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MacRumors
Jul 14, 2011, 01:56 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/07/14/iphone-5-delayed-because-of-a5-heat-issues/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/07/iphone4_hero.jpg

An unsourced report from Sohu.com, a Chinese website, claims the iPhone 5 is delayed because Apple's A5 processor (currently in the iPad 2) is overheating in the iPhone 5 (http://roll.sohu.com/20110714/n313398592.shtml) (via Google Translate (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&u=http://roll.sohu.com/20110714/n313398592.shtml&ei=SjIfTpOLFsT-sQKZgfGjAw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB4Q7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://roll.sohu.com/20110714/n313398592.shtml%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26prmd%3Divns)):
Due to the emergence of Apple's current A5 processor overheating problem, so Apple will not soon be launching a new generation of the iPhone 5 smartphones, but Apple will launch this fall is still an iPhone 4, enhanced mobile products or the name iPhone 4S, this iPhone 4S is mainly based on the iPhone 4 on minor upgrades and no significant upgrade.Apple is widely expected to introduce a new iPhone later this year, and regardless of whether it is dubbed the "iPhone 5" or some other name, there has been considerable disagreement over whether the device will be a major revamp or simply a minor upgrade (or both, by launching two new phones) to the existing iPhone 4. Some have suggested that the confusion stems from Apple testing the substantially-revamped iPhone 5 internals within iPhone 4-like enclosures for secrecy, so it is far from certain just what Apple is planning to introduce for its next iPhone update.

Hat tip to 9to5Mac (http://9to5mac.com/2011/07/14/rumor-iphone-5-not-arriving-soon-because-the-a5-chip-is-overheating/).

Article Link: "iPhone 5" Delayed Because of A5 Heat Issues? (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/07/14/iphone-5-delayed-because-of-a5-heat-issues/)



macduke
Jul 14, 2011, 01:57 PM
I've been thinking this all along. Think about it. The iPad 2's chip is a lot bigger than the one in the iPhone. They need to move to smaller die sizes. This will not only create a smaller chip but one that is more energy efficient.

This could give slightly more credence to the idea of an iPhone 5/ iPhone 4S/lite or whatever. Two models, one with a larger screen. Perhaps the slightly larger enclosure would make room for the chip and give it more breathing room as far as heat dissipation?

Northgrove
Jul 14, 2011, 02:00 PM
My iPad 2 isn't feeling terribly hot, and with a similarly thin form factor, why would it be a greater problem on an iPhone 5? I assume the A5 chip has identical size in both cases. Is it harder to provide good heat dissipation in the iPhone? Just trying to understand the issue here as a novice. :p

chrmjenkins
Jul 14, 2011, 02:00 PM
You mean to tell me that a processor that Apple exclusively controlled the development over won't fit into an enclosure that has also been exclusively developed by Apple, specifically one of two (or more) form factors designed specifically to house said processor? And on a manufacturing process that they've already manufactured on?

Sorry, don't buy it.

wordoflife
Jul 14, 2011, 02:01 PM
I hope that they'll still be able to throw in a dual core processor into the iPhone, provided they fix the heat issue. The speeds would be insane.

ImNoSuperMan
Jul 14, 2011, 02:01 PM
This sounds like Power book G5 all over again :P

I've been thinking this all along. Think about it. The iPad 2's chip is a lot bigger than the one in the iPhone. They need to move to smaller die sizes. This will not only create a smaller chip but one that is more energy efficient.


Thats what I was thinking too.

autrefois
Jul 14, 2011, 02:02 PM
After antennagate comes heatgate.

"You're holding it too much."

"Using any mobile phone will result in some production of heat. This is a fact of life for every wireless phone..."

chaos86
Jul 14, 2011, 02:04 PM
You mean to tell me that a processor that Apple exclusively controlled the development over won't fit into an enclosure that has also been exclusively developed by Apple, specifically one of two (or more) form factors designed specifically to house said processor? And on a manufacturing process that they've already manufactured on?

