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MacRumors
Jun 27, 2011, 10:37 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/27/example-of-an-external-dock-and-gpu-over-thunderbolt-technology/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/06/external.jpg

(http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/06/external.jpg)
Sony just announced (http://presscentre.sony.eu/content/detail.aspx?ReleaseID=6836&NewsAreaId=2) a new ultra-thin 13.1" notebook that integrates Thunderbolt in a unique way. Sony is offering a "Power Media Dock" which is an expansion module that connects to the laptop via an optical cable. Featuring high-speed I/O data transfer based on the architecture codenamed ‘Light Peak’, Power Media Dock boosts graphics performance while adding numerous extra connectivity options. It includes an optical drive for even greater business productivity and satisfying HD entertainment. The module comes supplied with a stylish design-matched stand.The notebook itself only contains an Intel HD Graphics 3000 GPU, while the external dock contains an AMD Radeon HD 6650M with 1GB of Video RAM. This allows the computer to gain extra graphics capabilities when connected to the dock. The dock can drive up to 3 additional displays beyond the notebook's own screen. As noted by ThisisMyNext (http://thisismynext.com/2011/06/27/sony-vaio-z-debuts-in-europe/), Sony's solution seems to be proprietary and based around a USB 3.0 connector as previously reported (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/18/is-sony-fragmenting-thunderbolt-apple-not-intel-applies-for-thunderbolt-trademark/).

The possibility of such an external GPU has been discussed (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1102224) many times on our forums, and Sonnet previously announced (http://www.sonnettech.com/news/nab2011/) an external PCIe 2.0 expansion chassis that would allow customers to add PCI expansion cards over Thunderbolt. It has been pointed out (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12546349&postcount=8) however that Thunderbolt's available bandwidth is much lower than required by high end video cards, so this will only help in certain scenarios. Still, this shows some possibilities for expansion docking products for the MacBook Air or Mac mini after they get upgraded to Thunderbolt.

Article Link: Example of an External Dock and GPU Over Thunderbolt Technology (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/27/example-of-an-external-dock-and-gpu-over-thunderbolt-technology/)



res1233
Jun 27, 2011, 10:40 PM
Funny... I got tweeted this article before it was up on the webpage... Refreshed it a few times.

Why the hell are they using a USB connector? Are they trying to cause problems?

dreamworks21
Jun 27, 2011, 10:41 PM
In related news, hackers around the globe announced they're eagerly awaiting everything Sony will release.

arn
Jun 27, 2011, 10:43 PM
Funny... I got tweeted this article before it was up on the webpage... Refreshed it a few times.

Why the hell are they using a USB connector? Are they trying to cause problems?

You'd think Sony would have learned its lesson by now with all these proprietary formats and connectors.

arn

Chip NoVaMac
Jun 27, 2011, 10:44 PM
If Apple were to do the same it would answer the needs of some of us. Would love a MBA that is simple for on the go... and more powerful when at home...

LarryC
Jun 27, 2011, 10:45 PM
This is great. Hopefully, apple will do something similar with the air.

You'd think Sony would have learned its lesson by now with all these proprietary formats and connectors.

arn

Are they any worse about that than apple is? I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, I'm really asking. The same has been said about apple.

acurafan
Jun 27, 2011, 10:47 PM
so apple's going copy the media dock like mba copied the original vaio and chiclet keys? where are the litigation lawyers ;)

Are they any worse about that than apple is? ...The same has been said about apple.
monkey see, monkey do

A Macbook Pro
Jun 27, 2011, 10:49 PM
Finally an original idea from somebody other then Apple.

Googlyhead
Jun 27, 2011, 10:51 PM
Are they any worse about that than apple is? I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, I'm really asking. The same has been said about apple.

But the point surely is that the USB bunch specifically told intel that a USB port is not to be used for non-USB protocols. An alternative was found (by Apple, anyway), and now Sony decide; um... To be idiots.

Anyway; I'd much rather the notebook not be cut down simply b'cos there's an external (but worse) option. Hopefully if external graphics processors are an option, Apple won't cut the dedicated chips out leaving just the intel integrated.

SnowLeopard2008
Jun 27, 2011, 10:52 PM
Are they any worse about that than apple is? I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, I'm really asking. The same has been said about apple.

Apple's proprietary stuff can be licensed out and perform better than the competition. The same can't be said for Sony. Especially their expensive, slow Memory Sticks.

Spiritgreywolf
Jun 27, 2011, 10:54 PM
i wonder if it comes with the root-kit pre-installed or you have to download it first in order to boot your PC?

I personally won't buy anything that has a Sony label on it. Ever.

:mad:

dagamer34
Jun 27, 2011, 10:54 PM
This article disproves that you really need more than a PCI-E x4 slot to get decent performance: http://hardocp.com/article/2010/08/25/gtx_480_sli_pcie_bandwidth_perf_x16x16_vs_x4x4

The reason graphics cards use a x16 slot is mainly so the slot can safely provide enough power to the card. GPUs aren't that bandwidth starved from the bus itself.

arn
Jun 27, 2011, 10:58 PM
Are they any worse about that than apple is? I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, I'm really asking. The same has been said about apple.

I think Apple has learned its lesson for the most part. I mean compared to early Apple? Apple is doing great using relatively standard connectors for most things.

And you can't even compare it to Sony. Sony who designs a new memory stick format for every device (I'm only exaggerating a little).

arn

dagamer34
Jun 27, 2011, 10:58 PM
But the point surely is that the USB bunch specifically told intel that a USB port is not to be used for non-USB protocols. An alternative was found (by Apple, anyway), and now Sony decide; um... To be idiots.

Anyway; I'd much rather the notebook not be cut down simply b'cos there's an external (but worse) option. Hopefully if external graphics processors are an option, Apple won't cut the dedicated chips out leaving just the intel integrated.

If anything, the only use for Thunderbolt in this laptop is going to be for the dock, as I predict most manufacturers are going to stick with the official spec (and ports) for their products.

res1233
Jun 27, 2011, 11:00 PM
This is great. Hopefully, apple will do something similar with the air.



Are they any worse about that than apple is? I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, I'm really asking. The same has been said about apple.

Apple used to be like that up the wazoo, in fact it was one of the things steve criticized when he was brought back into Apple from NeXT. They're far less like that now than they used to be, and as an above poster has stated, generally all their proprietary connectors are open for license to anyone who wants it. This retarded move by Sony could result in port fragmentation and cause two lines of TB devices to form: One for USB/TB and one for Mini DisplayPort/TB.

EDIT: Also, because all the devices being brought to market are Mini DisplayPort/TB devices, it's highly likely this will be DOA.

gmcalpin
Jun 27, 2011, 11:01 PM
Why the hell are they using a USB connector? Are they trying to cause problems?
Since it doesn't look like they're marketing this as "Thunderbolt," it shouldn't cause too many problems. It's still kind of stupid, but there shouldn't be any confusion.

Eidorian
Jun 27, 2011, 11:03 PM
The limited PCIe lanes are not terribly detrimental. Tom's Hardware and TechPowerUp love to run bandwidth crippled flagship video card every time a new one rolls out. A 6650M is insignificant compared to those monsters.


Since it doesn't look like they're marketing this as "Thunderbolt," it shouldn't cause too many problems. It's still kind of stupid, but there shouldn't be any confusion.They probably only wanted the features the controller provides and nothing else.

LarryC
Jun 27, 2011, 11:03 PM
But the point surely is that the USB bunch specifically told intel that a USB port is not to be used for non-USB protocols. An alternative was found (by Apple, anyway), and now Sony decide; um... To be idiots.

Anyway; I'd much rather the notebook not be cut down simply b'cos there's an external (but worse) option. Hopefully if external graphics processors are an option, Apple won't cut the dedicated chips out leaving just the intel integrated.

I did not know that. Thank you. It does kind of make you wonder if Apple is planning on doing the same thing with the Air? I did look at the specs of this new machine. They have a higher resolution than Apple's 13" Air, maybe Apple will increase that on their updated MBA. That had never occurred to me before... if you purchase a MacBook Air you could tell people that you have an MBA :D Just kidding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryC
Are they any worse about that than apple is? I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, I'm really asking. The same has been said about apple.
I think Apple has learned its lesson for the most part. I mean compared to early Apple? Apple is doing great using relatively standard connectors for most things.

And you can't even compare it to Sony. Sony who designs a new memory stick format for every device (I'm only exaggerating a little).

arn

I was not aware that Sony did that. I have never owned one. Thanks for the information. That is good to know.

adcx64
Jun 27, 2011, 11:05 PM
You'd think Sony would have learned its lesson by now with all these proprietary formats and connectors.

arn

Some things will never change!
Though, I am eager to see if Apple will make a Thunderbolt dock.

ouimetnick
Jun 27, 2011, 11:07 PM
Apple would never do something like that though. We would get "confused"


OR

They wouldn't be able to sell you on an upgrade if they offered better specs with a dock thing.

deannnnn
Jun 27, 2011, 11:09 PM
This is a pretty cool idea.

hotcocoa
Jun 27, 2011, 11:12 PM
I'm really curious what Apple has planned for the next version of the Cinema Display.

hotcocoa
Jun 27, 2011, 11:12 PM
I'm also curious what Apple has planned for Thunderbolt. The MBA revision will clear up their strategy. The cost and space of a Thunderbolt connector on the already cramped MBA logic board will be a test of Apple's commitment to the technology.

The popular view is that Apple plans to incorporate Thunderbolt into all future products. If this is the case, I'm sure they have some specific peripherals that they plan on bringing to market. If this is true, it definitely will be included in the new MBA.

Alternatively Apple might see Thunderbolt as a differentiating feature found only on high-end Macs, such as the MB, MBP, and iMac.

tmroper
Jun 27, 2011, 11:15 PM
So maybe people switching to Premier Pro might be able to use NVIDIA cards to take advantage of Premiere Pros Mercury Engine? Or does that involve too much bandwidth?

dr Dunkel
Jun 27, 2011, 11:17 PM
Nice! I knew someone would show something like this very soon.

I don't think there will be any problems with having TB (Apple) and USB/LP (the rest). On another note, doesn't docks generally use manufacturer specific ports?

lloyddean
Jun 27, 2011, 11:20 PM
A reminder of the Apple patent application article "Apple exploring all-in-one MagSafe power and data connector (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/02/17/apple_exploring_all_in_one_magsafe_power_and_data_connector.html)".

subsonix
Jun 27, 2011, 11:22 PM
So maybe people switching to Premier Pro might be able to use NVIDIA cards to take advantage of Premiere Pros Mercury Engine? Or does that involve too much bandwidth?

Or you could potentially create a cluster with mac nodes with a central Xsan disk array.

spleen
Jun 27, 2011, 11:26 PM
Did anybody else read this and think Powerbook Duo and Duo Dock?

magbarn
Jun 27, 2011, 11:30 PM
I'm really curious what Apple has planned for the next version of the Cinema Display.

I was thinking the same thing. Imagin a 27" cinema display with thunderbolt AND an AMD 6950 built in for gaming/photo work. You use the HD3000 on the go, and plug in your SB MBA at home to game.

usman.rz
Jun 27, 2011, 11:33 PM
I was thinking the same thing. Imagin a 27" cinema display with thunderbolt AND an AMD 6950 built in for gaming/photo work. You use the HD3000 on the go, and plug in your SB MBA at home to game.

Exactly, your MBA, your Mini, etc.

MattInOz
Jun 27, 2011, 11:34 PM
If Apple were to do the same it would answer the needs of some of us. Would love a MBA that is simple for on the go... and more powerful when at home...

They should revisit the Cinema Displays to act like this hub, and have two thunderbolt ports on it so it could have two computers hooked up to it the desktop one becoming slave processor to the laptop if it's connected.

hotcocoa
Jun 27, 2011, 11:36 PM
If Apple does intend on putting Thunderbolt on all future Macs, what kind of peripherals do they envision?

Most of Apple's Mac sales are laptops, yet the iMac and Cinema Display show that Apple believes that a large screen can provide a much better computing experience. Perhaps Thunderbolt is seen as a way to bridge between these computing experiences.

Integrating components such as a faster graphics card, large rotational drive, and even (perhaps) an optical drive into a revised Cinema Display might be interesting, although it seems slightly awkward. This kind of product would make sense as a home station for your Mac laptop, but it could be difficult to explain to potential customers. Also the typical lifespan of a display is much greater than video cards or hard drives.

An external dock seems even more uncharacteristic for Apple. I think Apple's goal with Thunderbolt is consolidation, not adding another box on your desk.

arn
Jun 27, 2011, 11:37 PM
An external dock seems even more uncharacteristic for Apple. I think Apple's goal with Thunderbolt is to get consolidate, not add another box on your desk.

Well, presumably, 3rd parties will be able to make Thunderbolt docks, so you don't have to wait for Apple.

arn

shartypants
Jun 27, 2011, 11:37 PM
Looks like a Think Pad, no style.

AidenShaw
Jun 27, 2011, 11:41 PM
Looks like a Think Pad, no style.

Sometimes function trumps style.

naix
Jun 27, 2011, 11:41 PM
old news....

hotcocoa
Jun 27, 2011, 11:47 PM
Well, presumably, 3rd parties will be able to make Thunderbolt docks, so you don't have to wait for Apple.

arn

Yeah, that's true. Apple's vision might just be to enable 3rd parties. If that's the case then a revised Cinema Display would probably act as a Thunderbolt and USB hub.

AidenShaw
Jun 27, 2011, 11:48 PM
old news....

Many Wintel laptops have docking stations.

