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MacRumors
Jul 1, 2011, 09:12 AM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/07/01/adobe-and-avid-target-final-cut-pro-users-with-switcher-discounts/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/07/adobe_premiere_pro_5_5_box-150x150.jpgAdobe today announced (http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/pressroom/pressreleases/201107/070111AdobeSwitcherProgram.html) a new "switcher" promotion clearly designed to take advantage of the significant amount of criticism being levied against Apple's new Final Cut Pro X. The new program offers a 50% discount on either Creative Suite CS5.5 Production Premium or Premiere Pro CS5.5 to current users of Apple's Final Cut Pro or Avid's Media Composer. Certain current Adobe users are also eligible for the promotion."We're hearing from video professionals that they want pro level tools that address cutting edge work but also allow them to use legacy footage and workflows," said Jim Guerard, general manager and vice president of professional video and audio, Adobe. "At Adobe we've been in the trenches with video pros for years and with Adobe Premiere Pro CS5.5 and CS5.5 Production Premium we've delivered professional-grade tools that are already being battle-tested by some of the most innovative filmmakers, broadcasters and video pros."Adobe's switcher program is limited to commercial customers and is valid through September 30th.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/07/avid_media_composer_5_box-150x150.jpgAvid has also taken advantage (http://community.avid.com/blogs/avid/archive/2011/06/30/making-great-products-to-serve-professionals-is-our-lifeblood.aspx?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+AvidInsideOut+%28Avid+Community+Blogs+-+Inside+Out%29) of Apple's issues, once again offering Final Cut Pro users more than 50% off of its Media Composer software, pricing it at $995 compared to the usual $2,295 download price and $2,495 boxed price. The discounted pricing is available for existing pre-Final Cut Pro X users.We are listening. And one of the things you have clearly said is that you want Media Composer to be more accessible. In response to your feedback, we are extending the cross-grade to Media Composer - through September. Final Cut Pro (excluding FCP X) users can get Media Composer 5.5 at the promotional price of $995 USD. You can order the cross-grade as of next Tuesday, July 5th.Avid had offered the crossgrade promotion from mid-April through June 17th after Apple took over (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/04/05/apple-to-introduce-new-final-cut-pro-on-april-12th/) the Final Cut Pro User Group SuperMeet at NAB to preview Final Cut Pro X, kicking out (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/04/10/next-final-cut-pro-at-nab-next-week-due-spring-2011-some-more-hints/) Avid and other sponsors of the event in order to have the stage for itself. Avid's decision to renew the crossgrade the program through September is clearly an effort to attract Final Cut Pro users disappointed in the official release of Final Cut Pro X.

Article Link: Adobe and Avid Target Final Cut Pro Users With 'Switcher' Discounts (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/07/01/adobe-and-avid-target-final-cut-pro-users-with-switcher-discounts/)



KnightWRX
Jul 1, 2011, 09:16 AM
The sharks smell blood.

MovieCutter
Jul 1, 2011, 09:16 AM
Gotta hand it to Apple...the definitely fulfilled their promise to make "switching" REALLY easy!!! :cool:

dagamer34
Jul 1, 2011, 09:17 AM
The sharks smell blood.

At least for people who said they are switching, it won't hit the wallet quite a hard. Good deal by both companies, especially when you are talking about businesses likely needing to buy several seats.

Schizoid
Jul 1, 2011, 09:20 AM
Be really interesting over the rest of the year to see how Apple fairs in the professional video arena, looks like their market share is set to drop considerably... I believe it was about 45-50% of the pro editing market...

Fraaaa
Jul 1, 2011, 09:20 AM
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Got only one question: are those programs written in carbon?

machan
Jul 1, 2011, 09:22 AM
In the trenches...except for those few years where we abandoned the Mac platform in video editing, but we're back now with all our apps so it's all hugs and kisses, right?

SBlue1
Jul 1, 2011, 09:22 AM
competition is good :D

djrod
Jul 1, 2011, 09:23 AM
As some would say, nice strategy to drop the pro market and focus on the consumer, just make your pro customers go away by themselves :p

Apple should have wait till FCP X was more "complete"

thetexan
Jul 1, 2011, 09:23 AM
Something tells me Apple really doesn't care if they lose the professional market on this one or anything else for that matter. Almost their entire focus is now on the consumer, while ignoring the professional users.

KnightWRX
Jul 1, 2011, 09:24 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Got only one question: are those programs written in carbon?

From http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/tech-specs.html :

Multicore Intel processor with 64-bit support

EDIT : interesting, it uses VDA it seems :

Mac OS X v10.6.3 required for GPU-accelerated performance

zin
Jul 1, 2011, 09:26 AM
I think being able to slash 50% off your original selling price really says something about just how much you (over)value your product.

apttap
Jul 1, 2011, 09:26 AM
I'm not a professional editor, but after listening to @lonelysandwich on The Talk Show, I feel that most editors aren't likely to just jump over to a new platform. I think apple with make FCP 7 available again, as they work on bringing FCPX up to speed.

Doug183
Jul 1, 2011, 09:27 AM
I use both products professionally. If Avid would fully support AppleProRes, I would now leave FCP behind. And please, don't start a flamewar saying Avid does support it with that proxy thing they do. Yeah it works for a few hours then crashes.

Bottom line on Apple, the computer industry is changing and high end machines are no longer that important to any computer company. You can do anything with an Imac now, and fast. The only limitations is connectivity (no slots). Apple is getting out of the high end market, mark my words.

KnightWRX
Jul 1, 2011, 09:27 AM
I think being able to slash 50% off your original selling price really says something about just how much you (over)value your product.

Like Apple did with most of the iLife stuff, Aperture and now FCP ? ;)

Software is a strange beast to price. The development costs are fixed, duplication and distribution costs are pennies on the dollars. What might have cost you 10,000$ to make can bring in millions in sales. What cost you millions to make can bring in 10,000$ in sales.


I'm not a professional editor, but after listening to @lonelysandwich on The Talk Show, I feel that most editors aren't likely to just jump over to a new platform. I think apple with make FCP 7 available again, as they work on bringing FCPX up to speed.

If editors are like enterprise IT, they'll take this as a good lesson in not trusting a vendor without a roadmap and just move to ones that do have a public roadmap they are willing to share. Surprises from vendors is never a good thing for businesses.

AllGaussian
Jul 1, 2011, 09:28 AM
Can the Adobe solution import FCP7 files? If it can't what is the point?

AAPLaday
Jul 1, 2011, 09:29 AM
I think being able to slash 50% off your original selling price really says something about just how much you (over)value your product.

SL + Lion are combined are cheaper than Leopard was

The Phazer
Jul 1, 2011, 09:29 AM
Can the Adobe solution import FCP7 files? If it can't what is the point?

They allow you to do all the other things FCPX is missing today, and allow you to buy additional licences, unlike FCP7, so if you're in any kind of business at all where you need that flexibility they still remotely work.

Very clever move from both companies. I suspect FCPX's marketshare will collapse.

Phazer

the vj
Jul 1, 2011, 09:30 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Got only one question: are those programs written in carbon?

That is the least of the worries. I do not care if my new girlfriend is a bit overweight as long she is not a lazy gold digger.

KnightWRX
Jul 1, 2011, 09:31 AM
Can the Adobe solution import FCP7 files? If it can't what is the point?

Can FCPX import FCP7 files? If it can't what is the point? :eek::D

SatyMahajan
Jul 1, 2011, 09:31 AM
Can the Adobe solution import FCP7 files? If it can't what is the point?

http://help.adobe.com/en_US/premierepro/cs/using/WSd9957a95a81082eb28f05af5126718c47be-8000.html

the vj
Jul 1, 2011, 09:32 AM
Can the Adobe solution import FCP7 files? If it can't what is the point?

Reliability, with FCP X you can not neither. At least 3 years from now you know with Avid or Adobe you will be able to open your files from 5 years ago.

Lone Deranger
Jul 1, 2011, 09:33 AM
From http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/tech-specs.html :



EDIT : interesting, it uses VDA it seems :

I guess Premiere Pro, After Effects are Cocoa because they claim 64-bit support. We know Photoshop is... but what about all the other ones in the 'CS5.5 Production Premium' suite. No mention of "64-bit supported" there..... tricksey tricksey....

the vj
Jul 1, 2011, 09:34 AM
http://help.adobe.com/en_US/premierepro/cs/using/WSd9957a95a81082eb28f05af5126718c47be-8000.html

There you go, not even FCP X.

roadbloc
Jul 1, 2011, 09:34 AM
...and there goes another one of Apple's pro products. What's left now? They've only got Logic Pro to **** up and they are totally an average-joe based company. :(

.11
Jul 1, 2011, 09:34 AM
I think being able to slash 50% off your original selling price really says something about just how much you (over)value your product.

A sales strategy used to get more customers doesn't mean your product is overvalued.

Making a sacrifice to widen your customer base is something all companies do, just look at the deals on Groupon and LivingSocial, albeit some companies discount their products to heavily and run out of business.

Or look at Microsoft, free 360s so users will buy games, xbox live, or some may even get a Kinect.

Or Apple, free iPod Touch for students, although not this years, but the student would buy apps, accessories and etc. And the free Mac App Store cards, means another iTunes account and more impulse buys.

ebatalha
Jul 1, 2011, 09:35 AM
This is good! Apple will have to prove that FCPX will be a really Pro app, we got to wait!
Avid should redesign Media Composer, it looks the old days of KDE!
Premiere is just fine!
And once again!! People, you haven't been forced by Apple to switch from FCP7 to FCPX, right?!

dethmaShine
Jul 1, 2011, 09:35 AM
I don't think many are going to switch, or even switch to other pro tools at all.

Primiere is a nice option compared to Avid but I don't think pros are going to look consider switching so early. I don't think that's gonna happen.

We will see in two years where Apple goes with FCP X. I am quite optimistic that they won't disrespect the pros any further.

dethmaShine
Jul 1, 2011, 09:37 AM
...and there goes another one of Apple's pro products. What's left now? They've only got Logic Pro to **** up and they are totally an average-joe based company. :(

Yeah right. Adobe makes a deal and Apple product is dead. That's a very appropriate and logical conclusion.

Vantage Point
Jul 1, 2011, 09:37 AM
Capitalism at its finest - where competition favors the consumer and forces sellers to innovate with better products at the same price or similar products at a lower price.

PCClone
Jul 1, 2011, 09:38 AM
So it is easier to learn a completely new program from another vendor? I fail to see the logic. Do these products import FCP 7? I understand if it is a feature issue, but they can continue using 7 until the features in X are rolled out.

World Citizen
Jul 1, 2011, 09:38 AM
I don't see a issue here...

Lots of people WANT Windows... I am happy for them. By By...
Lots of people WANT Adobe... I am happy for them. By By...

see... no problem. Do we really mis them...?

So, they are not in the same boat as us? So they wouldn't be useful anyways.

KnightWRX
Jul 1, 2011, 09:38 AM
Avid should redesign Media Composer, it looks the old days of KDE!

Why would you redesign perfection ? Look at what that did to KDE. (Big KDE fanboy since version 1.0 right here! :D )

supmango
Jul 1, 2011, 09:39 AM
I don't see much about Adobe Premier that makes me think it is any better than the old version of Final Cut Pro. I am not a power user, so maybe I am missing something?

Digitalclips
Jul 1, 2011, 09:40 AM
I'm not a professional editor, but after listening to @lonelysandwich on The Talk Show, I feel that most editors aren't likely to just jump over to a new platform. I think apple with make FCP 7 available again, as they work on bringing FCPX up to speed.

I hope this is what happens. I have worked many thousands of hours in versions of FCP over the years. I spent the last few days working around the clock with FCPX and it has some nice features but it is far from flexible enough for pro production as it stands. It has a lot of automated features ideal for prosumers however. There has to be a way forward to solve all this. In the mean time remove the EOL on 7. Apple has some PR leg work to do here.

Digitalclips
Jul 1, 2011, 09:41 AM
I don't see much about Adobe Premier that makes me think it is any better than the old version of Final Cut Pro. I am not a power user, so maybe I am missing something?

I think the concept here is that Adobe would at least maintain that app for the next few years as opposed to the EOL on 7. Easy fix for Apple there!

Tymmz
Jul 1, 2011, 09:42 AM
They allow you to do all the other things FCPX is missing today, and allow you to buy additional licences, unlike FCP7, so if you're in any kind of business at all where you need that flexibility they still remotedly work.

Very clever move from both companies. I suspect FCPX's marketshare will collapse.

Phazer

I'm in no position to judge any of it.

I just wonder why the pros now "have to" update (to FCPX or to Adobe or Avid). Just for the sake of it and boredom? Doesn't FCP 7 do it anymore?

Why all this?

bigjohn
Jul 1, 2011, 09:42 AM
Something tells me Apple really doesn't care if they lose the professional market on this one or anything else for that matter. Almost their entire focus is now on the consumer, while ignoring the professional users.

The professional market makes up of 4% of FCP users. While I fall into that 4%, I'm pretty sure Apple is focused on the 96% (that's not saying they're ignoring us, just that they're focused on someone else). They brought us to the dance, but they're dancing with someone else.

zin
Jul 1, 2011, 09:43 AM
Like Apple did with most of the iLife stuff, Aperture and now FCP ? ;)

Well, evidently (from all of the reviews), the cut in FCP was due to the cut in features.

winston1236
Jul 1, 2011, 09:44 AM
oh wow, going to have to talk to the bosses about this one thats a deal:eek:

Chaos123x
Jul 1, 2011, 09:46 AM
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Apple shouldn't abandon the pros. They must remember that most of the Mac evangelist were pro users.

I have a Mac Pro, MacBook Pro, iPhone 4, iPad 2, and AppleTV. But I wouldnt own any of them if I never used Final Cut Pro.

Because of me my sister, girlfriend, mother and best friends all have Macs and iPhones. I convinced them all to go Mac.

If Final Cut Pro doesn't improve, I might have to ditch apple all together. No point being in a walled garden if I can't run the software I need.

.11
Jul 1, 2011, 09:46 AM
I don't think many are going to switch, or even switch to other pro tools at all.

Primiere is a nice option compared to Avid but I don't think pros are going to look consider switching so early. I don't think that's gonna happen.

We will see in two years where Apple goes with FCP X. I am quite optimistic that they won't disrespect the pros any further.

I wouldn't expect them to make the switch, going to a new interface will take a bit of time to get used to.

But I do think they will buy the product, because it's 50% off. They may wait for future Final Cut Pro updates to come, and if they are still not satisfied they can use Adobe Premiere or Avid. Which they bought at a great price instead of the full price had they waited.

But Final Cut Pro 7 users who didn't upgrade right away may make the switch, if they can't import their prior projects to Final Cut Pro X, then why buy it?

It's like buying Photoshop CS3 and not being able to open your Photoshop CS2 files.(I say CS3, because I still use CS2)

iphonepiephone
Jul 1, 2011, 09:48 AM
Arguments and piffle aside, what precisely is "wrong" with Adobe software? I use iMovie '11 & Premiere Pro/After Effects, no problem here. If you have a choice between software you're gonna moan about, or a NLE which is 10x what FCP 7 could ever dream to be, then there's no debate, surely?

:)

Oletros
Jul 1, 2011, 09:48 AM
I don't see a issue here...

Lots of people WANT Windows... I am happy for them. By By...
Lots of people WANT Adobe... I am happy for them. By By...

see... no problem. Do we really mis them...?

So, they are not in the same boat as us? So they wouldn't be useful anyways.

With me or against me?

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

SatyMahajan
Jul 1, 2011, 09:49 AM
...and there goes another one of Apple's pro products. What's left now? They've only got Logic Pro to **** up and they are totally an average-joe based company. :(

I think FCPX's interface is FAR more like Logic Pro 9 than FCP7 ever was.

NAG
Jul 1, 2011, 09:49 AM
I think the concept here is that Adobe would at least maintain that app for the next few years as opposed to the EOL on 7. Easy fix for Apple there!

Because it isn't like Adobe axed development for Premiere for Mac before...oh wait, they did. (http://www.macworld.com/article/25251/2003/07/adobe.html)

This, obviously, doesn't absolve Apple of the FCP X transition screw up (there are so many ways they could have avoided this drama, the big one being rename iMovie and FCP X something else and keep FCP 7 around until FCP X or whatever they call it can replace FCP 7 fully). Still, blindly jumping ship to Adobe, as a Mac user, is short-sited.

singlestick
Jul 1, 2011, 09:50 AM
Something tells me Apple really doesn't care if they lose the professional market on this one or anything else for that matter. Almost their entire focus is now on the consumer, while ignoring the professional users.

Odd, then that Apple would try to appease professionals with promises of updates that would address complaints. Even more odd that Apple would invite professionals to events where the product was discussed and touted as being designed with them in mind.

This would be a strange stealth strategy for Apple to call a product Final Cut Pro, and simultaneously say, "but we really don't mean the pro part."

I mean, it is perfectly fine if Apple's entire focus is on the consumer market, but they make themselves look foolish if they muddle their message by pretending to appeal to professionals while snubbing them.

weckart
Jul 1, 2011, 09:51 AM
SL + Lion are combined are cheaper than Leopard was

The true cost of SL is SL+Leopard if you want to upgrade to it from Tiger, so whether it is cheaper is debatable.


I don't see a issue here...

Lots of people WANT Windows... I am happy for them. By By...
Lots of people WANT Adobe... I am happy for them. By By...

see... no problem. Do we really mis them...?

So, they are not in the same boat as us? So they wouldn't be useful anyways.

How crass and way to utterly miss the point.

Small White Car
Jul 1, 2011, 09:52 AM
Funny, this is exactly how I started using Final Cut.

I don't remember the details, but I think it had to do with the OS9 - OSX switch and Apple offered steep discounts for the new Final Cut if you turned in your Adobe Premiere disks to them.

I don't remember the exact reason...maybe Adobe was being slow to adapt to OSX?...but I took the offer and have been on Final Cut ever since through many versions.

So...I guess this kind of thing does work.
The true cost of SL is SL+Leopard if you want to upgrade to it from Tiger, so whether it is cheaper is debatable.


Why's that? Is it a legal contract thing? Because I can assure you that there's no technical reason you can't just wipe a Tiger computer with a Snow Leopard disk and start fresh. (Does it not do an upgrade properly? Is that the issue? I've never tried. But I know wiping clean works fine.)

NAG
Jul 1, 2011, 09:55 AM
Funny, this is exactly how I started using Final Cut.

I don't remember the details, but I think it had to do with the OS9 - OSX switch and Apple offered steep discounts for the new Final Cut if you turned in your Adobe Premiere disks to them.

I don't remember the exact reason...maybe Adobe was being slow to adapt to OSX?...but I took the offer and have been on Final Cut ever since through many versions.

So...I guess this kind of thing does work.


Why's that? Is it a legal contract thing? Because I can assure you that there's no technical reason you can't go from Tiger right to Snow Leopard.

For Premiere 7 (aka CS1) they dropped Mac support, blaming the presence of FCP being too much competition for them. I believe Macs got OS X support with CS3, four years later. So yeah, no company is a saint here.

AllGaussian
Jul 1, 2011, 09:56 AM
http://help.adobe.com/en_US/premierepro/cs/using/WSd9957a95a81082eb28f05af5126718c47be-8000.html

Thank you for that. Since it is a major issue, FCP7 XML import into Premiere should be hammered home by Adobe. I did not see it in any of the stories. Thanks again.

World Citizen
Jul 1, 2011, 09:56 AM
The true cost of SL is SL+Leopard if you want to upgrade to it from Tiger, so whether it is cheaper is debatable.




