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MacRumors
Jul 5, 2011, 12:07 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/07/05/jon-rubinstein-compares-lukewarm-touchpad-reception-to-original-mac-os-x/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/07/rubinstein_headshot.jpg

As HP has sought to take on Apple in the tablet market with its webOS-powered TouchPad tablet (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/13/hp-preparing-to-take-on-apple-with-touchpad-potential-cloud-based-media-service/), the PC giant has been dinged with a number of lukewarm reviews that suggest a fair amount of potential for the platform and device but with only a mediocre initial implementation.

Former Apple executive Jon Rubinstein, who led the development of the original iPod before leaving the company in 2006 to head up Palm's webOS effort and eventually moving to HP with that company's acquisition of Palm, has reportedly weighed in with a message to HP employees (http://www.precentral.net/jon-rubenstein-sends-message-hp-staff-addresses-touchpad-reviews) regarding the reviews, published by PreCentral. In the note, Rubinstein makes an interesting comparison between the TouchPad and the original Mac OS X as it debuted ten years ago.We still have work to do to make webOS the platform we know it can be, but remember...it's a marathon, not a sprint.

In that spirit, Richard Kerris, head of worldwide developer relations for webOS, reminded me yesterday of the first reviews for a product introduced a little over ten years ago:

"...overall the software is sluggish"
"...there are no quality apps to use, so it won't last"
"...it's just not making sense...."

It's hard to believe these statements described MacOS X - a platform that would go on to change the landscape of Silicon Valley in ways that no one could have imagined.Rubinstein is naturally optimistic in encouraging his staff to keep pressing forward to help webOS and its associated hardware meet expectations, and his unique perspective in having played key roles at Apple, Palm, and now HP enables him to see the parallels and offer conviction that webOS can overcome its challenges.

Palm's webOS has received a fair amount of praise for some aspects of its functionality, but the platform has yet to be a hit with consumers. But with HP putting significant weight behind the platform and moving it into the tablet space while considering licensing (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/29/hp-considering-licensing-webos-samsung-reportedly-interested/) it to other major manufacturers, some have seen webOS as a strong contender to become a potential third major smartphone and tablet operating system for the future behind iOS and Android.

Article Link: Jon Rubinstein Compares Lukewarm TouchPad Reception to Original Mac OS X (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/07/05/jon-rubinstein-compares-lukewarm-touchpad-reception-to-original-mac-os-x/)



nefan65
Jul 5, 2011, 12:11 PM
This guy is delusional. Comparing this to OSX' original rollout? Please...talk about grasping...

nutmac
Jul 5, 2011, 12:12 PM
I wish webOS all the best. iOS 5 and Android 3.1 wouldn't be where they are if it wasn't for webOS. I like webOS in concept, I just wish they execute better in terms of hardware and overall ecosystem.

sziehr
Jul 5, 2011, 12:15 PM
I think he is a little off base. WebOs has no step back where you had OS9 with well established applications to fall back to. There is no fall back for webos if it does not do what you want right now there is no path to get back to a working state like the OSX roll out.

NebulaClash
Jul 5, 2011, 12:16 PM
Absolutely the right thing for him to say, and that's what he should do to rally his troops.

That said, one could make the same claim for any product that initially stumbles out of the gate. That doesn't mean the product will eventually have the OS X level of success, so in that sense what Rubenstein is saying is feel good but not very meaningful. But hey, that's what executives are for, right?

lozpop
Jul 5, 2011, 12:16 PM
What a manager wouldn't say to exalt his employees, but comparing webOS to Mac OS X is .... is ....

tasset
Jul 5, 2011, 12:17 PM
The analogy would be apt if Apple, Google, and Microsoft are to sit on their lead in mobile and not constantly iterate in the coming years (such as Microsoft did with Windows). Then I could see HP catching up. Maybe..
But the way Android and iOS march on and how HP's reach does not seem to have added much to the progress of WebOS, I won't bet on them.

RalfTheDog
Jul 5, 2011, 12:17 PM
Even if it were a good product (I don't know I have never used it), I can't see it being successful. If Microsoft does not have the guns to go up against the big two, Why would anyone think HP could.

Stok3
Jul 5, 2011, 12:18 PM
He is just trying to keep people from comparing the TouchPad to iPad.

GFLPraxis
Jul 5, 2011, 12:19 PM
This guy is delusional. Comparing this to OSX' original rollout? Please...talk about grasping...

I actually agree with him. WebOS' reviews seem very similar to the original OS X rollout- everyone reviewing OS X said, "Tons of potentials, some minor hiccups that need to be ironed out". Arstechnica recently did a review of their OS X 10.0 review that was interesting. WebOS seems to have, at least IMO, the most potential of any iOS competitor. It's being well handled and not fragmenting like Android, it doesn't seem as rushed, haphazard, and developer-unfriendly as the Blackberry Playbook, and it's not as "heavy" as Windows 8.

pik.
Jul 5, 2011, 12:19 PM
webos is the best OS out there till 5.0 iOS comes out....

Really sorry they have not a slate phone as Galaxy S II or HD7...

the potential goes to WP7 these days...

Truffy
Jul 5, 2011, 12:20 PM
What a manager wouldn't say to exalt his employees, but comparing webOS to Mac OS X is .... is ....
He wasn't comparing the two, simply noting that Mac OSX was hardly embraced from the outset. Bad reviews don't always result in failure. The opposite is also true.

Mjmar
Jul 5, 2011, 12:21 PM
It's 2011 now and sluggish software is not acceptable like it was when OSX came out

Iamthinking
Jul 5, 2011, 12:22 PM
Wasn't this war already fought (and decided) a while back with palm's last-gasp smartphone? (which resulted in up buying palm for spare parts).

Why would the outcome of the same battle be any different this time around?

As a long time windows guy I find it very interesting to see the big m$ manufacturers rollout of lame products in an environment where they don't have the backing of 90% software market-share...Apple must be loving this turn of events in the phone/tablet arena.

Iamthinking!

neko girl
Jul 5, 2011, 12:22 PM
When Intel CEO Paul Otellini announced that his company’s chips would be making their way to smartphones, he called the transition “a marathon, not a sprint.” (http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/intel-smartphone-push-postponed-again/)

"Again, like the tablet market, Microsoft says this is not a sprint but a marathon." (http://windows7reports.com/2010/12/27/wp-7-sales-1-5-million-smartphones-shipped-in-6-weeks/)

Interesting that both Intel's and Microsoft's quotes have been tantamount to failure so far in mobile.

theheadguy
Jul 5, 2011, 12:22 PM
Wow, the comments above are quite malicious. Although this guy led the development the now worshiped iPod, his observations are obviously worthless since he doesn't currently work at Apple. :rolleyes:

ValSalva
Jul 5, 2011, 12:23 PM
It's a great set of comments for Rubenstein to make. It keeps up morale. What would anyone expect him to say?

That being said, HP should have done a better job with this first WebOS tablet. The TouchPad will be one of a seeming endless series of tablets that is quickly forgotten. WebOS may be nice but it unfortunately is in the hands of HP which has become a cheap commodity computing company. HP ≠ Innovation.

shompa
Jul 5, 2011, 12:25 PM
I like WebOS. I wish them well.
Palm shoved that a company with small resources can innovate something great. Something that Nokia and other companies could have learned from.

Compering to OSX is strange. The genius behind OSX is the unix foundation. Something that has been developed since 1960.

Are HP hoping to have 50 years refining WebOS before it is in iOS class?

But I do hope that HP license out the OS to other vendors. Competition is good.

Popeye206
Jul 5, 2011, 12:28 PM
Their problem is, all the development efforts by 3rd parties is on Android and iOS. Even MS is having issues attracting apps.

So, even though WebOS could turn into a great OS, there's not a huge burning hole in the market like there was when OSX came out. Plus, Apple used the success of the iPod to attract new customers to the Mac... HP does not have anything like that. They would need something no one else has or totally change the game, not just one-up it. That will not be enough with the dominance of iOS and Android.

tasset
Jul 5, 2011, 12:30 PM
Wow, the comments above are quite malicious. Although this guy led the development the now worshiped iPod, his observations are obviously worthless since he doesn't currently work at Apple. :rolleyes:

I don't see anything derogatory above except perhaps "delusional." I think everyone has been quite hopeful (maybe even too lenient) on HPalm the past couple of years in hopes that they would push the technology further and therefore Apple.
Except for WebOS's multitasking I haven't seen anything that is a leap forward and should make anyone consider over iOS or Android. And that is why people are disappointed.

lunarworks
Jul 5, 2011, 12:30 PM
BeOS was going to be an incredible OS too.

ArtOfWarfare
Jul 5, 2011, 12:30 PM
I actually agree with him. WebOS' reviews seem very similar to the original OS X rollout- everyone reviewing OS X said, "Tons of potentials, some minor hiccups that need to be ironed out". Arstechnica recently did a review of their OS X 10.0 review that was interesting. WebOS seems to have, at least IMO, the most potential of any iOS competitor. It's being well handled and not fragmenting like Android, it doesn't seem as rushed, haphazard, and developer-unfriendly as the Blackberry Playbook, and it's not as "heavy" as Windows 8.

I also agree with him. The reason iOS was able to take over the entire market was because they were the first one to put a real contender out. Mac OS X was hardly the first contender when it was released as computer OS, so it had to deal with the "it's not as good as the others" reviews, and similarly, WebOS is suffering from not being the first touch phone OS.

Small White Car
Jul 5, 2011, 12:31 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Mobile/8J2)

He's not wrong. All the reviews I read talked about its potential.

Other devices the reviewers just say 'it sucks' and leave it at that.

I think that you have to take that into account.

robbieduncan
Jul 5, 2011, 12:31 PM
He's not all that far off base. I remember being able to watch the menus redraw on screen the public beta and 10.0 were that slow. I remember being forced to reboot to OS9 to watch a DVD because there was no DVD playback in OSX.

azentropy
Jul 5, 2011, 12:31 PM
BeOS was going to be an incredible OS too.

It was a great OS, but never had the backing (HP and their resources) WebOS now has.

Winni
Jul 5, 2011, 12:32 PM
This guy is delusional. Comparing this to OSX' original rollout? Please...talk about grasping...

