means abandon ship. FCPX works for me*, so I think I'll stick around and see what happens next.

*I don't cut features or rely on an extensive post house. Cut highlights, sprinkle on some AE or Motion, get them on TV, no looking back - on to the next game.

+3 and then +10 = +10, for the -3 ratings some gave you. :)



If you got hit by a truck tonight, would FCP be the first thing on your mind? Boo hoo, Apple have moved on from ancient formats... so? They LEAD the tech world, and I don't see anyone complaining that they DEFINED the Computer, OS *and* smartphone markets, do you?

Hard as it may be, as frustrating as it may be, you're either gonna have to accept the fact that technology is moving forward, and solid state media is the here and now of video, or cling onto legacy BS forever. There is never a "right time" - people would procrastinate into infinity, so Apple saved you the bother - BHAM! No more tape!! Done - and done MEANS done.

I recall all the complaints when Apple indicated they'd be making a touchscreen iPod... oh what a childish fuss... :rolleyes:

Oh but "the industry uses tape" - well, maybe this is a kick up the backside for "the industry" too.

PS: I'll be round at 09:30 tomorrow, with that showreel I made for you... on floppy. Hope your Mac can handle floppies?

NAG
Jun 26, 2011, 11:35 AM
I'm really justa prosumer when it comes to video editing 'n such. I love doing it (on the side mostly) but don't make my bread-and-butter doing it. With that said I need to give FCPX a full test run before I give my full thoughts. But for now I'll say I'm still adjusting to the whole iMovie kinda feel to it, it may be "simpler' seeming, but it actually feels a bit more frustrating. I'm sure I can get used to it and adjust but for now that's how I feel.

My real disappointments are still now real Shake replacement, Soundtrack Pro, and DVD Studio Pro. (In short, with the apps being all separate we're missing parts of the suite) In the case of DVD SP, I didn't expect Apple to keep it in its current form, but maybe evolve it into something that could product interactive quicktime content, and DVD's, etc.

I really would not hold my breath for anything relating to DVDs or BluRay. Apple has made it pretty clear that they think optical is a dead end technology and will no longer be supporting it. We're lucky that iMacs and Macbooks even have optical drives, frankly (and I wouldn't be surprised if they do disappear from consumer Macs in a year or two).

Yes, I know optical disks are used for other things than consumers watching movies or loading software. It doesn't change Apple treating optical just like they treated floppies.

Imhotep397
Jun 26, 2011, 11:45 AM
Ok, this is one of those situations where Apple has supported someone with a horrible and misinformed vision of how to create software for a profession he knows very little about. I understand more now after doing a bit of background checking on Ubillos. I now know why Final Cut Pro X feels like Adobe Premiere 4...it's because Ubillos designed the first 4 versions of Premiere before Adobe canned him and integrated real, and usable 3-point editing into Premiere. Adobe pulled him off of Premiere and now after a decade of being looked down on as amateur software, thanks to his handiwork, Adobe finally has Premiere looking and feeling like a pro application. Apple should learn a lesson from history and get Ubillos out ASAP.

iphonepiephone
Jun 26, 2011, 11:46 AM
I really would not hold my breath for anything relating to DVDs or BluRay. Apple has made it pretty clear that they think optical is a dead end technology and will no longer be supporting it. We're lucky that iMacs and Macbooks even have optical drives, frankly (and I wouldn't be surprised if they do disappear from consumer Macs in a year or two).

Yes, I know optical disks are used for other things than consumers watching movies or loading software. It doesn't change Apple treating optical just like they treated floppies.

Optical is well dead, ages ago. I keep telling my Blu Ray fan friend this, but he disagrees. Seriously, has the adoption of Blu Ray been even 1/10th of that which DVD was? Wonder why.

Ok, this is one of those situations where Apple has supported someone with a horrible and misinformed vision of how to create software for a profession he knows very little about. I understand more now after doing a bit of background checking on Ubillos. I now know why Final Cut Pro X feels like Adobe Premiere 4...it's because Ubillos designed the first 4 versions of Premiere before Adobe canned him and integrated real, and usable 3-point editing into Premiere. Adobe pulled him off of Premiere and now after a decade of being looked down on as amateur software, thanks to his handiwork, Adobe finally has Premiere looking and feeling like a pro application. Apple should learn a lesson from history and get Ubillos out ASAP.

Sulk sulk, blame blame... you are like Cleopatra - she was also "In de Nile"

Oletros
Jun 26, 2011, 11:48 AM
+3 and then +10 = +10, for the -3 ratings some gave you. :)



If you got hit by a truck tonight, would FCP be the first thing on your mind? Boo hoo, Apple have moved on from ancient formats... so? They LEAD the tech world, and I don't see anyone complaining that they DEFINED the Computer, OS *and* smartphone markets, do you?

Hard as it may be, as frustrating as it may be, you're either gonna have to accept the fact that technology is moving forward, and solid state media is the here and now of video, or cling onto legacy BS forever. There is never a "right time" - people would procrastinate into infinity, so Apple saved you the bother - BHAM! No more tape!! Done - and done MEANS done.

I recall all the complaints when Apple indicated they'd be making a touchscreen iPod... oh what a childish fuss... :rolleyes:

Oh but "the industry uses tape" - well, maybe this is a kick up the backside for "the industry" too.

PS: I'll be round at 09:30 tomorrow, with that showreel I made for you... on floppy. Hope your Mac can handle floppies?


Uau, this is a lot of kool-aid drink.

What has to do tape or digital media with multicam support or OMF export?

Oletros
Jun 26, 2011, 11:51 AM
Optical is well dead, ages ago. I keep telling my Blu Ray fan friend this, but he disagrees. Seriously, has the adoption of Blu Ray been even 1/10th of that which DVD was? Wonder why.

