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MacRumors
Jun 27, 2011, 09:38 AM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/27/apple-set-to-shift-from-samsung-to-tsmc-for-a6-chip-production-next-year/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/06/tsmc-150x117.jpg

Back in March, a report (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/03/09/apple-shifting-a5-production-from-samsung-to-tsmc/) suggested that Apple was preparing to shift production of its A5 system-on-a-chip for the iPad 2 from Samsung to Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC) (http://www.tsmc.com/english/default.htm), a deal that was claimed to span multiple generations of chips and would reduce Apple's reliance on competitor and legal foe Samsung for iOS device components. Early examinations of iPad 2 chips did, however, reveal that Samsung continued to be Apple's supplier for the brains of the popular tablet device.

Talk of TSMC striking a deal with Apple revived (http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20110624PB201.html) late last week, with Merrill Lynch analyst Dan Heyler claiming that the chip manufacturer stands a good chance of winning orders for Apple's next-generation "A6" chip next year. And today Ars Technica weighs in (http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2011/06/apple-to-move-arm-soc-production-away-from-samsung-in-2012.ars), sharing word from a "plugged-in source" that chatter about an Apple-TSMC deal is "growing deafening".While Apple continues to source components from Samsung for its mobile devices under contracts that were likely signed more than a year ago, Apple presented a huge pile of evidence that Samsung was attempting to copy at least some of the secret sauce that made its iPhone and iPad so successful. So Apple very likely sees moving production to a non-competitor as a strategic business move.

Dan Heyler, a semiconductor analyst with Merrill Lynch in Taipei, told the China-based Commercial Times newspaper on Friday that TSMC will most likely be producing "A6" processors for Apple, a next-generation ARM-based design, in 2012. That jibes with what Ars has heard from a plugged-in source -- that the chatter on the foundry grapevine about an impending Apple/TSMC deal is growing deafening.Apple has surpassed Sony to become Samsung's biggest customer (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/02/14/apple-set-to-become-samsungs-biggest-customer-with-7-8-billion-in-contracts/), making for an uneasy relationship that has seen Apple and Samsung have a strong reliance on each other even as Apple has been pursuing legal action against Samsung, claiming that Samsung has copied Apple's designs with its own products.

Article Link: Apple Set to Shift From Samsung to TSMC for 'A6' Chip Production Next Year? (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/27/apple-set-to-shift-from-samsung-to-tsmc-for-a6-chip-production-next-year/)



dethmaShine
Jun 27, 2011, 09:40 AM
Double blow. Fair enough.

wordoflife
Jun 27, 2011, 09:44 AM
We're already talking about A6?

ranReloaded
Jun 27, 2011, 09:44 AM
I can see it already...


Suck it

Steve
Sent from my A6-powered iPad 3

ArtOfWarfare
Jun 27, 2011, 09:44 AM
How's Samsung's stock doing on those news, or is the company not public? (Am I even using the right terms? IDK, I don't invest in stocks at all.)

FriarNurgle
Jun 27, 2011, 09:47 AM
That's a huge shift in stock allocation. Amazing these companies can handle these fluctuation.

NebulaClash
Jun 27, 2011, 09:48 AM
Apple has surpassed Sony to become Samsung's biggest customer, making for an uneasy relationship that has seen Apple and Samsung have a strong reliance on each other even as Apple has been pursuing legal action against Samsung, claiming that Samsung has copied Apple's designs with its own products.


Nothing uneasy about it. I think one of the biggest misconceptions people have about the law is that it is personal. It's not. We get upset when we hear about these lawsuits and we assume the companies involved are as upset as we are. They're not. This is just how business is done in today's world. It's a shame, but it's the way it is.

So while it would be nice to not have to deal with the legal expenses that come with this way of doing business, I have little doubt that Samsung and Apple get along just fine. Their legal teams are busy arguing against each other in court, but even they probably share a beer afterward. Meanwhile the executives are quite busy making deals with each other.

macduke
Jun 27, 2011, 09:52 AM
Samsung was in a win-win situation. But now with losing Apple as a customer, along with the fact that Android sales are starting to level off due to Apple expanding onto new carriers like Verizon and staying competitive with innovations such as free iCloud services, they are soon going to start feeling the hurt. Especially if they end up having to actually make their own phone designs following the court ruling, lol.

But they will still have their TV market, am I right?

*LTD*
Jun 27, 2011, 09:54 AM
I'd love to witness the "exchange of words" between the management of the semiconductor division and the mobile phone division behind closed doors.

Losing your biggest customer is not cool at all.

igazza
Jun 27, 2011, 09:54 AM
more importantly, what will the A6 bring to the table...

MyAccount
Jun 27, 2011, 09:55 AM
Striking a deal with Intel, who is supposedly willing, would've been better. TSMC is great (they manufacture AMD Radeon graphics cards) but not much different from Samsung.

*LTD*
Jun 27, 2011, 09:57 AM
more importantly, what will the A6 bring to the table...

You'll see a significant jump in capability. Apple will be altering their relationship with Intel at some point. It's going to happen.

cmaier
Jun 27, 2011, 10:02 AM
Striking a deal with Intel, who is supposedly willing, would've been better. TSMC is great (they manufacture AMD Radeon graphics cards) but not much different from Samsung.

Intel's processed is optimized for higher speed parts. Using them would be a mistake. From experience, I can tell you that a
company that sells its own parts and allows others to use its fab is going to optimize things for its own use, and is going to prioritize its own parts.

cmaier
Jun 27, 2011, 10:02 AM
You'll see a significant jump in capability. Apple will be altering their relationship with Intel at some point. It's going to happen.

If you are implying ARM macs, nope.

AppleScruff1
Jun 27, 2011, 10:06 AM
Samsung was in a win-win situation. But now with losing Apple as a customer, along with the fact that Android sales are starting to level off due to Apple expanding onto new carriers like Verizon and staying competitive with innovations such as free iCloud services, they are soon going to start feeling the hurt. Especially if they end up having to actually make their own phone designs following the court ruling, lol.

But they will still have their TV market, am I right?

When did Android phone sales level off?

justinfreid
Jun 27, 2011, 10:08 AM
If you are implying ARM macs, nope.

I have a counterpoint regarding ARM-based Macs: yup.

dethmaShine
Jun 27, 2011, 10:09 AM
Quote:



Suck it

Steve
Sent from my A6-powered iPad 3

Reply


Don't let the door hit ya in the ass

CEO & Vice chairman of Samsung yoon woo lee
Sent from my Exynos powered SG3

Samsung was in a win-win situation. But now with losing Apple as a customer, along with the fact that Android sales are starting to level off due to Apple expanding onto new carriers like Verizon and staying competitive with innovations such as free iCloud services, they are soon going to start feeling the hurt. Especially if they end up having to actually make their own phone designs following the court ruling, lol.

Android is still the fastest growing OS by far and Iphone on Verizon has been an embarrasment for everyone involved so far, but lets not let facts get in the way of your delusional Apple worship.

New to forums? Please use the quote tag properly and then misguide people with false facts.

Regards

deth

bryanl
Jun 27, 2011, 10:13 AM
One thing that isn't often mentioned is that Apple's chips A4/A5 aren't that much different than other ARM based chips in the same generation. They just have a cooler name. We have to remember than when the A6 is released, there will be multiple other ARM chips with roughly the same capabilities being produced by Nvidia, TI, Samsung, and Qualcomm.

Sitting back on the sidelines, this whole saga is pretty entertaining. Huge corps with huge cash reserves are battling it out, while we get excited and impassioned. Little do we understand is fact that is what is going on is most likely par for the course. No wonder these businesses have so many lawyers. This just gives them something to do all day.

Jcoz
Jun 27, 2011, 10:13 AM
Android is still the fastest growing OS by far and Iphone on Verizon has been an embarrasment for everyone involved so far, but lets not let facts get in the way of your delusional Apple worship.

An embarrasment? Android lost market share in the US for the first time in 2 years in part because of the iPhone on Verizon......with a year-old phone.

And Android is not actually the fastest growing OS in general...they are still the fastest growing mobile PHONE OS....but iOS goes on more than just smartphones.

Pretty sure iOS devices are still quite a bit higher in number than Android devices....last I saw to the tune of about 2:1.

*LTD*
Jun 27, 2011, 10:14 AM
When did Android phone sales level off?

Android lost some share recently. Not sure in which market, though it seems to be US. It's being attributed to the Verizon iPhone.

http://www.electronista.com/articles/11/05/30/nielsen.hints.android.has.stopped.growing/

Thunderhawks
Jun 27, 2011, 10:19 AM
"that Samsung was attempting to copy at least some of the secret sauce that made its iPhone and iPad so successful"

Watch out Apple, you and Samsung may be sued by McDonalds for using that "Secret Sauce"!

derek1984
Jun 27, 2011, 10:21 AM
A6 will bring retina in the iPad for 2012.

KnightWRX
Jun 27, 2011, 10:21 AM
Sitting back on the sidelines, this whole saga is pretty entertaining. Huge corps with huge cash reserves are battling it out, while we get excited and impassioned. Little do we understand is fact that is what is going on is most likely par for the course. No wonder these businesses have so many lawyers. This just gives them something to do all day.

These lawsuits are actually part of negotiation tactics for contract renewals usually.

A6 will bring retina in the iPad for 2012.

What does a processor have to do with a pixel density at a given viewing distance ?

RonWayne
Jun 27, 2011, 10:21 AM
They're chosing TSMC because that company's logo is clearly superior to Samsung's, right?

orthorim
Jun 27, 2011, 10:21 AM
Android is still the fastest growing OS by far and Iphone on Verizon has been an embarrasment for everyone involved so far, but lets not let facts get in the way of your delusional Apple worship.

