PCI-Express, AGP 8x

[MacRumors]

News.com (http://news.com.com/2100-1040-959476.html?tag=fd_top) discusses the recent adoption of AGP 8x on NVidia's nForce2 chipset. But dates this standard and expects PCI Express to overtake it in about 1 1/2 years:

"AGP has kind of worn out," said Peter Glaskowsky, editor in chief of industry newsletter the Microprocessor Report. "AGP 8x will last about a year, maybe a year and a half, then we'll get PC Express graphics cards. PCI Express has way more headroom to grow."

PCI Express is the new name for 3GIO Technology (http://news.com.com/2110-1001-885582.html). Apple was reported to (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/03/20020303213724.shtml) be involved with the 3GIO standard.

[Rocketman]

3GIO is not only the open standard Apple is migrating to but it is the complimentary technolofy to Hypertransport and other high bandwidth technologies.

3GOI may even make practical more than one HDTV picture driven from a single CPU/Box.

Rocketman

[Mr. Anderson]

Its interesting to see that the performance boost between the system insn't all that much different (no specs, just paraphrasing). But with room to grow, I can't even begin to imagine what the capabilities might be like in 2004....

D

[shadowfax0]

This really makes me think about when to buy a new computer...all these new standards and things, alot of different levels to think on rather the just the CPU or RAM...:eek:

[nuckinfutz]

Originally posted by shadowfax0
This really makes me think about when to buy a new computer...all these new standards and things, alot of different levels to think on rather the just the CPU or RAM...:eek:

Just hop in when you're ready there are always plenty of new Technologies coming down the pipe.

You'll notice that the current trend is to replace old Parallel technologies like ATA and now PCI with Serial based Tech that runs faster. For instance

SerialATA will replace Parallell ATA- This means Ribbon Cables go bye bye and nice thin cables about the thickness of a Firewire cable will be used to connect ATA Devices.

PCIExpress will go Serial and support up to 8 Gigabytes of throughput.

Hopefully the Serial nature of the Cards means smaller connectors to the Motherboard as well.

SCSI is going Serial as well.

[mozez]

did everyone miss soemthing? this was created by INTEL!!!! read the article, it will be, like everything else, out on pcs and eventually, i guess about 2 years after pcs have it, apple may get it, or get a hack of it. it's just like ddr, standard in a pc, maybe 2 years later, apple still doesn't have "true" ddr. but the major part of all of this is that it is made by and for intel, not apple. hypertranport will also, like everything else, be on a pc first, most people still think firewire was on a mac first, apple called it firewire, but pcs had 1394 ports before apple ever did, it's all the same, apple is just way behind. this will just psuh them even farther and make it harder to catch up.

[keltorsori]

Originally posted by mozez
did everyone miss soemthing? this was created by INTEL!!!! read the article, it will be, like everything else, out on pcs and eventually, i guess about 2 years after pcs have it, apple may get it, or get a hack of it. it's just like ddr, standard in a pc, maybe 2 years later, apple still doesn't have "true" ddr. but the major part of all of this is that it is made by and for intel, not apple. hypertranport will also, like everything else, be on a pc first, most people still think firewire was on a mac first, apple called it firewire, but pcs had 1394 ports before apple ever did, it's all the same, apple is just way behind. this will just psuh them even farther and make it harder to catch up.
And USB is an Intel created technology as well. Andy Grove (CEO of Intel) has publicly said that if it weren't for Apple and the iMac, USB would probably be dead. It was an Apple first (or forced adoption first). Just because something is Intel doesn't mean Apple won't get it, or even implement it before the Wintel world.
The DDR issue has less to do with Apple than Motorola. The current crop of PPC 74XX processors DO NOT support DDR. That's why you get the current DDR hack. When Moto comes out with the 7470's then we'll see true DDR.

[Telomar]

Originally posted by keltorsori

When Moto comes out with the 7470's then we'll see true DDR. If by 7470 you are referring to a chip with a DDR MPX bus then I wouldn't count on ever seeing it.

[iN8]

Originally posted by mozez
...most people still think firewire was on a mac first, apple called it firewire, but pcs had 1394 ports before apple ever did...

I may be wrong, and I don't think I am, but didn't Apple invent Firewire. It is an Apple technology. Just like USB is Intels technology. I'd like to see your proof of PC's having Firewire ports before Macs. That's bloody rediculous.

N8

[Arcady]

Originally posted by mozez
most people still think firewire was on a mac first, apple called it firewire, but pcs had 1394 ports before apple ever did

Most people are right. The Blue & White G3 introduced FireWire to the world.