Can you show me any digital download or streaming service with Bluray quality.

skellener
Jun 26, 2011, 11:54 AM
The basic problem as I see it is that this program is designed for a single user on a single machine.Just like oh, say...an iPhone or iPad??? Sorry to get off topic, but it's the same issue. There are no user accounts on iOS devices. I guess in "Apple's World" people never share devices (or FCPX projects). They just buy more hardware.

cpfoto2005
Jun 26, 2011, 11:54 AM
Experience, that is why I say to step aside and let the one who know do the talking. As Henry Ford said: if I ask my costumer what they want they will say "faster horses".



Sorry, but that wasn't the best quote for you to use. In this case, you are the
costumer[sic].

manu chao
Jun 26, 2011, 11:55 AM
A similar analogy would be Microsoft immediately cutting sales and support for Windows XP when Windows Vista came out, and the public didn't get what was thought to be a "decent" OS until Windows 7 three years later.
And large swathes of business still installing XP on any newly purchased computers five years after its successor was released is a good situation? No third-party programmer (nor MS itself) can make use of any advances in W7 because so many people still use XP.
The problem isn't with Final Cut, it's Apple's culture of secrecy. Not having roadmaps scares people that needs to plan months/years in advance.
Take it or leave it, if you value roadmaps over better software, stick with AVID. Everybody knows how Apple operates, they just think that by collective willpower they can change that. This is called self-delusion.


Here's a list of similar situations where Apple's secrecy was to their disadvantage:
1) "Antennagate"
2) iOS "location tracking" - heck, they had congressional meetings on that one
3) Lodsys patent trolling

Apple took about one week to ten days to respond to both the location tracking and the Lodsys event. That is not secrecy, that is taking the time it takes for any well-measured response. And I cannot see how Apple's general secrecy facilitated these two incidents in the first place, both could as easily happened to any other company.
Same is true for 'Antennagate', how did Apple's secrecy lead to this? You seem to confuse secrecy with not responding daily to events unfolding.

skellener
Jun 26, 2011, 11:58 AM
Thats like saying Apple took the system out of operation system in OS X.

FCP 7 was on a path to a dead end and needed a rewrite (technology-wise).

Yes, they screwed up by doing what I assume they thought would be a clean break as far as discontinuing the old version. But isn't that a completely different matter than Apple taking the "Pro" out of of Final Cut? You can't really support your claim that this 1.0 will never gain any features that are missing by saying Apple discontinued the old product and the new one doesn't have backwards compatibility. Oh, I agree with you. A clean break, new code, absolutely. There is just sooo much missing for Pro's to use it right now. Hopefully we'll see the return of much of what is needed to deliver shows soon. There have been some really great articles so far about FCPX about what it will need to put the Pro back in FC.

*LTD*
Jun 26, 2011, 12:01 PM
Seriously? This is supposed to be a pro-software.

Who are the "Pros"? That's the first question you need to ask.

The definition is changing. Look at what's going on around you.

This is not just about a video editing software package. No way. It's about the shift happening in the big picture. The transition, baby. You dig it? Technology being taken out of the elitist realm of "Pros" and IT/tech tech types and being put into the hands of Joe Average. Same power. Different interface. Different modes of interaction. All simplified. The ultimate goal of engineering realized. FINALLY. This paradigm shift is being driven by Apple. Over a decade in the making. We skipped a few years in the 90s. But we were back on track soon enough.

This is all about the big shift. "Computer literacy" is like saying "walking literacy." Meaning there doesn't need to be any. What a waste of time, learning computers, when they should let you learn Dostoevsky, or Michel Foucault, or Renaissance Art. "Computers" will no longer be a subject to be learned. That's for coders and engineers. Leave users out of it, thank you very much. Computer devices are just pencils that let you do the actual writing - the stuff that matters. These devices are no longer ends in themselves to be studied and understood. They're becoming beautiful, enjoyable, amazingly usable tools. For everyone.

Big picture thinking. Cultivate it. Everything will become clear. Then you can work on your acceptance thereof.

darkplanets
Jun 26, 2011, 12:01 PM
I love reading all the knee-jerk reactions in here.

Time will tell the future, not your senseless pandering. In the meantime, enjoy FCP7, and if FCPX doesn't pan out, then you can switch software.

manu chao
Jun 26, 2011, 12:05 PM
Anyone who needs a new license of FCP 7?
I am sure there will be ways to get a license, for once everybody who is upgrading to FCP X can sell its FCP7 license since the new software is not an upgrade. Sure, most will hang to their old license for obvious reasons (legacy access) but some will surely be willing to shed at least some of their licenses if they own several of them.
And when push comes to shove, Apple will also find a solution (they did with iMovie '06).

arkmannj
Jun 26, 2011, 12:11 PM
I really would not hold my breath for anything relating to DVDs or BluRay. Apple has made it pretty clear that they think optical is a dead end technology and will no longer be supporting it. We're lucky that iMacs and Macbooks even have optical drives, frankly (and I wouldn't be surprised if they do disappear from consumer Macs in a year or two).

Yes, I know optical disks are used for other things than consumers watching movies or loading software. It doesn't change Apple treating optical just like they treated floppies.

Yeah I'm not holding my breath. but I thought maybe they'd rebrand it with a new name and transform it into something for digital distribution but that could still handle the old DVD burning. (like the old interactive quicktime movies we used to have) but maybe they feel a product like that would be to similar to Adobe Flash. I must be old, but I still like being able to make physical media, even if the final project will be all digital distribution.

*LTD*
Jun 26, 2011, 12:19 PM
Here's a list of similar situations where Apple's secrecy was to their disadvantage:
1) "Antennagate"
2) iOS "location tracking" - heck, they had congressional meetings on that one
3) Lodsys patent trolling

The people who actually matter - consumers - didn't even notice. The proof is in the backlash pudding - meaning there wasn't any. When there are no appreciable consequences for your handling of a situation x and y and z, then your handling of situation x and y and z was just fine.