Yeah. Who wouldn't be embarrassed to have the best selling phone on Verizon? Oh, wait....

The move makes perfect sense for Apple. Whereas, using their toughest competitor in the mobile phone market as manufacturer really doesn't...

KnightWRX
Jun 27, 2011, 10:22 AM
The move makes perfect sense for Apple. Whereas, using their toughest competitor in the mobile phone market as manufacturer really doesn't...

Except when that competitor is one of the best parts manufacturer around for certain parts you need to make your wonder phone.

Thunderhawks
Jun 27, 2011, 10:24 AM
Android lost some share recently. Not sure in which market, though it seems to be US. It's being attributed to the Verizon iPhone.

http://www.electronista.com/articles/11/05/30/nielsen.hints.android.has.stopped.growing/

Android will IMO be the major player if it isn't already. Maybe some lags here and there.

When you get buy on get one free phones or totally free phones and it all works who cares what they run as long as everything works?

In the who is ahead race there is always a time delay.

Starting July ios5 may be ahead and by September Android will have copied the ios 5 ideas they deem good into Android.

Apple does the same the other way around (Notifications)

Not every creative idea needs to be restricted to ONE company:-)

*LTD*
Jun 27, 2011, 10:25 AM
They're chosing TSMC because that company's logo is clearly superior to Samsung's, right?

No, it's because Samsung is otherwise a competitor to Apple and the two companies seems to be having a difficult time keep the semicon and mobile divisions separate. There's a bit of a conflict there.

hcho3
Jun 27, 2011, 10:25 AM
Samsung is going down...
Apple is too powerful right now even for Samsung.

pohl
Jun 27, 2011, 10:25 AM
They're chosing TSMC because that company's logo is clearly superior to Samsung's, right?

No doubt. It looks like a logo I would have seen in my peripheral vision as I was furiously typing in a Level II BASIC source listing into my TRS-80 Model I out of an issue of 80 Micro magazine.

Domalais
Jun 27, 2011, 10:26 AM
I can see it already...

No...

I have altered the deal, pray I do not alter it any further.

Steve
Sent from my A6-powered iPad 3

*LTD*
Jun 27, 2011, 10:28 AM
Samsung is going down...
Apple is too powerful right now even for Samsung.

Apple is certainly powerful, and likely has no shortage of suitors waiting in the wings, ready to supply parts. However, it's not always easy to find the right supplier, in terms of the necessary tech, quality, and production volume. Sometimes it's spread out between more than one.

But when you're Apple and your products are in insane demand, you're in a very good position in terms of the directions in which you can move.

No...

Brilliant. :D

akm3
Jun 27, 2011, 10:31 AM
How's Samsung's stock doing on those news, or is the company not public? (Am I even using the right terms? IDK, I don't invest in stocks at all.)

You should start investing, or at least learning about it. It's one of the only ways to have a shot at a real retirement. Buying Apple products is one of the easiest ways to ensure you won't.

hcho3
Jun 27, 2011, 10:38 AM
Apple is certainly powerful, and likely has no shortage of suitors waiting in the wings, ready to supply parts. However, it's not always easy to find the right supplier, in terms of the necessary tech, quality, and production volume. Sometimes it's spread out between more than one.

But when you're Apple and your products are in insane demand, you're in a very good position in terms of the directions in which you can move.



Brilliant. :D

If you look at Samsung Electronic's last quarter report, you will find out that their profits are seriously depending on supplying and selling parts. Samsung's share fell more than 15%-20% this year because their sales are not doing well compare to last year including Televisions, Tablets and laptops. If apple moves away from Samsung and sides with other companies, then their shares will take a serious hit. I am pulling my money away from Samsung.

shompa
Jun 27, 2011, 10:46 AM
One thing that isn't often mentioned is that Apple's chips A4/A5 aren't that much different than other ARM based chips in the same generation. They just have a cooler name. We have to remember than when the A6 is released, there will be multiple other ARM chips with roughly the same capabilities being produced by Nvidia, TI, Samsung, and Qualcomm.

Sitting back on the sidelines, this whole saga is pretty entertaining. Huge corps with huge cash reserves are battling it out, while we get excited and impassioned. Little do we understand is fact that is what is going on is most likely par for the course. No wonder these businesses have so many lawyers. This just gives them something to do all day.

There is a huge different. Apple have NOVA SIMD extensions in A5. That takes 30% of the die area on the chip.

Tegra 3 will get NOVA extensions.

Since Apple has control over the graphical layer in the OS, they can accelerate it with SIMD code. That is why Apple beats other ARM chips in real world benchmarks. Single core A4 is only 3-8% slower then others 1.2 dual core in web browsing and so on.

Android will never be able to accelerate its graphic since they don't control that layer.

But people are stupid and just look at mhz and how many megapixel a camera have. Both un relevant in real world.

Lochias
Jun 27, 2011, 10:46 AM
Android lost some share recently. Not sure in which market, though it seems to be US. It's being attributed to the Verizon iPhone.

http://www.electronista.com/articles/11/05/30/nielsen.hints.android.has.stopped.growing/

Also:
http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/06/21/needham-androids-market-share-peaked-in-march/

shompa
Jun 27, 2011, 10:50 AM
Android will IMO be the major player if it isn't already. Maybe some lags here and there.

When you get buy on get one free phones or totally free phones and it all works who cares what they run as long as everything works?

In the who is ahead race there is always a time delay.

Starting July ios5 may be ahead and by September Android will have copied the ios 5 ideas they deem good into Android.

Apple does the same the other way around (Notifications)

Not every creative idea needs to be restricted to ONE company:-)


The Notification thing is a myth.
It was available on unlocked Iphones long before Android had a notification application.

Apple hired the person who did the original app for Iphone. So Apple payed to get the idea.

Android is just like PC with Win7. It is good enough. If people never have used an Iphone, they don't know what they are missing and are happy with their 99 dollar phone.

I have never seems such a fanatic following as people who use Android. They scare me.

Bubba Satori
Jun 27, 2011, 11:04 AM
Samsung is going down...
Apple is too powerful right now even for Samsung.

Going down where? :confused:

ma2ha3
Jun 27, 2011, 11:05 AM
too little too late, the korean reverse engineer the chips, and probably able to release their own A5 chip soon.
That is good news, that mean i will be travelling to taiwan more than korea now. I rather go to taiwan, i work with vendor for both company.

shompa
Jun 27, 2011, 11:06 AM
more importantly, what will the A6 bring to the table...

28 nm. Quod core. 1.5ghz-2ghz. 12-16 graphic PowerVR6 cores.

Probably ARM Cortex-A15 cores.

shompa
Jun 27, 2011, 11:07 AM
too little too late, the korean reverse engineer the chips, and probably able to release their own A5 chip soon.
That is good news, that mean i will be travelling to taiwan more than korea now. I rather go to taiwan, i work with vendor for both company.

Why do they need to reverse engineer it since Samsung have an ARM license?

Rodimus Prime
Jun 27, 2011, 11:08 AM
Except when that competitor is one of the best parts manufacturer around for certain parts you need to make your wonder phone.

I think it is funny people acting like this will hurt Samsung. Apple is like 5% of Samsung business. It is safe to bet Samsung will have zero issue replacing that lost considering that those parts are in general shortage. Chances are Samsung could make even more money selling to someone else instead of being undercut by Apple.
Heck it is being spun but it could easily be that Samsung was not willing to as low as Apple demanded in cost and more or less said "There's the door".

Lets see it might be 3 companies that replace that 5% but still no real lost.

cms2
Jun 27, 2011, 11:11 AM
Nothing uneasy about it. I think one of the biggest misconceptions people have about the law is that it is personal. It's not. We get upset when we hear about these lawsuits and we assume the companies involved are as upset as we are. They're not. This is just how business is done in today's world. It's a shame, but it's the way it is.

So while it would be nice to not have to deal with the legal expenses that come with this way of doing business, I have little doubt that Samsung and Apple get along just fine. Their legal teams are busy arguing against each other in court, but even they probably share a beer afterward. Meanwhile the executives are quite busy making deals with each other.

I'm going to have to disagree with you a bit on this one. I'm a business attorney, and I can tell you that while it is true that the lawyers are probably having a beer afterwards, the actual parties rarely understand the concept that the law (and litigation) isn't personal. Of course, I deal with much smaller clients, so it's possible that two sophisticated companies like Apple and Samsung might share your (and my) view that it isn't personal... but I'd be surprised.

I think it's more likely that the two entities have continued working together because a) they're still under contract, and b) they wouldn't be able to transition to new deals fast and painlessly enough to ensure that the supply chain doesn't get hindered. As soon as a) and b) are no longer true, they will both be looking for new partners.

Just my humble opinion, though.

smithrh
Jun 27, 2011, 11:12 AM
I think it is funny people acting like this will hurt Samsung. Apple is like 5% of Samsung business.

If you look at the entire Samsung chaebol it's far far far less than 5%.

Rodimus Prime
Jun 27, 2011, 11:16 AM
If you look at the entire Samsung chaebol it's far far far less than 5%.

true. It would better put like 5% of Samsung semiconducting business.

Apple has a reputations of being very bullish in terms of getting parts. I could easily see Apple walking away from Samsung no matter what the legal matters were. Apple has no problem burning bridges with companies right now. That is fine if you want to get things cheaper just hope you never need them again in the future.

shompa
Jun 27, 2011, 11:16 AM
Intel's processed is optimized for higher speed parts. Using them would be a mistake. From experience, I can tell you that a
company that sells its own parts and allows others to use its fab is going to optimize things for its own use, and is going to prioritize its own parts.