[iN8]

Originally posted by Arcady


Most people are right. The Blue & White G3 introduced FireWire to the world.

And before that Apple offered a PCI firewire upgrade card for Gossamer (Beige) G3s.

See here: http://manuals.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Manuals/software/0340652APWRMACG3.PDF

N8

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by mozez
did everyone miss soemthing? this was created by INTEL!!!! read the article, it will be, like everything else, out on pcs and eventually, i guess about 2 years after pcs have it, apple may get it, or get a hack of it. it's just like ddr, standard in a pc, maybe 2 years later, apple still doesn't have "true" ddr. but the major part of all of this is that it is made by and for intel, not apple. hypertranport will also, like everything else, be on a pc first, most people still think firewire was on a mac first, apple called it firewire, but pcs had 1394 ports before apple ever did, it's all the same, apple is just way behind. this will just psuh them even farther and make it harder to catch up.

I would agree Apple is a late adopter of some specific technologies, even thrir own. But they also release an integrated system of hardware and software that interacts with everything else fairly seamlessly.

That is better than a box of cool parts you have to onstall and retrofit to a crippled PC with no compatible software or compelling applications.

Rocketnam

[MacBandit]

I think PCI-X will be great. Think about it no specific video card slot. Instead I will have 5 full PCI slots on my machine each capable of fully supporting any high end video card.

[Cappy]

Originally posted by keltorsori

And USB is an Intel created technology as well. Andy Grove (CEO of Intel) has publicly said that if it weren't for Apple and the iMac, USB would probably be dead. It was an Apple first (or forced adoption first). Just because something is Intel doesn't mean Apple won't get it, or even implement it before the Wintel world.

Some folks like to toss Andy Grove comments around on this but they've never been able to point to a quote. I'd like to see it because frankly I don't believe it. Matter of fact I just entered into Google "andy grove imac usb" and found nothing about Andy making any statement like this. Such a comment would be a big deal on Mac fanatic sites and yet nothing comes up.

Andy has made comments about the innovation that came from the iMac but I've never seen anything quoting him saying that USB would be dead if not for the iMac. Windows 98 was released at about the same time as the iMac and was the Windows OS that developers were waiting for to deliver USB products to the world. Sure, the iMac helped but it was Win98 that pushed USB not the iMac.

As for Andy's alledged comment feel free to provide a url to the quote. Maybe I just didn't search for it correctly but I found nothing and everytime I've challenged someone on it since just after the iMac's intro, they can never remember where they read it or find a url.

[Arcady]

Originally posted by iN8


And before that Apple offered a PCI firewire upgrade card for Gossamer (Beige) G3s.

See here: http://manuals.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Manuals/software/0340652APWRMACG3.PDF

N8

That document is dated 1998. The B&W G3 came out in the first week of January 1998. So you are saying Apple introduced the FireWire PCI card a few days before MWSF? I don't think so...

[iGav]

Originally posted by Arcady


That document is dated 1998. The B&W G3 came out in the first week of January 1998. So you are saying Apple introduced the FireWire PCI card a few days before MWSF? I don't think so...

B&W G3 came out in 99 not 98.........

[iGav]

Originally posted by mozez
most people still think firewire was on a mac first, apple called it firewire, but pcs had 1394 ports before apple ever did, it's all the same, apple is just way behind. this will just psuh them even farther and make it harder to catch up.

Jesus....... some people :rolleyes:

[iN8]

Originally posted by Arcady


...The B&W G3 came out in the first week of January 1998...

From Low End Mac

G3/300 introduced 1999.01.05 at US$1,599; discontinued 1999.06.
G3/350 introduced 1999.01.05 at US$1,999; discontinued 1999.08.31.
G3/400 introduced 1999.01.05 at US$2,999; discontinued 1999.08.31.
G3/450 introduced 1999.06 at $2,519; discontinued 1999.08.31.

You almost made be doubt myself Arcady, almost.

[big]

>I think PCI-X will be great. Think about it no specific video card slot. Instead I will have 5 full PCI slots on my machine each capable of fully supporting any high end video card.

ummm, most people have PCI now, so let me get this straight....we will go from PCI to AGB back to PCI...hmmmmm

about the B&W with firewire, after I bought mine, I now realize how awesome it is to verify the technology before you buy. I almost bought the beige G3, however, if I had not of waited I would not have firewire & a slew of other realllllllly koo things.

so I agree with shadowfax0 makes me want to wait too....I'd be really PO'd if I couldn't upgrade my G4 when something REEEAALLLLYYYY koo came out etc etc....

[iN8]

I guess it would be cool to actually have two of the same graphics card performing equally on the same bus, instead of having one AGP and one PCI.