Sorry, don't buy it.

You realize that the enclosure people and the chip design people are different right? They've probably never even met.

It's bad metaphor time!
Have you ever overeaten? You know the size of your stomach, and yet you put more food on your plate than you should have. I don't buy it.

AppleInLVX
Jul 14, 2011, 02:04 PM
Maybe they'll build a fan into it. :p

saving107
Jul 14, 2011, 02:05 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

After antennagate comes heatgate.

"You're holding it too much."

"Using any mobile phone will result in some production of heat. This is a fact of life for every wireless phone..."

That's funny

longofest
Jul 14, 2011, 02:05 PM
So, how exactly does one qualify "minor" vs "major" changes? Until now, we've heard fairly routinely that the next iPhone will get an 8MP camera, an A5 chip, and HSPA+ support. While that is quite a bit of horsepower, a lot of people still qualify that as "minor" upgrades and will only qualify it as a major upgrade if the case is changed.

I do think that if the A5 chip is dropped from the update, I'd start considering more of a minor update, but I do think we should being a little more purposeful about how we describe what we expect a "minor" vs "major" update to be.

whoami
Jul 14, 2011, 02:09 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Mobile/9A5259f)

Sounds to me like somebody is toying with the "analysts"

chrmjenkins
Jul 14, 2011, 02:14 PM
You realize that the enclosure people and the chip design people are different right? They've probably never even met.

It's bad metaphor time!
Have you ever overeaten? You know the size of your stomach, and yet you put more food on your plate than you should have. I don't buy it.

I'm talking about the phone enclosure.

If you're referring to the chip packaging, of course that's done elsewhere, but Apple would have been intimately aware of the process as it went along. To think that they would know what they were dealing with in terms of package size (which, BTW, a larger package gives the chip more area to dissipate heat) yet still made a blunder of this level when they had so many knobs of control over the whole process is hard to swallow.

Your analogy isn't relevant. They would have known precise quantities for each throughout the process.

So, how exactly does one qualify "minor" vs "major" changes? Until now, we've heard fairly routinely that the next iPhone will get an 8MP camera, an A5 chip, and HSPA+ support. While that is quite a bit of horsepower, a lot of people still qualify that as "minor" upgrades and will only qualify it as a major upgrade if the case is changed.

I do think that if the A5 chip is dropped from the update, I'd start considering more of a minor update, but I do think we should being a little more purposeful about how we describe what we expect a "minor" vs "major" update to be.

IMO, even if it is the A5 and nothing else, that's still major. greater than 2x the CPU power and many times over GPU power.

I've been thinking this all along. Think about it. The iPad 2's chip is a lot bigger than the one in the iPhone. They need to move to smaller die sizes. This will not only create a smaller chip but one that is more energy efficient.

Bigger die size means bigger package means more area to dissipate heat. Bigger die is only bad in that it eats area from the board for other things. Also, smaller chip does not imply more efficient. Efficiency is a rating of processing power vs. energy used. If you increase in size, you also increase in processing power, and not all circuitry is always actively being used. Unused portions are often power gated so they can "sleep" and sip power.

In my opinion, I can buy that the iPhone 5 has been delayed because of some difficulty in assembly, problems acquiring parts, etc. I do not buy that Apple made a blunder on heat dissipation when all of the variables were in their hands.

A later summer/early fall iPhone 5 launch also makes sense in the context that verizon iphone 4 and white iphone 4 launches have prolonged the iphone 4's life. This release also allows it to coincide with the ipod touch releases and additionally evens out the demand curve for A5 processors when you consider the iPad 2 boom and iphone 5 will be close to half a year apart as opposed to a mere 2 months.