"A leader is a dealer in hope." - Napoleon Bonaparte

I remember very well that nobody wanted to use the original Mac OS X "Cheetah", because it was sluggish and buggy and there was no software for it.

I also remember that it was the iPod, not the Mac, that saved Apple from bankruptcy.

And I also remember that Macs only become quite successful when they transitioned to Intel CPUs and Macs gained the ability to run also run Windows.

No, the guy is not delusional. He's been around for a while, has a lot of industry experience and knows what he is talking about.

batchtaster
Jul 5, 2011, 12:35 PM
Only problem is WebOS doesn't have 10 years. It probably doesn't even have 12 months. They don't have a Mac OS 9 to coast by on until it comes up to speed. They also don't have a fleet of existing devices already out there, working, but itching to be upgraded like Apple had. Apple had already sold the majority of the computers that would run Mac OS X 10.0 and 10.1. They need to try and convince people who don't own an HP or WebOS device to buy one, with an unfinished OS and little more than a promise. The comparison just doesn't hold.

Winni
Jul 5, 2011, 12:35 PM
It's 2011 now and sluggish software is not acceptable like it was when OSX came out

Then why are you still using Mac OS X and iOS? OS X is not known for its blazing performance - that crown goes to Linux, followed by Windows. And iOS... Please. Have you seen Android lately?

NebulaClash
Jul 5, 2011, 12:36 PM
I don't see anything derogatory above except perhaps "delusional."

There are certain things that get included automatically in many MacRumors threads nowadays, whether they fit or not:

"Man, what a bunch of Apple fan boy comments!"

"Apple is teh evil, and this is proof!"

"Android is light years ahead, Apple will never catch up."

etc.

It's white noise. Has little to do with reality. Designed to stir people up, nothing more.

lunarworks
Jul 5, 2011, 12:37 PM
It was a great OS, but never had the backing (HP and their resources) WebOS now has.

All that backing doesn't matter if there's no demand. Demand can be manufactured in some cases, but only if you have the right marketing. HP's going to have to do some very clever marketing.

*LTD*
Jul 5, 2011, 12:38 PM
Except HP is not Apple. And the Touchpad is not game-changing. At all. And to top it off, it's competing *against* Apple's game-changing device.

The TouchPad ship is sinking and good old Ruby's doing damage control. No doubt he remembers his short (and rather anticlimactic) time with Palm.

ArtOfWarfare
Jul 5, 2011, 12:38 PM
Only problem is WebOS doesn't have 10 years. It probably doesn't even have 12 months.

It didn't take Mac OS X 10 years to become a great alternative to Windows. Only 2 or 3, right?

neko girl
Jul 5, 2011, 12:39 PM
Except HP is not Apple.
Someone should tell HP that.
http://distillery.s3.amazonaws.com/media/2011/07/01/0354d59f1d8149d78c646609d6b84254_7.jpg

Mjmar
Jul 5, 2011, 12:43 PM
Then why are you still using Mac OS X and iOS? OS X is not known for its blazing performance - that crown goes to Linux, followed by Windows. And iOS... Please. Have you seen Android lately?

You're joking right? The reason why I switched to Mac was because of Vista's sluggish performance, and my 3 year old MacBook is snappier than ever with Snow Leopard. iOS is also blazing fast on the iPhone 4 and iPad 2, and the reason why Android has mixed performance is because of handset fragmentation... It runs great on the best hardware. HP is a very big company and churning out a sluggish tablet OS that only needs to run on one piece of hardware is just unacceptable by today's standards.

tkermit
Jul 5, 2011, 12:47 PM
No, the guy is not delusional. He's been around for a while, has a lot of industry experience and knows what he is talking about.

Steve Jobs once claimed he would trust Rubinstein with his life. Wonder if he still feels that way.

inkswamp
Jul 5, 2011, 12:49 PM
Rubenstein is right that OS X was pretty unimpressive in its debut, but the obvious difference here is that OS X, for all its shortcomings, had a built-in audience of millions of Mac users ready to go. TouchPad does not.

MacAddict1978
Jul 5, 2011, 12:52 PM
This guy is delusional. Comparing this to OSX' original rollout? Please...talk about grasping...

How is that grasping? OSX was seen as a disaster when it launched. People want to fan boy so much, but OSX showed potential... but stunk until 10.2.5 or something of the like. In all honesty, Web OS might have more going for it than OSX did at launch. Today, Apple would never have released OSX in it's first issue, but Apple was also teetering on Bankruptcy when OSX came out and was in a fight for our life state as a company. If there's anything off about the comparison, it would only be the situational difference between the two companies. HP isn't on the verge of extinction. Sadly.

res1233
Jul 5, 2011, 12:52 PM
He's not all that far off base. I remember being able to watch the menus redraw on screen the public beta and 10.0 were that slow. I remember being forced to reboot to OS9 to watch a DVD because there was no DVD playback in OSX.

That's true, however OS X wasn't the default OS for at least 10.0 and I think 10.1. Apple knew OS X wasn't usable as a default OS yet, and they included Classic so people could have the best of both worlds. Palm OS had its market segment, yet they abandoned the platform with no attempt at compatibility. Not only does that alienate current devs, but it doesn't exactly encourage new devs to come on board.

citi
Jul 5, 2011, 12:54 PM
Even if it were a good product (I don't know I have never used it), I can't see it being successful. If Microsoft does not have the guns to go up against the big two, Why would anyone think HP could.

Let me help you:

The BIG TWO did not start out as the big two. Why would anyone think HP couldn't?

nefan65
Jul 5, 2011, 12:55 PM
Then why are you still using Mac OS X and iOS? OS X is not known for its blazing performance - that crown goes to Linux, followed by Windows. And iOS... Please. Have you seen Android lately?

Wow, that last statement is comical. OSX has outperformed any Windows machine I've used, and with less memory and slower CPU. Yes, a bare bones Linux box will outperform both, but that's not Linux. A NetBSD Unix box, or FreeBSD Unix box will do the same. Linux ala UBUNTU on like hardware as OSX is the same. I've done the tests, and honestly there's little to no difference in the results. And I'm not talking about "eye tests", but actual tests.

As for Android? Again, wow. I've used a few Android devices, and none of them are as fluid, smooth, or responsive as my iPhone 4.

We could go back/forth all day on this. Based on your sig, I can see why you feel like you do about your Android statement; you own one, so you're justifying your purchase. We all do that...

Popeye206
Jul 5, 2011, 12:57 PM
Then why are you still using Mac OS X and iOS? OS X is not known for its blazing performance - that crown goes to Linux, followed by Windows. And iOS... Please. Have you seen Android lately?

Hummm.... why are you here would be a better question?

Linux is fast, but not for the masses. OSX more than does the job and I don't have to monkey with anything and Apple makes some of the best hardware on the market. That's why OSX is winning.

As for Android? You have to be kidding right? I've seen good performance and bad based on what handset? Besides... it's more than about specs and how techie you can get with something that matters to most. It's about how it works, how it's supported, how easy it is. Sorry... Android is great for those who want to tinker... but so is a jail broken iOS. For the masses... Android is a great alternative to what was there, but Apple is still winning in more area's than loosing.

I wish people would remember that the techie crowed makes up a very small percentage of customers. Most consumers want simple, easy and reliable.

MacAddict1978
Jul 5, 2011, 12:57 PM
Rubenstein is right that OS X was pretty unimpressive in its debut, but the obvious difference here is that OS X, for all its shortcomings, had a built-in audience of millions of Mac users ready to go. TouchPad does not.

I would argue that idea too. OSX was such a huge departure from everything before it. It scared a lot of Mac users. People were not actually lining up for OSX when it came out like they did years later ala "Night Of The Panter" where an OSX release was like a festival near your local Apple store. For all intent and purpose, OSX was more like a brand new OS than something that was a new version or upgrade.

HP has going for it too that they sell a ton of pc's every year, and are going to be pushing out Web OS on one they sell. So they kind of will have millions of built in users too.

nefan65
Jul 5, 2011, 12:58 PM
How is that grasping? OSX was seen as a disaster when it launched. People want to fan boy so much, but OSX showed potential... but stunk until 10.2.5 or something of the like. In all honesty, Web OS might have more going for it than OSX did at launch. Today, Apple would never have released OSX in it's first issue, but Apple was also teetering on Bankruptcy when OSX came out and was in a fight for our life state as a company. If there's anything off about the comparison, it would only be the situational difference between the two companies. HP isn't on the verge of extinction. Sadly.

He's making a comparison of something that isn't [excuse the PUN] Apples/Apples :D

He should have made the reference to Android, or iOS. Different circumstances, systems, etc...IMO.

boodyup
Jul 5, 2011, 01:01 PM
He sounds like a really cool executive. Rather than lying to everyone (including himself) about their awesome product, he's admitting that it's not as well received as some of the other products out there. At the same time, he is very positive and encouraging that they will continue to march forward and refine the product.I think that's a pretty cool thing.

I've seen a video or two of webOS and I think it has enormous potential. It really looks like it got a lot of things right with multi-tasking, notifications, etc. I wish that team the best of luck and to give Apple a run for its money.

nefan65
Jul 5, 2011, 01:02 PM
Hummm.... why are you here would be a better question?

Linux is fast, but not for the masses. OSX more than does the job and I don't have to monkey with anything and Apple makes some of the best hardware on the market. That's why OSX is winning.

As for Android? You have to be kidding right? I've seen good performance and bad based on what handset? Besides... it's more than about specs and how techie you can get with something that matters to most. It's about how it works, how it's supported, how easy it is. Sorry... Android is great for those who want to tinker... but so is a jail broken iOS. For the masses... Android is a great alternative to what was there, but Apple is still winning in more area's than loosing.

I wish people would remember that the techie crowed makes up a very small percentage of customers. Most consumers want simple, easy and reliable.

Your last comment hit the nail on the head; really. The ROOT/JB crowd is the minority, and a small one at that! Line up 100 people, and ask them if they've "ROOTED" or "JB" their phone, and 1 or 2 may respond. Others will look confused...

inkswamp
Jul 5, 2011, 01:04 PM
I would argue that idea too. OSX was such a huge departure from everything before it. It scared a lot of Mac users. People were not actually lining up for OSX when it came out like they did years later ala "Night Of The Panter" where an OSX release was like a festival near your local Apple store. For all intent and purpose, OSX was more like a brand new OS than something that was a new version or upgrade.