The "news" is using TBolt for the docking station - which brings up the possibility that Apple may finally produce a docking solution for the Apple laptops.

superericla
Jun 27, 2011, 11:50 PM
"connects to the laptop via an optical cable"
This is what makes this whole thing interesting to me. Does this use the same type of Thunderbolt implementation as the current MacBook Pros and iMacs but swaps out copper cables for optical or is it a different and newer Thunderbolt with faster speeds that's all optical?

lloyddean
Jun 27, 2011, 11:56 PM
And I would expect a future Apple Portable to use the fused mag-safe optical connection allowing for quick single cable connect/release to a docking station.

Perhaps even a display with integrated sound, USB, FireWire and others ...

DisMyMac
Jun 28, 2011, 12:11 AM
It's nice to know that in theory Thunderbolt works, and it can be used for things. That's great.

lilo777
Jun 28, 2011, 01:12 AM
I think Apple has learned its lesson for the most part. I mean compared to early Apple? Apple is doing great using relatively standard connectors for most things.

And you can't even compare it to Sony. Sony who designs a new memory stick format for every device (I'm only exaggerating a little).

arn

I am not sure it's a fair comparison. I believe the latest Sony devices (still cameras, for example) support both Memory Stick and SD Cards. In this case, Sony laptop has Light peak and USB 3.0. Compare this to Apple - only Light Peak/Thunderbolt and no industry standard USB 3.0.

iSayuSay
Jun 28, 2011, 01:18 AM
It's new ultrathin Vaio laptop with Playstation4 connected through thunderbolt-like connection.

Wake up people!! :D

Piggie
Jun 28, 2011, 01:25 AM
I have a great idea.
We have the problem of modern graphics cards getting hot in slim tight chassis of some modern machines (Laptops, Macbooks, iMacs)

So let's design an external graphics card.

Excellent idea.

Oh, and let's put it in a super slim case that will get really hot! DOH !!!!

arn
Jun 28, 2011, 01:25 AM
I am not sure it's a fair comparison. I believe the latest Sony devices (still cameras, for example) support both Memory Stick and SD Cards. In this case, Sony laptop has Light peak and USB 3.0. Compare this to Apple - only Light Peak/Thunderbolt and no industry standard USB 3.0.

Well, it's not Light Peak. It's based on Lightpeak. Sony even calls it a "proprietary port". Apple does have "industry standard" USB 2.0.

arn

cactus33
Jun 28, 2011, 01:30 AM
I can see the next MBP 15" - A slim 'air' like beast w/o a disc drive and dedicated GPU. Apple would then offer a GPU+DVD Drive that looks like the current external drive for the MBA.

That is what I hope for. The tech is there. :D

bloodycape
Jun 28, 2011, 01:31 AM
Kind of makes you wonder how much faster will the video card be via Thunderbolt vs AMD/ATI XGP port, which is suppose to do similar things.

If that bezel is thin, while still having the same screen quality as the first gen i Core Z, at a fair price, I am pretty sure this will be my next computer, despite the fact I want to run OSX.

MattInOz
Jun 28, 2011, 01:46 AM
Looks like a Think Pad, no style.

The styling looks pretty good to me.
Nice shape and functional.

314631
Jun 28, 2011, 01:48 AM
I love the possibility of a 1920x1080 screen resolution in this new ultraportable 13" laptop from Sony. Suddenly the potential of the new sb MacBook Air is a lot less appealing to me. ;) The new Sony will undoubtedly cost a fortune, even more than the MBA, but if it could replace my insanely heavy 17" MBP I'd pay the premium.

ugru
Jun 28, 2011, 01:52 AM
This article disproves that you really need more than a PCI-E x4 slot to get decent performance: http://hardocp.com/article/2010/08/25/gtx_480_sli_pcie_bandwidth_perf_x16x16_vs_x4x4

The reason graphics cards use a x16 slot is mainly so the slot can safely provide enough power to the card. GPUs aren't that bandwidth starved from the bus itself.

This is quite interesting indeed!

That could mean that Thunderbolt data throughput (2x10Gbit/s) could be enough to use a Desktop Card, let's say a Radeon HD68XX, at decent framerate on a single external monitor at FullHD resolution...

Put a card like that in a box with decent cooling and power supply and a Thunderbolt equipped laptop could become an interesting gaming machine.....

johneaston
Jun 28, 2011, 01:53 AM
How is this a MacRumor? It's neither about Apple nor is it a rumour.

maclaptop
Jun 28, 2011, 01:54 AM
Finally an original idea from somebody other then Apple.

Nice try, but you might want to check the facts.

Anthony La
Jun 28, 2011, 01:56 AM
Finally an original idea from somebody other then Apple.
Having a docking station?

Nope.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_Duo

TMay
Jun 28, 2011, 02:00 AM
If Apple does intend on putting Thunderbolt on all future Macs, what kind of peripherals do they envision?

Most of Apple's Mac sales are laptops, yet the iMac and Cinema Display show that Apple believes that a large screen can provide a much better computing experience. Perhaps Thunderbolt is seen as a way to bridge between these computing experiences.

Integrating components such as a faster graphics card, large rotational drive, and even (perhaps) an optical drive into a revised Cinema Display might be interesting, although it seems slightly awkward. This kind of product would make sense as a home station for your Mac laptop, but it could be difficult to explain to potential customers. Also the typical lifespan of a display is much greater than video cards or hard drives.

An external dock seems even more uncharacteristic for Apple. I think Apple's goal with Thunderbolt is consolidation, not adding another box on your desk.

One could argue that a connection to the current iMac display should also allow use of the graphics card and cpu in the iMac, ie, the iMac is the dock, albeit an expensive one.

stanny
Jun 28, 2011, 02:05 AM
Seriously, if Apple announced something like this that worked over Thunderbolt, the MBA will be the best seller ever. It doesn't even need to be a beast of a graphic card, just something which can play medium settings on decent resolutions.

chrono1081
Jun 28, 2011, 02:05 AM
This is great. Hopefully, apple will do something similar with the air.



Are they any worse about that than apple is? I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, I'm really asking. The same has been said about apple.

Not even close. The most Apple has really done is firewire vs USB but then again firewire actually had advantages over USB.

With Sony, I have no clue where to start. Betamax, minidisk player, sony memory stick and its countless iterations (literally) that aren't compatible with its own cameras half the time, (I wont count Blu Ray since it won the battle), Atrac file format, Digital8, the list seriously goes on and on with them.

MacAddict1978
Jun 28, 2011, 02:12 AM
Apple's proprietary stuff can be licensed out and perform better than the competition. The same can't be said for Sony. Especially their expensive, slow Memory Sticks.

Not true. There are generic memory sticks on the market.

Sony doesn't just always do proprietary everything... they abandon it extremely fast and reinvent the wheel each time. No one would want to license anything from Sony because of how fast they are to drop things. Wouldn't be worth writing a business plan much less production.

Even the memory stick has seen a few form factor changes over time.

maclaptop
Jun 28, 2011, 02:15 AM
Sometimes function trumps style.

Too bad Apple took their usual path of style over function with the Antennagate special. If they would have put the antenna where it belongs, I'd be making calls with the bloody thing, tiny screen and all.

Oh well, despite massive denial & public statements "they all do that", which only made Apple look worse, perhaps next time they'll think twice before ignoring their very own engineers warning. (or not)

MacAddict1978
Jun 28, 2011, 02:16 AM
Not even close. The most Apple has really done is firewire vs USB but then again firewire actually had advantages over USB.

With Sony, I have no clue where to start. Betamax, minidisk player, sony memory stick and its countless iterations (literally) that aren't compatible with its own cameras half the time, (I wont count Blu Ray since it won the battle), Atrac file format, Digital8, the list seriously goes on and on with them.

Oh hell, throw in SACD (super audio CD) and don't forget the much loved (NOT!) digital tape and digital tape players that lasted not even a year when they had that lovely minidisk launch you already mentioned.

I don't know what is more evil of Sony... the memory stick changes or the proprietary batteries that change form factors ever year or so with the magical discontinuation of the old ones... you know... to force you into a new Cybercrap, er shot camera every 2 years.

Apple has at least had consistency. The dock connector has been safe... Sony would have changed the dongle 10 times by now.

Firewire is not a good comparison IMO. Firewire was an Apple name for a technology that was not a proprietary Apple thing. (What was the non apple name? UUE something or other?). Apple just endorsed it and integrated it more heavily. Most PC's required you buy a card. You could argue mini-display port, but again, it was just something no one else ran with when Apple did. Sony usually goes to the extreme of creating a Sony only connector, port, etc. The dock connector is the only true Apple made Apple only thing I can actually think of.

toy79111
Jun 28, 2011, 02:16 AM
If Apple were to do the same it would answer the needs of some of us. Would love a MBA that is simple for on the go... and more powerful when at home...

I think it would be great if Apple build a Graphic Card in the Apple Display!!!

subsonix
Jun 28, 2011, 02:32 AM
Not even close. The most Apple has really done is firewire vs USB but then again firewire actually had advantages over USB.



Interestingly Sony has their own implementation of FireWire known as i.Link, same protocol, different connector.

OllyW
Jun 28, 2011, 02:41 AM
How is this a MacRumor? It's neither about Apple nor is it a rumour.

Because it is highlighting technology which may be used with forthcoming Apple products...

Still, this shows some possibilities for expansion docking products for the MacBook Air or Mac mini after they get upgraded to Thunderbolt.

dr Dunkel
Jun 28, 2011, 02:50 AM
Having a docking station?

Nope.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_Duo

Apple invented the docking station?

NightFox
Jun 28, 2011, 02:56 AM
How is this a MacRumor? It's neither about Apple nor is it a rumour.

Someone I know told me that something similar will be adopted by Apple at some point in the future.

There, happy now? ;)

tombubi
Jun 28, 2011, 02:56 AM
Very cool idea, but dont know how well it works

Hellhammer
Jun 28, 2011, 03:09 AM
The limited PCIe lanes are not terribly detrimental. Tom's Hardware and TechPowerUp love to run bandwidth crippled flagship video card every time a new one rolls out. A 6650M is insignificant compared to those monsters.

6650M, sure, but a faster GPU will definitely take a hit. See e.g. this (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/pcie-geforce-gtx-480-x16-x8-x4,2696-5.html), about 50% drop in performance. PCIe x4 is still 16Gb/s so TB is even slower than that.

ugru
Jun 28, 2011, 03:22 AM
http://hardocp.com/article/2010/08/25/gtx_480_sli_pcie_bandwidth_perf_x16x16_vs_x4x4

This article seems to demonstrate the contrary....

Isn't Thunderbolt a double 10 Gb/s bus? It should be at least as fast as PC-e X4

Hellhammer
Jun 28, 2011, 03:28 AM
http://hardocp.com/article/2010/08/25/gtx_480_sli_pcie_bandwidth_perf_x16x16_vs_x4x4

This article seems to demonstrate the contrary....

See my link above as well. It seems to vary a lot. In MW2, the drop was about 50% but in Crysis there was no change. Yeah, it doesn't make much sense.

Isn't Thunderbolt a double 10 Gb/s bus? It should be at least as fast as PC-e X4

Yeah, but with limits. 10Gb/s for PCIe and 10Gb/s for DisplayPort. Only the PCIe signal can be used for transferring data between the GPU and other parts of the computer, DP is limited to video and audio.

rmwebs
Jun 28, 2011, 03:31 AM
It seems like a great idea. I wish they would just use the DisplayPort and just put up with the standard (despite it being a stupid use for DisplayPort)...they must know that Apple have a higher chance of getting ThunderBolt off the ground as its highly likely going to be a major part of future MacBooks and even iPads, iPhones and iPods.

It seems no manufacturer gives a damn about how hard it'll be for everyone to have to piddle about with all these stupid connectors, when it would be VERY easy to consolidate into a single port type.

AAPLaday
Jun 28, 2011, 03:42 AM
Sandy Bridge MBA + Beefier external graphics = Win! :D

MH01
Jun 28, 2011, 03:42 AM
Hang on, Sony used USB casue they they do not wish to pay apple liscening fees for using displayport right, how is this any different to Apple refusing to adopt blueray? Sorry but the whole industry is full of hypocrits, Apple is not exampt. To be honest the whole TB is a huge bag of hurt, USB 3 has already won, TB will be non standardised with Apple doing their own thing and TB devices will cost much more then the USB 3 alternative.

Apple has lost me as a future customer of the iMac cause of the stupid TB port, as I use my Imac as a external monitor, and the current generation does not support display mode unless the source is a TB device, typical stupid Apple move of alienating all previsous versions of hardware.

Sony themselves are plan idiots when it comes to memory cards and lost me when they made excellent MP3 players and forced thier horried software on me.

Vrism
Jun 28, 2011, 03:43 AM
still not as sexy as a macbook

ugru
Jun 28, 2011, 03:44 AM
See my link above as well. It seems to vary a lot. In MW2, the drop was about 50% but in Crysis there was no change. Yeah, it doesn't make much sense.

Yea, it really doesn't. Crysis, one of the most GPU demanding games in history, sees no real difference (less than 5%) between x16 and x4....

Yeah, but with limits. 10Gb/s for PCIe and 10Gb/s for DisplayPort. Only the PCIe signal can be used for transferring data between the GPU and other parts of the computer, DP is limited to video and audio.

Interesting, so we can assume that TB is equiparable to a PC-e x2 or so.

Hellhammer
Jun 28, 2011, 03:45 AM
Hang on, Sony used USB casue they they do not wish to pay apple liscening fees for using displayport right, how is this any different to Apple refusing to adopt blueray?

DisplayPort isn't made by Apple. It's made by VESA and it's royalty-free.

dethmaShine
Jun 28, 2011, 03:48 AM
so apple's going copy the media dock like mba copied the original vaio and chiclet keys? where are the litigation lawyers ;)


monkey see, monkey do

Firstly, where did Apple copy the dock?
Even if they did, this concept has been referred to on a number of occasions and in no way an invention.

Secondly, the MBA didn't copy the VAIO. On the other hand, the chiclet keys have existed for years and were probably first to find in a Texas Instruments calculator. I hope you were just trying to be funny.