How crass and way to utterly miss the point.

Sry, But when everything changes .... and you complain in 3 days that it is rubbish... THEN you are missing the point of progress....

If you don't like something the first minute... and you dont have a clue about what will come... but you DO start to complain... again, byby

There are lots of people who hated the iPad from before the release... Again, By by...

This X version will get up to speed... People that run away now.. will try to invent lightspeed to get back.. so again.. byby, see you soon!

Small White Car
Jul 1, 2011, 09:57 AM
For Premiere 7 (aka CS1) they dropped Mac support, blaming the presence of FCP being too much competition for them. I believe Macs got OS X support with CS3, four years later. So yeah, no company is a saint here.

Oh, right!

Yeah, I COULDN'T keep using Premiere.

Thanks for the reminder, I'd totally forgotten. Well, then I probably shouldn't give Apple marketing so much credit for "stealing" me away, then. My product died. Kind of easy to pick me up then, huh?

baryon
Jul 1, 2011, 09:58 AM
Premiere has been significantly better than FCP anyway for quite a long time now. I don't use AVID but that has a more professional audience than Premiere or FPC.

LemonsofDeath
Jul 1, 2011, 09:58 AM
Some things to consider:

-Adobe Premiere can import XML files, and FCP7 can export XML files (and vice versa), so you can open FCP7 projects in Premiere (FCPX can neither import or export XML files natively)

-Adobe Premiere and After Effects work with 64 Bit, can utilize more then 2 processors and 4 GB of ram (FCP 7 can't [FCPX can])


-Adobe Premiere has a more similar interface to FCP7 then FCP7 does to FCPX (though I don't think that is neccessarily a bad thing that FCPX redesigned the NLE interface) So for many editors learning Premiere would be easier then learning FCPX.

OllyW
Jul 1, 2011, 09:58 AM
I think being able to slash 50% off your original selling price really says something about just how much you (over)value your product.

It's been done before by other companies (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2003/07/16Apple-Offers-Premiere-Users-Easy-Switch-to-Final-Cut-Pro.html). ;)

spiffers
Jul 1, 2011, 09:59 AM
And once again!! People, you haven't been forced by Apple to switch from FCP7 to FCPX, right?!

We have not been forced to switch, but what should I do with the two new seats I need now? Pirate FCP7? I cant admit to it here in the forum, but if Im gonna do it the right way, Im stuck. So what the h*ll should I do? Any good answers?
Apple keeps up releasing iCrap.

Im just hoping someone could release an awesome editing suite for Linux, would be great to run a Ubuntu based system on Mac hardware.

Small White Car
Jul 1, 2011, 10:01 AM
As an interesting note...I last used Premiere way back when it was version 6 or 7, I think. I BELIEVE that the guy in charge of video at Apple is the same guy who came up with that way back when.

I used to like the way Premiere did edits back then with the A/B track...I can kind of see some of that influence in the new Final Cut Pro X. Not that it's the same as Premiere, but rather I see the desire to find new ways of editing that make more sense on a computer than they would in a film lab. That kind of thing doesn't always work, but I enjoy the software that explores those areas rather than slavishly mimicing old-style film editing. (Which is what Final Cut has mostly been up until now.)

In other words, in Final Cut X I see the same attitude that the old 1990's Premiere used to have. Not the same design, but the same attitude.

So I'll be sticking with FCP because it reminds me more of the old Premiere I used to love so much.

H. Flower
Jul 1, 2011, 10:02 AM
I'm in no position to judge any of it.

I just wonder why the pros now "have to" update (to FCPX or to Adobe or Avid). Just for the sake of it and boredom? Doesn't FCP 7 do it anymore?

Why all this?

The market is highly competitive and depends on one of the quickest moving industries (video media/technology).

It's either adopt or die.

Pretty much everyone I know is migrating to Premiere. CS5.5 is much better than FCP7 in some ways, but overall, slightly behind. CS6 should surpass FCP7 and will be light-years ahead of FCPX.

TechKnow
Jul 1, 2011, 10:03 AM
Those that are not in the field or are new to the field do not understand that the learning curve is not that great. Most of us started with Adobe or Avid so the switch back will be easy.

I happen to have all three. At work I use Avid Media Composer and Adobe Production Premium. Avid is my main editor and I use Photoshop, Illustrator and After Effects a lot.

At home I have Avid Media Composer, Adobe and FCP 5. I still do the bulk of my lifting in Avid, but have been playing with FCP since a lot of the industry was starting to switch.

What the "Switch to" will do for most production houses is allow them to "Add" a Premiere or Media Composer seat for half price. If I have 2 MC stations and 2 FCP stations, I can add to additional MC stations for less than the price of one if I decide that FCP is not in my future roadmap.

NAG
Jul 1, 2011, 10:05 AM
And if you guys want a thoughtful discussion of FCP X I really suggest you listen to this week's The Talk Show (http://5by5.tv/talkshow/49). Yes, it is Gruber. No, he isn't completely sucking up to Apple so stop trolling. :p

PCClone
Jul 1, 2011, 10:05 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Apple shouldn't abandon the pros. They must remember that most of the Mac evangelist were pro users.

I have a Mac Pro, MacBook Pro, iPhone 4, iPad 2, and AppleTV. But I wouldnt own any of them if I never used Final Cut Pro.

Because of me my sister, girlfriend, mother and best friends all have Macs and iPhones. I convinced them all to go Mac.

If Final Cut Pro doesn't improve, I might have to ditch apple all together. No point being in a walled garden if I can't run the software I need.

First off you should congratulate yourself some more. So, the fact that the hardware just works and you don't worry about viruses, isn't the reason to own a Mac? I convinced several people to switch and never used FCP and they didn't either. A little bitter are we?

dakwar
Jul 1, 2011, 10:07 AM
Sry, But when everything changes .... and you complain in 3 days that it is rubbish... THEN you are missing the point of progress....

If you don't like something the first minute... and you dont have a clue about what will come... but you DO start to complain... again, byby

There are lots of people who hated the iPad from before the release... Again, By by...

This X version will get up to speed... People that run away now.. will try to invent lightspeed to get back.. so again.. byby, see you soon!

That would be bye bye. ;)

World Citizen
Jul 1, 2011, 10:08 AM
That would be bye bye. ;)

Ow I am sorry, I try to be at my best in English... And yes I do make mistakes..

But hey, try to type my post in Dutch... :)

H. Flower
Jul 1, 2011, 10:09 AM
Sry, But when everything changes .... and you complain in 3 days that it is rubbish... THEN you are missing the point of progress....

If you don't like something the first minute... and you dont have a clue about what will come... but you DO start to complain... again, byby

There are lots of people who hated the iPad from before the release... Again, By by...

This X version will get up to speed... People that run away now.. will try to invent lightspeed to get back.. so again.. byby, see you soon!

In their current incantations, Premiere and AVID are way beyond the functionality of FCPX. It's possible X will catch up, but I doubt it.

TechKnow
Jul 1, 2011, 10:09 AM
....
I used to like the way Premiere did edits back then with the A/B track...

In other words, in Final Cut X I see the same attitude that the old 1990's Premiere used to have. Not the same design, but the same attitude.

So I'll be sticking with FCP because it reminds me more of the old Premiere I used to love so much.

I think you are making the point. For simple A/B edits, FCPX works great. The reason Adobe abandoned the A/B timeline was because it was not flexible enough for advanced edits. Basic compositing and advanced titling can be done in most video editors today and the A/B line was not flexible enough to express those workflows.

I think that you are the target market for the FCPX, which is great. No complaints their. The problem is the lack of a current option for those who need more short of "keep using our old version".

Fraaaa
Jul 1, 2011, 10:09 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Got only one question: are those programs written in carbon?

That is the least of the worries. I do not care if my new girlfriend is a bit overweight as long she is not a lazy gold digger.

On the other hand, that should be your first thought if you wanna go Lion.

World Citizen
Jul 1, 2011, 10:11 AM
In their current incantations, Premiere and AVID are way beyond the functionality of FCPX. It's possible X will catch up, but I doubt it.

I know... BUT... more features is not my goal...

I want a solid platform. So ill keep using FCP for now.. but when X has some more features Ill get it.

Windows gives me more features to.. but hey, I don't want that platform.

zin
Jul 1, 2011, 10:12 AM
It's been done before by other companies (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2003/07/16Apple-Offers-Premiere-Users-Easy-Switch-to-Final-Cut-Pro.html). ;)

I stand by my original statement... I'm not sure why you think I'm going to change my mind just because Apple has done it too. :rolleyes:

macduke
Jul 1, 2011, 10:13 AM
I consider myself a "pro", not so much in the field of video editing, but in graphic design and photography. I've also taken some video editing courses and am knowledgeable. From my experience, I feel as though most pros don't usually freak out like this. This whole "burn it now because the new version sucks!" attitude is ridiculous. Most pros usually say "you know, I think I'm just going to keep using what I've got and see how this whole upgrade business ends up shaking out over the course of the next 6 to 12 months." Most pros don't upgrade right away. We are pretty set in our ways, and while embracing new tech is great and we do it often, we understand that it's not always the best idea to jump straight to another platform right after it is released. This isn't play time, there is real money to be made and this is only a tool for us to get said money. If FCP 7 keeps working and they like it then many won't change anything for now.

chaosconan
Jul 1, 2011, 10:15 AM
So, you are asking me to switch for $1000 which includes the 50% discount and in the future will be paying over $1000 for upgrades when Final Cut Pro costs $300 and Apple has stated they will have updates to bring back the missing functions.
Where is the logic in that?

cburton
Jul 1, 2011, 10:16 AM
I know... BUT... more features is not my goal...

I want a solid platform. So ill keep using FCP for now.. but when X has some more features Ill get it.

Windows gives me more features to.. but hey, I don't want that platform.

Same for me ... only 1 seat here at our mom and pop operation so I have no need to get new software. I can wait until some more features are added if I need to. Now, big companies may need to add seats ... what to do then?

NAG
Jul 1, 2011, 10:18 AM
I consider myself a "pro", not so much in the field of video editing, but in graphic design and photography. I've also taken some video editing courses and am knowledgeable. From my experience, I feel as though most pros don't usually freak out like this. This whole "burn it now because the new version sucks!" attitude is ridiculous. Most pros usually say "you know, I think I'm just going to keep using what I've got and see how this whole upgrade business ends up shaking out over the course of the next 6 to 12 months." Most pros don't upgrade right away. We are pretty set in our ways, and while embracing new tech is great and we do it often, we understand that it's not always the best idea to jump straight to another platform right after it is released. This isn't play time, there is real money to be made and this is only a tool for us to get said money. If FCP 7 keeps working and they like it then many won't change anything for now.

Exactly, the only real issue is that you can't legally get more copies of FCP 7 if you need to expand. Apple should really address that issue and then probably everything would be just fine unless FCP X never gets new features.

Small White Car
Jul 1, 2011, 10:20 AM
I think you are making the point. For simple A/B edits, FCPX works great. The reason Adobe abandoned the A/B timeline was because it was not flexible enough for advanced edits. .

Ok, well you totally missed my point. Well, more than missed it. You've flipped me around 180 degrees.

My point is that I liked the fact that Premeire attempted to innovate. I also like the fact that the new Final Cut seems to be trying to do the same.


So when I say "I like that they're trying new things" I'm a bit baffled at how you read that as "I like old things that don't change."

And no, I'm not using Final Cut X because it doesn't do what i need yet. So I'm also curious how you determined I'm the "target market" for it since I can't even use it yet.

KnightWRX
Jul 1, 2011, 10:23 AM
On the other hand, that should be your first thought if you wanna go Lion.

Lion supports Carbon.

lucidmedia
Jul 1, 2011, 10:27 AM
So, you are asking me to switch for $1000 which includes the 50% discount and in the future will be paying over $1000 for upgrades when Final Cut Pro costs $300 and Apple has stated they will have updates to bring back the missing functions.
Where is the logic in that?

Many of the "features" that need to be added to FCPX will come from third parties.. at prices far higher than the current cost of FCPX. You cannot buy FCP based on cost...

SpinThis!
Jul 1, 2011, 10:27 AM
Most pros usually say "you know, I think I'm just going to keep using what I've got and see how this whole upgrade business ends up shaking out over the course of the next 6 to 12 months." Most pros don't upgrade right away.
That's true but quite frankly, Premiere really "grew up" the last couple versions while FCP stayed essentially the same since version 6, nearly 4 years ago. It would be like if Adobe moved Photoshop to 64-bit but neutured half the features including layers, cmyk support and not being able to open old psd files.

With no roadmap on when exactly pros are getting the features they need like giving pros more than one timeline track and the ability to turn off that magnetic timeline when they need it, I can see this playing out somewhat like the QuarkXPress -> InDesign transition.

Apple needs to put FCP 7 back on sale and add a utility to export FCP 7 projects to FCP X. Right now it's easier to import old FCP 7 projects into Premiere or Avid than it is to move to Apple's own software. That's just stupid.

soLoredd
Jul 1, 2011, 10:28 AM
I consider myself a "pro", not so much in the field of video editing, but in graphic design and photography. I've also taken some video editing courses and am knowledgeable. From my experience, I feel as though most pros don't usually freak out like this. This whole "burn it now because the new version sucks!" attitude is ridiculous. Most pros usually say "you know, I think I'm just going to keep using what I've got and see how this whole upgrade business ends up shaking out over the course of the next 6 to 12 months." Most pros don't upgrade right away. We are pretty set in our ways, and while embracing new tech is great and we do it often, we understand that it's not always the best idea to jump straight to another platform right after it is released. This isn't play time, there is real money to be made and this is only a tool for us to get said money. If FCP 7 keeps working and they like it then many won't change anything for now.

I think your post is spot-on and, in my opinion, a good number of the people making a huge stink about FCPX are coming out of the woodshed just to complain. Not all of them...but most.

It's amazing to me to see a product, not even one day old!, get shunned off by "every pro who has kept Apple afloat". I really want to question what the hell these "pros" are doing moving from a version of software that has been several years solidified to a day-one release. Lot of bandwagon jumpers, me thinks.

Hell0W0rld
Jul 1, 2011, 10:33 AM
Funny yesterday I thought Adobe should make use of the situation; and here they are...

Guess they know how to run a business.
If they could just make the interface of their products work more alike to each other, well just wishful thinking I guess...

TechKnow
Jul 1, 2011, 10:36 AM
I think your post is spot-on and, in my opinion, a good number of the people making a huge stink about FCPX are coming out of the woodshed just to complain. Not all of them...but most.

It's amazing to me to see a product, not even one day old!, get shunned off by "every pro who has kept Apple afloat". I really want to question what the hell these "pros" are doing moving from a version of software that has been several years solidified to a day-one release. Lot of bandwagon jumpers, me thinks.

Where is this idea coming from that the "pros" are switching on day one and are disappointed?

The idea is you have another station that you test new software and plugins on. I don't upgrade to new software mid project. I have a computer that is exclusively for testing. (Check my signature) I am sure most pros do also. After testing the new version, FCPX, most have decided it is "not ready for Prime Time" if you'll pardon the pun.

lucidmedia
Jul 1, 2011, 10:37 AM
I consider myself a "pro", not so much in the field of video editing, but in graphic design and photography. I've also taken some video editing courses and am knowledgeable. From my experience, I feel as though most pros don't usually freak out like this. This whole "burn it now because the new version sucks!" attitude is ridiculous. Most pros usually say "you know, I think I'm just going to keep using what I've got and see how this whole upgrade business ends up shaking out over the course of the next 6 to 12 months." Most pros don't upgrade right away. We are pretty set in our ways, and while embracing new tech is great and we do it often, we understand that it's not always the best idea to jump straight to another platform right after it is released. This isn't play time, there is real money to be made and this is only a tool for us to get said money. If FCP 7 keeps working and they like it then many won't change anything for now.

Most pros have no issues with learning new software or switching from Avid to FCP to Premiere... anyone with experience in the industry has cut on all three...

the outrage comes from the plain and simple fact that Apple has made it perfectly clear that they are no longer interested in supporting or continuing their line of professional tools and software. We all had a sense it was happening, but the other shoe dropped when we finally saw the features of FCPX and Apple released their FAQ answering the concerns raised.

SactoGuy18
Jul 1, 2011, 10:41 AM
I am going to watch with GREAT interest to see if Apple will by this fall offer what I describe as the "Advanced Professional Pack" that will add back the features of Final Cut Pro 7.0 to Final Cut Pro X, including the ability to work with Final Cut Pro 7.0 project files.

hayesk
Jul 1, 2011, 10:42 AM
They allow you to do all the other things FCPX is missing today, and allow you to buy additional licences, unlike FCP7, so if you're in any kind of business at all where you need that flexibility they still remotely work.

Very clever move from both companies. I suspect FCPX's marketshare will collapse.

I suspect that most people here spewing hyperbole don't understand the term "vocal minority."

hayesk
Jul 1, 2011, 10:43 AM
Reliability, with FCP X you can not neither. At least 3 years from now you know with Avid or Adobe you will be able to open your files from 5 years ago.

Funny that, no Mac using video editor has Adobe Premiere files from 5 years ago. I wonder why that is?

lucidmedia
Jul 1, 2011, 10:43 AM
It's amazing to me to see a product, not even one day old!, get shunned off by "every pro who has kept Apple afloat". I really want to question what the hell these "pros" are doing moving from a version of software that has been several years solidified to a day-one release. Lot of bandwagon jumpers, me thinks.

When a Pro video application does not support an EDL or an external broadcast monitor, you have a tool that cannot be used in a professional workflow. It does not take more than 15 minutes to realize that.

Few pros "jumped" as you say.. they are simply dismayed that they will be forced to leave an EOL product for a competitor.

scottwaugh
Jul 1, 2011, 10:43 AM
They allow you to do all the other things FCPX is missing today, and allow you to buy additional licences, unlike FCP7, so if you're in any kind of business at all where you need that flexibility they still remotely work.

Very clever move from both companies. I suspect FCPX's marketshare will collapse.

Phazer

Excellent points- Avid and Adobe are there for the business market. I think that is an overall forest for the trees thing people miss. Apple is there for the individual (consumer market), not the business market. I think that FCPX's sales will be huge, but that FCPX's market-share to video editing shops (with more than one seat of NLE workflow) will plummet from FCS.

Apple wrote FCP X for the FCE market (the $300 market, the single user market) and they don't care (other than the PR black eye they've unnecessarily given themselves here) whether the $1000+ true professional market comes or goes - they aren't a company that focuses on silo'd professional level software and have been eliminating what they have over the last 5 years - it isn't who they are and it isn't where they are going.

For all the shops that have multi-seat NLE workflows - this is a wake up call. Make sure your NLE vendor needs your professional market as much or more than you need them. Avid, Adobe etc. do, Apple doesn't and that's not a good place to anchor your business (and the fact that Apple is running away from anything that isn't consumerish at a rapid rate).

I love Apple, but in 10 years I can feel pretty confident Adobe and Avid will be making professional level NLE software - in 10 years I can't confidently say whether Apple will even be making Macs, let alone multi-user workflow NLE software. Final Cut Pro, in 10 years, may be on iPads by that time. JMHO...

BreuerEditor
Jul 1, 2011, 10:45 AM
I'm in no position to judge any of it.

I just wonder why the pros now "have to" update (to FCPX or to Adobe or Avid). Just for the sake of it and boredom? Doesn't FCP 7 do it anymore?

Why all this?

FCP7 still is completely functional, but the issues are the following:

1) Post houses can no longer purchase new licenses for FCS3 (since it's been pulled off the shelf) when they need to buy a new computer and load all of their editing software, hence resulting in a standstill.