Stick with reality. Apple's secrecy is one of the primary reasons they now have $70 billion in cash burning hole in their pocket and why today they can do virtually anything in tech with a more than reasonable chance of success.

Those there points you've got - they're as minor as you can get. A very fair and easy price to pay considering the incredible benefits of Apple's overall strategy - both to Apple and consumers at large.

ThunderSkunk
Jun 26, 2011, 12:19 PM
Seeing this FCPX shocker from the outside is a little hilarious.

It so perfectly mirrors what's happened to every architecture, design & engineering firm with regard to software over the last 20 years.

Those of us who've gotten used to and built our businesses around 15 years of AutoCAD, invested millions of hours in our highly customized workflows, memorized tens of thousands of operations, commands, methods of visualization & thinking geometrically & building massively complex structures upon that... well, it's all the old way. Every time we get a minor software update, we grumble about training on new features taking away from production.

And then...

You see what the new guys down the street are using. It does amazing things. It does them for you. It's the future. So you get it. And it completely trashes your entire business and everything you do and know.

We scream and rant and rave, and look for alternatives that more resemble our tried and true old way. ...but in the end, we retire or wander off, and are replaced by children who do it the new way.

ScottishDuck
Jun 26, 2011, 12:29 PM
All the posts rushing to defend FCPX seem to forget that people actually paid for this software and as consumers have a right to expect a quality product.

4God
Jun 26, 2011, 12:35 PM
I make 120K a year and I have 8 video editors...

...we have to re compress 8 movies per week into H264 and it takes around 6 hours each just because stinky Compressor only recognizes one core.

Well then you should setup QMaster correctly so Compressor will see all your cores. It uses all eight cores on my Mac Pro. ;) I don't think it's a software issue I believe it's a user issue.

Imhotep397
Jun 26, 2011, 12:40 PM
Out of curiosity, are you forced to go to FCP X right now?

It seems to me that with all the uproar over this, the strongest statement the video editing community could make is to NOT adopt the product at this time, and wait until any substandard/missing features are addressed by Apple.

There are a lot of "This sucks! I can't use it!" statements being made....so people...don't use it.

Just sayin'



....Uh, YEAH. If you don't already have your own seat of FCS 3 you're going to have to hunt down a copy and possibly pay double on eBay for it since Apple's decided to stop selling it all together. The other option is to just switch to Adobe and get CS 5.5 Master Collection or Avid MC, which a lot of people are planning for unless Apple makes some kind of extreme public announcement on a major path change SOON. I mean when FCP gets blasted on Conan that just gives everyone the free right to totally bash on Apple which will force them to address this...if they are still smart. At this point it's in the same category as iPhone antenna issue and the "Apple is tracking you every step you take" debacles and the company was forced to deal with those problems just to kill the public relations nightmares.

Obviously step 1 is to fire Randy Ubillos. Then un-"End of Life" Final Cut Studio 3 and make it compatible with Lion. Next step is to rename Final Cut Pro X "Final Cut Express X." Then add a Viewer Window to FCPX for real and usable 3-point editing, write an exporter that allows "Cuts Only" project files and media open in FCP 7 and bundle FCPX with Motion 5 and Compressor 4 as a "Stable Beta" for about $100 while Apple continues WITH USER INPUT developing FCPX to the point where it's usable for professionals and you can get previous FCP projects into it.

iphonepiephone
Jun 26, 2011, 12:45 PM
Imagine the disaster if you were CEO of Apple ^

Drama Queens :rolleyes:

Dranix
Jun 26, 2011, 12:48 PM
I never knew selfstyled pros are so whiny. Are you little girls or pros? As if Jobs had got your toy in the sandbox… :rolleyes:

iphonepiephone
Jun 26, 2011, 12:56 PM
I never knew selfstyled pros are so whiny. Are you little girls or pros? As if Jobs had got your toy in the sandbox… :rolleyes:

The real questions are:

1/ Who branded these "Pros", "Pros"? Their Mums? Putting a video on YT and getting 100,000 hits doesn't automagically entitle you to use "Pro" status, it just means you have the skills it takes to make content.

2/ How can there be THIS many real professional video editors out there? I can call myself a "Pro" out of the blue - doesn't make me one.

3/ How come *so* many "Pros" have days to sit on forums, complaining about software they've barely got to know (because they've spent 80% of the time on forums, complaining)

4/ You should be SO busy learning FCPX so that you don't get made redundant, that you can barely think about other stuff, and if not, you'll be editing happily on older revisions, rushed off your feet with work, because, ya know, you're a "Pro" ;)

I'll take a bucket of salt for any further complaints, and spread it liberally.

"I'm a Professssssssssssssssssionalll, oh yesssss"...

BS, for so many reasons. A "Pro" would adapt as best they could, and STILL be capable of producing incredible content, seamlessly, even with Win Movie Maker (and they sure would have no time for MR threads).

Don't see Steven Spielberg anywhere on here, do you?

Keebler
Jun 26, 2011, 12:57 PM
Well then you should setup QMaster correctly so Compressor will see all your cores. It uses all eight cores on my Mac Pro. ;) I don't think it's a software issue I believe it's a user issue.

or also buy a CompressHD card from Matrox for $500 and have it run almost real time or faster for H.264 and since it's a hardware based encoding card, you can still be working at the same time.

save time in 2 ways :)

Rodimus Prime
Jun 26, 2011, 01:01 PM
Simple truth is Apple is done with the pro market. FCPX was just the latest in the long list of middle fingers Apple has given the people who supported them threw the tough times.

Lets face it Apple does not care about its bread and butter people and has left them in the cold. This is more proof of the fact of why Apple is not in the enterprise world and being kicked out of the pro world. The lack of road maps, the breaking of promises left and right and lets say half backed up dates.

Consumer fine they got that. One problem with playing in only the conusmer market is that it is not a question of if the consumer market will go cold on your and kick you out but a question of when and WHEN it happens you have to fall back on your bread and butter and your core market. A core market that Apple is quickly loosing and will no longer have when it happens.