Mr. Gates
Jun 28, 2011, 03:50 AM
14 hour Battery

Not bad

badboyprod
Jun 28, 2011, 03:55 AM
If Apple were to do the same it would answer the needs of some of us. Would love a MBA that is simple for on the go... and more powerful when at home...

+1 it will be a good answer to my need! But I am still dreaming about a screen doc, with internal hardware such as Graphic CPU, Memory and Hard drive to speed up the MBA. I am still a big fan of this mockup:
http://www.google.fr/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://www.slashgear.com/gallery/data_files/7/4/MacBook_ultraslim_docking_mockup.jpg&sa=X&ei=zpYJTrbgIMGa-gapq4zPAg&ved=0CAQQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNHJItEue1_HKsY0JDnA1MxisvmESw

HELO server
Jun 28, 2011, 03:55 AM
i wonder if it comes with the root-kit pre-installed or you have to download it first in order to boot your PC?

I personally won't buy anything that has a Sony label on it. Ever.

:mad:

AOL!

I recommended, used, and procured Sony equipment before they became bad. Both privately and on behalf of my employer. In some areas exclusively.

I stopped buying any Sony equipment/media before Sony distributed the root-kit infected CDs so I was not hit personally. Though some people I knew believed that a large company as Sony couldn't possibly do really evil acts, and did not head my advise. A few of them learned to avoid Sony the hard way, including infection of important computer equipment used for their thesis.

One person at my university managed to destroy the party throwers very expensive hi-fi equipment with a infected Sony CD. "Very popular" indeed.


If more people knew that dealing with a dodgy company might be dangerous, would it be more common to avoid the worst ones?



I know people that is affected by the Sony Other-OS scam. Sony updated the firmware and destroyed the main use they had for the Playstation, a use Sony advertised at the time they gave Sony their money.

I know of computer labs consisting of more than 1000 Playstations doing computations, that get useless units in return if they send one in for repair, as Sony "update" the firmware. I don't know if Sony does it to pretend they get fewer returns, if they do it to spite their customers, if they really does not care, or for some other odd reason.


If someone could explain to me why an producer of world class hardware turned around to be the present day Sony, I would really appreciate it.

AAPLaday
Jun 28, 2011, 03:56 AM
If Apple works this into the mac mini will be be halfway to getting the fabled xMac ;)

Skika
Jun 28, 2011, 04:05 AM
I have to admit, kinda like this.

dr Dunkel
Jun 28, 2011, 04:06 AM
DisplayPort isn't made by Apple. It's made by VESA and it's royalty-free.

Right, and now that MDP is really starting to gain in usage, maybe Apple will not have to get the blame there too.

BornAgainMac
Jun 28, 2011, 04:20 AM
I'm really curious what Apple has planned for the next version of the Cinema Display.

They will integrate the AMD Radeon HD 6490M or some low-end card built-in the monitor. :rolleyes:

Lone Deranger
Jun 28, 2011, 04:50 AM
Well, it's not Light Peak. It's based on Lightpeak. Sony even calls it a "proprietary port". Apple does have "industry standard" USB 2.0.

arn

And FireWire 800.

Stingray454
Jun 28, 2011, 05:04 AM
This is all good, and I hope Apple will do something similar. However, Sony is using optical lightpeak (or some version of it), that should offer upp to 100Gbit transfers instead of apples copper-version that does 10Gbit per channel. While it would probably still be feasible with Thunderbolt, I can't wait for Apple to start producting Lightningbolt (that will undoubtedly be the name for it) so that we can see some truly awesome docking stations with state-of-the-art graphics boards.

Anthony La
Jun 28, 2011, 05:06 AM
Does anyone else find the "based on the architecture codenamed Light Peak" to be awkward?

Hellhammer
Jun 28, 2011, 05:12 AM
This is all good, and I hope Apple will do something similar. However, Sony is using optical lightpeak (or some version of it), that should offer upp to 100Gbit transfers instead of apples copper-version that does 10Gbit per channel. While it would probably still be feasible with Thunderbolt, I can't wait for Apple to start producting Lightningbolt (that will undoubtedly be the name for it) so that we can see some truly awesome docking stations with state-of-the-art graphics boards.

Source? The codename for Thunderbolt project is/was Light Peak. Just because Sony uses that name instead of Thunderbolt doesn't mean that it's any different from Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt 2.0 is rumored to be released around 2015 and it will be 50Gb/s so I heavily doubt that Sony's implementation is faster than Apple's.

Does anyone else find the "based on the architecture codenamed Light Peak" to be awkward?

Definitely. Why not just call it Thunderbolt? Or maybe they have their own name for it, seeing that the port is different.

blackburn
Jun 28, 2011, 05:16 AM
Sony? Who cares. Everything is proprietary. Like their memory stick crap. They cost at least 3 times more than the same sd card. After experiencing the sony vaio terrible support I ask myself who is insane to buy one.

Good old days when notebooks where called laptops and they had lots of ports and they didn't toast our lap.

If every one starts making their own connectors lightpeak / thunderbolt / whatever either it will be dead or a niche product.

edit: battery life is actually 7 hours you have to add another battery to get more 7 hours. and I highly doubt that an small notebook like that can get 7 hours with an i7 cpu.

Lesser Evets
Jun 28, 2011, 05:16 AM
I've been talking about this for 3+years now. I'd figured Apple, or someone, would have done this already; Apple, being so "portable" conscious should have thoroughly plumbed the idea of a portable desktop. My figuring was that the iMac, a version of it, could go portable with a tablet and the base provides the true storage and power. With the iPad it could become a possibility, even as a third party peripheral/dock. Hope to see a lot more of this in the near future.

tatonka
Jun 28, 2011, 05:32 AM
That looks like a genius concept. Only problem I see is that Apple is going to combine it into their displays instead of keeping it a seperate item that I can use on any monitor.

Most certainly the direction the MBA is heading though and quite possibly the end of the MBP as we know it today (but that isn't before in a couple of years).

T.

Azathoth
Jun 28, 2011, 05:33 AM
monkey see, monkey do


That is a complete fanboi comment... As much as I hate Sony and their proprietary crap (Memory Stick, etc etc) - they have a huge amount of innovation going on, off the top of my head: original Red Book CD standard (with Philips), Minidisc (great idea at the time when flash memory was measured in MB), mass-production of CCD technology (at one point they were making 90% of CCDs in the DSLRs).

KPOM
Jun 28, 2011, 05:48 AM
I love the possibility of a 1920x1080 screen resolution in this new ultraportable 13" laptop from Sony. Suddenly the potential of the new sb MacBook Air is a lot less appealing to me. ;) The new Sony will undoubtedly cost a fortune, even more than the MBA, but if it could replace my insanely heavy 17" MBP I'd pay the premium.

It does appear very impressive, with a standard voltage 2.7GHz Core i7 and 256GB SSD crammed into a 2.5 lb form factor. That said, you are right that it will likely be very expensive. However, it raises the bar for the next MacBook Air. The Vaio will be out (in Europe, at least) at the end of July.

vladi
Jun 28, 2011, 05:53 AM
Sony? Who cares. Everything is proprietary. Like their memory stick crap. They cost at least 3 times more than the same sd card. After experiencing the sony vaio terrible support I ask myself who is insane to buy one.

Good old days when notebooks where called laptops and they had lots of ports and they didn't toast our lap.

If every one starts making their own connectors lightpeak / thunderbolt / whatever either it will be dead or a niche product.

edit: battery life is actually 7 hours you have to add another battery to get more 7 hours. and I highly doubt that an small notebook like that can get 7 hours with an i7 cpu.

Sony pushes a lot of stuff on the market that's true but I see that as a good thing. They really try to push the envelope and there are so many things they do and you never know its them.

Their XDCAM EXs use SxS flash cards based on Expresscard to store video. Yes they are expensive as hell but they are stupidfast and transfer to PC via Expresscard slot is such a advanced workflow that others can really dream of. Sony completely nailed it! But you don't hear nobody talking about it since its a niche product but it works like hell, I cant imagine going back to old disc technology to record video.

Chimaera
Jun 28, 2011, 05:56 AM
Oh hell, throw in SACD (super audio CD) and don't forget the much loved (NOT!) digital tape and digital tape players that lasted not even a year when they had that lovely minidisk launch you already mentioned.

I don't know what is more evil of Sony... the memory stick changes or the proprietary batteries that change form factors ever year or so with the magical discontinuation of the old ones... you know... to force you into a new Cybercrap, er shot camera every 2 years.

Apple has at least had consistency. The dock connector has been safe... Sony would have changed the dongle 10 times by now.

Firewire is not a good comparison IMO. Firewire was an Apple name for a technology that was not a proprietary Apple thing. (What was the non apple name? UUE something or other?). Apple just endorsed it and integrated it more heavily. Most PC's required you buy a card. You could argue mini-display port, but again, it was just something no one else ran with when Apple did. Sony usually goes to the extreme of creating a Sony only connector, port, etc. The dock connector is the only true Apple made Apple only thing I can actually think of.

IEEE 1394 is the name for the standard, Sony did indeed create their own connector (a four-pin unpowered connector) however that got rolled into one of the early revisions to the spec.

The design was (I think) initially started by Apple but delivered by a working group involving contributions from several other companies as well (including Sony, as it happens).

Personally I'd love to see a revised Cinema display that took advantage of the abilities of Thunderbolt - to have what is effectively a docking station built into the display with audio*, LAN**, maybe an upgraded graphics solution built in to the display. USB and FW too for that matter, IIRC you should be able to tunnel them over the thunderbolt link so long as appropriate hardware is present either side of it.

A one or two cable docking set up (TB and seperate power) would be great from a convenience point of view.

* But please for the love of god have audio out ports on the back of the display - while the current cinema display speakers are way better than any laptop they're nowhere near the standard of the desktop speakers I have on my desk already

** WiFi is great when on the move but I will *always* prefer to use a cabled LAN connection where possible.

Dagless
Jun 28, 2011, 06:00 AM
All this talk about Sony using a proprietary connector. Isn't USB a lot more common/recognisable than a Mini Display Port adapter?

Also didn't Sony only invent 1 type of memory stick - boringly named the Memory Stick? I know there are different versions of it (Pro Duo and the mini version). I don't think that's pushing it, even though SD would have been a much better choice for the PSP.

janstett
Jun 28, 2011, 06:13 AM
Sony's dock offers HDMI and Blu-Ray. Just sayin'.

janstett
Jun 28, 2011, 06:18 AM
Looks like a Think Pad, no style.

This had style. It's also terribly trendy and when it's out of style, well....

http://img.ezinemark.com/imagemanager2/files/30004252/2011/03/2011-03-31-09-45-18-5-apples-ibook-g3-not-only-owns-candy-colored-desig.jpeg

Maybe they just got the Thinkpad right from the start.

ericmooreart
Jun 28, 2011, 06:25 AM
Wow imagine a Mac mini with a decent pci video card.

Popeye206
Jun 28, 2011, 06:28 AM
Does anyone else find the "based on the architecture codenamed Light Peak" to be awkward?

Sort of sounds like "the artist formerly known as Prince". :rolleyes:

stanislaus1
Jun 28, 2011, 06:32 AM
Checked the UK pricelist, some nice CTO's I found:

8 GB Ram 110 (upgrade from 4 GB)
Backlight Keyboard 15
1920 x 1080 Resolution 40 (instead of 1600 x 900)
3G Connectivity built-in 100
Extra battery 60 (for 14 hrs total)
The Media Dock costs 400 , with BlueRay Writer 525

Nice of them to leave some decisions to the customer, unlike Apple.
Still, there's one problem: This thing runs on Windows.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MBA 11" 240 GB SSD, iPhone 2G

ghostlyorb
Jun 28, 2011, 06:34 AM
Thunderbolt has 10GBs/s transfer speed.. and it's NOT fast enough for a video card? Wow.. I didn't know that standard connectors inside a computer required 15-20+GBs/s transer speed :rolleyes:

ghostlyorb
Jun 28, 2011, 06:37 AM
IEEE 1394 is the name for the standard, Sony did indeed create their own connector (a four-pin unpowered connector) however that got rolled into one of the early revisions to the spec.

The design was (I think) initially started by Apple but delivered by a working group involving contributions from several other companies as well (including Sony, as it happens).

Personally I'd love to see a revised Cinema display that took advantage of the abilities of Thunderbolt - to have what is effectively a docking station built into the display with audio*, LAN**, maybe an upgraded graphics solution built in to the display. USB and FW too for that matter, IIRC you should be able to tunnel them over the thunderbolt link so long as appropriate hardware is present either side of it.

A one or two cable docking set up (TB and seperate power) would be great from a convenience point of view.

* But please for the love of god have audio out ports on the back of the display - while the current cinema display speakers are way better than any laptop they're nowhere near the standard of the desktop speakers I have on my desk already

** WiFi is great when on the move but I will *always* prefer to use a cabled LAN connection where possible.

I never thought about an updated ACD.. it would be cool to have speaker out.. and ethernet in on it too. And with a single cable to the mac- power everything. That would be really cool.

But whatever.. I'm still hoping for a thunderbolt adaptor for my iPhone and iPad.....

Bubba Satori
Jun 28, 2011, 06:41 AM
I'm really curious what Apple has planned for the next version of the Cinema Display.

What's a Cinema Display? A computer peripheral?

ksgant
Jun 28, 2011, 06:41 AM
i wonder if it comes with the root-kit pre-installed or you have to download it first in order to boot your PC?

I personally won't buy anything that has a Sony label on it. Ever.

:mad:

Don't know why you were voted down as this is exactly what I came here to say. With their idiotic/lackadaisical attitude toward security, I'll not buy anything from Sony in the foreseeable future.

KnightWRX
Jun 28, 2011, 06:42 AM
Still, there's one problem: This thing runs on Windows.

