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MacRumors
Jul 4, 2011, 09:54 AM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/07/04/next-macbook-air-to-adopt-faster-more-power-efficient-ssd/)


Mac Otakara (http://www.macotakara.jp/blog/index.php?ID=13246) claims that Apple will be adopting a new Toggle DDR 2.0 (http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/products/flash/Products_Toggle_DDR_NANDFlash.html) type of NAND Flash Memory for the basis of the new MacBook Air's SSD drive. The Japanese website cites an "Asian electronics component person" as the source of the information. (via AppleInsider (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/07/04/apple_rumored_to_feature_high_speed_400mbps_flash_memory_in_new_macbook_air.html)) Current SSD device Blade X-gale supporting SATA 2.6 will be abolished and new 19nm flash memory will be packaged into smaller chip and will be soldered on base circuit directly.The move would be a rapid departure by Apple from the current SSD stick format that was just introduced in last year's MacBook Air. Instead of a replaceable part, the new Flash chips would be soldered directly onto the MacBook Air's motherboard.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/07/20110512_2m01_1.jpg
The new format supports speeds of 400Mb/s and in conjunction with a new ONFI 3.0 (http://onfi.org/news-events/onfi-announces-publication-of-the-3-0-standard-pushes-data-transfer-speeds-to-400-mbsec/) standard will allow future controllers to run faster or similar performance to today's SSDs with "half the number of channels, providing both a cost and space savings".

Samsung also touted (http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/permalink/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20100616006886&newsLang=en) another major feature of this new technology last year, claiming that a low-power mode could extend a notebook's battery life for an hour or more.The resulting power throttling capability enables the drive's high-performance levels without any increase in power consumption over a 40nm-class 16Gb NAND-based 256GB SSD. The controller also analyzes frequency of use and preferences of the user to automatically activate a low-power mode that can extend a notebook's battery life for an hour or more.Given the market positioning of the MacBook Air, the potential battery improvements and cost savings may be driving Apple's adoption of this technology more than the performance advantages.

Article Link: Next MacBook Air to Adopt Faster, More Power Efficient SSD? (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/07/04/next-macbook-air-to-adopt-faster-more-power-efficient-ssd/)



timoroso
Jul 4, 2011, 09:57 AM
I was planning to limit myself to the smallest capacity SSD and possibly upgrade later. This move would take away that possibility.

zedsdead
Jul 4, 2011, 09:58 AM
This could make me want to upgrade from my current model...interesting.

Hellhammer
Jul 4, 2011, 10:00 AM
It's 400Mbits/s, not bytes. The actual speed depends on the controller too.

EDIT: Hmm, Samsung's site is wrong then. ONFI's site claims 400MB/s which is what I remember as well (133Mb/s wouldn't be enough for even today's SSDs)

res1233
Jul 4, 2011, 10:02 AM
It's 400Mbits/s, not bytes. The actual speed depends on the controller too.

EDIT: Hmm, Samsung's site is wrong then. ONFI's site claims 400MB/s which is what I remember as well (133Mb/s wouldn't be enough for even today's SSDs)

No. There are SSDs which are capable of over 600 Megabytes per second for read speed, and 700 for write, so this is well within range for an affordable SSD.

blackburn
Jul 4, 2011, 10:04 AM
SSD soldered onto the motherboard hmm.
You trash your ssd with writes and that means that you also trashed your motherboard. Nice. Soldered ram maybe, soldered ssd nop.

arn
Jul 4, 2011, 10:05 AM
It's 400Mbits/s, not bytes. The actual speed depends on the controller too.

EDIT: Hmm, Samsung's site is wrong then. ONFI's site claims 400MB/s which is what I remember as well (133Mb/s wouldn't be enough for even today's SSDs)

No, I think you're right. It's confusing when dealing with these NAND parts that get put together in various ways.

I corrected the article.

arn

the vj
Jul 4, 2011, 10:05 AM
Whats actually the use/market for the MB Air?

I mean, is more expensive and less capable than the samller Mac Book.

johneaston
Jul 4, 2011, 10:06 AM
Come on!! Apple, my money is all yours. Just release the damn things!

Do smaller chips mean more memory could be put into the MBAs?

KnightWRX
Jul 4, 2011, 10:06 AM
will be soldered on base circuit directly.

Ah, another good reason to stick to the 2010 model. Intel 3000 HD and now this. :rolleyes:

Whats actually the use/market for the MB Air?

I mean, is more expensive and less capable than the samller Mac Book.

People who value portability (Size and weight) above a marginal increase in specs that doesn't matter ? My MBA has the same GPU as the Macbook, runs all my software and is much easier on the back.

res1233
Jul 4, 2011, 10:08 AM
SSD soldered onto the motherboard hmm.
You trash your ssd with writes and that means that you also trashed your motherboard. Nice. Soldered ram maybe, soldered ssd nop.

I think it's a safe bet that 99% of people who buy MBAs are not the type who would overburden their SSD with writes, especially once you consider wear leveling. My mom has had her MBA for about 5 months now, and I doubt she's used every sector on the thing even once yet. Many people are like that. Only us geeks are the types who might have written to every sector by now, for the most part.

blackburn
Jul 4, 2011, 10:13 AM
I think it's a safe bet that 99% of people who use buy MBAs are not the type who would overburden their SSD with writes, especially once you consider wear leveling. My mom has had her MBA for about 5 months now, and I doubt she's used every sector on the thing even once yet. Many people are like that. Only us geeks are the types who might have written to every sector by now, for the most part.

Yeah your right. Since most of the users of the mba will be either light users, and the mba is not that of a speed demon. If they could increase battery life it would be great and more useful to the 99% of the users.

I do avoid writes on my shiny ssd, but I do trash hdds with lots of use, specially laptop hdds. Bought 2 hdds one for me and one for my sister, mine lasted like 6 months, my sisters hdd still works (2 years and counting).

puma25uk
Jul 4, 2011, 10:15 AM
The sceptical in me says this is nothing to do with speed, but rather with limiting 3rd party SSD upgrades.
Custom hard-drive firmware on iMacs, now soldered SSD... Apple machines are fast becoming severely locked down, and turning computers into disposable units.

I love Apple but am getting royally pissed off with this artificial locking down, especially if I can't even reuse components like a screen.
If I can't afford a bigger spec machine right now, I can't upgrade in the future. Instead, I need to buy a new one :confused:
Unless I go MacPro which, let's be honest, hasn't received a lot of Apple's attention in the recent past...

djrod
Jul 4, 2011, 10:16 AM
Whats actually the use/market for the MB Air?

I mean, is more expensive and less capable than the samller Mac Book.

You should try one

localoid
Jul 4, 2011, 10:17 AM
Instead of a replaceable part, the new Flash chips would be soldered directly onto the MacBook Air's motherboard.

This will undoubtedly usher in an exciting new paradigm in planned obsolescence during the forthcoming post routine maintenance era!

LegendKillerUK
Jul 4, 2011, 10:18 AM
Intel 3000 HD and now this. :rolleyes:

I'll just continue playing TF2 smoothly while you roll your eyes.

Hellhammer
Jul 4, 2011, 10:18 AM
No. There are SSDs which are capable of over 600 Megabytes per second for read speed, and 700 for write, so this is well within range for an affordable SSD.

And that is exactly the issue. If it was bits, then we would barely be touching speeds of 150MB/s (most SSDs have eight NANDs and 16 dies. If each NAND provided up to 133Mb/s, that would be 1064Mb/s = 133MB/s).

EDIT: Looks like this Toggle DDR and ONFI aren't related at all, thus the confusion.

ugahairydawgs
Jul 4, 2011, 10:21 AM
Do we really want to move laptops to a point where they are completely unexpandable?

KiraDouji
Jul 4, 2011, 10:21 AM
I think it's a safe bet that 99% of people who buy MBAs are not the type who would overburden their SSD with writes, especially once you consider wear leveling. My mom has had her MBA for about 5 months now, and I doubt she's used every sector on the thing even once yet. Many people are like that. Only us geeks are the types who might have written to every sector by now, for the most part.

Frankly, 'us geeks' would likely be more inclined to give ourselves some room with this sort of thing and not buy something that's low spec for what we're doing lol. I know with my laptops I've come to put increasingly less and less the more I've used my iMac as my main computer.

:apple:

Eidorian
Jul 4, 2011, 10:21 AM
This will undoubtedly usher in an exciting new paradigm in planned obsolescence during the forthcoming post routine maintenance era!Why would anyone want to upgrade their computer? :rolleyes:

I'll just continue playing TF2 smoothly while you roll your eyes.Never play another game. At least you have plenty of people to play with.

peskaa
Jul 4, 2011, 10:24 AM
I think they just need to hurry up and release the 2011 models already!

That said, sticking the SSD onto the logic board is an interesting move. Personally, I'd accept it to get the battery gains, but then I can imagine some people being in uproar about the fact they can't upgrade in the future - however when you buy the MBA you can't touch the RAM, so the SSD is just a similar component.

For portability, speed and battery life I'd happily sacrifice being able to rip a laptop apart. If we're honest, how many MBA owners really change the SSD etc? 1%? Less than that?

jamesryanbell
Jul 4, 2011, 10:24 AM
I'll just continue playing TF2 smoothly while you roll your eyes.

Everyone else will be playing on something larger than a MB Air. The Air ideally should be a SECONDARY machine.

syan48306
Jul 4, 2011, 10:27 AM
I love Apple but am getting royally pissed off with this artificial locking down, especially if I can't even reuse components like a screen.
If I can't afford a bigger spec machine right now, I can't upgrade in the future. Instead, I need to buy a new one :confused:
Unless I go MacPro which, let's be honest, hasn't received a lot of Apple's attention in the recent past...

Here's something to consider. Macbooks have an insanely high resell value. Rather than complaining about computers being locked down and unable to upgrade, buy a macbook and use it for 2-3 years and then SELL it rather than upgrading. Then buy a newer generation system. You'll be getting a much faster system anyway.

Case and point. I had a 2000 dollar macbook pro from 2009 and I just sold that thing for 1300 on ebay. 3 years and a loss of only 700 dollars is almost a steal. Put in a couple hundred dollars and I'm picking up a baseline 2011 macbook pro 15.

How's that for upgrade?

res1233
Jul 4, 2011, 10:27 AM
Frankly, 'us geeks' would likely be more inclined to give ourselves some room with this sort of thing and not buy something that's low spec for what we're doing lol. I know with my laptops I've come to put increasingly less and less the more I've used my iMac as my main computer.

:apple:

True. Geeks love specs, which the MBA doesn't have much of. Some of us do appreciate the lightness though.

definitive
Jul 4, 2011, 10:32 AM
hm.. now i'm unsure if i want to get the next air, or wait for the ivy bridge mbp. i was hoping for some room to upgrade the storage through someone like owc, but if what the article states is true, then it might be impossible to do. also reading yesterday's thread in the air section about the poor screen performance compared to the mbp was a bit discouraging too.

Takeo
Jul 4, 2011, 10:32 AM
Simple math... better battery life will benefit 100% of users... upgradeable SSD will benefit .001% of users.

Battlefield Fan
Jul 4, 2011, 10:33 AM
You think this is for better performance and battery life? WRONG! Apple wants more control of their computers and would love to put the 3rd party blade SSD makers out of business.

DCJ001
Jul 4, 2011, 10:35 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)


Case and point. I had a 2000 dollar macbook pro from 2009 and I just sold that thing for 1300 on ebay. 3 years and a loss of only 700 dollars is almost a steal.

How's that for upgrade?

Actually, you had theMacBook Pro for two years, not three.

res1233
Jul 4, 2011, 10:36 AM
You think this is for better performance and battery life? WRONG! Apple wants more control of their computers and would love to put the 3rd party blade SSD makers out of business.

I doubt that's it. Apple has always valued battery life. That's why the worst battery life their products advertise is 7 hours, and even those products often get a lot more than that in real-world use. An MBP/MBA/iPad/whatever with a dead battery, is nothing more than a slab of metal and silicon, and Apple knows this. They do whatever they can to improve battery life, and always have, so I doubt this would be solely to mess with 3rd party SSD providers...

Also, most people never upgrade a thing in their computer once they get it. Even many of us geeks. MBAs are mainly used by light users, and they're even LESS likely to do so. I don't see this as being a problem at all for most users.

wazzle638
Jul 4, 2011, 10:37 AM
Does this drive need special drivers, for it's new features? If so, are there traces of this in Lion's GM? If there aren't, pity...........

Obi Wan Kenobi
Jul 4, 2011, 10:41 AM
Love the sound of better battery life. That matters a lot in an MBA.

:cool:

Obi Wan Kenobi
Jul 4, 2011, 10:42 AM
Hope this development is in time for the next release.

It seems quite late for this rumour to be leaking, if MBAs are supposed to be built / stocked ready for release (w Lion) in the next few weeks.
:(

puma25uk
Jul 4, 2011, 10:42 AM
Here's something to consider. Macbooks have an insanely high resell value. Rather than complaining about computers being locked down and unable to upgrade, buy a macbook and use it for 2-3 years and then SELL it rather than upgrading. Then buy a newer generation system. You'll be getting a much faster system anyway.

Case and point. I had a 2000 dollar macbook pro from 2009 and I just sold that thing for 1300 on ebay. 3 years and a loss of only 700 dollars is almost a steal. Put in a couple hundred dollars and I'm picking up a baseline 2011 macbook pro 15.

How's that for upgrade?
Funny, I have a 2008 MBP which is more than capable of handling what I want it to do. Cost me £1,400 and can now fetch around £400.00 on eBay. For the same £1,000, I'd rather have a 256GB SSD and money in my pocket, than a new MBP WITHOUT SSD, but faster CPU.

My point is, that in 3 years time, when the soldered SSD starts screwing up and your resell value drops like a stone, I'd rather pick up a new SSD (by which time prices will have dropped considerably) than having to get a whole new laptop.

So, how's that resell value with a fried, soldered, SSD? :rolleyes:

res1233
Jul 4, 2011, 10:45 AM
Hope this development is in time for the next release.

It seems quite late for this rumour to be leaking, if MBAs are supposed to be built / stocked ready for release (w Lion) in the next few weeks.
:(

Actually, many of the reliable rumors are only leaked right before the launch of a product as the shipments arrive in stores, so any rumor could be true whenever we hear about it. This sounds like one that would be true knowing how Apple works, but you never know. ;)

nizmoz
Jul 4, 2011, 10:45 AM
I was going to get a new MBA and now I am strongly reconsidering that option as now a MBP 15" is looking like a nice replacement. I have a ipad for my portability when I need it and if I need a power house the 15 is still portable.

cult hero
Jul 4, 2011, 10:47 AM
You think this is for better performance and battery life? WRONG! Apple wants more control of their computers and would love to put the 3rd party blade SSD makers out of business.

All... one of them?

The paranoia around here is just plain funny nowadays.

*LTD*
Jul 4, 2011, 10:50 AM
Instead of a replaceable part, the new Flash chips would be soldered directly onto the MacBook Air's motherboard.



All it needs now is to get touchscreen functionality, lose the hardware keyboard, get an on-screen keyboard, and slim down the OS.

Done.

;)

Littleman
Jul 4, 2011, 10:51 AM
This puts me (a definite 1st day buyer) out, if true.

Was going for the cheapest ssd (64), bearing with it for a year or so and then upgrading to something much (300) bigger myself. Unless the apple price of the upgrades are significantly cheaper this time, I am out :(

And I will be gutted. Truly gutted.

iRun26.2
Jul 4, 2011, 10:53 AM
This could make me want to upgrade from my current model...interesting.

I agree! It seems like every other week we hear rumors of new improvements that could come to future MBA releases. It is very exciting!

(All that's needed now is a backlit keyboard, and I will be in...) :)

RWinOR
Jul 4, 2011, 10:55 AM
Funny, I have a 2008 MBP which is more than capable of handling what I want it to do. Cost me £1,400 and can now fetch around £400.00 on eBay. For the same £1,000, I'd rather have a 256GB SSD and money in my pocket, than a new MBP WITHOUT SSD, but faster CPU.

My point is, that in 3 years time, when the soldered SSD starts screwing up and your resell value drops like a stone, I'd rather pick up a new SSD (by which time prices will have dropped considerably) than having to get a whole new laptop.

So, how's that resell value with a fried, soldered, SSD? :rolleyes:


I see a lot of these machines on Craig's list or e-bay in a few years. Buyer beware.

I loved the fact this years MBA had replaceable/expandable blades. Not sure how I feel about soldered memory yet. I guess in part it will depend on how this affects the price points and what options are available at time of purchase.