2) We don't NEED to update to FCPX, but when our pro editing software reaches EOL (End Of Life), we need to migrate to software that will meet our needs of new file formats, faster speeds, access to more memory, third-party plugins, and tech support that keep our companies running at full speed. A decent amount of slow-down and our client base drops as well as our income. FCP7 support from Apple has ceased since it is now a discontinued product.

We need a company that is going to be devoted to their pro users (not consumer electronics and software). Apple's software focus is set for consumers and prosumers. There's nothing wrong with that, except that it's not the focus pros need. Hence why Avid and Adobe are a great choice to switch over to.

FrizzleFryBen
Jul 1, 2011, 10:47 AM
I will be buying 2 copies of Production Premium today! My people prefer AE over Motion anyway...it's just more powerful and has better plug-ins available.

Pretty smart of Adobe to try to gain market share while people seem upset with an Apple product. I'm just taking advantage of 50% of something I was going to buy in the near future anyway.

PS - Apple, I want my corporate login for App Store!

daneoni
Jul 1, 2011, 10:51 AM
Don't really think Apple cares in the grand scheme.

BreuerEditor
Jul 1, 2011, 10:51 AM
Few pros "jumped" as you say.. they are simply dismayed that they will be forced to leave an EOL product for a competitor.

Exactly! I didn't "jump ship". Simply need to look to software that isn't EOL that I'm going to be able to use in the future and not be worried about a new format or feature that everyone else is able to do.

jonnysods
Jul 1, 2011, 10:53 AM
This is a great counter move. Apple need to break out in a sweat from the competition from time to time. They certainly aren't seeing much in the tablet market!

42streetsdown
Jul 1, 2011, 10:53 AM
I don't think that many people will jump ship on FCP. Many studios have workflow entrenched in Final Cut 7 and will stick with that. Also, it's still going to cost studios tons to switch. These discounts bring prices to what FCS 7 was, and when it comes time to upgrade you new system after you switch you'll be paying the full price to Avid or Adobe. That simply isn't an option for studios with lower budgets.

BreuerEditor
Jul 1, 2011, 10:54 AM
I will be buying 2 copies of Production Premium today! My people prefer AE over Motion anyway...it's just more powerful and has better plug-ins available.

AE has been FAR superior than Motion. Just look at the price differences. AE: $1,000. Motion: $50 This just goes to show you that by Apple making the app $50, they're going after the consumer than the professionals. I use AE everyday, and I wouldn't dare try to sell my motion graphics capabilities with a $50 backbone.

.02

hayesk
Jul 1, 2011, 10:55 AM
Most pros have no issues with learning new software or switching from Avid to FCP to Premiere... anyone with experience in the industry has cut on all three...

Amongst all the outrage about missing FCP 7 import is childish complaints from Pros who refuse to learn the FCPX UI. Don't expect to believe these bunch of egomaniacs have no issues with learning new software.

the outrage comes from the plain and simple fact that Apple has made it perfectly clear that they are no longer interested in supporting or continuing their line of professional tools and software. We all had a sense it was happening, but the other shoe dropped when we finally saw the features of FCPX and Apple released their FAQ answering the concerns raised.

Apple spent years to re-architect FCPX so they can actually provide cutting edge performance for years to come, and enabling faster and more productive editing sessions, and this is "plain and simple" that Apple is not interested in their line of professional tools?

In a year or two, nobody's going to care. The whiners here are right to be upset that they can't have the new features today, but to shout "Apple doesn't care about us anymore, Boo hoo!" is ridiculous. The missing features will come back, whether from Apple or a third party plugin.

And if third party plugins aren't good enough, well tough. Pro video editing is already a niche market. Expecting Apple to support one small subsection of a niche is silly. Wouldn't you rather Apple concentrate on the core editing features rather than import and export features that only a small section of the market uses? That's a perfect opportunity for third parties. Not everyone needs the same set of features. No you can use FCPX and buy a set of plugins you need, and another editor can buy a different set of plugins, freeing Apple's development resources up to concentrate on the core functionality. Apple even reduced the price so you'll be able to afford to buy the third party plugins you need.

This is another case of the vocal minority getting their say. I'd wager that most FCP users are not upset, it's just that their opinion doesn't make headlines, because that's not controversial or exciting.

42streetsdown
Jul 1, 2011, 10:55 AM
I will be buying 2 copies of Production Premium today! My people prefer AE over Motion anyway...it's just more powerful and has better plug-ins available.

Pretty smart of Adobe to try to gain market share while people seem upset with an Apple product. I'm just taking advantage of 50% of something I was going to buy in the near future anyway.

PS - Apple, I want my corporate login for App Store!

After Effects isn't the same kind of program as Motion. It's more akin to Shake.

bearcatrp
Jul 1, 2011, 10:55 AM
Their are more consumers than pro's out there. Apple is going where the money is at. Smart move for business, bad for the pro's who just got royally screwed over. I'll wait a bit to see if FCPX actually gets updated with better features.

Fraaaa
Jul 1, 2011, 10:56 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

On the other hand, that should be your first thought if you wanna go Lion.

Lion supports Carbon.

Sorry, I'm just a bit confused at this point. Wasn't Rosetta supposed to use Carbon libraries? And Lion would have drop those and that is the reason why FCPX has been rewritten in Cocoa and also take advantage of 64bit and GCD and such?

ScifiterX
Jul 1, 2011, 10:59 AM
But Final Cut Pro 7 users who didn't upgrade right away may make the switch, if they can't import their prior projects to Final Cut Pro X, then why buy it?

Because despite the new interface and shortcomings (some of which Apple is supposedly working on) there are many good and some cases added features.

I would note that other than transitioning to a new version complete mid-project (which I can fully understand wanting to do) there isn't a lot of benefit to importing prior projects. You rarely if ever edit completed projects and running them back and forth between old versions and new one is problematic because very often the new version has feature the old one lacks and there's data loss as a result.

FrizzleFryBen
Jul 1, 2011, 11:01 AM
After Effects isn't the same kind of program as Motion. It's more akin to Shake.

I'm sorry, Motion and a piece of software that hasn't been updated in how many years now? Motion is Motion and Shake is dead and AE, you're right, does it all.

chaosconan
Jul 1, 2011, 11:01 AM
Many of the "features" that need to be added to FCPX will come from third parties.. at prices far higher than the current cost of FCPX. You cannot buy FCP based on cost...

Maybe Apple will have an update soon that will allow support for all the third party add-ons from FCP7. Sort of like Rosette!

phpmaven
Jul 1, 2011, 11:02 AM
Be really interesting over the rest of the year to see how Apple fairs in the professional video arena, looks like their market share is set to drop considerably... I believe it was about 45-50% of the pro editing market...

I doubt it will be that big of a deal. There are always a minority who make a lot of noise about things and you would think that a product is doomed if you just focused on the negative comments. I'm sure Apple will address the shortcomings in the months ahead and people will then be singing their praises. They might lose a few users, but I don't think there will be that many people who will jump ship to the competition. Those that do were probably already thinking about switching.

I think that the average FCP user will adopt a "wait-and-see" attitude. With the negative press swirling, you can bet that Steve and CO will put put a priority on fixing the shortcomings. Not that they will make every pro happy, but I think most will come on board.

Rodimus Prime
Jul 1, 2011, 11:03 AM
They allow you to do all the other things FCPX is missing today, and allow you to buy additional licences, unlike FCP7, so if you're in any kind of business at all where you need that flexibility they still remotely work.

Very clever move from both companies. I suspect FCPX's marketshare will collapse.

Phazer

I think it is more that Final cut market share in the pro world will collapse. FCPX will get a lot of sells to prosurmers and people who want to play around with it but lets face it Apple is leaving the pro market.

tbrinkma
Jul 1, 2011, 11:04 AM
Sorry, I'm just a bit confused at this point. Wasn't Rosetta supposed to use Carbon libraries? And Lion would have drop those and that is the reason why FCPX has been rewritten in Cocoa and also take advantage of 64bit and GCD and such?

No, but you're close. Rosetta used *PPC* libraries, and Lion has dropped those. FCPX was rewritten (in Cocoa) to take advantage of new features that don't exist in PPC versions of OS X, like GCD and such.

handsome pete
Jul 1, 2011, 11:06 AM
If FCP 7 keeps working and they like it then many won't change anything for now.

That's the problem. FCP7 does still work, but its progress has been pretty stagnant over the past several years while competitors have grown leaps and bounds. A lot of people were expecting this update to take FCP to a new level and not only catch up, but to surpass the others. In some ways it has. But it's simply not suitable in its current state for the professional broadcast market. Because of that, this release has unveiled the suggestion that Apple is now solely focusing on the prosumer/consumer customer. That's all fine and good, but since FCP7 was getting pretty old in the tooth anyway, it's time for a lot of studios to map out their upgrade path. As of now, FCPX won't cut it and Apple has left doubts as to if it ever will. So while no one was ever going to just switch overnight, this release has given a lot of people reason to shift their plans to Adobe or Avid. And now both companies have given them even more incentive.

So, you are asking me to switch for $1000 which includes the 50% discount and in the future will be paying over $1000 for upgrades when Final Cut Pro costs $300 and Apple has stated they will have updates to bring back the missing functions.
Where is the logic in that?

The FAQ Apple published was a joke. It was all workarounds and claims that things will be coming. But a lot of that might just be through 3rd party support. So despite the little bit of information Apple has put out there, there is still too much unknown.

Exactly, the only real issue is that you can't legally get more copies of FCP 7 if you need to expand. Apple should really address that issue and then probably everything would be just fine unless FCP X never gets new features.

There are still vendors out there that can get you FCP7. We just added 2 seats this past week.

When a Pro video application does not support an EDL or an external broadcast monitor, you have a tool that cannot be used in a professional workflow. It does not take more than 15 minutes to realize that.

Few pros "jumped" as you say.. they are simply dismayed that they will be forced to leave an EOL product for a competitor.

Precisely. Even if there are no immediate plans to jump ship, these discounts from Adobe and Avid are enough where some might just purchase anyway to have another tool in their arsenal. And that alone will make any transition easier once the future of FCP is more fleshed out.

*LTD*
Jul 1, 2011, 11:06 AM
It doesn't seem that FCPX sucks enough to get users to switch en masse. There are some users that appear to *want* to use it and are trying to find reasons to just stick with it. It's interesting.

Then again, I'm not a Pro (when it comes to video editing, that is) so I really can't comment on features and what's lacking.

However, consumers and prosumers are very well served by all this, that's for sure. It does seem that Apple is bringing previously or currently "Pro" tools into the consumer realm as if to say "here, you can be a star, too." No one else seems to care to do this but Apple. It's an absolutely brilliant move and the advantages certainly outweigh the disadvantages, but it does come with a little bit of sacrifice, sadly: the top-end of the Pro market.

EDIT:

That's right folks, keep voting this down. The truth can be frightening. It's perfectly understandable.

NAG
Jul 1, 2011, 11:09 AM
I don't understand the people who switch over to a new program so quickly (FCP X or Premiere). Heck, you should even be careful when upgrading versions of Microsoft Office.

till213
Jul 1, 2011, 11:09 AM
Can the Adobe solution import FCP7 files? If it can't what is the point?

I am not a pro (FCP user), but to my understanding FCP can export to XML and Premiere can import this (maybe with some loss, e.g. "plugin compatibility")?

AaronEdwards
Jul 1, 2011, 11:18 AM
I think being able to slash 50% off your original selling price really says something about just how much you (over)value your product.

It says a lot about how many Adobe would prefer that former FCP users chose them and not Avid, and vice versa.

Both companies know that FCP users are going to jump ship, get them now and they will hopefully stay for years. I mean they have been very faithful to Apple despite the current history of FCP.

reel2reel
Jul 1, 2011, 11:21 AM
Screw Avid.

I've never ever seen a compelling reason to suffer through their software. I'd rather go to Adobe or even Sony's NLE before giving Avid a penny of my hard-earned money.

Apple's gonna come through, though.

vartanarsen
Jul 1, 2011, 11:21 AM
Can someone please tell me, in laymans terms and in a nutshell, what the difference is between iMovie (free with mac) and Final Cut Pro?

ryanw
Jul 1, 2011, 11:25 AM
I think your post is spot-on and, in my opinion, a good number of the people making a huge stink about FCPX are coming out of the woodshed just to complain. Not all of them...but most.

It's amazing to me to see a product, not even one day old!, get shunned off by "every pro who has kept Apple afloat". I really want to question what the hell these "pros" are doing moving from a version of software that has been several years solidified to a day-one release. Lot of bandwagon jumpers, me thinks.

Really? It doesn't seem that hard to understand. FCP7 is no longer for sale. There are no more upgrade cycles to it. It's not being maintained for even a minute longer. Apple has deemed it DEAD, unable to purchase, the only thing legally available to load for a new user is FCPX.

FCPX is NOT an upgrade to FCP7. It's an entirely new product. Apple should maintaine support and update codecs in "Final Cut Pro" in tandem with this new product line FCPX until it is ready to be "PRO".

PRO Users are NOT consumers. Consumers flock to whatever the latest and greatest hot now thing is. PROs have take years of building up their work streams and building entire shops built around FCP. Any shop editing with legacy software will slowly but surely die a horrible death. It is important to be at the cusp of the cutting edge when working in the trenches in the pro circles. The shop would be dead in the water if the producers move to the new camera XYZ but the workflow is 10x slower because the codec isn't supported by he legacy software....

PROs have been knee jerked around by apple all these years and taken it. Thrown around between different processors having to buy all new plugins and upgrade whem perhaps they might not have had to upgrade "everything". Apple got rid of Shake, tons of pros knew shake and owned shake and wanted to continue to use shake, but just got thrown away. And now they're seeing that they are completely at the mercy of apple with their #1 software (Final Cut Pro) that they use on a daily basis. Apple could all of a sudden decide to just axe FCPX all together and stick with iMovie. Will that happen? Apparently it depends on what side of the bed Steve wakes up that morning.

Any "RATIONAL SOFTWARE COMPANY" would sell software and maintain software as long as it's in demand. If the general community wants specific features, they will work towards implementing those features. Apple is not a rational software company. They're a forerunner, forward thinking company. Great! Awesome! Amazing! But when working with Pro's, they need to handle things a little differently. "Think Different" Apple! Don't treat your pros like consumers. They will flock in droves to a more secure environment if they're afraid of loosing all their time invested in learning and integrating a software into their workstream. It's not that easy to just flip and switch to new stuff. No matter how much better it is, the professional world needs options and a transition period.

israelagm
Jul 1, 2011, 11:26 AM
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction."

- Albert Einstein

rmwebs
Jul 1, 2011, 11:27 AM
I think being able to slash 50% off your original selling price really says something about just how much you (over)value your product.

Yeah sure....just like how OS X dropped from $120 to $25 when Snow Leopard was released. :rolleyes:

nerdo
Jul 1, 2011, 11:28 AM
Avid Mediacomposer 5.5 crossgrade: check
Adobe Prodution suite premium CS5.5 upgrade: check
Apple Final Cut X appstore impulse buy: Check

Riiight, guess now I need to shoot something I can edit in all three and see what fits my way of working best....

Let me whip out the 5D, 7D, LX3, iPhone and TZ20 and see how we can get this "modern" workflow to break.

Any ideas? :)

AaronEdwards
Jul 1, 2011, 11:30 AM
For Premiere 7 (aka CS1) they dropped Mac support, blaming the presence of FCP being too much competition for them. I believe Macs got OS X support with CS3, four years later. So yeah, no company is a saint here.

Major difference here is that Adobe dropped support for Mac, Premiere users who needed the software could move to Windows. Adobe crippling Premiere for every OS would have been comparable to what Apple has done to FCP.

AaronEdwards
Jul 1, 2011, 11:33 AM
I'm in no position to judge any of it.

I just wonder why the pros now "have to" update (to FCPX or to Adobe or Avid). Just for the sake of it and boredom? Doesn't FCP 7 do it anymore?

Why all this?

FCP 7 has been lacking a big update for a while. Then came FCPX. The writing is on the wall, there's no reason for staying with software that is dead.

reel2reel
Jul 1, 2011, 11:34 AM
Amongst all the outrage about missing FCP 7 import is childish complaints from Pros who refuse to learn the FCPX UI. Don't expect to believe these bunch of egomaniacs have no issues with learning new software.


Apple spent years to re-architect FCPX so they can actually provide cutting edge performance for years to come, and enabling faster and more productive editing sessions, and this is "plain and simple" that Apple is not interested in their line of professional tools?

In a year or two, nobody's going to care. The whiners here are right to be upset that they can't have the new features today, but to shout "Apple doesn't care about us anymore, Boo hoo!" is ridiculous. The missing features will come back, whether from Apple or a third party plugin.

And if third party plugins aren't good enough, well tough. Pro video editing is already a niche market. Expecting Apple to support one small subsection of a niche is silly. Wouldn't you rather Apple concentrate on the core editing features rather than import and export features that only a small section of the market uses? That's a perfect opportunity for third parties. Not everyone needs the same set of features. No you can use FCPX and buy a set of plugins you need, and another editor can buy a different set of plugins, freeing Apple's development resources up to concentrate on the core functionality. Apple even reduced the price so you'll be able to afford to buy the third party plugins you need.

This is another case of the vocal minority getting their say. I'd wager that most FCP users are not upset, it's just that their opinion doesn't make headlines, because that's not controversial or exciting.

Ah man, five paragraphs of nonsense. Nothing you've said has any bearing on reality.

Do everyone a favour....if you're going to rant on about something you know nothing about, at least read what's come before and educate yourself a bit. You're missing every point and making a big stink about issues that don't even exist.

ericmooreart
Jul 1, 2011, 11:35 AM
The most compelling reason for my company to switch to Premiere is we already have a site license for 100+ (Production Suite) seats.

And...

Adobe is so much more reliable then Apple

Consultant
Jul 1, 2011, 11:38 AM
I don't understand the people who switch over to a new program so quickly (FCP X or Premiere). Heck, you should even be careful when upgrading versions of Microsoft Office.

Exactly. Final Cut Studio 3 and FCP 7 won't stop working.

AaronEdwards
Jul 1, 2011, 11:39 AM
I suspect that most people here spewing hyperbole don't understand the term "vocal minority."

Professional FCP users are a minority in the way that they will not just take what Apple is doing sitting down, they will not just applaud Apple and praise about how they are changing how we do things.
And yes, they are vocal about it.

They aren't sheeple.

igazza
Jul 1, 2011, 11:41 AM
...and there goes another one of Apple's pro products. What's left now? They've only got Logic Pro to **** up and they are totally an average-joe based company. :(

I doubt logic will even get updated. apple probably make more money selling garageband for ipad.

Popeye206
Jul 1, 2011, 11:41 AM
I think it is more that Final cut market share in the pro world will collapse. FCPX will get a lot of sells to prosurmers and people who want to play around with it but lets face it Apple is leaving the pro market.

Disagree. Their statement earlier this week shows this. They obviously were under a development deadline and had to make cuts to hit their release date.

FCPX was a huge change from what I can see, and because of that, had to take a step backwards for a bit.

I don't think they're out... just regrouping on new code.

winston1236
Jul 1, 2011, 11:42 AM
I don't understand the people who switch over to a new program so quickly (FCP X or Premiere). Heck, you should even be careful when upgrading versions of Microsoft Office.

yea remember when they took away the toolbar and nobody could find anything

skellener
Jul 1, 2011, 11:48 AM
Funny, this is exactly how I started using Final Cut.

I don't remember the details, but I think it had to do with the OS9 - OSX switch and Apple offered steep discounts for the new Final Cut if you turned in your Adobe Premiere disks to them.