How is this a problem ? Is there some piece of software that has no Windows equivalent in your workflow ? Also, you do understand you don't have to run Windows on this thing, there are other OSes out there.

The hardware in this box seems pretty good. 1920x1080 13" screen, if only Apple would wake-up with their paltry resolutions (1440x900 is bare minimum on the MBA and one of the big reasons I bought it, 1280x800 is so 4 years ago).

ugru
Jun 28, 2011, 06:55 AM
All this talk about Sony using a proprietary connector. Isn't USB a lot more common/recognisable than a Mini Display Port adapter?

Yes, but is not royalty free like MDP.

Moreover USB Implementers Forum said:

"USB connectors are not general purpose connectors and are not designed to be used in support of other technology applications or standards or as combo connectors."

Sony must be paying a lot of money....

omvs
Jun 28, 2011, 06:56 AM
Thunderbolt has 10GBs/s transfer speed.. and it's NOT fast enough for a video card? Wow.. I didn't know that standard connectors inside a computer required 15-20+GBs/s transer speed :rolleyes:

10Gigabits/second. A PCIE 1.0 lane is 2.5Gbit/sec -- so you get a 4x lane. Most video cards use 16x lanes (though arguable if it needs it).

If you're talking PCIE2 or above, they're 5Gbit lanes. So yes, there's connectors inside your computer WAY faster due to parallel lanes.

Apparently there's plans for 100GBit thunderbolt - that would pretty much be sufficient. :)

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbolt_(interface)

maflynn
Jun 28, 2011, 07:10 AM
This had style. It's also terribly trendy and when it's out of style, well....

Image (http://img.ezinemark.com/imagemanager2/files/30004252/2011/03/2011-03-31-09-45-18-5-apples-ibook-g3-not-only-owns-candy-colored-desig.jpeg)

Maybe they just got the Thinkpad right from the start.

Good point, what really looks trendy today looks dated tomorrow.

KnightWRX
Jun 28, 2011, 07:17 AM
Good point, what really looks trendy today looks dated tomorrow.

Simple designs are the ones that are timeless. Like the current crop of Apple laptops (minus the tacky white one) and things like the Thinkpad and this thing.

The older colorful Sony Vaios and the iBook are both very good examples of why you shouldn't go "trendy" with electronics.

jonnysods
Jun 28, 2011, 07:26 AM
Wow, I would love one of these for my 13" MBP. Perhaps not via USB though!

baryon
Jun 28, 2011, 07:31 AM
Sony is offering a "Power Media Dock" which is an expansion module that connects to the laptop via an optical cable.

I thought thunderbolt wasn't going to be optical anytime soon?

Anyway, since Sony is allowed to use USB for Thunderbolt, why can't Apple do it? It would make things so much easier, rather than have another weird cable connector (Mini DisplayPort).

keruah
Jun 28, 2011, 08:08 AM
Many Wintel laptops have docking stations.

The "news" is using TBolt for the docking station - which brings up the possibility that Apple may finally produce a docking solution for the Apple laptops.
They won't add another device, Cinema Display is the docking solution.

Flynnstone
Jun 28, 2011, 08:11 AM
What if ......

A laptop was "light" in the processor area. Effectively built for looong battery life.
But when plugged into a Thunderbolt box (TM) ;) you had more processing power in the thunderbolt box.
Like plugging your Macbook pro into a iMac as a display device, but getting all the processing power of the iMac at your disposal ...

Mac-Michael
Jun 28, 2011, 08:13 AM
The perspective on that image is messed up, I can't take this seriously. That's one huge slot alright.

Hattig
Jun 28, 2011, 08:15 AM
I thought thunderbolt wasn't going to be optical anytime soon?

Anyway, since Sony is allowed to use USB for Thunderbolt, why can't Apple do it? It would make things so much easier, rather than have another weird cable connector (Mini DisplayPort).

Because the USB Forum said "don't use USB for non-USB protocols" and Apple said "sure thing". Sony seems to have totally ignored their request. This is a totally proprietary port and it is unlikely that many devices beside's Sony's own Dock will be available for it.

dlewis23
Jun 28, 2011, 08:21 AM
Why the hell are they using a USB connector? Are they trying to cause problems?

There Sony... I think that answers it all.

jimmueller
Jun 28, 2011, 08:26 AM
Our execs loved the PowerBook Duo & Duo Dock (http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powerbook_duo/index.html), as the laptop was tiny & light but when they got back to the office they could pop it into the Duo Dock and have their multiple screens and graphic horsepower with the add-in video cards.
Sony's may be using current tech, but the idea is from the early '90s.

Personally, I was happy at the time with my Quadra 840AV...

Elven
Jun 28, 2011, 08:44 AM
While I find this on the whole very interesting, my concern is how long the market will take to update their devices to thunderbolt, and how long Apple may hold the peripheral market.

Steve121178
Jun 28, 2011, 09:26 AM
Don't know why you were voted down as this is exactly what I came here to say. With their idiotic/lackadaisical attitude toward security, I'll not buy anything from Sony in the foreseeable future.

Why would a hack on their systems stop you buying one of their laptops?

Look at all the crap you have to provide Apple when you switch on a Mac for the first time - you think people are happy to provide all that personal info, secure or not?

Sol
Jun 28, 2011, 09:46 AM
Interestingly Sony has their own implementation of FireWire known as i.Link, same protocol, different connector.

i.Link is FireWire by another name and the connector you refer to is a four-pin Firewire cable that works with all FireWire equipped computers and peripherals. It is not a proprietary connector as you imply; it is part of the FireWire standard and the difference between it and the six-pin FireWire 400 connector is that it does not provide power.

vladi
Jun 28, 2011, 09:47 AM
How is this a problem ? Is there some piece of software that has no Windows equivalent in your workflow ? Also, you do understand you don't have to run Windows on this thing, there are other OSes out there.

The hardware in this box seems pretty good. 1920x1080 13" screen, if only Apple would wake-up with their paltry resolutions (1440x900 is bare minimum on the MBA and one of the big reasons I bought it, 1280x800 is so 4 years ago).

What are the chances turning this into hackintosh all together with the dock?

vladi
Jun 28, 2011, 09:51 AM
i.Link is FireWire by another name and the connector you refer to is a four-pin Firewire cable that works with all FireWire equipped computers and peripherals. It is not a proprietary connector as you imply; it is part of the FireWire standard and the difference between it and the six-pin FireWire 400 connector is that it does not provide power.

Yup. If you ever use RME FW audio interface four-pin connector is your lifesaver! 100% Hot-plugging safe, unlike six-pin deathbringer!

Adidas Addict
Jun 28, 2011, 09:59 AM
Messy solution IMO.

nilk
Jun 28, 2011, 10:50 AM
so apple's going copy the media dock like mba copied the original vaio and chiclet keys? where are the litigation lawyers ;)


And Sony was copying the IBM PCjr's horrible chicklet keyboard? :)

chrmjenkins
Jun 28, 2011, 10:58 AM
For the GPU comment, it's worth pointing out that even the highest end graphics cards don't show a performance hit from being on an 8x lane versus a 16x lane, so you're only a little over 3x worse off relying on TB instead of standard PCIe 2.0 x8 ;)

Minimoose 360
Jun 28, 2011, 11:03 AM
Finally an original idea from somebody other then Apple.


Still, there's one problem: This thing runs on Windows.


http://i.imgur.com/T2DMN.png

subsonix
Jun 28, 2011, 11:12 AM
i.Link is FireWire by another name and the connector you refer to is a four-pin Firewire cable that works with all FireWire equipped computers and peripherals. It is not a proprietary connector as you imply; it is part of the FireWire standard and the difference between it and the six-pin FireWire 400 connector is that it does not provide power.

I did not imply that it was proprietary, but it wont fit in a regular FireWire socket. Also if your peripheral is being powered over FireWire it obviously wont work either, it's from a part of this thread where comments where being made about Sony's different choices of connectors.

Adey
Jun 28, 2011, 11:16 AM
One of the neatest ideas I've seen.

On a computer that (on the face of that photo) is so ugly I wouldn't give it house room.

nilk
Jun 28, 2011, 11:16 AM
Thunderbolt has 10GBs/s transfer speed.. and it's NOT fast enough for a video card? Wow.. I didn't know that standard connectors inside a computer required 15-20+GBs/s transer speed :rolleyes:

Edit: I think my entire premise here is flawed because it assumes video data travels over Thunderbolt when the scenario I describe you would connect the monitors to the video card, so data transmitting to the monitors is irrelevant. What's more relevant would be the instructions sent to the video card, but that would be hard to quantify without an understanding of how video card drivers work, etc. However, in the case where the video data does go back through the Thunderbolt interface (as in a laptop display powered by an external graphics card), I'm thinking the amount of bandwidth available would sufficient.

Let's do the math and see if we can figure this out. Granted I lack a true understanding of how data is actually delivered to the monitor, so this is a bit of guesswork. Let's initially assume that each pixel requires an 8-bit byte for color data (which is more than likely wrong, but we're estimating conservatively).

Say you have a single 2560x1600 monitor and you want to deliver data to it at 60 frames per second. So the number of bytes per second you have to transfer:

2560x1600x60 = 245.76 MB/s (B for bytes, not bits)

Thunderbolt delivers 10 Gbit/s. Since I'm talking in bytes, we need to convert this to that. Let's assume 8-bit bytes, Thunderbolt delivers 1.25 Gbytes/s.

We're looking pretty good so far, but let's be less conservative and say instead that each pixel needs 24-bits of data. So we triple our estimate to about 735 MB/s. Add a second 2560x1600 monitor and we're at 1.47 GB/s and we've already exceeded Thunderbolt's capabilities. Through in latency, protocol overhead, and the possibility of other Thunderbolt devices needing a chunk of the bandwidth and things look even more constrained.

They are talking about high end video cards here, so it's not unreasonable to talk about multiple 2560x1600 monitors. So it's probably good enough for typical users, but maybe not for completely ridiculous multi-huge-monitor gaming setups.

nilk
Jun 28, 2011, 11:47 AM
Looks like a Think Pad, no style.

The Thinkpad series may not be stylish, but it excels in design (at least the IBM-era ones did, I haven't used a Lenovo-era Thinkpad). I experienced the difference when I switched from an old IBM Thinkpad 23 to a Macbook Pro.

The Thinkpad had a nice smooth slope at the edge where your wrists rest (whereas MBP has a sharp edge that is uncomfortable, though I got used to it eventually), the monitor folds back much further so that you can have it almost parallel with the keyboard (useful for sitting in awkward positions), the Trackpoint beats even Apple's touchpad (which is the best touchpads I've ever used). The Thinkpad took a beating like no Macbook ever could, and it's still running fine. Later models have drains so if you spill something on the keyboard, it just drains out of the bottom. Models with optical drives you can easily swap out the optical drives for an additional battery or a second hard drive.

I love my MBPs, but I have to be more careful with them (both MBPs I use have dents and one has a misaligned lid), though magsafe has prevented some accidents. If I could run OS X on a Thinkpad without any issue, I probably would. Of course I care much more about design and function than style. My girlfriend uses my Thinkpad now, and though we plan to get her a MacBook Air or Pro at some point, she prefers the Trackpoint as well and is going to miss it.

-LikesMac-
Jun 28, 2011, 12:45 PM
Let's do the math and see if we can figure this out. Granted I lack a true understanding of how data is actually delivered to the monitor, so this is a bit of guesswork. Let's initially assume that each pixel requires an 8-bit byte for color data (which is more than likely wrong, but we're estimating conservatively).

Say you have a single 2560x1600 monitor and you want to deliver data to it at 60 frames per second. So the number of bytes per second you have to transfer:

2560x1600x60 = 245.76 MB/s (B for bytes, not bits)

Thunderbolt delivers 10 Gbit/s. Since I'm talking in bytes, we need to convert this to that. Let's assume 8-bit bytes, Thunderbolt delivers 1.25 Gbytes/s.

We're looking pretty good so far, but let's be less conservative and say instead that each pixel needs 24-bits of data. So we triple our estimate to about 735 MB/s. Add a second 2560x1600 monitor and we're at 1.47 GB/s and we've already exceeded Thunderbolt's capabilities. Through in latency, protocol overhead, and the possibility of other Thunderbolt devices needing a chunk of the bandwidth and things look even more constrained.

They are talking about high end video cards here, so it's not unreasonable to talk about multiple 2560x1600 monitors. So it's probably good enough for typical users, but maybe not for completely ridiculous multi-huge-monitor gaming setups.

Intel annnounced earlier that LightPeak (now Thunderbolt) can be scaled up to 100Gbps....I want to see Thunderbolt scaled up to 100Gbps XD good for external GPU

Yaboze
Jun 28, 2011, 01:13 PM
That 13.1" Sony has a 1600x900 display and 8GB, maybe Apple can "borrow" that idea. :D

stevenpa
Jun 28, 2011, 01:37 PM
The laptop is great but why such a poor graphics card? At this pricepoint they could have included a 6970 or 6770 at least.

chrmjenkins
Jun 28, 2011, 01:51 PM
The laptop is great but why such a poor graphics card? At this pricepoint they could have included a 6970 or 6770 at least.

Bandwidth/cost/power/thermal/market demographic.

Hellhammer
Jun 28, 2011, 01:57 PM
AnandTech's analysis on this is also out: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4474/sony-updates-vaio-z-thinner-lighter-light-peak-and-external-gpu

deconstruct60
Jun 28, 2011, 02:14 PM
Sony just announced (http://presscentre.sony.eu/content/detail.aspx?ReleaseID=6836&NewsAreaId=2) a new ultra-thin 13.1" notebook that integrates Thunderbolt in a unique way.