Intel optimized for higher speed?

Just FYI. X86 have never been the fastest CPU.
Look at SPARC, UltraSPARC, IBM Power, powerPC and so on.
IBM sells chips clocked a 5ghz and with 4 cores/16 threads.

Intel is optimized to do IntelX86 chips. They even can't do a fast Itanic chip.

If Intel went crazy and started to sell wafers for other to buy: Intel have great manufacturing technique. But any ARM chip produced by Intel with 3D gates have to be drastically redesigned. Something that takes years, not weeks. Especially since ARM cores are not designed for it.

H2SO4
Jun 27, 2011, 11:17 AM
Android is still the fastest growing OS by far and Iphone on Verizon has been an embarrasment for everyone involved so far, but lets not let facts get in the way of your delusional Apple worship.

I've not actually seen the figures but the size of the OS is not directly linked the hardware growing at the same rate. Remember that. But it is difficult to compare Apples with Apples.

wovel
Jun 27, 2011, 11:18 AM
I think it is funny people acting like this will hurt Samsung. Apple is like 5% of Samsung business. It is safe to bet Samsung will have zero issue replacing that lost considering that those parts are in general shortage. Chances are Samsung could make even more money selling to someone else instead of being undercut by Apple.
Heck it is being spun but it could easily be that Samsung was not willing to as low as Apple demanded in cost and more or less said "There's the door".

Lets see it might be 3 companies that replace that 5% but still no real lost.

5% may be high, but it is more revenue then say their entire mobile phone division..Apple is not easily replaced, who will replace them as a CPU fab customer? Maybe Samsung itself will use that capacity in 10 years.

shompa
Jun 27, 2011, 11:20 AM
If you look at the entire Samsung chaebol it's far far far less than 5%.

All parts that Apple buys from Samsung this year is valued between 7.5 billion to 10 billion dollars.

This is about 7.5% of Samsungs revenue.

Of course it is a huge blow to Samsung if Apple leaves.

For example AMD: They have a revenue of 6 billion per year. Apple ALONE buys more parts from Samsung then AMD has in revenue.

shompa
Jun 27, 2011, 11:21 AM
No, it's because Samsung is otherwise a competitor to Apple and the two companies seems to be having a difficult time keep the semicon and mobile divisions separate. There's a bit of a conflict there.

Samsung has no 28nm line. They cant manufacture A6 cpus.

wovel
Jun 27, 2011, 11:27 AM
Android is still the fastest growing OS by far and Iphone on Verizon has been an embarrasment for everyone involved so far, but lets not let facts get in the way of your delusional Apple worship.


I assume by the name and the date you are a known troll and you already realize both of your statements are lies...

chrmjenkins
Jun 27, 2011, 11:28 AM
I don't know too much about the particulars of Samsung's fabs, but it shouldn't be too different to switch to TSMC. Samsung was just a transitional partner as Apple went with them initially and wanted to gradually take ownership of their design as they went along.

Intel's processed is optimized for higher speed parts. Using them would be a mistake. From experience, I can tell you that a
company that sells its own parts and allows others to use its fab is going to optimize things for its own use, and is going to prioritize its own parts.

Without question, but I think the particulars of ARM designs on an Intel process is going to be something only people with intimate knowledge of both Intel and ARM IPs and processes is going to know for certain. I don't think anyone can challenge the fact that Intel is years ahead of their competitors when it comes to fab process, but I think the industry is marching inexorably towards a new ISA as people's majority use devices switch to handhelds and tablets. Intel can try and stymy the progress with offerings like Atom and Medfield, but I still think it's going to be an ARM world for quite some time. Given that, I think there is some value to Intel opening up their fabs to ARM designers. The handset market is extremely competitive, and with handset manufacturers getting hundreds in subsidies from carriers, they're going to be willing to pay premium price for higher performance SoCs compared to what TSMC can offer them. The central question is how much of a threat Intel is posing to its own bread-and-butter x86 market and how much it's cannibalizing Atom/Medfield etc. sales. I'm going to wager not much as that is the general direction of the market, but I'm interested to see what happens, regardless.

diamond.g
Jun 27, 2011, 11:33 AM
Intel optimized for higher speed?

Just FYI. X86 have never been the fastest CPU.
Look at SPARC, UltraSPARC, IBM Power, powerPC and so on.
IBM sells chips clocked a 5ghz and with 4 cores/16 threads.

Intel is optimized to do IntelX86 chips. They even can't do a fast Itanic chip.

If Intel went crazy and started to sell wafers for other to buy: Intel have great manufacturing technique. But any ARM chip produced by Intel with 3D gates have to be drastically redesigned. Something that takes years, not weeks. Especially since ARM cores are not designed for it.

why is it assumed that Intels parts can't run at that speed?

cmaier
Jun 27, 2011, 11:34 AM
I have a counterpoint regarding ARM-based Macs: yup.

There's no benefit to it, so nope.

Intel optimized for higher speed?

Just FYI. X86 have never been the fastest CPU.
Look at SPARC, UltraSPARC, IBM Power, powerPC and so on.

I designed powerpc and ultrasparc microprocessors. One was fabbed by hitachi, the other by Texas Instruments. What's your point? (BTW, I also designed many x86 processors, albeit for AMD, not Intel).


IBM sells chips clocked a 5ghz and with 4 cores/16 threads.


Yes, IBM has nice fabs. Again, what does that have to do with how Intel's fabs are tuned?


Intel is optimized to do IntelX86 chips. They even can't do a fast Itanic chip.


This is gibberish. You don't tune a fab for an architecture. You tune a fab so the transistors are either fast and leaky or slow and power-conserving.


If Intel went crazy and started to sell wafers for other to buy: Intel have great manufacturing technique. But any ARM chip produced by Intel with 3D gates have to be drastically redesigned. Something that takes years, not weeks. Especially since ARM cores are not designed for it.

More gibberish. It doesn't take years. And none of the high-end ARM suppliers are using hard cores, so it doesn't matter if the "ARM cores are designed for it." You take your soft core and plug it into synopsys with a cell library based on finfets and you're done. But these transistors (i.e. intel's process) are not tuned for the types of devices apple is interested in, so it's moot.

res1233
Jun 27, 2011, 11:36 AM
All parts that Apple buys from Samsung this year is valued between 7.5 billion to 10 billion dollars.

This is about 7.5% of Samsungs revenue.

Of course it is a huge blow to Samsung if Apple leaves.

For example AMD: They have a revenue of 6 billion per year. Apple ALONE buys more parts from Samsung then AMD has in revenue.

Yep. It's not like there are a bunch of other companies out there as big as Apple waiting to fill their shoes as soon as they jump ship to TSMC. Even if someone does fill their shoes, that's still lost revenue, because both Apple and those new guys would be buying from Samsung if Apple hadn't left. Now is not the time to buy Samsung stock, that much is sure.

why is it assumed that Intels parts can't run at that speed?

I've never heard of any Intel CPUs being overclocked to 5ghz, and the amount of threads that can run on one core is a design thing, so... The only reason Intel has such a gigantic share of the market is because of its very old Wintel partnership. There are better CPUs out there, but not for x86.

ny3ranger
Jun 27, 2011, 11:49 AM
Striking a deal with Intel, who is supposedly willing, would've been better. TSMC is great (they manufacture AMD Radeon graphics cards) but not much different from Samsung.

What do you mean not much different from Samsung? I think Apples only reason for the move is because Samsung is a supplier of components as well as manufacturer of end products. If they were only the former like TSMC then Apple wouldn't have a problem with Samsung.

The only way for Samsung to keep Apple is to stop producing smartphones. But I don't know what their profit is from their smartphones. If its significant or they see a potential then they would say bye bye to apple. If not then they would stop producing phones.

ny3ranger
Jun 27, 2011, 11:53 AM
Does anyone know what their revenue is in their smartphone division?

All parts that Apple buys from Samsung this year is valued between 7.5 billion to 10 billion dollars.

This is about 7.5% of Samsungs revenue.

Of course it is a huge blow to Samsung if Apple leaves.

For example AMD: They have a revenue of 6 billion per year. Apple ALONE buys more parts from Samsung then AMD has in revenue.

Thunderhawks
Jun 27, 2011, 11:56 AM
The Notification thing is a myth.
It was available on unlocked Iphones long before Android had a notification application.

Apple hired the person who did the original app for Iphone. So Apple payed to get the idea.

Android is just like PC with Win7. It is good enough. If people never have used an Iphone, they don't know what they are missing and are happy with their 99 dollar phone.

I have never seems such a fanatic following as people who use Android. They scare me.

If you meant me by Android fanatic, far from it. Apple since 1984 , never looked back. Just not Apple clouded enough to forget about checking reality.

.......but Android is more widely spread because of all the promos etc.

As for the old chicken or egg discussion, everybody copies from everybody IMO. Call it : Improving on existing knowledge/design etc.

That's how humans progressed and inventions were made. You see an idea that gives you a better idea etc.etc.
Only today lawyers get involved more and more.

Agree with you that most consumers are not checking things out.

$ 99 with a free second phone is enticing and doesn't require too much thought if it's what you were looking for..

Rodimus Prime
Jun 27, 2011, 12:02 PM
Intel optimized for higher speed?

Just FYI. X86 have never been the fastest CPU.
Look at SPARC, UltraSPARC, IBM Power, powerPC and so on.
IBM sells chips clocked a 5ghz and with 4 cores/16 threads.

Intel is optimized to do IntelX86 chips. They even can't do a fast Itanic chip.

If Intel went crazy and started to sell wafers for other to buy: Intel have great manufacturing technique. But any ARM chip produced by Intel with 3D gates have to be drastically redesigned. Something that takes years, not weeks. Especially since ARM cores are not designed for it.
Clock speed is not everything.