HP has going for it too that they sell a ton of pc's every year, and are going to be pushing out Web OS on one they sell. So they kind of will have millions of built in users too.

You're right about that. OS X did scare a lot of Mac users which is why Apple included the classic environment in early versions of OS X, to ease the existing user base into OS X.

I disagree with you, however, that HP has an equivalent user base for TouchPad. You're making the leap from HP products to TouchPad. Apple had a user base that very much wanted to avoid switching to Windows, so they went along with the OS X transition. That's a much different mindset than someone who owns an HP box. I don't think most of those users give a rip about how WebOS affects their future.

So, I think HP is starting from the ground floor. To compare that to OS X's launch (which, as someone already pointed out, wasn't even the default OS X on new Macs until 10.2) is disingenuous on Rubenstein's part. He's covering his ass for what appears to be a weak product launch.

nagromme
Jul 5, 2011, 01:07 PM
OS X was dual-boot, and not even the default at first!

That makes this a good analogy... as long as the TouchPad ships running iOS by default (or some other complete tablet OS with a full software selection—but there is none yet). Thus making the hardware functional and worth buying—and then you can boot into WebOS only by intentional choice, the way early adopters would do with OS X when it first came out. WebOS would only become the default (and then the only) OS for TouchPad once it’s really ready and has the app ecosystem in place. Meanwhile, of course, Universal Binaries would have to allow WebOS to run all those iOS applications. That was vital to smooth the Mac transition by allowing a large existing user base to keep doing what they want and need.

I wish WebOS well, but this analogy only goes so far :o

Popeye206
Jul 5, 2011, 01:11 PM
Good analogy, as long as the TouchPad ships running iOS (or some other complete tablet OS with a full software selection—but there is none yet) by default. Thus making the hardware functional and worth buying—and then you can boot into WebOS only by intentional choice, the way you would do with OS X when it first came out. WebOS would only become the default for TouchPad once it’s really ready. Meanwhile, of course, Universal Binaries would have to allow WebOS to run all those iOS applications to smooth the transition by allowing a large existing user base to keep doing what they want and need.

I wish WebOS well, but this analogy only goes so far :o

There is no market need for WebOS. iOS and Android have filled the void.

So to win, HP will have to do something like the iPod did for Apple and their not going to do it by making a "me too" tablet that has more disadvantages than advantages.

HP would be better off creating something no one else has. But as Apple has shown us again and again... it's not easy to be first.

La Porta
Jul 5, 2011, 01:15 PM
One thing is not very accurate here. "no quality apps" does not apply the same way. OS X had Classic to fall back on for all the legacy apps. What do these tablets have to fall back on? Nothing. There REALLY is a lack of apps for these tablets, no legacy library to fall back on.

Sabenth
Jul 5, 2011, 01:18 PM
welll i say fair play too the bloke he made the ipod come to life ok its moved on since then but heck we still have them around.

NebulaClash
Jul 5, 2011, 01:19 PM
By the way, slightly off-topic, but my experience with the Mac dates to the introduction of OS X. I heard what Apple was planning to do with OS X and switched immediately even though my first Powerbook was running OS 9 at the time. I knew OS X was what I wanted. So while some existing users were scared by the change, this was what brought me (and others) to the platform.

*LTD*
Jul 5, 2011, 01:24 PM
There is no market need for WebOS. iOS and Android have filled the void.

So to win, HP will have to do something like the iPod did for Apple and their not going to do it by making a "me too" tablet that has more disadvantages than advantages.

HP would be better off creating something no one else has. But as Apple has shown us again and again... it's not easy to be first.

Ruby already had his chance with Palm. Nothing happened. We've seen WebOS, it's already made its impression, and it's done. Consumers weren't interested then, despite heavy promotion of the the Pre, so why should they care now when it's shoved into a subpar tablet?

Ruby's asking HP employees to understand. They probably will, because HP makes other products. Consumers, however, don't buy products out of kindness and belief in future potential. Especially not in this market.

Popeye206
Jul 5, 2011, 01:29 PM
Ruby already had his chance with Palm. Nothing happened. We've seen WebOS, it's already made its impression, and it's done. Consumers weren't interested then, despite heavy promotion of the the Pre, so why should they care now when it's shoved into a subpar tablet?

Ruby's asking HP employees to understand. They probably will, because HP makes other products. Consumers, however, don't buy products out of kindness and belief in future potential. Especially not in this market.

HP should focus on the ultra portable market (like the MBA) and making more innovations in printing tech. That is more up their alley.

Last thing consumers want to buy into is another mobile OS. Heck, Android based devices are having enough problems. You can toss the Playbook into the same category as HP.... but at least BB has some loyal customers still. I think? :p

MacRumorUser
Jul 5, 2011, 01:31 PM
There is a serious issue with what he is saying and a gaping void in his analogy.



His comparison was to 10.1 the original OSX.

The failing and criticism of the HP touchpad is based on WebOS 3. The 3rd generation of that operating system.


The third incarnation of WebOS and it is still failing to live up-to it's potential (and yes I am a Pre 2 owner), however by the time OSX was in it's 3rd incarnation it had improved immeasurably from it's original form. So his analogy is flawed.

biggreydog
Jul 5, 2011, 01:35 PM
MS Windows 1.0 was pretty crappy too, but look what it evolved into! Oh wait - never mind.

seek3r
Jul 5, 2011, 01:35 PM
There is no market need for WebOS. iOS and Android have filled the void.

So to win, HP will have to do something like the iPod did for Apple and their not going to do it by making a "me too" tablet that has more disadvantages than advantages.

HP would be better off creating something no one else has. But as Apple has shown us again and again... it's not easy to be first.

I don't agree with you honestly. I think HP is targetting a more professional market than apple, and it's a market which is *not* saturated (and the playbook has been a complete flop, so their only credible threat there is floundering). HP has the clout to make it there, they certainly have the influence with CIOs and such (if you're on the internet, chances are at some point your data is transiting HP switches and being processed on HP servers). The OS *is* pretty slick, it just has some bugs which I expect to see ironed out soon.

I don't think HP's about to threaten the iPad/iPhone ecosystem, but they may be about to shank RIM.

cube
Jul 5, 2011, 01:37 PM
OS X was great since day one. That's why I bought my first Mac with OS 9, because Unix-based OS X was coming, otherwise I would have never got one.

Kwill
Jul 5, 2011, 01:37 PM
http://cdn.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/07/rubinstein_headshot.jpg

"Trust me. The glitches will be worked out and we'll sell tens of millions. Haven't I told you this before?"

Signed,

The NeXT Steve Jobs

P.S. That Palm snafu was all part of the master plan.

thejadedmonkey
Jul 5, 2011, 01:38 PM
What a manager wouldn't say to exalt his employees, but comparing webOS to Mac OS X is .... is ....

It quite right! Then OS X 10.0 came out, it was dog slow. Pretty, functional, but dog slow. And there were no applications for it.

The Web OS Tablet is.. wait for it... dog slow. Pretty, functional, but dog slow. And there are no appliucations for it.

The only real difference between the two is one uses the past tense (were) while the other uses present tense (are).

As an ex-Apple guy, he would know.

bpaluzzi
Jul 5, 2011, 01:38 PM
Then why are you still using Mac OS X and iOS? OS X is not known for its blazing performance - that crown goes to Linux, followed by Windows. And iOS... Please. Have you seen Android lately?

Your statements have absolutely no basis in reality. As usual.

cmaier
Jul 5, 2011, 01:41 PM
Then why are you still using Mac OS X and iOS? OS X is not known for its blazing performance - that crown goes to Linux, followed by Windows. And iOS... Please. Have you seen Android lately?

Huh?


Ruby already had his chance with Palm. Nothing happened. We've seen WebOS, it's already made its impression, and it's done. Consumers weren't interested then, despite heavy promotion of the the Pre, so why should they care now when it's shoved into a subpar tablet?

Ruby's asking HP employees to understand. They probably will, because HP makes other products. Consumers, however, don't buy products out of kindness and belief in future potential. Especially not in this market.

The problem with WebOS is ecosystem, not the OS itself. Maybe HP will provide one.

Consultant
Jul 5, 2011, 01:49 PM
What a joke. Apple was a small player when OS X was introduced.

HP is the largest PC maker (for now). Huge differences in terms of resource availability.

DiamondMac
Jul 5, 2011, 02:00 PM
Yes, he has a point. His point is that his product is currently as good/sluggish as MacOSX years ago.

So, why is that a good thing?

Usually when a product is released it is up-to-par or better than other devices on the market.....not comparing themselves to years ago software.

i.mac
Jul 5, 2011, 02:13 PM
Rubinstein forgets one small detail: he is not Steve Jobs.


He is bad even when trying to copy what apple/Jobs have done ith the iPad. Go figure.

TeamMojo
Jul 5, 2011, 02:15 PM
The trouble is that unlike with the initial rollout of Mac OS X, the competition for HP is not going to stay static. Apple had nothing to lose with the lameness of Windows ME/2000/NT at the time. But Apple is going to innovate and have a vibrant Developer community no matter what HP does. The only way to win is to go above and beyond Apple. Make it a controlled app store like Apple, but a little more open. Make Developer licenses all free, but with the same great tools like XCode and the Developer portal. Make new features for the OS that Apple had not even thought of. Court business more than Apple, etc.

Apple has spent more than two decades building the ecosystem behind all of this. So the above is a REALLY tall order. I don't see it happening.

i.mac
Jul 5, 2011, 02:16 PM
It quite right! Then OS X 10.0 came out, it was dog slow. Pretty, functional, but dog slow. And there were no applications for it.

The Web OS Tablet is.. wait for it... dog slow. Pretty, functional, but dog slow. And there are no appliucations for it.

The only real difference between the two is one uses the past tense (were) while the other uses present tense (are).

As an ex-Apple guy, he would know.

Also, Mac os x was a new innovation at the time. HP bad tablet is a bad copy of the iPad.