This may end up like eSATA/USB ports. Perhaps used but never officially approved by the standards bodies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESATA/USB

Of course, Thunderbolt doesn't even has a standards body so that wouldn't be unusal at this point. There is nothing stopping the other proprietary dock connector implementation from flipping to TB/fiber but wrapping the connection in a proprietary connect to keep the market segmentation.

bloody
Jun 28, 2011, 02:15 PM
Whelp I'm sold, the sheer amount of high end components they manage to cram into something lighter than a Macbook Air is quite impressive.

macjonny1
Jun 28, 2011, 02:22 PM
I think this is a great idea and would love to see a macbook air with this kind of tech. Light and portable when I need it, but with the power to play games,etc when docked.

chrmjenkins
Jun 28, 2011, 02:30 PM
AnandTech's analysis on this is also out: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4474/sony-updates-vaio-z-thinner-lighter-light-peak-and-external-gpu

So modest. ;)

lilo777
Jun 28, 2011, 02:33 PM
The fact that Sony's LightPeak port doubles as USB 3.0 when not connected to the docking station is a great solution. Probably makes much more sense than the use of MiniDP for Thunderbolt port by Apple.

chrmjenkins
Jun 28, 2011, 02:37 PM
The fact that Sony's LightPeak port doubles as USB 3.0 when not connected to the docking station is a great solution. Probably makes much more sense than the use of MiniDP for Thunderbolt port by Apple.

That's debatable. Apple is counting on your TB/DP device having a TB/DP port of its own to daisy chain (because you're using apple displays after all right... RIGHT?).

Not that TB/USB3 is bad. Somewhat similar to the combo eSATA/USB2 ports you see.

Joe The Dragon
Jun 28, 2011, 02:48 PM
Let's do the math and see if we can figure this out. Granted I lack a true understanding of how data is actually delivered to the monitor, so this is a bit of guesswork. Let's initially assume that each pixel requires an 8-bit byte for color data (which is more than likely wrong, but we're estimating conservatively).

Say you have a single 2560x1600 monitor and you want to deliver data to it at 60 frames per second. So the number of bytes per second you have to transfer:

2560x1600x60 = 245.76 MB/s (B for bytes, not bits)

Thunderbolt delivers 10 Gbit/s. Since I'm talking in bytes, we need to convert this to that. Let's assume 8-bit bytes, Thunderbolt delivers 1.25 Gbytes/s.

We're looking pretty good so far, but let's be less conservative and say instead that each pixel needs 24-bits of data. So we triple our estimate to about 735 MB/s. Add a second 2560x1600 monitor and we're at 1.47 GB/s and we've already exceeded Thunderbolt's capabilities. Through in latency, protocol overhead, and the possibility of other Thunderbolt devices needing a chunk of the bandwidth and things look even more constrained.

They are talking about high end video cards here, so it's not unreasonable to talk about multiple 2560x1600 monitors. So it's probably good enough for typical users, but maybe not for completely ridiculous multi-huge-monitor gaming setups.

but an other thing you need to look at the open cl and that can be slowed down by a small link. Now some one needs to do tests with a card at x4 x8 x16 running open CL apps.

ksgant
Jun 28, 2011, 03:06 PM
Why would a hack on their systems stop you buying one of their laptops?


It's not all the "hacks" (besides which, they stored customer info and passwords in a plain text files. I mean, seriously....this is blatant idiocy on their part). It's also them purposefully installing a root-kit on music CD's, one that could easily be exploitable and they user didn't even know it was there. Sure, this was 6 years ago and they took holy hell for it, but who KNOWS what these guys are thinking or what they put on these laptops.

As I say, they're lackadaisical concerns for security that they've demonstrated over the past half-decade is enough to say "no more". But hey, give em a shot. maybe this will be the time nothing bad happens.

vladi
Jun 28, 2011, 03:20 PM
From what I've read it's using optical cable for the dock, unlike TB. So its a first implementation of Lightpeak and optical cabels I guess.

Hellhammer
Jun 28, 2011, 03:23 PM
From what I've read it's using optical cable for the dock, unlike TB. So its a first implementation of Lightpeak and optical cabels I guess.

Source? I have read zero indications of this. Some people make the wrong conclusion because Sony uses the Light Peak name instead of Thunderbolt.

macjonny1
Jun 28, 2011, 03:33 PM
It's not all the "hacks" (besides which, they stored customer info and passwords in a plain text files. I mean, seriously....this is blatant idiocy on their part). It's also them purposefully installing a root-kit on music CD's, one that could easily be exploitable and they user didn't even know it was there. Sure, this was 6 years ago and they took holy hell for it, but who KNOWS what these guys are thinking or what they put on these laptops.
.

I'm sure there is something even more sinister than a rootkit on these computers.....Windows

SilianRail
Jun 28, 2011, 03:42 PM
2560x1600x60 = 245.76 MB/s (B for bytes, not bits)That's for a black screen. Most people want 32 bits of color.

So it's 2560*1600*60*32 =7.8 Gbps = 983 MB/s

rjohnstone
Jun 28, 2011, 04:08 PM
The Thinkpad series may not be stylish, but it excels in design (at least the IBM-era ones did, I haven't used a Lenovo-era Thinkpad). I experienced the difference when I switched from an old IBM Thinkpad 23 to a Macbook Pro.

The Thinkpad had a nice smooth slope at the edge where your wrists rest (whereas MBP has a sharp edge that is uncomfortable, though I got used to it eventually), the monitor folds back much further so that you can have it almost parallel with the keyboard (useful for sitting in awkward positions), the Trackpoint beats even Apple's touchpad (which is the best touchpads I've ever used). The Thinkpad took a beating like no Macbook ever could, and it's still running fine. Later models have drains so if you spill something on the keyboard, it just drains out of the bottom. Models with optical drives you can easily swap out the optical drives for an additional battery or a second hard drive.

I love my MBPs, but I have to be more careful with them (both MBPs I use have dents and one has a misaligned lid), though magsafe has prevented some accidents. If I could run OS X on a Thinkpad without any issue, I probably would. Of course I care much more about design and function than style. My girlfriend uses my Thinkpad now, and though we plan to get her a MacBook Air or Pro at some point, she prefers the Trackpoint as well and is going to miss it.
The Lenovo Think Pads are just as nice, if not better.
I use a T410 daily for work and LOVE it.
Core i5 cpu with 8GB of ram running Win7 Enterprise. Smooth as silk

Will take it over ANY other notebook, including our beloved Apple products.

macjonny1
Jun 28, 2011, 04:13 PM
The Lenovo Think Pads are just as nice, if not better.
I use a T410 daily for work and LOVE it.
Core i5 cpu with 8GB of ram running Win7 Enterprise. Smooth as silk

Will take it over ANY other notebook, including our beloved Apple products.

Wow I have used many a thinkpad with my work and have never been impressed. Now we moved over to elite books by HP with core i5s and Win7 as well. Pathetically slow compared to my MBA running a C2D. I do like the eraser head though!

I rebooted my MBA next to my HP the other day. My MBA was restarted before my HP was even down.

Hellhammer
Jun 28, 2011, 04:23 PM
I rebooted my MBA next to my HP the other day. My MBA was restarted before my HP was even down.

That is because your MBA has an SSD whereas your HP has a regular HD. Put them next to each other while doing video encoding for instance. The HP will be done when your MBA is still encoding the beginning credits.

rjohnstone
Jun 28, 2011, 04:24 PM
Wow I have used many a thinkpad with my work and have never been impressed. Now we moved over to elite books by HP with core i5s and Win7 as well. Pathetically slow compared to my MBA running a C2D. I do like the eraser head though!

I rebooted my MBA next to my HP the other day. My MBA was restarted before my HP was even down.
Sounds like your company may be using a custom built software package.

My company has pre-built images for our laptops and most flat out suck.
They have more "monitoring" software and have disabled many of the features that make a system run smoothly.
None are truly optimized for the hardware they are installed on.
Employees have about 6 different models of laptops to choose from.

I'm fortunate to be part of the pool of employees they test images on.
My laptop is pretty much straight out of the box Win 7 Enterprise with very little company tweaks.
They loaded McAfee on it and the performance dropped like a stone. :eek:
Real shocker I know. :rolleyes:
Removed and it screams again.
Using an alternative antivirus program that actually works without killing the laptop.
Hopefully it will make it into the final build and we can toss McAfee in the can.

macjonny1
Jun 28, 2011, 04:28 PM
Sounds like your company may be using a custom built software package.

My company has pre-built images for our laptops and most flat out suck.
They have more "monitoring" software and have disabled many of the features that make a system run smoothly.
None are truly optimized for the hardware they are installed on.
Employees have about 6 different models of laptops to choose from.

I'm fortunate to be part of the pool of employees they test images on.
My laptop is pretty much straight out of the box Win 7 Enterprise with very little company tweaks.
They loaded McAfee on it and the performance dropped like a stone. :eek:
Real shocker I know. :rolleyes:
Removed and it screams again.
Using an alternative antivirus program that actually works without killing the laptop.
Hopefully it will make it into the final build and we can toss McAfee in the can.

Hmmmm...that makes sense. ALso as far as the rebooting Hellhammer I know it's because of the SSD but it also makes it a great experience for light apps. I have a 2011 MBP for video encoding...I know from my old C2D 17" that it would be a painful process. I didn't even attempt editing video from my Canon 5DII on my old computer!

Tiger8
Jun 28, 2011, 04:57 PM
Betamax all over again!

rjohnstone
Jun 28, 2011, 05:03 PM
Betamax all over again!
Sony is 1 and 1 in the format wars.

They lost the BetaMax vs. VHS war, but they won the BluRay vs. HD-DVD war.

MagnusVonMagnum
Jun 28, 2011, 05:30 PM
Now THAT is pretty sweet. Oh wait...it's a Sony. What? Apple isn't interested in docks or faster GPUs? What a shock. :eek:

GFLPraxis
Jun 28, 2011, 06:12 PM
Sony is 1 and 1 in the format wars.

They lost the BetaMax vs. VHS war, but they won the BluRay vs. HD-DVD war.

You forgot the Digital Audio Tape, Minidisc, UMD, Memory Stick....

rjohnstone
Jun 28, 2011, 06:30 PM
You forgot the Digital Audio Tape, Minidisc, UMD, Memory Stick....
I still use DAT's in the studio.
MD and Memory Sticks sucked.

MacSince1990
Jun 28, 2011, 06:57 PM
In related news, hackers around the globe announced they're eagerly awaiting everything Sony will release.

That was almost funny.

Hmm... 10 Gbps is about 25% faster than AGP 4X. Kind of crazy how far we've come; AGP was never a bottleneck when it was still in use.

Osamede
Jun 28, 2011, 07:05 PM
There is a lot of hating going on here. Could it simply be raw green eyed rage that the Sony blows away anything that Apple will produce in this size range. I suspect so.

The Sony Z is a legendary laptop and in that series Sony has over the years done it all well before Apple. Give them their credit and grow up, folks. There is a point where one can overdo the home fan mentality. You can enjoy your apple products without hating on other companies.

MacSince1990
Jun 28, 2011, 07:16 PM
There is a lot of hating going on here. Could it simply be raw green eyed rage that the Sony blows away anything that Apple will produce in this size range. I suspect so.

The Sony Z is a legendary laptop and in that series Sony has over the years done it all well before Apple. Give them their credit and grow up, folks. There is a point where one can overdo the home fan mentality. You can enjoy your apple products without hating on other companies.

Definitely agree.

Although no Sony laptop shall ever rival the sheer power and elegance of the PowerBook 3400c :)

KnightWRX
Jun 28, 2011, 07:21 PM
Sony is 1 and 1 in the format wars.

They lost the BetaMax vs. VHS war, but they won the BluRay vs. HD-DVD war.

What about the CD ? DVD ? 3 1/2 floppy disks ? Betacam ? Sony has more than 1 notch on their format belt. ;)

Erasmus
Jun 28, 2011, 08:28 PM
What if ......

A laptop was "light" in the processor area. Effectively built for looong battery life.
But when plugged into a Thunderbolt box (TM) ;) you had more processing power in the thunderbolt box.
Like plugging your Macbook pro into a iMac as a display device, but getting all the processing power of the iMac at your disposal ...

If the box had its own RAM, maybe. If not, then no. Light Peak barely has enough bandwidth to supply model data to a GPU. There's no way it could supplant the interconnect between system RAM and a CPU.

There is a lot of hating going on here. Could it simply be raw green eyed rage that the Sony blows away anything that Apple will produce in this size range. I suspect so.

The Sony Z is a legendary laptop and in that series Sony has over the years done it all well before Apple. Give them their credit and grow up, folks. There is a point where one can overdo the home fan mentality. You can enjoy your apple products without hating on other companies.

I don't hate Sony. I just hate that laptop. Don't worry, I also hate MacBook Airs.

It makes no sense to me why you would want a tiny, underpowered notebook like this, which needs to be plugged into a much larger unit to provide a large part of its functionality, when one can just buy a MacBook Pro, and get something that ALWAYS performs significantly better than the Sony.

Tiger8
Jun 28, 2011, 09:28 PM
Sony is 1 and 1 in the format wars.

They lost the BetaMax vs. VHS war, but they won the BluRay vs. HD-DVD war.
Unlike Betamax, they were not solo in the Blu-Ray war, also they barely had the chance to enjoy their victory when steaming and digital media went mainstream.

Blu-Ray sales are not even close to those of DVDs, and DVDs are over a decade old

roocka
Jun 28, 2011, 09:28 PM
This is great. I believe Apple will start making the MacBook Pro without an optical drive and will make it super thin, yet more powerful than the MacBook Air. The only other think I am hoping for is Liquidmetal...

cmaier
Jun 28, 2011, 09:31 PM
This is great. I believe Apple will start making the MacBook Pro without an optical drive and will make it super thin, yet more powerful than the MacBook Air. The only other think I am hoping for is Liquidmetal...

Why? For bragging rights? How exactly will that make it a better product?

