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MacRumors
Jul 1, 2011, 03:35 PM
http://cdn.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/07/01/os-x-lion-allows-running-multiple-copies-on-the-same-machine-virtualization/)


http://cdn.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/07/virtu.jpg


For the first time, Apple is allowing owners of OS X (client version) to run multiple virtual copies on the same machine. Previously, Apple extended this ability to Mac OS X Server only. Running separate instances of Mac OS X should be possible under virtualization solutions such as VMware Fusion (http://www.vmware.com/) and Parallels (http://www.parallels.com/). This functionality allows you to deploy different sandboxed installations of OS X, typically for enterprise purposes. As reported in 2007 (http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/139184/apple_allows_mac_os_x_server_virtualization.html), Apple first extended this capability in Mac OS X Server 10.5:[The 2007 Mac OS X 10.5 Server EULA] permits OS X Server to run in a virtual machine (VM) as long as each VM is stocked with a different license and the physical system is Apple-made. The new rules don't apply to the client edition of Apple's operating system, which is still barred from being virtualized.The Golden Master version (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/07/01/os-x-lion-golden-master-seeded-to-developers/) of OS X Lion (10.7) just released to developers includes the final end-user licensing agreement (EULA) which reveals that users can run up to two additional instances of OS X Lion on their same machine without a need for extra licenses. From the 10.7 EULA:(iii) to install, use and run up to two (2) additional copies or instances of the Apple Software within virtual operating system environments on each Mac Computer you own or control that is already running the Apple Software.The shift in policy likely reflects the blurred distinction between OS X Server and OS X Client starting with Lion. OS X Server will be sold as an App Store add-on pack for OS X Lion.

Article Link: OS X Lion Allows Running Multiple Copies on the Same Machine (Virtualization) (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/07/01/os-x-lion-allows-running-multiple-copies-on-the-same-machine-virtualization/)



markfc
Jul 1, 2011, 03:38 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Sweet, vmware workstation hack and I'll be happy!

diamond.g
Jul 1, 2011, 03:39 PM
Well then. I wonder why they chose two as the limit.

balamw
Jul 1, 2011, 03:40 PM
I hope this opens the door to virtualizing OS X when running under a Boot Camped Windows.

B

ghostlyorb
Jul 1, 2011, 03:43 PM
I hope this opens the door to virtualizing OS X when running under a Boot Camped Windows.

B

I would be really happy if I could do that. I would be able to run church programs (such as EasyWorship) in Boot Camp then still have access to Mac.. and then if you could use virtualization to your current mac partition.. that would be cool too.. but I doubt it.

wordoflife
Jul 1, 2011, 03:44 PM
Is that ... tiger? :eek: haha

James Enright
Jul 1, 2011, 03:45 PM
Can some one please tell me the point/use of this feature:confused: (I probably sound very blond asking this)

pechspilz
Jul 1, 2011, 03:45 PM
Was about time!

Eric5h5
Jul 1, 2011, 03:45 PM
I would be really happy if I could do that. I would be able to run church programs (such as EasyWorship) in Boot Camp then still have access to Mac..

Sounds like you should be using Parallels or Fusion, not Boot Camp.

--Eric

diamond.g
Jul 1, 2011, 03:46 PM
I would be really happy if I could do that. I would be able to run church programs (such as EasyWorship) in Boot Camp then still have access to Mac.. and then if you could use virtualization to your current mac partition.. that would be cool too.. but I doubt it.

I don't understand why they just wont make a Mac version of EasyWorship. It feels like every time I am at church they have to reboot their computers due to that app.

PlutoPrime
Jul 1, 2011, 03:49 PM
I don't understand why they just wont make a Mac version of EasyWorship. It feels like every time I am at church they have to reboot their computers due to that app.

All it takes is prayer and faith like every advance and gift in our lives. If we all close our eyes and think it, then the lines of codes will cometh together.

lhotka
Jul 1, 2011, 03:51 PM
But can we run virtualized 10.6, so that we have backward compatibility for old apps.

ChristianJapan
Jul 1, 2011, 03:51 PM
Can some one please tell me the point/use of this feature:confused: (I probably sound very blond asking this)

- you can try software without impacting your main installation
- you can try different config without impacting your main installation
- nice for software development to have an independent virtual system you can restore by copying just the image with the VM
...

for many casual user its not needed and only fancy; not sure if I will use it regularly but for sure will give it a try.

grantwood
Jul 1, 2011, 03:52 PM
If you are running Lion Client, does the EULA allow you to virtualize Snow Leopard Client, or just Lion Client/Server?

peterson40
Jul 1, 2011, 03:52 PM
Why in the world would you still be using EasyWorship when you have a mac and can run ProPresenter?

I would be really happy if I could do that. I would be able to run church programs (such as EasyWorship) in Boot Camp then still have access to Mac.. and then if you could use virtualization to your current mac partition.. that would be cool too.. but I doubt it.

longofest
Jul 1, 2011, 03:53 PM
Okay. It's not going to take off in the enterprise unless they allow virtualized copies to run on non-apple hardware.

YoGramMamma
Jul 1, 2011, 03:55 PM
Can some one please tell me the point/use of this feature:confused: (I probably sound very blond asking this)

I can't think of a whole lot of reasons, but I can think of a few. One of which is the ability to run programs that don't upgrade their support for new OSes very quickly. Like protools. Everyone I know who uses protools on a regular basis has to wait months, sometimes upwards of 6 months before digidesign updates the protools app to work perfectly in a new os. This goes for minor dot releases too. So if you do other work on your computer than use that one app (or if apple provides a fix for some driver that affects your machine and would fix an issue), you're stuck with the old until the one app you need finally gets updated. Now, users could run lion, and install snow leopard in a VM and run their apps which don't work on lion yet and get all the new features of lion and still have their apps work.

Also for developers to check their software on different osx variations without having to have multiple boot drives or multiple computers.

phalseHUD
Jul 1, 2011, 03:57 PM
At least I know all about worship software now...

seek3r
Jul 1, 2011, 03:57 PM
Why in the world would you still be using EasyWorship when you have a mac and can run ProPresenter?

Hey hey guys, no holy wars over software in the forums, yah? :p

James Enright
Jul 1, 2011, 04:00 PM
- you can try software without impacting your main installation
- you can try different config without impacting your main installation
- nice for software development to have an independent virtual system you can restore by copying just the image with the VM
...

for many casual user its not needed and only fancy; not sure if I will use it regularly but for sure will give it a try.

Thanks for that, I didn't realize it would be a mainly developer thing.

McGiord
Jul 1, 2011, 04:07 PM
If you are running Lion Client, does the EULA allow you to virtualize Snow Leopard Client, or just Lion Client/Server?

I have the same question, also for previous Mac OS X versions?
Rosetta being also one of the main usages for this.

Can VirtualBox be used also?

jacobo007
Jul 1, 2011, 04:09 PM
worship software?.. really?

KPOM
Jul 1, 2011, 04:12 PM
But can we run virtualized 10.6, so that we have backward compatibility for old apps.

Exactly. Since they are pushing Rosetta off to the side, this would enable people to run PowerPC applications like Quicken 2007.

zweigand
Jul 1, 2011, 04:12 PM
But can we run virtualized 10.6, so that we have backward compatibility for old apps.