Two cards with dual monitor support, four monitors, thats frikkin' cool!:cool:

[big]

apple has always had this capability, until recently, anways, you can still have two PCI cards running 4 monitors (instead of going through AGP)

[boom-boom]

Looking at the Apple specs page:

http://www.info.apple.com/support/applespec.html

the first iMac with Firewaire was the iMac DV 1999 09
but the first mac with Firewire as far as I can see is the G3 B+W tower in 1999 01!

[nuckinfutz]

Originally posted by mozez
did everyone miss soemthing? this was created by INTEL!!!! read the article, it will be, like everything else, out on pcs and eventually, i guess about 2 years after pcs have it, apple may get it, or get a hack of it. it's just like ddr, standard in a pc, maybe 2 years later, apple still doesn't have "true" ddr. but the major part of all of this is that it is made by and for intel, not apple. hypertranport will also, like everything else, be on a pc first, most people still think firewire was on a mac first, apple called it firewire, but pcs had 1394 ports before apple ever did, it's all the same, apple is just way behind. this will just psuh them even farther and make it harder to catch up.

Mozez I'm sorry man but this post is flat out horrible. You are wrong in so many ways it's unbelievable. Please get better...and quickly spreading misinformation is not cool.



That's why you get the current DDR hack. When Moto comes out with the 7470's then we'll see true DDR.

Please guys stop referring to it a "true" DDR. The memory in the MDD Powermacs IS DDR. The FSB doesn't support DDR and that's your problem. However remember that anthing items that suppor DMA have direct access to the full DDR Bandwidth without crossing the FSB. Let's get more technically proficient guys for the sake of newbies who read this stuff and get the wrong idea about what's "true" or not.

[iN8]

Originally posted by boom-boom
Looking at the Apple specs page:

http://www.info.apple.com/support/applespec.html

the first iMac with Firewaire was the iMac DV 1999 09
but the first mac with Firewire as far as I can see is the G3 B+W tower in 1999 01!

You are correct. The first Mac with built-in firewire was the B&W G3 (Yosemite). Nobody was disputing that. I was just stating that Firewire was available before that as a Apple Firewire Kit PCI upgrade card for the Beige G3. Firewire was only performing at 100 or 200 Mbits at the time and there were not many firewire products available.

The only reason I mentioned that was to inform mozez of how far back Apple had been using firewire.

Cheers.:)

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by big
>I think PCI-X will be great. Think about it no specific video card slot. Instead I will have 5 full PCI slots on my machine each capable of fully supporting any high end video card.

ummm, most people have PCI now, so let me get this straight....we will go from PCI to AGB back to PCI...hmmmmm


What I was trying to say is I have 4 slow PCI slots now and one AGP slot which can handle a high end graphics card. Replace all 5 of those slots with with PCI-X and you have 5PCI slots that will take anything from a USB card to a high end graphics card. Very cool.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by big
apple has always had this capability, until recently, anways, you can still have two PCI cards running 4 monitors (instead of going through AGP)


Yes but only the slowest card now days will run on a PCI bus imagine having 5 ATI9700s or nVidia Ti4600s in your computer. Then imagine a program like photoshop taking advantage of all 5 and distributing tasks across all of them. Sound like what the Amigas did.

[big]

I understand, I was being a smartass on the PCI thing....I'll include caps next time

<smartass>Whatever it is BIG has to say</smartass>

I do agree, getting rid of the single AGP slot will make your mac more flexible (especially high end & faster is always better) though you still have to have at least one for a graphics card, and many are coming with dual support now, so I guess that would cover that too!

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by big
I understand, I was being a smartass on the PCI thing....I'll include caps next time

<smartass>Whatever it is BIG has to say</smartass>

I do agree, getting rid of the single AGP slot will make your mac more flexible (especially high end & faster is always better) though you still have to have at least one for a graphics card, and many are coming with dual support now, so I guess that would cover that too!

Cool, I'll remember that.:)

[pgwalsh]

Originally posted by nuckinfutz

You'll notice that the current trend is to replace old Parallel technologies like ATA and now PCI with Serial based Tech that runs faster. For instance

SerialATA will replace Parallell ATA- This means Ribbon Cables go bye bye and nice thin cables about the thickness of a Firewire cable will be used to connect ATA Devices.

I think it'll be great when serialata becomes standard. That'll be a nice option from SCSI. You're already seeing it on new PC mobo's.

Question: How fast will harddrives need to spin to take full advantage of SerialATA? Will they just throw bigger cache on the hd and play catch-up? I guess I'm thinking that in the future hd will be the bottle neck as for how fast they can read and right. What would be ideal?