Just look at intel for example look at how their clock speed dropped like a rock compared to the past. They were pushing 4 ghz at one point and my 1.6 ghz computer now would beat the crap out of it.
Or you can look at for example the AMD64 3000+ that at the time was beating the crap out of a intel P4 running at over 3.2 ghz.

Yep. It's not like there are a bunch of other companies out there as big as Apple waiting to fill their shoes as soon as they jump ship to TSMC. Even if someone does fill their shoes, that's still lost revenue, because both Apple and those new guys would be buying from Samsung if Apple hadn't left. Now is not the time to buy Samsung stock, that much is sure.

Umm so instead of 1 company replacing Apple you have 3 or 4. The semi conductors are in short supply right now and generally there is a shortage. Apple is very replaceable in the market. I would not be surpised in the least that it was more Samsung refused to go as low of a price as Apple demanded and said their is the door. They will have no issue replacing Apple and chances are for higher profit.


I've never heard of any Intel CPUs being overclocked to 5ghz, and the amount of threads that can run on one core is a design thing, so... The only reason Intel has such a gigantic share of the market is because of its very old Wintel partnership. There are better CPUs out there, but not for x86.

Google it. THere are a few out there. I know they did it back in like 05 06 and since then have pushed it higher.

justinfreid
Jun 27, 2011, 12:07 PM
There's no benefit to it, so nope.

I respect that you designed microprocessors, but it doesn't take an engineer to imagine a MacPad type device designed around an A(x) processor.
I bet that in the next few years there'll be an ARM based Apple product with the word "Mac" in it.
Pick a cutoff date, we'll both add it to our iCal, and we'll see who's right.

AppleScruff1
Jun 27, 2011, 12:17 PM
Android lost some share recently. Not sure in which market, though it seems to be US. It's being attributed to the Verizon iPhone.

http://www.electronista.com/articles/11/05/30/nielsen.hints.android.has.stopped.growing/

This article also says that Apple was down a point too, so how did the Verizon iPhone take away from Android sales when Apple lost a percentage point too? :confused:

pmz
Jun 27, 2011, 12:18 PM
Nice. Frig Samsung, I really hate that company.

Lesser Evets
Jun 27, 2011, 12:20 PM
We're already talking about A6?

Everyone else except MacRumors has been talking about it.
Apple's probably already mapping out A7, A8, and A9.

chrmjenkins
Jun 27, 2011, 12:26 PM
Everyone else except MacRumors has been talking about it.
Apple's probably already mapping out A7, A8, and A9.

I actually doubt they're doing any serious work on A8 or A9.

A6 is likely a 28nm Cortex A9 variant if not a Cortex A15 (eagle) variant and is being designed right now. It can't even tape out until TSMC's 28nm fabs are turned on and mature. A7 is likely a 28nm Cortex A15 chip in the initial planning stages/early development. They may be having initial discussions about the A8, but they don't have any technology to map it to (i.e. they may not even have a process library yet). A9 I doubt is even being talked about yet.

This is all assuming the TSMC shift does happen and Apple keeps a yearly Ax processor release schedule.

sinsin07
Jun 27, 2011, 12:30 PM
Samsung is going down...
Apple is too powerful right now even for Samsung.

Samsung is more than cell phone parts:


The Samsung Group is a multinational conglomerate corporation headquartered in Samsung Town, Seoul, South Korea. The Samsung Group comprises numerous international affiliated businesses, most of them united under the Samsung brand including Samsung Electronics, the world's largest technology company by sales;[3][4] Samsung Heavy Industries, the world's second largest shipbuilder;[5] Samsung Engineering was ranked 35th, Samsung C&T 72nd in a 2009 ranking of 225 global construction firms compiled by the Engineering News-Record, a U.S. construction journal.[6] Samsung Life Insurance was ranked 14th in a 2009 ranking of Fortune Global 500 Industries.[7] Samsung Everland, South Korea's first theme park opened in 1976 as Yongin Farmland. In 2002 it was the fifth most popular theme park in the world, beating out Epcot, Disney MGM and Disney's Animal Kingdom.[8] Cheil Worldwide operates as a subsidiary of Samsung Group[9] and was ranked #19 among the "World's Top 50 Agency Companies" by revenue in 2010.[10] Shilla Hotel, a subsidiary of the Samsung Group, has been ranked #58 among the "2009 World's Best Top 100 Hotels" in the annual reader survey conducted by the prestigious international business magazine, Institutional Investor.[11]

cmaier
Jun 27, 2011, 12:33 PM
I respect that you designed microprocessors, but it doesn't take an engineer to imagine a MacPad type device designed around an A(x) processor.
I bet that in the next few years there'll be an ARM based Apple product with the word "Mac" in it.
Pick a cutoff date, we'll both add it to our iCal, and we'll see who's right.

They may or may not do it, but it's not a good idea. If it's a "Mac" it presumably runs Mac OS X with fat binary support for ARM. If it has rosetta-type support for x86 binaries (even if such thing is possible given copyright/patent issues surrounding x86), applications run that way will be slow and battery-sucking.

As for native ARM apps, keep in mind there really isn't anything inherently "better" about ARM. x86 adds a little more die area and a couple pipe stages in order to support addressing modes and complex instructions that make compiled software execute very efficiently. ARM leaves out complex addressing modes and instructions to shrink the die and leakage current, at the cost of less performance efficiency from compiled software.

MOST of the perceived differences between ARM and x86 (e.g. low power) have a lot more to do with design than architecture (for example use of static rather than dynamic logic, types of flops used, tuning of process, clocking schemes, etc.) These power improvements do not come for free - they cost performance.

I can believe there may be an "iBook" someday running a future iOS that looks a lot like Mac OS X and runs on ARM, but it just doesn't make a lot of technical sense to run Mac OS X on ARM - an ARM that runs fast enough to make it practical won't be all that much more power efficient than a properly tuned and designed x86.

chrmjenkins
Jun 27, 2011, 12:35 PM
...

In my opinion, what shows Samsung's size best is this excerpt.

"Samsung Group accounts for about a fifth of South Korea's total exports.[14] In many domestic industries, Samsung Group is the sole monopoly dominating a single market[citation needed], its revenue as large as some countries' total GDP. In 2006, Samsung Group would have been the 35th largest economy in the world if ranked, larger than that of Argentina.[15]."

They represent over 12% of South Korea's 1.423 trillion GDP.

cmaier
Jun 27, 2011, 12:37 PM
In my opinion, what shows Samsung's size best is this excerpt.

"Samsung Group accounts for about a fifth of South Korea's total exports.[14] In many domestic industries, Samsung Group is the sole monopoly dominating a single market[citation needed], its revenue as large as some countries' total GDP. In 2006, Samsung Group would have been the 35th largest economy in the world if ranked, larger than that of Argentina.[15]."

Having been to Seoul, Samsung's scope is truly tremendous. They are everywhere. I saw a ton of apartment towers with their logo on it. They seem to own or have sold everything in Korea.

chrmjenkins
Jun 27, 2011, 01:04 PM
Having been to Seoul, Samsung's scope is truly tremendous. They are everywhere. I saw a ton of apartment towers with their logo on it. They seem to own or have sold everything in Korea.

Based on the fact that some of their higher ups have been charged with corruption, I'm sure they own things in many facets of the word.

Itakou
Jun 27, 2011, 01:06 PM
Losing your largest customer is a blow no matter how you spin it.

chrmjenkins
Jun 27, 2011, 01:09 PM
Losing your largest customer is a blow no matter how you spin it.

Of course, but Samsung's businesses continue to expand, including their smartphone share in the US. That's only going to further when the Galaxy S2 is released in the US on every carrier, which is one of the best phones out there without question.

justinfreid
Jun 27, 2011, 01:11 PM
They may or may not do it, but it's not a good idea. If it's a "Mac" it presumably runs Mac OS X with fat binary support for ARM. If it has rosetta-type support for x86 binaries (even if such thing is possible given copyright/patent issues surrounding x86), applications run that way will be slow and battery-sucking.

As for native ARM apps, keep in mind there really isn't anything inherently "better" about ARM. x86 adds a little more die area and a couple pipe stages in order to support addressing modes and complex instructions that make compiled software execute very efficiently. ARM leaves out complex addressing modes and instructions to shrink the die and leakage current, at the cost of less performance efficiency from compiled software.

MOST of the perceived differences between ARM and x86 (e.g. low power) have a lot more to do with design than architecture (for example use of static rather than dynamic logic, types of flops used, tuning of process, clocking schemes, etc.) These power improvements do not come for free - they cost performance.

I can believe there may be an "iBook" someday running a future iOS that looks a lot like Mac OS X and runs on ARM, but it just doesn't make a lot of technical sense to run Mac OS X on ARM - an ARM that runs fast enough to make it practical won't be all that much more power efficient than a properly tuned and designed x86.

Woah, so it looks like we agree, and this explanation is a long way from "nope vs. yup", thanks.
Before thinking about the technical elements of ARM vs. x86, I thought about the precedents at play. First, at the 2005 WWDC, Steve Jobs proudly demonstrated that OS X had been, in secret, developed for both PowerPC and x86 and that the company would quickly transition to using that architecture for all of its products. Second, Lion appears to be the beginning of a trend towards unifying the mobile and desktop OS X experience as much as the differences in screen size and input method would allow.
While I don't think there'll be an all out transition from x86 to ARM, I think that unless Intel does relatively better than IBM did in getting more performance per watt, in the medium term, especially with Apple pouring development dollars into iOS and the in-house development of the A series, an ARM powered device with a keyboard and a MacBook Air type form factor makes some sense. It also dovetails with Apple's MO of having more and more control over the devices by creating a reasonable premise for locking this hypothetical device down- it's more iOS than OS X.
Also, this could light a fire under Intel to enhance Atom (or to scrap it and build something altogether better) and to lower the already preferential pricing that Apple receives.