Aduntu
Jul 14, 2011, 02:15 PM
That's funny

We must define funny differently.

slrandall
Jul 14, 2011, 02:23 PM
Apple is all about flash and cool. No way do they delay the release of their most popular product without a huge upgrade. It'd be a major "What the hell ..." moment for average consumers, and Steve Jobs would not let that happen. He is, after all, a computer guy with an excellent mind for PR.

chaos86
Jul 14, 2011, 02:29 PM
I'm talking about the phone enclosure.
Yes, I got that. The Ph.D of Engineering holding microprocessor guys who designed the chip itself, and the Masters of Fine Arts or Arts degree holding Industrial Designers probably have never met.


They would have known precise quantities for each throughout the process.

Nope. For a long time now, chip companies have been developing newer and faster technologies, building them into chips, and checking the tolerances to see how fast it can get before it melts. They literally make a new chip and slowly turn up the mhz on it to see where it fails, then they back off a bit. In fact, when they make a "line" of chips, they make them all the same way and test each one to that failure point. The i7s that hit 3.6ghz without failing get set to 3.5 and shipped for more than the onces that failed at 3.2 and ship at 3.07. That's why overclocking works if you have a big heatsink.

In the case of the A5 chips, when they started working on them years ago (when the iPhone was 1.5x the thickness), they had 3 constraints:
a max size (imposed by the designers),
a max temperature (imposed by themselves and by the hardware itself),
and a min speed (imposed by the marketers, the software guys, and us, the users).

All three of those constraints have changed over the years, and they're a balancing act anyway. I.e. reducing size means reducing speed or increasing cooling, and someone has to choose.


As you may have noticed when you last picked up a MacBook Air, Apple demands that all those factors are pushed all the way to their limits. When they put the A5s in the iPad 2, they hit those limits, backed off a little, and shipped it. Now when they put it in the iPhone 5, either the temperature or the size constraint (or both) has been lowered, and they can't very well back down the speed.

If the story is true, we'll either see some fancy new cooling, some fancy new size, or some lower speed.

BJWanlund
Jul 14, 2011, 02:43 PM
I'm not willing to believe this because the rumours themselves and even the sources are extremely suspect.

First that non-story about the OS X 10.7 Lion not coming out this week (guys, chill, there's 2 more days this week [those being Friday and Saturday] on which a release could happen!!!), and now this?

If this rumor can be authenticated by an actual trusted source within Apple, I'll probably have no choice but to get an iPhone 4 on AT&T and an iPad 2 on Verizon and just suck it up and deal with it.

BJ

chrmjenkins
Jul 14, 2011, 02:48 PM
Yes, I got that. The Ph.D of Engineering holding microprocessor guys who designed the chip itself, and the Masters of Fine Arts or Arts degree holding Industrial Designers probably have never met.

The Industrial Designers are just as likely to be Science degree holders as they are art degree holders. The mechanical engineers who assist the Industrial designer in ensuring their designs meet thermal, rigidity, manufacturability etc. exclusively will have science degrees. And I assure you, they have met. I talk with my mechanical engineering counterparts daily to make sure we're in compliance.


Nope. For a long time now, chip companies have been developing newer and faster technologies, building them into chips, and checking the tolerances to see how fast it can get before it melts. They literally make a new chip and slowly turn up the mhz on it to see where it fails, then they back off a bit. In fact, when they make a "line" of chips, they make them all the same way and test each one to that failure point. The i7s that hit 3.6ghz without failing get set to 3.5 and shipped for more than the onces that failed at 3.2 and ship at 3.07. That's why overclocking works if you have a big heatsink.

Which has nothing to do with them knowing reasonable bounds for package, chip and enclosure dimensions. These guys know where they are heading 2 years ahead of time and the people that build their stuff will constantly be promising of what they are capable of just around the corner to keep their business.

In the case of the A5 chips, when they started working on them years ago (when the iPhone was 1.5x the thickness), they had 3 constraints:
a max size (imposed by the designers),
a max temperature (imposed by themselves and by the hardware itself),
and a min speed (imposed by the marketers, the software guys, and us, the users).

Years ago they knew the iphone would be what thickness it currently is. They knew the relative size of the components they had to fit. The max temperature is relatively constant because it's a max junction temperature determined by the process. Marketers wouldn't have a min speed in mind because apple specifically doesn't advertise it for the iphone.