[mozez]

omg!!! people are just so sucked into whatever apple tells them, do people not realize that 1394 is firewire, and that apple bought the rights to the name and that they bought the technology from the 1394 group. 1394 is not anything new, and not anything apple invented, why do mac users thinkt hat apple made firewire, they made the name, not the technology there is a difference, it'd be like saying sony invented ilink, or whatever the hell they call it now. and yes 1394 was able to be on a pc before apple had branded the name firewire!!! go check cnet, google search it, read up on it, this is besides the point. the whole point and i don't think i'm wrong, who do you think is going to have this technology first, pc or apple, and i don't care who brands it and makes it sound liek they are the first to have it, i mean actually have it, who will have out the first mnotherboard with this technology, if you bet apple, you're insane, hey, i'd love to see it, it would give me a reason to go buy a new one. and i have all my info, so why don't you guys who tried saying i'm wrong, go to a site other than apple and get some real research, not apple's little propaganda. i love the mac, especially osx, but i do know the difference between what apple tells me, and what is the truth. i work with hardware everyday and i know what is on both systems, what can be, and what will be. not rumors, just what is sent to me in white papers.

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by mozez
omg!!! people are just so sucked into whatever apple tells them, do people not realize that 1394 is firewire, and that apple bought the rights to the name and that they bought the technology from the 1394 group. 1394 is not anything new, and not anything apple invented, why do mac users thinkt hat apple made firewire, they made the name, not the technology there is a difference, it'd be like saying sony invented ilink, or whatever the hell they call it now. and yes 1394 was able to be on a pc before apple had branded the name firewire!!! go check cnet, google search it, read up on it, this is besides the point. the whole point and i don't think i'm wrong, who do you think is going to have this technology first, pc or apple, and i don't care who brands it and makes it sound liek they are the first to have it, i mean actually have it, who will have out the first mnotherboard with this technology, if you bet apple, you're insane, hey, i'd love to see it, it would give me a reason to go buy a new one. and i have all my info, so why don't you guys who tried saying i'm wrong, go to a site other than apple and get some real research, not apple's little propaganda. i love the mac, especially osx, but i do know the difference between what apple tells me, and what is the truth. i work with hardware everyday and i know what is on both systems, what can be, and what will be. not rumors, just what is sent to me in white papers.


"History of the IEEE 1394 Standard
The 1394 digital link standard was conceived in 1986 by technologists at Apple Computer, who chose the trademark 'FireWire', in reference to its speeds of operation. The first specification for this link was completed in 1987. It was adopted in 1995 as the IEEE 1394 standard. A number of IEEE 1394 products are now available including digital camcorders with the IEEE 1394 link, IEEE 1394 digital video editing equipment, digital VCRs, digital cameras, digital audio players, 1394 IC's and a wealth of other infrastructure products such as connectors, cables, test equipment, software toolkits, and emulation models"

From here1394ta.org (http://www.1394ta.org/Technology/index.htm)

"Apple, which originally developed the technology, uses the trademarked name FireWire. Other companies use other names, such as i.link and Lynx, to describe their 1394 products. "

From here: http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/I/IEEE_1394.html


Lethal

EDIT: Fixed link

[sehix]

Originally posted by iGAV


B&W G3 came out in 99 not 98.........

Jan. 3, '99.

Which makes sense, as the beige G3s weren't announced until November '97.

[sehix]

Originally posted by mozez
omg!!! people are just so sucked into whatever apple tells them, do people not realize that 1394 is firewire, and that apple bought the rights to the name and that they bought the technology from the 1394 group.

There's no point in quoting anything more of your post, since you started out by being completely wrong.

FireWire began as a project at Apple in 1986, with the first spec issued in 1987.

Later, Texas Instruments (TI) was brought in on the project when it was time to implement silicon.

After all this, IEEE entered the scene to begin the process of defining FireWire as the standard IEEE 1394 on December 12, 1995.

The 1394 group (1394LA) was the last to join the party, in 1999.

I don't know who you got your "facts" from, but you should probably ask for your money back.