Exactly. If this were the case, we could actually update to lion at my workplace. If not, we will be stuck at snow leopard for the foreseeable future.

typecase
Jul 1, 2011, 04:16 PM
This seems like it continues to erode the importance of Mac OS X as time goes on as iOS becomes more important to Apple's bottom line. It seems like it's just a commodity piece of software now. I can see Windows users virtualizing OS X, essentially removing the core of what it means to "have a Mac." At least with a Hackintosh, you really worked hard to get the OS to work on non-Apple hardware. Now it seems to easy. :o

ValSalva
Jul 1, 2011, 04:19 PM
This is great news. Allows for system tweaking in a virtual OS X before trying on the main system.

MikhailT
Jul 1, 2011, 04:20 PM
This seems like it continues to erode the importance of Mac OS X as time goes on as iOS becomes more important to Apple's bottom line. It seems like it's just a commodity piece of software now. I can see Windows users virtualizing OS X, essentially removing the core of what it means to "have a Mac." At least with a Hackintosh, you really worked hard to get the OS to work on non-Apple hardware. Now it seems to easy. :o

Read the article or the actual EULA. This doesn't let you build Hackintoshes. You're now allowed to run two virtualized Lion on top of Macs only.


This has nothing to do with eroding the importance of Mac OS X but actually making developing Mac Apps much easier for developers as well as companies testing Lion apps for CS purposes.

rockinrocker
Jul 1, 2011, 04:20 PM
All it takes is prayer and faith like every advance and gift in our lives. If we all close our eyes and think it, then the lines of codes will cometh together.

I see what you did there.

(That one never gets old)

Don Kosak
Jul 1, 2011, 04:31 PM
Wow. Great news especially for people working with:

* Legacy software and software that requires Rosetta to run
* Anyone doing software development or testing
* People doing secure work that want to run in an isolated (non networked) environment
* People who have moved to using VMs (keychain PC/USB drive PC) for portability

Anyone know if Parallels works with Lion now in Host and Guest mode?

lakshwadeep
Jul 1, 2011, 04:33 PM
Yo dawg! I herd you like macs, so we put a mac in your mac
-xzibit

Xenc
Jul 1, 2011, 04:34 PM
So you can Mac while you Mac.

PeterM11
Jul 1, 2011, 04:37 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Lmao! That was great!

Anyway, I'd also like to know if we'll be able to virtualize 10.6. Not a big problem for me if we can't but it'd be a nicething to be able to do.

AppliedMicro
Jul 1, 2011, 04:38 PM
I hope this opens the door to virtualizing OS X when running under a Boot Camped Windows.
Possibly, as it might make it easier to create a VM without the need for server software.
However, I don't think this will be sanctioned by Apple, cause Mac OS X in a VM offers inferior user experience compared to running natively.

shawnjoe
Jul 1, 2011, 04:42 PM
I wonder if this would allow you to install Lion in a seperate partition like you can with Windows under bootcamp? Just thinking about using a Mac for Home and Work and keeping things completely seperate that way rather than have to run a VM. Any thoughts?

Beck4164
Jul 1, 2011, 04:51 PM
When VMware announces the new version vSphere it will support running Lion Server as a VM.

iEdd
Jul 1, 2011, 04:53 PM
I wonder if this would allow you to install Lion in a seperate partition like you can with Windows under bootcamp? Just thinking about using a Mac for Home and Work and keeping things completely seperate that way rather than have to run a VM. Any thoughts?

You could already do that. Now, I suppose it's legal with one licence.

brettgo1
Jul 1, 2011, 05:04 PM
inception!

justinfreid
Jul 1, 2011, 05:10 PM
Exactly. If this were the case, we could actually update to lion at my workplace. If not, we will be stuck at snow leopard for the foreseeable future.

Considering that this has been technically possible for a while, it's refreshing that Apple altered it's EULA to allow it.
Apple may have considered businesses in the situation you describe and is leaving this option open for them, a time warp to Snow Leopard, to allow greater enterprise adoption.
In addition, virtualizing multiple 10.7 installations even in the workstation version of Lion makes sandboxing for development much easier. Both Parallels and VMWare hadn't allowed it in their products due to the licensing issues.

Thunderhawks
Jul 1, 2011, 05:18 PM
Hey hey guys, no holy wars over software in the forums, yah? :p

What happened to separation of MacRumors and church?

We need divine intervention by SJ to get a Mac app going.
Plenty of faith in Apple here!

hehe299792458
Jul 1, 2011, 05:18 PM
Can anyone tell me how this will be implemented, given Lion is just a download from the Mac App Store? Don't you need to have installed Snow Leopard first before upgrading to Lion? And how are you going to virtualize Snow Leopard?

SkippyThorson
Jul 1, 2011, 05:25 PM
I have the same question, also for previous Mac OS X versions?
Rosetta being also one of the main usages for this.

Can VirtualBox be used also?

That's what I want to know! If I can install Leopard and / or Snow Leopard in VirtualBox under Lion, I'd be an extraordinarily happy camper.

fraserhess
Jul 1, 2011, 05:27 PM
I don't understand why they just wont make a Mac version of EasyWorship. It feels like every time I am at church they have to reboot their computers due to that app.

Let me also suggest Harmony for church presentation. It's a native Mac app, uses all the modern APIs.

http://sweeterrhythm.com

Cheers

Fraser Hess

LoadStar
Jul 1, 2011, 05:48 PM
When VMware announces the new version vSphere it will support running Lion Server as a VM.

Highly unlikely, unless Apple changes the EULA for Lion Server.

phoenixFlyer
Jul 1, 2011, 06:13 PM
Does this mean I can run Parallels on my VMWare copy of Mac OSX...:)

KingYaba
Jul 1, 2011, 06:15 PM
Can some one please tell me the point/use of this feature:confused: (I probably sound very blond asking this)
For testing and abusing. :)

hehe299792458
Jul 1, 2011, 06:21 PM
For testing and abusing. :)

I use it to avoid malware when browsing and also to compartmentalize tasks (print server, TimeMachine, etc).

tigress666
Jul 1, 2011, 06:22 PM
Ok, can some one explain to me how you would virtualize Snow Leopard to be able to run software that would only run on it (I want to go to Lion but I have two programs that I'd actually care that won't run on Lion. I don't really need them, they're just games honestly, but it would be nice if I could go to Lion and still be able to play them. Also, would it affect performance cause it sounds like the work around is running a virtual version of Snow Leopard from which I understand the virtual part takes up memory itself that the game might need).

Sorry, never ran parallels or boot camp but be interested in how you would do this (and would you need to buy separate software to be able to do this?)

NAG
Jul 1, 2011, 06:26 PM
This sounds far better than it actually is. I can understand why they don't want to run it on non-mac hardware if it is a money thing (mac hardware subsidizes the OS cost). So can't they supply VM licenses at greater expense?

zepharus
Jul 1, 2011, 06:32 PM
I would be really happy if I could do that. I would be able to run church programs (such as EasyWorship) in Boot Camp then still have access to Mac.. and then if you could use virtualization to your current mac partition.. that would be cool too.. but I doubt it.

What the **** is a frush?

KnightWRX
Jul 1, 2011, 06:34 PM
Officially, with Lion requiring the MAS to download and the installer needing to run from Snow Leopard...

How exactly are we to install Lion in a virtual machine again ?