Rot'nApple
Jul 5, 2011, 02:23 PM
I actually agree with him. WebOS' reviews seem very similar to the original OS X rollout- everyone reviewing OS X said, "Tons of potentials, some minor hiccups that need to be ironed out". Arstechnica recently did a review of their OS X 10.0 review that was interesting. WebOS seems to have, at least IMO, the most potential of any iOS competitor. It's being well handled and not fragmenting like Android, it doesn't seem as rushed, haphazard, and developer-unfriendly as the Blackberry Playbook, and it's not as "heavy" as Windows 8.

Okay, but June 2011 (HP Touchpad with webOS released 6/19/11 for preorders and 7/1/11 for sale (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/09/hp-touchpad-release-date-price_n_873791.html)) isn't the first iteration of WebOS. Palm webOS was introduced in January 2009 as the successor to Palm OS. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebOS) While webOS had to be optimized for a tablet and has had a few new features added, it's not technically the OS first release, so wouldn't you need to find me a Arstechnia review of OS X 2 1/2 years after the release of the original OS X and what were the reviews saying of OS X then?
/
/
/

mdriftmeyer
Jul 5, 2011, 02:24 PM
I enjoyed seeing him working back with all my fellow NeXT colleagues but he's wrong assessing the popularity of the TouchPad to OS X.

The TouchPad is akin to a failed NeXTStation minus the technical prowess that was the NeXTStation relative to it's competition back in the day.

Jon never has been a visionary. He's a great engineer who knows how to execute the vision of others. He's also no salesman. It's not in his personality.

His need to try and be the next Steve is him overshooting his talents.

jegbook
Jul 5, 2011, 02:28 PM
Wow, the comments above are quite malicious. But, what else is there to be expected from born-again fanboys here on MR these days? Although this guy led the development the now worshiped iPod, his observations are obviously worthless since he doesn't currently work at Apple. :rolleyes:

Sounds like trolling to me.

As another poster pointed out in response to this post, the comments have been largely positive. I think this is probably the most negative post.

Someone else also mentioned the difference of a pre-established user base, which is the biggest difference in my mind for the comparison of Web OS to OS X.
There were millions of Mac users motivated (and forced) to go to the new OS. For WebOS, folks will just have to want to and/or be compelled to. And OS X only competed with one other eastablished operating system (realistically). WebOS is competing with at least two, three if you count Windows Phone 7.

But I am all for competition, so I wish them the best! The better they do the better things get for all of us.

blenditall
Jul 5, 2011, 02:34 PM
Haven't tried anything HP lately, so I went to their website. You have to give them credit for their sense of humour...

"Get productive, or at least fake it really well with a brilliantly large screen, and the ability to multitask like a champion of multitasking."

slackpacker
Jul 5, 2011, 02:34 PM
Sorry no excuses this time around my friend .... Your not the first tablet on the block.

#1 you have Apple to contend with that's on its 5th or more major rev of its software.

#2 You have Microsoft showing off what a Tablet really should be .... a portable desktop.

JR you can't be late to the party and have excuses..... RIMM is experiencing this now.

Rot'nApple
Jul 5, 2011, 02:36 PM
Wow, the comments above are quite malicious. Although this guy led the development the now worshiped iPod, his observations are obviously worthless since he doesn't currently work at Apple. :rolleyes:

I have never owned an iPod.

But did't "this guy" leech off Apple's iTunes (http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/palm-webos-1-1-now-available-fixes-itunes-sync/) to make his new Palm product work? Grant it, he may have been the brains behind iTunes. I don't know, but if he were, why not just create a Palm version? Or might that take too long to do as well as develop a client side of it?

Leeching off of Apple for leeching's sake gets you no friends here at MacRumors and I'd be the first in line with my comments and "EEK!" emoticon :eek:! :D
:apple:
:apple:
:apple:

LeoNobilis
Jul 5, 2011, 02:44 PM
This guy is delusional. Comparing this to OSX' original rollout? Please...talk about grasping...

Do you know a thing about that "guy"? I don't think you do. Have you ever WebOS demo? Apparently, not. Keep your judgement to yourself, then.

linux2mac
Jul 5, 2011, 02:45 PM
When Intel CEO Paul Otellini announced that his company’s chips would be making their way to smartphones, he called the transition “a marathon, not a sprint.” (http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/intel-smartphone-push-postponed-again/)

"Again, like the tablet market, Microsoft says this is not a sprint but a marathon." (http://windows7reports.com/2010/12/27/wp-7-sales-1-5-million-smartphones-shipped-in-6-weeks/)

Interesting that both Intel's and Microsoft's quotes have been tantamount to failure so far in mobile.

Seems to be a "sprint" now as Microsoft will be rushing Windows 8 to market to compete with iPad3. LOL!!

Microsoft Will Rush Windows 8 To Market To Compete With iPad 3
http://www.cultofmac.com/microsoft-will-rush-windows-8-to-market-to-compete-with-the-ipad-3/102557

jegbook
Jul 5, 2011, 02:46 PM
Let me help you:

The BIG TWO did not start out as the big two. Why would anyone think HP couldn't?

Is it fair to say (in all seriousness) that the big two weren't competing with anything to become what they are?

I guess that's not quite right. There was BlackBerry and Windows Mobile (5 and 6), but in essence, iOS and Android created the touchscreen multimedia Internet device (which also happens to be a phone) market. It's a lot easier to become a giant in an industry when you have no competition.

One could even argue that Apple created the market for the multimedia Internet phone, then Google took advantage of the fact that the market was only available for one cell carrier and created their version for everyone else.

It all doesn't quite work out that simply, but that seems the general gist of things.
But WebOS has some serious competition with very established user bases. Not an easy task.

psimac
Jul 5, 2011, 02:47 PM
Talk about working the PR angle.


OSX is a computer OS not a tablet OS
OSX could run on existing hardware with a strong installed base
OSX had the ability to run OS9 applications, so instantly had thousands of applications available to run
That was 10 years ago!


Simply an idiotic comparison to get press. Weak.

LeoNobilis
Jul 5, 2011, 02:49 PM
I wish webOS all the best. iOS 5 and Android 3.1 wouldn't be where they are if it wasn't for webOS. I like webOS in concept, I just wish they execute better in terms of hardware and overall ecosystem.

Indeed, hardware (most particularly, those tiny screens and slide-out keyboards), marketing and distribution: in much of Europe no WebOS devices are sold. That's not going to help.
But the OS, particularly the user interface, the graphics, etc. -is superb. As appealing as iOS, to me at least.

kdarling
Jul 5, 2011, 02:50 PM
A lot of good comments in this thread.

It's a rare thing for an OS to be liked so much, even when it's fallen on hard times. If it were not for the small screen size and lack of a few apps, I might still be using a WebOS phone. (My oldest daughter still does.)

HP certainly has the resources and product depth to make WebOS a widely used system.

They already have shown the flick from phone to tablet thing, now add in broad printer support and desktops running WebOS.

IMO, the key is that HP needs is to stay committed for a few years. Don't flinch. Listen to your developers and users. Make great tools. Give us a large slab phone. Do like MS and contract out some app development, right now... it'll pay back many times over.

Good luck, HP!

*LTD*
Jul 5, 2011, 02:52 PM
Good job, Ruby.

Pay Apple a compliment like that publicly (essentially gushing with praise) when you want to sell your HP product, competing against Apple's star product.

Morale on your team must be sky-high now.

Why even mention Apple at all??

mnb
Jul 5, 2011, 02:57 PM
Rubenstein is an incompetent boob. He was a screw up at Apple and he's screwing up HP.

wizard
Jul 5, 2011, 03:13 PM
Even if it were a good product (I don't know I have never used it), I can't see it being successful. If Microsoft does not have the guns to go up against the big two, Why would anyone think HP could.

Seriously why do you think MS fails here? There is no champion at MS with the vision to produce a product suitable for the future.

As to HP, all they really need to do is to partner with the right people to fill in some of the blanks. For example Amazon for music. They don't need all of the iTunes infrastructure, all they need is the right software and back up techniques. The more that I use my iPad the more that I realize that key apps make a big contribution to using the device.

Honestly I do hope Touchpad is successful. Why? Well simple, I think HP might be a tiny bit more ethical that the Google team.

marksman
Jul 5, 2011, 03:13 PM
I expected the HP Web OS touchpad to be the one competitor to actually give Apple a bit of competition in the tablet space, but it seems like that will not be the case.

Seems like Apple will continue their dominance in the tablet space for at least another 12-18 months which by then maybe we will see someone come up with a real competitive product. The only problem is the iPad will be 12-18 months further along in its development at that time.

None of this is really suprising though. Some of us knew the main reason why Apple did not show the same kind of dominance in the phone market was simply due to the quirkyness of how the cell phone market works. Given a flat playing field where the best product always wins out, the iPhone would have likely showed the kind of dominance the iPad is showing. So what the iPad is doing should not be a surprise to anyone.

Like I said though, of all the competitors who were potentially going to make a product when the iPad came out, the HP / Web OS combo was the one I had the most hope in.

wizard
Jul 5, 2011, 03:26 PM
You're joking right? The reason why I switched to Mac was because of Vista's sluggish performance, and my 3 year old MacBook is snappier than ever with Snow Leopard. iOS is also blazing fast on the iPhone 4 and iPad 2, and the reason why Android has mixed performance is because of handset fragmentation... It runs great on the best hardware. HP is a very big company and churning out a sluggish tablet OS that only needs to run on one piece of hardware is just unacceptable by today's standards.

Well HP has to start somewhere. As to iOS; yeah it is great today but people have short memories. It took Apple a long time to stabilize iOS and get it to the point it is today.

The real question is how long will it take HP to iron out the major bugs and offer up the services that iOS users love. Given that even with the little bumps here and there it is still the best tablet OS next to Apples.

kiljoy616
Jul 5, 2011, 03:28 PM
I do see the similarity, the problem is that its not the Palm OS that is the problem, that can be fixed with just one update or two if they put real effort behind it. The problem is that the Hardware just plain sucks, its ugly and considering they are trying to bring in something new I would have expected HP would have put more effort into the hardware. R&D is there for a reason, but HP like so many computer companies just does not put effort into bringing consumer products people want to buy.