[unreg]

Originally posted by LethalWolfe



"History of the IEEE 1394 Standard
The 1394 digital link standard was conceived in 1986 by technologists at Apple Computer, who chose the trademark 'FireWire', in reference to its speeds of operation. The first specification for this link was completed in 1987. It was adopted in 1995 as the IEEE 1394 standard. A number of IEEE 1394 products are now available including digital camcorders with the IEEE 1394 link, IEEE 1394 digital video editing equipment, digital VCRs, digital cameras, digital audio players, 1394 IC's and a wealth of other infrastructure products such as connectors, cables, test equipment, software toolkits, and emulation models"

From here1394ta.org (http://www.1394ta.org/Technology/index.htm)

"Apple, which originally developed the technology, uses the trademarked name FireWire. Other companies use other names, such as i.link and Lynx, to describe their 1394 products. "

From here: http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/I/IEEE_1394.html


Lethal

EDIT: Fixed link

I remember clearly the buzz in the Apple world at its announcement. The rest of the world's reaction was blaise at best. 'It's Apple so it will never work and if it works it will never be adapted.' Then the years of seeming lack of activity until the first real products shipped ...then more waiting for products that were reasonably priced. It wasn't until Apple made USB and Firewire default ports on the Macs did the adoption rate rise to the levels where we actually had choices of venders and products. When these products became available the rest of the world proclaimed 'this is good' and bought enough firewire things to drive the cost down for everyone. In summary it was Apple's Baby from the beginning.

[Codemonkey]

Originally posted by mozez
omg!!! people are just so sucked into whatever apple tells them


Dude... what hole did you crawl out of? Your laundry list of erroneous statements is growing longer with each post.

, do people not realize that 1394 is firewire, and that apple bought the rights to the name and that they bought the technology from the 1394 group.

Now, obviously this whole thread is way off center, and it seems to be stemming from your post about how everything 'comes out first' on PeeCee or something like that. As Lethal pointed out (right from the 1394 _consortium_!), it was most certainly helped along by Apple & Co.

1394 is not anything new, and not anything apple invented, why do mac users thinkt hat apple made firewire, they made the name, not the technology there is a difference, it'd be like saying sony invented ilink, or whatever the hell they call it now. and yes 1394 was able to be on a pc before apple had branded the name firewire!!!

You're kidding right? Do you attribute the Mouse and the GUI (That's a Graphical User Interface :) to INTEL (or Microsoft or whatever) too? Get your head out of the sand man. It's not _always_ about who invented it first. Ever hear of BASF? Their entire marketing strategy has been around "We don't make the things you use, we make them better".

go check cnet, google search it, read up on it, this is besides the point.

Well, considering most of those 'reliable, unbiased news sources' (paraphrasing from the apparent amount of weight you put on those resources) are practically bought with M$ and Intel monies, I'd have to say their reliability goes right out the window. And well, if the 1394 consortium is somehow 'bought' as well, then I guess we'll just have to look at history.


i love the mac


I quite doubt it. You sound bitter and angry about what apparently has been shoved down your throat at gunpoint.

[iN8]

I think we've all had a good lesson on the history of Firewire and Apple, and have found it abundantly clear that mozez really doesn't have a clue what he is talking about.

Sooo....... how 'bout that PCI-X!:rolleyes:

[Wyvernspirit]

After his last comment everyone went out and got information that completely discredits him. I like google as much as the next guy, but don't base your "facts" on just the first couple of hits on one search engine. If I believed everything of what every media giant says, Apple should of died 12 times by now. I believe they are still around.

Anyone, am I right, is Apple still in business? Still making NEW things?

[8thDegreeSavage]

OMG!!!!!







MOzez got totally OWNED!:D

[Codemonkey]

Hey,

So, back on topic: I really don't know a lot about the new crop of video technology out there... but back "in the day" the video card was always the bottleneck of a computer system (PeeCee's, incidentally). So what I'm wondering, when will it get to the point where something else other than the video engine will be the bottleneck? Are we there yet? Will there be anything to remedy it?

Also, if video cards/vid. processors are getting so fast and so much gets offloaded to the card - why even bother with a bada$$ cpu? With the OSes and apps with such advanced GUIs, why not just run 99% of the tasks off the GPU and have a couple embedded or scaled down processors handle HD and peripheral tasks?

As you can see, it's prolly some pretty naive comments, but even decent AGP 2x cards freak me out with how fast they are...

Any thoughts?

[Booga]

I remember seeing and operational FireWire setup displayed at a MacWorld show in the early 90's. This was before it was an IEEE standard. Apple was showing it off and talking about it coming "soon". It took them over five years to bring it to market, by which time SCSI and even IDE had caught up in speed, and USB was standard enough for USB 2.0 to offer real competition.

So, while mozez is completely wrong in his facts (ie. Apple did, in fact, invent 1394,) I kind of agree with his sentiment. Apple has gotten better, but really needs to learn to bring its own and others' high technology to market faster. I think MacOS X, with its nifty driver model and organized development paths, will help, but Apple has to go a bit further with either farming out motherboard components to third parties, or getting in earlier so they have something ready themselves when new technology comes to market. It's nice to see them in early on 3GIO and HyperTransport... maybe the future is brighter in this regard.