Undecided
Jul 1, 2011, 06:36 PM
There aren't a whole lot of uses for this (I think virtualization sucks in general), but the main use for a typical end user is to run legacy software but still upgrade their system as a whole.

This is particularly important given that Lion won't include Rosetta. Using virtualization, you could upgrade your system to Lion, but run Snow Leopard in a virtual machine, in which you run the legacy software.

It's also handy, of course, to run a virtual windows system on your Mac, and to run software that requires keys that expire (backdate the virtual machine).

Software, such as TuneUp, is tied to a particular machine. I don't know if the software enforces that, but if it did, I suppose you could run it in a virtual machine, and then you can move that virtual machine around as you upgrade your Mac. ("lifetime" license but tied to a particular machine is stupid.)

hehe299792458
Jul 1, 2011, 06:58 PM
Officially, with Lion requiring the MAS to download and the installer needing to run from Snow Leopard...

How exactly are we to install Lion in a virtual machine again ?

My question exactly!

Joelb955
Jul 1, 2011, 07:06 PM
I'm Buying Lion now!

diamond.g
Jul 1, 2011, 07:10 PM
Let me also suggest Harmony for church presentation. It's a native Mac app, uses all the modern APIs.

http://sweeterrhythm.com

Cheers

Fraser Hess

That is awesome. Now I just have to work on convincing them to convert over to an all Mac church. It sure would make my job easier.

Hrunga Zmuda
Jul 1, 2011, 07:11 PM
Can I run OS 9 in Virtualization? That way I can play Deus Ex again! :rolleyes::D

xStep
Jul 1, 2011, 07:17 PM
Would be much more impressed it the EULA specified that you could run any Intel based OS X version.

nerdo
Jul 1, 2011, 07:40 PM
So we can run FCP7 and FCPX together after all! Now if we can copy the timeline from FCP to FCPX... :eek:

BollywooD
Jul 1, 2011, 08:09 PM
Officially, with Lion requiring the MAS to download and the installer needing to run from Snow Leopard...

How exactly are we to install Lion in a virtual machine again ?

Ive just finished doing just this, following the instructions from here:
http://www.obviouslogic.com:8080/solutions/lion-vmware/
:)

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/4176/lionyu.jpg

yustas
Jul 1, 2011, 08:15 PM
This great, but what are the actual steps to install another instance of the Lion? Would that require a new (not yet released version of Parallels or VMWare)? I just switched from Windows, sorry if this is a dumb question.

RalfTheDog
Jul 1, 2011, 08:23 PM
Can some one please tell me the point/use of this feature:confused: (I probably sound very blond asking this)
You can keep your primary OS clean while you do your day to day stuff in a disposable alternative reality version.

Can anyone tell me how this will be implemented, given Lion is just a download from the Mac App Store? Don't you need to have installed Snow Leopard first before upgrading to Lion? And how are you going to virtualize Snow Leopard?

You just need something that will boot and run the install script. You create a minimalistic boot partition and dump the install script you downloaded into it. Run the script and you are running on tritium.

Does this mean I can run Parallels on my VMWare copy of Mac OSX...:)

There is an error for that. If I remember, it is something like, "Virtualization hardware not found." The primary OS has the Virtualization hardware in the processor. The client OS can't access it.

What I would love to see would be some kind of hypervisor that sits above all the OSes and passes out clock cycles and hardware access. That way, you don't need to worry about which OS is a client and what one is the primary. I do see much RAM upgrading in the future.

KnightWRX
Jul 1, 2011, 08:31 PM
Ive just finished doing just this, following the instructions from here:
http://www.obviouslogic.com:8080/solutions/lion-vmware/

Keyword : Officially.

rmb7984
Jul 1, 2011, 08:37 PM
Does this mean I can run Parallels on my VMWare copy of Mac OSX...:)

Does this mean I can run Parallels on my VMWare copy of Mac OSX…:)

mjtomlin
Jul 1, 2011, 08:43 PM
I don't understand why they just wont make a Mac version of EasyWorship. It feels like every time I am at church they have to reboot their computers due to that app.

You're obviously not praying hard enough when you launch the app.

MacSince1990
Jul 1, 2011, 08:50 PM
Meh. That's what multiple hard drives/partitions are for.

Dr Kevorkian94
Jul 1, 2011, 08:50 PM
that is cool but i wouldn't have a use for it personally, lets hope the GM release means that we will get it all the more sooner:D

mjtomlin
Jul 1, 2011, 08:51 PM
Ive just finished doing just this, following the instructions from here:
http://www.obviouslogic.com:8080/solutions/lion-vmware/
:)

Whoa! That's my site. LOL Didn't think anyone was still following those instructions. Does it work with the latest build of Lion?

I'm guessing Apple is going to let us build/burn a DVD image of the Lion installer, otherwise it'll be a pain to have to run through those instructions.

Also, vmWare and Parallels, et al., will have to update their software to allow non-server versions of OS X to install.

MacSince1990
Jul 1, 2011, 08:55 PM
This seems like it continues to erode the importance of Mac OS X as time goes on as iOS becomes more important to Apple's bottom line.

How...

it seems like it's just a commodity piece of software now. I can see Windows users virtualizing OS X


Uhhh... you can only virtualize OS X... under..OS X..

Essentially removing the core of what it means to "have a Mac."

That pretty much happened when Apple switched to Intel. Macs are now just glorified PCs.

At least with a Hackintosh, you really worked hard to get the OS to work on non-Apple hardware. Now it seems to easy. :o

>_> All you have to do is emulate an EFI chip.. the hardware is all the same.There's nothing special about Macintosh hardware anymore.

mjtomlin
Jul 1, 2011, 09:02 PM
Can I run OS 9 in Virtualization? That way I can play Deus Ex again! :rolleyes::D

http://www.emaculation.com/doku.php/sheepshaver

I hope this opens the door to virtualizing OS X when running under a Boot Camped Windows.

B

Technically no this doesn't allow that, but I doubt Apple would really care as long as it's Mac hardware.

iEdd
Jul 1, 2011, 09:11 PM
Keyword : Officially.

So... Is the legal way to actually have 2 Snow Leopard licences - 1 for the Mac host and 1 for the VM, then this new EULA allows a single Lion licence to be used to upgrade both?

mjtomlin
Jul 1, 2011, 09:12 PM
That's what I want to know! If I can install Leopard and / or Snow Leopard in VirtualBox under Lion, I'd be an extraordinarily happy camper.

http://blog.rectalogic.com/2008/08/virtualizing-mac-os-x-leopard-client.html

Digitalclips
Jul 1, 2011, 09:31 PM
worship software?.. really?

Didn't I read the guy claiming the world would end recently collected as much as 19 million dollars from gullible followers? It's big businesses it seems I wonder why no one else though if that ... Oh wait a minute!

This great, but what are the actual steps to install another instance of the Lion? Would that require a new (not yet released version of Parallels or VMWare)? I just switched from Windows, sorry if this is a dumb question.

I kind of works using the server install but yes the Parallel Tools or VMTools need to be updated for this to work properly. There are beta versions out so I expect this will be available with Lion or soon there after.

BollywooD
Jul 1, 2011, 09:40 PM
Whoa! That's my site. LOL Didn't think anyone was still following those instructions. Does it work with the latest build of Lion?