I don't remember the exact reason...maybe Adobe was being slow to adapt to OSX?...but I took the offer and have been on Final Cut ever since through many versions.

So...I guess this kind of thing does work. I did the same thing. Sent in my old Premier CD to Apple and got Final Cut Express (for free I believe). I think I only upgraded once to FCX4. Still works fine. I'm not going to tape or anything. Still looking at FCPX. I think for me it would be fine. For the Pros who need the things Apple left out/weren't ready, they should either stick with FCP7 and wait and see how FCPX shapes up, or have a look at one of these new switcher options.

handsome pete
Jul 1, 2011, 11:50 AM
That's right folks, keep voting this down. The truth can be frightening. It's perfectly understandable.

Hilarious. I thought I even made a coherent and objective statement and saw that I had a negative vote. I'm wondering what point the voting serves. Seems like people just like to troll the boards and vote down any opposite opinion.

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction."

- Albert Einstein

Great quote, but it doesn't apply here.

There's nothing genius about stripping away necessary tools without providing an alternative to get things done. That's stupidity.


Exactly. Final Cut Studio 3 and FCP 7 won't stop working.

Again, that's not the point. FCP7 was getting old already. It still works, but many were already planning out their upgrade road map. FCPX would have been the logical next step. That's not an option in its current state, and it might not be 6 months to a year from now. So now people have to strongly consider alternate options.

gkpm
Jul 1, 2011, 11:50 AM
Well I needed something a lot better than iMovie but not enough to shell out even this now discounted $1000.

So Final Cut Pro X filled that spot perfectly.

AaronEdwards
Jul 1, 2011, 11:51 AM
First off you should congratulate yourself some more. So, the fact that the hardware just works and you don't worry about viruses, isn't the reason to own a Mac? I convinced several people to switch and never used FCP and they didn't either. A little bitter are we?

What's the reason to own a Mac, with the hardware working and being virus free, if you can't do what you want with it?

While we are at it, FCP users had to use Macs, Premiere and Avid users don't have to.

handsome pete
Jul 1, 2011, 11:53 AM
Disagree. Their statement earlier this week shows this. They obviously were under a development deadline and had to make cuts to hit their release date.

FCPX was a huge change from what I can see, and because of that, had to take a step backwards for a bit.

I don't think they're out... just regrouping on new code.

If you're talking about the FAQ they published this week, that shows nothing. They provided a bunch of workarounds (which if they're the new way to do things, then they're not an improvement), made claims that some things were coming (possibly soon or in a major update down the road), or are just letting 3rd party developers take care of the rest.

The FAQ provided more questions than answers.

autrefois
Jul 1, 2011, 11:54 AM
Some things to consider:

-Adobe Premiere can import XML files, and FCP7 can export XML files (and vice versa), so you can open FCP7 projects in Premiere (FCPX can neither import or export XML files natively)

This is kind of like when Apple pwned Microsoft by coming out with the ability to open .docx on the Mac before Microsoft had their own solution. It wasn't perfect, but at least you could open and work with them. And people poked fun at Microsoft for Apple beating them to it, but it was Apple's OS after all.

Here, it's even worse IMHO. From what I understand, Apple's FCP X can't open FCP 7 projects in any way, shape, or form on *Mac* OS X, while Adobe's Premiere can if exported into XML. Again, not perfect, but at least you can open and work with them. So Adobe's latest offering on the Mac is more compatible that Apple's own offering...

It's not exactly the same situation, but it makes Apple look bad. Apple should have waited to release this until **at least** XML import/export was possible in FCP X; it looks really bad when your competitor's product can work with files created in your application and your product can't, especially on your own OS!

I'm not a FCP user, but I am a die-hard Mac user. I just hope Apple learns their lesson from this debacle and doesn't pull something like this with its other software (you would think after iMovie they would have learned...).

ChrisA
Jul 1, 2011, 11:55 AM
Mr. Jobs THINKS the high-end editing market is not important to Apple because there are so few of them compared to those working small projects like weddings and events and you tube and corporate training video and the like. Steve is right about the numbers

Where he gets it wrong is that ..

(1) All these guys doing small projects want to move up the food chain and one day work on major motion pictures. So they want to use the same tools as the "big guys" so they can claim to have the required skills. They want to be able to say "I have been using the Industry Standard for many years" They know they will be laughed out of the interview it they claim to be an "iMovie Expert" and it looks like that same might happen to an "FCP X expert"

(2) Even those who are more realistic and even home users not working in the industry at all, when they decide what to buy that will ask "what do the pros use?" and they will buy that. Pretty much the same as when amateur photographer see all those white Canon SLR camera lenses on the sidelines of pro sports games and then decide to buy Canon themselves "becase that is what pros use." Dumb reasoning, but that's the way it works.

I think Apple has set them selves up to fail in the long run. They NEED to be seen as having Apple pro apps used by the top professionals. It's an image thing. What else does Apple have but "image". The only way to do that is to invite pros back into the software development process.

woodbine
Jul 1, 2011, 12:00 PM
So, you are asking me to switch for $1000 which includes the 50% discount and in the future will be paying over $1000 for upgrades when Final Cut Pro costs $300 and Apple has stated they will have updates to bring back the missing functions.
Where is the logic in that?

I think if you read the latest FAQ's from Apple, they will be releasing the API's for most of the pro features to 3rd party developers. So that nice price of $299 will soon become $599....$799....$999.
Automatic Duck is $500 and yes it does all sorts of good stuff, but when you only need one feature, it looks very expensive.
I need to import subtitle files in XML. I want a free tool within FCPX to do that.
Having been an Apple user since 1998 and very happy so far, my trust in Apple has been severely dented this year. No more iWeb, no more iDisk, EOL on FCP7 and FCPX not up to snuff.

NAG
Jul 1, 2011, 12:00 PM
Major difference here is that Adobe dropped support for Mac, Premiere users who needed the software could move to Windows. Adobe crippling Premiere for every OS would have been comparable to what Apple has done to FCP.

Oh yeah, completely different. Adobe wanted you to buy all new hardware when they stopped supporting Premiere on Mac for around four years, completely reasonable. :rolleyes:

Let me get this straight, using a legacy/poorly supported app until the new one is ready for your use = bad but buying all knew pro computers or at the very least licenses for Windows and running all the computers in boot camp (assuming you even had Intel Macs and they weren't PPC because this happened even before Intel Macs existed) = completely reasonable.

Huh?

Adobe is a Windows first, Mac maybe developer. Everything is fine when the weather is sunny.

gkpm
Jul 1, 2011, 12:02 PM
(1) All these guys doing small projects want to move up the food chain and one day work on major motion pictures. So they want to use the same tools as the "big guys" so they can claim to have the required skills.

Maybe true for you but at least I have no interest in moving up the food chain. I've seen the motion picture industry and have no interest in going there.


(2) Even those who are more realistic and even home users not working in the industry at all, when they decide what to buy that will ask "what do the pros use?" and they will buy that.

But then how many are actually going to shell out $3000 or even just $1000 for that? People buy high end DSLRs because it's HARDWARE.

I don't see home users dropping that kind of cash for software when they can put it to better use by buying a better camera.

Unless Adobe is planning a version of Premiere at FCPX price levels I don't see how Apple should be worried about.

robeddie
Jul 1, 2011, 12:02 PM
So it is easier to learn a completely new program from another vendor? I fail to see the logic. Do these products import FCP 7? I understand if it is a feature issue, but they can continue using 7 until the features in X are rolled out.

Yes. As has already been said here, Premiere can not only import FCP EDL's and files, it also has built-in presets for final cut 7 keyboard shortcuts.

On top of the everything the overall layout and tools and where they're located is VERY similar between Premiere 5.5 and Final Cut 6/7.

In our office it took less than an hour 10 minutes for our editors to find their effects/presets etc. and start editing.

min_t
Jul 1, 2011, 12:05 PM
They allow you to do all the other things FCPX is missing today, and allow you to buy additional licences, unlike FCP7, so if you're in any kind of business at all where you need that flexibility they still remotely work.

Very clever move from both companies. I suspect FCPX's marketshare will collapse.

Phazer

bwhahaha....good one. :apple: loses 10k pro whiners but gains 10 million normal ones. everybody wins.

*LTD*
Jul 1, 2011, 12:06 PM
I think Apple has set them selves up to fail in the long run. They NEED to be seen as having Apple pro apps used by the top professionals. It's an image thing. What else does Apple have but "image". The only way to do that is to invite pros back into the software development process.

Their image is maintained by a segment of the market that has nothing to do with FCPX and most of whom have never even heard about it: the average consumer. Apple puts Joe Average front and centre and then treats him like a VIP by selling him usable, beautiful, desirable products. These do not include Pro tools. That is the strategy. There are no lineups outside Stores for FCPX. Apple's image *used to* be maintained by Pros. Back when they weren't making any money.

Apple could cut out the Pro market entirely and continue hitting new highs every quarter, unabated. Apple's image comes from great device + great interface + robust ecosystem. Pro tools need not apply.

The "trickle down" theory that is being applied here, doesn't actually apply. Overall, Apple actually *gains* by doing this, by broadening the functionality and breadth of consumer-level apps. It paves the way for the consumer to move into the pro-sumer bracket. That's a big deal. No one else is doing this. No one else is offering this level of empowerment.

It sucks for some folks, I know, but it's true.

bretm
Jul 1, 2011, 12:09 PM
Can the Adobe solution import FCP7 files? If it can't what is the point?

Yes it can. Export XML from FCP 7, then import FCP XML in Premiere. It works remarkably well. You can even go back to FCP or to After Effects.

And why would it matter? FCP X can't even do that, and has said publicly they have no plans to. That it's too complex for them.

Kavok
Jul 1, 2011, 12:16 PM
Why would someone switch applications if they are still not going to be able to use old projects in the new application? Whether they switch to Adobe or use FCX, they are in the same boat. I don't see people flocking to Adobe over this. I think people will find work-arounds until Apple gets their act together and fixes FCX. Stupidity on Apple's part, but then they always do this when they're trying to push the envelope.

ericmooreart
Jul 1, 2011, 12:16 PM
I'm in no position to judge any of it.

I just wonder why the pros now "have to" update (to FCPX or to Adobe or Avid). Just for the sake of it and boredom? Doesn't FCP 7 do it anymore?

Why all this?

Since FCP 7 is no longer for sale, if you want to expand your company you can't If you want to start a business editing in FCP7 you can't. You could wait until the "Next Major Release" of FCX with all the pro level fixes but how long will that take?

Ted Witcher
Jul 1, 2011, 12:18 PM
Can FCPX import FCP7 files? If it can't what is the point? :eek::D

What is the point of needing this ability? Finish your project that you started in FCP7 in FCP7. It hasn't magically disappeared from your computer. Start a new project in FCX, whenever you feel it's ready.

2jaded2care
Jul 1, 2011, 12:18 PM
Well, the current tally on the app store is 429 5-star reviews vs. 639 1-star reviews. Doesn't strike me as a "vocal minority".

We will know more in the next week or so, when Apple either issues a mea culpa (as opposed to a rebuttal) for this crippleware, or stays silent in the face of criticism.

The former means they haven't completely written off the pros (some of whom I wouldn't be surprised to find out are bypassing the forums and emailing SJ directly).

The latter, well...

scottwaugh
Jul 1, 2011, 12:20 PM
Their image is maintained by a segment of the market that has nothing to do with FCPX and most of whom have never even heard about it: the average consumer. Apple puts Joe Average front and centre and then treats him like a VIP by selling him usable, beautiful, desirable products. These do not include Pro tools. That is the strategy. There are no lineups outside Stores for FCPX. Apple's image *used to* be maintained by Pros. Back when they weren't making any money.

Apple could cut out the Pro market entirely and continue hitting new highs every quarter, unabated. Apple's image comes from great device + great interface + robust ecosystem. Pro tools need not apply.

I think you're spot on here. True multi user workflow Pro tools (the few that are left) do not even fit into Apple as a company - its not what they're about in a strategic sense at all.

FCP X will be a huge success - it is a huge upgrade for FCExpress users and iMovie folks, but Adobe and Avid are the ones interested in the high end business market, not Apple, its not what Apple is about.

BreuerEditor
Jul 1, 2011, 12:25 PM
Disagree. Their statement earlier this week shows this. They obviously were under a development deadline and had to make cuts to hit their release date.

FCPX was a huge change from what I can see, and because of that, had to take a step backwards for a bit.

I don't think they're out... just regrouping on new code.

I respectfully disagree. Their new page they put up (http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/pro-features) about the "pro" features, comes off to me as them cowering away with their tail between their legs trying to hold onto their professional customer base, while it's clear that they're not interested in providing professional software anymore, but rather prosumer software that more people can use. The only thing I see wrong with them going in that direction is using the Final Cut Pro name. If they changed the name, there would be less people (including me) taking this so hard to the heART of editing.

.02

AaronEdwards
Jul 1, 2011, 12:25 PM
The "trickle down" theory that is being applied here, doesn't actually apply. Overall, Apple actually *gains* by doing this, by broadening the functionality and breadth of consumer-level apps. It paves the way for the consumer to move into the pro-sumer bracket. That's a big deal. No one else is doing this. No one else is offering this level of empowerment.

It sucks for some folks, I know, but it's true.

I'd call that targeting for the lowest common denominator, or racing to the bottom.

The television equivalent would be to air reality television and drop well written dramas.

JabbaII
Jul 1, 2011, 12:26 PM
Unless Adobe is planning a version of Premiere at FCPX price levels I don't see how Apple should be worried about.

The price is closer than you think.

If you need Automatic Duck (which is what the "pros" are saying):

Up Front:
FCP X solution = $300 FCP + $50 Motion + $50 Compression + $500 = $900
Switch to Adobe = Half price of premium production is around $950

And Adobe is a full suite, After Effects etc.

Upgrades:
FCP X: no upgrade price, assuming same price of $400 bucks all up (no assurances on what will be ripped out/included in next version)
Adobe: CS5.5 Upgrade is $400 (again this is the full suite based on a communicated roadmap)

Very attractive for pros
Tempting for prosumers who want to eventually master the whole editing process (color, sound etc.)

ericmooreart
Jul 1, 2011, 12:28 PM
What is the point of needing this ability? Finish your project that you started in FCP7 in FCP7. It hasn't magically disappeared from your computer. Start a new project in FCX, whenever you feel it's ready.

For an individual user thats fine. In a studio environment everyone need to have the same software. If John Blue, Sue Green and Sally Red start with the studio today they will have FCX. Since projects are constantly being updated and reused they will be out of the loop

ericmooreart
Jul 1, 2011, 12:31 PM
The price is closer than you think.

If you need Automatic Duck (which is what the "pros" are saying):

Up Front:
FCP X solution = $300 FCP + $50 Motion + $50 Compression + $500 = $900
Switch to Adobe = Half price of premium production is around $950

And Adobe is a full suite, After Effects etc.

Upgrades:
FCP X: no upgrade price, assuming same price of $400 bucks all up (no assurances on what will be ripped out/included in next version)
Adobe: CS5.5 Upgrade is $400 (again this is the full suite based on a communicated roadmap)

Very attractive for pros
Tempting for prosumers who want to eventually master the whole editing process (color, sound etc.)

Not to mention most pros already own the production suite because of After Effects and Photoshop

i.mac
Jul 1, 2011, 12:33 PM
...

I think Apple has set them selves up to fail in the long run. They NEED to be seen as having Apple pro apps used by the top professionals. It's an image thing. What else does Apple have but "image". The only way to do that is to invite pros back into the software development process.

another expert telling any one who listens why apple will fail, and what apple needs to do...

Meanwhile, apple, laughing out loud, picks up two+ average customer for every "pro" that drops out...

AaronEdwards
Jul 1, 2011, 12:37 PM
another expert telling any one who listens why apple will fail, and what apple needs to do...

Meanwhile, apple, laughing out loud, picks up two+ average customer for every "pro" that drops out...

Perhaps we should wait for the reports about average customers buying and loving FCP X?

----

I doubt that the average customers are those that 'think differently'.

bretm
Jul 1, 2011, 12:41 PM
Oh yeah, completely different. Adobe wanted you to buy all new hardware when they stopped supporting Premiere on Mac for around four years, completely reasonable. :rolleyes:

Let me get this straight, using a legacy/poorly supported app until the new one is ready for your use = bad but buying all knew pro computers or at the very least licenses for Windows and running all the computers in boot camp (assuming you even had Intel Macs and they weren't PPC because this happened even before Intel Macs existed) = completely reasonable.

Huh?

Adobe is a Windows first, Mac maybe developer. Everything is fine when the weather is sunny.

But what is the point of waiting until it's ready for your use? Still gonna be buggy then. And it's a complete application switch anyway. There's no upgrade path. There's no importing of old projects (hell, Premiere can import your FCP XMLs). And there's no real user base of freelancers, places to work, etc. Buy Production bundle from Adobe and you've got a full studio like FCP studio. You're gonna need a DVD app, and you're gonna need Photoshop and Illustrator just to exist. Might as well have premiere and After Effects. The yearly upgrades will cost less than FCP X + Motion + Compressor.

My suggestion - if you're an end to end solution house, I'd still get the Adobe Production bundle. You need it if you're on your own. You should have it already if you have the nerve to charge people for services. If you're a multi-user collaborative environment, Avid is the way to go by far. The only reason it hasn't been in the past was price compared to FCPs nearly equal or good enough feature set.

It's now a reboot. FCS is dead. People have been sticking with FCS waiting for the next release for 2 years nearly. In that time they were considering switching because the writing was on the wall. Apple has finally gone public with it's plans and editors/post production houses have to make a choice. Truthfully FCP X isn't even in the equation.

I've been using it for 11 years and it's not for me. I'm trying to figure out my next moves as well. I already have Premiere of course because I'm serious about my job. But I'm still thinking Avid is the way to go. Avid and Adobe just gave Apple a few months reprieve to get their act together for me.

edit: Adobe may be a windows first company, but Apple is definitly a gadget first, os second, computers third, software 4th company.

thevofl
Jul 1, 2011, 12:46 PM
I think a lot of people are missing the impact of these announcements. It isn't that a number of editors are going to switch, because some will. It isn't that Premiere and Avid have or don't have much needed features.

The bigger picture is the perception of Apple's strategy. Right now they are perceived as a pro-prosumer and indifferent to professionals. No matter what the reality is, the perception is not good. When it comes to a brand, perception is reality.

This is a PR nightmare for Apple. I knew it was bad when Conan O'Brien does a skit mocking your new product targeted for a technical industry (no matter how valid it is).

The sharks smell blood.

This is not helping either.

Apple is letting others shape the perception and hence the reality of Apple's own product. This is beginning to spill over into other products.

They need to address this in a meaningful way. Forget about the FAQ page or giving an interview here or there. Steve Jobs needs to have a press conference similar to the iPhone 4 Death Grip. It doesn't need to be as vast as inviting the broad newsmedia, but it needs to be as serious and impactful.

gkpm
Jul 1, 2011, 12:47 PM
The price is closer than you think.
If you need Automatic Duck (which is what the "pros" are saying):


But why would new users need Automatic Duck?

For new users wanting to move on from FCP Express and iMovie it's:

FCPX solution = $300 + optional Motion + Compressor = $400
Adobe: $1900 (you need to own FCP to get the crossgrade)

Yes you could now buy Adobe cheaper by buying FCP first (bit crazy though) so I'll give you you can buy Adobe for $1250, but it's still 3x the cost.

Tempting for prosumers who want to eventually master the whole editing process (color, sound etc.)

By the time prosumers master the FCPX process, Apple will have added more Pro level features to FCPX.