This is of course all speculation from someone who knows much more about Apple's product line than the x86 or ARM instruction pipelines, so, thanks for reading.

chrmjenkins
Jun 27, 2011, 01:15 PM
Woah, so it looks like we agree, and this explanation is a long way from "nope vs. yup", thanks.
Before thinking about the technical elements of ARM vs. x86, I thought about the precedents at play. First, at the 2005 WWDC, Steve Jobs proudly demonstrated that OS X had been, in secret, developed for both PowerPC and x86 and that the company would quickly transition to using that architecture for all of its products. Second, Lion appears to be the beginning of a trend towards unifying the mobile and desktop OS X experience as much as the differences in screen size and input method would allow.
While I don't think there'll be an all out transition from x86 to ARM, I think that unless Intel does relatively better than IBM did in getting more performance per watt, in the medium term, especially with Apple pouring development dollars into iOS and the in-house development of the A series, an ARM powered device with a keyboard and a MacBook Air type form factor makes some sense. It also dovetails with Apple's MO of having more and more control over the devices by creating a reasonable premise for locking this hypothetical device down- it's more iOS than OS X.
Also, this could light a fire under Intel to enhance Atom (or to scrap it and build something altogether better) and to lower the already preferential pricing that Apple receives.

This is of course all speculation from someone who knows much more about Apple's product line than the x86 or ARM instruction pipelines, so, thanks for reading.

There's no question that ARM processors are going to start rivaling desktop processors, at the very least Atom processors, and do so with less power consumption.

Given that startups like Caldexa are already developing quad-core iterations of the Cortex-A9, one can easily envision that a 4-core Cortex-A15 will shatter the 40K DMIPS barrier, putting it within touching distance of the AMD Phenom II X4 940 Black Edition which reached almost 43K DMIPS running at 3GHz.

http://www.itproportal.com/2011/03/14/exclusive-arm-cortex-a15-40-cent-faster-cortex-a9/

carmenodie
Jun 27, 2011, 01:18 PM
That's a huge shift in stock allocation. Amazing these companies can handle these fluctuation.
Wall street is a combination of real money and BS!
If wall street was told to trade its current value into cash, it couldn't.

Glideslope
Jun 27, 2011, 01:30 PM
They're chosing TSMC because that company's logo is clearly superior to Samsung's, right?

TSMC= Totally Sublime Manufacturing Complex. :apple:

Rocketman
Jun 27, 2011, 01:32 PM
Arstechnica.com has a comment thread on this as well:

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2011/06/apple-to-move-arm-soc-production-away-from-samsung-in-2012.ars?comments=1&p=21797561#comment-21797561

Rocketman

diamond.g
Jun 27, 2011, 01:40 PM
Yep. It's not like there are a bunch of other companies out there as big as Apple waiting to fill their shoes as soon as they jump ship to TSMC. Even if someone does fill their shoes, that's still lost revenue, because both Apple and those new guys would be buying from Samsung if Apple hadn't left. Now is not the time to buy Samsung stock, that much is sure.



I've never heard of any Intel CPUs being overclocked to 5ghz, and the amount of threads that can run on one core is a design thing, so... The only reason Intel has such a gigantic share of the market is because of its very old Wintel partnership. There are better CPUs out there, but not for x86.

Oh it is possible to clock them high (http://www.overclock.net/intel-cpus/908782-sandy-bridge-overclocking-guide-ocn-members.html). You are kinda stuck trying to find the elusive Golden Sample though. Heat and power requirements tend to be an issue.

cmaier
Jun 27, 2011, 01:46 PM
Yep. It's not like there are a bunch of other companies out there as big as Apple waiting to fill their shoes as soon as they jump ship to TSMC. Even if someone does fill their shoes, that's still lost revenue, because both Apple and those new guys would be buying from Samsung if Apple hadn't left. Now is not the time to buy Samsung stock, that much is sure.



I've never heard of any Intel CPUs being overclocked to 5ghz, and the amount of threads that can run on one core is a design thing, so... The only reason Intel has such a gigantic share of the market is because of its very old Wintel partnership. There are better CPUs out there, but not for x86.

Increasing clock speed to increase performance is inefficient. Power consumption equals CV^2f. And higher f requires higher V, too, to keep the edges sharp. So you burn much more power. Adding pipes, threads, and cores is much more efficient.

stockcerts
Jun 27, 2011, 01:47 PM
It seems like it was a bad move on Samsungs part to allow their business relationship to suffer. There was too much upside potential to risk losing Apple as a customer, plus I doubt Samsung can compete with Apple in the tablet market.

lilcosco08
Jun 27, 2011, 01:47 PM
These lawsuits are actually part of negotiation tactics for contract renewals usually.



What does a processor have to do with a pixel density at a given viewing distance ?

The A4/5/6 are SoCs which also include the GPU in addition to the processor, which with the A6, might have one powerful enough to drive "retina"

diamond.g
Jun 27, 2011, 01:49 PM
Oh it is possible to clock them high (http://www.overclock.net/intel-cpus/908782-sandy-bridge-overclocking-guide-ocn-members.html). You are kinda stuck trying to find the elusive Golden Sample though. Heat and power requirements tend to be an issue.

Increasing clock speed to increase performance is inefficient. Power consumption equals CV^2f. And higher f requires higher V, too, to keep the edges sharp. So you burn much more power. Adding pipes, threads, and cores is much more efficient.

Which is why Intel flipped back the other way with the Core Series. But make no mistake if someone were to challenge Intel in speed in the desktop world, they could re-bin their stuff for higher speeds (if that was all it took) to be on top.


They have a 5Ghz club. (http://www.overclock.net/intel-cpus/914262-official-sandy-bridge-5ghz-club.html)

KnightWRX
Jun 27, 2011, 01:50 PM
The A4/5/6 are SoCs which also include the GPU in addition to the processor, which with the A6, might have one powerful enough to drive "retina"

I know what the A4/A5/A6 are, what makes you think the current ones aren't powerful enough ?

You do realise 1024x768 is paltry resolution and that the current SGX543mp2 is quite a bit more powerful than way older cards who could power much higher resolutions right ?

chrmjenkins
Jun 27, 2011, 02:04 PM
Which is why Intel flipped back the other way with the Core Series. But make no mistake if someone were to challenge Intel in speed in the desktop world, they could re-bin their stuff for higher speeds (if that was all it took) to be on top.


They have a 5Ghz club. (http://www.overclock.net/intel-cpus/914262-official-sandy-bridge-5ghz-club.html)

No on-air restriction makes the distinction pointless. I've seen intel cpus north of 7 GHz on nitrogen. So what?

I know what the A4/A5/A6 are, what makes you think the current ones aren't powerful enough ?

You do realise 1024x768 is paltry resolution and that the current SGX543mp2 is quite a bit more powerful than way older cards who could power much higher resolutions right ?

It's an empty statement to begin with. Retina is an ambiguous term. Need a PPI, size to go with it.

diamond.g
Jun 27, 2011, 02:07 PM
No on-air restriction makes the distinction pointless. I've seen intel cpus north of 7 GHz on nitrogen. So what?



It's an empty statement to begin with. Retina is an ambiguous term. Need a PPI, size to go with it.

Yeah most of the rigs are using water. Like I said heat and power are the issues. Most also seems to agree that running the CPUs hard like that shortens their lifespan.

firewood
Jun 27, 2011, 02:08 PM
If you are implying ARM macs, nope.

ARM-based Macs? Maybe not. ARM-based Apple products that sell very near or lower than the price of low-end Macs, but at a much higher volume with good profit margins, to a huge percentage of their customers who use these products for many of the very same things for which they currently use Macs?

What the name of that theory that suitable cheaper stuff displaces older "better" stuff (mostly) out of the market?

chrmjenkins
Jun 27, 2011, 02:14 PM
Yeah most of the rigs are using water. Like I said heat and power are the issues. Most also seems to agree that running the CPUs hard like that shortens their lifespan.

Depends what you quantify as "hard". The part that eats into a CPU's lifetime is not the overclocking itself, it's the over-volting, which accelerates the aging process through electromigration. There's no real expectation of shortened lifespan if you don't over-volt.

deconstruct60
Jun 27, 2011, 02:32 PM
All parts that Apple buys from Samsung this year is valued between 7.5 billion to 10 billion dollars.
...
Of course it is a huge blow to Samsung if Apple leaves.


You are assuming that Samsung doesn't have customer that they turn down. Additionally, some of TSMC are going to show up at Samsung's door because Apple's runs have kicked them out of TSMC foundries.

This could also be a "huge blow" to Apple also. It isn't like TSMC hasn't had process and yield problems before. Nor does TSMC necessarily have the memory which gets embedded into the A6 part. It is more than just an ARM chip that goes into the package.

Likewise all of the Flash production that Samsung does for Apple. If Apple soaks up some other supplier's production that just means there are more folks coming from other suppliers. As long as single foundries are billion $ investments there are is a "reshuffling the deck chairs" effect that play a contributing role.

The bigger deal is that Samsung would loose a potential financing partner. While other folks might have as large an order for ARM chips. Few will have the upfront $200-600M in case Samsung needs some seed cash to get a new factory built or some other large capital outline. Apple can do that out of the "spare change" drawer . Apple has more money to loan than many banks do at this point.

cmaier
Jun 27, 2011, 02:32 PM
Depends what you quantify as "hard". The part that eats into a CPU's lifetime is not the overclocking itself, it's the over-volting, which accelerates the aging process through electromigration. There's no real expectation of shortened lifespan if you don't over-volt.