I'm guessing Apple is going to let us build/burn a DVD image of the Lion installer, otherwise it'll be a pain to have to run through those instructions.

Also, vmWare and Parallels, et al., will have to update their software to allow non-server versions of OS X to install.

I followed the instructions pretty much to the letter for the GM, thanks for the clear instructions!
it took about an hour

bearcatrp
Jul 1, 2011, 10:01 PM
Now if I could network a Mac and PC together and run the virtual OS on the PC, using the pc's memory and processors, I would be very impressed. but would really like apple to license older OSX to vm on a PC. Would sell very well.

AaronEdwards
Jul 1, 2011, 10:03 PM
Uhhh... you can only virtualize OS X... under..OS X..

False.


Edit: Google and you'll find number of ways to virtualize OS X under Windows with VirtualBox or VMWare. Not to mention people running OS X on PC hardware.

Aduntu
Jul 1, 2011, 10:42 PM
Thanks for that, I didn't realize it would be a mainly developer thing.

It's not. There are tons of reasons to use virtual machines. Developing is just a few of them.

28monkeys
Jul 1, 2011, 10:59 PM
Seem like no one is complaining?!

zeemeerman2
Jul 2, 2011, 01:47 AM
(iii) to install, use and run up to two (2) additional copies or instances of the Apple Software within virtual operating system environments on each Mac Computer you own or control that is already running the Apple Software.
So it seems to me that there is a total of three physical machines and/or virtual machines that you can license to. This is great if you use, say:
1 part of the license for updating your current machine
1 part of the license for running a possible virtual machine like described in posts above
1 part of the license as a reserve, for upgrading. Say you bought a used Mac on eBay, but apparently it came with Snow Leopard and the original buyer never upgraded. Instead of complaining how this was not part of the "unwritten" contract, how it's not what you expected etc... You can now save yourself all the hassle and just upgrade. No big deal now.
Nowhere on the EULA* it says you have to use it on your current Mac, as Macrumors implies.

This last option isn't posted anywhere. Why come no-one thought of this in this thread? :confused:

*End user license agreement. Used in EU. For US users, use USLA. :p

Nightarchaon
Jul 2, 2011, 04:59 AM
Does this mean i can run two copies of lion on lion, and two copies of lion on each copy of lion running on lion, and two copies of lion running on the two copies of lion running on the two copies of lion running on lion etc ?

i know your thinking, why the hell would anyone want to that,

well

i dont know, but im going to try...

rmwebs
Jul 2, 2011, 05:12 AM
This'll be pretty useful for those needing to run Rosetta as you could just install SL on it and run classic apps (in theory).

Supa_Fly
Jul 2, 2011, 05:14 AM
With all the features of OSX Lion, I fail to see how well it'll do for simplistic things like browsing on current MBP13" and previous MB13" hardware when Apple does NOT follow its own design principles on the home page.

So looking at OSX's site or the OSX Server site
http://www.apple.com/macosx/
http://www.apple.com/macosx/server

The default zoom its just TOO big for the default Safari browser page size, thus looking at the auto-panned feature pics of OSX it doesn't all fit in the window without a) maximizing the Safari window, or b) zooming out of the window. I prefer to still see my desktop files in the background while I browse - I'm unsure how I've developed this habit but i have it. I don't know if full-screen apps will cure me from this though. I think I got it when drag+drop (from desktop into browser) was first implemented almost a decade ago.

haravikk
Jul 2, 2011, 05:29 AM
Is this being extended to Snow Leopard? I'm most interested in being able to run Snow Leopard within VMWare Fusion or Parallels so that I can continue to have Rosetta support as needed for some few programs.

gilles9
Jul 2, 2011, 05:39 AM
Is this being extended to Snow Leopard? I'm most interested in being able to run Snow Leopard within VMWare Fusion or Parallels so that I can continue to have Rosetta support as needed for some few programs.

This is what I need as well !

I used Parallels sometimes ago (a few years back)
I never noticed you could use Parallels with a Mac Os system; I thought it was only to run Windows

Does Parallels allows to install an older Mac OS X as a virtual machine ?
or
Do we need to wait for Parallels to update its software for such ?
(or VMFusion)

dempson
Jul 2, 2011, 06:20 AM
So it seems to me that there is a total of three physical machines and/or virtual machines that you can license to.

The "limit of three" is applicable to each computer (Lion running on the computer, plus two virtual machines also running Lion on the same computer). Even without this new clause relating to virtualization, Apple already said that Lion would use the same general licence as everything else on the App Store: for personal use you can install Lion on every Mac you own or control. (Commercial use is either unlimited computers used by a single person, or a single computer which may be used by multiple people; for multiple people using multiple computers you need a licence for each computer or each person.)

This is great if you use, say:
1 part of the license for updating your current machine
1 part of the license for running a possible virtual machine like described in posts above
1 part of the license as a reserve, for upgrading. Say you bought a used Mac on eBay, but apparently it came with Snow Leopard and the original buyer never upgraded.

Once you have bought Lion you can install it on any computer you buy for personal use. In your example you can legally install Lion on that used iMac even if it is installed on your existing computer, plus has two VM installations on your existing computer. You could also run another two copies of Lion on the iMac under virtualization. So far, that's up to six installations of Lion from your single $29.99 purchase. Add another real plus two virtual installations for any other compatible Macs you own or control.

KnightWRX
Jul 2, 2011, 06:55 AM
So... Is the legal way to actually have 2 Snow Leopard licences - 1 for the Mac host and 1 for the VM, then this new EULA allows a single Lion licence to be used to upgrade both?

The Snow Leopard license doesn't allow that.

mdnz
Jul 2, 2011, 07:18 AM
Does this mean i can run two copies of lion on lion, and two copies of lion on each copy of lion running on lion, and two copies of lion running on the two copies of lion running on the two copies of lion running on lion etc ?

i know your thinking, why the hell would anyone want to that,

well

i dont know, but im going to try...

You can't run a virtual machine inside a virtual machine unless you edit some config files, which I'm not sure if they're avaiable for the consumer virtualisation products.

mmcc
Jul 2, 2011, 07:39 AM
Can some one please tell me the point/use of this feature:confused: (I probably sound very blond asking this)

For typical customer use, it is not that useful. But for developers... it is about time this was allowed. Developers need to test their apps against pre-release Apple software. As a small developer I don't have (or want) a room full of different Macs on which to run such tests. This allows me to test in a "sandbox" virtual environment on one machine.

The same goes for supporting older OS X versions during development. It is much easier to have, for example, a virtual OS X 10.5.8 setup on my Mac rather than a separate partition or separate machine dedicated just for such tests.

This feature should help developers bring products to market faster, and also make it easier for them to maintain backward compatibility where appropriate.

mmcc
Jul 2, 2011, 07:42 AM
Meh. That's what multiple hard drives/partitions are for.

So one has to reboot to run legacy software?

Reboot to test a code change in a current app under development for backward compatibility?

No thanks.

grahamperrin
Jul 2, 2011, 09:20 AM
Now, users could run lion, and install snow leopard in a VM …

Please do not make that assumption without viewing the license in its entirety.

… If I can install Leopard and / or Snow Leopard in VirtualBox …

Please see:

— VMs, virtual computers: attention to Apple software license agreements for Mac OS X (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12086296&postcount=35)

— and in the VirtualBox area,
Mac OS X Server guests —Important notice regarding Mac OS X as Guest (http://forums.virtualbox.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=31104)

For clarification: wait until after Lion is released, wait until after Apple publishes the license for Lion.