I enjoy longer battery life but, at some point drives do need changing. Even none geeks have drives fail, or fill up and need larger ones, etc. None geeks are typically horrible at disk management. My wife for instance knows how to create files, but deleting is another story. She just keeps filling and filling.

cvaldes
Jul 4, 2011, 10:56 AM
You think this is for better performance and battery life? WRONG! Apple wants more control of their computers and would love to put the 3rd party blade SSD makers out of business.
Most computer users do not upgrade the internals of their systems. A large percentage don't even upgrade the operating system.

iRun26.2
Jul 4, 2011, 11:00 AM
SSD soldered onto the motherboard hmm.
You trash your ssd with writes and that means that you also trashed your motherboard. Nice. Soldered ram maybe, soldered ssd nop.

If this makes the MBA smaller and lighter then I will be happy. I expect the SSD to be more reliable than spinning hard drive. I do not buy a MBA computer with the intention of upgrading it (nor I expect my SSD to fail any sooner than other system components).

jclardy
Jul 4, 2011, 11:01 AM
I was planning to limit myself to the smallest capacity SSD and possibly upgrade later. This move would take away that possibility.

While that is unfortunate, I would guess that 99% of current MBA users don't even know that they can upgrade the flash memory in the current gen.

And if this both saves space, adds battery life, and helps reduce cost I am all for that. Of course the savings probably won't be passed on to us...

MikhailT
Jul 4, 2011, 11:01 AM
I don't think the 2011 models will have the ONFI 3.0 NANDs as this report suggest. Apple needs millions of those NANDs ready by now and as far as I am aware, the ONFI 3.0 NANDs are just starting to exit the fabs. There isn't enough supply to make it a part of the 2011 models.

I think this is for the 2012 models or a silent update to 2011 models.

Hellhammer
Jul 4, 2011, 11:02 AM
All it needs now is to get touchscreen functionality, lose the hardware keyboard, get an on-screen keyboard, and slim down the OS.

Done.

;)

iPad already exists.

KPOM
Jul 4, 2011, 11:03 AM
This is a very interesting rumor. I'm guessing that this serves several purposes. First, people would be more likely to "buy up" the way they did with the 4GB update. Second, it could improve battery life, which is a significant consideration in this segment. Third, they need to find space for the Thunderbolt chip, so this might be how they did it.

We'll find out for sure when these are released. Hopefully all these rumors mean that it's coming this month.

toddybody
Jul 4, 2011, 11:05 AM
Expand-ability isnt my biggest concern, its replace-ability. SSBlade goes belly up, and folks are out of luck fast. Why cant they implement a user accessible blade that just slides out (ala RAM, PCI).

I appreciate aesthetics and all...but this is pushing Apple's integration obsession too far. Im looking forward to the ODD-less MBP with a user accessible SATA bay.

Bubba Satori
Jul 4, 2011, 11:08 AM
The sceptical in me says this is nothing to do with speed, but rather with limiting 3rd party SSD upgrades.
Custom hard-drive firmware on iMacs, now soldered SSD... Apple machines are fast becoming severely locked down, and turning computers into disposable units.

I love Apple but am getting royally pissed off with this artificial locking down, especially if I can't even reuse components like a screen.
If I can't afford a bigger spec machine right now, I can't upgrade in the future. Instead, I need to buy a new one :confused:
Unless I go MacPro which, let's be honest, hasn't received a lot of Apple's attention in the recent past...

Bingo.

Significant reduction of lifespan, decreases resale value almost
as much as the 8600 timebombs did and forces new model purchases
on a much shorter cycle.
Magic.:apple:

Obi Wan Kenobi
Jul 4, 2011, 11:09 AM
All it needs now is to get touchscreen functionality, lose the hardware keyboard, get an on-screen keyboard, and slim down the OS.

Done.

;)

Isn't that an iPad?

;)

Bubba Satori
Jul 4, 2011, 11:10 AM
Most computer users do not upgrade the internals of their systems. A large percentage don't even upgrade the operating system.

Source?

MikhailT
Jul 4, 2011, 11:16 AM
I'm not sure why people are complaining about Apple locking down the MBA.

In order for laptops like MBA to get thinner, everything has to be more integrated (or locked down) and the option to upgrade has to be eliminated in order to do this.

Apple isn't locking down the bigger laptops that can support upgradability, they're doing this for the ultra-thin laptops. The more they can solider onto the laptop, the more space they can remove.

You are not paying $1K for the option to upgrade, you're paying $1K for the best integrated laptop with the smallest weight and footprint.

stockscalper
Jul 4, 2011, 11:26 AM
It already flies. I guess Apple is trying to give it a little speed boost to try and make up for the slow crappy graphics it's going to have.

Monkeychemist
Jul 4, 2011, 11:26 AM
I'm not sure why people are complaining about Apple locking down the MBA.

In order for laptops like MBA to get thinner, everything has to be more integrated (or locked down) and the option to upgrade has to be eliminated in order to do this.

Apple isn't locking down the bigger laptops that can support upgradability, they're doing this for the ultra-thin laptops. The more they can solider onto the laptop, the more space they can remove.

You are not paying $1K for the option to upgrade, you're paying $1K for the best integrated laptop with the smallest weight and footprint.

I agree with you completely. I just don't understand why people freak out about not being able to upgrade computers. I mean 20 years ago it was the way to cheaply have a "current" computer for many year. In the present, technology moves so fast and improvements are so drastic that you really can't make upgrades on a computer to make it last years and years. People need to embrace the fact that we now have cheaper "disposable" computers. So instead of buying a $3000 machine that will be sluggish in 2 years, you spend $1000 every year and have blazing fast computers...

cvaldes
Jul 4, 2011, 11:27 AM
It already flies. I guess Apple is trying to give it a little speed boost to try and make up for the slow crappy graphics it's going to have.
Apple is probably more keen on better battery performance.

the vj
Jul 4, 2011, 11:28 AM
You should try one

Probably, I actually have but I do not know. I have a 17" MBP and is small enough.

I used to have 12" Powerbooks, 3 of them, because I used to work doing videos for live shows, I had a different application on each. Probably if I still in the same field I would have got 3 Mac Book Air.

cvaldes
Jul 4, 2011, 11:33 AM
Source?
Not difficult to find. Here's one:

http://www.conceivablytech.com/3227/business/66-of-all-windows-users-still-use-windows-xp

Eric-PTEK
Jul 4, 2011, 11:39 AM
Beyond gaming, some photo work, CAD, and some software development the Air is just about perfect for a business user.

I don't know who plays games on their laptops...my 1.86 can struggle a bit with Aperture, I only use it to dump off the camera until we're back home and maybe some light adjusting if we want to show someone something.

I'm what most people would refer to as a poweruser. We do software development and yes the Air is too light for that mostly because what we do is in Windows so by the time you virtualize, get all the app tools runnings its too slow.

Plus battery life is horrible when running a VM. Of course you could reboot into Windows.

I was extremely unhappy about their firmware deal with the iMac on the hard drives but then I started to think about it a bit more. If they are offering identical or faster speeds with a Thunderbolt external drive then why go through the trouble of upgrading the internal?

The MBA is highly proprietary and as someone else mentioned in this case it needs to be. They are trying to stuff everything in a small case and that cannot use off the shelf parts.

Plus you can expand with Thunderbolt peripherals, but of course carrying that is tough.

What matters to be is I leave the house, go see customers all day, work, and come home and the battery is still good.

With a bit more power/speed the MBA would be the perfect laptop for a lot of people.

bwillwall
Jul 4, 2011, 11:42 AM
Yea right, apple invented the SSD sticks I seriously doubt they are going to replace it with unupgradable ones! That would be incredibly stupid.

KillerTree
Jul 4, 2011, 11:42 AM
I'm not sure why people are complaining about Apple locking down the MBA.

In order for laptops like MBA to get thinner, everything has to be more integrated (or locked down) and the option to upgrade has to be eliminated in order to do this.

Apple isn't locking down the bigger laptops that can support upgradability, they're doing this for the ultra-thin laptops. The more they can solider onto the laptop, the more space they can remove.

You are not paying $1K for the option to upgrade, you're paying $1K for the best integrated laptop with the smallest weight and footprint.
Steve said all future laptops will be like the Air eventually

tom vilsack
Jul 4, 2011, 11:45 AM
as a owner of a older eee 701 with a soldered ssd...you don't want to go there.....what once was a nice zippy little netbook,is now a painfully slow brick....

im not saying the new air will be anything close to the poor lasting ssd the 7" eee's had...but over time???

i had planned on buying my first air...but this news has me standing back until we hear further info (true...and or performance degregation over time)

notjustjay
Jul 4, 2011, 11:47 AM
Personally, I'd accept it to get the battery gains, but then I can imagine some people being in uproar about the fact they can't upgrade in the future - however when you buy the MBA you can't touch the RAM, so the SSD is just a similar component.


I know lots of people are always in an uproar about upgradability, but I have to admit that when I look back upon 20 years of my own computing history, it has been very very rare that I actually upgrade any of the parts of any of my PCs or laptops. RAM and HD upgrades excluded (fair enough, this is a negative of the MB Air in particular).

In my very first home-built PC I installed a Celeron chip thinking that eventually I would upgrade to a more powerful chip... but by the time I was ready to do that, they had changed chipsets and slot/socket architectures completely, so I needed a new motherboard... which needed new RAM and a new video card to go with it. I pretty much just built a new PC instead.

I've owned multiple laptops from Dells to PowerBooks and MacBook Pros (and one iMac) and the only thing I ever did was upgrade/replace the RAM and hard drives.

For all the talk of non-replaceable laptop batteries, I never bought new batteries for any of my laptops (including my current 2007 MacBook Pro). I would usually end up selling and buying a whole new model before it was ever time to replace the battery.

Heilage
Jul 4, 2011, 11:52 AM
I'm not liking this. If something goes wrong, you need a new logic board. That'll cost all of you, especially US customers with such crappy consumer laws.

I'm all for making things more compact, but it's undoubtedly better to have some components separate, like the wireless card and the SSD.

Also, I can imagine all the fuzz occuring when people lose their data for pretty much any malfunction in their computers.

I don't think a soldered SSD will come to the 2011 Airs, but that's just a guess.

davie18
Jul 4, 2011, 11:54 AM
I was planning to limit myself to the smallest capacity SSD and possibly upgrade later. This move would take away that possibility.
Erm, is it even possible to upgrade it currently?

They don't actually use normal SSDs as they tale the flash memory out of them and attach them directly to the motherboard somehow, I'm not sure if they're soldered on or what but it must make it more complicated to upgrade.

Oletros
Jul 4, 2011, 11:54 AM
I think they just need to hurry up and release the 2011 models already!

That said, sticking the SSD onto the logic board is an interesting move. Personally, I'd accept it to get the battery gains, but then I can imagine some people being in uproar about the fact they can't upgrade in the future - however when you buy the MBA you can't touch the RAM, so the SSD is just a similar component.

For portability, speed and battery life I'd happily sacrifice being able to rip a laptop apart. If we're honest, how many MBA owners really change the SSD etc? 1%? Less than that?

But the gains in speed and battery life are not for being soldered to the motherboard

iZeeshan
Jul 4, 2011, 11:58 AM
I've read through this entire thread and I'm quite confused as to what this will really mean for the Macbook Air.

It's clearly getting mixed reviews and so far I've been set on getting the new Air but obviously, lots of people are thinking that this may be a negative advancement.

Does someone want to clearly outline the effects of this new change that maybe or may not be implemented.

zedsdead
Jul 4, 2011, 12:00 PM
I've read through this entire thread and I'm quite confused as to what this will really mean for the Macbook Air.

It's clearly getting mixed reviews and so far I've been set on getting the new Air but obviously, lots of people are thinking that this may be a negative advancement.

Does someone want to clearly outline the effects of this new change that maybe or may not be implemented.

Having the hard drive soldered to the board will not allow upgrades in the future, much like the ram is currently in the air. Third party hard drives also will not be able to be used. It forces people to pay for upgrades they may not need for a some time since they will never be able to upgrade it.

hotcocoa
Jul 4, 2011, 12:01 PM
The sceptical in me says this is nothing to do with speed, but rather with limiting 3rd party SSD upgrades.
Custom hard-drive firmware on iMacs, now soldered SSD... Apple machines are fast becoming severely locked down, and turning computers into disposable units.

I love Apple but am getting royally pissed off with this artificial locking down, especially if I can't even reuse components like a screen.
If I can't afford a bigger spec machine right now, I can't upgrade in the future. Instead, I need to buy a new one :confused:
Unless I go MacPro which, let's be honest, hasn't received a lot of Apple's attention in the recent past...

I really doubt they are doing this to limit 3rd party upgrades. My guess is they would do something like this to increase battery performance and to have room for other things like a Thunderbolt controller.

In other words they aren't doing it to limit 3rd party upgrades, but since they (as well as most consumers) don't care about 3rd party upgrades, nothing is stopping them.

OatmealRocks
Jul 4, 2011, 12:04 PM
This would make all the OCW SSD's obsolete. If it is the case, their advantage (monopoly?) on the MBA SSD will be over. I do wish their would be more than two 3rd party suppliers offering MBA SSDs as I am debating on upgrading myself or BTO.

OatmealRocks
Jul 4, 2011, 12:06 PM
I really doubt they are doing this to limit 3rd party upgrades.

Have you seen what the done to the latest iMac? One of the reasons, I think it is to limit any upgrades not from Apple. However to improve performance and specs are also the reasons.

Michael Scrip
Jul 4, 2011, 12:08 PM
I'm not liking this. If something goes wrong, you need a new logic board. That'll cost all of you, especially US customers with such crappy consumer laws.

I'm all for making things more compact, but it's undoubtedly better to have some components separate, like the wireless card and the SSD.

Also, I can imagine all the fuzz occuring when people lose their data for pretty much any malfunction in their computers.

I don't think a soldered SSD will come to the 2011 Airs, but that's just a guess.

Isn't that what warranties and AppleCare are for?

A spinning hard drive can certainly break too... losing all your data in the process...

You can help that by keeping good backups. That's good advice for any computer user.

Porco
Jul 4, 2011, 12:14 PM
Apple giveth and Apple taketh away. eth.

I was really looking forward to the new Airs, but this rumour dampens my enthusiasm somewhat. Being able to easily replace the internal storage should be a basic requirement of any computer - not being able to do so is just bad design, IMHO.

Of course it makes sense for Apple to try and sell more Applecare, more sealed unit designs that force people to spend Apple prices on upgrades, but it's sucky behaviour.

That said, as others have indicated this seems to all be part of the drive towards iOS devices and the mac being ever closer, presumably with an eventual goal of the two things merging completely (yuck).

Kenrik
Jul 4, 2011, 12:19 PM
Anyone who says Macbook Airs are for "light users" have never used a Macbook Air.

Now let me go back to editing my 1080p move in real time using Final Cut Pro X.

N00bs

trims
Jul 4, 2011, 12:19 PM
Isn't that what warranties and AppleCare are for?

A spinning hard drive can certainly break too... losing all your data in the process...

You can help that by keeping good backups. That's good advice for any computer user.

When your HDD breaks you replace your hard drive and put your backed up data back on your laptop.

Suppose your soldered on SSD breaks, just out of warranty, then what?

shurcooL
Jul 4, 2011, 12:19 PM
Why is it that the SSDs on iPhone aren't user replaceable either, but no one cares about that?

If Apple can find equally reliable and long lasting SSDs for MBAs, there's no reason not to solder them. No one (<5% of people) upgrades the current MBA SSDs, so it's only for reliability reasons.

In any case, this will probably lower the long term resell value of MacBooks, but it improves the experience for first-hand owners.

shurcooL
Jul 4, 2011, 12:21 PM
When your HDD breaks you replace your hard drive and put your backed up data back on your laptop.

Suppose your soldered on SSD breaks, just out of warranty, then what?
Suppose your {LCD screen, motherboard, power circuit board, Wifi board, Webcam, Microphone, power port, keyboard, touchpad} breaks, just out of warranty, then what?

cairbre
Jul 4, 2011, 12:22 PM
I think the MBA has come a long way when I got my 13' Core Duo MBP I looked at the air but it was to expensive and limiting so I went with the MBP.

If I were to up grade my MBP in a year or two then I really would look carefully at the Air. I really use my MBP as my secondary computer. I have an imac at work and a beast of a PC desktop upstairs to play games, have music on etc. and with iCloud I could have my music on all of my devices.

I am a gamer so I wont be abandoning windows any time soon but I have moved my work to the imac and am loving it. Apple has improved its gaming a lot but window is still the superior OS in this regard. (Runs for cover from the macrumors crowd picking up pitchfork!)

res1233
Jul 4, 2011, 12:22 PM
Anyone who says Macbook Airs are for "light users" have never used a Macbook Air.