It depends. Higher frequency also has a linear effect on electromigration if the current is unidirectional, as it would be for any dynamic circuits on-chip.

chrmjenkins
Jun 27, 2011, 02:36 PM
It depends. Higher frequency also has a linear effect on electromigration if the current is unidirectional, as it would be for any dynamic circuits on-chip.

Right, which is why all chips eventually have a non-infinite lifetime. Over-volting is a much more significant contributor to failure than anything else from what I've seen. I merely stated it the way I did because I've never heard anyone imply frequency increases alone can have an appreciable affect on lifetime.

Rocketman
Jun 27, 2011, 02:37 PM
The bigger deal is that Samsung would loose a potential financing partner. While other folks might have as large an order for ARM chips. Few will have the upfront $200-600M in case Samsung needs some seed cash to get a new factory built or some other large capital outline. Apple can do that out of the "spare change" drawer . Apple has more money to loan than many banks do at this point.Correct.

chrmjenkins
Jun 27, 2011, 02:41 PM
Correct.

http://imgur.com/Nh2oD.jpg

res1233
Jun 27, 2011, 02:54 PM
Umm so instead of 1 company replacing Apple you have 3 or 4. The semi conductors are in short supply right now and generally there is a shortage. Apple is very replaceable in the market. I would not be surpised in the least that it was more Samsung refused to go as low of a price as Apple demanded and said their is the door. They will have no issue replacing Apple and chances are for higher profit.

They still will have lost Apple, and that is lost revenue. You say 3 or 4 companies without Apple, I say 4 or 5 companies with Apple. Get it? Losing Apple is not something Samsung wants. They're a big customer, and no matter how many people replace them, they still lose a big customer.

writingdevil
Jun 27, 2011, 02:56 PM
that troll didn't even bother to fake being a regular..join date, june 2011.

his/her content: meaningless.
time wasted: reading it: five seconds.
writing response: seven seconds.
realizing there are actually grown up people who have time to go to sites they have no involvement with or interest in, and make up sxxx: hardly priceless (another four seconds wasted..grrr)

AppleFan1984
Jun 27, 2011, 03:04 PM
I'd love to witness the "exchange of words" between the management of the semiconductor division and the mobile phone division behind closed doors.

Losing your biggest customer is not cool at all.
With a paltry $172.5 billion in revenue, how will Samsung survive with only 96% of its revenue intact?

The sky is falling....

mdriftmeyer
Jun 27, 2011, 03:13 PM
Why do they need to reverse engineer it since Samsung have an ARM license?

Apple's license for ARM includes modifying the designs to their needs which includes a SoC design with the PowerVR.

Apple has patented several hardware designs for memory management separate from the standard ARM design they incorporate into their A series SoC combos.

cmaier
Jun 27, 2011, 03:23 PM
Right, which is why all chips eventually have a non-infinite lifetime. Over-volting is a much more significant contributor to failure than anything else from what I've seen. I merely stated it the way I did because I've never heard anyone imply frequency increases alone can have an appreciable affect on lifetime.

There are also many other effects that result in "aging" of the circuits, including hot carrier effects, which are also frequency-dependent.

chrmjenkins
Jun 27, 2011, 03:32 PM
There are also many other effects that result in "aging" of the circuits, including hot carrier effects, which are also frequency-dependent.

And voltage dependent ;) , which is why people are being forced to go high-k.

I guess my point is that any frequency dependent characteristics can be compensated for (in a simplistic sense) by the amount of time the computer is loaded. Now, given that someone who over-volts likely loads his or her computer more often than other users, the same is not true for servers, which see practically 24/7 utilization but nominal operating voltages.

cmaier
Jun 27, 2011, 03:40 PM
And voltage dependent ;) , which is why people are being forced to go high-k.

I guess my point is that any frequency dependent characteristics can be compensated for (in a simplistic sense) by the amount of time the computer is loaded. Now, given that someone who over-volts likely loads his or her computer more often than other users, the same is not true for servers, which see practically 24/7 utilization but nominal operating voltages.

yes. anything that ages the chip is going to do so because of current (and hence electric fields), and current is going to depend on frequency and voltage.

Rodimus Prime
Jun 27, 2011, 03:41 PM
Right, which is why all chips eventually have a non-infinite lifetime. Over-volting is a much more significant contributor to failure than anything else from what I've seen. I merely stated it the way I did because I've never heard anyone imply frequency increases alone can have an appreciable affect on lifetime.

On air and with out increasing votlage I know I can get my old AMD 64 3000+ to run at 2.25 ghz before it gets unstable. 2.3 and it gets flaky and crashes on me.
Not to bad pulling about a 15% overclock.

cmaier
Jun 27, 2011, 03:42 PM
On air and with out increasing votlage I know I can get my old AMD 64 3000+ to run at 2.25 ghz before it gets unstable. 2.3 and it gets flaky and crashes on me.
Not to bad pulling about a 15% overclock.

I designed that chip.

Specifically, I put in the "flaky."

chrmjenkins
Jun 27, 2011, 03:52 PM
yes. anything that ages the chip is going to do so because of current (and hence electric fields), and current is going to depend on frequency and voltage.

I understand, but the point is that higher voltage brings more problems than just higher frequency, namely things like punchthrough and higher saturation velocity (which is going to feed into electromigration).

I designed that chip.

Specifically, I put in the "flaky."

You tuned the overclockability? Specifically higher or limited it to control target demographic and price strata?

cmaier
Jun 27, 2011, 03:59 PM
I understand, but the point is that higher voltage brings more problems than just higher frequency, namely things like punchthrough and higher saturation velocity (which is going to feed into electromigration).

Ah, but higher frequency is accompanied by faster slews, which result in higher electric fields and, often, ringing, which leads to more punchthrough :-)



You tuned the overclockability? Specifically higher or limited it to control target demographic and price strata?

heh heh. No one tunes the overclockability. We design it to go as fast as we can, then some folks in asia bin the things using some magical voodoo formula that we know nothing about.

chrmjenkins
Jun 27, 2011, 04:16 PM
Ah, but higher frequency is accompanied by faster slews, which result in higher electric fields and, often, ringing, which leads to more punchthrough :-)

I didn't think about that. You got me :o

heh heh. No one tunes the overclockability. We design it to go as fast as we can, then some folks in asia bin the things using some magical voodoo formula that we know nothing about.

Of course, which is why I was asking what about "flaky" you actually designed because it confused me.

cmaier
Jun 27, 2011, 04:52 PM
I didn't think about that. You got me :o



Of course, which is why I was asking what about "flaky" you actually designed because it confused me.

If you use the chip and something flaky happens, that was all me.

lilcosco08
Jun 27, 2011, 06:08 PM
It's an empty statement to begin with. Retina is an ambiguous term. Need a PPI, size to go with it.

Hence the ""

Legion93
Jun 27, 2011, 06:19 PM
A6 chips already? Isn't it early enough?

blackpond
Jun 27, 2011, 07:19 PM
Pretty sure iOS devices are still quite a bit higher in number than Android devices....last I saw to the tune of about 2:1.

3:1 actually. But maybe that's just because people actually browse the web more with iOS - even without Flash. Who knows?

http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?spider=1&qprid=8

haruhiko
Jun 27, 2011, 08:13 PM
Samsung can pretty much "match" the specs and the design of Apple devices well ahead of other manufacturers due to its advantage of being the supplier of the most important component (the CPU+GPU among others) of the iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch, and that's exactly why they have a huge lead in sales numbers even compared with strong competitors like HTC, Moto, etc.

I really want to see what phones will they make after they have lost the supplier contract from Apple... then we will know clearly if they have "copied" Apple or not! :p

shigzeo
Jun 27, 2011, 09:10 PM
Again, Samsung are still the largest corporate entity on the planet. Their electronics business is just ONE of their businesses. They own: groceries (where they started out), refineries, shipperies, construction companies, skyscrapers, investment firms, insurance, hotels, shopping malls, amusement parks, household electronics, apartments, and a LOT more.

The continued talk of Samsung as down and out without Apple is silly. Sure, it won't help business or their image (not that they has a good image in their home country among concerned citizens), but it is hardly a flea bite in comparison.

Apple are huge in tech. They have NOTHING else. Samsung are among the largest in the world in EVERY market they are in.

Samsung was in a win-win situation. But now with losing Apple as a customer, along with the fact that Android sales are starting to level off due to Apple expanding onto new carriers like Verizon and staying competitive with innovations such as free iCloud services, they are soon going to start feeling the hurt. Especially if they end up having to actually make their own phone designs following the court ruling, lol.

But they will still have their TV market, am I right?

kiljoy616
Jun 27, 2011, 10:22 PM
more importantly, what will the A6 bring to the table...

This also means that we can put to rest any iPad 3 this year:D

From what I have read in other news outlets here is the big deal so it may not be because of what people are thinking.

Currently, iPad 2 configured A5 processor by the Samsung 45-nanometer process production, rumor that Apple with TSMC will produce the next generation A6 ARM CPU with 28-nanometer process. Plus possible Quadcore specs.

Either way the iPad 3 will rock till you drop, perfect I will have now two ipad one just for my jukebox and the other for everything else, I am in paradise come next year.:)

orthorim
Jun 27, 2011, 11:13 PM
Again, Samsung are still the largest corporate entity on the planet. Their electronics business is just ONE of their businesses. They own: groceries (where they started out), refineries, shipperies, construction....

Yeah - Samsung is also one of the biggest mobile phone makers, and it's getting into tablets. Those are areas where "not being able to see Apple designs early" will hurt them.