Look at cisco, makes sense their tablet but dam does it look hideous that only an IT department would implement.

revelated
Jul 5, 2011, 03:29 PM
I actually agree with him. WebOS' reviews seem very similar to the original OS X rollout- everyone reviewing OS X said, "Tons of potentials, some minor hiccups that need to be ironed out". Arstechnica recently did a review of their OS X 10.0 review that was interesting. WebOS seems to have, at least IMO, the most potential of any iOS competitor. It's being well handled and not fragmenting like Android, it doesn't seem as rushed, haphazard, and developer-unfriendly as the Blackberry Playbook, and it's not as "heavy" as Windows 8.

Here's the problem. webOS isn't "new". Palm was having a lot of these same issues with webOS YEARS ago. HP hasn't fixed the core problems with the OS.

As I understand it - and I jumped ship away from Apple right around their near death experience - Apple went back to the drawing board when it went to Unix and started developing out Mac OS which was part of the reason for their issues, but Mac OS shares very little in terms of similarities with the old System OS...common items are basically the Finder, the Apple menu, AppleScript (which isn't really the same), and the fact that they still call it "Macintosh HD" if I remember my old System OS machines. So for all intents and purposes, Mac OS was a brand new operating system.

webOS doesn't have that excuse. It's not new. It's the exact same thing it's always been save for a few refinements. I get conceptually what he's saying, but it's a flawed directive. They rushed it to market, period. Palm likely would have done the same thing. But I expected better of HP.

On a side note, he looks like a deflated Steven Seagal.

cmaier
Jul 5, 2011, 03:29 PM
Well HP has to start somewhere. As to iOS; yeah it is great today but people have short memories. It took Apple a long time to stabilize iOS

No it didn't.


and get it to the point it is today.


That's a meaningless truism.

wizard
Jul 5, 2011, 03:33 PM
You blew yourself out of the water. IPhone is doing very well in the market right now, no other single model sells as well.

As to TouchPad did you understand what was said? Most reviews like the interface but down grade it for sluggishness. That sluggishness can be dealt with with bug fixes and updates. The way I read the reviews TouchPad is the only viable alternative to iPad.

Frankly you talk about hope but demonstrate a total unwillingness to give the device a few day on the market. Either your hope is extremely shallow or you memory extremely short, as I've said before iPhone OS was pretty crappy out of the box. It would be better to see what is up 3 and 6 months from now.

I expected the HP Web OS touchpad to be the one competitor to actually give Apple a bit of competition in the tablet space, but it seems like that will not be the case.

Seems like Apple will continue their dominance in the tablet space for at least another 12-18 months which by then maybe we will see someone come up with a real competitive product. The only problem is the iPad will be 12-18 months further along in its development at that time.

None of this is really suprising though. Some of us knew the main reason why Apple did not show the same kind of dominance in the phone market was simply due to the quirkyness of how the cell phone market works. Given a flat playing field where the best product always wins out, the iPhone would have likely showed the kind of dominance the iPad is showing. So what the iPad is doing should not be a surprise to anyone.

Like I said though, of all the competitors who were potentially going to make a product when the iPad came out, the HP / Web OS combo was the one I had the most hope in.

WestonHarvey1
Jul 5, 2011, 03:37 PM
The problem with his comparison is that even if true, the comparison has no predictive power. A lot of products have a rocky start, and invoking the similar beginnings of OS X isn't some talisman that makes your product likely to succeed.

All WebOS's problems pale in comparison to its biggest problem - it isn't iOS, it isn't an iPad. Improving the quality isn't going to change that.

kiljoy616
Jul 5, 2011, 03:40 PM
BeOS was going to be an incredible OS too.

And for someone who actually used it,BeOS 4, it was, but you need money and lots of it to compete and change the human monkey mind set once its set.:D

BeOS could not change because it lacked what made windows great, Games! Lets not kid our selves forget Apps for work, what people want to see on tablets what ever version is games, games, games.

Will there be lots of games for the WebOS or will it just have a few 100 programs only a select few will want? I don't see it going far but who knows stranger things have happen. I for one will stay with the coolest hardware a company makes and that the iPad and if the iPad 3 has "retina" I can't even see anyone except die hard hatter of Apple getting anything else.

Skoal
Jul 5, 2011, 03:43 PM
As far as I'm concerned the success of OSX can be directly attributed to the iPod, iPhone, and now the iPad. I think more Mac's are being sold due to that than anything.

wizard
Jul 5, 2011, 03:45 PM
No it didn't.

Well believe what you want but frankly you are blowing your credibility here. I had a 3G within a few weeks of intro and frankly was appalled at the issues that phone had. Significant issues like not connecting. Thankfully those days have passed.

Honestly I think many people here have extremely short memories and don't remember the frequent updates. It is an entirely different story now a days, updates come to deliver major features instead of a laundry list of bug fixes.

That's a meaningless truism.

Beyond that the SDK exposed the fact that their where numerous is or bugs if you will in the software. It wasn't a figment of my imagination.

In any event the general tone in this thread seems to imply that iOS is and always was "perfect". That hasn't been the case (no OS is perfect) but early adopters had issues far more damning than those detailed for the TouchPad.

*LTD*
Jul 5, 2011, 03:50 PM
All WebOS's problems pale in comparison to its biggest problem - it isn't iOS, it isn't an iPad. Improving the quality isn't going to change that.

You pretty much nailed it.

Unless you're Apple you're going to have an incredibly difficult time competing in the tablet space, mostly because you need to have everything set up - ecosystem, apps, everything - even before your product hits the shelves. And THEN, you'll need to pull a game-changing rabbit out of your hat in order to differentiate yourself 100% from Apple. And I'm talking the kind of differentiation that gets consumers excited and lining up en masse.

And THEN (yes, there's more), you've got all that Apple mindshare and brand perception to get past. Most of these competing tablets are dead before they even hit the shelves. Killed in the womb.

The tablet space isn't like the smartphone space. At all.

Rodimus Prime
Jul 5, 2011, 03:52 PM
Even if it were a good product (I don't know I have never used it), I can't see it being successful. If Microsoft does not have the guns to go up against the big two, Why would anyone think HP could.

I believe MS is going up against them with Windows 8.
Their problem is, all the development efforts by 3rd parties is on Android and iOS. Even MS is having issues attracting apps.

So, even though WebOS could turn into a great OS, there's not a huge burning hole in the market like there was when OSX came out. Plus, Apple used the success of the iPod to attract new customers to the Mac... HP does not have anything like that. They would need something no one else has or totally change the game, not just one-up it. That will not be enough with the dominance of iOS and Android.

I believe WP is hitting the milestones at a faster pace than Apple App store did or the Android one.
THey hit 1k 10k ect in much shorter time span. MS is using there deep pockets to get WP7 off the ground and going.

I think in this case HP is going to use its deeper pockets to get WebOS really going. Palms biggest problem was they just did not have the money to do it.

cmaier
Jul 5, 2011, 03:54 PM
Well believe what you want but frankly you are blowing your credibility here. I had a 3G within a few weeks of intro and frankly was appalled at the issues that phone had. Significant issues like not connecting. Thankfully those days have passed.

I have owned two or more of every model (albeit not every color and RAM variation) since the first version. I have never had any "significant issues," and neither have most people.

There have been a ton of major updates and new features, but stability has always been a strong suit (other than developer beta releases).


Beyond that the SDK exposed the fact that their where numerous is or bugs if you will in the software. It wasn't a figment of my imagination.


What's an example of a bug that was exposed by the SDK?

inkswamp
Jul 5, 2011, 03:54 PM
Talk about working the PR angle.


OSX is a computer OS not a tablet OS
OSX could run on existing hardware with a strong installed base
OSX had the ability to run OS9 applications, so instantly had thousands of applications available to run
That was 10 years ago!


Simply an idiotic comparison to get press. Weak.

In addition to all that, Apple introduced 10.0 as a beta and 10.1 wasn't pushed as their primary OS. I understand Rubenstein wanting to stem some of the negative press, but at the same time, I sure hope he doesn't buy this comparison himself otherwise the future of WebOS is very uncertain.

What I don't understand is why he didn't compare it to Android's introduction. There are a lot more parallels between Android's rough start and the launch of the TouchPad than to OS X's beginnings. And the comparison works a lot more easily and with fewer seams in the logic.

mdriftmeyer
Jul 5, 2011, 04:02 PM
Here's the problem. webOS isn't "new". Palm was having a lot of these same issues with webOS YEARS ago. HP hasn't fixed the core problems with the OS.

As I understand it - and I jumped ship away from Apple right around their near death experience - Apple went back to the drawing board when it went to Unix and started developing out Mac OS which was part of the reason for their issues, but Mac OS shares very little in terms of similarities with the old System OS...common items are basically the Finder, the Apple menu, AppleScript (which isn't really the same), and the fact that they still call it "Macintosh HD" if I remember my old System OS machines. So for all intents and purposes, Mac OS was a brand new operating system.

webOS doesn't have that excuse. It's not new. It's the exact same thing it's always been save for a few refinements. I get conceptually what he's saying, but it's a flawed directive. They rushed it to market, period. Palm likely would have done the same thing. But I expected better of HP.

On a side note, he looks like a deflated Steven Seagal.

WebOS is a face on top of WebKit and Linux, with touch UI actions. That's it.

applefan69
Jul 5, 2011, 04:10 PM
In addition to all that, Apple introduced 10.0 as a beta and 10.1 wasn't pushed as their primary OS. I understand Rubenstein wanting to stem some of the negative press, but at the same time, I sure hope he doesn't buy this comparison himself otherwise the future of WebOS is very uncertain.

What I don't understand is why he didn't compare it to Android's introduction. There are a lot more parallels between Android's rough start and the launch of the TouchPad than to OS X's beginnings. And the comparison works a lot more easily and with fewer seams in the logic.

simple.

OS X is a well known success now, Android is still a great big question mark.

*LTD*
Jul 5, 2011, 04:11 PM
I think in this case HP is going to use its deeper pockets to get WebOS really going. Palms biggest problem was they just did not have the money to do it.

Palm's biggest problem was that consumers weren't buying. Of course, they also lacked a robust ecosystem.