[shadowfax0]

Originally posted by Booga
I remember seeing and operational FireWire setup displayed at a MacWorld show in the early 90's.

...Ummm, didn't we decide that this conversation was, how do you say... OVER?

[mozez]

unfortunatly, i did not get "owned" by anyone, if people actually read my post, i made a simple point, which everyone who said anything against me missed. will you see pci x out on the pc or mac first? will you see agp8x on the mac first, well considering there are already boards made and being shipped by asus and tyan, i guess that was answered. mac has made things better, but a simple point is they take it from others, am i wrong? hey, i like the products they make, who doesn't? but was ipod the first mp3 player? hell no. even the os and mouse, they were bought and made better i will admit, by apple, but they didn't make it. and apple tossing money into projects and the project benifiting everyone in the end doesn't mean they made it, thos articles clearly state it. apple was "in cooperation" they did not make it, they gave money to take the tech, devlop it, make it better, make it seemless and market it, great for apple, it worked perfectly, i'm not dumping on apple, i'm trying to show a trend as well as not get people's hopes up that this will become standard on a powermac anytime soon. why is everyone jumping on me a correct and clear statement. everyone blows off course with firewire, which i was still right about. the first machine to have a ieee 1394 was a pc, there were no devices for it, nor did it really do anything, but it was there none the less. why is this such a big deal anyway, it's not even what the thread was about, so whoever goes off again is just a moron, you want to reply to something, reply about PCI X and AGP8X!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that is the thread, you need firewire to use as an example, fine.

[mozez]

by the way, if you want to check out the new boards with agp8x, go to www.tyan.com or www.asustech.com, and even though they are two of the top board makers, they must be "fake" and i must have "gotten there website at gunpoint". as for pci-x there is info on the upcoming boards and how they(tyan, asustech and others) will play a part in newer technologies.
i think if apple truely wants to have the technology at the same time, they will have to look for third parties to make the boards, and work with moto to make the chipset so that things are all running full speed, the way they should. i'm not trying to make anyone mad, i guess i really pissed some people off. sorry, i will post all my sources next time and then maybe the flames will die down...

[mozez]

http://www.tyan.com/products/html/thunderi7500pro.html, nevermind, pci-x is already shipping on new tyan boards, so i have a new question, since pcs now already have pci-x, will apple step up and make it a standard on the next round of powermacs?

[mozez]

it's www.asus.com not asustech, anyway, this thread is done i think.

[kenohki]

Originally posted by mozez
the first machine to have a ieee 1394 was a pc, there were no devices for it, nor did it really do anything, but it was there none the less. why is this such a big deal anyway, it's not even what the thread was about, so whoever goes off again is just a moron, you want to reply to something, reply about PCI X and AGP8X!

Well, when you post incorrect information, it makes people not want to believe anything else you have to say. You need to make yourself credible otherwise no one wants to hear what you have to say. (Capitilization would help too.)

As far as PCI-X and AGP8X...AGP will die eventually IMO. PCI-X is nice but if you look at the specs, even it's dated. It will provide a nice bump in bandwidth but eventually a way will be found to eat that bandwidth up. I think in the vertical markets that Apple is trying to target (3D effects, compositing, post production) that they need to come up with something innovative and superior to some commodity PC hardware. They need a reason for people in those markets to switch. Otherwise, why not just stick with a cheapo Linux box or your expensive IRIX box. Apple wants to become the next SGI but they need to be like SGI in the fact that they provide power and bandwidth above the current technology curve.

Something interesting as a side note...ArsTechnica had a great breakdown of the PlayStation 2 architecture. It's a different way of thinking about things. The PS2 has incredible bandwidth across the system bus and uses that to shuffle textures, models, etc around in real time as they are needed from main memory. With the current system controller on XServe and PowerMacintosh G4s supporting DMA to the DDR memory, I wonder if this school of thought might have some interesting applications for Apple's computers. Imagine PCI-X graphics cards with DMA access to dual channel DDR memory. Kind of makes you want to rethink how we do framebuffers a little bit eh? That review is here:

http://www.arstechnica.com/cpu/2q00/ps2/ps2vspc-1.html

[Cappy]

Originally posted by Wyvernspirit
After his last comment everyone went out and got information that completely discredits him. I like google as much as the next guy, but don't base your "facts" on just the first couple of hits on one search engine. If I believed everything of what every media giant says, Apple should of died 12 times by now. I believe they are still around.

Anyone, am I right, is Apple still in business? Still making NEW things?