Truffy
Jul 1, 2011, 12:48 PM
The sharks smell blood.
Heh, I was thinking 'the vultures are circling', but your's is pithier! :D

NAG
Jul 1, 2011, 12:53 PM
But what is the point of waiting until it's ready for your use? Still gonna be buggy then. And it's a complete application switch anyway. There's no upgrade path. There's no importing of old projects (hell, Premiere can import your FCP XMLs). And there's no real user base of freelancers, places to work, etc. Buy Production bundle from Adobe and you've got a full studio like FCP studio. You're gonna need a DVD app, and you're gonna need Photoshop and Illustrator just to exist. Might as well have premiere and After Effects. The yearly upgrades will cost less than FCP X + Motion + Compressor.

The point of waiting is to make sure you end up with the right tool for the job instead of blindly running over to Adobe because you can't go download FCP X now and instantly integrate it into your workflow, forgetting that they screwed over their Mac customers even harder when they were moving their apps to OS X than Apple's botched transition with FCP X.

edit: Adobe may be a windows first company, but Apple is definitly a gadget first, os second, computers third, software 4th company.

Which is why they stopped updating OS X. Oh wait.

You have any evidence to support this claim about Apple? Plenty of evidence for the Adobe claim – UI changed to Windows centric, abandoned the Mac platform for the G5 era, Flash runs better on Windows and used to run much much better, etc...

Apple has continued to push forward with Mac technologies. Heck, your complaining about the new FCP X stuff is Apple pushing forward (for better or worse). Another example is Thunderbolt, you don't see that on an iOS device.

If you want to say something bad about Apple, say they're a think outside of the box company first, maintain the status quo second. That is exactly what is happening with FCP X. (Mind you, thinking outside the box doesn't automatically mean success, you can massively screw up doing that too.)

Chairman Plow
Jul 1, 2011, 12:55 PM
Perhaps we should wait for the reports about average customers buying and loving FCP X?

----

I doubt that the average customers are those that 'think differently'.

What about the average customer that aspires to do more? Most would probably be intimidated by "pro" software and the presumed (whether actual or not) learning curve that comes with it. It's quite possible that the idea was to inspire the average customer to 'think differently'.

Just a thought, because many 'pro' customers were 'average' customers first.

Truffy
Jul 1, 2011, 12:56 PM
After the CS5 installer **** up, I don't trust Adobe's QA.

Plus, plus, plus...their GUI both sucks and blows at the same time.

silentnite
Jul 1, 2011, 12:56 PM
What I have learned about consumers they always go for whats in at the time. Rather a product is good or bad what ever seems to be selling they want it. Specs or other wise not that important. If johnny has it bobs kids want it. That may be good short term but they can turn on you at the flick of a switch.

With that said it's always good to try and keep a balance.

DarkKnightNine
Jul 1, 2011, 12:59 PM
Yep once again Apple in their arrogant attitude toward their customers has once again screwed up. They place no value on the opinions and concerns of their 'Pro' market. They are making the common mistake that almost every large corporation does once they've gotten too big. They start to lose touch with their customer base and take them for granted and they stop innovating and place profitability as their top priority. Shame on you Apple. You could and should be the best!

Durendal
Jul 1, 2011, 01:06 PM
"Switching" at this point is idiotic unless you really need something right away and don't have FCP7 or FCP7 doesn't do what you need. FCPX is young. It'll grow. Give it a few months. In the meantime, nothing is preventing people from using FCP7 for the time being and seeing how things shake out. I doubt it'll be more than six months before the bulk of complaints about FCPX are addressed.

Relax, people. Apple should've waited a bit to make FCPX more complete, but it'll get there. If you don't like it, get a refund or sit tight and keep using what was working before unless you have a pretty immediate need for something bigger.

rgetter
Jul 1, 2011, 01:06 PM
Funny yesterday I thought Adobe should make use of the situation; and here they are...

Guess they know how to run a business.
If they could just make the interface of their products work more alike to each other, well just wishful thinking I guess...

The next thing Adobe needs to do is to bring Premiere Pro Mac up to the level of its PC product. I have Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and, in terms of transitions and effects, the situation hasn't changed much since CS4. A Creative Cow forum post (http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/3/894162) has some great screen-shots of side-by-side comparisons (here (http://i32.tinypic.com/22caa8.jpg) and here (http://i29.tinypic.com/2r7smtz.jpg)).

The sad thing is that, in terms of performance, flexibility and features, Premiere Pro is a great editing app that follows the "traditional" NLE paradigm, making the move from Final Cut less painful. But with the thin selection of digital effects on the Mac, it's like working in a million-dollar suite with a pro-sumer switcher/DVE (sorry, showing my age here).

Durendal
Jul 1, 2011, 01:08 PM
Yep once again Apple in their arrogant attitude toward their customers has once again screwed up. They place no value on the opinions and concerns of their 'Pro' market. They are making the common mistake that almost every large corporation does once they've gotten too big. They start to lose touch with their customer base and take them for granted and they stop innovating and place profitability as their top priority. Shame on you Apple. You could and should be the best!
Nice ignorant rant, toolbox. Have you read any of Apple's responses? They admit that yes, it is young, and yes, more features need to be added. They've stated that they're going to keep working on it and listed to users as to what features should be added. Multicam, Red support, etc are coming. FCPX is young and may have been released a bit too soon, but it'll mature.

They're actually refunding people via the App Store, something they have zero obligation to do.

Stop your ignorant kneejerking and actually read up on the issue.

SPUY767
Jul 1, 2011, 01:21 PM
I will be buying 2 copies of Production Premium today! My people prefer AE over Motion anyway...it's just more powerful and has better plug-ins available.

Pretty smart of Adobe to try to gain market share while people seem upset with an Apple product. I'm just taking advantage of 50% of something I was going to buy in the near future anyway.

PS - Apple, I want my corporate login for App Store!

Motion an AE server different purposes in my opinion. Sure, in the end, AE is more powerful, but you can put together effects in Motion way faster than the same things could be done in AE, in my experience. I've used motion in a pinch on a show site to do some pretty amazing stuff that I'd need hours to duplicate in AE.

layte
Jul 1, 2011, 01:29 PM
Lots of people here saying that pro users wont want to change from FCP. My father used to run a design and publishing house which he started up in the mid 1980's with Mac's running Aldus PageMaker. Aldus let software features stagnate which allowed Quark to come in and vacuum up customers (who never looked back). I can see something similar happening with current FCP pro users.

scottsjack
Jul 1, 2011, 01:31 PM
One of these days, maybe after the Mac Pro line is retired, Adobe might announce the end of Mac development for CS software. That would finally move Mac into the home computing/Internet/kitchen recipe relm.

That's why I do my work using PS CS5. I'm prepared to work on either the Mac or Windows platform. I prefer Mac but Apple my not prefer me! That's life.

the vj
Jul 1, 2011, 01:39 PM
Oh yeah, completely different. Adobe wanted you to buy all new hardware when they stopped supporting Premiere on Mac for around four years, completely reasonable. :rolleyes:

Let me get this straight, using a legacy/poorly supported app until the new one is ready for your use = bad but buying all knew pro computers or at the very least licenses for Windows and running all the computers in boot camp (assuming you even had Intel Macs and they weren't PPC because this happened even before Intel Macs existed) = completely reasonable.

Huh?

Adobe is a Windows first, Mac maybe developer. Everything is fine when the weather is sunny.

Back in 1999 Premiere was doing things FCP 7 still can not. I remember well using Premiere in my beige 233Mhz G3 and adding different kind of videos onto the timeline and they were rendered in real time and the transitions were animated, something that FCP 7 never did and FCP X is bragging about... 12 years later.

I remember switching to FCP because I had to. Consider that many software manufacturers where frustrated with Apple for several reasons, one of them the "Mhz myth" and all the softwares running very slow because it was one language on top the other and Apple was blaming "bad programming" on the developers side. I remember that well.

Skoal
Jul 1, 2011, 01:44 PM
I think being able to slash 50% off your original selling price really says something about just how much you (over)value your product.

Funny you wrote that on an APPLE forum considering everyone is well aware of the Apple tax! I'd say Adobe and others are looking to the future with this 50% sale and not just that they over value their stuff. If you hook the customer now you have them for the future. Loyalty in this market is high and they want to take advantage of that. Taking away from Apple!!

chaosconan
Jul 1, 2011, 01:47 PM
Can't you run FP7 and FPX side by side and slowly transition over as more add-ons become available for FPX?

Skoal
Jul 1, 2011, 01:49 PM
Yeah right. Adobe makes a deal and Apple product is dead. That's a very appropriate and logical conclusion.

Truth is it was Apple's to lose not Adobe's. So far Apple is doing this splendidly on their own!

Bubba Satori
Jul 1, 2011, 01:52 PM
Arguments and piffle aside, what precisely is "wrong" with Adobe software?

Apple doesn't make it, a priori, it's wrong.
Simple logic for the simple minded.

Durendal
Jul 1, 2011, 01:57 PM
Can't you run FP7 and FPX side by side and slowly transition over as more add-ons become available for FPX?
Certainly. Having one does not prevent the other from working.

milo
Jul 1, 2011, 02:01 PM
I doubt logic will even get updated. apple probably make more money selling garageband for ipad.

Logic was just updated a few weeks ago, there have been quite a few updates since 9.0. If they were going to abandon it, they would have stopped work a long time ago. And while it's probably not a huge seller, they probably make some decent money, a fair amount of it from people upgrading from GB. Not to mention that running Logic provides motivation for owning powerful mac hardware.

ryanw
Jul 1, 2011, 02:04 PM
Mr. Jobs THINKS the high-end editing market is not important to Apple because there are so few of them compared to those working small projects like weddings and events and you tube and corporate training video and the like. Steve is right about the numbers

Where he gets it wrong is that ..

(1) All these guys doing small projects want to move up the food chain and one day work on major motion pictures. So they want to use the same tools as the "big guys" so they can claim to have the required skills. They want to be able to say "I have been using the Industry Standard for many years" They know they will be laughed out of the interview it they claim to be an "iMovie Expert" and it looks like that same might happen to an "FCP X expert"

(2) Even those who are more realistic and even home users not working in the industry at all, when they decide what to buy that will ask "what do the pros use?" and they will buy that. Pretty much the same as when amateur photographer see all those white Canon SLR camera lenses on the sidelines of pro sports games and then decide to buy Canon themselves "becase that is what pros use." Dumb reasoning, but that's the way it works.

I think Apple has set them selves up to fail in the long run. They NEED to be seen as having Apple pro apps used by the top professionals. It's an image thing. What else does Apple have but "image". The only way to do that is to invite pros back into the software development process.

I said the exact same thing to a friend last week. A MAJORITY of those working on wedding videos and "prosumer" type projects all want to be eventually working in a major studio or network project. Saying they know the tools is a huge reason they do these small indie/cheap projects. They're going to suffer through whatever tools the major studios use so they can integrate. It's not always about "whats the best tool for the job", in this case it's about "what's the tools that gets the job done in the industry and I'll use that no matter how painful it is."

singlestick
Jul 1, 2011, 02:15 PM
And if you guys want a thoughtful discussion of FCP X I really suggest you listen to this week's The Talk Show (http://5by5.tv/talkshow/49). Yes, it is Gruber. No, he isn't completely sucking up to Apple so stop trolling. :p

Thanks for this reference. I will definitely take a look or listen. It was interesting to read the recent Daring Fireball column in which Gruber accurately detailed Apple's missteps with FCPX, but then tried to dance around the problems by suggesting that all would have been forgiven if Apple had just pitched the new release to high end consumers.

ryanw
Jul 1, 2011, 02:17 PM
Apple doesn't make it, a priori, it's wrong.
Simple logic for the simple minded.

I switched from Premiere on the PC to Final Cut Pro back in the day because Premiere crashed all the time and was super super slow. FCP supported a much better heightened ability to handle stuff on the same hardware. Also what drove me there was the built in FIREWIRE in the macs. Firewire was WAY better than USB for harddrives, and was necessary to transfer from my cameras into the computer.

THX1139
Jul 1, 2011, 02:18 PM
And once again!! People, you haven't been forced by Apple to switch from FCP7 to FCPX, right?!

Well, actually you kinda are. That is unless you want to get left in the dust as the now discontinued FCS continues to rust. And then what happens later when you need to install new seats to expand your business? This horse has been beaten to death, all you need to do is look around and read what's going on and what the issues are instead of posting trite comments.

THX1139
Jul 1, 2011, 02:24 PM
The next thing Adobe needs to do is to bring Premiere Pro Mac up to the level of its PC product...

Or, you could just buy a PC for your editing machine. With the way Adobe is migrating away from professional software, and it's obstinance in not being willing to provide standard hardware solutions (no bluRay or USB 3.0), there is less reason to stick with the Mac platform.

Gen
Jul 1, 2011, 02:26 PM
Yet, FCPX is only $299. It > Adobe or Avid
It does so much for so less that XML support is irrelevant at this point - sure it's needed, and we will get it, but right now FCPX wins.

(I've left FCP7 and love FCPX)

ppc_michael
Jul 1, 2011, 02:37 PM
Competition!

In my opinion, that Media Composer offer is a good deal. Avid is used in about 50% of the projects I deal with. This could be the bump they need to get back on top.

Unfortunately the Mac version always feels a little clunky to me. The Windows version flies, though.

bretm
Jul 1, 2011, 02:40 PM
Yet, FCPX is only $299. It > Adobe or Avid
It does so much for so less that XML support is irrelevant at this point - sure it's needed, and we will get it, but right now FCPX wins.

(I've left FCP7 and love FCPX)

I'd love to know who your clients are and how it's all working out.

Truffy
Jul 1, 2011, 02:49 PM
Back in 1999 Premiere was doing things FCP 7 still can not. I remember well using Premiere in my beige 233Mhz G3 and adding different kind of videos onto the timeline and they were rendered in real time and the transitions were animated, something that FCP 7 never did and FCP X is bragging about... 12 years later.
And then Adobe abandoned the Mac. And even now there's not feature parity. Adobe schmadobe.
Not to mention that running Logic provides motivation for owning powerful mac hardware.
Hmmm, only a little while ago, people were saying the same of FCP! ;)
Unfortunately the Mac version always feels a little clunky to me. The Windows version flies, though.
I guess it's the Mac version that most people would be interested in (unless you're happy to boot/work in Windows. The fact that the Mac version is clunky suggests that they're not so interested in the Mac market, and that this is just cheap opportunism on their part. For shame! :D

NAG
Jul 1, 2011, 02:52 PM
Back in 1999 Premiere was doing things FCP 7 still can not. I remember well using Premiere in my beige 233Mhz G3 and adding different kind of videos onto the timeline and they were rendered in real time and the transitions were animated, something that FCP 7 never did and FCP X is bragging about... 12 years later.

Yes, and the reason they had this ability was because they signed a deal with the Devil which required them to drop support for OS X several years later. Fact is Adobe ditched Mac users worse than this cold turkey FCP transition Apple is doing. Your feature check list doesn't address the problem being are you confident Adobe won't tell you to switch to a Windows machine again in the future? I know this is somewhat FUD'y but I really only intend to direct it at people who are making snap purchase decisions as a way to try to encourage them to think about what they need long term.

I remember switching to FCP because I had to. Consider that many software manufacturers where frustrated with Apple for several reasons, one of them the "Mhz myth" and all the softwares running very slow because it was one language on top the other and Apple was blaming "bad programming" on the developers side. I remember that well.

Care to explain your point? Using quotes and a dismissive tone doesn't really explain anything. All it does is tell us your general opinion, which while somewhat informative is mostly useless.

bretm
Jul 1, 2011, 02:59 PM
The point of waiting is to make sure you end up with the right tool for the job instead of blindly running over to Adobe because you can't go download FCP X now and instantly integrate it into your workflow, forgetting that they screwed over their Mac customers even harder when they were moving their apps to OS X than Apple's botched transition with FCP X.



Which is why they stopped updating OS X. Oh wait.

You have any evidence to support this claim about Apple? Plenty of evidence for the Adobe claim – UI changed to Windows centric, abandoned the Mac platform for the G5 era, Flash runs better on Windows and used to run much much better, etc...

Apple has continued to push forward with Mac technologies. Heck, your complaining about the new FCP X stuff is Apple pushing forward (for better or worse). Another example is Thunderbolt, you don't see that on an iOS device.

If you want to say something bad about Apple, say they're a think outside of the box company first, maintain the status quo second. That is exactly what is happening with FCP X. (Mind you, thinking outside the box doesn't automatically mean success, you can massively screw up doing that too.)

As a stockholder I love the way Apple is going. Not sure if the FCP X debacle is going to make them more money, less, or just be kinda meaningless. I think that in the future, this release of X will be lowered to the $79 price like Aperture, which is a fine product. It will essentially replace iMovie for anyone wanting to do real work. Very much like the iPhoto / Aperture relationship. EXACTLY like that relationship. That's what they want. That is pretty obvious. They don't really want to be in the high maintenance high end client market too terribly. But both Avid and Premiere have bungled their low end offerings so I think perhaps Apple thinks they'll win over some switchers with this. There are arguments both ways. It'll probably be a moot point in the short term. Great software to sell great hardware. They are a hardware company. They still sell hardware if I switch to Premiere or Avid.

Anyway, my point about waiting is that most of us using FCP for a living have been waiting. 2 years at least. In fact, FCP 7 was pretty much a band aid to buy them some time. At the moment my clients are bringing DSLR h264 video and XDCam EX. Both a pain in the FCP world due to transcoding. So, we're ready for a new app that can handle this stuff. Been ready for 2 years. So... Premiere can do it.... no, gonna wait and see what Apple is cookin. Avid can do it... wow, industry leader. Dropped price... no, I'll wait and see what Apple is up to. Then FCP X. Great. Can use our new media. Wait, what do we do for the color correction pass? And I'll need to send our OMFs to the audio guy for mixing... hey! WTH? Ok, Apple has an FAQ... leaving it up to 3rd parties (most likely to sell their wares on app store where apple takes it's 30%). There's no reason to wait longer. If you need something for professional use, you get the tools you need when you need them. Avid and Premiere are both good tools that do what we need. Why would I wait an hope FCP X grows up?

Apple is a hardware company. Mobile hardware to be precise if you qoute Steve a few years ago at a Keynote. They're making most of their money off iPads, iPhones and Laptops. They make operating systems to make their gadgets and laptops the best experience. They make great software to make them the best choice and complete their ecosystem. FCP X will further their position in the above regard.

the8thark
Jul 1, 2011, 03:20 PM
That is the least of the worries. I do not care if my new girlfriend is a bit overweight as long she is not a lazy gold digger.
Quoted for posterity. And to prove to everyone that *LTD*'s posts are not this strange.

charlituna
Jul 1, 2011, 03:24 PM
As some would say, nice strategy to drop the pro market and focus on the consumer, just make your pro customers go away by themselves :p

Apple should have wait till FCP X was more "complete"

The B/G-ing pros would still be at it. Because they would have to wait another year which clearly shows that Apple doesn't care about them, blah blah

True is, probably not a lot of genuine pros are the ones with the complaints. Because they either had the right expectations about this brand new software based on an understanding of Apple's practices plus the April preview, or because they switched a long time ago.

Now the prosumers who weren't paying attention and have been griping about why FCS cost $1000 and thought they were getting the same full package for $300, well they are probably the ones actually screaming for Jobs head, liver and Ubilos' balls.