So it seems to me that there is a total of three physical machines and/or virtual machines that you can license to.

Rather than read between the lines of the limited information that was leaked, please wait for Apple to publish the information.

http://www.apple.com/legal/sla/

… the legal way …?

http://www.apple.com/legal/sla/

… run Snow Leopard in a virtual machine …

The original article (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/07/01/os-x-lion-allows-running-multiple-copies-on-the-same-machine-virtualization/) does not make that suggestion. Expect Apple's license to consist of more than one sentence …

… how you would virtualize Snow Leopard …

For Snow Leopard Server (not Snow Leopard) the answer will depend on which software you choose to host the guest VM.

… from the Mac App Store? Don't you need to have installed Snow Leopard first before upgrading to Lion?

Day one

To download the installer for Lion on the day of its release will require the App Store, which is in the most recent versions of Snow Leopard.

No App Store in Leopard or earlier versions of the OS.

Beyond that, see for example Mac OS X Licensing from Mac App Store (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1173517); and please wait for Apple to publish additional information.

tigress666
Jul 2, 2011, 09:36 AM
This'll be pretty useful for those needing to run Rosetta as you could just install SL on it and run classic apps (in theory).

So I'm guessing you'd use a virtual software?

I'm interested in the idea for just a few games I have (I know, nothing important but be nice to have a way to play them still if I upgrade).

sjinsjca
Jul 2, 2011, 11:07 AM
Me likey!

dstranathan
Jul 2, 2011, 11:40 AM
When VMware announces the new version vSphere it will support running Lion Server as a VM.

How do you know this?

heisetax
Jul 2, 2011, 11:43 AM
So I'm guessing you'd use a virtual software?

I'm interested in the idea for just a few games I have (I know, nothing important but be nice to have a way to play them still if I upgrade).

If we are allowed to run our older PPC apps that are still required to run our business or just to have fun with our Macs all without rebooting into an older system we can call this an upgrade.

Without this there would be less of a reason to purchase a new Mac that will only boot using Mac OS 10.7 Lion or later. Developers may be a major use for this, but all the people that said they would not update/upgrade without Rosetta may now be able to have both the new & the old. As some have said that this allows Apple to get rid of Rosetta without getting rid of the use of Rosetta.

If this will allow the use of Rosetta & Mac OS 10.5 or 10.6 then the change to Mac OS 10.7 Lion will happen in a much quicker time frame. I had heard that Apple was working on a way around some of the problems that the lack of Rosetta was causing. This may be the rumored solution.

kotis
Jul 2, 2011, 11:51 AM
- Will Lion Server have all the functionality of Lion, plus the server components? Thus can I use it as my regular user level OS and have the server components when I want, particularly for use with our 3 iPhones and 2 iPads, and two Powerbooks.

- Other than the negligible cost, is there any reason not to use Lion Server as my regular OS?

winterspan
Jul 2, 2011, 11:59 AM
all it takes is prayer and faith like every advance and gift in our lives. If we all close our eyes and think it, then the lines of codes will cometh together.

hahahahhah!

Monty88
Jul 2, 2011, 12:31 PM
Why might one want to do such a thing?

AaronEdwards
Jul 2, 2011, 12:35 PM
Why might one want to do such a thing?

That question has been asked and answered a number of times already.

Eric-PTEK
Jul 2, 2011, 12:42 PM
I'd pay a decent sum of money to be able to virtualize under Hyper-V or something like that on a Windows server.

If anything Apple could increase their market penetration into business by allowing osX virtualization. I can think of a bunch of customers would who look at more mixed environments. They do not want to manage 2 separate servers(and neither do I) but running osX server in VM to share data through a NAS to Mac clients would be great.

I'd pay 800-900 for a server license for VM.

nutjob
Jul 2, 2011, 01:47 PM
Does this mean i can run two copies of lion on lion, and two copies of lion on each copy of lion running on lion, and two copies of lion running on the two copies of lion running on the two copies of lion running on lion etc ?

i know your thinking, why the hell would anyone want to that,

well

i dont know, but im going to try...

No, because the VM software won't run in a VM.

jgk6502
Jul 2, 2011, 02:21 PM
- you can try software without impacting your main installation
- you can try different config without impacting your main installation
- nice for software development to have an independent virtual system you can restore by copying just the image with the VM
...

for many casual user its not needed and only fancy; not sure if I will use it regularly but for sure will give it a try.

I might add, simultaneous users would be great. 1 multicore iMac, 2 additional Thunderbolt displays running on 2 virtualized OSes and virtualized GPU. Now you have 3 concurrent users.

SkippyThorson
Jul 2, 2011, 02:30 PM
http://blog.rectalogic.com/2008/08/virtualizing-mac-os-x-leopard-client.html

...and the Angels sang.

When VirtualBox updates to allow this, any complaint I had about Lion dropping Rosetta is gone.

twoodcc
Jul 2, 2011, 02:45 PM
Awesome! But why limit it to 2?

Rodimus Prime
Jul 2, 2011, 02:52 PM
There aren't a whole lot of uses for this (I think virtualization sucks in general), but the main use for a typical end user is to run legacy software but still upgrade their system as a whole.

This is particularly important given that Lion won't include Rosetta. Using virtualization, you could upgrade your system to Lion, but run Snow Leopard in a virtual machine, in which you run the legacy software.

It's also handy, of course, to run a virtual windows system on your Mac, and to run software that requires keys that expire (backdate the virtual machine).

Software, such as TuneUp, is tied to a particular machine. I don't know if the software enforces that, but if it did, I suppose you could run it in a virtual machine, and then you can move that virtual machine around as you upgrade your Mac. ("lifetime" license but tied to a particular machine is stupid.)

For the average user yeah virtualization has no use but if you run a server or software dev it is a great tool being able to sandbox things or to provide different test beds for things. Having to restart one of the server does not force you to restart the entire computer or server. That and you can only mess up the virtualized OS.

Awesome! But why limit it to 2?

My only guess is if you go beyond 2 you really should be buying more licenses. I think even MS limits you to a certain number as well.

Also remember Apple is killing off its server grade stuff and since it does not have any server grade hardware there is no real need to go beyond 2.

Crunch
Jul 2, 2011, 03:07 PM
Just installed Lion GM and the few bugs that were there in DP4 w/ Update 1 seem to be gone. Also, the instructional videos for the gestures are now present and the login has been modified slightly to where you have to perform a gesture to get to the "Start Using Lion" button. One change in the dock is that Mission Control's icon was put to the left of Launchpad. A purely cosmetic change that I'm not sure I like as my dock is filled with enough apps that I launch from the dock. For Mission Control, I have to set to use four fingers up, which by the way, now works! This was one bug that survived DP3's Updates 1 and 2, DP4 and the one update to DP4 that was released. Finally, that is also fixed as part of the GM version.

After installing the GM, there is a ThunderBolt fix that shows up in Software Update, which requires a restart. iTunes 10.5 is NOT part of Lion GM and neither is iCloud, which will remain betas beyond Lion's final release, as that has more to do with iOS 5 than OS X Lion.

The Evernote client for OS X (2.2.2 beta 1) kept crashing in DP4 w/update but now it works great in the GM release.