MS' biggest problem is that Android and Apple provide little reason for consumers to choose WP7. When both of MS' rivals are hitting major SALES milestones each quarter, serving both ends of the market, getting *another* OS and platform to make waves is going to be rather difficult, unless what you offer is mind-blowing. As for that, MS hasn't achieve anything game-changing with WP7 - nothing on the order of June 2007, that's for sure.

Again, MS is way late to the game. Their main rival is Android, and Google's already taken the universal licensor role.

Throwing more money at something won't make any difference when your entire game-plan is wrong.

It isn't that WP7 is a bad platform at all. It's just that it should have been introduced three years ago. But at the time Ballmer liked his strategy. He liked it a lot.

SandynJosh
Jul 5, 2011, 04:21 PM
HP has going for it too that they sell a ton of pc's every year, and are going to be pushing out Web OS on one they sell. So they kind of will have millions of built in users too.

You may be too young to remember that when HP got into the computer business, circa mid-80s, they had their own OS, not Microsoft's. They learned then that going it alone didn't work.

This time around they want to license their OS to other manufacturers. To get any takers, they need to make the WebOS a contender. The includes building a ecosystem as well as speeding up the OS to today's expectations.

To say HP or WebOS has potential really doesn't say anything more then saying Microsoft has potential to come up with a new idea.

Thunderhawks
Jul 5, 2011, 04:23 PM
I believe MS is going up against them with Windows 8.

You forgot to mention Windows 8 was your idea:-)

PeterQVenkman
Jul 5, 2011, 04:23 PM
Rubenstein is an incompetent boob. He was a screw up at Apple and he's screwing up HP.

Yeah, what did he work on again? wasn't it... the iPod?

res1233
Jul 5, 2011, 04:28 PM
Then why are you still using Mac OS X and iOS? OS X is not known for its blazing performance - that crown goes to Linux, followed by Windows. And iOS... Please. Have you seen Android lately?

OpenGL performance is slacking a bit in snow leopard, but it appears lion will fix that. As for overall system performance, OS X wins due it being far less bloated than windows. Microsoft doesn't know what "drop legacy support" means. Fewer lines of code usually translates to improved performance, although it depends on the code.

Thunderhawks
Jul 5, 2011, 04:31 PM
The problem with his comparison is that even if true, the comparison has no predictive power. A lot of products have a rocky start, and invoking the similar beginnings of OS X isn't some talisman that makes your product likely to succeed.

All WebOS's problems pale in comparison to its biggest problem - it isn't iOS, it isn't an iPad. Improving the quality isn't going to change that.

I vote for HP to rewrite webOS from the ground up.
Start by hiring the guys who did the Quicken rewrite from the ground up.

Then for a new tablet design get the designers who design American appliances, Sunbeam, GE, Black & Decker, Broan etc. and involve the value analysts from the accounting department to make sure only the flimsiest materials are used.

Then support the Made in America wish and produce it all here.

Ideally they would then televise -a FIRST- how the finished assembled products get thrown into a dumpster right off the production line by happy union workers.
Cut out the middleman (wholesaler, retailer, consumer and dump directly!).

One can dream or?.......................

Lennholm
Jul 5, 2011, 04:46 PM
Sounds like trolling to me.

As another poster pointed out in response to this post, the comments have been largely positive. I think this is probably the most negative post.

Mostly positive!? All I see in this thread is smug remarks like "idiot", "moron", "incompetent fool" etc.
People seem to forget that his man was behind the product that saved Apple, the iPod. I guess soon people will comment with things like "Oh, he wasn't that important to the development of the iPod anyway", "The iPod would've been made sooner or later without him since all those great ideas originates from Steve anyway" and "Uumh, I've never owned an iPod, so I don't think it's what saved Apple"

*LTD*
Jul 5, 2011, 04:52 PM
Mostly positive!? All I see in this thread is smug remarks like "idiot", "moron", "incompetent fool" etc.
People seem to forget that his man was behind the product that saved Apple, the iPod.

That was a decade ago.

Ruby's current track record isn't that great (that whole unpleasantness with Palm, etc.) and he's on his own now - no Apple. And now . . . a really weak tablet release.

Very un-Apple, to be honest.

ghostface147
Jul 5, 2011, 04:52 PM
Sorry Jon. In this smartphone-powered era, it is a sprint. Not a marathon.

spyder1011
Jul 5, 2011, 04:53 PM
Marathon? Well said. Have you ever considered releasing it when you are closer to the finish line? If you know you are selling a half-done product, then why are you charging people full price?

twill1989
Jul 5, 2011, 05:10 PM
I played around with the TouchPad at a local Best Buy. It's a nice interface but the hardware sucked. The accelerometer was slow to respond and it was just awkward to hold in general. I love Apple, Mac OS X, and iOS but I do like webOS. Unfortunately, the TouchPad doesnt do it justice. It's apparent that HP cut corners to get the price down to match Apple but unless there's a major discount in the future, I dont see why I should buy a TouchPad when I can buy a iPad for the same price.

inkswamp
Jul 5, 2011, 05:20 PM
simple.

OS X is a well known success now, Android is still a great big question mark.

Hey, I think my Mac running Snow Leopard is a thing of beauty, but Android has more of the smart phone market than Macs and OS X have of the computer market. I still think he would have been better off comparing the TouchPad to Android's start.

NAG
Jul 5, 2011, 05:21 PM
Here's the problem. webOS isn't "new". Palm was having a lot of these same issues with webOS YEARS ago. HP hasn't fixed the core problems with the OS.

I think this is a valid claim against the webOS teething argument. webOS was slower due to the nature of the beast at launch (similar to the OS X argument). However, it has been years and the TouchPad hardware is far superior to the Pre 1. Yet, there doesn't seem to be any improvement.

It took Apple a little over a year (10.0 to 10.2) to largely fix the OS X speed issues. A little over two years if you want to go out to 10.3. They've had over two years for webOS 1.0 to 3.0 and the performance issues are still there. Why?

zergy
Jul 5, 2011, 05:24 PM
The major difference is OSX had built-in legacy (OS9/Classic) support, and so launched with a large app library. It was also quickly built into a fully functional OS and accompanied by HW that took full advantage of it (G5's). Palm has had several years and is now on v3.0 (I think) with little to no improvement in the App situation or apparently resolving the various stability/HW issues. Yeah 10.1 sucked, but by 10.3 it was almost as stable as 9, most of the apps were native/UB, and most of the power users I knew (a/v producers mostly) had switched or were at least learning it. Web OS is simply DOA unless its actually polished at each iteration, heavily invested in, and launched on much better HW. For example, it isn't even running on the majority of Palm hardware (Pre/+/Pixis are still stuck at version 1 and basically abandoned!) and yet reviewers claim the TouchPad is still sluggish! (even @ 1.2/5 GHz)

(edit): I see the guy above just posted the same gist!

IconicM
Jul 5, 2011, 05:37 PM
I also agree with him. The reason iOS was able to take over the entire market was because they were the first one to put a real contender out. Mac OS X was hardly the first contender when it was released as computer OS, so it had to deal with the "it's not as good as the others" reviews, and similarly, WebOS is suffering from not being the first touch phone OS.

I agree with the motivational speech as well. The counter point is when does a product become so entrenched that it is impossible to supplant, even though a better product might come along? If HP and others don't hurry, it'll be iPod Sequel 2.

shartypants
Jul 5, 2011, 05:39 PM
Well, they better start sprinting to catch up with Apple, Apple is way ahead and running at a faster pace.

scottsjack
Jul 5, 2011, 05:55 PM
Mostly positive!? All I see in this thread is smug remarks like "idiot", "moron", "incompetent fool" etc.
People seem to forget that his man was behind the product that saved Apple, the iPod. I guess soon people will comment with things like "Oh, he wasn't that important to the development of the iPod anyway", "The iPod would've been made sooner or later without him since all those great ideas originates from Steve anyway" and "Uumh, I've never owned an iPod, so I don't think it's what saved Apple"

You’re right. It’s amazing to see how pathetically immature a large number of Apple fanboys are when someone says anything less than wonderful about Apple’s products. People will endlessly argue in favor of Apple no matter what the less-than-perfect comment was. What a brilliant choice it was to focus on producing iToys for such a crowd.

MattInOz
Jul 5, 2011, 05:59 PM
Even if it were a good product (I don't know I have never used it), I can't see it being successful. If Microsoft does not have the guns to go up against the big two, Why would anyone think HP could.

Lots of Microsofts' customers are HP customers first with MS included. HP are the ones out building the customer relationships with the corporate customers who keep MS alive. HP have leverage over MS as MS don't make the whole widget so can't directly offer a direct alternative.

HP can target these customers at will with WebOS in much the same way they can offer Servers with a range of Suitable OS's and all MS can do is make noise.

inkswamp
Jul 5, 2011, 06:05 PM
Mostly positive!? All I see in this thread is smug remarks like "idiot", "moron", "incompetent fool" etc.
People seem to forget that his man was behind the product that saved Apple, the iPod. I guess soon people will comment with things like "Oh, he wasn't that important to the development of the iPod anyway", "The iPod would've been made sooner or later without him since all those great ideas originates from Steve anyway" and "Uumh, I've never owned an iPod, so I don't think it's what saved Apple"

Lighten up, Francis.

It's like when a great band breaks up. It's hard to say who was really responsible for what.

Take Pink Floyd for example. A lot of people wanted to credit Roger Waters as the primary force behind everything they did, but it became obvious after a few solo albums that the real genius of the band lay in the interplay of Waters' lyrics and conceptual work with the musicianship and production acumen of David Gilmour. Without that, Waters' work fell short and became considerably less interesting and affecting.

Rubenstein may have done some brilliant work at Apple, but that was at Apple, where he had others with equally compelling ideas and some apparent interplay between them all. It does appear, especially after two lackluster, high-profile product launches (the Palm Pre and the TouchPad) that Rubenstein's great ideas may not be able to stand on their own very well.

Dagless
Jul 5, 2011, 06:08 PM
I hope WebOS does well, competition is always good.
However the digital landscape was much different back in those days Rubinstein is talking about. I don't believe you can compare the two.