Fact is, not everyone needs all the missing bells and whistles. Like the export to tape. My shop works on a dozen plus projects a month and we never export to tape. Pretty much only soaps, game shows, talk shows and sit coms are the only groups you'll still come across tape. We don't in any of those. So why should we pay extra for Apple to bake that into the software. Let those that need it, buy it from the folks holding the patents. and so on

PeterQVenkman
Jul 1, 2011, 03:24 PM
Nice ignorant rant, toolbox.

Nice name calling.

Have you read any of Apple's responses? They admit that yes, it is young, and yes, more features need to be added. They've stated that they're going to keep working on it and listed to users as to what features should be added. Multicam, Red support, etc are coming. FCPX is young and may have been released a bit too soon, but it'll mature.

They're actually refunding people via the App Store, something they have zero obligation to do.

Stop your ignorant kneejerking and actually read up on the issue.

John Gruber put it well:

I think Apple plans for Final Cut Pro X to grow from where it is today to eventually meet the needs of high-end pros. What this release shows is not that Apple doesn’t care about the pro market at all, but rather that they don’t care enough to prevent Apple from releasing a version that pros can’t yet use.

LethalWolfe
Jul 1, 2011, 03:24 PM
Back in 1999 Premiere was doing things FCP 7 still can not. I remember well using Premiere in my beige 233Mhz G3 and adding different kind of videos onto the timeline and they were rendered in real time and the transitions were animated, something that FCP 7 never did and FCP X is bragging about... 12 years later
I think you might be looking through a pair of rose colored glasses. In 1999 just playing back the DV codec was a chore for machines and companies were selling DV hardware accelerator cards.

I know this is somewhat FUD'y but I really only intend to direct it at people who are making snap purchase decisions as a way to try to encourage them to think about what they need long term.

I think you overestimate the number of people making snap decisions. Many people have been waiting for a significant improvement to the Final Cut Suite since FCP 6 launched in '07 (the update in '09 was truly anemic). The reaction to FCP X isn't really a knee jerk reaction as much as it's the last straw after watching Adobe and Avid make a lot of strides and waiting for Apple to respond. Well, FCP X is a poor response to many people so they are moving forward w/o it. People running businesses can't wait indefinitely for Apple to maybe produce a product that works for them.

I'm sure if Apple would've said they'd continue to sell and support the current Final Cut Suite until FCP X is ready for prime time they'd greatly reduce the number of people looking to Avid and/or Adobe for solutions.


Lethal

charlituna
Jul 1, 2011, 03:26 PM
I'm not a professional editor, but after listening to @lonelysandwich on The Talk Show, I feel that most editors aren't likely to just jump over to a new platform. I think apple with make FCP 7 available again, as they work on bringing FCPX up to speed.

I doubt they will re-release FCP 7. Their attitude will likely be that you were warned back in April about the new architecture, the new interface, etc. If you had done your research you would have easily found that MAS released software can't update preMAS so you would know between those clues that this was all new stuff with a learning curve etc. So you should have prepared yourself and bought more copies/seats if you were going to need them. So if you didn't, that's on you.


That is the least of the worries. I do not care if my new girlfriend is a bit overweight as long she is not a lazy gold digger.


I'm going to take the guess that you are either not a pro editor or you don't work with feature length stuff. Cause if you did then you would know that on a mac, non Cocoa stuff is slow as hell. Time is money in this game.

SpinThis!
Jul 1, 2011, 03:31 PM
Fact is Adobe ditched Mac users worse than this cold turkey FCP transition Apple is doing.
So what? Times change, companies change. The Apple of today, much like the Adobe of today, is a lot different than it was even 5 or 10 years ago. Photoshop and After Effects have always remained on the Mac.

The latest versions of Premiere, Photoshop, and After Effects are all 64-bit. You don't go through that amount of effort converting your software for a platform you don't care about. Adobe's vision for pros seems a lot brighter than Apple's vision. If you were a pro, who would you put your trust in—a company that would rather make iPads or a company who lives and dies with meeting the needs of professionals? Adobe certainly aren't perfect but the last couple versions of CS have been the best they've been in years.

So you should have prepared yourself and bought more copies/seats if you were going to need them. So if you didn't, that's on you.
Apple's NAB SuperMeet was only a technology preview; it was never a formal announcement. That's a big difference. Apple never announced any of their plans prior to putting FCP X up for sale in the App Store. So how could have editors known that FCP was going to be discontinued or that FCP X would be missing features needed by some? That's what's so baffling about this.

-=XX=-Nephilim
Jul 1, 2011, 03:41 PM
Well done Adobe!

Thumbs up :)

darkplanets
Jul 1, 2011, 03:41 PM
I see this being like every other Apple software release... ****** .0 and .1, and then .2+ starts to become very nice. It seems to be a common trend.

jaduffy108
Jul 1, 2011, 03:49 PM
But why would new users need Automatic Duck?

For new users wanting to move on from FCP Express and iMovie it's:

FCPX solution = $300 + optional Motion + Compressor = $400
Adobe: $1900 (you need to own FCP to get the crossgrade)

Yes you could now buy Adobe cheaper by buying FCP first (bit crazy though) so I'll give you you can buy Adobe for $1250, but it's still 3x the cost.

By the time prosumers master the FCPX process, Apple will have added more Pro level features to FCPX.


There really needs to a "stickie" or something cuz the same issues keep arising.

GKPM....the problems with FCPX are for editors working in multi-user, tv broadcast & film environments that involve working with audio houses, color correction, etc.. For solo freelance editors, etc...FCPX might be the cat's meow. For iMovie / FCP Express users...it will be awesome.

For me...I don't care if FCPX is $1.99...I can't get my job done with it, so it's worthless. Apple has screwed the pooch here. They blew up the bridge to the entire post production workflow. They aren't stupid. This isn't an accidental...senior oopsy moment. You can import iMovie projects, but not FCP7 projects! That says it all. Avid will no doubt regain much of the marketshare they had lost to FCP. I really don't think Apple cares. Look at their history with Shake, etc. Apple is moving away from the "pro" market. The money is in providing intuitive editing tools for the masses. That's even admirable. They just shouldn't have misled the broadcast / film industry into thinking they wanted to support FCP for their needs. Livelihoods are directly impacted by this...long term. Forgiveness will be tough to get.

izcóatl
Jul 1, 2011, 03:52 PM
There must be fifty ways to leave your software... :)

Durendal
Jul 1, 2011, 04:06 PM
Nice name calling.

John Gruber put it well:

Yeah, now explain how that supports the original post on Apple placing NO value on the concerns an opinions of the pro market. Re-read that quote. Please, do tell, because what Gruber is saying is that Apple is targeting the biggest market first (prosumer, largely) and working up to the pro market. It means they're starting out by appeasing the largest group of customers initially and then moving up. If they didn't care at all about the pros then they wouldn't even bother listening to them or working to implement the features that pros want. It would have been nice to see FCPX be more complete upon release, but this is what we get. Wait a few months and you'll see how completely wrong you are about Apple not caring about the pro market at all.

jaduffy108
Jul 1, 2011, 04:10 PM
I doubt they will re-release FCP 7. Their attitude will likely be that you were warned back in April about the new architecture, the new interface, etc. If you had done your research you would have easily found that MAS released software can't update preMAS so you would know between those clues that this was all new stuff with a learning curve etc. So you should have prepared yourself and bought more copies/seats if you were going to need them. So if you didn't, that's on you.

I'm going to take the guess that you are either not a pro editor or you don't work with feature length stuff. Cause if you did then you would know that on a mac, non Cocoa stuff is slow as hell. Time is money in this game.

Are you kidding me??? On me? Man...you guys just don't get it...AT ALL! Pro editors are not complaining about the new UI or a "learning curve" of new features. Geez! They're complaining because they can not get their job done with FCPX due to having zero ability to interface with the various stages of their workflow, having no upgrade path, can't import old projects and about 50 more things.

Do you really believe pro editors in broadcast TV, post supervisors for TV & major studio feature films, etc are going utterly ballistic about FCPX because we simply don't want to learn a new UI?? clueless.


No...it's YOU who obviously has no idea what you're talking about. FCPX simply does not work in "pro workflow" environments...PERIOD. This is not a debatable issue dude.

Please take the time to go David Pogue's blog and read the 15+ pages of comments...and learn what's involved in a "pro workflow".

Then you'll say.... "OHHHH...now I get it" :rolleyes:

charlituna
Jul 1, 2011, 04:12 PM
Apple shouldn't abandon the pros. They must remember that most of the Mac evangelist were pro users.

In the early days sure. But now, folks are coming in more because of their non techie neighbor, nail girl etc than they are cause of some techie pro they know.

Odd, then that Apple would try to appease professionals with promises of updates that would address complaints.


but they weren't really. These updates were likely always in the timeline. All Apple did was remind the users of this detail by way of saying 'hey we aren't ignoring this stuff'.


Apple has had a certain release path for years. This is no different than any of it. Hell remember that they released iOS 1 without cut and paste. For a smart phone that is as 'vital' as importing in projects made in a previous version


Many of the "features" that need to be added to FCPX will come from third parties.. at prices far higher than the current cost of FCPX. You cannot buy FCP based on cost...

Yes but they aren't all needed by everyone. Not everyone needs export to tape. So they won't get that. A new house might not have any FCP1-7 projects to import into FCPX so they won't need that, etc. So since they don't need them, they won't buy them.

I am going to watch with GREAT interest to see if Apple will by this fall offer what I describe as the "Advanced Professional Pack" that will add back the features of Final Cut Pro 7.0 to Final Cut Pro X, including the ability to work with Final Cut Pro 7.0 project files.

They have basically told folks to get over it on the 7 to X issue. According to them, the structures are so totally different it is impossible.

As for the rest, if it is released as a separate pack I won't be shocked if it is a pittance of money like $20. But I suspect that it won't be. Even if they were perhaps thinking that, I suspect it will all be baked into free point updates to make the whiners happy.


1) Post houses can no longer purchase new licenses for FCS3 (since it's been pulled off the shelf)

You do understand yes that a license != a disk. All you need for a license is a serial number. And no one has actually said that they tried to call Apple to get more serials and were rejected. So I"m not sure that has happened versus everyone making the same erroneous statement that you have to have a physical disk.

Maybe Apple will have an update soon that will allow support for all the third party add-ons from FCP7. Sort of like Rosette!

No need for an update. FCPX already supports plug-ins. So long as it is written correctly. Noise had their new versions out the next day.

Really? It doesn't seem that hard to understand. FCP7 is no longer for sale. There are no more upgrade cycles to it. It's not being maintained for even a minute longer.



there has been no need for an update at this point so it's a false claim to say that they won't being maintaining it. They said that FCP7 WILL work with Lion. If it turns out they need to update something to make that true, they will. Just like they still update many other old versions like Leopard



Apple got rid of Shake, tons of pros knew shake and owned shake and wanted to continue to use shake, but just got thrown away.


My shop owns Shake and still uses it. Sure it can be a little slow but it still works.

No matter how much better it is, the professional world needs options and a transition period.

Which is why your FCP7 didn't suddenly stop working. This is the transition period. No true pro shop is going to be using FCPX for anything other than perhaps cutting a trailer before 2012. And weren't planning to because of the UI change, regardless of missing features issues.

Disagree. Their statement earlier this week shows this. They obviously were under a development deadline and had to make cuts to hit their release date.

Actually it isn't obvious at all. They never gave a firm deadline so they could have waited as long as they wanted. They didn't because it is Apple's practice that the point zero release of any software is really the final field test stage. Anyone that has worked with them for more than a couple of years knows this.



(1) All these guys doing small projects want to move up the food chain and one day work on major motion pictures.



Really? You asked ALL of them and got the same answer. Doubt it, so your claim is potentially erroneous.



(2) Even those who are more realistic and even home users not working in the industry at all, when they decide what to buy that will ask "what do the pros use?" and they will buy that.



And now they can. In a version that won't break the bank etc. Or they just stick with iMovie because it is basically 'the same' as the more expensive pro stuff.

They NEED to be seen as having Apple pro apps used by the top professionals.


Uh, no they don't. They are in this to make money. Money comes from sales. Sales means volume and that's consumers and prosumers. They designed the iphone for consumers and the business sales of it have killed RIM. Businesses are flocking to the consumer focuses ipad in droves. FCPX is consumer/prosumer focused and yet don't be shocked if a lot of pros jump for it without a lot of sturm und drang thanks to those 3rd party plug-ins that everyone is smack talking.



So how could have editors known that FCP was going to be discontinued or that FCP X would be missing features needed by some? That's what's so baffling about this.

if you were paying attention of the past 5-10 years you wouldn't be baffled. Because Apple always does this with new software releases. Heck just a few months ago when they released ilife 11 they cut '09 the same day. You think Adobe didn't tell the retailers to send back all their copies of CS5.0 when 5.5 came out. Sure they did. It's just the nature of the game.

jaduffy108
Jul 1, 2011, 04:16 PM
There must be fifty ways to leave your software... :)

Tell that to the post production houses that invested hundreds of thousands of dollars to create a FCP workflow.

Now their investment abruptly has been EOL'd. Think these people will ever trust Apple again? Nope

the8thark
Jul 1, 2011, 04:19 PM
If you want to say something bad about Apple, say they're a think outside of the box company first, maintain the status quo second. That is exactly what is happening with FCP X. (Mind you, thinking outside the box doesn't automatically mean success, you can massively screw up doing that too.)
I agree 100% here. Apple is the company where "It's there way or the highway" is totally true. You can't half be with Apple. Either you follow their way 100% or you move to the competitor which in this case is Adobe or Avid.

It's funny how when there is a tiny little issue 1% of the total users make 95% of the total complaining noise. And the fact is 99% of the sales of FCPX will be to users happy with it. Mostly Prosumers I would guess. And they'll love it.

A million prosumer sales or 1000 professional sales? Well we know which one pays the bills for Apple. And even if you take the halo effect into account a million iMacs is more profits than 1000 Mac Pros. Apple is a business and realise the prosumer market is more money for them then the professional market is.

This is sad cause back in the day it was the creative professionals that kept the Mac platform alive. But unlike the competition they leave their deadweight behind to move forward. I am sure this time though it was just a deadline issue. A incomplete FCPX now or a complete FCPX later. They chose the first option. And I think rightfully so. They just underestimate how loud 1% of the total users can cry and whinge. Pretty loudly and enough to detract from an otherwise solid release.

For anyone other then top tier professionals FCPX is really good. The only major issue I see for most users is the lack of import from the old FCP. I don't get that though. Apple had classic for the OS X switch and Rosetta/Universal Binaries for the intel switch. But nothing for the FCPX switch. As much as I like FCPX (I know I'd actually give it 4/5 stars. Unlike most), the lack of import is a big oversight. Getting users to move on and forget the past worked well for Apple most times but this time it came around and bit them in the ass.

My advice to Apple would be to fix the bug FCPX issues quick smart. For the brand image. People associate Apple with "just working" and a lot of love. But all this FCPX hate (totally unjustified) will weaken the Apple brand as a whole.

Apple can not get people to grow up and stop whining over pointless stuff. But they can fix the issues in FCPX. And that's what they need to do.

jaduffy108
Jul 1, 2011, 04:20 PM
In the early days sure. But now, folks are coming in more because of their non techie neighbor, nail girl etc than they are cause of some techie pro they know.



but they weren't really. These updates were likely always in the timeline. All Apple did was remind the users of this detail by way of saying 'hey we aren't ignoring this stuff'.


Apple has had a certain release path for years. This is no different than any of it. Hell remember that they released iOS 1 without cut and paste. For a smart phone that is as 'vital' as importing in projects made in a previous version




Yes but they aren't all needed by everyone. Not everyone needs export to tape. So they won't get that. A new house might not have any FCP1-7 projects to import into FCPX so they won't need that, etc. So since they don't need them, they won't buy them.



They have basically told folks to get over it on the 7 to X issue. According to them, the structures are so totally different it is impossible.

As for the rest, if it is released as a separate pack I won't be shocked if it is a pittance of money like $20. But I suspect that it won't be. Even if they were perhaps thinking that, I suspect it will all be baked into free point updates to make the whiners happy.



You do understand yes that a license != a disk. All you need for a license is a serial number. And no one has actually said that they tried to call Apple to get more serials and were rejected. So I"m not sure that has happened versus everyone making the same erroneous statement that you have to have a physical disk.



No need for an update. FCPX already supports plug-ins. So long as it is written correctly. Noise had their new versions out the next day.



there has been no need for an update at this point so it's a false claim to say that they won't being maintaining it. They said that FCP7 WILL work with Lion. If it turns out they need to update something to make that true, they will. Just like they still update many other old versions like Leopard




My shop owns Shake and still uses it. Sure it can be a little slow but it still works.



Which is why your FCP7 didn't suddenly stop working. This is the transition period. No true pro shop is going to be using FCPX for anything other than perhaps cutting a trailer before 2012. And weren't planning to because of the UI change, regardless of missing features issues.



Actually it isn't obvious at all. They never gave a firm deadline so they could have waited as long as they wanted. They didn't because it is Apple's practice that the point zero release of any software is really the final field test stage. Anyone that has worked with them for more than a couple of years knows this.



Really? You asked ALL of them and got the same answer. Doubt it, so your claim is potentially erroneous.



And now they can. In a version that won't break the bank etc. Or they just stick with iMovie because it is basically 'the same' as the more expensive pro stuff.



Uh, no they don't. They are in this to make money. Money comes from sales. Sales means volume and that's consumers and prosumers. They designed the iphone for consumers and the business sales of it have killed RIM. Businesses are flocking to the consumer focuses ipad in droves. FCPX is consumer/prosumer focused and yet don't be shocked if a lot of pros jump for it without a lot of sturm und drang thanks to those 3rd party plug-ins that everyone is smack talking.




if you were paying attention of the past 5-10 years you wouldn't be baffled. Because Apple always does this with new software releases. Heck just a few months ago when they released ilife 11 they cut '09 the same day. You think Adobe didn't tell the retailers to send back all their copies of CS5.0 when 5.5 came out. Sure they did. It's just the nature of the game.


You really have no idea you're making a fool of yourself ....do you?

SpinThis!
Jul 1, 2011, 04:27 PM
if you were paying attention of the past 5-10 years you wouldn't be baffled. Because Apple always does this with new software releases. Heck just a few months ago when they released ilife 11 they cut '09 the same day. You think Adobe didn't tell the retailers to send back all their copies of CS5.0 when 5.5 came out. Sure they did. It's just the nature of the game.
What's your point? Except iLife '11 imports '09 projects. CS5.5 reads CS5 projects. And both packages include all the features of the previous releases. When CS5 went to 64-bit it didn't break anything else. So wouldn't a reasonable expectation be that FCP X reads FCP projects? If not, your logic is completely broken.

How quickly we forget that after iMovie '08 came out, it was just a horrible reaction from users they had to put iMovie '06 back up for download. Even David Pogue was mystified.

You really have no idea you're making a fool of yourself ....do you?
haha, do you really want him answering that?

THX1139
Jul 1, 2011, 04:43 PM
I doubt logic will even get updated. apple probably make more money selling garageband for ipad.

I pretty much agree with your assessment. And, Apples track record is proof. Take a look at how often Apple updates software related to their iToys and compare that to how often they issue updates for their professional line. Until FCX came out, when was the last time we saw a substantial update to Final Cut? Yeah... July of 2009 - 2 years ago! That's how long professional Final Cut Pro users have been waiting. No wonder they are pissed.

jaduffy108
Jul 1, 2011, 04:44 PM
haha, do you really want him answering that?


Probably not ;)

As is clear from my "vibe"... I'm really getting annoyed with people who marginalize what pro editors working in FCP environments are now facing.
Responses like "just keep using FCP7", etc or the nonsense charlituna is spewing...shockingly clueless.