Consumer market is "What is hot one day is cold the next." I do not care how good you are that is just a fact. It is a question of when. Never a question of if it will happen but a question of when.

WestonHarvey1
Jun 26, 2011, 01:07 PM
Simple truth is Apple is done with the pro market. FCPX was just the latest in the long list of middle fingers Apple has given the people who supported them threw the tough times.

Lets face it Apple does not care about its bread and butter people and has left them in the cold. This is more proof of the fact of why Apple is not in the enterprise world and being kicked out of the pro world. The lack of road maps, the breaking of promises left and right and lets say half backed up dates.

Consumer fine they got that. One problem with playing in only the conusmer market is that it is not a question of if the consumer market will go cold on your and kick you out but a question of when and WHEN it happens you have to fall back on your bread and butter and your core market. A core market that Apple is quickly loosing and will no longer have when it happens.

Consumer market is "What is hot one day is cold the next." I do not care how good you are that is just a fact. It is a question of when. Never a question of if it will happen but a question of when.

So they spent all that time, money, and effort creating an consumer-targeted upgraded iMovie that consumers will never spend $300 for?

I think that, perhaps, you might be wrong.

iphonepiephone
Jun 26, 2011, 01:08 PM
Larry Jordan has got something to help the pain; if you've time to sit about complaining, then you've got time to watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wozDcPB1EE

Digitalclips
Jun 26, 2011, 01:11 PM
You do know that the genius who "ruined" FCP and iMovie is also the genius who created FCP and iMovie to begin with, right?

Quite correct. Not to mention Adobe Premier and before that Radius Edit. He is literally the farther of desktop video editing ... PERIOD.

Rodimus Prime
Jun 26, 2011, 01:20 PM
So they spent all that time, money, and effort creating an consumer-targeted upgraded iMovie that consumers will never spend $300 for?

I think that, perhaps, you might be wrong.

No they spent it on a Prosumer design but it is no where close to pro level. FCPX is not a pro product. End of story. It lacks huge features other professional grade products have. It is not a pro product. It is a prosumer product but not professional grade.

Apple has more or less abandon the pro market place. They have chosen to only really focus on the consumer market.
Consumer market a company can earn much higher profits but consumer market changes at the drop of a hate and is not as stable.

I ask you what has Apple really brought the the table in the past 5 years that pushed more in the pro market. All I have seen is thing after thing of them leaving it and given them the finger.

You have had token upgrades at best to the Mac Pros and those token upgrades are generally late and behind the times. They have either lagged or failed to really do any real upgrades to the software. They dropped Xserver and not put up a real replacement.

Apple is done with the pro market. That part is not in question. They are showing they want only profit and the pro market the profit margins are not as good but the advantages is that market is much more stable and predictable. Unlike the consumer market were things will go cold at the drop of a hat. Does not happen as often in the pro market.

BornAgainMac
Jun 26, 2011, 01:22 PM
I hated iMovie '08 at first but now I couldn't go back to the older iMovie before it. I think it is still possible to produce some great video from FCPX in a short time. If I was using Final Cut Pro 7 in my business, I wouldn't even worry about FCPX for a few years as my primary tool. In 3 years, it should be ready for prime time.

Alpi69
Jun 26, 2011, 01:26 PM
I consider myself a pro and I had my share of editing-software and upgrades with them.

this is not an upgrade. it is a new software and it is very good for a .0 version. in fact it blows away the old FCP7 in almost every aspect when EDITING.

the ingest is not working yet, the peripherals are not working yet (i got matrox boxes to view on good monitors), some might miss the tape-workflow etc. Fine, I agree, we are betatesters or thetatesters.....but the EDITING is so much more intuitiv than anything I tried since the days of the FAST suite it is breathtaking.

there are several features that will save me dozens of hours per year. and no, i do not mean auto-balance and auto-antishake. i mean new shortcuts, audition, new trimtool, motion-implementation, color-implementation.

i can´t wait for version .5

iphonepiephone
Jun 26, 2011, 01:29 PM
No they spent it on a Prosumer design but it is no where close to pro level. FCPX is not a pro product. End of story. It lacks huge features other professional grade products have. It is not a pro product. It is a prosumer product but not professional grade.

Apple has more or less abandon the pro market place. They have chosen to only really focus on the consumer market.
Consumer market a company can earn much higher profits but consumer market changes at the drop of a hate and is not as stable.

I ask you what has Apple really brought the the table in the past 5 years that pushed more in the pro market. All I have seen is thing after thing of them leaving it and given them the finger.

You have had token upgrades at best to the Mac Pros and those token upgrades are generally late and behind the times. They have either lagged or failed to really do any real upgrades to the software. They dropped Xserver and not put up a real replacement.

Apple is done with the pro market. That part is not in question. They are showing they want only profit and the pro market the profit margins are not as good but the advantages is that market is much more stable and predictable. Unlike the consumer market were things will go cold at the drop of a hat. Does not happen as often in the pro market.

Okay, I suppose I'd better sell everything Apple, and buy PCs then. I was quite happy, but after reading your amazing insight into the inner workings of AAPL, I'm selling up.

You're right in everything which you say. Odd that you're still on a Mac forum, however.

Boo Hoo.

Jerome Morrow
Jun 26, 2011, 01:31 PM
I consider myself a pro and I had my share of editing-software and upgrades with them.

this is not an upgrade. it is a new software and it is very good for a .0 version. in fact it blows away the old FCP7 in almost every aspect when EDITING.

the ingest is not working yet, the peripherals are not working yet (i got matrox boxes to view on good monitors), some might miss the tape-workflow etc. Fine, I agree, we are betatesters or thetatesters.....but the EDITING is so much more intuitiv than anything I tried since the days of the FAST suite it is breathtaking.

there are several features that will save me dozens of hours per year. and no, i do not mean auto-balance and auto-antishake. i mean new shortcuts, audition, new trimtool, motion-implementation, color-implementation.

i can´t wait for version .5

I feel exactly the same way. Did few rough cuts of some stuff i did few years back almost in not time, plus it's fast with OpenCL.