Optheduim
Jul 5, 2011, 06:42 PM
I had the blackberry storm 1 to compensate no iphone on vz and my animosity was like when your car rolls down a hill backwards into a pack of rabid goats followed by it exploding as it goes off a cliff into a rocky river. (prior... really cool lg flip phone.)

that was all software & a dumbass click screen & no wifi. i remember there being even more crapier crap on the market that was a "touch smartphone"

The storm broke 3x within a year (each time it was the phone not me, all under warranty)-- made the switch to at&t for the 3gs and so far not going back (grandfather into unlimited data, talk&surf)

Moof1904
Jul 5, 2011, 08:20 PM
He's not all that far off base. I remember being able to watch the menus redraw on screen the public beta and 10.0 were that slow. I remember being forced to reboot to OS9 to watch a DVD because there was no DVD playback in OSX.


Yes, all true, but this is more than a decade later, which is a lifetime in technology evolution. Hardware, software, and expectations have evolved considerably since then. Were MacOS 10.0 released today it would be eviscerated by critics for its performance.

mdriftmeyer
Jul 5, 2011, 08:39 PM
OpenGL performance is slacking a bit in snow leopard, but it appears lion will fix that. As for overall system performance, OS X wins due it being far less bloated than windows. Microsoft doesn't know what "drop legacy support" means. Fewer lines of code usually translates to improved performance, although it depends on the code.

FWIW: OpenGL support in the Linux Desktop hasn't even reached OpenGL 2.x status. It is only reaching OpenGL ES 2.0 with KDE 4.7 in Kwin for window compositing.

Xorg is still at Server/Client GLX 1.4/1.5 with even Nvidia's latest 280.x drivers. That will change with Wayland, but that only uses OpenGL ES and won't be fully OpenGL 2.x until they blow up X completely and GLX.

OS X has been OpenGL 2.x for several years, system-wide. With Lion it's now OpenGL 3.2 compliant and the Shader Language (GLSL 1.5) that goes with it.

OS X will be OpenGL 4.x compliant long before Linux even touches 3.x.

ktlx
Jul 5, 2011, 08:44 PM
You may be too young to remember that when HP got into the computer business, circa mid-80s, they had their own OS, not Microsoft's.
You may be too young to remember that when HP got into the computer business, it was the mid-60's.

mdriftmeyer
Jul 5, 2011, 08:46 PM
Mostly positive!? All I see in this thread is smug remarks like "idiot", "moron", "incompetent fool" etc.
People seem to forget that his man was behind the product that saved Apple, the iPod. I guess soon people will comment with things like "Oh, he wasn't that important to the development of the iPod anyway", "The iPod would've been made sooner or later without him since all those great ideas originates from Steve anyway" and "Uumh, I've never owned an iPod, so I don't think it's what saved Apple"

Jon wasn't behind the product that saved Apple. Jon was the VP who oversaw a world class of engineers, designers, directors and managers who made the iPod, under Steve's vision.

Jon hasn't had direct engineering, hands on work with designing hardware since the NeXTStation and the HP APOLLO, and that failed Motorola corporation post his NeXT Days which ended by 1993.


In 1990, Apple co-founder Steve Jobs approached Rubinstein to run hardware engineering at his latest venture, NeXT. Rubinstein headed work on NeXT’s RISC workstation – a graphics powerhouse that was never released because in 1993, the company abandoned their floundering hardware business in favor of a software-only approach.

After helping to dismantle NeXT’s manufacturing operations, Rubinstein went on to start another company, Power House Systems. That company, later renamed Firepower Systems, was backed by Canon Inc. and used technology developed at NeXT. It developed and built high-end systems using the PowerPC chip. Motorola bought the business in 1996.

The Machine not mentioned is the NeXTStation codenamed, ``The Brick,'' which was a Dual CPU PowerPC based CPU and it sits in Apple Engineering to this day.

Wikipedia calls it the : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeXT_RISC_Workstation

They were all RISC NeXT Workstations.

He never designed the original NeXTStation or it's predecessor, the NeXTCube. Those were other very talented folks.

mdriftmeyer
Jul 5, 2011, 08:48 PM
You may be too young to remember that when HP got into the computer business, it was the mid-60's.

Good one, but of course the prior poster would have save themselves if they had cited HP-UX and HP PA-RISC Architecture that NeXTStep/Openstep ran on.

ktlx
Jul 5, 2011, 08:55 PM
Good one, but of course the prior poster would have save themselves if they had cited HP-UX and HP PA-RISC Architecture that NeXTStep/Openstep ran on.
Then the following statements wouldn't have been true. HP-UX and PA-RISC were successful during the days of proprietary UNIX and RISC implementations. HP made boatloads of money off that combination.

davidgrimm
Jul 5, 2011, 09:39 PM
I'm hoping this guy's spin is correct. The better the competition, the better it gets for consumers. So lets hope HP sticks with the product and continues to improve it.

So many companies rush something to market with flaws, then wonders why it did so poorly and canceled the whole program. :eek: Smart companies don't rush crap into production and don't bail at the first sign of weak performance. Once you commit, you need to follow through for at least a couple of product cycles before making the big decision. :cool:

applebook
Jul 5, 2011, 10:35 PM
The analogy would be apt if Apple, Google, and Microsoft are to sit on their lead in mobile and not constantly iterate in the coming years (such as Microsoft did with Windows). Then I could see HP catching up. Maybe..
But the way Android and iOS march on and how HP's reach does not seem to have added much to the progress of WebOS, I won't bet on them.

Good.

I don't see consumers getting sick and tired of Android, iOS, and WP7 like they did with Windoze.

applebook
Jul 5, 2011, 10:36 PM
webos is the best OS out there till 5.0 iOS comes out....

Really sorry they have not a slate phone as Galaxy S II or HD7...

the potential goes to WP7 these days...

Not a single comment above is tenable.

CFreymarc
Jul 5, 2011, 11:35 PM
This guy is delusional. Comparing this to OSX' original rollout? Please...talk about grasping...

Rubenstein, IMO, is doing the lip service before his golden parachute is fully packed and he is out of HP. He knows this is the swan song Palm device before webOS is folded into the HP borg cube.

The loss of market credit by dropping support for Garnet and killing a development community of the most fanatic mobile developers was never fully recovered. JavaScript on a mobile has yet to be proven a viable alternative to native code on a mobile device.

You had a good run John, stole some press from Steve but you never matched his rep but you did match is dress style. Please move on and learn from it. The executive hallways of HP are way out of your league.

seek3r
Jul 5, 2011, 11:42 PM
OpenGL performance is slacking a bit in snow leopard, but it appears lion will fix that. As for overall system performance, OS X wins [...]

Until finder chokes and dies because you have a remote fileshare with thousands of small files (source files, saved scratch disks, stuff like that). Ugh! Finder's been painful like that since 10.4, I'm really hoping leopard fixes it!

(still love OSX, but tough love man, tough love is important. Debian goes on my servers, cluster nodes, and VMs, windows on my gaming machines, and OSX on my workstations!)

blow45
Jul 6, 2011, 03:55 AM
it's a marathon for sure, but one that has almost run it's course, why do always software designers come out and say they will evolve to cover up the current mess?:rolleyes:

Rapscallion
Jul 6, 2011, 06:53 AM
Wasn't HP going to be licensing WebOS out and Samsung was reportedly going to use it on its platforms?

cozmot
Jul 6, 2011, 06:55 AM
Rubinstein's comment, "It's hard to believe these statements described MacOS X - a platform that would go on to change the landscape of Silicon Valley in ways that no one could have imagined," is a bit farfetched. I think it was more the transition from PowerPC to Intel processors that was the real game changer. This eliminated the either-or dilemma for many people. You could have a Mac and a Windows PC in the same machine. OS X, which preceded this hardware change by several years, was adapted to this hardware change; it didn't create it.

It was this and a combination of other strokes of genius that changed Silicon Valley, including the iPod and iPhone. But to say that OS X changed the landscape is an exaggeration. On the other hand, we may look back one day and say that what really changed Silicon Valley was iOS.

Les Kern
Jul 6, 2011, 08:03 AM
I got their first tablet in about 2002 or 3.
'nuff said.
Game over HP.
Besides, someone who left Apple to go to PALM should not be allowed to voice an opinion.

JAT
Jul 6, 2011, 08:13 AM
HP should focus on...making more innovations in printing tech.
Yes, like perhaps fixing all their software problems, making actual drivers for all their printers. Maybe learning how to make 2 models that can use the same software! :eek:

(in reality, not just because you can see a "universal" driver on their website)

Bigdaddyguido
Jul 6, 2011, 08:35 AM
Wirelessly posted (Iphone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Great comments in this post, and while the comparison isn't totally off-base, the thought that the mild similarities could possibly predict this current market are far from accurate, as many of you have pointed out. The one thing I'm surprised no one mentioned is how different apple (the mobile market leader) is approaching thus than Microsoft (the pc leader) approached the scene in the 90s. It took MS 3 years to update windows 95, and 98 was hardly any different. NT was a colossal waste of time, 2k wasn't bad, but hardly revolutionary, and millennium was probably the worst mass produced OS of all time. When XP finally came it wasn't vastly different than 2000, the last quality OS, and we all remember the ridiculous vista debacle. These were all major factors for apple's success.

Apple hardcore redesigned the iPad 1 year after it debuted and iOS 5 is showing itself to be quite a major revision just 1 year after each previous iOS iteration, each one substantially better than it's predesseor, but each variation has been stable and simple, thus not forcing users to really consider switching unless they're techies and just want some specific great feature android/w7/webos has.

Sackvillenb
Jul 6, 2011, 09:31 AM
The marathon is a good analogy. Although all the non-Apple tablets I've seen don't quite measure up, I think they will improve over time... and it will be very interesting to see where the tablet market is 2, 5, and 10 years from now...! And I do think that competition (i.e. strong competition) is VERY important for the ipad to reach it's full potential. And it is, slowly, getting there. IOS 5 will make the ipad much better. Not the the ipad is bad... in fact, it's great, but there are a few key problems with it that will need to be addressed... (like the thing that I always complain about: how it's essentially tethered to a single computer... something that I think will hold the ipad back in the long term... especially for people who do use multiple computers, like a desktop and laptop). But, evolution takes time! And competition! :)

madmaxmedia
Jul 6, 2011, 12:29 PM
Wow, the comments above are quite malicious. Although this guy led the development the now worshiped iPod, his observations are obviously worthless since he doesn't currently work at Apple. :rolleyes:

Well, the analogy seems shaky. If the original webOS had been promising but slow on the first Pre, then yeah the analogy would be completely valid- brand new OS is really promising but still rough around the edges.