I'm utterly clueless about a lot of things, but I hope I don't go around spouting off about stuff I have no idea what I'm talking about....too often :)

And when I do :) ... I can only hope I listen when someone comes along to point out my silliness.

THX1139
Jul 1, 2011, 04:54 PM
They need to address this in a meaningful way. Forget about the FAQ page or giving an interview here or there. Steve Jobs needs to have a press conference similar to the iPhone 4 Death Grip. It doesn't need to be as vast as inviting the broad newsmedia, but it needs to be as serious and impactful.

You make is sound like they didn't know that this would be a fiasco. This was all part of a long-term strategy. Steve Jobs is not going to get up and make some kind of "we blew it" announcement because in their eyes, nothing is wrong that an update won't take care of... or 3rd parties will supply if you really must have it. This new software is NOT geared towards typical professionals. Apple is clearly going after the weekend video editor and youtube type person. Looking ahead, practically every consumer device is going to have some type of video recording function, and Apple thinks that is where the money is. They are concentrating on getting those people to use FCX to edit their iPhone or DSLR footage so they can post it to social networks with ease. Better to have a couple million people paying $300, than to cater to the high-end crowd who have stringent and finicky requirements.

LethalWolfe
Jul 1, 2011, 04:57 PM
Until FCX came out, when was the last time we saw a substantial update to Final Cut? Yeah... July of 2009 - 2 years ago! That's how long professional Final Cut Pro users have been waiting. No wonder they are pissed.
The two year update cycle is par for the course, but I wouldn't even call the '09 update substantial. It was downright anemic. The last significant update to the Final Cut Suite was in '07, IMO.


Lethal

jaduffy108
Jul 1, 2011, 05:00 PM
I pretty much agree with your assessment. And, Apples track record is proof. Take a look at how often Apple updates software related to their iToys and compare that to how often they issue updates for their professional line. Until FCX came out, when was the last time we saw a substantial update to Final Cut? Yeah... July of 2009 - 2 years ago! That's how long professional Final Cut Pro users have been waiting. No wonder they are pissed.

It's really hard to express the degree to which Apple has screwed over those who embraced their format in the tv broadcast / film industry. "Pissed" really doesn't come close. If one takes the time to go to forums where many pro editors / post supervisors "hang"...creative cow, etc...it's obvious the backlash is going to be swift and massive.

But "massive" within our world is teeny, tiny compared to the enormous potential audience Apple has with FCPX for people creating content for the web and their mobile iOS devices. As I've said before, I really don't think Apple cares...which gives an added "charge" to our pissed-off-ness. :cool:

jaduffy108
Jul 1, 2011, 05:11 PM
You make is sound like they didn't know that this would be a fiasco. This was all part of a long-term strategy. Steve Jobs is not going to get up and make some kind of "we blew it" announcement because in their eyes, nothing is wrong that an update won't take care of... or 3rd parties will supply if you really must have it. This new software is NOT geared towards typical professionals. Apple is clearly going after the weekend video editor and youtube type person. Looking ahead, practically every consumer device is going to have some type of video recording function, and Apple thinks that is where the money is. They are concentrating on getting those people to use FCX to edit their iPhone or DSLR footage so they can post it to social networks with ease. Better to have a couple million people paying $300, than to cater to the high-end crowd who have stringent and finicky requirements.


I think you're spot on. But...it sure wasn't "ok" to mislead people / companies into investing millions of dollars into your product, have individuals build their resumes around your workflow...etc, etc, etc...all based on promises of long term support....and then EOL it with a shocking degree of callousness. That is deeply offensive.

jaduffy108
Jul 1, 2011, 05:12 PM
The two year update cycle is par for the course, but I wouldn't even call the '09 update substantial. It was downright anemic. The last significant update to the Final Cut Suite was in '07, IMO.


Lethal

I would agree.

KnightWRX
Jul 1, 2011, 05:16 PM
Sorry, I'm just a bit confused at this point. Wasn't Rosetta supposed to use Carbon libraries? And Lion would have drop those and that is the reason why FCPX has been rewritten in Cocoa and also take advantage of 64bit and GCD and such?

Carbon is a 32 bit API that is mostly source compatible with the older Mac frameworks found in Classic. It is available for both Intel and PPC. You can very much compile Carbon code straight to native Intel x86 machine code, and the Carbon x86 32 bit librairies are available on Lion.

Rosetta is a PPC emulator that requires a full PPC build of every Carbon/Cocoa/Quicktime/etc library on the system. It is not an API.

The only reason to rewrite your apps to Cocoa is to get 64 bit support, since Apple promised but never shipped Carbon 64 bit.

Durendal
Jul 1, 2011, 05:18 PM
Probably not ;)

As is clear from my "vibe"... I'm really getting annoyed with people who marginalize what pro editors working in FCP environments are now facing.
Responses like "just keep using FCP7", etc or the nonsense charlituna is spewing...shockingly clueless.

I'm utterly clueless about a lot of things, but I hope I don't go around spouting off about stuff I have no idea what I'm talking about....too often :)

And when I do :) ... I can only hope I listen when someone comes along to point out my silliness.
I don't think anyone is advocating the use of FCP7 until the end of time. It's more along the lines of staying with it for another few months if possible until FCPX gets some updates. If you need to upgrade now and FCPX doesn't cut the mustard then go for Adobe, Avid, etc.

jaduffy108
Jul 1, 2011, 05:31 PM
Yeah, now explain how that supports the original post on Apple placing NO value on the concerns an opinions of the pro market. Re-read that quote. Please, do tell, because what Gruber is saying is that Apple is targeting the biggest market first (prosumer, largely) and working up to the pro market. It means they're starting out by appeasing the largest group of customers initially and then moving up. If they didn't care at all about the pros then they wouldn't even bother listening to them or working to implement the features that pros want. It would have been nice to see FCPX be more complete upon release, but this is what we get. Wait a few months and you'll see how completely wrong you are about Apple not caring about the pro market at all.

Durendal...
Looking at FCPX, it's overwhelmingly obvious Apple did not listen to or even ask "pros" what we need. Apple removed many critical, MUST HAVE capabilities for pros. FCPX is a non-starter. Period. I will bet you the house & farm Apple doesn't "fix" this in a "few months". I sincerely hope I'm proven wrong but I don't think that's even possible. Plugins that significantly increase the complexity of our workflows is NOT a solution.

If Apple comes out with a timeline for replacing these must-have capabilities within the next 4-6 weeks, then they've got a shot of keeping FCP in broadcast tv / film workflows. If they don't, they're toast imo.

And again...I really don't think Apple cares. I think they know exactly what they've done...and that's why "we" are all the more angry. It's unthinkable that the Apple FCP team didn't realize the enormous importance of these capabilities. So I (and the rest of the tv broadcast / film world) need to simply accept we've been lied to...accept Apple screwed us...get over it and stop venting on forums like this... buy an AVID and start building a new skillset. And never trust Apple again.

mac9000
Jul 1, 2011, 05:57 PM
I've used Premier, and it's a piece of junk. It has a bad interface, lacks features, and is crashy.

mac9000
Jul 1, 2011, 05:58 PM
The two year update cycle is par for the course, but I wouldn't even call the '09 update substantial. It was downright anemic. The last significant update to the Final Cut Suite was in '07, IMO.


Lethal

I miss pro Apple :(
Anyway, how did you get away with your signature having a full line of punctuation?

jaduffy108
Jul 1, 2011, 06:05 PM
I've used Premier, and it's a piece of junk. It has a bad interface, lacks features, and is crashy.

I haven't tried Premiere since a doc I cut in India (2005). It sucked then but I hear it's gotten much better. You would know better than I.

If you work with tapeless formats and don't work in multi-user environments, FCPX will probably be a joy to use.

mac9000
Jul 1, 2011, 06:16 PM
I haven't tried Premiere since a doc I cut in India (2005). It sucked then but I hear it's gotten much better. You would know better than I.

If you work with tapeless formats and don't work in multi-user environments, FCPX will probably be a joy to use.

The Premier I used was CS3. I forget what year CS3 was...

PeterQVenkman
Jul 1, 2011, 06:16 PM
Yeah, now explain how that supports the original post on Apple placing NO value on the concerns an opinions of the pro market. Re-read that quote. Please, do tell, because what Gruber is saying is that Apple is targeting the biggest market first (prosumer, largely) and working up to the pro market. It means they're starting out by appeasing the largest group of customers initially and then moving up. If they didn't care at all about the pros then they wouldn't even bother listening to them or working to implement the features that pros want. It would have been nice to see FCPX be more complete upon release, but this is what we get. Wait a few months and you'll see how completely wrong you are about Apple not caring about the pro market at all.

Thanks, I understood what it meant when I posted it. I guess because of your general hostility you didn't see that I agree with Gruber, and from what it seems, I agree with you.

Don't let that stop you from sounding like a "toolbox", though. ;)

macmuchos
Jul 1, 2011, 06:20 PM
I use both products professionally. If Avid would fully support AppleProRes, I would now leave FCP behind.

Exactly. Avid needs to:

1. Implement native ProRes support
2. Allow us who have FCP to use our existing I/O hardware (aja LHi board in our case).

No way we're buying FCP X. You can bet we're re-auditioning Avid and Premiere (shoulda never left Avid 10 years ago)

dbates
Jul 1, 2011, 07:17 PM
I think one wildcard in all of this is Apple's reliance on third party providers to fill in some of the missing functionality of FCP X.

I'm a long time user of Avid, and when I had to cut a project on Final Cut Pro, one of the most pleasant surprises was the inter-app integration. If you needed some advanced sound work, just send your sequence over to Soundtrack Pro (and then just bring it back... easy). And, even though Compressor wasn't that easy to learn, it still benefited from its close integration with all of the other pro apps. Same with DVD Studio Pro.

One of Avid's big downfalls is (in my opinion) its reliance on third parties for things like DVD creation and compression. Sorensen Squeeze just wasn't that easy to master, and never worked right or worked easily for me. DVD creation was equally obtuse. We ended up just playing out the timeline and recording the DVD live. And even OMF movement to Pro Tools (which, of course, Avid owns) only worked more or less correctly in the last few years. Consolidating a sequence for correct OMF export in the past was just a nightmare. And doing this with all of the craziness and deadline pressure of network television just makes it worse.

My point in all of this is that Apple seems to be giving up one of its greatest strengths by relying on third parties to provide some of the core functionality that it used to provide natively.

Might be more of a bumpy road than anyone at Apple anticipated.

We'll see...

writestuffla
Jul 1, 2011, 07:40 PM
Their video card support is really poor. It is my tool of last resort. Yes, AE blows Motion away, but both Adobe and Avid are horribly overpriced and their slashing their prices still makes it cost prohibitive to the average indie filmmaker.

LethalWolfe
Jul 1, 2011, 07:45 PM
Exactly. Avid needs to:

1. Implement native ProRes support
2. Allow us who have FCP to use our existing I/O hardware (aja LHi board in our case).

Avid can work with ProRes if you have the read-only version of the codec installed (it might come w/QT 7 now, not sure). You can't export to ProRes though because Apple won't release the full version of the codec (only way to get it is to buy FCP).

Avid is also working on greater support for third party hardware from what I hear. Matrox MXO2 mini will get you output only and the AJA Io Express is full in/out support. I know you have the LHi but maybe that support will come.


Lethal

Leddy
Jul 1, 2011, 07:53 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8C148 Safari/6533.18.5)

I think being able to slash 50% off your original selling price really says something about just how much you (over)value your product.

This is great news for the many users looking to switch.

I think FCP X will soon be discounted. Pro users won't be buying it and it's too pricey for the average dabbler in video editing.

Sketchbookmedia
Jul 1, 2011, 08:25 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8H7 Safari/6533.18.5)

For me.. I won't be changing my workflow anytime soon! Whether to FCPx or avid.. I'll happily keep going with fcp7 for anouther couple of years.. Honestly too busy to relearn ANY new workflow.. and am not going to risk cash- flow. I'm not going to be changing what works out purely of spite. If I look back to when FCP was first released no pro users would touch it.. It wasn't till version 3&4 they started jumping on board.
I think Apple know the pro user better than we think, & know they are slow to adopt anyway.. We've seen it with OS9 - OSX & when FCP first came on the scene.. Even saw in pre press companies hold on to quark for years without even a hint of an update! (in that Case the cheaper less capable indesign slowly crept in, but it was atleast 3 years before industry adopted it) in that case all the young up and coming designers learnt indesign because they could afford it and quark was way out of reach.. I think something similar will happen here.. All the students with their DSLRs will grab it, learn it. And in a year or so when it's upto speed we'll all change to it.

I could be wrong & apple may have blown off the pro user.. But I believe they think longer term than that. I know I won't be changing anytime soon but I hope when I am FCPX is ready..

robeddie
Jul 1, 2011, 09:04 PM
It's really hard to express the degree to which Apple has screwed over those who embraced their format in the tv broadcast / film industry. "Pissed" really doesn't come close. If one takes the time to go to forums where many pro editors / post supervisors "hang"...creative cow, etc...it's obvious the backlash is going to be swift and massive.

But "massive" within our world is teeny, tiny compared to the enormous potential audience Apple has with FCPX for people creating content for the web and their mobile iOS devices. As I've said before, I really don't think Apple cares...which gives an added "charge" to our pissed-off-ness. :cool:

I'm not so sure. I think at $299, it's expensive enough to make many hobbyists just decide to stick with iMovie - especially with the negative publicity. Creating web and mobile content is just fine with iMovie.

Which leaves FCPx kind of in a no man's land: Not good enough for hi-end, but too expensive and no killer feature that makes the most others want to spend $300, when they have a perfectly fine alternative.

To bolster my point, note that the total number of reviews of FCPx has almost stalled. There were more than a thousand reviews within a few days of the release and now there's just a little over 14 hundred.

If the number of posted reviews is in any way indicative of the sales pace, since that initial burst, FCPx is not selling well at all.

Nostromo
Jul 1, 2011, 09:38 PM
This is a challenge to Apple and I'm curious how it will respond.

2jaded2care
Jul 1, 2011, 09:39 PM
You make is sound like they didn't know that this would be a fiasco. This was all part of a long-term strategy. Steve Jobs is not going to get up and make some kind of "we blew it" announcement because in their eyes, nothing is wrong that an update won't take care of... or 3rd parties will supply if you really must have it. This new software is NOT geared towards typical professionals. Apple is clearly going after the weekend video editor and youtube type person. Looking ahead, practically every consumer device is going to have some type of video recording function, and Apple thinks that is where the money is. They are concentrating on getting those people to use FCX to edit their iPhone or DSLR footage so they can post it to social networks with ease. Better to have a couple million people paying $300, than to cater to the high-end crowd who have stringent and finicky requirements.

So Apple's long-term strategy is to p*ss off its professional customer base? If that's the case, it worked brilliantly.

cheesymogul
Jul 2, 2011, 04:17 AM
Exactly, the only real issue is that you can't legally get more copies of FCP 7 if you need to expand. Apple should really address that issue and then probably everything would be just fine unless FCP X never gets new features.
Why would frustrated people have any qualms about "stretching" their FCP7 license, when Apple a) has screwed them over with their current product not being useable (yet) to bring money on the table and b) obviously isn't the least interested in selling the old product...

APPLE DOESN't CARE ABOUT FCP7 ANYMORE!
So they won't give a rat's behind on how many machine you'll install it.

Besides, who said the famous line "great artists steal"? ;)

I was in the same situation when upgrading to an Intel Mac shortly before FCS3 came out. Coming from a G4 I was still working with FCS1/FCP5.
My perfectly legal FCP5 Power Mac version acted buggy as hell on the new machine. Unfortunately at that time Apple did no longer sell the universal binary update required to make FCS1 Intel-compatible either.

Take a guess: Did I waste any money on the legally available, but soon to be up- and outdated FCS2, or did I get the universal binary fix via "alternative" sources to bridge the time until FCS3 was released?

chukronos
Jul 2, 2011, 09:24 AM
(2) Even those who are more realistic and even home users not working in the industry at all, when they decide what to buy that will ask "what do the pros use?" and they will buy that. Pretty much the same as when amateur photographer see all those white Canon SLR camera lenses on the sidelines of pro sports games and then decide to buy Canon themselves "becase that is what pros use." Dumb reasoning, but that's the way it works.

It is dumb reasoning, but it is the way it works. That was the reason I first bought PS. I had no clue how to use it, but the pros used it, so. . .

Now, I use it professionally (actually, the whole design premium suite). And that, is the way it is. If the pros aren't using it, then most prosumers won't use it either. Then the questions becomes, will the amateur be willing to pay a $300 premium to use FCPX over imovie? Especially, since it will be much more than what they actually need. Time will tell.

I completely understand where the pros are coming from on this issue. You have a product that still works. But, it is in dire need of an update so it will be competitive with other software already in the market. You get the update and your current product is EOL'd. But, the update, while innovative in design, is less useful than the current product, not backwards compatible, and still not as good as the competition's software.

Will FCPX be updated to what is currently available via other software companies? maybe. If I was a pro, the question moving forward is, is it worth the risk? There is a possibility that it will never be on par with other professional software.

milatchi
Jul 2, 2011, 10:11 AM
We all know Adobe and Avid are stupid and their programs stink, right everyone? Go Apple!
Apple! Apple! Apple! Apple! Apple! Apple! Apple!

Sirmausalot
Jul 2, 2011, 10:44 AM
I don't see much about Adobe Premier that makes me think it is any better than the old version of Final Cut Pro. I am not a power user, so maybe I am missing something?

Adobe Premiere: 64 Bit, integration with DVD and Blu-ray, strong 64 bit encoder, multi core support, native DSLR, tight integration with After Effects and Photoshop, and Audition and the list goes on.

Premiere CS 5.5 is everything Final Cut Pro 7 should have been and far beyond what Final Cut X can do in terms of power and collaborative tools.

I don't think that many people will jump ship on FCP. Many studios have workflow entrenched in Final Cut 7 and will stick with that. Also, it's still going to cost studios tons to switch. These discounts bring prices to what FCS 7 was, and when it comes time to upgrade you new system after you switch you'll be paying the full price to Avid or Adobe. That simply isn't an option for studios with lower budgets.

I jumped yesterday. The reason we are jumping so rapidly is that Final Cut Studio 3 was in need of a significant update over 2 years ago. Many of us were already working with outdated software (non-multicore, no native DSLR support etc) and were waiting for the upgrade.

Not only is the suite of programs killed (no update DVD Studio Pro, Soundtrack Pro, Color, etc). We needed this stuff in 64 bit, multi-core, enhanced features.

Final Cut X is never going to have real DVD authoring or a full on set of professional audio tools. The compression outputs look anemic as well. Those of us jumping ship NOW were waiting, and Apple didn't come through.

A professional is someone who makes a living with a particular tool. A hobbyist does not.

A professional has their work seen by millions of people. A hobbyist does not.

A professional often works with budgets of projects in excess of hundreds of thousands of dollars. A hobbyist does not.

A professional works with professional actors, sound designers, colorists. A hobbyist does not.

A professional can deliver broadcast specification tape, Blu-ray, downloadable media. A hobbyist does not.

Final Cut X is a hobbyists tool. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

We're not elitist whiners. We know our tools and Final Cut X does not have them nor does it appear that it will ultimately have them. Adobe and Avid have the tools we need today, and are committed to them in the future. Looking back, Apple his killed off features it assumes we don't need and continues to do so.

jaw04005
Jul 2, 2011, 11:14 AM
So, I went to the Adobe Store to check out this discount.