Okay, I suppose I'd better sell everything Apple, and buy PCs then. I was quite happy, but after reading your amazing insight into the inner workings of AAPL, I'm selling up.

You're right in everything which you say. Odd that you're still on a Mac forum, however.

Boo Hoo.

Why do you even bother.

rodallen
Jun 26, 2011, 01:35 PM
As a matter of interest, I just checked ITV plc's Technical Requirements for Commercial Material version 5.3, because ITV is, of course, the destination for much of our commercial work here in the UK. It says they're delighted to receive commercials on Digi Beta, but that:

'ITV are now able to offer an alternative method of delivery to tape and the commercial playout and we now offer delivery by file.' (Page 10).

Good, then, that's one workflow that FCP X can handle -- and one client who has started down the road to the new paradigms that it represents.

iphonepiephone
Jun 26, 2011, 01:41 PM
Why do you even bother.



Why do you even bother... replying, then?

*LTD*
Jun 26, 2011, 01:41 PM
Simple truth is Apple is done with the pro market. FCPX was just the latest in the long list of middle fingers Apple has given the people who supported them threw the tough times.

Who are the new Pros? We are.

Consumers supported them through tough times - pros, average joes, everyone in-between. Apple OWES NOTHING to any particular segment of their market, apart from satisfying warranty obligations. No one gives a **** whether you were there at the "beginning" or you were faithful to Apple "through the tough times." You want a medal for it?? You're no more special than a brand new user. So get over it. There is no "consumer seniority" here.


Lets face it Apple does not care about its bread and butter people and has left them in the cold. This is more proof of the fact of why Apple is not in the enterprise world and being kicked out of the pro world. The lack of road maps, the breaking of promises left and right and lets say half backed up dates.

Apple's bread and butter people are the people who hand them record quarters every few months. Who else would they be? Apple does consumer and now, prosumer. Pros now have easier and better tools. If they can't adapt, guess what: A NEW BREED OF PROS who love FCPX will emerge. Let the old ones either adapt or switch to something else. There are users out there *right now* who will be learning FCPX, having never used a previous version or who have found the previous version too difficult. Pros are a niche market. They'll be recycled just the same as always. We're growing up with new tools.


Consumer fine they got that. One problem with playing in only the conusmer market is that it is not a question of if the consumer market will go cold on your and kick you out but a question of when and WHEN it happens you have to fall back on your bread and butter and your core market. A core market that Apple is quickly loosing and will no longer have when it happens.

Does the consumer market look like they'll kick Apple out? Where have you been the past few years?? Apple's on track to continue hitting new highs in the consumer market - the biggest market - for the next 3-5 years, easily. Why should it go cold on Apple? Is it supposed to go cold? When will this happen? What if it happens in 20 years? Then what? Does the amazing run we're having right now not count? Apple's core market is the average consumer. LOTS of people like that. It appears no one is serving them BUT Apple.

If the competition hasn't figured out Apples game by now, what makes you think they'll figure it out next year? Or the year after that?

Consumer market is "What is hot one day is cold the next." I do not care how good you are that is just a fact. It is a question of when. Never a question of if it will happen but a question of when.

You wish. No, really. You wish this was true and true as fast as possible. it holds no water, until it actually happens. And no one knows. All we have is what's happening now. By the looks of it, Apple's got the consumer market locked nice and tight for the better part of this decade at least.

Enjoy the ride.

Jerome Morrow
Jun 26, 2011, 01:44 PM
Why do you even bother... replying, then?

I'm stubborn that way.

iphonepiephone
Jun 26, 2011, 01:49 PM
Ah, lots of prima donna wannabe "Pros" (A "Pro" what, exactly?), shouting one another down, with their tired, pointless & recycled opinons:

"No, *I'm* the one with the RIGHT opinion - listen to ME, because MY opinion is RIGHT. PERIOD. Apple have just..." zzzz ZZZZZZZ

Sheesh, calm down already - this is mighty fine, but mighty dull :D


We're ALL equal in this world, and whether or not you consider yourself a "Pro", I betcha there's a 19 year old girl down the road from you, with a fresh mind, novice as she is, with TONS of talent and zero jaded attitude, who could put your stale work to shame, in 1/4 the time, using the good old "It'll never catch on"... FCPX.

Seriously, this is such a tiresome thread to read - we can ALL make video, and barely any viewers know/care what NLE was used, in the end. A professional would 5TFU and keep face.

KnightWRX
Jun 26, 2011, 01:52 PM
We scream and rant and rave, and look for alternatives that more resemble our tried and true old way. ...but in the end, we retire or wander off, and are replaced by children who do it the new way.

Reading this thread, I get the impression that FCPX's problem is not that it does things differently, it's that it doesn't do certain things that FCP7 does. So your children won't be doing stuff the new way, they won't be doing this stuff at all. Is this stuff important ?

The problem with Apple of today is that they have no roadmap. That's a pretty bad place to be in for users in enterprise and profesional level workflows. If you don't know what's coming, you can't plan for it and since implementation is usually a longer process at these levels, you're stuck playing catch-up all the time instead of planning for the future. And since Apple EOL/EOS's stuff on a dime, it leaves you little time to adjust.

If by now pros/enterprise don't understand that dealing with Apple is a bag of hurt, I don't know what it'll take. Move to vendors that have clearly defined roadmaps and sensible EOL/EOS announcements.

noggin2000
Jun 26, 2011, 01:52 PM
4/ You should be SO busy learning FCPX so that you don't get made redundant, that you can barely think about other stuff, and if not, you'll be editing happily on older revisions, rushed off your feet with work, because, ya know, you're a "Pro" ;)


If I were an FCP 7 / FCS editor working in broadcast or post at the moment who only knew how FCP 7 worked, then I'd be looking to switch to Avid or Premiere PDQ.