My 2 cents as I'm coming up on one full month of using Lion exclusively. ;-)

Prodo123
Jul 2, 2011, 03:37 PM
Sup dawg i heard u like macs
so we put a mac in a mac so you can use it while u use it

Mac in a Mac in a Mac in a Mac...INCEPTION

!¡ V ¡!
Jul 2, 2011, 05:07 PM
Beneficial to SW developers and Network Administrators. Not applicable to me as its a home computer. Hope ones can uninstall this to reduce space usage. :)

DocNo
Jul 2, 2011, 05:43 PM
worship software?.. really?

Just because it's not interesting to you doesn't mean it's interesting to no one :rolleyes:

Baron58
Jul 2, 2011, 06:11 PM
Not applicable to me as its a home computer. Hope ones can uninstall this to reduce space usage. :)

You *really* don't understand what's being discussed here, do you?

mac jones
Jul 2, 2011, 07:38 PM
Are the 'virtual' instances running in parallel, or is it a series (in a box)?

In other words, is one instance going to be slower?

It would be great to just be able to 'switch' logins, so that there's no performance degradation. But i'm not sure that's even possible (probably not)

I imagine it's just like VMware, except with OS X exclusively, which would be useful for testing stuff, but that's about it.

jljue
Jul 2, 2011, 09:27 PM
All it takes is prayer and faith like every advance and gift in our lives. If we all close our eyes and think it, then the lines of codes will cometh together.

We use to use Media Shout, but because of lockup problems all of the time with some moving backgrounds and videos, we switched to ProPresenter and the Mac platform. Ever since, everyone at the church wants a Mac.

!¡ V ¡!
Jul 2, 2011, 10:41 PM
You *really* don't understand what's being discussed here, do you?

I am completely aware of what is being discussed. :)

Used VMWare Fusion, Parallells, etc for many OS's. I believe you might have misread my comments. :)

kocoman
Jul 2, 2011, 11:44 PM
I followed the instructions pretty much to the letter for the GM, thanks for the clear instructions!
it took about an hour

I tried it but I keep on getting "Waiting for boot device"

I think its similar to the problem I had before

VMware Fusion 3 run SL Server (Still waiting for root device)?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I boot a unmodified SL 10.6 Server install disc, it boots fine into the install, but I wanted to mod it with the "-v" command in the com.boot.plist (via a R/W DMG), then it does not boot? Why is this

edit: I have to try this below and see if it will fix it

Hi. I did solve the problem, but naughtily neglected to post
the solution. It appears what was wrong was the format of
the disk image. I had a DMG of my Snow Leopard disk and
it had no partition map. I restored the image to another image,
but this time with an "Apple Partition Map" and the VM booted
off that successfully. This was based on advice read here:

http://www.obviouslogic.com:8080/solutions/lion-vmware

AidenShaw
Jul 3, 2011, 06:41 AM
Is this being extended to Snow Leopard? I'm most interested in being able to run Snow Leopard within VMWare Fusion or Parallels so that I can continue to have Rosetta support as needed for some few programs.

And so many people have made fun of "XP Mode" on Windows... ;)

antmarobel
Jul 3, 2011, 06:43 AM
What's that suppose to mean?...That I can run Tiger on my Mac 2010?:eek:

Eric-PTEK
Jul 3, 2011, 07:29 AM
Are the 'virtual' instances running in parallel, or is it a series (in a box)?

In other words, is one instance going to be slower?

It would be great to just be able to 'switch' logins, so that there's no performance degradation. But i'm not sure that's even possible (probably not)

I imagine it's just like VMware, except with OS X exclusively, which would be useful for testing stuff, but that's about it.

They all run at the same time. Virtualization performance is great. Even on my MB Air Fusion runs Win7 at a decent speed with 2GB of ram dedicated.

On slightly larger equipment I can run 2-3 VM's of Server 2008 R2 and the host OS and performance remains decent and thats on a dual dual core 2.0ghz Xeon 2 gens old.

When we do a lot with remote desktop the server that the actual clients log into is a VM on a host box. Have a hundred people using virtual remote terminal sessions on a VM and you'd never know.

Performance is mostly effected by disk speed, the faster the disk the better the performance is, which probably explains why its so decent on the Air even with the low CPU speed.

Supporting more VT features in the CPU helps too, I think there are 4-5 core features but for most users only a couple really matter unless your getting into larger enterprise installations where your trying to squeeze out every last bit.

AidenShaw
Jul 3, 2011, 08:46 AM
Originally Posted by Nightarchaon
Does this mean i can run two copies of lion on lion, and two copies of lion on each copy of lion running on lion, and two copies of lion running on the two copies of lion running on the two copies of lion running on lion etc ?

You can't run a virtual machine inside a virtual machine unless you edit some config files, which I'm not sure if they're avaiable for the consumer virtualisation products.

No, because the VM software won't run in a VM.

In one case you can - you can run a VMware ESX hypervisor in a virtual machine. I don't know if tricking other VM monitors with config editing would work, but it could as long as the VMM does not require hardware VT acceleration.

But, because of the last point, nesting VMs would result in much poorer performance because the nested VMs would not be able to use the hardware VT acceleration. Much more emulation would be required.

Running ESX as a VM is a handy development tool for testing ESX environments. It is not a reasonable deployment environment, however.

the8thark
Jul 3, 2011, 08:54 AM
What's that suppose to mean?...That I can run Tiger on my Mac 2010?:eek:
So then you can run Classic. And run a virtual OS (OS 9) on your virtual OS (10.4) on your actual OS (10.7).

Or just get sheepshaver. But yeah but not as cool as OS9 in OS10.4 in OS10.7.

Tampa Tom
Jul 3, 2011, 10:27 AM
I would be really happy if I could do that. I would be able to run church programs (such as EasyWorship) in Boot Camp then still have access to Mac.. and then if you could use virtualization to your current mac partition.. that would be cool too.. but I doubt it.

I too want EasyWorship for Mac. I sent them an email andy they replied:

We want to release a Mac version as soon as possible. However, it looks
like it may be fall before we see a beta released.
You can periodic updates on the progress by sending an email to
notifyme@easyworship.com

chenjas1
Jul 3, 2011, 10:31 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/9A5248d Safari/6533.18.5)

Like a dream within a dream. A la Inception.

Rafterman
Jul 3, 2011, 10:45 AM
Okay. It's not going to take off in the enterprise unless they allow virtualized copies to run on non-apple hardware.

I agree, but I'll be surprised if Apple allows this. Then it would allow people with what Steve Jobs would call "junk hardware" to run Apple's precious OS. Buy a $30 copy of the OS, load it up in VMware for Windows on a cheapie $300 laptop, and instant Macbook, without many of the hardware and driver problems that hackintoshes normally involve.

gnasher729
Jul 3, 2011, 10:59 AM
So it seems to me that there is a total of three physical machines and/or virtual machines that you can license to. This is great if you use, say:
1 part of the license for updating your current machine
1 part of the license for running a possible virtual machine like described in posts above
1 part of the license as a reserve, for upgrading. Say you bought a used Mac on eBay, but apparently it came with Snow Leopard and the original buyer never upgraded. Instead of complaining how this was not part of the "unwritten" contract, how it's not what you expected etc... You can now save yourself all the hassle and just upgrade. No big deal now.
Nowhere on the EULA* it says you have to use it on your current Mac, as Macrumors implies.