There's a difference though between facts and opinions. Apples and oranges.

[Cappy]

Originally posted by Booga
I remember seeing and operational FireWire setup displayed at a MacWorld show in the early 90's. This was before it was an IEEE standard. Apple was showing it off and talking about it coming "soon". It took them over five years to bring it to market, by which time SCSI and even IDE had caught up in speed, and USB was standard enough for USB 2.0 to offer real competition.

So, while mozez is completely wrong in his facts (ie. Apple did, in fact, invent 1394,) I kind of agree with his sentiment. Apple has gotten better, but really needs to learn to bring its own and others' high technology to market faster. I think MacOS X, with its nifty driver model and organized development paths, will help, but Apple has to go a bit further with either farming out motherboard components to third parties, or getting in earlier so they have something ready themselves when new technology comes to market. It's nice to see them in early on 3GIO and HyperTransport... maybe the future is brighter in this regard.

It might be a sign of things to come but they are one of the first to deliver a 166Mhz frontside bus in the PC world. AMD is just about there and Intel hasn't made it yet. Many don't realize how significant that actually is even if overclockers on the PC side have been doing this for awhile.

[Cappy]

Originally posted by mozez
by the way, if you want to check out the new boards with agp8x, go to www.tyan.com or www.asustech.com, and even though they are two of the top board makers, they must be "fake" and i must have "gotten there website at gunpoint". as for pci-x there is info on the upcoming boards and how they(tyan, asustech and others) will play a part in newer technologies.
i think if apple truely wants to have the technology at the same time, they will have to look for third parties to make the boards, and work with moto to make the chipset so that things are all running full speed, the way they should. i'm not trying to make anyone mad, i guess i really pissed some people off. sorry, i will post all my sources next time and then maybe the flames will die down...

mozez, frankly you're the one that was fanning the flames. Maybe next time try the stop, drop, and roll method. ;)

Everyone makes mistakes and there's nothing wrong with admitting to it. It helps with credibility then and later. Apple did develop the technology that formed what became 1394, Firewire, and ilink. Sure this is about PCI-Express and AGP 8x but you managed to bring it up and argue the point. Show your sources and point to some facts so that it can rest. I and I think others don't mind being wrong so prove yourself if you believe you're right. One more post on it isn't going to hurt anyone except their pride. :)

And if I'm the moron for bringing this up still so be it. Big deal. I've been labeled as worse and yet it means nothing. Don't make it so personal...just point to some facts.

BTW on the 8x first on the PC. Have you kept up on that side of the fence? It seems that some of those with 8x AGP motherboards are having trouble with some of the 8x AGP cards from ATI. And guess what? It appears to be the motherboard manufacturer's problem. It's not everywhere but it does exist and the motherboard manufacturers are addressing it with bios upgrades. Now wouldn't it be a better plan for Apple to get it right and out somewhat quickly than being first on the block?

They've been slow in the past. There's no arguing that but quality is important for most of the markets they are aiming for.

[mozez]

BTW on the 8x first on the PC. Have you kept up on that side of the fence? It seems that some of those with 8x AGP motherboards are having trouble with some of the 8x AGP cards from ATI. And guess what? It appears to be the motherboard manufacturer's problem. It's not everywhere but it does exist and the motherboard manufacturers are addressing it with bios upgrades. Now wouldn't it be a better plan for Apple to get it right and out somewhat quickly than being first on the block?

i like who wrote this, i was not ever saying the pc was better, or that they did it right, i just said they did it first, it was the same point i had on firewire and 1394, via technologies was one of the first manufacturers of 1394, they said, and state on their site that a technologist from apple concieved the idea for a better way to connect devices, before anything was made or devloped apple had branded and trademarked the idea which the guy could not trademark on his own becuase when you work for a business any work you do involving tech like that is owned by the company you work for unless they do not want it, the same way that apple had to ask permission for their first computers, after this, since apple does not work in hardware like this, they pawned it off to 100s of manufaturers to develop and create, a few boards, from tyan, most with via apollo and other chipsets were the first, but there were some not so known names that had boards with it as well, which brings to the point of what the person with the above quote got to, apple made it better, best, solid as well as all mac developers supported it, with the pc it's usb, then 1394, back and forth, then usb 2, i mean it was a make up your mind game, apple didn't have this problem, nor does it.

so maybe, well no not maybe, i should have made myself more clear and i will fully post my sources at all times from now on, i mean damn did i get flamed for that, which i now understand.

somebody else brought up that agp will die out and even pci x has limits. good point, i personally always hated how there was only one agp slot and how i really wanted a second at the same speed, probably i'd use the same card, we have a mac in the office that has one pci and one agp, now with newer cards i bet this doesn't happen but on ours which is a ati rage 128 and a radeon, well you can see the display speed difference in drawing, so on our dual monitor, it's hrd to work, well, frustrating...

apple is very smart to keep putting money into technoilogies like this, but they also need a team working side by side on it, so they get a piece of it right away as well. they also need, and i hear rumors about it, a high end CAD or video card, such like they used to have the mtrox series in full swing and now they have like 1 item i think, that external box. they need more. for maya i'd love a nvidia geforce 4 quadro 750gxl. things lik this would also help.

hope i'm done being flamed for this thread at least, i'm sure more will come in the future.