FCP X is certainly nowhere near ready for those markets, and as expanding organisations now can't use FCP 7 / FCS (you can't buy it and would be mad to without a commitment from Apple to continue to support it alongside FCP X - adding support for new codecs and OSs) they will have to switch platforms.

The irony that Premiere Pro in CS5.5 can open a project exported from FCP 7, but it appears that FCP X can't...

Seriously, you couldn't make this up.

jjhny
Jun 26, 2011, 01:52 PM
The real questions are:

1/ Who branded these "Pros", "Pros"? Their Mums? Putting a video on YT and getting 100,000 hits doesn't automagically entitle you to use "Pro" status, it just means you have the skills it takes to make content.


The definition is that if you get paid for your work or make your living from it you are a "Pro" - if you don't make any money or your living you are an "amateur."

A professional golfer gets paid to golf, an amateur golfer does not. It is fairly straightforward.


2/ How can there be THIS many real professional video editors out there? I can call myself a "Pro" out of the blue - doesn't make me one.


You are right, calling yourself a pro doesn't make you one - and by that logic, Final Cut Pro X isn't a professional app just because it has the word "pro" in it's name. Pro would mean it is for people who get paid using the software, so by definition it is not for the casual or amateur user. That is one issue why people are angry they co-opted the name pro. 'Final Cut Home X' might have worked as a name, 'Final Cut Single User X,' or 'iMovie Pro X' - any of these names and there would be no controversy!

Finally the argument is that it is ALL new - well, ok, so use a new name for it then!

sclawis300
Jun 26, 2011, 01:54 PM
On a lighter note, has anyone seen Team Coco's response to this?

http://teamcoco.com/video/conan-editors-love-final-cut

Oletros
Jun 26, 2011, 01:58 PM
Ah, lots of prima donna wannabe "Pros" (A "Pro" what, exactly?), shouting one another down, with their tired, pointless & recycled opinons:

"No, *I'm* the one with the RIGHT opinion - listen to ME, because MY opinion is RIGHT. PERIOD. Apple have just..." zzzz ZZZZZZZ

And you're doing exactly the same.


And insulting everyone which doesn't have your opinion

ctakim
Jun 26, 2011, 02:01 PM
Simple truth is Apple is done with the pro market. FCPX was just the latest in the long list of middle fingers Apple has given the people who supported them threw the tough times.
[snip]


Actually, I disagree. I don't think Apple has made a conscious decision to abandon the professional market, but they are taking a big gamble about the next step forward. So as to not cross post, I'll reference my own perspective on this here:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1177352

I think they are gambling on how to leapfrog to the next generation of core software technology for video editing. They've made a conscious effort to make an abrupt transition, which may backfire. But it is in Apple's DNA to push the envelope in this way. However, I do feel for those professionals who have pushed for the use of FCP, yet now feel abandoned. It must be quite gut wrenching.

LoganT
Jun 26, 2011, 02:03 PM
The most likely reason that Apple doesn't sell Final Cut Studio anymore is probably because most people already own it. It's not worth it to stock FCS on shelves, when most people who needed it, have already bought it. Plus, Apple might just assume that if you really need it, you could just pirate it. Or, install from someone else's copy.

econgeek
Jun 26, 2011, 02:08 PM
This thread is just like attempting to discuss video camera capabilities with people. You find a whole bunch of canon fans claiming that canon cameras are "pro" and that everything else sucks because it isn't "pro".

They don't understand the technology. They can't make a specific argument. They can't defend when the canon implementation is demonstrably poorer for video than a competitors. They don't even listen to that.

They just keep insisting that because they are a "pro" anything they like is also "professional quality" and anything they don't is amateur.

I doubt most of them have ever gotten a paid gig.

And, for what its worth, even though it's irrelevant-- I've been getting paid to cut going back to the days when cuts were made with special razorblades.

Oletros
Jun 26, 2011, 02:13 PM
This thread is just like attempting to discuss video camera capabilities with people. You find a whole bunch of canon fans claiming that canon cameras are "pro" and that everything else sucks because it isn't "pro".

They don't understand the technology. They can't make a specific argument. They can't defend when the canon implementation is demonstrably poorer for video than a competitors. They don't even listen to that.

They just keep insisting that because they are a "pro" anything they like is also "professional quality" and anything they don't is amateur.

I doubt most of them have ever gotten a paid gig.

And, for what its worth, even though it's irrelevant-- I've been getting paid to cut going back to the days when cuts were made with special razorblades.

If you're saying that those "pro's" aren't doing specific arguments the ones which are not listening or reading are not those "pro's"

illbeback
Jun 26, 2011, 02:16 PM
Maybe good later on, but right now it sucks.
Tell me any 1st version of software that "has it all"?
Listen, there's FCP 7 so use that and get used to FCP X in the background till the feature set gets there.
At least it'll be 64 bit.
Hey, I know... why don't YOU architect the next NLE!

arn
Jun 26, 2011, 02:19 PM
On a lighter note, has anyone seen Team Coco's response to this?

http://teamcoco.com/video/conan-editors-love-final-cut

check out our sub-blogs on the sidebar

jjhny
Jun 26, 2011, 02:21 PM
Run everything through a KiPro - that solves your tape problem.

That is nice! And, yes, going forward, sure - look likes a good solution. AJA is a great company - I own a KONA board.

But it doesn't handle the racks and racks of digibeta, betasp, etc, etc. at the existing facilities.

Tape input is a module in a program, it is not rocket science how it operates - it doesn't have to be 64 bit. What we are all arguing about here is an arrogant streak from Randy U. He went on vacation and decided none of us have tape libraries anymore because he doesn't. Or that we don't need older projects, because once his vacation tape is done, who cares about the old project. Or Randy doesn't need to send his vacation videos to a sound post-house - a few fixes and tweaks in FCPX and the family will love it!