This last option isn't posted anywhere. Why come no-one thought of this in this thread? :confused:

Because you didn't read the license terms properly. For non-commercial use, you can install and run _any_ software from the MAS on all the Macs that you own and control anyway, including Lion. In addition, Apple allows you to install two additional copies of Lion on _each_ Mac that you own and control.


Does this mean i can run two copies of lion on lion, and two copies of lion on each copy of lion running on lion, and two copies of lion running on the two copies of lion running on the two copies of lion running on lion etc ?

Two additional copies on each _Macintosh_ that you own.

KnightWRX
Jul 3, 2011, 11:33 AM
So then you can run Classic. And run a virtual OS (OS 9) on your virtual OS (10.4) on your actual OS (10.7).

Virtualization is not emulation. Tiger virtualized would be x86 Tiger, which didn't support Classic. So your scenario is impossible with virtualization in this case.

And no, this is a change to Lion's EULA, not older OSes' EULAs. So you can't virtualize Tiger, Leopard or Snow Leopard if I'm reading the article correctly, only Lion.

pdjudd
Jul 3, 2011, 12:51 PM
Virtualization is not emulation. Tiger virtualized would be x86 Tiger, which didn't support Classic. So your scenario is impossible with virtualization in this case.
Correct - Classic is 100% dependent on the PPC architecture if I remember right.

And no, this is a change to Lion's EULA, not older OSes' EULAs. So you can't virtualize Tiger, Leopard or Snow Leopard if I'm reading the article correctly, only Lion.

That is also correct. Apple would have to alter the EULA’s of what essentially two discontinued products and one product (x86 Tiger) that was only released OEM with Intel Mac’s.

Snowy_River
Jul 3, 2011, 01:35 PM
...And no, this is a change to Lion's EULA, not older OSes' EULAs. So you can't virtualize Tiger, Leopard or Snow Leopard if I'm reading the article correctly, only Lion.

That is also correct. Apple would have to alter the EULA’s of what essentially two discontinued products and one product (x86 Tiger) that was only released OEM with Intel Mac’s.

Apple has been known to change terms on older products, I believe, so it's still not impossible.

Like many others here, the dropping of Rosetta is a critical issue for me. To upgrade all of the software that I have that requires Rosetta to run (or at least that software for which upgrades exist) would cost me close to $2,000. That's a pretty high price to pay for upgrading an operating system. And given that none of my software has any issues with running right now, I have no other motivation to pay the upgrade cost. Now, if I could sandbox those apps that need Rosetta into a virtual machine, that would make the Lion upgrade much more plausible.

Here's hoping that this is the route that Apple is taking...

None Such
Jul 3, 2011, 03:29 PM
Where can I get that wallpaper? The galaxy one.

jacobo007
Jul 3, 2011, 03:51 PM
Just because it's not interesting to you doesn't mean it's interesting to no one :rolleyes:

Actually it was very interesting to me, i didn't know such a thing existed.

mcnaugha
Jul 3, 2011, 04:13 PM
Where can I get that wallpaper? The galaxy one.

Comes with Lion. So Mac App Store sometime this month. :D

gnasher729
Jul 3, 2011, 05:12 PM
Virtualization is not emulation. Tiger virtualized would be x86 Tiger, which didn't support Classic. So your scenario is impossible with virtualization in this case.

And no, this is a change to Lion's EULA, not older OSes' EULAs. So you can't virtualize Tiger, Leopard or Snow Leopard if I'm reading the article correctly, only Lion.

I am not sure. The license for Snow Leopard for example seems to say that you can install and use _one_ copy of Snow Leopard on _one_ Apple-branded computer. There is no mention of virtual machines. Running Snow Leopard plus a copy in a VM would be against the license, but having only one copy installed on a Macintosh and running it in a VM doesn't seem to be against the license.

grue
Jul 3, 2011, 06:48 PM
worship software?.. really?

The money people piss away into the collection plate has to be used for something besides luxury cars for the priest/minister/chaplain/conartist/whatever, right?

grue
Jul 3, 2011, 06:51 PM
I'd pay a decent sum of money to be able to virtualize under Hyper-V or something like that on a Windows server.

If anything Apple could increase their market penetration into business by allowing osX virtualization. I can think of a bunch of customers would who look at more mixed environments. They do not want to manage 2 separate servers(and neither do I) but running osX server in VM to share data through a NAS to Mac clients would be great.

I'd pay 800-900 for a server license for VM.

Apple makes their money in hardware. The Johnny-come-lately iDevice sackriders weren't around for the last time Apple tried to license the OS… it wasn't pretty.

xStep
Jul 3, 2011, 07:38 PM
Where can I get that wallpaper? The galaxy one.

Here is one source; http://osxdaily.com/2011/06/06/mac-os-x-lion-galaxy-andromeda-space-wallpaper/

I'm sure you could find even more impressive images when looking for images frome the Hubble space telescope.

Snowy_River
Jul 3, 2011, 07:41 PM
I am not sure. The license for Snow Leopard for example seems to say that you can install and use _one_ copy of Snow Leopard on _one_ Apple-branded computer. There is no mention of virtual machines. Running Snow Leopard plus a copy in a VM would be against the license, but having only one copy installed on a Macintosh and running it in a VM doesn't seem to be against the license.

Interesting... So, if we were running Lion as the main OS, then running Snow Leopard in a VM wouldn't be violating the license? Again, interesting, if true...

kocoman
Jul 3, 2011, 08:46 PM
Also has anyone gotten the

virtual desktops, which Lion is also slated to support; that second feature means that you can remotely connect to your user account and your desktop 'underneath' a user who is currently logged in to the machine. A similar capability was baked into Snow Leopard, but it required some hairy workarounds to use effectively; the Lion version will be single-click friendly.

http://9to5mac.com/2011/02/27/10-7-lion-allows-multi-user-remote-computing/
http://www.joostteam.com/2011/05/16/lion-preview-3-no-more-multi-user-screen-sharing/

To work in GM?

Eriamjh1138@DAN
Jul 4, 2011, 06:47 AM
Interesting... So, if we were running Lion as the main OS, then running Snow Leopard in a VM wouldn't be violating the license? Again, interesting, if true...

Interesting? I wouldn't care if God killed a kitten every time if I could run SL inside Lion! Bring it on! I can keep my printer and Rosetta and my legacy apps!

thertrain
Jul 4, 2011, 10:46 AM
I've done a clean install with the new GM Build and it appears the last few bugs were worked out from Dev Prev 4. This idea of virtualizing is interesting but I couldn't get it to work. Has anyone figured out how or are we just waiting on Parallels and VM Ware to issue updates to their software?

MikhailT
Jul 4, 2011, 11:05 AM
I've done a clean install with the new GM Build and it appears the last few bugs were worked out from Dev Prev 4. This idea of virtualizing is interesting but I couldn't get it to work. Has anyone figured out how or are we just waiting on Parallels and VM Ware to issue updates to their software?