All three of those constraints have changed over the years, and they're a balancing act anyway. I.e. reducing size means reducing speed or increasing cooling, and someone has to choose.

They're working on the same process with the same transistor library. They knew what they were getting into.


As you may have noticed when you last picked up a MacBook Air, Apple demands that all those factors are pushed all the way to their limits. When they put the A5s in the iPad 2, they hit those limits, backed off a little, and shipped it. Now when they put it in the iPhone 5, either the temperature or the size constraint (or both) has been lowered, and they can't very well back down the speed.

If the story is true, we'll either see some fancy new cooling, some fancy new size, or some lower speed.

Decreasing the speed wouldn't be an issue because it's not advertised, nor is it unknown territory. They downclocked the A4 for the iPhone 4 already, so that in itself wouldn't be a reason to delay unless they grossly underestimated the dissipation of this chip (this is especially pertinent given how fast the A4 already is for iOS. iOS 5 seemingly has no new speed demands and the A5 is 1.25 faster clock for clock on a single core. This is dual core. They could run it slower than the A4 and it'd still be faster). Couple this with the fact that Samsung's Exynos processor is very similar in design to the A5, is clocked at 1.2 GHz and fits inside a phone thinner than the iphone 4 with no reported heat problems that I've seen. I simply don't find excessive processor heat likely when they've been holding all the cards the whole time.

In fact, if you want to get precise, where the A5 and Exynos differ most is the GPU. However, since the GPU is orders of magnitude more powerful than before, they could downclock the hell out of it and it'd still be faster than the SGX 535 in the A4.

michaelsviews
Jul 14, 2011, 02:56 PM
I've been waiting for a good technology story to come along and say delays on the iPhone 5 along with size, heat, memory and any other problem some yeahoo can come up with.

Sit back and relax and hurry up and wait.

Oh Sams is selling the iPhone 4 for 146.00 w/2 year contract of course.

BornAgainMac
Jul 14, 2011, 03:01 PM
I had this vision of Steve Jobs using a string that suspends the iPhone in mid air and operating it with voice commands and hand gestures. "...and we also solved the Antenna issues too."

iansilv
Jul 14, 2011, 03:02 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_8 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8E401 Safari/6533.18.5)

Oh no! This could be the misstep that allows RIM to retake the smartphone leadership crown!!!!!

MJL
Jul 14, 2011, 03:10 PM
After antennagate comes heatgate.

"You're holding it too much."

"Using any mobile phone will result in some production of heat. This is a fact of life for every wireless phone..."

"You're holding it too close to your head"

Using any mobile phone will result in some slow cooking of the brain cells but you won't notice it because the brain does not register pain. Only over time you'll discover that you have difficulty thinking - in other words you slowly go brain dead. This is a fact of life for every wireless phone..Unfortunately there is so much investment by the big telecommunications industry in this that it is wiped under the table however the long term problems are far bigger than those of smoking. Already we see a large increase in brain tumours in children whose parents gave them a mobile phone at a young age.

Day48
Jul 14, 2011, 03:12 PM
This is one of those rumors out of Apple that is controlled by Apple in order to make sure peoples high hopes aren't crushed (cause everybody wants technology in their phone that is way before the time). If they tell you they are coming out with an iPhone 4S or whatever other rumored names and they come out with an iPhone 5 with new everything, then we will all be excited... I don't buy it.

Pretty sure they have been working on iPhone 5 since before iPhone 4 was launched...

chrmjenkins
Jul 14, 2011, 03:19 PM
This is one of those rumors out of Apple that is controlled by Apple in order to make sure peoples high hopes aren't crushed (cause everybody wants technology in their phone that is way before the time). If they tell you they are coming out with an iPhone 4S or whatever other rumored names and they come out with an iPhone 5 with new everything, then we will all be excited... I don't buy it.