Now let me go back to editing my 1080p move in real time using Final Cut Pro X.

N00bs

An MBA is certainly a capable machine, but it is in no way designed for high end users. I've used an MBA, but it would choke on a heavy workload. Limited RAM, slower CPU, and no Discreet GPU are just some of the limiting factors. It isn't marketed to people who need such things, and those people are not light users.

Jaro65
Jul 4, 2011, 12:24 PM
Love the sound of better battery life. That matters a lot in an MBA.

:cool:

Though I'm not sure how will the Sandy Bridge i5 and i7 CPUs compare in their power consumption to the C2D CPUs that are in MBA now? Will we be actually gaining any more battery life out of the new MBAs?

KnightWRX
Jul 4, 2011, 12:25 PM
An MBA is certainly a capable machine, but it is in no way designed for high end users. I've used an MBA, but it would choke on a heavy workload. Limited RAM, slower CPU, and no Discreet GPU are just some of the limiting factors. It isn't marketed to people who need such things, and those people are not light users.

Not all high end users have heavy workloads. Let's face it, awk and sed ran on machines back in the 80s, yet they work the black magic of Unix like no other software can.

Jaro65
Jul 4, 2011, 12:33 PM
Probably, I actually have but I do not know. I have a 17" MBP and is small enough.

I used to have 12" Powerbooks, 3 of them, because I used to work doing videos for live shows, I had a different application on each. Probably if I still in the same field I would have got 3 Mac Book Air.

You are either a very tall and powerful human being, or your mobility needs are simply different from a whole lot of us who jumped on the MBA bandwagon. I also have a 17" MBP, which was my main machine until I picked up a 13" MBA. The MBA is simply a joy to take along and use in various settings (sofa, bed, airplane, etc.) compared to my MBP. This is a totally different experience. While the MBA isn't as powerful as MBP, it is plenty powerful for the 95%+ of things I do. The MBP only gets turned on now and then.

Tampa Tom
Jul 4, 2011, 12:34 PM
... Apple machines are fast becoming severely locked down, and turning computers into disposable units.

I love Apple but am getting royally pissed off with this artificial locking down, especially if I can't even reuse components like a screen.
...

Old thinking (circa 2003) The computer must have user serviceable/replaceable parts.

New thinking (circa 2011) A computer is just like any other piece of consumer electronics (TV's, DVRs etc.) It is what it is and nothing is replaceable by the consumer because of the simple fact that 99.9% of the consumers have NO desire to do so.

The remaining .01% of the "complainers" are dinosaurs.

Heilage
Jul 4, 2011, 12:35 PM
Isn't that what warranties and AppleCare are for?

A spinning hard drive can certainly break too... losing all your data in the process...

You can help that by keeping good backups. That's good advice for any computer user.

For me, personally, it's an extremely minor issue. I do hourly backups and keep the really important stuff off site as well. Even if my apartment burns, and all my computers get melted to nothingness, I still wouldn't have lost anything important. Norwegian Consumer Law also gives me warranty repairs for five years after the purchase date, so I don't even need AppleCare.

But I work as an Apple Technician, and when I think of the troubles this would cause in regards to customer data, and how bad people are generally at taking backups and using backups in the proper way, I cringe.

FuNGi
Jul 4, 2011, 12:38 PM
I'm not liking this. If something goes wrong, you need a new logic board. That'll cost all of you, especially US customers with such crappy consumer laws.

I'm all for making things more compact, but it's undoubtedly better to have some components separate, like the wireless card and the SSD.

Also, I can imagine all the fuzz occuring when people lose their data for pretty much any malfunction in their computers.

I don't think a soldered SSD will come to the 2011 Airs, but that's just a guess.

Having the hard drive soldered to the board will not allow upgrades in the future, much like the ram is currently in the air. Third party hard drives also will not be able to be used. It forces people to pay for upgrades they may not need for a some time since they will never be able to upgrade it.

Yes but those 3rd party OCW upgrades cost an arm and .... an Air. $1,400.00 for the 480 GB blade is frickin' unbelievable. Actually the only thing holding me back from selling my original unibody MBP and going solo with my Air is the larger drive space needed. I prefer not using externals apart from backups. I've been patiently waiting for the blade SSD prices to come down and they just don't and apparently won't until a major production breakthrough.

I'm guessing Apple will sell the new MBA's with higher memory options at the same price points. Look for a 192 and 320GB upgradeable options on the new SB 11" and 13", respectively. Then we'll see how the "saved costs and space" are transferred to the consumer...if this rumor is real.

cmaier
Jul 4, 2011, 12:53 PM
Not all high end users have heavy workloads. Let's face it, awk and sed ran on machines back in the 80s, yet they work the black magic of Unix like no other software can.

Seems to run vi fine, too :-)

Chwisch87
Jul 4, 2011, 12:54 PM
I am not entirely sure that we are gonna see anything other than a processor update. We always get these rumors before a product launch. Remember when we got all excited on the news the macbook pro was rumored to be getting an SSD boot drive with hhd for storage?? exiting stuff. didn't happen.

TSE
Jul 4, 2011, 12:55 PM
If it's faster and extends battery life I am all for it.

wallysb01
Jul 4, 2011, 01:05 PM
If this rumor is true, it will certainly force me away from the MBA.

I'm considering buying either a 15" MBP or 13" MBA and was waiting on this refresh for the MBA to make my choice. One thing I had mostly decided on was going for the bottom hard drive option, intending to upgrade once SSD price in the 256GB+ range dropped significantly. Its either that or wait for a reasonably priced TB capable external SSD, which I'm less than excited about...

BeSweeet
Jul 4, 2011, 01:09 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

400Mbps? I think they mean 400MBps.

KillerTree
Jul 4, 2011, 01:12 PM
Can you even replace the current Airs SSD?

peskaa
Jul 4, 2011, 01:15 PM
Can you even replace the current Airs SSD?

Yes.

swingerofbirch
Jul 4, 2011, 01:15 PM
For those saying it's problematic that you could wear out the SSD by writing to it too much, is that more of an issue with SSDs than with HDDs, and is it still an issue if you have the new TRIM feature in Lion enabled? What does it mean in practical terms--you have to be wary of how much you store? It seems like iPods, iPhones, iPads also use flash memory and people don't seem to worry too much about wearing out the flash memory. Is there a difference in the type of flash memory they use?

Obi Wan Kenobi
Jul 4, 2011, 01:20 PM
Though I'm not sure how will the Sandy Bridge i5 and i7 CPUs compare in their power consumption to the C2D CPUs that are in MBA now? Will we be actually gaining any more battery life out of the new MBAs?

I've read in other MBA threads that the SB CPUs also have improved power consumption.

Arcadie
Jul 4, 2011, 01:21 PM
HDD's are measured in bytes not bits. generally only network speeds are measured in bits. Its alot more appealing to sell some one 16 megabits instead of 2megabytes per second.

shurcooL
Jul 4, 2011, 01:31 PM
For those saying it's problematic that you could wear out the SSD by writing to it too much, is that more of an issue with SSDs than with HDDs, and is it still an issue if you have the new TRIM feature in Lion enabled? What does it mean in practical terms--you have to be wary of how much you store? It seems like iPods, iPhones, iPads also use flash memory and people don't seem to worry too much about wearing out the flash memory. Is there a difference in the type of flash memory they use?
In practical terms, don't worry about it for SSDs made in 2011 and later. It used to be a bigger issue in the earlier days, and even then it was more theoretical than actual danger.

Just use your SSD the way you normally would and it'll last you way longer than the laptop itself.

shurcooL
Jul 4, 2011, 01:32 PM
HDD's are measured in bytes not bits. generally only network speeds are measured in bits. Its alot more appealing to sell some one 16 megabits instead of 2megabytes per second.
How is 16 megabits/sec more appealing than 2 megabytes/sec?
Is 2048 kilabytes/sec more appealing than 16 megabits/sec then?

SPEEDwithJJ
Jul 4, 2011, 01:34 PM
When your HDD breaks you replace your hard drive and put your backed up data back on your laptop.

Suppose your soldered on SSD breaks, just out of warranty, then what?

Suppose your {LCD screen, motherboard, power circuit board, Wifi board, Webcam, Microphone, power port, keyboard, touchpad} breaks, just out of warranty, then what?

Then just buy a new MacBook Air or Pro (whichever one catches your eye)? :confused: :p

cvaldes
Jul 4, 2011, 01:37 PM
In practical terms, don't worry about it for SSDs made in 2011 and later. It used to be a bigger issue in the earlier days, and even then it was more theoretical than actual danger.

Just use your SSD the way you normally would and it'll last you way longer than the laptop itself.
Yes, today's SSDs based on MLC NAND flash have 1-2 million hour MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures). You really don't need to worry much these days.

Incidentally, that's about the same MTBF as a comparable old-fashioned magnetic hard disk drive.

Bregalad
Jul 4, 2011, 01:42 PM
Here's something to consider. Macbooks have an insanely high resell value. Rather than complaining about computers being locked down and unable to upgrade, buy a macbook and use it for 2-3 years and then SELL it rather than upgrading. Then buy a newer generation system. You'll be getting a much faster system anyway.

Case and point. I had a 2000 dollar macbook pro from 2009 and I just sold that thing for 1300 on ebay. 3 years and a loss of only 700 dollars is almost a steal. Put in a couple hundred dollars and I'm picking up a baseline 2011 macbook pro 15.

How's that for upgrade?

The only reason you can sell a used MBP for 65% of its original price is the ease of replacing the old hard drive with a new one.
If it was impossible to replace the internal drive because it was soldered to the motherboard you'd be hard pressed to get 25% of the original price after 3 years.
So your strategy becomes vastly more expensive if Apple solders the SSD to the motherboard.

notjustjay
Jul 4, 2011, 01:45 PM
When your HDD breaks you replace your hard drive and put your backed up data back on your laptop.

Suppose your soldered on SSD breaks, just out of warranty, then what?

Suppose your {LCD screen, motherboard, power circuit board, Wifi board, Webcam, Microphone, power port, keyboard, touchpad} breaks, just out of warranty, then what?

Well, the difference is that if my motherboard breaks I can say "Oh well, I guess it's time to migrate everything to a new machine", where if the SSD breaks I say "Oh crap, there go all my files."

Better make good backups of your data.

Bregalad
Jul 4, 2011, 01:52 PM
In practical terms, don't worry about it for SSDs made in 2011 and later. It used to be a bigger issue in the earlier days, and even then it was more theoretical than actual danger.

Just use your SSD the way you normally would and it'll last you way longer than the laptop itself.

I'm happy to hear the MTBF for modern SSDs is much better than it was in the past.

Even so I'd be very reluctant to buy any computer, especially a notebook, with an internal drive that couldn't be replaced. Drives (magnetic disk and SSD) are the only part of your computer guaranteed to fail eventually.

Over the past 20 years I've owned a lot of Macs and a few PCs. I've had more hard drive failures than all other components put together.

champ01
Jul 4, 2011, 01:54 PM
Apple isn't locking down the bigger laptops that can support upgradability, they're doing this for the ultra-thin laptops.

Apple is doing everything you say it doesn't do.
Can you replace the battery on a MBP? ;)

Believe me when I say that Apple wanted the MBP gone yesterday and replace them by these Airs as soon as that is possible.
Its great for most users but its downgrading the value of your machine faster by the months to come than previous models did.

Obi Wan Kenobi
Jul 4, 2011, 01:55 PM
Old thinking (circa 2003) The computer must have user serviceable/replaceable parts.

New thinking (circa 2011) A computer is just like any other piece of consumer electronics (TV's, DVRs etc.) It is what it is and nothing is replaceable by the consumer because of the simple fact that 99.9% of the consumers have NO desire to do so.

The remaining .01% of the "complainers" are dinosaurs.

I agree. I don't know anyone that's upgraded anything on their MBs (Pro, Air or otherwise) after their initial purchase.

I would guess that because by the time parts wear out, there are newer faster models, and the tech savvy people get newer faster models.

For me, I don't expect to upgrade a portable computer. I don't expect high-end specs - that's a trade-off I know I am making. I don't expect it to last forever - the more I drag it around places, the more likely it is it will be damaged in transit. My current MB has survived incredibly well given the number of bumps, bangs and drops it has suffered. An 11 inch MBA will be even more portable and will be taken to even more places (and so I expect it will experience even more bumps and bangs). Soldered parts make for greater durability to my mind.
:cool:

cheesymogul
Jul 4, 2011, 02:01 PM
Old thinking (circa 2003) The computer must have user serviceable/replaceable parts.

New thinking (circa 2011) A computer is just like any other piece of consumer electronics (TV's, DVRs etc.) It is what it is and nothing is replaceable by the consumer because of the simple fact that 99.9% of the consumers have NO desire to do so.

The remaining .01% of the "complainers" are dinosaurs.

LOL!
Aren't we standing at the doorsteps of an imminent Great Depression 2.0?
From circa 2013 on your "new thinking" will look incredibly stupid, outdated and shortsighted...
Therefore real futurists and visionaries no longer buy any products that can't be fixed!

*LTD*
Jul 4, 2011, 02:02 PM
Seems the future of Apple notebooks might be built around the MacBook Air design, or at least take more pages out of the MBA play book.

Apple's really pushing the Air.

http://www.apple.com/macbookair/

"The Next Generation of MacBooks."

Indeed.

UCF Sam
Jul 4, 2011, 02:02 PM
Would love this... I was thinking about getting a 13 inch pro and adding an SSD because the current generation of sanforce 3 SSDs are so much faster that whats available in the Air. A 400MB/s SSD in the Air would put it back up there with the latest in SSD technology. As long as the technology is more reliable than current MLC SSDs, I'd fine with it being on the motherboard. Also, limited space doesn't bother me as I keep all of my large data (movies/music) on external drives. I was fine with a 32GB Vertex primary drive for years, 64GB would be more than enough for OS/Applications.

Cheffy Dave
Jul 4, 2011, 02:17 PM
This puts me (a definite 1st day buyer) out, if true.

Was going for the cheapest ssd (64), bearing with it for a year or so and then upgrading to something much (300) bigger myself. Unless the apple price of the upgrades are significantly cheaper this time, I am out :(

And I will be gutted. Truly gutted.

Buy a refurb NOW, that's what I have been doing, every 4/64 11" MBA I can get :eek:

davie18
Jul 4, 2011, 02:22 PM
Seems the future of Apple notebooks might be built around the MacBook Air design, or at least take more pages out of the MBA play book.

Apple's really pushing the Air.

http://www.apple.com/macbookair/

"The Next Generation of MacBooks."

Indeed.
Yeah, maybe the MBP is coming to the end of its life and it will be replaced with a "Macbook Air Pro" or something similar.

xlii
Jul 4, 2011, 02:33 PM
Here's something to consider. Macbooks have an insanely high resell value. Rather than complaining about computers being locked down and unable to upgrade, buy a macbook and use it for 2-3 years and then SELL it rather than upgrading. Then buy a newer generation system. You'll be getting a much faster system anyway.

Case and point. I had a 2000 dollar macbook pro from 2009 and I just sold that thing for 1300 on ebay. 3 years and a loss of only 700 dollars is almost a steal. Put in a couple hundred dollars and I'm picking up a baseline 2011 macbook pro 15.

How's that for upgrade?

Mid 2009 to mid 2011 is only 2 years for 700 dollars.

LoganT
Jul 4, 2011, 02:42 PM
Aren't the SSDS already soldered onto the motherboard? Didn't they start doing this in the 2010 redesign of the Macbook Air?

MacsRgr8
Jul 4, 2011, 02:45 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Yep. Upgradability is a thing of the past. TBO, I have owned a couple of PowerBooks and MBP, and have never had the need to upgrade.
I have a friend's MBA 11' at home now, and having used it a couple of hours my 15" MPB Core i5 seems such a big fat piece of kit.
Woul love to own a MBA, highly anticipating this new model, alongside the Mac Pro.

Obi Wan Kenobi
Jul 4, 2011, 02:51 PM
every 4/64

Please explain?
:confused:

johneaston
Jul 4, 2011, 02:56 PM
Please explain?
:confused:

I don't know much about computers, but I'm guessing he means 4 [GB RAM]/64 [GB SSD configuration].

Not hard.

3bs
Jul 4, 2011, 03:00 PM
I doubt that's it. Apple has always valued battery life. That's why the worst battery life their products advertise is 7 hours, and even those products often get a lot more than that in real-world use. An MBP/MBA/iPad/whatever with a dead battery, is nothing more than a slab of metal and silicon, and Apple knows this. They do whatever they can to improve battery life, and always have, so I doubt this would be solely to mess with 3rd party SSD providers...