[Telomar]

Just to make one important point there is a difference between white box PCs and the top tier PC manufacturers. The top tier manufacturers, like HP and Dell, tend to be far more sluggish with bringing technologies to market.

Unlike the Mac market there is considerably more competition in the PC motherboard market so of course the white box PC market will be first out the door with most technologies. If you want to compare Apple to anyone you need to compare Apple to those larger computer manufacturers and not component companies.

[Chryx]

Originally posted by Cappy

It might be a sign of things to come but they are one of the first to deliver a 166Mhz frontside bus in the PC world. AMD is just about there and Intel hasn't made it yet. Many don't realize how significant that actually is even if overclockers on the PC side have been doing this for awhile.

That kinda fails to impress me in the slightest, as it's still a single data rate bus, so whilst the physical clock might be higher, it's still slower overall by quite a large margin.

could this be the "Bus Mhz Myth" ;)

[DharvaBinky]

Originally posted by shadowfax0
This really makes me think about when to buy a new computer...all these new standards and things, alot of different levels to think on rather the just the CPU or RAM...:eek:

Back in the day, I was the lead technician for an apple repair house, and then moved into sales... Coming from the "honest and upfront" level of customer service that I got in tech, I told my customers in sales this:

"Today is the worst day to buy a computer. It's true. Next week, there will be something faster, better, and cheaper. But that will also be true of the week after that and the week after that. If you need it now, buy it now. If you can wait, wait. It's not a question of will I make out better if I wait, it should be a question of, how can this computer help me now."

Strangely... that usually sold them right away. <shrug>

:)

Dharvabinky

[DharvaBinky]

Originally posted by Wyvernspirit
After his last comment everyone went out and got information that completely discredits him. I like google as much as the next guy, but don't base your "facts" on just the first couple of hits on one search engine. If I believed everything of what every media giant says, Apple should of died 12 times by now. I believe they are still around.

Anyone, am I right, is Apple still in business? Still making NEW things?

I agree here... Apple is still in business... of setting the bar.

They don't invent every new technology, and how could they, really... what they do is set the usability bar very very high for the rest of the world to try to jump over (and usually fail). USB is a great example. Does USB *still* work quite right in WinXP? Nahhh... it's kinda annoying.

With a few exceptions, Apple is consistently the first to market with a simple and stable implementation of the newest technology. Look at USB 2.0... the chipsets are out en masse, and PC boards are covered with them, but apart from external hard drives, I haven't seen too many USB 2.0 devices out there... And there are still bugs with making 2.0 work with 1.2... A little patience and Apple will have USB 2.0 and it will work, while Wintel people are still having to download the latest versions of drivers from a website...

When it comes to the Interconnect bus, Apple gladly left Texas Instrument's NuBus (I remember *that* particular nightmare) when it was time, and when PCI is dead, they'll leave too. But as the little guy here, they'll *have* to go with whatever Intel starts putting in the standard Spec boards. Otherwise, no one would make cards for it (remember IBM's MicroChannel?). Intel is shying away from Infiniband and emphasizing PCI-X, so I would say that Macs leaving AGP and PCI for PCI-X is kinda a no-brainer... ya know?

Dharvabinky

[pgwalsh]

Originally posted by DharvaBinky
Does USB *still* work quite right in WinXP? Nahhh... it's kinda annoying.
I agree with this statement totally.

I have many headaches with usb devices on wxp pro. For one, many are not hot plugable. I don't know if it's wxp or the company that made the driver. I have a hp 8200 series cd writer and I can't hot plug it. I have to do a restart every time. However I think it's the software that has the issue. The software has also caused some system crashes, but you'd never know without the task manager. But other usb device have problems and it hasn't been a joy in the least.

On my mac I've had only one problem with a usb device and it wasn't too major. My Imation superdisk isn't always recognized. To solve the problem I unplug the power in the back and plugit back in. Then it's recognized. It's one of the first models and I'm sure it's the device and not my mac.