Pretty sure they have been working on iPhone 5 since before iPhone 4 was launched...

Since the iPhone launch is imminent, but not being launched in the normal time frame, everyone is chomping at the bit for news. Any news could be potential money for a false informant or advertising for a blog that publishes it to get page hits. Think about the sheer volume of contradicting iPhone 5 rumors we've had. They can't all be true, yet they all get page hits and produce ad revenue.

I've found that it's worth paying attention to Gruber and Toplosky. Everyone else I take with a HUGE grain of salt.

nanotlj
Jul 14, 2011, 03:20 PM
Why would apple delay the iphone 4s or 5 if it is only iOS5 upgrade? Either this source supplier is super stupid, or again they are stupid enough to think that apple will introduce the same iphone 4 like after 15 months.
Stop those ********!

willisbr
Jul 14, 2011, 03:26 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

A smart "leak" if you were trying to sell off the last bit of iPhone 4 stock. I personally have been holding out on a replacing my wife's busted iPhone 4 until falls iPhone 5 but clearly they won't have one then? BS. It shows up. That's where my bet is.

MarkCollette
Jul 14, 2011, 03:39 PM
So, how exactly does one qualify "minor" vs "major" changes? Until now, we've heard fairly routinely that the next iPhone will get an 8MP camera, an A5 chip, and HSPA+ support. While that is quite a bit of horsepower, a lot of people still qualify that as "minor" upgrades and will only qualify it as a major upgrade if the case is changed.

Jesus, since when is a much faster CPU/GPU, twice as fast network speeds and almost 2x as better of a camera, a minor update for a phone!? What are we expecting, nuclear powered and doubles as a hover board?

Day48
Jul 14, 2011, 03:40 PM
Jesus, since when is a much faster CPU/GPU, twice as fast network speeds and almost 2x as better of a camera, a minor update for a phone!? What are we expecting, nuclear powered and doubles as a hover board?

oh i love the hover board idea...

shartypants
Jul 14, 2011, 03:48 PM
Maybe Apple should make the back aluminum instead of glass.

felgatec
Jul 14, 2011, 03:59 PM
Apple is all about flash and cool. No way do they delay the release of their most popular product without a huge upgrade. It'd be a major "What the hell ..." moment for average consumers, and Steve Jobs would not let that happen. He is, after all, a computer guy with an excellent mind for PR.


actually i dont think apple is "all about flash" cause they still dont have flash on their phones yet.... lol just felt like making a pun

cvaldes
Jul 14, 2011, 04:22 PM
You realize that the enclosure people and the chip design people are different right? They've probably never even met.
Shouldn't matter. The chip design people are supposed to produce a part with a specific thermal design power (TDP) rating.

The thermal design engineers plug in all the numbers (including the enclosure specifications) into a computational fluid dynamics (CFD) program and run the simulation.

Sure, the theoretical design would be verified with physical prototype units in a lab, however, I find this rumor implausible. After all, if it's the same SoC as what's in the iPad 2, Apple should be highly aware of the A5's characteristics.

lilcosco08
Jul 14, 2011, 04:44 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_8 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8E401 Safari/6533.18.5)

Oh no! This could be the misstep that allows RIM to retake the smartphone leadership crown!!!!!

http://webservice.imagesauce.net/image/626279/400x.jpg

Dan--
Jul 14, 2011, 04:58 PM
Shouldn't matter. The chip design people are supposed to produce a part with a specific thermal design power (TDP) rating.

Sure, the theoretical design would be verified with physical prototype units in a lab, however, I find this rumor implausible. After all, if it's the same SoC as what's in the iPad 2, Apple should be highly aware of the A5's characteristics.