Also, most people never upgrade a thing in their computer once they get it. Even many of us geeks. MBAs are mainly used by light users, and they're even LESS likely to do so. I don't see this as being a problem at all for most users.

What you're saying about the worst battery having a life of 7 hours is not true.. The 11'' air is 5 hours

locust76
Jul 4, 2011, 03:04 PM
Do we really want to move laptops to a point where they are completely unexpandable?

If they are expendable, then they don't need to be expandable. The MBA's price dropped so sharply with the recent versions, they might become expendable soon...

Bye Bye Baby
Jul 4, 2011, 03:09 PM
Yes- please hurry up apple and release these babies.

And please don't screw up the release.

MrXiro
Jul 4, 2011, 03:11 PM
Netbook= disposal computer.
Macbook Air = redefining the netbook.
Nothing wrong with it but calling a spade a spade.

locust76
Jul 4, 2011, 03:13 PM
Aren't the SSDS already soldered onto the motherboard? Didn't they start doing this in the 2010 redesign of the Macbook Air?

No

Wild-Bill
Jul 4, 2011, 03:13 PM
I don't care if Apple puts an SSD in there with "ludicrous speed". If there is no backlit keyboard I'll be keeping my $$$$.


Backlit-keyboard or BUST!

kingtj
Jul 4, 2011, 03:20 PM
My opinion is no, not really ... except that's not really a fair question.
What you should be asking is if we really want to accept ultra-thin/portable laptops that aren't expandable?

Not that long ago, people basically had to settle for laptops that were huge, heavy "bricks" if they wanted ANY hope of having a system with enough performance to rival a desktop machine. Now, things have come a long way (with Apple acting as one of the leaders in the push for a portable to really be as portable as possible).

Where we're at right now, you can either accept something with the thickness and size of, say, a Macbook Pro, and still be able to put standard memory sticks or hard drives in it --- or you can ask to go thinner and lighter than that, and reach the point where those items get proprietary and more integrated.

There's a market for both types, really. I like what they've done with the Air, except I think they need to make it a little more clear to new buyers that it's NOT upgradable. I bought my wife one, recently, and she loves it for web surfing, remote access into other machines to do phone support, etc. etc. But I didn't even realize, initially, that I wasn't going to be able to upgrade its RAM later. The 2GB built in is sufficient, but I would have really preferred it have 4GB.

It seems clear to me that if you purchase the Air, you have to consider it a "disposable" unit that you buy the 3 year AppleCare warranty on, and plan on getting rid of after that time period elapses. (Not that huge a deal when you consider how many people upgrade a portable in 3 years' time anyway.)


Do we really want to move laptops to a point where they are completely unexpandable?

flottenheimer
Jul 4, 2011, 03:36 PM
Really looking forward to see speed tests of the new Airs.
Hardwired SSDs or not, I'm ready to add to basket (it didn't prevent me from buying an iPad either).

res1233
Jul 4, 2011, 03:50 PM
What you're saying about the worst battery having a life of 7 hours is not true.. The 11'' air is 5 hours

Right, forgot about that. That's the one product that has that battery life, the rest are 7 hours or greater. 10 hours in some cases. However, I believe even the 11'' MBA should get more than 5 hours in real world situations. Apple seems to have been extremely strict with their new method for battery testing.

iRobby
Jul 4, 2011, 04:04 PM
I agree. I don't know anyone that's upgraded anything on their MBs (Pro, Air or otherwise) after their initial purchase.

I would guess that because by the time parts wear out, there are newer faster models, and the tech savvy people get newer faster models.

For me, I don't expect to upgrade a portable computer. I don't expect high-end specs - that's a trade-off I know I am making. I don't expect it to last forever - the more I drag it around places, the more likely it is it will be damaged in transit. My current MB has survived incredibly well given the number of bumps, bangs and drops it has suffered. An 11 inch MBA will be even more portable and will be taken to even more places (and so I expect it will experience even more bumps and bangs). Soldered parts make for greater durability to my mind.
:cool:

exactly that is why TV Repairmen and shops are out of business it costs the same to repair or upgrade as to get brand new these days.

meaty
Jul 4, 2011, 04:06 PM
is this going to happen to the ones releasing soon? if so im just going to get an air now

res1233
Jul 4, 2011, 04:08 PM
exactly that is why TV Repairmen and shops are out of business it costs the same to repair or upgrade as to get brand new these days.

Especially with the amount of time computers tend to last nowadays. You can easily get a computer, and have it still working 5 years later, even a PC, although obviously that varies tremendously. Many people just keep a backup of their files, and if the computer dies, get Apple or whoever to put their files back on a brand new computer, and keep going. Computer repair rarely makes sense on a 5 year old computer.

MacSince1990
Jul 4, 2011, 04:10 PM
SSD soldered onto the motherboard hmm.
You trash your ssd with writes and that means that you also trashed your motherboard. Nice. Soldered ram maybe, soldered ssd nop.

Lol... that shouldn't be a problem with TRIMing, which I'm sure this supports.

The real worry is being limited to a 256 GB boot drive, but whatever, the MBA was never expandable in the first place; by the time 256 GB is a problem (external HDDs are always possible), it'll be too slow to bother with anyway.

MasterHowl
Jul 4, 2011, 04:16 PM
I can picture it... five years from now, we'll have 5 TB solid state drives as standard on any Mac :P

trims
Jul 4, 2011, 04:18 PM
When your HDD breaks you replace your hard drive and put your backed up data back on your laptop.

Suppose your soldered on SSD breaks, just out of warranty, then what?

Suppose your {LCD screen, motherboard, power circuit board, Wifi board, Webcam, Microphone, power port, keyboard, touchpad} breaks, just out of warranty, then what?

Assuming the data is backed up, I guess my anxiety is cost. A screen or keyboard (or HDD) is going to cost less to swap out than a motherboard with 4GB RAM and 256GB of SSD chips soldered on to it. Even in two years time after the prices have dropped.

OTOH a 256GB SSD blade would be a relatively cheap and simple fix (or indeed upgrade).

res1233
Jul 4, 2011, 04:21 PM
I can picture it... five years from now, we'll have 5 TB solid state drives as standard on any Mac :P

It seems that storage size is growing far faster than storage requirements for apps. In a five years, I imagine HDDs will be niche products. Most people are fine wtih 256GB SSDs. My '08 aluminum macbook came with that much and I've never even come close to running out of storage. All it takes is a little cleanup every now and then.

ScottishDuck
Jul 4, 2011, 04:22 PM
For those saying this allows them to make it thinner, it can't get any thinner unless they were to remove all the ports, because that is currently the only thing that keeps it "thick".

Secondly about SSD failures. Average SSD has a expected life of about 50 years.

bbbb4b
Jul 4, 2011, 04:31 PM
True. Geeks love specs, which the MBA doesn't have much of. Some of us do appreciate the lightness though.

But a true geek loves performance over "specs". That's where the MA excels.

flynz4
Jul 4, 2011, 04:31 PM
is this going to happen to the ones releasing soon? if so im just going to get an air now
I suspect that it will not be in the 2011 MBA, but there is no way to know for sure. It would be more likely in the 2012 MBA.

Personally, I would not mind the SSD soldered down, and would actually prefer it. One fewer connector is one fewer failure point. For those who want upgradability... you always have the option of a full size machine. Personally, I value the small size and light weight of an MBA over any other laptop feature. I have no desire to ever own a full size laptop again and I decommissioned both of our 15" MBPs last year. I personally replace my laptop annually, and waterfall my previous machines through my family. After year 3 (4 worst case), it is generally EOL'd, and AppleCare will keep it under warranty for its useful life. In the case I want to keep it for a 4th year... I wouldn't break a sweat having to replace it a year earlier than planned... it's just not a big deal by then.

As far as loss of data... the most basic premise of my computing environment is to never lose data if any or even all all of my computers were destroyed. If you worry about losing data if your computer fails, then my recommendation would be to re-evaluate your compute strategy. All of my computers are all doubly backed up -- every hour wirelessly to a Time Capsule, and also every 15 minutes (every 3 minutes on my iMacs) to the cloud (Crashplan+). With my heavy use of Dropbox (and eventually iCloud), then my data is backed up in even more locations. I never rely on my internal HDD or SSD as the sole storage.

/Jim

TorontoPolar
Jul 4, 2011, 04:36 PM
For those saying this allows them to make it thinner, it can't get any thinner unless they were to remove all the ports, because that is currently the only thing that keeps it "thick".

Secondly about SSD failures. Average SSD has a expected life of about 50 years.

I'm looking to replace my 5-year-old 15" MacBook Pro. I have no use for an optical drive, but I do like my 15" screen. What are the chances of something between the Pro and the Air with a 15" screen but no optical drive so it can be as thin and nearly as light as the 13?

kockgunner
Jul 4, 2011, 04:37 PM
Whats actually the use/market for the MB Air?

I mean, is more expensive and less capable than the samller Mac Book.

I thought the Air was going to be a niche product, but last time I checked the Air is selling very well.

I bought a Macbook Pro 15" for university so I would be prepared no matter what I do. But now that I narrowed down my career path just a bit more, the Air is starting to look very interesting. I like to walk home a lot after work as my exercise and saving bus fare so the Air would be much easier on the back and is enough for web development purposes.

satkin2
Jul 4, 2011, 04:44 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

It would be a good business move for Apple. When buying a iPhone or iPad, you choose a size and that's what you get, no room for expansion etc; it's only because we've been able to upgrade our computers in the past that we expect this behaviour, but computers are becoming more of a commodity than they were. Your average consumer would likely never think of swapping a hard drive. If it breaks you get a new one, just like if my iPhone breaks.

If this could mean an increase in the size of the SSD then it could make the Airs a realistic option fora wider audience.

flynz4
Jul 4, 2011, 04:46 PM
Whats actually the use/market for the MB Air?

I mean, is more expensive and less capable than the samller Mac Book.

Isn't choice wonderful? If you don't value the benefits of the MBA... you have many other choices for the benefits of a full sized machine.

Personally... it doesn't matter how much less expensive it is to buy a MBP vs a MBA. I have no desire to ever own anything as big, heavy and bulky as a MBP... and will chose the MBA. That is what I value.

/Jim

couto27
Jul 4, 2011, 04:47 PM
if this is true, will be the second time im buying a apple care.

next step is to get soldered tools for electronics and read some guides to learn how to use them.:)

LuckyLuke150
Jul 4, 2011, 04:49 PM
I'm using my MBA (late 2008 128GB SSD) a lot and I really love its form factor, since I carry it almost every day to campus. The only thing I'd like to change is its storage capacity, since 128GB is by far not enough, which is why I rely on 2.5 external HDDs, which is cheaper then a new SSD as I don't need that much data with me all the time.
If Apple manages to squeeze in 512GB for (hopefully) less then 1500€, then I'd consider buying the 2012 revision, but only if they reintroduce backlit keyboard, because this is an essential feature of my MBA, and not including it in the redesign was a real Dealbreaker...:(
Let's hope Apple adds this feature, which would make the pricetag much less a headache.

LuckyLuke

iZeeshan
Jul 4, 2011, 05:13 PM
I see that it is mostly getting negative reviews because people are saying they can't upgrade. I'm not too worried about that, but what other cons are there?

Some people said something about resale value and whatnot - what's the deal with that? I really want the new Air and I guess after this news I'm pretty skeptical about getting such an expensive machine that may not be as well rated as it's previous models.

I guess it's better to just hope that it won't appear on the 2011 Models or is it actually useful for an average user like myself?

res1233
Jul 4, 2011, 05:25 PM
I'm using my MBA (late 2008 128GB SSD) a lot and I really love its form factor, since I carry it almost every day to campus. The only thing I'd like to change is its storage capacity, since 128GB is by far not enough, which is why I rely on 2.5 external HDDs, which is cheaper then a new SSD as I don't need that much data with me all the time.
If Apple manages to squeeze in 512GB for (hopefully) less then 1500€, then I'd consider buying the 2012 revision, but only if they reintroduce backlit keyboard, because this is an essential feature of my MBA, and not including it in the redesign was a real Dealbreaker...:(
Let's hope Apple adds this feature, which would make the pricetag much less a headache.

LuckyLuke

If they can save enough energy overall, they could afford to add that in. The new MBA will be quite a bit different internally if most of the assumed specs come true: iX/Intel Graphics, Thunderbolt, and now this SSD. The issue is whether or not that would require added thickness, which it might, and would probably be something Apple wouldn't want to do.

maclaptop
Jul 4, 2011, 05:33 PM
This could make me want to upgrade from my current model...interesting.
Heck I've already caved into the temptation.

And even though I have followed this new model extremely closely, knowing it will be good, it's not going to a huge jump up from my current new MBA, I'm still going to buy one.

I will however, wait until it's been out about 90 days just to allow them to resolve any bugs that pop up once the public put them to the test.

Besides as I understand it, Apple needs the money... ha..ha.ha..ha..

Translated: I'm such a Mac-Laptop-Addict-It's-Scary... :eek:

iToys? Not so much.

kiljoy616
Jul 4, 2011, 05:33 PM
The really funny thing about this article is that for all the nasty patent legal speak Apple and Samsung are massively in love and full of sexual energy. :D

Love in the air, spring is coming, and Apple likes picking those nice low hanging fruits we call Samsung. :rolleyes:

islanders
Jul 4, 2011, 05:37 PM
Having the RAM and SSD is the compromise for the ultra portable Air.

Lets hope the MBP remains upgradable and maintainable. it would be nice if the Pros were even more designed even more future proof so that the graphics and other parts could be upgraded.

If the future is a disposable computer the Mac community wouldn't have much to talk about and it would be easier to just get a PC and install the anti virus.

kiljoy616
Jul 4, 2011, 05:46 PM
Do we really want to move laptops to a point where they are completely unexpandable?

Yes :p, here is why, these are not laptops, they just tend to cost as much. I don't consider the MBA a real laptop when it weights almost as little as an ipad mostly the 11 inch. I sure runs like a macbook pro but...

I like this idea because to me there is no after market selling point here. sure for the fangirls who have to have a new laptop every year I can see that, but for people like me who will hold on to their apple product for as long as it works which when it comes to my wife macbook white is now 5 years and no work done on it. No she does not want a new one because it still runs fast and smooth for her business needs.

If my laptop makes it to 5 plus years it has paid for it self, since I write my hardware off the taxes. I can see people who want the latest and greatest but for me I tend to keep the latest and greats for a whole long time and so do a lot of people.

No iphone 5 for me don't need it till maybe when iphone 6 or 7 comes out.

Ipad 2 same thing, unless retina is so much better on the ipad that I can't live without it, eyesight problems would dictate it but I figure I will get the ipad 4 when it comes out in 2 years. Again only fangirls think apple is making stuff that become obsolete so fast they are not, now Android market is another story.

montealto
Jul 4, 2011, 05:58 PM
I've been searching the forums and threads and I can't find anything that gives indicating of the various hard drive capacities the new macbook air might have, any ideas?

bchreng
Jul 4, 2011, 05:58 PM
I'll just continue playing TF2 smoothly while you roll your eyes.

I used to have this one friend who had a horrible definition of 'smooth' :rolleyes:

G4er?
Jul 4, 2011, 06:04 PM
Maximizing battery life. :rolleyes:

If Apple built cars they would make it where the wheels and tires didn't come off claiming that the wheels and tires were designed that way for maximum miles per gallon.
After the original tires wear out you have to either throw the car out or send it to Apple to get new tires put on it.

islanders
Jul 4, 2011, 06:14 PM
Yes :p, here is why, these are not laptops, they just tend to cost as much. I don't consider the MBA a real laptop when it weights almost as little as an ipad mostly the 11 inch. I sure runs like a macbook pro but...

I like this idea because to me there is no after market selling point here. sure for the fangirls who have to have a new laptop every year I can see that, but for people like me who will hold on to their apple product for as long as it works which when it comes to my wife macbook white is now 5 years and no work done on it. No she does not want a new one because it still runs fast and smooth for her business needs.

If my laptop makes it to 5 plus years it has paid for it self, since I write my hardware off the taxes. I can see people who want the latest and greatest but for me I tend to keep the latest and greats for a whole long time and so do a lot of people.

No iphone 5 for me don't need it till maybe when iphone 6 or 7 comes out.

Ipad 2 same thing, unless retina is so much better on the ipad that I can't live without it, eyesight problems would dictate it but I figure I will get the ipad 4 when it comes out in 2 years. Again only fangirls think apple is making stuff that become obsolete so fast they are not, now Android market is another story.

If you have to send the computer back to Apple to replace the battery, RAM, SSD, HDD etc there is less of an incentive to keep it more than a few years.