That's the lunacy. He chose not to understand the complicated part of the biz. Literally ignored it - and he decided for us. He didn't attempt to fully understand it. That's the definition of narcissism, not having empathy for those you deal with.

The fight here isn't about new features and 64 bit - I am the biggest booster of the new engine and certain other aspects like compositing groups of clips. It is what Randy left out (that he didn't have to). That is the crux of the problem. It's the narcissism of one guy. At least Steve Jobs is generally right, more times than wrong!

manu chao
Jun 26, 2011, 02:25 PM
The other option is to just switch to Adobe and get CS 5.5 Master Collection or Avid MC, which a lot of people are planning for unless Apple makes some kind of extreme public announcement on a major path change SOON. At this point it's in the same category as iPhone antenna issue
So, what impact did 'Antennagate' had on iPhone 4 sales? If the backlash against FCP X has the same consequences, I don't think Apple needs to be worried. In particular since Apple did not actually had to do anything besides public handholding to 'solve' the antenna issue.

TMay
Jun 26, 2011, 02:33 PM
Actually, I disagree. I don't think Apple has made a conscious decision to abandon the professional market, but they are taking a big gamble about the next step forward. So as to not cross post, I'll reference my own perspective on this here:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1177352

I think they are gambling on how to leapfrog to the next generation of core software technology for video editing. They've made a conscious effort to make an abrupt transition, which may backfire. But it is in Apple's DNA to push the envelope in this way. However, I do feel for those professionals who have pushed for the use of FCP, yet now feel abandoned. It must be quite gut wrenching.

(more paragraphs please!)

I have to concur, and frankly, I can't see that Apple had a choice. Look how long it took to wean even themselves of carbon for cocoa technology.

FCP 7 is deprecated. There isn't any other way to look at it. For those that need support of what is rapidly becoming legacy technology (film, et al), now would be a good time to abandon Apple and look elsewhere.

On the other hand, FCPX will be attract tens of thousands of dslr wielding amateurs on the way to becoming the next RED wielding Ridley Scott or Quentin Tarentino.

Either way, Apple has demonstrated time and again that they will put a bullet in old technology, and that is what has happened.

Let Avid and Adobe absorb that legacy market, if that is to be, but I suspect that the future will not be kind to them for that.

charlituna
Jun 26, 2011, 02:37 PM
At this point we'd need someone like Donald Trump sitting at a table and saying: "you're fired!". Who do we fire for such an epic disaster? I wouldn't exclude having to fire Steve Jobs again. After all he pushed for Imovie 08 which nobody wants.

In order to call this an 'epic disaster' we would need to know the number of actual sales, how many folks were unhappy versus happy or satisfied enough with the point zero release to wait and see what happens.

We would also need to know how many folks are actually impacted by the lack of any given missing feature etc. Rather than just mad that something really cool that they never used and don't really need but liked having around for the cool points.

Point of fact, us truly pro editors know now to expect much when a software is completely revamped. We know that the first couple of months will be learning the new system while the bugs are fixed and features come back on line. We keep our old software going in the meantime so we can keep meeting deadlines and making money. We also rarely trash the disks etc for our old software in case we revisit former projects. I myself can restore back to my Final Cut Pro 3 set up.

We aren't really impacted by any of this because we are pretty much all in the midst of projects and only a total moron switches something mid project. So we will be on our FCP7, Avid etc for a while longer. Possibly as much as a year from now by which time FCPX will likely be in a much better place


I remember all the "oohs and aahs" at the Final Cut Supermeet in April when Apple first unveiled FCPX. I watched that entire video. There were so many new time-saving features. And the people in the audience were going crazy.

I would be curious to see the comments from those that were all over the blogosphere praising the preview now that they have the product in their hands.

morningsong
Jun 26, 2011, 02:47 PM
One of the things people bashing the pros miss is that most are also HUGE apple fans. Many of us in the industry have spent the past however many years, fighting engineering and IT departments just trying to get mac products INTO the workplace. Last year, my facility did a $500,000 upgrade for post. Getting FC rooms up and going was a battle...but something me and a few of my editors felt was the right path.

One of my editors bought FCPX on release day and has deemed none of our workflow will be supported out of the gate. That is more than disappointing.

Again, I'm platform independent at my facility, so it doesn't matter much (we have 4 online rooms, 4 avid bays and 2 final cut rooms)...but as an apple fan, it sucks that after years of arguing the positive side of OSX, the engineers get the last laugh.

Those throwing stones at people venting should give a little slack here, someday you might be the one getting the shaft.

butterfly0fdoom
Jun 26, 2011, 02:55 PM
Could you imagine if they hadn't have redone iMovie when they did, what it would be like now? disastrous. We'd all have core i5 macs, DSLR HD footage and a clunky piece of bloatware that was written 10 years ago that still cant place a line of text over a video and play it back in real time. THIS would be a big problem. It'd still be 32 bit and wouldn't use all of our ram. It wouldn't use openCL or GCD or any of the modern technologies, what... so people could still be content using something they were familiar with 3 years ago?

iMovie isn't 64-bit and doesn't use GCD.

Jerome Morrow
Jun 26, 2011, 02:56 PM
One of my editors bought FCPX on release day and has deemed none of our workflow will be supported out of the gate. That is more than disappointing.



Was he expecting to use the next day or week or even month? I'd like to think NO, but if he did than ...

charlituna
Jun 26, 2011, 02:59 PM
Digital downloads are a step forward, yes.
Discontinuing DVD sales today is not.

See the point?

Thing is, the only way to really get folks to change is to force it. So long as DVDs are still around, folks will demand them. What 'you' want won't matter. But if you take the DVDs out of the game then folks will have to change or live without

mdriftmeyer
Jun 26, 2011, 03:21 PM
At this point we'd need someone like Donald Trump sitting at a table and saying: "you're fired!". Who do we fire for such an epic disaster? I wouldn't exclude having to fire Steve Jobs again. After all he pushed for Imovie 08 which nobody wants.