MagnusVonMagnum
Jun 28, 2011, 10:14 PM
Unlike Betamax, they were not solo in the Blu-Ray war, also they barely had the chance to enjoy their victory when steaming and digital media went mainstream.

By mainstream, I assume you are referring to mass pirating? Because otherwise, in what UNIVERSE is HD (let alone 1080p HD) streaming commercially "mainstream"? :rolleyes:


Blu-Ray sales are not even close to those of DVDs, and DVDs are over a decade old

You just answered your own reply against yourself. Or do you think DVDs replaced VHS and LD literally overnight? If you look at the pace at which DVDs took to become mainstream and figure that BD requires HD sets on the part of the viewer (unlike DVD which used NTSC which was several decades old already), Blu-Ray is WAY ahead of the game. DVDs didn't become huge until the prices started coming down. They didn't sell so great at $30 a pop. They sell like gangbusters at $5-15 a pop. If you look at individual BD sales, they always seem to outsell DVD when they're offered on sale at DVD type prices.

But like Apple with everything they sell, they don't LIKE selling at discount prices. They want to maximize profits. Apple realized they don't need to sell 100 million computers or iPhones to make a ton of money since the profit margins are so darn high. If they were forced to compete, their prices would have to come down and so would their profit margins.

Until you can buy high quality 1080p movies online with a large selection, there's going to be a place for Blu-Ray, like it or not.

nate13
Jun 28, 2011, 11:03 PM
Where I see this going?

Thunderbolt in an "iPhone", which syncs to your cloud, ensures that your user experience is continuous with all devices. Then- thanks to thunderbolt- you can plug your iPhone into a display with a video card and a small SSD, and you have a full computer. Think about it: 64-128 GB storage+ cloud, dual core processor, iOS/"Lion" interface, wireless peripherals, price point for a 27 inch computer less than $1000 (-iProduct).

The new trend of things, at least in my opinion, will see us using our 'personal processors' in ways that trancend the traditional 20th century technology cycle. Your phone is your computer is your camera is your television is your boombox is your car. Tech like thunderbolt will make that a reality! :p

AidenShaw
Jun 28, 2011, 11:04 PM
Until you can buy high quality 1080p movies online with a large selection, there's going to be a place for Blu-Ray, like it or not.

Let me fix this....

Until you can buy high quality 1080p movies online with a large selection and have a high speed connection without a bandwidth cap

If my connection could sustain 50 Mbps without a cap, my selfish opinion would be that digital downloads were here. It can't, and they're not.

LarryC
Jun 28, 2011, 11:22 PM
Where I see this going?

Thunderbolt in an "iPhone", which syncs to your cloud, ensures that your user experience is continuous with all devices. Then- thanks to thunderbolt- you can plug your iPhone into a display with a video card and a small SSD, and you have a full computer. Think about it: 64-128 GB storage+ cloud, dual core processor, iOS/"Lion" interface, wireless peripherals, price point for a 27 inch computer less than $1000 (-iProduct).

The new trend of things, at least in my opinion, will see us using our 'personal processors' in ways that trancend the traditional 20th century technology cycle. Your phone is your computer is your camera is your television is your boombox is your car. Tech like thunderbolt will make that a reality! :p

I was with you almost till the end. Your Phone is your computer. OK possible I guess.

Your phone is your camera. OK, we are already seeing that to some extent.

Television? With a crappy small screen. The same problem as with your phone being your computer.

Boombox. I could possibly even see that, albeit with crappy speakers.

But when you get to the part about the phone also being your car? Unless I am greatly misunderstanding you. This is where I have to say that this is going just a wee bit too far. Yep, this is the part where this just doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think that even Steve Jobs and his maniacal views of world domination could grasp this one.

mark28
Jun 29, 2011, 03:46 AM
Funny... I got tweeted this article before it was up on the webpage... Refreshed it a few times.

Why the hell are they using a USB connector? Are they trying to cause problems?

The original Light Peak by Intel also used a USB interface with Optical. Sony simply implemented the original Light Peak and not Thunderbolt.

Tiger8
Jun 29, 2011, 07:34 AM
By mainstream, I assume you are referring to mass pirating? Because otherwise, in what UNIVERSE is HD (let alone 1080p HD) streaming commercially "mainstream"? :rolleyes:


Netflix, Amazon, Vodu, iTunes, Hulu, and the list grows. Heck, even HBO and a dozen cable operators have HD Apps now. The days of 'collecting' VHS / DVDs / BluRays and displaying them on a massive entertainment center are over. Just like digital download took over CD sales, Blu-Ray is on its way out.

Some people saw it three years ago. Here: http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9877031-7.html:

Blu-ray won't enjoy the same decade-long dominance DVD did after it succeeded VHS. But that's not because there will be other challenger physical disc formats. Rather, instead of buying discs from Amazon, Best Buy or Wal-Mart, people will begin getting their entertainment in the form of digital downloads in larger volumes.


You just answered your own reply against yourself. Or do you think DVDs replaced VHS and LD literally overnight?

They did not, but you know what? All I know is that four years down the line, DVDs outsold VHS, bar none. VHS was history. Blu-Ray has been around for over 6 years now and it still hasn't done that. If it did, how come movies are still coming out on DVD and Blu-Ray? Why not only Blu-Ray? And yes, of course when you price it the same price as the DVD people will buy the Blu-Ray, there is no question. But show me your figures that support your claim that 'blu-ray is ahead of the game'. It is not, and it won't be because like I said, digital media is gaining momentum.

So really, Blu-Ray is a victory, but not as big as you claim it is. And definitely not big enough to offset the Betamax failure. And I am being nice by not pointing out the gazillion audio formats (includign the 3.5 floppy disk) Sony tried to use. There was a time when Sony was relevant...

KnightWRX
Jun 29, 2011, 07:38 AM
Why? For bragging rights? How exactly will that make it a better product?

People seem to be under the impression that Liquid Metal is black. Of course, that's a big mistake based on a few doctored images and people not knowing about anodized aluminium, which I'm wondering why Apple hasn't used at this point to ship Chromatic Macs, to match their tacky iPod nano line-up.

nate13
Jun 29, 2011, 07:47 AM
I was with you almost till the end. Your Phone is your computer. OK possible I guess.

Your phone is your camera. OK, we are already seeing that to some extent.

Television? With a crappy small screen. The same problem as with your phone being your computer.

Boombox. I could possibly even see that, albeit with crappy speakers.

But when you get to the part about the phone also being your car? Unless I am greatly misunderstanding you. This is where I have to say that this is going just a wee bit too far. Yep, this is the part where this just doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think that even Steve Jobs and his maniacal views of world domination could grasp this one.

I kinda tacked the car on for shock value :D

But actually I was not going too farfetched, we already do it to some extent. The image I had was just like a dock in your car (yet with NFC and all the wonderful wireless tech it wouldn't be necessary), and would act as keys, music library, diagnostics (at least upload info to a dealer and download for personal work), and a secondary computing system (could run the Nav/ Entertainment screen). Phones have that wonderful anywhere data access thing going on, I feel that a car could really leverage that... while offsetting as much cost by outsourcing and integrating (iOS/ personal computing) devices.

As for TV; thats here too. I understand the small screen size- I more meant that with the way the :apple: TV is going, it's only going to more heavily integrate with your personal iOS device (how exactly I couldn't hope to tell you, I don't watch TV)

Maybe is what I was trying to say is that we'll see a broader range of 'peripherals' for computers as the computers are more and more universal and portable. Outsource the user experience and the computing power, reinvest that money into high tech features that leverage said computer.

(oh, and I think Steve has had some pretty wicked dreams about the future, seeing as he's a billionaire and running the worlds largest tech firm... ;) )

MagnusVonMagnum
Jun 29, 2011, 09:53 AM
Blu-ray won't enjoy the same decade-long dominance DVD did after it succeeded VHS. But that's not because there will be other challenger physical disc formats. Rather, instead of buying discs from Amazon, Best Buy or Wal-Mart, people will begin getting their entertainment in the form of digital downloads in larger volumes.


It's always cheaper to pirate than pay for Blu-Ray, yes. ;) That is where 98% of HD streaming is done right now on Torrent and other sites. I'm all for free HD in every conceivable format, but it seems the movie companies and various agencies don't care too much for it for some odd reason.

For digital downloads to succeed legally, they need an unlimited rental plan like Netflix has and enough people with high bandwidth to make it work. Personally I think Netflix sucks hard. Their selection is always limited to a fractions of available content (rotates month by month) and so you CANNOT watch what you WANT to watch WHEN you want to watch it. AppleTV does much better, but rentals are expensive if you watch a lot of movies (and don't come down much even when they're old).

Buying movies online is a RIP-OFF compared to BD since they typically cost as much or even sometimes MORE than a BD and yet you don't have a physical medium, your movies are tagged so you cannot sell them or use them on other people's equipment (no re-sale value); they use inferior audio formats (ATV for example is only Dolby Digital, same as DVD) and sometimes they lack extras. Buying a BD usually means you get a digital copy for FREE with it, plus you can re-sell the BD disc itself and it will play on anyone's BD player. Until streaming (not pirated) addresses these concerns, they will be limited to those that hate discs, menus, etc. (although once you start adding extras back in, menus start appearing again ala iTunes Extras, but at least the movies themselves have been unfettered thus far with FBI warnings, previews, etc.)

The other thing about streaming is that it affects DVDs too. DVDs are just as irrelevant in light of streaming (more so in that SD video takes less time to download and thus slower connections work better). What keeps DVDs selling at Wal-Mart are their CHEAP prices. They are 'grab' items at the cash register now for goodness sake. If BD was that cheap, they'd be selling much better too.


They did not, but you know what? All I know is that four years down the line, DVDs outsold VHS, bar none. VHS was history.


The local video store down the street from here still rents VHS tapes so define "history". They were available for sale long after DVDs came about. It's funny how people's memories cloud reality, but DVDs were introduced so long ago, it's not hard to imagine why.

VHS was never really a buyer's format, let alone a home theater enthusiast's format, though. The quality was god-awful and got worse over time. Real home theater buffs back then (there were a lot less due to high prices for equipment and titles) bought Laserdisc, not VHS. VHS was largely a rental format over most of its history. I remember when new VHS releases cost $80 until a sufficient rental time passed (Laserdiscs seemed cheap at $45 by comparison and at near-DVD quality on a good player). Plus you had to rewind tapes; they had no extras, etc. They were very poor value. They wore out over time (DVDs will last a lifetime if taken care of) and so BD's only major advantage over DVD is resolution and many people lack the televisions capable of really showing that advantage, especially when BDs are priced so much higher (Laserdisc didn't sell well at $35-50 either, even among LD owners as most can't afford to buy a ton of movies at those prices). And so ultimately, the PRICE of the movie is what determined a winning format. DVD was an improvement over laserdisc, but not by leaps and bounds. The primary differences was that DVDs were a LOT cheaper and a LOT more compact.

DVD quality was like a revelation by comparison (you couldn't miss it) and it didn't require a new TV set to enjoy it and at the time piracy over the Net was pretty limited compared to today (and let's face it, Napster proved MOST of the world's population would rather get it for free than pay for it and apparently most do not equate downloading copyrighted material with stealing or we wouldn't have seen 85% on online user figures on illegal MP3 downloads).

Blu-Ray also had the HD-DVD format war to contend with that didn't happen with DVD. Blu-Ray is a tough sale (but still outpacing DVD in a time-frame comparison) because it requires a brand new TV (and not just any TV; it has to be large enough to see the quality improvement at a given viewing distance relative to the viewer's living room) in many cases to appreciate the quality difference and that quality difference the ONLY real thing going for it over DVD. That doesn't make it pointless. Streaming has potential, but 1080p at Blu-Ray quality levels isn't exactly real-time streaming for most of the world's population (you need 50+gbps consistent). Otherwise, you're just waiting for a download and it comes down to whether it'd be faster to drive over to Wal-Mart than wait 4-6 hours for Vudu to finish downloading....


Blu-Ray has been around for over 6 years now and it still hasn't done that. If it did, how come movies are still coming out on DVD and Blu-Ray? Why


How long did VHS movies come out after DVD was introduced? I'm sorry, but your comparisons don't give much thought to the past at all. If you want to provide some side-by-side graphs of DVD versus VHS over time versus BD versus DVD over time, it'd be a little more interesting than just listening to you whine about how Blu-Ray sucks and Hulu rulez.


not only Blu-Ray? And yes, of course when you price it the same price as the DVD people will buy the Blu-Ray, there is no question. But show me your figures that support your claim that 'blu-ray is ahead of the game'. It is not, and it won't be because like I said, digital media is gaining momentum.


While difficult to find graphs online for some reason, here is an adoption graph for year 3: http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadgethd.com/media/2009/01/cesbda-0008.jpg

There is a graph inside this PDF up until year 5 and BD is ahead until year 5 where DVD slightly surpasses it and that is despite all BD's setbacks (format war with HD-DVD, smaller differences versus DVD compared to DVD versus VHS and requirement of HDTV to see the difference). All in all it's not been doing bad at all given the obvious there. When you factor in digital streaming to boot, it's doing far better than it should, by your calculations. When disc prices come down further, DVD will become irrelevant, especially if they start including them with all BD purchases eventually (for the car, for example).

http://www.media-tech.net/fileadmin/templates/association/pdf/enews/Las_Vegas_2011/Victor_Matsuda_BDA.pdf


So really, Blu-Ray is a victory, but not as big as you claim it is. And definitely not big enough to offset the Betamax failure. And I am being nice by not
pointing out the gazillion audio formats (includign the 3.5 floppy disk) Sony tried to use. There was a time when Sony was relevant...