Full version of Production Premium is $1699
Full version with FCP Discount is $849.50 (50 percent off)

Sounds like a great deal, right? Except any pro video editor will likely own a copy of Creative Suite (1, 2 or 3) anyway. So, what's the price for CS users that want to use the FCP discount?

Upgrade version of Production Premium from CS3 Design Premium is $949
Upgrade version of Production Premium from CS3 Design Premium with the FCP discount is $849 (~11 percent off Adobe retail price)

Upgrade version of Production Premium from CS3 at Amazon.com? $799 (~16% off Adobe retail price)

Not much of a discount unless you've never owned CS before, but you wouldn't know that from all the tech Web sites and blogs covering this "story."

Marketing at its finest.

macnews
Jul 2, 2011, 01:22 PM
Apple has hurt their image with pro editors and has a PR problem with new or hobby editors due to the back lash from the pro editors.

That being said, I think both sides are being a bit over the top. I have done pro editing in the past (new job now so have moved on but still work and know pro editors) so I'm not speaking out my a@#!

From the pro side, it is not like FCP7 stopped working. Yes, it would be nice to have an update. Yes, there are problems but if FCP8 came out and didn't fix those problems would you still move to Adobe or Avid? Maybe, maybe not. But no one was "tricked" or "mislead" - this is software and at some point you made the decision to choose FCP over Adobe or Avid. They have no promise to you either and certainly no guarantee they will go on forever.

Apple really messed up by not communicating and working with an audience that helps drive consumer sales. Even if I'm wrong about the consumer sales, it still doesn't help to have such negative press out there for such a small part of your revenue when in a few months you might be launching new hardware and OS software. What is really so difficult to imagine is the fix wouldn't be too difficult to implement. Fix a few of the bugs in FCP7, offer it as an update say FCP7.9 or whatever and KEEP SELLING FCP for the full price.

The real issue here is the film industry is changing with more digital solutions. FCPX DOES address those issues much more than Adobe or Avid currently do from what I hear from other editors based on what they see so far. The problem is they just can't abandon many of the tools they need to sell their services OR that saves them many hours. In the long run, FCPX could do all this but not right now and difficult to imagine it will be able to do all of that in a year but will have to see if Apple is serious about more frequent updates.

There is blood in the water, and no matter how good or bad FCPX is or if editors are over re-acting (whether true or false), these moves by Adobe and Avid are presenting problems for Apple.

Nostromo
Jul 2, 2011, 02:48 PM
So, I went to the Adobe Store to check out this discount.

Full version of Production Premium is $1699
Full version with FCP Discount is $849.50 (50 percent off)



Which means: anybody who wants to buy Adobe Production Premium should buy Final Cut Pro X first ($299) to save some money.

Which might increase the business for Final Cut Pro X... ;)

AppleScruff1
Jul 2, 2011, 02:52 PM
So, I went to the Adobe Store to check out this discount.

Full version of Production Premium is $1699
Full version with FCP Discount is $849.50 (50 percent off)

Sounds like a great deal, right? Except any pro video editor will likely own a copy of Creative Suite (1, 2 or 3) anyway. So, what's the price for CS users that want to use the FCP discount?

Upgrade version of Production Premium from CS3 Design Premium is $949
Upgrade version of Production Premium from CS3 Design Premium with the FCP discount is $849 (~11 percent off Adobe retail price)

Upgrade version of Production Premium from CS3 at Amazon.com? $799 (~16% off Adobe retail price)

Not much of a discount unless you've never owned CS before, but you wouldn't know that from all the tech Web sites and blogs covering this "story."

Marketing at its finest.

Actually, Apple is marketing at its finest.

anim8or
Jul 2, 2011, 02:53 PM
Which means: anybody who wants to buy Adobe Production Premium should buy Final Cut Pro X first ($299) to save some money.

Which might increase the business for Final Cut Pro X... ;)

You don't have to own FCP to actually get the discount.... i have read through all the Ts&Cs and see no mention of requiring to own FCP or provide proof/serial numbers.

All that needs to be done is enter the 'SWITCH' discount code online or ask when you are calling the store or visiting one.

Correct me if I am wrong...

LethalWolfe
Jul 2, 2011, 03:11 PM
The real issue here is the film industry is changing with more digital solutions. FCPX DOES address those issues much more than Adobe or Avid currently do from what I hear from other editors based on what they see so far. The problem is they just can't abandon many of the tools they need to sell their services OR that saves them many hours.
This is just speaking in generalities but Apple is playing catch up in terms of handling tapeless workflows and I don't think FCP X surpasses what Adobe and Avid already have. The background transcoding in FCP X is obviously cool, but losing support for image sequences, RED and ARRI RAW is not, for example. Will those things come back in updates? I assume so. When those updates will happen is anyone's guess though. Like much of the rest of the App it seems like for every cool thing added Apple tossed out something tried and true. I'm not sure why Apple chose to toss the baby out w/the bath water when Adobe and Avid have shown that you can adapt to new workflows w/o blowing up old ones. Time will tell, I guess.

Many editors have been waiting years to upgrade and when Apple finally showed its hand w/FCP X those editors decided that Adobe or Avid might have better solutions. Of course, like many have said, FCP 7 still works just as good as it did before FCP X came out, but what looms over many people's heads is how long do I run my business around dead software before moving on? Epically, like you said, at a time when things are changing rapidly. For example, all the colorists I know that were based around Apple Color have started moving rapidly over to DaVinci Resolve. Many of them were interested in Resolve anyway, but the killing of Color significantly accelerated the migration.


Lethal

iphonepiephone
Jul 2, 2011, 06:29 PM
Goshy, these FCPX moaner threads don't half go onnnnn... and attract some silly peoples... :rolleyes:

Please, when will it pass over? How dull, and recycled...

[EDIT]

No doubt all these self-professed "Pro Editors" gave my post a -3 rating! ^_^

It appears that if you wear sandals, live in California and have a grey beard and designer shirts, and are around 45-60, you consider yourself a "Pro Editor", and take life way too seriously, esp on here.

MovieCutter
Jul 2, 2011, 07:46 PM
This is just speaking in generalities but Apple is playing catch up in terms of handling tapeless workflows and I don't think FCP X surpasses what Adobe and Avid already have. The background transcoding in FCP X is obviously cool, but losing support for image sequences, RED and ARRI RAW is not, for example. Will those things come back in updates? I assume so. When those updates will happen is anyone's guess though. Like much of the rest of the App it seems like for every cool thing added Apple tossed out something tried and true. I'm not sure why Apple chose to toss the baby out w/the bath water when Adobe and Avid have shown that you can adapt to new workflows w/o blowing up old ones. Time will tell, I guess.

Many editors have been waiting years to upgrade and when Apple finally showed its hand w/FCP X those editors decided that Adobe or Avid might have better solutions. Of course, like many have said, FCP 7 still works just as good as it did before FCP X came out, but what looms over many people's heads is how long do I run my business around dead software before moving on? Epically, like you said, at a time when things are changing rapidly. For example, all the colorists I know that were based around Apple Color have started moving rapidly over to DaVinci Resolve. Many of them were interested in Resolve anyway, but the killing of Color significantly accelerated the migration.


Lethal

This is exactly what I'm dealing with.

captain kaos
Jul 2, 2011, 09:42 PM
Brilliant!

When you price FCX plus Automatic duck together (which you need to to get at least near, but not totally, to Avid functionality) you're pretty much at the same price as the new Avid price.

They will get FCX users from this, as there has always been editors on FCP that sit on the fence with the Avid/FCP argument.

LethalWolfe
Jul 3, 2011, 01:30 AM
Brilliant!

When you price FCX plus Automatic duck together (which you need to to get at least near, but not totally, to Avid functionality) you're pretty much at the same price as the new Avid price.

They will get FCX users from this, as there has always been editors on FCP that sit on the fence with the Avid/FCP argument.
I hope this is sarcasm.


Lethal

clank72
Jul 3, 2011, 02:13 AM
I've been here before. Just like Logic, many users never upgraded to version 8. So you are stuck with the old version forever, like FCPX.

I think the imovie technology is fantastic, specially all the real-time effect etc, etc. However please keep it pro and cut the candy. Consumer market makes more doe for apple.

..."Hey, now everyone can be a pro"... But it doesn't work that way for real?

Apple is a software company so they should still make software. But for anything serious I've always used another brand for that such as Adobe or other. I've always found FCP and motion very annoying and limited; all thrills and no steak, no room to grow.

But that's just me. And now with that said...

Possibly the only way to implement this new imovie techno was to revap FCP completely. In the process... unfortunately... eliminate the ability to load projects made with the previous version. Mostly due to the fact of the different workflow and the way you would use this new FCPX.

Apple's response: "Well, it will be hard at first but they will get used to it"....." They can finish their old projects before upgrading"... "FCPX is really a better, faster and practical way of working"...

They're probably right.

Problem: Too many users are used to the "old way" which makes it hard for companies to be innovative with new versions. I admit that FCP did need a face lift, which hasn't happned in years, but this program should of never been bought by Apple years ago.

We need serious tools. Let the "pros" buy fast machines for real-time editing, let them worry about that stuff, just add better features and PLEASE make the FCP interface look better.

iLife should be totally different then "pro" tools. They shouldn't even remotely look the same. Leave the iLife style like it is. Now keep "Pro Apps" pro. An iLife user should be scared to death if they see a pro app. If that happens we are on the right track.

But it's already done.

wacommania
Jul 3, 2011, 02:39 AM
I wanted to give FCPX some time before judging.
Because my first impression was not good.

I am not a iMovie-fan (far from it): so you can kinda guess where this is going.

FCPX is pretty fast for a quick (&dirty) edit. It does not feel as a Pro package but as a soccer mom app. I don't have the "feel" of being in control of the effects and in-out point etc etc.

A year ago I already switched from FCExpress to CS5.
My reason at that time: I was doubting the commitment of Apple to FCP product. There were stories about FCP staff being fired and moved to iPad.

Now that FCPX is out... I am starting to doubt Apple - as a whole. They used to make stable computers - but now they crash. They used say " think different", but there is only one train of thought allowed: apple, itunes, a limited set of fileformats (mov mostly). You are not allowed to be and think different anymore. Apple has become the very corporation they set out to fight. They used to spark creativity - but now they have been creative for you.
If they would make a kitchen, the Apple kitchen would only allow you to make some preset meals.

If it is true that Apple is a 100% consumer focused firm now... when will they realize that soccer moms don't need a fast computer for their simple mailing and iphoto-ing. If apple continues on this road... where will it end?

Does anyone dares to by Logic? Tomorrow they might discontinue it.

This is the problem for me.
Can I stick with Apple?
FCPX is buggie. Is a downgrade. Should have been called FCExpress+. It can't export really well. It doesn't save my projects very well.
In it's rise to the top Apple did something really well. But not anymore. They are perfectly willing to release substandard & buggie products.
A lot of marketing gurus name Apple as The example for its commitment to the core vision: challenging the status quo and making leaps forward.

Apple is now in an identity crisis.

I think it is Apple's philosophy that people cannot handle files. Everything is automated and hidden. But i want to name the folders myself, and decide where to put my multi layer photoshop files (which fcpx cant handle), my clips, my audio and where i want to save the .fcpp. All of that: not Allowed anymore.
This "hiding" of files and folders has been the reason for me not to use iphoto. Because it makes it really difficult for me to access my raw photos.

Do you want to switch to Adobe or Avid: this is the moment. I would say: go for it. Perhaps you might even need to switch from mac to pc entirely. Let's not hope so.

robeddie
Jul 3, 2011, 04:41 AM
I wanted to give FCPX some time before judging.
Because my first impression was not good.

I am not a iMovie-fan (far from it): so you can kinda guess where this is going.

FCPX is pretty fast for a quick (&dirty) edit. It does not feel as a Pro package but as a soccer mom app. I don't have the "feel" of being in control of the effects and in-out point etc etc.

A year ago I already switched from FCExpress to CS5.
My reason at that time: I was doubting the commitment of Apple to FCP product. There were stories about FCP staff being fired and moved to iPad.

Now that FCPX is out... I am starting to doubt Apple - as a whole. They used to make stable computers - but now they crash. They used say " think different", but there is only one train of thought allowed: apple, itunes, a limited set of fileformats (mov mostly). You are not allowed to be and think different anymore. Apple has become the very corporation they set out to fight. They used to spark creativity - but now they have been creative for you.
If they would make a kitchen, the Apple kitchen would only allow you to make some preset meals.
(more...)

.

Well said. As someone said in one of these posts ... Apple's 'walled garden' is starting to look more and more like a prison.

They want non-removable batteries and inaccessible hard drives in their computers (even though with a fair amount of effort, I was able to upgrade my iMac hard drive).

Now ... it seems they're big push is going to be making the app store the only place you can get software.

I bought a macbook air 11" because I don't want to be 'walled' in by the ipad. But it does seem that Apple is trying to edge their computers slowly to the point where they're as 'walled in' as the ios devices.

I HATE, HATE, HATE Windows, and still could never imagine switching, but this direction Apple is going is starting to really bother me.

captain kaos
Jul 3, 2011, 04:46 AM
I hope this is sarcasm.


Lethal

Erm, actually no, it isn't. Whats your point?!

robeddie
Jul 3, 2011, 04:51 AM
Adobe Premiere: 64 Bit, integration with DVD and Blu-ray, strong 64 bit encoder, multi core support, native DSLR, tight integration with After Effects and Photoshop, and Audition and the list goes on.

Premiere CS 5.5 is everything Final Cut Pro 7 should have been and far beyond what Final Cut X can do in terms of power and collaborative tools.

.

Agreed.

Me and the 3 editors I work with booted up the new Premiere last weekend and starting playing with it.

It wasn't long before we all came to that exact realization: That Premiere IS the FCPx we were hoping for.

The bombshell discovery was that not only does Premiere have FCP7 keyboard shortcuts build in as an option, but that is can also import FCP7 edl's and files.

We're totally sold.

LethalWolfe
Jul 3, 2011, 10:09 AM
Erm, actually no, it isn't. Whats your point?!

My point is that the Automatic Duck plugin for FCP X only gives you the ability to export OMFs and AAFs. FCP X needs a whole lot more help than that to get "near Avid functionality". Or near Premiere functionality. Or near FCP 7 functionality.


Lethal

ctakim
Jul 3, 2011, 10:30 AM
Agreed.

Me and the 3 editors I work with booted up the new Premiere last weekend and starting playing with it.

It wasn't long before we all came to that exact realization: That Premiere IS the FCPx we were hoping for.

The bombshell discovery was that not only does Premiere have FCP7 keyboard shortcuts build in as an option, but that is can also import FCP7 edl's and files.

We're totally sold.

Well Apple really screwed the pooch in how they handled this. And Adobe and Avid are smart to try and capitalize on this disruptive change. But the question I have for the professionals here is how will these packages compare in 3 years? Will the coding changes made in FCPX now allow for an amazing tool in 3 years? Are Adobe and Avid in for a world of hurt trying to implement radical technological changes incrementally? Or is the abrupt transition by Apple just too painful a transition?

I for one don't think Apple intends to walk away from the the professional market for the larger prosumer one. My thoughts have been stated in the post below. But only time will tell if Apple's gamble will pay off in the longer run.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1177352#post12839094

jakey8
Jul 3, 2011, 02:51 PM
Exactly. Avid needs to:

1. Implement native ProRes support
2. Allow us who have FCP to use our existing I/O hardware (aja LHi board in our case).

No way we're buying FCP X. You can bet we're re-auditioning Avid and Premiere (shoulda never left Avid 10 years ago)

Um... Avid has supported ProRes (at least on the Mac platform) for some time now. Ever since the release of version 5.
Avid supports nearly any format that can be played in QuickTime. With real-time playback and effects depending on the speed of your drive and power of your machine. Yes, I'm an Avid user. Have been since my company bought an EX3 and 7D. Files playback natively from both devices in MediaComposer

captain kaos
Jul 3, 2011, 07:58 PM
My point is that the Automatic Duck plugin for FCP X only gives you the ability to export OMFs and AAFs. FCP X needs a whole lot more help than that to get "near Avid functionality". Or near Premiere functionality. Or near FCP 7 functionality.


Lethal

I agree! I was meaning the move by Avid is good.I totally agree the combo of FCX and AD which is around the new lower Avid price still is below in spec compared to Avid.

LethalWolfe
Jul 3, 2011, 08:40 PM
I agree! I was meaning the move by Avid is good.I totally agree the combo of FCX and AD which is around the new lower Avid price still is below in spec compared to Avid.
Ah! I'm with you now. I knew I was misreading that post.:o


Lethal

B. Hunter
Jul 3, 2011, 09:23 PM
Come on!!!
As a FCE user I could even see this coming. What makes people think FCPX will become the "pro" app of choice in the future, all because Apple says they are listening? The past two years have shown that Apple does not care with their piecemeal updates and such, not only to FCS but other programs.

I'm out in the cold as well. FCE is discontinued. So what choices do I have? I will continue to use the latest version until it no longer serves its purpose. I also have Adobe P. Elements to play around with. Don't care for iMovie 11' at all.

Mike Nassour
Jul 3, 2011, 10:42 PM
And once again!! People, you haven't been forced by Apple to switch from FCP7 to FCPX, right?!


Not yet....but it will.

Soura2112
Jul 3, 2011, 11:53 PM
Adobe Premiere: 64 Bit, integration with DVD and Blu-ray, strong 64 bit encoder, multi core support, native DSLR, tight integration with After Effects and Photoshop, and Audition and the list goes on.

Premiere CS 5.5 is everything Final Cut Pro 7 should have been and far beyond what Final Cut X can do in terms of power and collaborative tools.



I jumped yesterday. The reason we are jumping so rapidly is that Final Cut Studio 3 was in need of a significant update over 2 years ago. Many of us were already working with outdated software (non-multicore, no native DSLR support etc) and were waiting for the upgrade.

Not only is the suite of programs killed (no update DVD Studio Pro, Soundtrack Pro, Color, etc). We needed this stuff in 64 bit, multi-core, enhanced features.

Final Cut X is never going to have real DVD authoring or a full on set of professional audio tools. The compression outputs look anemic as well. Those of us jumping ship NOW were waiting, and Apple didn't come through.

A professional is someone who makes a living with a particular tool. A hobbyist does not.

A professional has their work seen by millions of people. A hobbyist does not.

A professional often works with budgets of projects in excess of hundreds of thousands of dollars. A hobbyist does not.

A professional works with professional actors, sound designers, colorists. A hobbyist does not.

A professional can deliver broadcast specification tape, Blu-ray, downloadable media. A hobbyist does not.

Final Cut X is a hobbyists tool. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

We're not elitist whiners. We know our tools and Final Cut X does not have them nor does it appear that it will ultimately have them. Adobe and Avid have the tools we need today, and are committed to them in the future. Looking back, Apple his killed off features it assumes we don't need and continues to do so.

Yes MANY pros work with actors, light crews, etc. Though I consider myself a pro, except I do most of my work as a videographer/editor taking 3-6 hrs of footage and make music videos. Plus many other jobs. For instance I'm working on a yacht at the moment, I'm the only person, my business. I enjoy working solo. Though one day I hope to also work in a video production company for a more realiable pay checck. IMO a pro gets paid, that simple, of course everyone has a niche.
I hope to get the adobe deal. I do not own many adobe products so a great deal for me.
Also IMO I believe apple is embarrassed with FCX and upgrades will be coming out. Apple is still known as "the graphics computer", I talk to a lot of business people and they still dismiss Apple computers, obviously they know iPhones and iPads. FCX may not be up to par for awhile, I just think it may come to pride...my 2 cents anyway....and my wish.

Good luck to everyone.