Have you not replaced the battery in that 5 year old mac book?

Sorry, couldn't resist jumping in :p

Thex1138
Jul 4, 2011, 06:17 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

iFixedit

4look4rd
Jul 4, 2011, 06:18 PM
Especially with the amount of time computers tend to last nowadays. You can easily get a computer, and have it still working 5 years later, even a PC.

Sorry for being completely off topic but I feel like I have to add this to the discussion.

I do not buy into the idea that mac's last longer than PCs. My mid-2007 iMac is slowing down to a crawl (I use alot of large PDCs for my hobbies) since I haven't upgraded it at all (other than a new harddrive since my last one died). Of course a 500 dollars PC is not gonna last as long as the cheapest mac out there but if they are both equally priced and equally maintained/taken care of they will last just as long.

Now this leads me to my biggest problem with the macbook air. My iMac's main problem is the lack of RAM (only 1GB), but I know that I can readily upgrade that for a marginal cost (just haven't done so because this is mostly a "fun computer" with casual games, pictures, movies, and internet). But I just cannot see a macbook air being functional without these little upgrades for more than a year or two.

In my humble opinion Apple should invest a lot on the Mac App Store and use a similar iPad strategy for the Macbook Air. Sell it at a loss or with a small profit margin, but make up for the loss in revenue by selling services and apps.

Flames and hatred aside, I believe that Apple will manage to create what google has been trying to do with their Chrome Book line. The Macbook Air has the potential to become an outstanding computer with heavy cloud integration, but yet it should still be able to hold on its own when internet is not available or while doing some moderate computing (basic photoshop, aparture, iLife suite, office.... at the same time).

With that being said, I will definitely be getting an Air once I see that the specs are reasonable enough for it to survive for at least 4 years. In my view this means 4GB of RAM (without apple's extortion fee), a moderately fast processor (i3 or i5-low voltage versions) and a graphics card capable of running 2 year-old games on high settings (I use games mostly as benchmarks).

Thex1138
Jul 4, 2011, 06:19 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

...let's see MJ's soldering skills...

2IS
Jul 4, 2011, 06:28 PM
No, I think you're right. It's confusing when dealing with these NAND parts that get put together in various ways.

I corrected the article.

arn

I gaurantee you it's NOT bits. 400 megaBITS is only 50 megaBYTES which is achieved by mechanical drives easily enough.

iRun26.2
Jul 4, 2011, 06:39 PM
if this is true, will be the second time im buying a apple care.

next step is to get soldered tools for electronics and read some guides to learn how to use them.:)

I hope you are just joking. Most likely the SSD chips are BGA (Ball Grid Array) parts that are only solderable by machine.

shurcooL
Jul 4, 2011, 06:52 PM
This is the Air you're talking about. Apple is trying to make it as thin and light as possible, while also being fast and long battery lasting. Integrated SSDs take up less space and weight than a 2.5"-sized SSD in enclosure.

If you want your SSD to be replaceable, get the fat 13" MBP instead. Not that hard.

tokyojerry
Jul 4, 2011, 06:56 PM
The sceptical in me says this is nothing to do with speed, but rather with limiting 3rd party SSD upgrades.
Custom hard-drive firmware on iMacs, now soldered SSD... Apple machines are fast becoming severely locked down, and turning computers into disposable units.

I love Apple but am getting royally pissed off with this artificial locking down, especially if I can't even reuse components like a screen.
If I can't afford a bigger spec machine right now, I can't upgrade in the future. Instead, I need to buy a new one :confused:
Unless I go MacPro which, let's be honest, hasn't received a lot of Apple's attention in the recent past...

@puma25uk.. I completely concur and agree with you on these points. Simply stated, it's all about 'CONTROL'. I have a 2010 iMac still. I intentionally did not upgrade to a 2011 based on the proprietarized hard disk hardware, firmware. And now, the hard coded, lock down in the new macbook airs. I also am getting royally pissed off at Apple and their philosophy / policy of late. In fact I am 50-50 thinking now return to non-mac equipment, like the Macbook Air challenger soon to be released from Samsung, or the Macbook Pro challenger models from HP and just Hackintosh the frickin' computers. Besides, they are cheaper than Apple's hardware. Apple is primarily a hardware sales company. If they don't have the software, they really have nothing. It's why they are afraid to freely license and release it to other manufactures. Compete competitively and by a large margin with Apple? Now that won't settle well with them I bet! OS-X is Apple's only saving grace for me these days. Muck around with that too much too, and, time to seriously reconsider.

Data already has to be all 'railroaded' through itunes for central control via synchronization. No iTunes, no enjoy your content!! Period. I can not take a simple microSD and insert it into an iPad for example and play my data directly. I first must go through the process of converting videos to MP4 and MOV so iTunes will accept them. Then you have to drag and drop into itunes. Then you must connect your i-toys and make sure itunes is recognizing them. Then you must select what you want to synchronize through multiple screens. Then, and finally, you can synchronize your data so that you can finally enjoy it while on the go? Screw all that crap. Why can't I simply just play my content stored on an SD card by simple insertion? It's not that it is technically unfeasible. As you point out, it is intentional contrived lock down control. Hard coded SSD in Macbook Air breaks? Buy a new one! (of course). And no alternatives from competitors like with memory for the macbook pro (for now). Even that they will contrive to remove control from you for simple upgrades like hard disk and memory going forward. Mark my words! Even SJ himself mentioned, you are looking at the future of the macbook pro embodied in what you see in the macbook air. What does that mean? The DVD drive goes away (that's an obvious one. And, BD never saw the light of day). Your future MBP hard disks will be, well, what you see embodied in the current Macbook Air. (read, lockdown). And ditto for the future of memory in the Macbook Pro (if there even IS a macbook pro).

Not being sarcastic here one bit. Just looking at the changing landscape at Apple. Sooner or later there is bound to be major backlash. It also shows how many in the public at large are ignorant and/or unaware of what is going on. I moved from Windows to the Apple camp when Windows Vista sucked and Apple's adoption of the Intel processor and the OS was looking mighty good as an alternative to the then screwed up Windows. Well, the times, they are a changin'. The winds of fate. There are so many alternatiives gradually coming into play... and not just OS-X nor Windows. Ubuntu Linux, WebOS, Android, ChromeOS. The landscape is changing. Computing style is changing as well. Too much 'railroading' and 'control' tactic, Apple, and I am out of here. You can sell your disposable toys to suckers that don't mind the dictatorship and control factors.

MacSince1990
Jul 4, 2011, 06:57 PM
I can picture it... five years from now, we'll have 5 TB solid state drives as standard on any Mac :P

Well, yeah. With any luck they'll be likely cheaper than traditional HDDs. But with any luck we'll have depleted uranium HDDs @ 2000 TB...with an areal density that makes it faster for sequential R/Ws than SSDs =)

tokyojerry
Jul 4, 2011, 07:01 PM
Not really. This is the Air you're talking about. Apple is trying to make it as thin and light as possible, while also being fast and long battery lasting. Integrated SSDs take up less space and weight than a 2.5"-sized SSD in enclosure.

If you want your SSD to be replaceable, get the fat 13" MBP instead. Not that hard.

That is, until the MBP no longer exists and becomes JUST LIKE the MBA. SJ recently said, you are looking at the future of the MBP embodied in the macbook air. (read, CONTROL). Soon you won't need to worry about having to upgrade memory, hard disks, etc. Apple will solve the issue for you. Just buy a newer MBA down the road when one breaks. And forget about upgrading as Apple won't let you do it. Let Uncle Apple take care of all aspects of computing for you. But, be sure to line are pockets in the process too. Apple is a hardware sales company. Period. If they don't sell hardware, and if they don't have a strangle hold on the hardware they sell, they don't make money! So, make commoditized MBAs, and soon to be MBPs IMHO. Then, you must buy and replace them disposable MBAs down the road, if you wish to stay in the Apple game, that is.

Their saving grace is their software. No software to run on proprietarized hardware, no more sales. They are already pouncing on iWeb and iDVD. Sayonara. They screwed up royally in their recently released Final Cut Pro X to the dismay of many professionals. (= Marketing opportunity and market expansion for Adobe and Avid). Aperture is all about control. So is iPhoto, in the organization of your data. Once they screw up OS-X.... that's it.

wallysb01
Jul 4, 2011, 07:02 PM
I do not buy into the idea that mac's last longer than PCs. My mid-2007 iMac is slowing down to a crawl (I use alot of large PDCs for my hobbies) since I haven't upgraded it at all (other than a new harddrive since my last one died). Of course a 500 dollars PC is not gonna last as long as the cheapest mac out there but if they are both equally priced and equally maintained/taken care of they will last just as long.

Now this leads me to my biggest problem with the macbook air. My iMac's main problem is the lack of RAM (only 1GB), but I know that I can readily upgrade that for a marginal cost (just haven't done so because this is mostly a "fun computer" with casual games, pictures, movies, and internet).

Agreed, I've delt with both, and from my experience PCs actually last longer thanks to the increased costomizability and ease of upgrades.

Now, I don't want to make this into a PC/mac war. I love macs and will probably move entirely to macs with in a year. But if with the MBA Apple is moving to making it even harder to keep older computers up to date, that will shrink their market in my opinion, even for the Air. At $1000-1500 or so, a lot users are going to want to upgrade RAM or the hard drive to get 4-5, or more, years of service out of it. Maybe not huge portion of market, but I've done it, and I'm not really that much of a geek.

IMO, if something is going to just be a 2-3 year life span machine, it should be cheap. The MBA, is not cheap.

orfeas0
Jul 4, 2011, 07:04 PM
Yeah your right. Since most of the users of the mba will be either light users, and the mba is not that of a speed demon. If they could increase battery life it would be great and more useful to the 99% of the users.

I do avoid writes on my shiny ssd, but I do trash hdds with lots of use, specially laptop hdds. Bought 2 hdds one for me and one for my sister, mine lasted like 6 months, my sisters hdd still works (2 years and counting).

Avoid writes on the ssd? Okay, until now, I've only used HDDs, and my 500gb has been filled and cleared with data (movies, mostly) many many times now (I'm always at ~20-30gb remaining).
Does downloading (even for a little bit, until i move the data to an external) on an ssd cause problems with it? I mean if i download something, move it to my external then delete it from the ssd, does that wear it out?

dmb182
Jul 4, 2011, 07:14 PM
Avoid writes on the ssd? Okay, until now, I've only used HDDs, and my 500gb has been filled and cleared with data (movies, mostly) many many times now (I'm always at ~20-30gb remaining).
Does downloading (even for a little bit, until i move the data to an external) on an ssd cause problems with it? I mean if i download something, move it to my external then delete it from the ssd, does that wear it out?

I was ready to go out and buy the new MBA day one and this thread has confused me so much. I'm a light photoshop user, lots of garageband, ton of surfing and skype about 12 hours a day. Am I crazy to get an Air? The reason i was going for it was that portability has become a big concern for me recently. But this whole avoid writing on the SSD thing? i mean i wasnt planning on an external at all. Am i wrong to be considering a MBA? I mean i guess i could go 13 inch MBP but i've wanted the portability of the MBA for a lil while now.

shurcooL
Jul 4, 2011, 07:47 PM
Now this leads me to my biggest problem with the macbook air. My iMac's main problem is the lack of RAM (only 1GB), but I know that I can readily upgrade that for a marginal cost (just haven't done so because this is mostly a "fun computer" with casual games, pictures, movies, and internet). But I just cannot see a macbook air being functional without these little upgrades for more than a year or two.
But the Air has a very fast SSD, so it doesn't really get that negatively affected by low RAM amount. That's why they're able to push out base models with 2 GB and no one complains that it's laggy. Everyone says their Air with 2 GB feels faster/more responsive than a MBP with HDD and 8 GB RAM.

shurcooL
Jul 4, 2011, 07:49 PM
I was ready to go out and buy the new MBA day one and this thread has confused me so much. I'm a light photoshop user, lots of garageband, ton of surfing and skype about 12 hours a day. Am I crazy to get an Air? The reason i was going for it was that portability has become a big concern for me recently. But this whole avoid writing on the SSD thing? i mean i wasnt planning on an external at all. Am i wrong to be considering a MBA? I mean i guess i could go 13 inch MBP but i've wanted the portability of the MBA for a lil while now.
Go for the Air, it'll be your most favourite machine you've ever used. Don't worry about SSDs, the current generations are extremely reliable.

shurcooL
Jul 4, 2011, 07:53 PM
That is, until the MBP no longer exists and becomes JUST LIKE the MBA. SJ recently said, you are looking at the future of the MBP embodied in the macbook air. (read, CONTROL). Soon you won't need to worry about having to upgrade memory, hard disks, etc. Apple will solve the issue for you. Just buy a newer MBA down the road when one breaks. And forget about upgrading as Apple won't let you do it. Let Uncle Apple take care of all aspects of computing for you. But, be sure to line are pockets in the process too. Apple is a hardware sales company. Period. If they don't sell hardware, and if they don't have a strangle hold on the hardware they sell, they don't make money! So, make commoditized MBAs, and soon to be MBPs IMHO. Then, you must buy and replace them disposable MBAs down the road, if you wish to stay in the Apple game, that is.

Their saving grace is their software. No software to run on proprietarized hardware, no more sales. They are already pouncing on iWeb and iDVD. Sayonara. They screwed up royally in their recently released Final Cut Pro X to the dismay of many professionals. (= Marketing opportunity and market expansion for Adobe and Avid). Aperture is all about control. So is iPhoto, in the organization of your data. Once they screw up OS-X.... that's it.
Then don't buy future Apple laptops if you don't like them? What's the problem.

I have no issues with them having control over the hardware they make. I make the decision to buy if it they made good hardware. And I love what they're coming out with.

You want control? Make your own laptop.

shurcooL
Jul 4, 2011, 08:01 PM
No iTunes, no enjoy your content!! Period. I can not take a simple microSD and insert it into an iPad for example and play my data directly. I first must go through the process of converting videos to MP4 and MOV so iTunes will accept them. Then you have to drag and drop into itunes. Then you must connect your i-toys and make sure itunes is recognizing them. Then you must select what you want to synchronize through multiple screens. Then, and finally, you can synchronize your data so that you can finally enjoy it while on the go? Screw all that crap. Why can't I simply just play my content stored on an SD card by simple insertion? It's not that it is technically unfeasible. As you point out, it is intentional contrived lock down control.
iTunes is the easiest place to buy songs from.

Just this morning I wanted to listen to one particular song on my iPhone. I launched iTunes app, found it and bought it for $1.29.

Where do your songs on the SD card come from? If you're downloading them without paying, then of course everything you said makes sense. Apple makes it easy to buy things officially, they don't help you if you're trying something else.

kiljoy616
Jul 4, 2011, 08:02 PM
I can picture it... five years from now, we'll have 5 TB solid state drives as standard on any Mac :P

I don't know about that, it seems SSD are becoming faster but not bigger for now. I am sure this will change but I can't see 5T even in 5 years unless something drastic changes.

Though I could dream about iPad 4 with 1 TB of memory, oh mamma that would be sweeeeeet. Can't fill it now but I am sure over the next few years I can fill it up with non compressed music:p

cvaldes
Jul 4, 2011, 08:07 PM
I've been searching the forums and threads and I can't find anything that gives indicating of the various hard drive capacities the new macbook air might have, any ideas?
Double the amount that is currently being offered, at the same price point.

It's not like they'd go from 64GB to 500GB all of a sudden. For additional reference, see the product history of the iPhone, iPod touch, or any of the flash-based iPods. Try Wikipedia if you don't know where to find such data.

Storage capacity increases are roughly following Moore's Law: double the number of transistors every eighteen months.

nizmoz
Jul 4, 2011, 08:17 PM
Well, after waiting two months for the MBA, I have decided to skip it and got a new MBP 15" for my laptop. If for whatever reason the AIR is a nice upgrade over the old one I might return it, but leaving the fact that Apple is limiting you so much on upgrades with that laptop, that I decided to go with the MBP. :)

Apple, see what happens when you wait too long, you lose sales on the MBA!

wallysb01
Jul 4, 2011, 08:19 PM
Double the amount that is currently being offered, at the same price point.

It's not like they'd go from 64GB to 500GB all of a sudden. For additional reference, see the product history of the iPhone, iPod touch, or any of the flash-based iPods. Try Wikipedia if you don't know where to find such data.

Storage capacity increases are roughly following Moore's Law: double the number of transistors every eighteen months.

Even for the current 13" 256GB? Given the current prices of SSD, I have a time believing we'll see a MBA 13" 512GB at the same price.