WTF does Betamax have to do with anything? I thought this was about Blu-Ray versus streaming? BD already won the format war against HD-DVD. You're comparing Apples to Oranges.

toke lahti
Jun 29, 2011, 10:05 AM
But the point surely is that the USB bunch specifically told intel that a USB port is not to be used for non-USB protocols. An alternative was found (by Apple, anyway), and now Sony decide; um... To be idiots.
Since you need usb connectors on computers anyway, it is simplier to use them for LP also. That way you only need one type of connector, whereas macbook needs 2.
Sony made better choise by not minding the usb forum rules.
Apple has done the same thing for many connectors.
I personally won't buy anything that has a Sony label on it. Ever.
Like music from iTunesSore?
Apple has at least had consistency. The dock connector has been safe... Sony would have changed the dongle 10 times by now.
What dock connector are you talking about?
The one that Apple offered for 2 years in last millenium?
What a consistency...
Why not just call it Thunderbolt? Or maybe they have their own name for it, seeing that the port is different.
They are not calling it Thunderbolt because it isn't Thunderbolt.
Netflix, Amazon, Vodu, iTunes, Hulu, and the list grows. Heck, even HBO and a dozen cable operators have HD Apps now. The days of 'collecting' VHS / DVDs / BluRays and displaying them on a massive entertainment center are over. Just like digital download took over CD sales, Blu-Ray is on its way out.

They did not, but you know what? All I know is that four years down the line, DVDs outsold VHS, bar none. VHS was history. Blu-Ray has been around for over 6 years now and it still hasn't done that. If it did, how come movies are still coming out on DVD and Blu-Ray? Why not only Blu-Ray? And yes, of course when you price it the same price as the DVD people will buy the Blu-Ray, there is no question. But show me your figures that support your claim that 'blu-ray is ahead of the game'. It is not, and it won't be because like I said, digital media is gaining momentum.

So really, Blu-Ray is a victory, but not as big as you claim it is. And definitely not big enough to offset the Betamax failure. And I am being nice by not pointing out the gazillion audio formats (includign the 3.5 floppy disk) Sony tried to use. There was a time when Sony was relevant...

First, cd still sales more than digital downloads.
(http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/mar/28/global-recorded-music-sales-fall)
And that's about 30 years after the format came to market.
They will still sell cd's and players for a long time...
Second, tv did not kill radio. Digital download does not have to kill optical storage.

Global sales of dvd content went over vhs in 2004. 8 years after dvd came.
Bd won't be adopted as fast, but it doesn't mean that slower adoption isn't adoption.
The need for non-erasable storage does not disappear.
And just like nobody buys cd-drives any more, everybody will buy bd(xl)-drives in few years.

Sony now offers a laptop with LP, usb3, bd & hdmi.
Sadly Apple won't do the same for a very long time if ever...

KohPhiPhi
Jun 29, 2011, 01:25 PM
I've always loved Vaio's Z series: they're stylish, mobile, power laptops to a level no other laptop (not even Apple's) can match. The problem is their price tag: simply out of range for 99% of the people.

Besides, now a days I'm willing to trade raw power for OSX. Windows is just a no-go for me any more. I've tried Hackintosh in the past but too many glitches and problems along the way.

So, as much as REALLY like that Vaio Z, I will stick to MBA.

Thares
Jun 29, 2011, 02:12 PM
That seems to be the thing I've been waiting for. Except, that I'd use it for my Air. If I had an Air. Which I don't. Doh.

My question that you probably can answer, is: Is it possible to use the Sony dock for a MacBook with TB? That would be awesome.

Ubuntu
Jun 29, 2011, 02:13 PM
I think Apple has learned its lesson for the most part. I mean compared to early Apple? Apple is doing great using relatively standard connectors for most things.

And you can't even compare it to Sony. Sony who designs a new memory stick format for every device (I'm only exaggerating a little).

arn

Yes, I do love the VGA and HDMI ports on my iMac. I totally agree about Sony (although what's their new PSP device using? At best their own memory stick but probably some new random crap that no one else uses...) but I don't really think Apple has learned its lesson. As much as I like the idea of Thunderbolt it feels a bit silly that my iMac supports such a technology that barely anyone supports and shrugs off the more standard ports found on most PCs. I did actually use VGA and HDMI connections on my PC so its a bit lame that at best I'll need an adapter which is just adding to the costs.

Osamede
Jun 29, 2011, 04:35 PM
I don't hate Sony. I just hate that laptop. Don't worry, I also hate MacBook Airs.

It makes no sense to me why you would want a tiny, underpowered notebook like this, which needs to be plugged into a much larger unit to provide a large part of its functionality, when one can just buy a MacBook Pro, and get something that ALWAYS performs significantly better than the Sony.It's not underpowered in any way, you must be confusing it with the MacBook Air.

With the CPU and screen resolution of the Sony Z series basically you are toting around the functionality of a typical 15" laptop except in a 2.5lb, 13" package. That's nothing to sniff at. And damn sure it costs money - quality costs - its not targeted at the mass market. Why not give Sony their credit for what theyve done and leave it at that. I dont know why people feel the need to be so ungracious. That's all I'm saying.

Thares
Jun 29, 2011, 04:40 PM
It's not underpowered in any way, you must be confusing it with the MacBook Air.

With the CPU and screen resolution of the Sony Z series basically you are toting around the functionality of a typical 15" laptop except in a 2.5lb, 13" package. That's nothing to sniff at. And damn sure it costs money - quality costs - its not targeted at the mass market. Why not give Sony their credit for what theyve done and leave it at that. I dont know why people feel the need to be so ungracious. That's all I'm saying.

That's a psychology thing. Group identification, homogene group structure, attractiveness of the group 'mac users', group cohesion et cetera.

I think sony did a nice job. But I don't like the design. And it's not MacBook. I want a stylish shiny MacBook. If it was one, I would definitely buy it. But as I like my computers/smart phones/smart stuff to be compatible with each other, I will wait and save some money for the upcoming Air or maybe MBPro.

toddybody
Jun 30, 2011, 06:20 AM
A super dvd drive + 6970m would be an incredible compliment to a MBA...if they could facilitate proper cooling for the external enclosure.

janstett
Jun 30, 2011, 07:34 AM
Unlike Betamax, they were not solo in the Blu-Ray war, also they barely had the chance to enjoy their victory when steaming and digital media went mainstream.

Blu-Ray sales are not even close to those of DVDs, and DVDs are over a decade old


They did not, but you know what? All I know is that four years down the line, DVDs outsold VHS, bar none. VHS was history. Blu-Ray has been around for over 6 years now and it still hasn't done that. If it did, how come movies are still coming out on DVD and Blu-Ray? Why not only Blu-Ray?

Do you have any idea what a "bell curve" is? Formats do not instantly take over. And despite your rosy memory, DVD did not annihilate VHS instantly (within 4 years as you claim). Player sales (http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/cemadvdsales.html)peaked in 2003 which was year 7. The last big VHS releases came in 2006, which was year 9 of DVD.

Further, at least according to thedigitalbits.com, Blu-Ray player home penetration and software sales have surpassed those of DVD at the same point in their lifetimes.

Further still, Blu-Ray's numbers continue to show growth (and in a bad economy, on top of it) so it's hardly failed by any means.

Legal downloads/streaming are a tiny part of the market -- less than 10%. So even if Blu-Ray "only" reaches 1/3 of sales on high profile releases, as it currently does, it still puts downloads to shame.

Netflix has recently begun cutting down the quality (http://www.afterdawn.com/news/article.cfm/2011/03/29/and_so_it_begins_netflix_forced_to_cut_down_data_usage_for_canadian_subscribers) of its streaming to save bandwidth, and announced they were too aggressive in their hopes for streaming and are putting investment back into physical media. Seems they jumped the gun -- while streaming may be the future, it isn't the now, at least not as much as they (and you) hoped.

In a similar vein, CD sales still outpace digital downloads. And CDs went on sale in 1982, 29 years ago. OMG teh downloadz are fail.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no luddite and I stream/download plenty. But for music I insist on lossless (which mainstream download sites don't provide) and for movies I want high quality 1080p and lossless surround -- and that means Blu-Ray.

My ISP is Comcast which has a 250 GB per month bandwidth cap. Between that and the net neutrality fight where ISPs want to throttle and limit certain types of traffic, this download utopia you dream of isn't going to happen at least not without huge compromises in quality, like Apple's craptastic 720p offerings. And those of us with expensive home theaters aren't going to step backwards to poorly compressed 720p and dolby pro logic.

Crystal1988
Aug 10, 2011, 02:00 PM
Hi guys,

I'm here to tell you what we're discovering about this "Light Peak" that Sony used in Z21.

As you know, Sony used the former Light Peak Technology that is made of optical fiber instead of active copper cable. In addition it seems that the technology used by Sony differs from the former Light Peak and it's more like the actual Silicon Photonics Link by Intel. This technology use basically hybrid lasers, modulators,a muxer, an optical fiber, a demuxer and photo detectors. Each "subchannel" can go at 12,5 Gb/s and the former base project was made of 4 sub channel to obtain a 50 Gb/s.

http://techresearch.intel.com/spaw2/uploads/files/Intel_SiliconPhotonics50gLink_FINAL.pdf

We think that in reality that's the same technology that Sony used:

http://weekly.ascii.jp/elem/000/000/048/48360/110706gian_vaio003_1000x.jpg

With this technology, the demuxing of data would be made by photodetectors connected electrically to their own pins set. If the flux data is from a single peripheric and type, there's no need for additional demuxing and so no additional TB controller (eagle ridge or light ridge) avoiding Apple licenses.
We guess there's no TB controller since... there's no one on laptop and power media dock (maybe we didn't see it, who knows).

Stated this, if they used the former technology, which goes @ 50 Gb/s per channel/fiber (and we have 2 fiber/channel)(using 2 lasers in one direction and 2 in the opposite, not 4 in one direction) we think that one fiber is for direct connection of GPU to PCI-E bus from CPU and the other one is for DP connection to laptop screen. We're waiting for someone to run AIDA 64 and see if the screen accept DP input. Otherwise, it would need LDVS muxer/demuxer. As for the GPU, we think that the PCI-E bus being directely connected, and not having any other peripheric connected, it's set @ 16X 2.0 (granting a maximum bandwidth of 128 Gb/s). Since fiber channel goes at 50/ Gb/s we believe that GPU goes at least @ 4X 2.0 (32 Gb/s) or maybe like a 6X (48 Gb/s since the maximum bandwidth possible would be limited by fiber channel).
A configuration @ 4X 2.0 would show a decrease of performance nearly 20% against a 16X 2.0. And that's what we see from benchmarks between Sony SA (6630M) and Sony Z21 (6650M). 6650M is 10% faster then 6630M; in some test seen in a japanese review, PMD goes 24.86 and if it's a real 4X bandwidth, we'd have a loss of 20% (avarage through some review in scaling performance)..so, if it would be @ 16X we would have 31.075. SA/6630M goes 28.32 and since 6650M it's 10% faster -> 6650M would have to get 31.152. Results are quite similar, so it may be a real 4X.

I remember you that the loss of performance, changing real PCI-E bus can decrease performance in respect to 16X 2.0 by:

1x 1.0 20%-80% loss
1x 2.0 15%-60% loss
2x 2.0 10%-45% loss
4x 2.0 5%-25% loss
8x 2.0 0%-15% loss
[ better results in synth benchmark /worse result in games]
Even very low-hand video cards show the same or little reduced but always remarkable performance loss. A 7300 GT showed loss till 75% ( remember that GDDR memory bandwidth it's different from PCI-E bandwidth)

As for the additional ports on PMD, VGA and HDMI are controlled directely by eGPU and USB 2.0 3.0 ethernet and ODD are likely to go to the metal circuit of Light Peak port (Light Peak port is both optical fiber/USB 3.0 compliant). If those flux data still go with optical fiber, there must be an additional demuxer as TB controller to separate data and direct it in the proper pins out.

It's all speculation, for sure. But it's very likely to be so. We're trying to develop an eGPU home made in collaboration with some companies. For both TB eGPU and Sony's LP eGPU. For thunderbolt eGPU the problem would be to find light ridge/eagle ridge controllers and replicate TB cable which is the only cable PCI-E 2.0 compliant at the moment. The 2 chips on it are sold only to Apple till the end of their exclusive (so it ends on the starting of 2012).

For Sony's LP we have 2 ways: copy in some way the cable ordering trasmitter and receiver and guess pins out set or modifying power media dock substituting BGA gpu and re-rooting channels.

As for TB technology, there are two controllers: Eagle Ridge and Light Ridge. Eagle Ridge is capable of 4 x 10 Gb/s bidirectional flux, able to achieve a total of 80 Gb/s (more then enough to achieve a 8X 2.0 PCI-E when connected to such a bus) while Eagle Ridge which is on MacBook Air is capable of 2 x 10 Gb/s bidirectional flux for an overall of 40 Gb/s, more then enough to reach a 4X 2.0 PCI-E bus flux. But in reality, there won't be any difference. Actual Thunderbolt cable are able to go @ 20 Gb/s overall thanks to active chips on it (that's why they cost a lot). They cannot go beyond this limit at the moment. And I can assure you that without those chips it's very DIFFICULT to achieve a PCI-E 2.0 compliant cable (we're trying to do that). So This generation of thunderbolt, will be like a 2x 2.0 PCI-E bus. (16 Gb/s). Expect to have a loss from 10% till 50% in worst cases.

Here some links for what we're trying to do:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/gaming-software-graphics-cards/418851-diy-egpu-experiences.html [DIY ViDock thread - here there is a parallel project ti ViDock from Village Tronic to use home made boxes with eGpu. We're trying to develop things also for Thunderbolt and Sony's Light Peak -> http://forum.notebookreview.com/7575216-post4031.html

http://forum.notebookreview.com/sony/600942-vidock-4g-light-peak-z21-possible.html [here is a thread meant to push Village Tronic to develop something also for Sony Vaio Z21, they've already wrote an Open letter to Sony Community like the previous one for Mac community. If there's around someone who's interested in Z21.. -> https://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=89321949134&topic=17792#topic_top]

MagnusVonMagnum
Aug 10, 2011, 02:11 PM
Hi guys,

I'm here to tell you what we're discovering about this "Light Peak" that Sony used in Z21.