You have to wait for updates with the official support for Lion client.

rideh
Jul 4, 2011, 11:39 AM
I think this might be opening the door for legal XenClient.. If that's the case - this is fantastic news. Just bought my first mac the other day and while most tings have been fantastic - dealing with built in php / mysql has been a bear for setting up my environment. If i could just run that off a linux box in parallel I could get back to work!

antmarobel
Jul 4, 2011, 07:52 PM
Come on guys, explain me that in a smooth way...I tried to run Tiger via VMaware here in my GM but it did not work. Am I getting it right? Is it really possible to run Tiger ( for instance ) on Lion GM through some virtualization application like VMaware or Parallels?...Forgive me if I'm being that stupid...:o

MikhailT
Jul 4, 2011, 08:00 PM
Come on guys, explain me that in a smooth way...I tried to run Tiger via VMaware here in my GM but it did not work. Am I getting it right? Is it really possible to run Tiger ( for instance ) on Lion GM through some virtualization application like VMaware or Parallels?...Forgive me if I'm being that stupid...:o

No, Tiger, Leopard or Snow Leopard's EULA doesn't allow you to virtualize them at all. Only Lion can be virtualized on top of Macs.

McGiord
Jul 4, 2011, 08:01 PM
Come on guys, explain me that in a smooth way...I tried to run Tiger via VMaware here in my GM but it did not work. Am I getting it right? Is it really possible to run Tiger ( for instance ) on Lion GM through some virtualization application like VMaware or Parallels?...Forgive me if I'm being that stupid...:o

Previous OS X versions are not allowed under virtual machines by Apple. Some of us, like you, are wanting to install previous Mac OS versions in a virtual machine, but it is still not clear if Apple will allow it. The main reason is to be able to run Leopard or Snow Leopard and run Rosetta for PowerPC Apps.

jonnysods
Jul 5, 2011, 07:21 AM
So will I be able to run 10.6 inside the VM? Very excited about this!

grahamperrin
Jul 5, 2011, 07:29 AM
… license for Snow Leopard … one copy … in a VM doesn't seem to be against the license.

True. For example: start Windows from a Boot Camp physical partition, use Snow Leopard in a virtual machine.

… if we were running Lion as the main OS, then running Snow Leopard in a VM …

If through the App Store you purchase the low cost upgrade from Snow Leopard to 10.7, then (at this time) it may be safest to assume that you do not explicitly have the right to continue using the one Snow Leopard, which you upgraded, at the same time as 10.7. Assume that to use both systems at the same time, you should have for Snow Leopard a separate license that is not upgraded.

Please see preceding pages, in particular post 88 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12865607) and please, read the license in its entirety after publication by Apple.

Previous OS X versions are not allowed under virtual machines …

Current exceptions to that statement include Mac OS X Server.

AidenShaw
Jul 5, 2011, 09:35 AM
Virtualization is not emulation.

By the definition of the English word - it certainly is. The guest OS sees an emulated system that is not the same as the physical system (my VM has a graphics "card", but it doesn't see it as the Quadro that's actually in the box - the VM has a CPU that doesn't have VT-x support, even though the hardware has VT-x, ....).

Apple users often think that "emulation" only means "full instruction set architecture (ISA) emulation" such as was the case for Windows on Virtual PC on PowerPC Macs. The term can be applied to any case where the software sees something that isn't physically there.

Even with hardware accelerated virtualization, some instructions have to be emulated. Kernel code that accesses the hardware directly must be trapped and emulated. Hardware accelerated virtualization speeds these traps (and eliminates some by hardware emulation or sandboxing of the instruction) - but instruction emulation is occuring.

It's a semantic distinction - if you mean full ISA emulation, say so. If you claim that x64 virtualization on x64 does not involve emulation, you're on shaky ground.

McGiord
Jul 6, 2011, 07:58 PM
The guys at Hardmac.com were able to install Snow Leopard on virtualbox. So this looks promising:
http://feeds.hardmac.com/~r/hardmac/~3/K2t8Y2Jx-EA/a-snow-leopard-vm-on-mac-os-lion

MacCrack™
Jul 11, 2011, 05:46 PM
The guys at Hardmac.com were able to install Snow Leopard on virtualbox. So this looks promising:
http://feeds.hardmac.com/~r/hardmac/~3/K2t8Y2Jx-EA/a-snow-leopard-vm-on-mac-os-lion

I have Snow Leopard Client working stable in both VirtualBox and VMware Fusion on a Mac Pro and an iMac both running Lion GM. It works like a charm :)

applephysci
Jul 12, 2011, 12:02 AM
I have Snow Leopard Client working stable in both VirtualBox and VMware Fusion on a Mac Pro and an iMac both running Lion GM. It works like a charm :)

Can you please explain how you were able to do so using VMware Fusion on a Mac Pro? Everyone I've discussed this and several posts online seem to indicate that the current version of VMware Fusion needs to be updated for Snow Leopard to work.

MacCrack™
Jul 12, 2011, 06:10 AM
Can you please explain how you were able to do so using VMware Fusion on a Mac Pro? Everyone I've discussed this and several posts online seem to indicate that the current version of VMware Fusion needs to be updated for Snow Leopard to work.

Go to this blog (http://blog.rectalogic.com/2008/08/virtualizing-mac-os-x-leopard-client.html) and search voor "KR said". Start reading from there. Good luck!

applephysci
Jul 13, 2011, 07:52 AM
Go to this blog (http://blog.rectalogic.com/2008/08/virtualizing-mac-os-x-leopard-client.html) and search voor "KR said". Start reading from there. Good luck!

Excellent info. Just tried this. Works like a charm.

I hope we can get the reverse done as well. Run OSX Lion client in VMware on a MacPro running Snow Leopard.

MacCrack™
Jul 13, 2011, 09:38 AM
Excellent info. Just tried this. Works like a charm.

I hope we can get the reverse done as well. Run OSX Lion client in VMware on a MacPro running Snow Leopard.

We can. Instructions are here (http://macbb.org/showthread.php?t=64431) ;-)

senecajim
Jul 13, 2011, 02:54 PM
I have Snow Leopard Client working stable in both VirtualBox and VMware Fusion on a Mac Pro and an iMac both running Lion GM. It works like a charm :)

How did you get Snow Leopard (non-server version) installed in Virtualbox?

MacCrack™
Jul 13, 2011, 07:04 PM
How did you get Snow Leopard (non-server version) installed in Virtualbox?

It is very easy. Create a new machine in Virtual Box, tell Virtual Box that it is going to be an OS X Leopard (Snow) Server (either 32 or 64 bits) machine but use a Leopard (Snow) Client DVD or disk image (dmg or iso) to install.

No hacking required, except that you might want to change the resolution to something bigger than the standard choosen 1024x768. You will find instructions to do this in the online Virtual Box Manual:

http://www.virtualbox.org/manual/ch03.html#efividmode Look for "Video modes in EFI".

Virtual Box allows a lot more than VMware and Parellels :-)

applephysci
Jul 13, 2011, 11:17 PM
We can. Instructions are here (http://macbb.org/showthread.php?t=64431) ;-)

Great. Will try this out as well.

This suggests that it will work provided that Lion is available as a disk image. Is or will it be possible to get Lion release version (via the Mac App Store) as a dmg then?

MyopicPaideia
Jul 22, 2011, 02:58 AM
That question has been asked and answered a number of times already.

One Mac Mini Server running Lion Server with two virtual machines running independent installations, with VPN services setup properly.

Two iPad 2's running Splashtop and accessing the server through VPN or the local network.

Could you theoretically then have an iPad that essentially runs Lion?