MikhailT
Jul 4, 2011, 08:23 PM
I don't know about that, it seems SSD are becoming faster but not bigger for now. I am sure this will change but I can't see 5T even in 5 years unless something drastic changes.

Though I could dream about iPad 4 with 1 TB of memory, oh mamma that would be sweeeeeet. Can't fill it now but I am sure over the next few years I can fill it up with non compressed music:p

That will happen, however not with the same performance as we expect.

The way it'll happen is by introducing an extra bit per cell. Right now, there are two NANDs being sold, a single-bit cell (SLC) and a 2-bit per cell (MLC). SLC is the fastest because you only have write one bit per cell but MLC has more space because you can store two bits per cell but you have a much slower write speed because you have to rewrite the previous 2-bit stored with a new 2-bit data, it is not possible at the moment to *append* one bit change.

Right now, there are many companies such as Seagate that are working on 3-bit MLC (production) and some are working with 4-bit MLC (research/experimental) . That makes it possible to introduce multiple terabytes SSD in the same size but with an extremely slow write speed because once again, for a 4-bit cell even with only 2 bits that you have to change, you have to clear the cell and write 4-bit data to it.

So, if you have 512GB SSD with 2-bit MLC, for the same price, you can get 2TB SSD with 4-bit MLC. (I have to check my math to be sure)

We should see a 2TB SSD with 3 or 4-bit MLC within the next two years and not at high prices either, should be compatible to the current 512GB SSD prices.

I gaurantee you it's NOT bits. 400 megaBITS is only 50 megaBYTES which is achieved by mechanical drives easily enough.

We're talking about NANDs here, not an actual SSD. NANDs are typically measured in megabits. ONFI 3.0 offers a 400mbit interface for the NANDs.

The reason we get 200+ megabytes now is because SSDs have a controller that can access data via channels that binds multiple NANDs at the same time (in order word, it can read and write from many NANDs at the same time). So, if we're talking about 4-channel SSD that with 2-bit MLC NANDs per channel, that's 4 channels * 2 bits per NANDs (400Mbps) = 4 * 800 Mbps = 1600 Mbps/8 = 200MBps.

Fast performance SSDs usually have 8-12 channels, so an 8 channel SSD with ONFI 3 NANDs = 800MBps.

There are overheads that have to be factored in but cut off about 30%, we're talking about 600MBps for 8 channel SSD with ONFI 3 spec'ed NANDs.

Right now, the current ONFI 2.1 are spec'ed at 133Mbits.

lyrrad721
Jul 4, 2011, 08:25 PM
Well, after waiting two months for the MBA, I have decided to skip it and got a new MBP 15" for my laptop. If for whatever reason the AIR is a nice upgrade over the old one I might return it, but leaving the fact that Apple is limiting you so much on upgrades with that laptop, that I decided to go with the MBP. :)

Apple, see what happens when you wait too long, you lose sales on the MBA!

See you next week in the forums asking whether to keep your mbp or returning it for the new mba ;) :rolleyes:

FakeWozniak
Jul 4, 2011, 08:26 PM
It's 400Mbits/s, not bytes. The actual speed depends on the controller too.

EDIT: Hmm, Samsung's site is wrong then. ONFI's site claims 400MB/s which is what I remember as well (133Mb/s wouldn't be enough for even today's SSDs)

This Dilbert strip came to mind.
http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1991-09-27/

danvdr
Jul 4, 2011, 08:38 PM
Seems that a lot of people are worried about the upgradability of the MBA. Won't Thunderbolt take care of many of those upgrades (once devices start becoming available)?

organerito
Jul 4, 2011, 08:40 PM
iTunes is the easiest place to buy songs from.

Just this morning I wanted to listen to one particular song on my iPhone. I launched iTunes app, found it and bought it for $1.29.

Where do your songs on the SD card come from? If you're downloading them without paying, then of course everything you said makes sense. Apple makes it easy to buy things officially, they don't help you if you're trying something else.

He is talking about how tedious it can be to watch a video on the iPad. He never mentioned anything about music. he talked about "data and content" Are you implying that because he has data (music according to you) on a SD card, he didn't pay for it? Or are you saying that iTunes is the only way to get multimedia content legally?

I don't know if it is funny or sad.

tombubi
Jul 4, 2011, 08:40 PM
So many rumors about air now. I cant really wait for the refresh one to come out!!

Popeye206
Jul 4, 2011, 08:42 PM
@puma25uk.. I completely concur and agree with you on these points. Simply stated, it's all about 'CONTROL'. I have a 2010 iMac still. I intentionally did not upgrade to a 2011 based on the proprietarized hard disk hardware, firmware. And now, the hard coded, lock down in the new macbook airs. I also am getting royally pissed off at Apple and their philosophy / policy of late. In fact I am 50-50 thinking now return to non-mac equipment, like the Macbook Air challenger soon to be released from Samsung, or the Macbook Pro challenger models from HP and just Hackintosh the frickin' computers. Besides, they are cheaper than Apple's hardware. Apple is primarily a hardware sales company. If they don't have the software, they really have nothing. It's why they are afraid to freely license and release it to other manufactures. Compete competitively and by a large margin with Apple? Now that won't settle well with them I bet! OS-X is Apple's only saving grace for me these days. Muck around with that too much too, and, time to seriously reconsider.

Data already has to be all 'railroaded' through itunes for central control via synchronization. No iTunes, no enjoy your content!! Period. I can not take a simple microSD and insert it into an iPad for example and play my data directly. I first must go through the process of converting videos to MP4 and MOV so iTunes will accept them. Then you have to drag and drop into itunes. Then you must connect your i-toys and make sure itunes is recognizing them. Then you must select what you want to synchronize through multiple screens. Then, and finally, you can synchronize your data so that you can finally enjoy it while on the go? Screw all that crap. Why can't I simply just play my content stored on an SD card by simple insertion? It's not that it is technically unfeasible. As you point out, it is intentional contrived lock down control. Hard coded SSD in Macbook Air breaks? Buy a new one! (of course). And no alternatives from competitors like with memory for the macbook pro (for now). Even that they will contrive to remove control from you for simple upgrades like hard disk and memory going forward. Mark my words! Even SJ himself mentioned, you are looking at the future of the macbook pro embodied in what you see in the macbook air. What does that mean? The DVD drive goes away (that's an obvious one. And, BD never saw the light of day). Your future MBP hard disks will be, well, what you see embodied in the current Macbook Air. (read, lockdown). And ditto for the future of memory in the Macbook Pro (if there even IS a macbook pro).

Not being sarcastic here one bit. Just looking at the changing landscape at Apple. Sooner or later there is bound to be major backlash. It also shows how many in the public at large are ignorant and/or unaware of what is going on. I moved from Windows to the Apple camp when Windows Vista sucked and Apple's adoption of the Intel processor and the OS was looking mighty good as an alternative to the then screwed up Windows. Well, the times, they are a changin'. The winds of fate. There are so many alternatiives gradually coming into play... and not just OS-X nor Windows. Ubuntu Linux, WebOS, Android, ChromeOS. The landscape is changing. Computing style is changing as well. Too much 'railroading' and 'control' tactic, Apple, and I am out of here. You can sell your disposable toys to suckers that don't mind the dictatorship and control factors.

I'll be short... "see ya!" :rolleyes:

Wow. Time to step away from the trackpad.

cvaldes
Jul 4, 2011, 08:44 PM
Seems that a lot of people are worried about the upgradability of the MBA. Won't Thunderbolt take care of many of those upgrades (once devices start becoming available)?
No.

The discussions above ae about the upgradability of internal parts, specifically the SSD module, and to a lesser extent other internal components such as the battery.

Thunderbolt is an external peripheral interface. To my knowledge, this interface does not handle the transfer of external power to the host device. The current MacBook Air has USB 2.0 ports; people are not discussing the availability of external peripheral connections in this thread.

Popeye206
Jul 4, 2011, 09:20 PM
No.

The discussions above ae about the upgradability of internal parts, specifically the SSD module, and to a lesser extent other internal components such as the battery.

Thunderbolt is an external peripheral interface. To my knowledge, this interface does not handle the transfer of external power to the host device. The current MacBook Air has USB 2.0 ports; people are not discussing the availability of external peripheral connections in this thread.

iCloud could help as it would allow you to keep more available to swap onto your fixed SSD drive.

But... personally, I don't get why some are so up in arms over this. It's an ultra portable device and it looks like Apple is going for the best combo for power and battery life. Not upgradability. I'm guessing they have enough data at this point that shows not that many people want a drive upgrade anyway for a MBA. It would seem if you want an upgradable device, go for a MBP.

revelated
Jul 4, 2011, 09:22 PM
Do we really want to move laptops to a point where they are completely unexpandable?

Been saying for months now that the problem is a loss of choice. Sheeple will continue to praise Jobs for being "visionary"...when all he's doing is suckering people.

There's going to need to be a point where Apple is required to offer some sort of direct trade-in program. And I don't mean that third party nonsense for a gift card. I mean when a new model comes out, Apple DIRECTLY offering to customers to trade their previous gen in for a discount on the new if they want to upgrade. They've already saturated most sales avenues making it difficult to sell the machines. And yes, I know people don't "have" to upgrade, but if they want to, it's a lot of money wasted. It's the reason I didn't upgrade my iMac...that and the hard drive firmware nonsense.

fertilized-egg
Jul 4, 2011, 09:28 PM
They've already saturated most sales avenues making it difficult to sell the machines.

:confused: Aren't Apple sales all growing across the boards every year except the old iPods?

cvaldes
Jul 4, 2011, 09:31 PM
According to their quarterly SEC filings, yes.

nizmoz
Jul 4, 2011, 09:43 PM
See you next week in the forums asking whether to keep your mbp or returning it for the new mba ;) :rolleyes:

Not at all. Not when this MBP can run circles around any MBA even the new one. :)

Ridley
Jul 4, 2011, 09:45 PM
Been saying for months now that the problem is a loss of choice. Sheeple will continue to praise Jobs for being "visionary"...when all he's doing is suckering people.

They've already saturated most sales avenues making it difficult to sell the machines. And yes, I know people don't "have" to upgrade, but if they want to, it's a lot of money wasted.

I saw someone reply already that they still are growing sales quite a lot. However I do see your point and think its valid. Increasingly Apple is really appealing to the geeks that just want to throw their money at the latest, shiny, i something. I know several people that have literally owned every iPhone model because they just HAVE to have it!! Doesn't matter the price, the extended contract obligation, etc. I think Apple is very much aware of this market and is taking (suckering) them in with open arms. The latest locks on upgrades in the iMac really hammer this home... but I think you'll also see hints of it in Lion, and iCloud that make is easy to buy more and more Apple machines and have it keep your data and applications. They have already gotten people to buy new iPhones and now iPads every year... why not try to get them to buy new computers every year too?

I don't blame Apple, I am sure every company ever would love to be able to have that model, but as a nerd that likes to ticker with my electronics and get the most out of them, its not something that I like.

twoodcc
Jul 4, 2011, 09:55 PM
this sounds good to me. just bring the new airs out already!

SilianRail
Jul 4, 2011, 09:55 PM
Can someone talk ballpark about how much hard drive use per day you need to wear it out over in like 5 years?

MikhailT
Jul 4, 2011, 10:24 PM
No.

The discussions above ae about the upgradability of internal parts, specifically the SSD module, and to a lesser extent other internal components such as the battery.

Thunderbolt is an external peripheral interface. To my knowledge, this interface does not handle the transfer of external power to the host device. The current MacBook Air has USB 2.0 ports; people are not discussing the availability of external peripheral connections in this thread.

It does provide power, the current Thunderbolt has copper wires and can provide up to 10 W of power.

What danvdr (I'm assuming here) was talking about was the use of external SSD or external hard drive over Thunderbolt which would be fast enough to reduce the need to having a bigger SSD in MBA. For an example, you can buy 64GB MBA and place your data (like Photos, Movies that you don't need with you all the time) on external SSD/HDDs that can be small and portable.

Can someone talk ballpark about how much hard drive use per day you need to wear it out over in like 5 years?

There are no general information that can be given because it all depends on the SSD itself.

SLC-based NANDs generally last 10x more than 2-bit MLCs and there are new MLC technologies that can match the lifespan of the SLC that Intel and others are developing for the enterprise that should be carried over to the customer's line later on.

The size of the drive matters greatly along with the firmware and controllers in the SSD.

Purely an estimate here: For the today's good quality MLC 64GB, you can write 128GB per day and it'll still last around a dozen of years.

Remember that it's the writing to the NANDs that has a short lifespan, not the reading. You should be able to read the data forever as long as the controller continues to work.

audiopablo
Jul 4, 2011, 10:25 PM
It's the 4th of July.

If you're in the U.S., get out and celebrate for a minute. Your opinion on a rumor can wait a day, and so can my snarky comments...:)

Let's all step back and say, "It's okay, friends and relationships mean more than a 20% bump in speed or an extra 30 minutes of battery life.

I point the finger at myself first here. I even came here for a second, too.

Let's pet a dog or drink a milkshake and remember what life was like before we all went apesh*t over things that haven't happened yet. Computers don't care about you... ever.

If you're out of the U.S., proceed as normal. Here's your :apple: pass. Lord knows I'll be back on first thing tomorrow. We're all sick.:eek:

shurcooL
Jul 4, 2011, 10:40 PM
He is talking about how tedious it can be to watch a video on the iPad. He never mentioned anything about music. he talked about "data and content" Are you implying that because he has data (music according to you) on a SD card, he didn't pay for it? Or are you saying that iTunes is the only way to get multimedia content legally?

I don't know if it is funny or sad.
My bad, I thought he was taking about mp3s. I hear those woes, but they have/had things like VLC player, or that StreamToMe app. Converting video to play on a mobile device is not unheard of either. Anyway, there's always Android devices for people who don't like Apple's approach. They have SD slots and all.

holycat
Jul 4, 2011, 11:40 PM
Seriously, I don't care at all for self SSD upgrade.

I will buy in the MAXED UP version and sell it before the next version release.

couto27
Jul 4, 2011, 11:48 PM
tools ($10)
my wife original mba 2008, i upgrade to renice ssd (cost $110)
my mbp13 late 2009 i upgrade to a ocz vertex 2 ($150)

soon my future upgrade will be 8gb memory in mbp13 (price around ($100) my wife macbook air.....well or i learn to soldered a 4b memory or sell it.

and im no geek, or tech person, just used youtube and ifixit to do it.

Rocketman
Jul 5, 2011, 12:10 AM
Simplifying Adoption with Broad Ecosystem Support
“Micron is focused on providing customers with a broad range of flash-based storage options that deliver a clear performance value-add, whether it’s at the NAND component level or within our portfolio of system-level solutions,” said Kevin Kilbuck, director of marketing for Micron’s NAND Solutions Group. “We look forward to extending our NAND and SSD portfolio to take advantage of the fast performance improvements and CE pin reduction that ONFI 3.0 provides.”

“The new ONFI 3.0 technology supporting interface transfer rates of up to 400MB/s is a key NAND capability to support future SSD design” said Knut Grimsrud, Intel fellow and director of storage architecture. “With this interface performance scaling, ONFI NAND will play an important role in SSD compute development, especially for high-performance computing applications where speed is paramount.”These are N. American companies with domestic technology. Yay us.

Rocketman

sunspot42
Jul 5, 2011, 12:13 AM
Why would anyone want to upgrade their computer? :rolleyes:

With Thunderbolt, you don't need to fiddle with a machine's innards in order to expand it. If the next-gen MBA comes with Thunderbolt, you could add all the speedy external FLASH drives you want.

Thunderbolt's gonna change everything for portable devices and may cause us to rethink what constitutes a "desktop" computer.

macsmurf
Jul 5, 2011, 12:45 AM
With Thunderbolt, you don't need to fiddle with a machine's innards in order to expand it. If the next-gen MBA comes with Thunderbolt, you could add all the speedy external FLASH drives you want.


...And you get to bring all your expansions with you and then reconnect them every time you need your laptop (and of course disconnect everything when you pack away the laptop again). Oh, what joy ;)

MattInOz
Jul 5, 2011, 12:58 AM
I'm a little confused...

The thickness of the MacBook Air is defined by the CPU with it's carrier and heat sink. So it's not going to save any space to move the SSD modules to the board as they are currently fitted in to a void space created by the height of the CPU. Look at ifixit teardown the SSD and RAM are layered over each other. The thinness of the leading edge seem to be all about battery modules. I can't see the CPU combo getting any thinner so the device isn't going to get thinner either so that space void will still be there.

So even if this system used PCIe to connect instead of SATA it would seem to be more space sensitive to have it on a board so they can overlay it on the ram like they do now. Well unless they reverse the two and put a normal ram module back in (yes I realise that suggestion is really silly).