Yep. This rumor has to be highly suspect. As far as I can tell, the TDP of the A4 was 1W (http://www.electronista.com/articles/11/01/24/nvidia.tegra.3.leaks.with.late.2011.ship.date/), and the A5 is 0.5W (http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2011/03/ipad-2-the-ars-review.ars/3). That's not gonna cause a heat issue.

viscanti
Jul 14, 2011, 05:17 PM
I still don't buy the iPhone 4S rumors. If they were going to release a "small" spec bump for the iPhone, they would have done so on their normal release schedule. They don't break with tradition, knowing that lots of 3GS owners will be coming off contract, to leave that group waiting around for months on a minor upgrade. Minor updates are easy, and don't require Apple to delay their release.

carterpape
Jul 14, 2011, 05:19 PM
Lol, imagine your iPhone just bursting into flames out of nowhere.:D That's the thought I had when I read "overheating."

rick98761
Jul 14, 2011, 05:41 PM
Funny. My iPad 1 would overheat all the time when used in the Sun. I've been using my iPad 2 outside in the Sun on way hotter days and haven't had it overheat once. I thought the a5 was running cooler due to this reason.

akarmenia
Jul 14, 2011, 05:53 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Mobile/8J2)

Lies. The upcoming iPhone is very likely the iPhone 5. iOS 5, iPod touch 5th gen etc. It's marketing. And I highly doubt they'll change the screen size.

admanimal
Jul 14, 2011, 06:01 PM
EDIT: ignore this post

Nukemkb
Jul 14, 2011, 06:05 PM
Nice rumor, but it comes with a rather large grain-of-salt to me.:p

kdarling
Jul 14, 2011, 06:09 PM
Some have suggested that the confusion stems from Apple testing the substantially-revamped iPhone 5 internals within iPhone 4-like enclosures for secrecy, ...

Last year, Apple's secrecy fetish allowed the iPhone 4 antenna mistake to slip through, all because test phones were wrapped in fake 3GS cases.

This year, maybe they're finding out that faster chips work fine when enclosed in an iPhone 4 case for secret tests, but overheat in the actual production iPhone 5 shell.

Dear Apple: just make each new device as it's supposed to be made, then stick on a fake "Samsung" label to satisfy the curiosity of any accidental observers. There you go: instant test secrecy and no mistakes. You're welcome. :)

backinblack875
Jul 14, 2011, 06:16 PM
Last year, Apple's secrecy fetish allowed the iPhone 4 antenna mistake to slip through, all because test phones were wrapped in fake 3GS cases.

This year, maybe they're finding out that faster chips work fine when enclosed in an iPhone 4 case for secret tests, but overheat in the actual production iPhone 5 shell.

Dear Apple: just make each new device as it's supposed to be made, then stick on a fake "Samsung" label to satisfy the curiosity of any accidental observers. There you go: instant test secrecy and no mistakes. You're welcome. :)

you think because they used fake 3gs shells out in public, they never tested the antenna in any other way??? haha ok....

mdriftmeyer
Jul 14, 2011, 06:54 PM
I've been thinking this all along. Think about it. The iPad 2's chip is a lot bigger than the one in the iPhone. They need to move to smaller die sizes. This will not only create a smaller chip but one that is more energy efficient.

This could give slightly more credence to the idea of an iPhone 5/ iPhone 4S/lite or whatever. Two models, one with a larger screen. Perhaps the slightly larger enclosure would make room for the chip and give it more breathing room as far as heat dissipation?

It's a good thing they never thought of that in their Chip roadmap.

Come on now, the chip die targets have been set a year in advance. Most certainly this version of the A5 is not a straight drop in from the iPad 2.

SdPunk
Jul 14, 2011, 06:55 PM
I don't buy the iPhone 4s rumor as well. It would piss off a lot of customers. The 5 is long overdue. I love my 4, but it is time to move on. :D

chrmjenkins
Jul 14, 2011, 06:56 PM
you think because they used fake 3gs shells out in public, they never tested the antenna in any other way??? haha ok....

The first two paragraphs were what we call the set-up. The last paragraph was what we call the punchline. By their powers combined, we have a joke.