But webOS is not new, it's just running on a bigger screen (which involves development but is not the same as developing a new OS from scratch.) When the iPad first came out, basically all the reviews talked about how snappy it was. For HP to come out with a webOS tablet that is the opposite, months after the iPad 2 came out, is unfortunate.

Hopefully an update will come sooner than later that will improve its performance. I would like to see it achieve some success, although I've never owned a webOS device myself.

iphonepiephone
Jul 6, 2011, 12:32 PM
So, the "Me too" crowd are surprised that their product is not quite as eagerly received as the market leading standard?

Give me a break, it was obvious. :D

madmaxmedia
Jul 6, 2011, 12:33 PM
The marathon vs. sprint thing is interesting.

It could in actuality just mean that Palm, HP, etc. haven't lost YET.

If you fall behind in a marathon, sure you have a chance. But what are you going to do DIFFERENTLY that will allow you to catch up? So we'll see.

I think the new Windows 7 Phone update seems promising, we'll see what HP can do. As an iPhone user I would prefer iOS to continue having the largest user base going forward, but wouldn't mind to see the others still succeed.

The marathon is a good analogy. Although all the non-Apple tablets I've seen don't quite measure up, I think they will improve over time... and it will be very interesting to see where the tablet market is 2, 5, and 10 years from now...! And I do think that competition (i.e. strong competition) is VERY important for the ipad to reach it's full potential. And it is, slowly, getting there. IOS 5 will make the ipad much better. Not the the ipad is bad... in fact, it's great, but there are a few key problems with it that will need to be addressed... (like the thing that I always complain about: how it's essentially tethered to a single computer... something that I think will hold the ipad back in the long term... especially for people who do use multiple computers, like a desktop and laptop). But, evolution takes time! And competition! :)

madmaxmedia
Jul 6, 2011, 12:37 PM
It was a great OS, but never had the backing (HP and their resources) WebOS now has.

Which makes it surprising that their tablet would be released seemingly half-baked.

A good update could easily change that, but sometimes initial perceptions are hard to change.

jegbook
Jul 6, 2011, 02:23 PM
The marathon is a good analogy. Although all the non-Apple tablets I've seen don't quite measure up, I think they will improve over time... and it will be very interesting to see where the tablet market is 2, 5, and 10 years from now...! And I do think that competition (i.e. strong competition) is VERY important for the ipad to reach it's full potential. And it is, slowly, getting there. IOS 5 will make the ipad much better. Not the the ipad is bad... in fact, it's great, but there are a few key problems with it that will need to be addressed... (like the thing that I always complain about: how it's essentially tethered to a single computer... something that I think will hold the ipad back in the long term... especially for people who do use multiple computers, like a desktop and laptop). But, evolution takes time! And competition! :)

Isn't iOS 5 supposed to liberate iOS devices from the computer tether? Is that part of your point about how iOS 5 will make the iPad much better?
I definitely agree that liberating iPads and iPhones from the computer is a good thing. Let them be standalone devices if a person wants it to be.

steadysignal
Jul 6, 2011, 02:25 PM
But hey, that's what executives are for, right?

not every exec is an a$$hat. there are a few left that try to do it right...

Domalais
Jul 7, 2011, 12:09 PM
I got their first tablet in about 2002 or 3.
'nuff said.
Game over HP.

I got Apple's first tablet.
'nuff said.
Game over Apple.

Lennholm
Jul 7, 2011, 12:19 PM
Jon wasn't behind the product that saved Apple. Jon was the VP who oversaw a world class of engineers, designers, directors and managers who made the iPod, under Steve's vision.

And there we have it, I knew I was going to get the standard "he wasn't that important, Steve is the genius behind everything" fanboy rationalization as a response.

cmaier
Jul 7, 2011, 12:57 PM
And there we have it, I knew I was going to get the standard "he wasn't that important, Steve is the genius behind everything" fanboy rationalization as a response.

The dude was there. Maybe you should pay attention to him instead of deciding you know better than him.

balamw
Jul 11, 2011, 06:47 PM
And now... http://gizmodo.com/5820180/is-webos-hosed it's not his problem anymore.

At least he's not leaving HP altogether...

B

AppleScruff1
Jul 12, 2011, 02:20 AM
Wow, the comments above are quite malicious. Although this guy led the development the now worshiped iPod, his observations are obviously worthless since he doesn't currently work at Apple. :rolleyes:

That's the true Apple fanatics way of looking at things. Just like 7" tablets are stupid, but as soon as Apple releases one it will be a great idea.

Good.

I don't see consumers getting sick and tired of Android, iOS, and WP7 like they did with Windoze.

When did consumers get sick and tired of Windows? I thought that Windows still had about 90% of the market.

SilianRail
Jul 12, 2011, 02:31 AM
It sure is cringeworthy when an exec goes Uncle Rico talking about what he did well back in '85 at a much more successful company.

cozmot
Jul 12, 2011, 06:29 AM
And now... http://gizmodo.com/5820180/is-webos-hosed it's not his problem anymore.

At least he's not leaving HP altogether...

B

HP's got a big problem here. Don't think Rubenstein isn't floating his resume around now. Bye WebOS!

cozmot
Jul 12, 2011, 06:33 AM
That's the true Apple fanatics way of looking at things. Just like 7" tablets are stupid, but as soon as Apple releases one it will be a great idea.



When did consumers get sick and tired of Windows? I thought that Windows still had about 90% of the market.

And I haven't seen Microsoft roll over and die, either. Lots of life left in that body. And who owns the corporate marketplace? I don't think it starts with "A."

RHatton
Jul 13, 2011, 12:41 PM
A blanket statement to cover up piss poor engineering and development. This isn't the same as the release of OS X in the slightest bit. There was no market for OS X when it was released. The TouchPad is entering an already aggressively growing tablet market with lukewarm reception because its a failure from the get go. To compete you have to have something the iPad doesn't have that appeals to the mass market or take something it does and do it better. This tablet has none of those features. Hewlett and Packard would roll in their graves if they knew the direction their company has taken.

RHatton
Jul 13, 2011, 12:49 PM
When did consumers get sick and tired of Windows? I thought that Windows still had about 90% of the market.

That's a failed statement to claim that the current marketshare is your measure of success. Its 90% today but what about tomorrow? Next month? Next Year? Marketshare is meaningless if your product development is on a decline. Windows 7 was a big up for Microsoft, where they actually put in the manpower to make it great. They have however had enough flops to rub people the wrong way. Nobody gets excited for a new Windows OS or Zune or Microsoft Store. Thats for a few reasons. 1. They have a history of failure, 2. They have horrid marketing to promote their image, 3. They don't change enough in a new product to create excitement.

They have created a huge fan base for the Xbox but what now? They fired the development team so who takes the reigns from them?

Microsoft has the same problem as RIM, HP etc. They coast through the years on the coat tails of their own previous products and put no time into R&D. They are now in the stage of paying for that mistake and scrambling to push out crap to stay above water. This isn't rocket science. Its common sense from a consumer's perspective.

AppleScruff1
Jul 13, 2011, 11:15 PM
That's a failed statement to claim that the current marketshare is your measure of success. Its 90% today but what about tomorrow? Next month? Next Year? Marketshare is meaningless if your product development is on a decline. Windows 7 was a big up for Microsoft, where they actually put in the manpower to make it great. They have however had enough flops to rub people the wrong way. Nobody gets excited for a new Windows OS or Zune or Microsoft Store. Thats for a few reasons. 1. They have a history of failure, 2. They have horrid marketing to promote their image, 3. They don't change enough in a new product to create excitement.

They have created a huge fan base for the Xbox but what now? They fired the development team so who takes the reigns from them?

Microsoft has the same problem as RIM, HP etc. They coast through the years on the coat tails of their own previous products and put no time into R&D. They are now in the stage of paying for that mistake and scrambling to push out crap to stay above water. This isn't rocket science. Its common sense from a consumer's perspective.

So you are claiming that Microsoft is not successful? And they too had a record quarter for profits. I guess that shows how much they are slipping in the eyes of the consumer. :rolleyes:

There are more computers running Windows 7 than there are Apple computers that have been built since the companies inception. I guess Apples base is bigger. :rolleyes:

What is Apples share of the tablet market today? 90%? Do you think it will be higher in 2 years? :rolleyes: There is only one place for that market share to go. And it ain't up.

RHatton
Jul 14, 2011, 08:55 AM
So you are claiming that Microsoft is not successful? And they too had a record quarter for profits. I guess that shows how much they are slipping in the eyes of the consumer. :rolleyes:

There are more computers running Windows 7 than there are Apple computers that have been built since the companies inception. I guess Apples base is bigger. :rolleyes:

What is Apples share of the tablet market today? 90%? Do you think it will be higher in 2 years? :rolleyes: There is only one place for that market share to go. And it ain't up.

I never said Microsoft wasn't successful. Read more carefully. I said market share is not an indicator of success. Apple's tablet market share is at 90%, cool who cares. They have the best tablet on the market obviously by looking at reviews and numbers of sales. As long as they stay ahead of everyone else in the patent game they will continue to thrive. Are you really ignorant enough to assume that just because they have 90% market share of tablets they are automatically on the way down? The iPhone hasn't shown any signs of decline since 2007. The Mac is increasing in popularity and with it comes increased market share. Am I saying Microsoft is not successful? No. Am I saying they fail to create excitement around their products and are a sinking ship? Yes. Don't believe me? Check the stocks every once in a while. Google and Apple have already begun their takeover of technology.

MacNewsFix
Jul 14, 2011, 12:48 PM
I've always liked Ruby and was sad to hear he was replaced following the public's somewhat tepid response to the TouchPad. I think the WebOS is second only to iOS and even superior in some respects.