As you know, Sony used the former Light Peak Technology that is made of optical fiber instead of active copper cable.

Your post contains technical information, but for the lay person lacks comparative data. Are you saying Apple just got 'PWNED' by Sony, having a version of Light Peak that is over 10x faster and not hampered for video card use? Are you saying it will likely be vastly more expensive due to the use of coherent light rather than copper, requiring encoding/decoding of the light signal? Are you saying it will share a port with USB on its computers (kind of like how Apple's audio port often shares an optical/cable connection, but are sent to the appropriate device internally depending on the cable inserted?) Is this another BETA/VHS war brewing for the 'light peak' standard?

fertilized-egg
Aug 10, 2011, 02:19 PM
Hi guys,

I'm here to tell you what we're discovering about this "Light Peak" that Sony used in Z21.

Fascinating information, thanks!

Hellhammer
Aug 10, 2011, 02:39 PM
As for TB technology, there are two controllers: Eagle Ridge and Light Ridge. Eagle Ridge is capable of 4 x 10 Gb/s bidirectional flux, able to achieve a total of 80 Gb/s (more then enough to achieve a 8X 2.0 PCI-E when connected to such a bus) while Eagle Ridge which is on MacBook Air is capable of 2 x 10 Gb/s bidirectional flux for an overall of 40 Gb/s, more then enough to reach a 4X 2.0 PCI-E bus flux. But in reality, there won't be any difference. Actual Thunderbolt cable are able to go @ 20 Gb/s overall thanks to active chips on it (that's why they cost a lot). They cannot go beyond this limit at the moment. And I can assure you that without those chips it's very DIFFICULT to achieve a PCI-E 2.0 compliant cable (we're trying to do that). So This generation of thunderbolt, will be like a 2x 2.0 PCI-E bus. (16 Gb/s). Expect to have a loss from 10% till 50% in worst cases.

The point of Light Ridge is that you can have two ports from one controller (2x10Gb/s channels per port = 20Gb/s) which is what Apple is doing in 2011 iMacs.

Crystal1988
Aug 10, 2011, 03:04 PM
Your post contains technical information, but for the lay person lacks comparative data. Are you saying Apple just got 'PWNED' by Sony, having a version of Light Peak that is over 10x faster and not hampered for video card use? Are you saying it will likely be vastly more expensive due to the use of coherent light rather than copper, requiring encoding/decoding of the light signal? Are you saying it will share a port with USB on its computers (kind of like how Apple's audio port often shares an optical/cable connection, but are sent to the appropriate device internally depending on the cable inserted?) Is this another BETA/VHS war brewing for the 'light peak' standard?

As for TB there's no need it's what Sony stated: a Thunderbolt cable goes @ 20 Gb/s overall, no matter what controller. So it can be like a 2x 2.0 PCI-E, not more. To see how PCI-E scaling goes, take a look here: http://forum.notebookreview.com/gaming-software-graphics-cards/397667-lets-figure-out-how-make-diy-vidock-16.html#post5122549 here http://forum.notebookreview.com/gaming-software-graphics-cards/397667-lets-figure-out-how-make-diy-vidock-23.html#post5154983 and here http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/HD_5870_PCI-Express_Scaling/24.html

I SAID that it's all SPECULATION... probably very near to reality, but speculation: everything makes sense since benchmark confirm it, but still we're waiting to run some test to see how eGPU in PMD is recognised (probably as a 4X 2.0 since the performance it has). So PROBABLY, if we're not wrong, this solution it's faster. But it's normal: next generation TB will switch to optical fiber, as we all know. Bandwidth is not 10X faster: it's likely 50 Gb/s against maximum against 20 Gb/s limited by copper cable. Still I say that 50 Gb/s it's not 128 Gb/s (16X 2.0 ) so it's not even enough to obtain maximum performance (but difference in performance between 16X and 4X ... it's less the 4X and 2X). I don't think it'll cost too much. Lasers are well known since 1960 and this design is very good for mass production. Thunderbolt it's cheaper for sure.. but if you take into account the expensive cable.. I think that they're equal in term of price. Yes, USB 3.0 and Light Peak are on the same port. This port has metal connection for USB 3.0 support and optical fiber connection for light peak. No, I don't think it's a war of standard ... I think Sony made it only to not pay TB licenses. And probably it will be the only one to use this technology with this port. Apple made a good choice to be the first to implement TB on DP in collaboration with Intel. I don't know for the future. It's known that next generation of TB will use this optical technology.. but who knows how they'll implement it.

Still I invite you to see previous links since we're trying to develop in collaboration with some companies, a home made TB and LP eGPU dock.

As you know, ViDock from Village Tronic with express card (TB is not developed yet) costs till 300$ for a 225W enclosure. With a home made setup we can reach for 300$ a good setup with a HD6850 for example.

The point of Light Ridge is that you can have two ports from one controller (2x10Gb/s channels per port = 20Gb/s) which is what Apple is doing in 2011 iMacs.

But each channel is bidirectional, so you obtain 80 Gb/s of aggregate. Each port has two channel, 1 channel for PCI-Express and one channel for DP. To obtain 40 Gb/s in Pci-Express you would have have 2 ports and an enclosure capable of muxing and demuxing in the right way. Still, actual cable only have 2 channels and they cannot support higher bandwidth. A faster cable would have needed 4 channels, but it would have costed a lot more ( and to solve the problem, TB controller could have set to grant all four channel to achieve 40 Gb/s on PCI-E part)

accessoriesguy
Aug 10, 2011, 03:28 PM
This is good news, now the race for external compatible GPU's will be released, so everyone can enjoy some powerful portable computing!

Crystal1988
Aug 11, 2011, 02:37 PM
We made some new tests: as it seems GPU-Z and also AIDA 64 certificate PCI-E 2.0 16X (which is ATI video card maximum support) @ 2.0 4X. So this technology will go at least at 32 Gb/s till 50 Gb/s.
I wonder how next Thunderbolt generation will implement this without losing back-compatibility.

As for our Thunderbolt eGPU projects it seems that we'll have really to wait for Apple exclusive license to expire in 2012 (if we're not wrong XD).

TMay
Aug 11, 2011, 05:16 PM
We made some new tests: as it seems GPU-Z and also AIDA 64 certificate PCI-E 2.0 16X (which is ATI video card maximum support) @ 2.0 4X. So this technology will go at least at 32 Gb/s till 50 Gb/s.
I wonder how next Thunderbolt generation will implement this without losing back-compatibility.

As for our Thunderbolt eGPU projects it seems that we'll have really to wait for Apple exclusive license to expire in 2012 (if we're not wrong XD).

Lots of rambling on your part so I'm definitely having trouble following your post(s).

1) Apple has no exclusive license and Intel owns the Thunderbolt trademark

2) The USB group denied use of the USB connector for Thunderbolt/Light Peak, hence Apple put forward mini DP as the connector. I have no idea why Sony uses the USB connector.

3) At this point in time, there isn't any real advantage to an optical Thunderbolt connection over copper; there isn't a performance benefit except an increase in distance between devices.

4) This site claims that this was developed prior to Intel finalizing the standard with Apple;

http://thisismynext.com/2011/07/07/sony-light-peak-apple-thunderbolt-intel/

I'm betting that this Vaio is a one off, in which case all of the post by Crystal really doesn't mean much for the future.

I'll stick with Intel's standard that Apple has adopted.

Crystal1988
Aug 11, 2011, 06:24 PM
^

1) http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/24/intel-refutes-apple-exclusivity-for-thunderbolt-i-o-lacie-and-p/ I completly missed that news, sorry.

2) What is denied it's to CALL IT USB 3.0 since it has been modified. In fact Sony cannot call it USB 3.0. And there's no official support from USB group (that's what a Sony insider stated. As it seems, legal issues would come if Sony would call it USB 3.0 in specification, datasheets and so on.. odd things)

3) I don't agree. The biggest problem of Thunderbolt is its own "special" cable.. I say special cuz that's the only PCI-E 2.0 compliant cable on the market (and sony's one it's not on the market, at least, not alone). At the moment it can reach 10x2 Gb/s for PCI-E with one channel and 10x2 Gb/s for DP on the other lane (when we use a Thunderbolt device and not a DP device). So an external video card would have to use the channel for PCI-E. Since a there's a maximum of 20 Gb/s overall for PCI-E channel, the eGPU will work @ 2X 2.0 (16 Gb/s). I assure you (and you can see performance change in the last links in the first post of mine) that difference between 1X 1.0 and 2.0 or 1X 2.0 and 2X 2.0 or 2X 2.0 and 4X 2.0 are remarkable. Even between 4X and 8X we can see consistent difference in performance. There's always a gain in performance which is relevant till 64 Gb/s (which is over actual limit in Sony's implementation) and even till 16X with dual gpu video card.

4) Yeah, they decided to go on even if Intel and Apple decided to change route and go to copper wires. BUT remember that next Thunderbolt generation will use optical fiber, so they'll use this KIND of technology with some modification to be adapted to TB controller to maintain back-compatibility.

Yes, it will be probably a one shot product. But it means a lot for future, cuz it's simply the technology which will be used to achieve 100 Gb/s in Thunderbolt 2.0. Sony made auto-goal (as always XD) deciding to use a different port (with possible legal issues). It has been a suicide.

In any case, I'm here only to show you what Thunderbolt will be in future, nothing more. I'm not here to say that Sony is better. Yeah, it has implemented a very good technology that can achieve 50 Gb/s per channel, one year before what it'll be for Thunderbolt but they went wrong with the port, marketing and Apple's appeal power. I would preferred the same Thunderbolt port. In that way there wouldn't have been any compatibility problem.

Young Spade
Aug 11, 2011, 06:25 PM
I don't know about you guys but I would definitely love an external GPU. The one in the 13 inch 2011 MBP is fine for all of my needs, however it does run damn hot; 95 C when I'm playing newer games.

I would love a stand with a dedicated graphics card in there for heavy games; what I wouldn't love would be the price they'd sell it at. At least 2-3 hundred.

Crystal1988
Aug 11, 2011, 06:47 PM
^ plus e Video Card... for example an HD6850 is about 160$ .. and actual ViDock 4 it's around 280$ (probably with TB module will cost a little bit more)..

Young Spade
Aug 11, 2011, 08:39 PM
^ plus e Video Card... for example an HD6850 is about 160$ .. and actual ViDock 4 it's around 280$ (probably with TB module will cost a little bit more)..

Oh wow; I mean, I knew they cost a lot but I didn't think of the actual numbers.

Yea it's going to be around 500 bucks. I'd love one, but I probably wouldn't get it. I'd only need it to play games and I don't even do that that often.

Stingray454
Jan 10, 2012, 06:18 AM
Things are finally shaping up in this department :)

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5352/msis-gus-ii-external-gpu-via-thunderbolt

Hellhammer
Jan 10, 2012, 10:06 AM
Things are finally shaping up in this department :)

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5352/msis-gus-ii-external-gpu-via-thunderbolt

Not much, IMO. MSI gave no release schedule so we are still stuck with the same "sometime in the future". Also, that box is limited to 75W GPUs.

Eidorian
Jan 10, 2012, 10:23 AM
Not much, IMO. MSI gave no release schedule so we are still stuck with the same "sometime in the future". Also, that box is limited to 75W GPUs.MSI's info card says 150W...

Stingray454
Jan 10, 2012, 10:26 AM
MSI's info card says 150W...

Yes, the article says it's powered by the TB port, which I find very hard to believe. The macbooks power supply needs to power the computer itself as well, so I guess the power adapter wouldn't be able to deliver THAT much juice to the external case.

That, and there is clearly a power cable on the back of the box visible in the pictures :)

EDIT: Come to thing of it, that is most likely the VGA / HDMI connector to the monitor. Using only the power the MacBook can provide seems like a huge design flaw, imo. Sure, adding a PSU would make it more bulky, but people using a solution like this will probably use it as a stationary docking station and don't care about a separate PSU for the box. Hope there will be one.

Eidorian
Jan 10, 2012, 10:32 AM
Yes, the article says it's powered by the TB port, which I find very hard to believe. The macbooks power supply needs to power the computer itself as well, so I guess the power adapter wouldn't be able to deliver THAT much juice to the external case.

That, and there is clearly a power cable on the back of the box visible in the pictures :)

EDIT: Come to thing of it, that is most likely the VGA / HDMI connector to the monitor. Using only the power the MacBook can provide seems like a huge design flaw, imo. Sure, adding a PSU would make it more bulky, but people using a solution like this will probably use it as a stationary docking station and don't care about a separate PSU for the box. Hope there will be one.It more than likely comes with its own AC adapter hidden off somewhere. 150W limits you to the current GTX 550 Ti/HD 6850 lines. You are looking at 225W for anything impressive.

Hellhammer
Jan 10, 2012, 10:49 AM
MSI's info card says 150W...

There are no PCIe power connectors, hence I said 75W (which is what the slot should provide, unless that has changed with PCIe 3.0).

Yes, the article says it's powered by the TB port, which I find very hard to believe. The macbooks power supply needs to power the computer itself as well, so I guess the power adapter wouldn't be able to deliver THAT much juice to the external case.

That, and there is clearly a power cable on the back of the box visible in the pictures :)

Can't be TB powered as it's limited to 10W.

Eidorian
Jan 10, 2012, 10:51 AM
There are no PCIe power connectors, hence I said 75W (which is what the slot should provide, unless that has changed with PCIe 3.0).Conflict, it is slot powered but MSI also mentions a 150W cap on the info card right next to the product...