If they did use a PCIe SSD and then had thunderbolt controller then the intel IO chipset looks even more ridiculous with the amount of space it takes for so little function in the machine.

Does the battery saving come from having it on board or just from more power efficient chips teamed with a smarter controller?

biodigitaljazz
Jul 5, 2011, 01:58 AM
Thunderbolt's gonna change everything for portable devices and may cause us to rethink what constitutes a "desktop" computer.

This. I'll be commuting to college all 4 years, and I'll be getting a refreshed MBA, regardless of a backlit keyboard (:D) With the Thunderbolt port, and the Bluetooth capabilities of the Air, and *possibly* a USB hub, I can have a set of speakers, an HDTV as a monitor, a BT mouse and keyboard, and a USB external HDD waiting for me at home. Set the Air down on the desk, plug it in, hook it up? Instant desktop setup! Leaving for school? Unplug the monitor and speakers, and bring the external HDD with me; it's the size of my wallet. Now I'm mobile. I'm extremely excited to get this kind of operation going, and as soon Apple releases the damn things, I can drop my hard earned money on one: 4GB ram, 128GB SSD. Size? Haven't decided.

On the topic of the soldered SSDs, I always remember this quote Steve Jobs said. I think he was quoting someone else, though: "We skate to where the puck will be, not where it has been." As Apple becomes more "mainstream," so to speak, I think their demographic slowly shifts to, if it's not already, people who want to use their computer for what they want/need to do, and really don't know about what's inside it making it work, or even give a care. As some people have said,: The average consumer. I have also heard those who swear by the current gen MBA, and have it as their only computer, which as I described above, will me as well, soon enough. I think, the bottom line? Great, if it adds speed/battery life. The Air has always been built around its mobility, and this adjustment no doubt has been made to serve that feature of the machine.

AwakenedLands
Jul 5, 2011, 02:00 AM
Coming from the hardware industry, SSDs are fickle and don't last long. I can't understand why an SSD would be part of the mobo rather than an add-on card. They are basically saying the MBA is like an iPad or iPhone. If that's the path Apple wants to take with their hardware, goodbye.

AppleScruff1
Jul 5, 2011, 02:49 AM
SSD soldered onto the motherboard hmm.
You trash your ssd with writes and that means that you also trashed your motherboard. Nice. Soldered ram maybe, soldered ssd nop.

This is good for Apple. They will make even bigger profits selling new motherboards when the ssd dies. Plus it is good for the consumer not to be able to replace it themselves or get an aftermarket drive, ie, more control by Apple, which is a good thing for all of us.

bpaluzzi
Jul 5, 2011, 04:22 AM
Over the past 20 years I've owned a lot of Macs and a few PCs. I've had more hard drive failures than all other components put together.

Mechanical hard drives != SSD.

bpaluzzi
Jul 5, 2011, 04:33 AM
Not being sarcastic here one bit. Just looking at the changing landscape at Apple. Sooner or later there is bound to be major backlash. It also shows how many in the public at large are ignorant and/or unaware of what is going on.

Nope, it just shows that the tiny, tiny, fractional percentage of geeks that care about these things are going the way of the Dodo.

Blue Sun
Jul 5, 2011, 04:34 AM
Plus it is good for the consumer not to be able to replace it themselves or get an aftermarket drive, ie, more control by Apple, which is a good thing for all of us.

Why is not being able to replace the stock drive with an aftermarket drive good for us?

It's hard to tell whether you're serious or being sarcastic.

zedsdead
Jul 5, 2011, 06:02 AM
Coming from the hardware industry, SSDs are fickle and don't last long. I can't understand why an SSD would be part of the mobo rather than an add-on card. They are basically saying the MBA is like an iPad or iPhone. If that's the path Apple wants to take with their hardware, goodbye.

They've already said that the recent redesign of the Macbook Air was a mix of the Macbook Pro and the iPad. Expect more similarities in the future.

Dowjohnny
Jul 5, 2011, 06:23 AM
Nevertheless: I'm looking forward to the new MBA ^^ Time to switch to Apple on my Notebook too

seveej
Jul 5, 2011, 07:18 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_2 like Mac OS X; fi-fi) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8H7 Safari/6533.18.5)


I love Apple but am getting royally pissed off with this artificial locking down, especially if I can't even reuse components like a screen.
If I can't afford a bigger spec machine right now, I can't upgrade in the future. Instead, I need to buy a new one :confused:
Unless I go MacPro which, let's be honest, hasn't received a lot of Apple's attention in the recent past...

Here's something to consider. Macbooks have an insanely high resell value. Rather than complaining about computers being locked down and unable to upgrade, buy a macbook and use it for 2-3 years and then SELL it rather than upgrading. Then buy a newer generation system. You'll be getting a much faster system anyway.

Case and point. I had a 2000 dollar macbook pro from 2009 and I just sold that thing for 1300 on ebay. 3 years and a loss of only 700 dollars is almost a steal. Put in a couple hundred dollars and I'm picking up a baseline 2011 macbook pro 15.

How's that for upgrade?

I think upgrading MacBooks (of all flavors) is more and more a "sell the old one, pick up a new one and load your data and settings from time machine/cloud" -type of affair.

jonnysods
Jul 5, 2011, 07:25 AM
Goodness, they are going to make me regret the purchase of my MBP.

frabber
Jul 5, 2011, 09:05 AM
I am curious as to what they come up with. If I could do java software development on it (not sure if SSD is a fit), I might be interested to buy. Also it will need to have a retina or IPS matte display.

toddybody
Jul 5, 2011, 09:44 AM
Goodness, they are going to make me regret the purchase of my MBP.

Na;) You can place a much better SSD in your MBP and rock the house. Cheers mate.

ktappe
Jul 5, 2011, 10:08 AM
All of you saying that this change (if true) doesn't affect you are ignoring the idea that the moment your Mac refuses to boot, it does affect you. Your data can be rescued off of a removable drive (regardless of the form factor) if the motherboard or some other component fails. It can't if the storage is soldered on. Imagine a scenario where the Mac gets immersed or is hit by a surge. You want your data back. Even if you don't ever intend to open your Mac and take out the drive, the technicians you take your Mac to do. But their hands are tied if the drive is not removable. "Too bad, you should have had a current backup" is literally all they'll be able to say.

EVERYONE SHOULD DEMAND REMOVABLE DRIVES IN THEIR COMPUTERS.

bpaluzzi
Jul 5, 2011, 10:14 AM
everyone should demand removable drives in their computers.

someone should demand decaf.

;)

gnasher729
Jul 5, 2011, 10:33 AM
All of you saying that this change (if true) doesn't affect you are ignoring the idea that the moment your Mac refuses to boot, it does affect you. Your data can be rescued off of a removable drive (regardless of the form factor) if the motherboard or some other component fails. It can't if the storage is soldered on. Imagine a scenario where the Mac gets immersed or is hit by a surge. You want your data back. Even if you don't ever intend to open your Mac and take out the drive, the technicians you take your Mac to do. But their hands are tied if the drive is not removable. "Too bad, you should have had a current backup" is literally all they'll be able to say.

EVERYONE SHOULD DEMAND REMOVABLE DRIVES IN THEIR COMPUTERS.

If the technicians say "Too bad, you should have had a current backup" then yes, that's exactly that. So how does your removable drive help you if your MacBook is stolen and you have no backup? And I suspect that SSDs (semiconductor) might not be happy with a power surge that destroys the motherboard of your Mac. Not having a backup is criminal negligence.

ktappe
Jul 5, 2011, 10:37 AM
If the technicians say "Too bad, you should have had a current backup" then yes, that's exactly that. So how does your removable drive help you if your MacBook is stolen and you have no backup?
That is one scenario. It is not every scenario. It is a fallacy of logic to say that because a removable SSD won't help in a theft case it can never help in any case. I suggest you re-examine your argument.

I'd further my response by proposing a removable drive helps in more cases than it does not. And it helps in cases where a simple backup does not. I can remove my drive before taking my Mac in for service so that sensitive data is not available to Apple Techs, for example. A Mac without a removable drive is probably not ever going to be permitted for purchase by my employer, a bank that has very strict rules about data security. Apple will lose sales if they follow through on this plan.

AppleScruff1
Jul 5, 2011, 10:55 AM
Why is not being able to replace the stock drive with an aftermarket drive good for us?

It's hard to tell whether you're serious or being sarcastic.

Apple knows what's best for us, we're not cable of deciding that for ourselves, hence the more control Apple has, the better off we are as consumers. I'm sure Steve has a valid reason with our best interests at heart why the ssd will be soldered to the motherboard. We just don't know or understand what it is because he is so many levels above us it is impossible for us to comprehend. The man bears a heavy burden worrying about mankind and how to improve it.

floobie
Jul 5, 2011, 11:28 AM
For the intended purpose of the Macbook Air, this makes loads of sense. People don't buy Airs to have a mobile powerhouse or anything. They buy it because it's extremely thin, light, portable, durable, and has excellent battery life... all while still being very snappy and useable for all but the most demanding tasks. The more Apple can improve any of those things (while keeping the price reasonable), the better.

People complaining about an un-upgradeable laptop are people who shouldn't be considering a Macbook Air. They should be looking at a Macbook Pro. Sorta like the name suggests ;)

flynz4
Jul 5, 2011, 12:07 PM
All of you saying that this change (if true) doesn't affect you are ignoring the idea that the moment your Mac refuses to boot, it does affect you. Your data can be rescued off of a removable drive (regardless of the form factor) if the motherboard or some other component fails. It can't if the storage is soldered on. Imagine a scenario where the Mac gets immersed or is hit by a surge. You want your data back. Even if you don't ever intend to open your Mac and take out the drive, the technicians you take your Mac to do. But their hands are tied if the drive is not removable. "Too bad, you should have had a current backup" is literally all they'll be able to say.

EVERYONE SHOULD DEMAND REMOVABLE DRIVES IN THEIR COMPUTERS.

If you are dependent upon the data on your laptop, desktop, or all of them together... then I recommend that you rethink your backup strategy.

/Jim

bocomoj
Jul 5, 2011, 12:19 PM
My point is, that in 3 years time, when the soldered SSD starts screwing up and your resell value drops like a stone, I'd rather pick up a new SSD (by which time prices will have dropped considerably) than having to get a whole new laptop.

Personally, I'd resell while still under AppleCare, so that the machine is in perfectly functional condition and fetches the best resale price.

Portaluk
Jul 5, 2011, 12:41 PM
I don't know anyone that's upgraded anything on their MBs (Pro, Air or otherwise) after their initial purchase.


I have upgraded both the ram and hard disk on my pro from third party sellers.
Apple charges a ridiculous premium to upgrade components on their MBs.

bocomoj
Jul 5, 2011, 01:04 PM
I don't know anyone that's upgraded anything on their MBs (Pro, Air or otherwise) after their initial purchase.

I can't say the same, particularly with respect to storage. I replaced dead HDDs in my TiBook at least three times (that I can remember) over seven years of "daily driving." But those were mechanical drives with spinning plates and moving heads. Seems to me an SSD drive should last about forever with no moving parts. After all, the copper wiring in my 200 year old house still conducts electricity.

bocomoj
Jul 5, 2011, 01:39 PM
Just looking at the changing landscape at Apple. Sooner or later there is bound to be major backlash. It also shows how many in the public at large are ignorant and/or unaware of what is going on.

Note: When I say "no one" below, I mean "not nearly enough people to force Apple or any other company to change its methods."

There will be no backlash, major or otherwise.

I created the first web site to ever criticize Apple for engineered obsolescence when the first iMac was released in 1998. No one cared more than a decade ago, and no one cares now. We entered the age of disposable electronics long ago (in technological-years, which are not the same as people-years or even dog-years). No one cares that hardware isn't upgradable. No one cares about waste. No one cares that all these issues could be avoided by simple adoption of a well-reasoned, standards-based approach to hardware development. No. One. Cares. There is nothing to be done but accept it and move on.

Repeat after me: I will buy a new MBA upon release. I will purchase two additional years of AppleCare. I will sell it when AppleCare approaches expiration and buy a new machine.

This is the twenty-first century. Welcome aboard.

calvol
Jul 5, 2011, 02:00 PM
SSD failure rates are anywhere from 0.5% to 3%, depending on the manufacturer. Removing Intel SSDs from the equation, it looks like the typical industry SSD failure is about 2.4%, so for every 1000 Airs sold, about 24 will fail. I would definitely get AppleCare if indeed the SSDs are soldered in. Maybe this is Apple's strategy to grow revenue from AC repair services.

SSD failure rates:
- Intel 0.59%
- Corsair 2.17%
- Crucial 2.25%
- Kingston 2.39%
- OCZ 2.93%

SilianRail
Jul 5, 2011, 02:26 PM
SSD failure rates are anywhere from 0.5% to 3%, depending on the manufacturer. Removing Intel SSDs from the equation, it looks like the typical industry SSD failure is about 2.4%, so for every 1000 Airs sold, about 24 will fail. I would definitely get AppleCare if indeed the SSDs are soldered in. Maybe this is Apple's strategy to grow revenue from AC repair services.

SSD failure rates:
- Intel 0.59%
- Corsair 2.17%
- Crucial 2.25%
- Kingston 2.39%
- OCZ 2.93%Paying $249 to insure something that has a 2.4% chance of failing means the product needs to be worth $10,375 for you to break even.

FasterQuieter
Jul 5, 2011, 02:54 PM
Let's hope a smaller more power efficient SSD means room and power for backlit keys again. Once you have had them it really is very sad to have to give them up.

melvora
Jul 5, 2011, 02:57 PM
Here's something to consider. Macbooks have an insanely high resell value. Rather than complaining about computers being locked down and unable to upgrade, buy a macbook and use it for 2-3 years and then SELL it rather than upgrading. Then buy a newer generation system. You'll be getting a much faster system anyway.

Case and point. I had a 2000 dollar macbook pro from 2009 and I just sold that thing for 1300 on ebay. 3 years and a loss of only 700 dollars is almost a steal. Put in a couple hundred dollars and I'm picking up a baseline 2011 macbook pro 15.

How's that for upgrade?

One of the cardinal rules of selling a used laptop/computer is that you always remove your hdd from it because unless you are willing to spend money to have it professionally wiped, anyone determine enough can get to your data. So the easiest thing would be to remove the drive and either sell it without one or buy a new one for it. But with the storage device now soldered on, I would be a lot more reluctant about selling such a laptop because of the security issues involved. How's that for not being naive?

wallysb01
Jul 5, 2011, 03:05 PM
Paying $249 to insure something that has a 2.4% chance of failing means the product needs to be worth $10,375 for you to break even.

Well, then you have to weigh the real cost. While you might not add up to $10K, there are a number of things that could push the real cost of failure to you above the replacement cost of the computer. This is why (wise) people generally pay a decent percentage of their total computing costs in making sure they have a number of backups.

Now, with the soldered on SSD its not exactly that problem, because you still need back ups. However, many users do have a fair amount of time invested into making their computer theirs, and you've limited the lifespan of the computer, which like it or not, also has value. Sure, many users will dump them before Applecare expires, but many also don't want to go through the hassle of that every <3 years.

You have to think about the marginal cost here. While to some, that marginal $1000 for new computer after selling the old one is worth it, others would much rather spend $100-200 dollars upgrading a few features and keeping it another 2 years. Just depends on how you value various aspects of computers. In the Air Apple has apparently chosen to limit a few of the aspects. Some will not care, others will. Some of those that will, will just be pushed into buying a MBP, like it looks like I will. But Apple will still get my business.

flynz4
Jul 5, 2011, 03:08 PM
One of the cardinal rules of selling a used laptop/computer is that you always remove your hdd from it because unless you are willing to spend money to have it professionally wiped, anyone determine enough can get to your data. So the easiest thing would be to remove the drive and either sell it without one or buy a new one for it. But with the storage device now soldered on, I would be a lot more reluctant about selling such a laptop because of the security issues involved. How's that for not being naive?

While true for HDD's... it is not necessarily true for SSD's. HDD's require many passes to remove the residual magnetic patterns coarsely distributed over a 2D surface. SSD's store the data in discrete memory cells. When you add in drive encryption... your premise is obsolete. Just killing the encryption key leaves the device essentially uncrackable. The combination of an SSD overwrite and changing the encryption keys is bulletproof.

/Jim

AidenShaw
Jul 5, 2011, 03:35 PM
The combination of an SSD overwrite and changing the encryption keys is bulletproof.

/Jim

Just look up '"secure erase" ssd' on your favorite search engine.

This dumps all the data in a single ATA transaction.