The washing machines and groceries are safe ;)

chrmjenkins
Jun 28, 2011, 12:12 AM
This also means that we can put to rest any iPad 3 this year:D

From what I have read in other news outlets here is the big deal so it may not be because of what people are thinking.

Currently, iPad 2 configured A5 processor by the Samsung 45-nanometer process production, rumor that Apple with TSMC will produce the next generation A6 ARM CPU with 28-nanometer process. Plus possible Quadcore specs.

Either way the iPad 3 will rock till you drop, perfect I will have now two ipad one just for my jukebox and the other for everything else, I am in paradise come next year.:)

I highly doubt a quad core. Most likely it will largely be a 28nm die shrink of A5 with a modest clock bump, much like the A4 was to the 3GS SoC. The power savings will be passed onto the power hungry LTE radio. Then with A7 we get eagle cores with a sgx 6xx GPU.

KnightWRX
Jun 28, 2011, 03:59 AM
I highly doubt a quad core. Most likely it will largely be a 28nm die shrink of A5 with a modest clock bump, much like the A4 was to the 3GS SoC. The power savings will be passed onto the power hungry LTE radio. Then with A7 we get eagle cores with a sgx 6xx GPU.

With nVidia shipping Tegra 3 as a quad core SoC late '11, 2012 will be the year of quad core SoCs and Apple is going to hop on that with A6, that's a high probability.

JulianL
Jun 28, 2011, 04:41 AM
A6 chips already? Isn't it early enough?
There seem to be some genuine CPU designers here that I hope can provide some real technical insight.

If we take a totally hypothetical date of a 30th April 2012 for first ship date on the first A6 device (iPad 3?) and make some reasonable assumptions on A6 complexity then what would be the very rough timescales for A6 development, in particular (in forward chronological order) tapeout for first silicon, first silicon back to lab, and then final tapeout for volume production?

- Julian

KnightWRX
Jun 28, 2011, 05:33 AM
Samsung can pretty much "match" the specs and the design of Apple devices well ahead of other manufacturers due to its advantage of being the supplier of the most important component (the CPU+GPU among others) of the iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch, and that's exactly why they have a huge lead in sales numbers even compared with strong competitors like HTC, Moto, etc.

I really want to see what phones will they make after they have lost the supplier contract from Apple... then we will know clearly if they have "copied" Apple or not! :p

That post shows how much you don't know about the current mobile industry and how it relates to Apple vs the competition.

If anything, Apple is late in the game on specs. Samsung have been using their own processor, dual core, before the A5 was shipped and announced, same as Motorola and others. Cortex A9 is not an Apple design and it was with us before Apple.

Samsung also doesn't use Apple's display technology in their phones, which is ancient LCD compared to their AMOLED stuff or SLCD that other industry players use.

Apple is a bit behind the curve on specs, this won't change anything for Samsung on the highly subjective "copying" front.

gerbil
Jun 28, 2011, 06:25 AM
Again, Samsung are still the largest corporate entity on the planet. Their electronics business is just ONE of their businesses. They own: groceries (where they started out), refineries, shipperies, construction companies, skyscrapers, investment firms, insurance, hotels, shopping malls, amusement parks, household electronics, apartments, and a LOT more.


Samsung (along with the other chaebols such as LG and Lotte) has the South Korean government to thank for the bulk of those "achievements." :rolleyes:

Given the choice, do you really think Everland (Samsung's copy-and-paste job of an amusement park) would stand a chance if there was a Disneyland built in Korea?

The iPhone has only been around in Korea for about 2 years due to "government regulations" which gave Samsung time to copy the iPhone and sell their copy to a basically captive South Korean market.

And who pays for the discounted Samsungs sold outside South Korea? Look at the prices South Koreans pay for a Samsung product domestically with how much it sells abroad and they're shocked they have to pay more for a "home-grown" brand.

AppleFan1984
Jun 28, 2011, 09:22 AM
Samsung has no 28nm line. They cant manufacture A6 cpus.
Looks like that changed earlier this month:

Samsung tips 28-nm, low-power process
http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4216675/Samsung-tips-28-nm--low-power-process-

AppleFan1984
Jun 28, 2011, 09:54 AM
3:1 actually. But maybe that's just because people actually browse the web more with iOS - even without Flash. Who knows?

http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?spider=1&qprid=8
There may be other factors involved as well, such as differences in caching schemes.

Looking at the actual number of units sold we see a different picture, with a steady long-term trend:


Oct. 2010:
Android sales overtake iOS in the US (for real this time)
http://unplugged.rcrwireless.com/index.php/20101005/news/4032/android-sales-overtake-ios-in-the-us-for-real-this-time/

Oct. 2010:
Android Revenue Exceeds iPhone Ad Sales; iPad Up 316 Percent In Q3
http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/19/millennial-media-android-revenue-exceeds-iphone-ad-sales-ipad-up-316-percent-in-q3/

Nov. 2010:
Gartner: Android Tops iOS in 3Q 2010 Global Smartphone Market Share
http://www.macrumors.com/2010/11/10/gartner-android-tops-ios-in-3q-2010-global-smartphone-market-share/

Dec. 2010:
Android activations now number over 300,000 daily, Andy Rubin tweets
http://www.androidcentral.com/android-activations-now-number-over-300k-daily

Feb. 2011:
Gartner: Android OS Sales Trump iOS And RIM, Grew 888 Percent In 2010
http://techcrunch.com/2011/02/09/gartner-android-os-sales-trumps-ios-and-rim-grew-888-percent-in-2010/

April 2011:
Nielsen: Android overtakes iOS in desirability, sales in the US
http://www.mobile-arena.com/2011/04/nielsen-android-overtakes-ios-in.html

May 2011:
Android beats Apple iOS in market share
http://www.silicon.com/technology/mobile/2011/05/20/android-beats-apple-ios-in-market-share-39747427/

June 2011:
Google: 500,000 Android devices activated each day
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-20074956-17/google-500000-android-devices-activated-each-day/


Sure, the methods used to account for those number differ with each source, and perhaps the Google numbers may be suspect. But there's enough consistency in the trend to assume that the basic premise is true: Android currently has roughly twice the market share as iOS.

Rodimus Prime
Jun 28, 2011, 10:24 AM
Sure, the methods used to account for those number differ with each source, and perhaps the Google numbers may be suspect. But there's enough consistency in the trend to assume that the basic premise is true: Android currently has roughly twice the market share as iOS.

Google numbers more than likely are your best source as it relates to activations and does not count anything in the channels.
Also does not count the crapletes out there that run "Android" but do not meet Google's requirements to even have access to the market or Google's services.
While they are running Android they are not counted by Google.

chrmjenkins
Jun 28, 2011, 10:52 AM
With nVidia shipping Tegra 3 as a quad core SoC late '11, 2012 will be the year of quad core SoCs and Apple is going to hop on that with A6, that's a high probability.

And if you look at product roadmaps, very few other SoC manufacturers have quad cores in their roadmaps. Not TI. Not Qualcomm nor Samsung. Nvidia is pretty much the only one with the clear intent for the smartphone and tablet market. Last I checked Marvell had one planned, but not for mobile devices. (same is true for Qualcomm. They have quad core planned, but without radio in chipset, which means not intended for mobile devices)

Nvidia is out for the performance crown, just like with their GPUs. It's not clear there's even a market for mobile quad-cores yet. Thus, I don't expect Apple to go quad core soon, certainly not with Cortex A9 cores. They just went quad core in their high end laptops.

That post shows how much you don't know about the current mobile industry and how it relates to Apple vs the competition.

If anything, Apple is late in the game on specs. Samsung have been using their own processor, dual core, before the A5 was shipped and announced, same as Motorola and others. Cortex A9 is not an Apple design and it was with us before Apple.

Not true. A5 launched before Orion (sorry, Orion was codename, SoC is called Exynos), which is used in the Galaxy SII and Galaxy Tab 10.1, both of which clearly launched after the iPad 2.

Samsung also doesn't use Apple's display technology in their phones, which is ancient LCD compared to their AMOLED stuff or SLCD that other industry players use.

Actually, Apple utilizes IPS displays in their mobile displays, which offers superior viewing angles and color accuracy compared to normal TN panels. SLCD's main feature point is less light bleed, but it's still inferior to AMOLED in contrast, so it's not much for writing home about. The iPhone 4 still retains the highest ppi of any major phone display out there, so I wouldn't say they are behind any curve.

Rodimus Prime
Jun 28, 2011, 11:02 AM
And if you look at product roadmaps, very few other SoC manufacturers have quad cores in their roadmaps. Not TI. Not Qualcomm nor Samsung. Nvidia is pretty much the only one with the clear intent for the smartphone and tablet market. Last I checked Marvell had one planned, but not for mobile devices.

Nvidia is out for the performance crown, just like with their GPUs. It's not clear there's even a market for mobile quad-cores yet. Thus, I don't expect Apple to go quad core soon, certainly not with Cortex A9 cores. They just went quad core in their high end laptops.

Multi core. The NEW mhz myth.

diamond.g
Jun 28, 2011, 12:19 PM
And if you look at product roadmaps, very few other SoC manufacturers have quad cores in their roadmaps. Not TI. Not Qualcomm nor Samsung. Nvidia is pretty much the only one with the clear intent for the smartphone and tablet market. Last I checked Marvell had one planned, but not for mobile devices. (same is true for Qualcomm. They have quad core planned, but without radio in chipset, which means not intended for mobile devices)

Nvidia is out for the performance crown, just like with their GPUs. It's not clear there's even a market for mobile quad-cores yet. Thus, I don't expect Apple to go quad core soon, certainly not with Cortex A9 cores. They just went quad core in their high end laptops.