How about you fire yourself. When the next point update arrives with an extensive array of additions and improved missing features will you continue to whine about this product? I'm better you will.

iBug2
Jun 26, 2011, 03:26 PM
You are right, calling yourself a pro doesn't make you one - and by that logic, Final Cut Pro X isn't a professional app just because it has the word "pro" in it's name. Pro would mean it is for people who get paid using the software, so by definition it is not for the casual or amateur user. That is one issue why people are angry they co-opted the name pro. 'Final Cut Home X' might have worked as a name, 'Final Cut Single User X,' or 'iMovie Pro X' - any of these names and there would be no controversy!


Actually there would be. FCP X can be used by a lot of people who make money out of editing. This has been pointed out even by the most violent criticizers of this app. It just isn't ready for all of them. So by your definition, this is a pro app.

Or if your definition requires for an app to be usable for absolutely every single professional in a market, then FCP 7 wasn't a pro app either, because many people were using Avid MC due to certain missing features on FCP 7.

If a pro app needs to satisfy everyone, then probably only Avid came close, but if it needs to satisfy some pro's, then both FCP 7 and FCP X are pro apps.

NAG
Jun 26, 2011, 03:26 PM
Thing is, the only way to really get folks to change is to force it. So long as DVDs are still around, folks will demand them. What 'you' want won't matter. But if you take the DVDs out of the game then folks will have to change or live without

It really does read exactly like what happened to floppies and to some extent ADB and SCSI. Apple dropping ADB and SCSI was also another claimed "huge middle finger to the pros" (at least they said that at the time). Maybe people who think Apple is actively hating them (whether they identify themselves as pro or not) should take deep breath and look at the situation. Nah, it is much more fun to rant on internet forums and blogs!

iphonepiephone
Jun 26, 2011, 03:41 PM
It really does read exactly like what happened to floppies and to some extent ADB and SCSI. Apple dropping ADB and SCSI was also another claimed "huge middle finger to the pros" (at least they said that at the time). Maybe people who think Apple is actively hating them (whether they identify themselves as pro or not) should take deep breath and look at the situation. Nah, it is much more fun to rant on internet forums and blogs!

LOL @ SCSI - never did quite work out all that crazyness with cables and terminating resistors... what a nightmare, and GREAT thing to abandon! :)

Rodimus Prime
Jun 26, 2011, 04:05 PM
It really does read exactly like what happened to floppies and to some extent ADB and SCSI. Apple dropping ADB and SCSI was also another claimed "huge middle finger to the pros" (at least they said that at the time). Maybe people who think Apple is actively hating them (whether they identify themselves as pro or not) should take deep breath and look at the situation. Nah, it is much more fun to rant on internet forums and blogs!

Apple dropped the floppy before their was a good replacement for them.
At the time Apple dropped the floppy please tell me how you would move small files between computers. Oh wait that was done by floppy.

Remember at the time Blank CD were 2-3 bucks a piece IF you could find them. On top of that burners at the time were several 100 bucks so again they were very costly.
Flash drives did not existed so that was not an option.
Email at the time was text only and file attachment was not easy to do if all all. These were the days of dial up. Download speeds was at 10 mins per meg. Inbox sizes were maxing out at 1-2 megs.

So please tell me how would you transfer files between computers?

No one is arguing that floppies were on their way out. We could all see they would be phased out. Optical media still has years left in it. We do not have a suitable replacement really in place yet. We do not have the bandwidth really out there to download those files. Until we get down to 1 gig per min in terms of download speed it just is not happening. Right best case is 10 min per gig. When that gets down to 1/10 the speed for cheap price then yes we optical media will be dead but until then not going to happen.

As for SCSI I believe those are still used today but more in server environments. Something Apple has not really had any real operation in for years so not really an issue there.

Now Apple really should offer ESata ports at the least or Esata/USB since those plug directly into the SATA controller on a computer and you basically get the speed of it being a native hard drive. Apple lags in those departments.

slackpacker
Jun 26, 2011, 04:15 PM
As an owner of Final Cut X this is going to be an interesting ride

ryanlaing
Jun 26, 2011, 04:25 PM
Jesus, I just read some of the most upvoted comments on from the front page of this article.. The bias for apple on this site is disgusting. People saying 'get used to it, it's just differnt, its the same guy who made fcp7, people would love fcpx if they never had fcp7, i'm a pro and i'm loving this.'

Everything here is mostly positive. These are NOT the average opinions of people who legitimately know and use Final Cut.

Honestly, none of you have any idea what you're talking about. I really think there a bunch of apple fans on this site hiding from the truth. This program is good for the average user. There are some needed improvements. But compared to FCP7, it is just missing too many features and the interface has been dumbed down too far to be put in a pro category. Pro as in professional and pro as in productive. There are simply too many limitations.

People who truly take advantage of the complexity of FCP will not welcome the new version. Simple as that. People who are learning FCPX as their first form of editing will be missing out on much of what has become necessary to know. It has a solid core to build from, and I really hope Apple will. But I'm genuinely worried they are leaving true FCP behind.

linuxcooldude
Jun 26, 2011, 04:33 PM
Now Apple really should offer ESata ports at the least or Esata/USB since those plug directly into the SATA controller on a computer and you basically get the speed of it being a native hard drive. Apple lags in those departments.

a $19.00 dollar bracket is all you need.

http://eshop.macsales.com/item/NewerTech/MPQXES2/

H. Flower
Jun 26, 2011, 04:38 PM
If you didn't do that, then what's your complaint about Apple "replacing" FCP7? Your existing FCP7 didn't magically break when FCPX was released, did it?

Final Cut 7 is no longer supported by Apple. Do you understand the implications/consequences of that, especially in the context of a business?

Answer: No, because if you did, you wouldn't have made the comment to begin with.