(It also restores original performance to drives/operating systems that don't support TRIM - it's a "TRIM entire drive")

SilianRail
Jul 5, 2011, 03:38 PM
Actually, $10K might be understating what the MBA needs to be worth for Applecare to be cost effective since a 1 year warranty is included and I bet the majority of hardware failures occur in the first year.

flynz4
Jul 5, 2011, 03:45 PM
Just look up '"secure erase" ssd' on your favorite search engine.

This dumps all the data in a single ATA transaction.

(It also restores original performance to drives/operating systems that don't support TRIM - it's a "TRIM entire drive")

I was actually going to mention "secure erase"... but then I felt that the "tin foil hat" crowd would complain that they don't trust the operation. But of course you are correct.

I suppose a combination of secure erase, changing the full drive encryption keys, and physical overwrite should be fine for anyone... except those rare few who will be abducted by aliens.

/Jim

Heilage
Jul 5, 2011, 03:55 PM
Just look up '"secure erase" ssd' on your favorite search engine.

This dumps all the data in a single ATA transaction.

(It also restores original performance to drives/operating systems that don't support TRIM - it's a "TRIM entire drive")

See, I've heard both about this, and I don't know which is correct, will it kill the drive or get it back to optimal performance? Do you have any technical articles that can explain this?

Bregalad
Jul 5, 2011, 04:34 PM
I suppose a combination of secure erase, changing the full drive encryption keys, and physical overwrite should be fine for anyone... except those rare few who will be abducted by aliens.

/Jim

and the aliens know who you are! ;)

You mean there's someone out there with a Mac using full disk encryption?
Nobody I know trusts the disk image based File Vault that Apple currently offers and I'm not aware of any full disk based solutions for Mac.

AidenShaw
Jul 5, 2011, 05:44 PM
See, I've heard both about this, and I don't know which is correct, will it kill the drive or get it back to optimal performance? Do you have any technical articles that can explain this?

As I said, "Just look up '"secure erase" ssd' on your favorite search engine."

You'll see lots of articles, including many that discuss using it to restore performance.

The default effect is to zero all the sectors on the drive - which on an SSD is implemented rather quickly by marking all pages as "free" and "erasing" them. This restores original write performance, since from the factory all the pages are pre-erased and ready for immediate writing. (TRIM" helps ensure a big pool of erased pages ready for writing by letting the OS tell the drive which sectors are not in use. When all the sectors in a page are TRIM'd, the drive can erase that page and put it in the pool.)

A very useful tip that you'll see mentioned repeatedly in those articles is to "under-provision" the drive - if you have a 128 GB drive, create a 120 GB or 112 GB (or 113.323754 GB - it doesn't need to be power-of-2 based) partition when you restore. The space you "waste" becomes a scratch area for the drive to pre-erase pages and keep the performance high, even without TRIM support. The more "wasted" space, the closer to a drive with TRIM you'll get.

A typical "128 GB" drive will really be a 128 GiB drive (137.4 GB) of actual flash storage, and the 9.4 GB will be "under-provisioned" for working space for the SSD controller. A higher-end 120 GB drive will also be 128 GiB, but will leave 17.4 GB under-provisioned.

You can get the same resistance to performance loss as the higher-end drive simply by making the partitions (after the secure erase but before using them) smaller than the max.

Blue Sun
Jul 5, 2011, 06:35 PM
Apple knows what's best for us, we're not cable of deciding that for ourselves, hence the more control Apple has, the better off we are as consumers. I'm sure Steve has a valid reason with our best interests at heart why the ssd will be soldered to the motherboard. We just don't know or understand what it is because he is so many levels above us it is impossible for us to comprehend. The man bears a heavy burden worrying about mankind and how to improve it.

You must be joking, although it is hard to tell.

Rocketman
Jul 5, 2011, 06:38 PM
You must be joking, although it is hard to tell.He was sarcastic but not inaccurate. The advantage of leading and defining the market is your vision becomes the reality.

BTW I know from first hand experience in a considerably smaller market.

Just Rocketman

rdlink
Jul 5, 2011, 06:56 PM
Whats actually the use/market for the MB Air?

I mean, is more expensive and less capable than the samller Mac Book.


Talking out your arse. I had a 15' MBP, and my MBA kicks its butt.

maclaptop
Jul 5, 2011, 07:06 PM
I was planning to limit myself to the smallest capacity SSD and possibly upgrade later. This move would take away that possibility.

And that's exactly why Apple is making this move. It's all about making their products sealed and unserviceable by the user.

Key advantages are all on the Apple side, cost savings will be kept by Apple so as to continue to increase profits, and Steve's smile will grow larger accordingly.

Say good bye to the concept of value for the consumer.

rdlink
Jul 5, 2011, 07:06 PM
iPad already exists.

I think that's what he was sarcastically saying.

I, personally don't like the idea. I have the MBA with the 2.13/4GB RAM/256 GB SSD. I was planning to upgrade the SSD when the prices for aftermarket come down to a reasonable level.

rdlink
Jul 5, 2011, 07:13 PM
For the intended purpose of the Macbook Air, this makes loads of sense. People don't buy Airs to have a mobile powerhouse or anything. They buy it because it's extremely thin, light, portable, durable, and has excellent battery life... all while still being very snappy and useable for all but the most demanding tasks. The more Apple can improve any of those things (while keeping the price reasonable), the better.

People complaining about an un-upgradeable laptop are people who shouldn't be considering a Macbook Air. They should be looking at a Macbook Pro. Sorta like the name suggests ;)

That's a ridiculous statement. I fully expected to be able to upgrade my MBA when I bought it. I, reluctantly accepted the idea of not being able to upgrade RAM, and bought all that was available. But I want to be able to upgrade my storage. Otherwise, why not buy an iOS device? I'm perfectly happy with 7 hours of battery life, but I would not be happy with non-upgradeable/replaceable storage.

bocomoj
Jul 5, 2011, 07:20 PM
Paying $249 to insure something that has a 2.4% chance of failing...

At first I thought you were joking, so I visited the online store. Really, Apple? $249 for AppleCare on a maxed-out Mac Pro Server (price tag: $17,973.00), and the same $249 for a computer that costs less than a grand?

That's effing ridiculous. The cost of AppleCare should be prorated based on the computer's actual (non-retail) replacement cost. Who in their right mind is paying 25% of retail for two extra years of warranty?

You're right. I'm backpedaling on this one. If AppleCare on a MBA was $49, I'd recommend it for peace of mind. Instead, just leave the laptop running non-stop for thirty days. Most manufacturing defects will be revealed in that time.

RWinOR
Jul 5, 2011, 07:30 PM
At first I thought you were joking, so I visited the online store. Really, Apple? $249 for AppleCare on a maxed-out Mac Pro Server (price tag: $17,973.00), and the same $249 for a computer that costs less than a grand?

That's effing ridiculous. The cost of AppleCare should be prorated based on the computer's actual (non-retail) replacement cost. Who in their right mind is paying 25% of retail for two extra years of warranty?

You're right. I'm backpedaling on this one. If AppleCare on a MBA was $49, I'd recommend it for peace of mind. Instead, just leave the laptop running non-stop for thirty days. Most manufacturing defects will be revealed in that time.


Who knows when the MBA's are all soldered SSD's like an iOS devices perhaps the Apple care will drop as well. There will be no user serviceable parts anymore.

That said I still buy Apple Care for all my devices. The piece of mind is worth it to me.

I am still very interested in how/or if this rumor will be implemented. If done correctly, I.E more disk for less money I may be in the market. But if all it does is drive the price up, with no chance for future growth, I will be reconsidering that option.

It is all a matter of trade offs. Do we trade faster/ more disk space for less money and no upgrade path or do we keep the upgrade path, and spend a bit more.

Only time will tell.

flynz4
Jul 5, 2011, 07:50 PM
You mean there's someone out there with a Mac using full disk encryption?
Nobody I know trusts the disk image based File Vault that Apple currently offers and I'm not aware of any full disk based solutions for Mac.

Well... Lion supposedly offers FV2 which is rumored to be really good. Irrespectively, I think it is a much better strategy to never rely on any single piece of hardware to protect their data. I believe in dual automatic backups... one locally for convenience, and a primary backup to the cloud. I do this for all of my machines... so even if all of computers were wiped out at the same time, I still have a backup.

I currently think of my laptops as the weakest link in my data security. If my MBA is stollen, anyone can get all of my data with an install disk despite my strong login passwords. I do keep the most sensitive data encrypted on the machine (Knox vaults) but I still do not like the relative lack of security in OSX. By contrast, at least my iPhone and iPad can be remote wiped... plus they have the "wipe after 10 failed password attempts" enabled.

When I get my new MBA with Lion, I intend to use full disk encryption. Also, when I upgrade the rest of my Macs (currently 2 iMacs and 2 MBAs) to Lion, I'll encrypt the disk on those as well. Of course, this is all dependent on a good implementation by Apple.

/Jim

Burger King
Jul 5, 2011, 08:42 PM
What were some of the complaints when the Ipad was first introduced?

Exposed screen
Macbook Air....solved

No keyboard
Macbook Air....solved

Not enough internal storage
Macbook Air....solved

No external ports
Macbook Air....solved

And I'm sure there are more but the Macbook Air with Lion could be called a hybrid that bridges the gap between an Ipad and and a Macbook Pro.
Apple has something portable for light users in the $500 range up to heavy users in the $2500+ range. A full lineup of products from Apple.......oh wasn't that another complaint?

Some people can't see the forest for the trees.

nizmoz
Jul 5, 2011, 08:57 PM
Talking out your arse. I had a 15' MBP, and my MBA kicks its butt.

Only because of the SSD, put one in that MBP and it will do circles around the MBA.

Nostromo
Jul 5, 2011, 09:36 PM
Wondering if the next generation MBA would be able to run FCP X.

So far, video editing was a no-no an MBA's.

Supa_Fly
Jul 6, 2011, 12:02 AM
All of you saying that this change (if true) doesn't affect you are ignoring the idea that the moment your Mac refuses to boot, it does affect you. Your data can be rescued off of a removable drive (regardless of the form factor) if the motherboard or some other component fails. It can't if the storage is soldered on. Imagine a scenario where the Mac gets immersed or is hit by a surge. You want your data back. Even if you don't ever intend to open your Mac and take out the drive, the technicians you take your Mac to do. But their hands are tied if the drive is not removable. "Too bad, you should have had a current backup" is literally all they'll be able to say.

EVERYONE SHOULD DEMAND REMOVABLE DRIVES IN THEIR COMPUTERS.

Until iCloud fully backs up the settings, configurations, documents & folders, purchased applications fully for Mac OS X via AppStore, I highly doubt that an imbedded (soldered SSD to motherboard) MBA or laptop/PC of any kind would be feasible against lost under regular or extended warranty. Just my opinion ... but TimeCapsule is the argument against that.

powers74
Jul 6, 2011, 12:04 AM
Cloud?

nuckinfutz
Jul 6, 2011, 12:14 AM
At first I thought you were joking, so I visited the online store. Really, Apple? $249 for AppleCare on a maxed-out Mac Pro Server (price tag: $17,973.00), and the same $249 for a computer that costs less than a grand?

That's effing ridiculous. The cost of AppleCare should be prorated based on the computer's actual (non-retail) replacement cost. Who in their right mind is paying 25% of retail for two extra years of warranty?

You're right. I'm backpedaling on this one. If AppleCare on a MBA was $49, I'd recommend it for peace of mind. Instead, just leave the laptop running non-stop for thirty days. Most manufacturing defects will be revealed in that time.

The price reflects cost of servicing. Laptops cost more to service because of their tight configuration as opposed to a desktop computer like a Mac Pro (which isn't going to be be carried around)

Prorating the value doesn't work. Those that buy Apple Care know the probability of a laptop needing repair is likely higher than a desktop. How many people pour liquid into their desktop?

The people that buy AC on laptops know that they will not be shelling out another grand in 3 years to replace their notebook.

Insurance is always a gamble.

flynz4
Jul 6, 2011, 12:33 AM
Until iCloud fully backs up the settings, configurations, documents & folders, purchased applications fully for Mac OS X via AppStore, I highly doubt that an imbedded (soldered SSD to motherboard) MBA or laptop/PC of any kind would be feasible against lost under regular or extended warranty. Just my opinion ... but TimeCapsule is the argument against that.

My first MBA (2009) had a DOA USB port. It took me several months to notice because I pretty much do everything wireless on my MBA. The Apple Store gave me a new MBA and TM recovered it perfectly. Every application, every setting, mail, bookmarks, everything was perfect.

As I said in other posts... I double back up all of my computers. They are backed up locally every hour to TC and they are backed up every 15 minutes to the cloud (Crashplan+). About every month or so, I talk to someone who has lost all of their data because their HDD crashed and they do not back-up. Personally, I think that anyone who trusts there data to a drive is nuts. Once you have a good backup strategy... then there is no worry about your data anymore.

/Jim

SilianRail
Jul 6, 2011, 12:46 AM
The price reflects cost of servicing. Laptops cost more to service because of their tight configuration as opposed to a desktop computer like a Mac Pro (which isn't going to be be carried around)

Prorating the value doesn't work. Those that buy Apple Care know the probability of a laptop needing repair is likely higher than a desktop. How many people pour liquid into their desktop?

The people that buy AC on laptops know that they will not be shelling out another grand in 3 years to replace their notebook.

Insurance is always a gamble.AppleCare does not cover spills. It is burning money, if you can't afford the 1% chance of a hardware failure during years 2 and 3, you can't afford a Mac in the first place.

TrollToddington
Jul 6, 2011, 01:08 AM
AppleCare does not cover spills. It is burning money, if you can't afford the 1% chance of a hardware failure during years 2 and 3, you can't afford a Mac in the first place.No, Apple Care is a smart way to upsell people.

MattInOz
Jul 6, 2011, 01:44 AM
AppleCare does not cover spills. It is burning money, if you can't afford the 1% chance of a hardware failure during years 2 and 3, you can't afford a Mac in the first place.

Other way round...
Applecare covers the shortfall in your contents insurance.
If can't afford to insure your productivity chain you shouldn't be in business.

leftywamumonkey
Jul 6, 2011, 03:13 AM
Is it a mistake when the writer wrote 400Mb/s? Did he actually mean 400MB/s?

bocomoj
Jul 6, 2011, 08:19 AM
The price reflects cost of servicing. Laptops cost more to service because of their tight configuration as opposed to a desktop computer like a Mac Pro (which isn't going to be be carried around)

That would be fine if Apple actually serviced the majority of their faulty hardware, but these days we mostly hear stories of replacement instead. Of course, Apple then services the machine and resells it as a refurb, but seeing as how they are selling the same device twice (the second time being nearly all profit), AppleCare costs shouldn't reflect any of that service work.

RWinOR
Jul 6, 2011, 08:19 AM
AppleCare does not cover spills. It is burning money, if you can't afford the 1% chance of a hardware failure during years 2 and 3, you can't afford a Mac in the first place.

I disagree. I have Apple care on my iOS Devices and MBP. The iMac just expired. This is nice because every time I have any type of issue that I do not understand, I can call, and the Apple care automatically covers all Apple HD. They even cover and help out with my airport routers, which have no Apple care.

Most of my Apple hardware runs perfectly all the time, but there has been several times where my network started conflicting with some of the neighbors. I am NOT an IT person I called Apple care they spent as much time as necessary with me on the phone helping me test different channels and understand what is going on. They never rushed me and we tested everything completely. This was what I call 5 star service.

My brother just came to see me yesterday, he actually has a WiFi network tester. He tested my network and was impress that I was the only one of the 10 he could see that was on its own channel. I no longer collide with the neighbors. This was totally Apple care.

It is SO MUCH more then just replacing bad or damaged hardware. It is piece of mind about all Apple hardware, and setup. I can call almost any time I want, and be talking to a real tech who has knowledge within 5 minutes. Not to mention what is does if you Hardware actually does develop a hiccup and you go to the genius bar.

Apple care highly valued at least by this Apple user.

RWinOR
Jul 6, 2011, 08:24 AM
That would be fine if Apple actually serviced the majority of their faulty hardware, but these days we mostly hear stories of replacement instead. Of course, Apple then services the machine and resells it as a refurb, but seeing as how they are selling the same device twice (the second time being nearly all profit), AppleCare costs shouldn't reflect any of that service work.

Your comments make no sense.

You buy machine 1 it develops a problem.... you have apple care, they give you a brand new machine 2 for free. (who would not like this?)

They take machine 1 back to factory fix it and resell it to recover some of the cost of giving you machine 2 for free. How is this nearly all profit?

If you had to purchase machine 2 and they simply took machine 1 off your hands then your comment would be true, but that is not what happens.