Not true. A5 launched before Orion (sorry, Orion was codename, SoC is called Exynos), which is used in the Galaxy SII and Galaxy Tab 10.1, both of which clearly launched after the iPad 2.



Actually, Apple utilizes IPS displays in their mobile displays, which offers superior viewing angles and color accuracy compared to normal TN panels. SLCD's main feature point is less light bleed, but it's still inferior to AMOLED in contrast, so it's not much for writing home about. The iPhone 4 still retains the highest ppi of any major phone display out there, so I wouldn't say they are behind any curve.

Wait, didn't Tegra 2 launch before A5?

NT1440
Jun 28, 2011, 12:26 PM
Wait, didn't Tegra 2 launch before A5?

Well, it was definitely demoed way before. As for shipping in actual products I'm not sure.

Anyone else excited what the upcoming Kal-el chip will do for mobile markets?

chrmjenkins
Jun 28, 2011, 12:43 PM
Wait, didn't Tegra 2 launch before A5?

Well, it was definitely demoed way before. As for shipping in actual products I'm not sure.

Anyone else excited what the upcoming Kal-el chip will do for mobile markets?

Tegra 2 was, but he was referring to Samsung's next generation SoC, Exynos, which didn't launch until The Galaxy S II launched in May. Samsung also didn't use the Tegra 2 until May. (A tegra 2 SII version exists).

As for Kal-el, we need to wait for design wins first. Tegra 2 was lucky to be a google reference chip for Android 3.0, but if power consumption is high on Tegra 3, people may shy away from it.

NT1440
Jun 28, 2011, 12:47 PM
Tegra 2 was, but he was referring to Samsung's next generation SoC, Exynos, which didn't launch until The Galaxy S II launched in May. Samsung also didn't use the Tegra 2 until May. (A tegra 2 SII version exists).

As for Kal-el, we need to wait for design wins first. Tegra 2 was lucky to be a google reference chip for Android 3.0, but if power consumption is high on Tegra 3, people may shy away from it.

I believe I read that the Tegra line is supposed to operate on a tick-tock schedule. The tick meets a certain power usage, and the tock provides enhancements to get more power out of the same usage. I believe the Kal-el is supposed to have the same exact power usage and specs as the tegra II but with significantly faster quad cores and way better graphics.

That said, staying at the same current level of power usage is...well its not good in my opinion.

This is where Apple and the rest need to step it up. 10 hours is GREAT, but when we reach literally all day usage, well thats a whole new ball game.

KnightWRX
Jun 28, 2011, 01:31 PM
Tegra 2 was, but he was referring to Samsung's next generation SoC, Exynos, which didn't launch until The Galaxy S II launched in May. Samsung also didn't use the Tegra 2 until May. (A tegra 2 SII version exists).

You might be right about launches, I was sure Samsung had a dual core product out in february, but it does seem they didn't after all.

However, the post was still wrong that "Samsung copies Apple stuff" when Apple's A5 is just a Cortex A9, which players have been demoing (including Samsung's Orion) since late last year.

As for IPS, it's still old technology and still has the problems of LCD, ie, washed out colors and bad blacks because of the backlight. The industry has moved forward, and especially Samsung, with their iron grip on AMOLED production which they use almost exclusively in their own devices.

Samsung doesn't need Apple as a customer in order to "copy", if they even copy in the first place (let's not go there, I don't want to have to repost all my stuff on the "blatant" copying thing... let the judge sort it out before anyone makes any claims as fact here).

chrmjenkins
Jun 28, 2011, 01:48 PM
I believe I read that the Tegra line is supposed to operate on a tick-tock schedule. The tick meets a certain power usage, and the tock provides enhancements to get more power out of the same usage. I believe the Kal-el is supposed to have the same exact power usage and specs as the tegra II but with significantly faster quad cores and way better graphics.

They are roughly doubling the silicon in both the cpu and gpu. They are still on the same 40nm process, and they are adding SIMD/NEON support to their CPU. I would bet my life that their peak power consumption is higher than the Tegra 2.

They may have lower static power consumption, but the 40nm process is pretty mature and tapped out because they haven't been able to advance to 32nm on schedule because TSMC basically scrapped it for 28nm.

As for it being quad core, I'd skeptical that there is any real world mobile device usage scenario where that would matter currently. I can definitely see its appeal in a net top like conversion device much like the atrix, but beyond that, I'm not so sure.

That said, staying at the same current level of power usage is...well its not good in my opinion.

This is where Apple and the rest need to step it up. 10 hours is GREAT, but when we reach literally all day usage, well thats a whole new ball game.

Apple is on the top of the group as far as smartphones go (blackberries excluded).

You might be right about launches, I was sure Samsung had a dual core product out in february, but it does seem they didn't after all.

However, the post was still wrong that "Samsung copies Apple stuff" when Apple's A5 is just a Cortex A9, which players have been demoing (including Samsung's Orion) since late last year.

I'm not approaching it from the copying angle. I was addressing the idea that Apple is lacking technologically.

As for IPS, it's still old technology and still has the problems of LCD, ie, washed out colors and bad blacks because of the backlight. The industry has moved forward, and especially Samsung, with their iron grip on AMOLED production which they use almost exclusively in their own devices.

And they don't have production capacity for Apple's needs. It's not realistic to expect Apple to release a product that doesn't have production capacity to meet their volume. Samsung is getting there with new plants opening, but they hadn't been there previously, and things like the HTC Droid Incredible even switched to SLCD when shortages threatened its production.

cmaier
Jun 28, 2011, 01:59 PM
However, the post was still wrong that "Samsung copies Apple stuff" when Apple's A5 is just a Cortex A9, which players have been demoing (including Samsung's Orion) since late last year.

Well, sorta. It's pretty clear to me that they just started with A9 RTL, but I don't think it looks anything like any other A9 out there (the size, alone, should make this apparent).

chrmjenkins
Jun 28, 2011, 02:28 PM
Well, sorta. It's pretty clear to me that they just started with A9 RTL, but I don't think it looks anything like any other A9 out there (the size, alone, should make this apparent).

I haven't compared. How big is it compared to the reference design? I'll admit I don't even know if it has a SIMD unit.

cmaier
Jun 28, 2011, 02:40 PM
I haven't compared. How big is it compared to the reference design? I'll admit I don't even know if it has a SIMD unit.

I've read that it's about 2x the die area. I suspect they are using n-of-m encoding, but that's just a guess - my buddies won't tell me.

chrmjenkins
Jun 28, 2011, 02:52 PM
I've read that it's about 2x the die area. I suspect they are using n-of-m encoding, but that's just a guess - my buddies won't tell me.

The value of n-of-m being what? I see it has applicability in frequency hopping, but that's tower-side, not handset side I thought?

cmaier
Jun 28, 2011, 03:40 PM
The value of n-of-m being what? I see it has applicability in frequency hopping, but that's tower-side, not handset side I thought?

Speed/efficiency. The Intrinsity guys (formerly EVSX formerly members of the Austin design team of Exponential Technology) did that stuff, and Apple acquired them.

mazz0
Jun 29, 2011, 12:56 AM
Couldn't this be a rouse to help with certain other negotiations?

cmaier
Jun 29, 2011, 12:58 AM
Couldn't this be a rouse to help with certain other negotiations?

unlikely. not a lot of leverage there.

Lochias
Jun 29, 2011, 05:35 AM
Again, Samsung are still the largest corporate entity on the planet. Their electronics business is just ONE of their businesses. They own: groceries (where they started out), refineries, shipperies, construction companies, skyscrapers, investment firms, insurance, hotels, shopping malls, amusement parks, household electronics, apartments, and a LOT more.
...



Samsung is indeed a big company, with about the revenue of Warren Buffet's company. But it is hardly the biggest. Major oil companies have higher revenue, as do VW and Toyota. GE is bigger. Walmart is three times as big.

Tailpike1153
Jun 29, 2011, 08:18 AM
Will Apple finally see the benefit of acquiring PA Semi and Intrinisity with the move to Taiwan Semi?

cmaier
Jun 29, 2011, 09:28 AM
Will Apple finally see the benefit of acquiring PA Semi and Intrinisity with the move to Taiwan Semi?

Who says they haven't already seen the benefit ?

chrmjenkins
Jun 29, 2011, 10:49 AM
Will Apple finally see the benefit of acquiring PA Semi and Intrinisity with the move to Taiwan Semi?

Who says they haven't already seen the benefit ?

Yeah, I don't think anyone doubts PA Semi and Intrinsity were heavily involved in the A5.

cmaier
Jun 29, 2011, 11:06 AM
Yeah, I don't think anyone doubts PA Semi and Intrinsity were heavily involved in the A5.

I can shed a tiny bit of light on that. My understanding is that the PA Semi guys were not involved in A5.

chrmjenkins
Jun 29, 2011, 11:52 AM
I can shed a tiny bit of light on that. My understanding is that the PA Semi guys were not involved in A5.

That's interesting, because I thought there was custom power saving logic in their A-branded chips. Who else would this come from if not PA Semi's expertise?

cmaier
Jun 29, 2011, 11:56 AM
That's interesting, because I thought there was custom power saving logic in their A-branded chips. Who else would this come from if not PA Semi's expertise?

There may or may not be such logic, but this isn't the kind of thing that requires "expertise."

chrmjenkins
Jun 29, 2011, 12:29 PM
There may or may not be such logic, but this isn't the kind of thing that requires "expertise."

Well, why buy them if you aren't going to use them?

cmaier
Jun 29, 2011, 12:45 PM
Well, why buy them if you aren't going to use them?

I didn't say they weren't using them.