Rodimus Prime
Jul 14, 2011, 07:09 PM
you think because they used fake 3gs shells out in public, they never tested the antenna in any other way??? haha ok....

knowing Apple chances are yes they did not properly test the design. The bigger issue with the antenta was how Apple denied denied denied it being a problem even in the end it was worse. I would not be surpised in the least to find out that the drop call rate was a near a 50%+ jump over the 3gs. (remember Apple said less than 1 per 100 over the 3GS but that number is useless unless we know what the 3GS drop rate call rate was. I am willing to bet the 3GS drop call rate was with in norms and was under 1 per 100.

Apple screwed up in the design and it was acting like it was not an issue that blew up in their face and the fake that it would be done with a pinky.

As for kdarling suggestoin yeah Apple could easy cover it up from happening again by slapping lets say Motorola, LG or Samsung label on the test device and no one would be the wiser.

Dr McKay
Jul 14, 2011, 07:14 PM
My iPad 2 isn't feeling terribly hot, and with a similarly thin form factor, why would it be a greater problem on an iPhone 5? I assume the A5 chip has identical size in both cases. Is it harder to provide good heat dissipation in the iPhone? Just trying to understand the issue here as a novice. :p

Well your iPad 2 has a very large surface area to dissipate the heat over, in comparison the iPhone is a tiny and cramped environment, and heat will build up.

MacFly123
Jul 14, 2011, 07:19 PM
POWER BOOK G5 REINCARNATEEEE!!!!! :eek: :(

I really hope this is not true. But I am not getting the next iPhone. I have the iPhone 4 and I have found upgrading every other year is working just fine :) I will definitely enjoy iOS 5 on my iPhone 4 though! :cool:

captain kaos
Jul 14, 2011, 07:25 PM
Yep. This rumor has to be highly suspect. As far as I can tell, the TDP of the A4 was 1W (http://www.electronista.com/articles/11/01/24/nvidia.tegra.3.leaks.with.late.2011.ship.date/), and the A5 is 0.5W (http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2011/03/ipad-2-the-ars-review.ars/3). That's not gonna cause a heat issue.

Not to get excited about battery life on the next phone, but if it is A5 based would we be looking at having twice the battery life if its using 1/2 the wattage of the A4?

:)

Rodimus Prime
Jul 14, 2011, 07:46 PM
My iPad 2 isn't feeling terribly hot, and with a similarly thin form factor, why would it be a greater problem on an iPhone 5? I assume the A5 chip has identical size in both cases. Is it harder to provide good heat dissipation in the iPhone? Just trying to understand the issue here as a novice. :p

Ipad chip is larger in physical size that mean that it dumps heat better and compressing the size of the chip could easily increase the heat from the chip so now you have less area to dump the heat and a lot more to deal with.

captain kaos
Jul 14, 2011, 07:56 PM
I guess that even if the processor is bigger, therefore dissipates heat better, that heat has to go somewhere, ie into the case. But as mentioned earlier, im sure apple knows the thermal dissipation of any case they're making.

MattInOz
Jul 14, 2011, 08:29 PM
Yep. This rumor has to be highly suspect. As far as I can tell, the TDP of the A4 was 1W (http://www.electronista.com/articles/11/01/24/nvidia.tegra.3.leaks.with.late.2011.ship.date/), and the A5 is 0.5W (http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2011/03/ipad-2-the-ars-review.ars/3). That's not gonna cause a heat issue.

Add to that the iFixit Teardowns have confirmed the A4 and A5 are the same package size despite the chip area being bigger.

So it really does seem like a stretch of a rumor...

Not to get excited about battery life on the next phone, but if it is A5 based would we be looking at having twice the battery life if its using 1/2 the wattage of the A4?

:)

Only if you never turn the screen backlight on. ;)

admanimal
Jul 14, 2011, 08:55 PM
knowing Apple chances are yes they did not properly test the design.

Did you miss the part where they took the media on a tour of their ultra-high tech and expensive testing facilities? There is no way that Apple didn't know exactly how the antenna would perform. They just decided for one reason or another that it was acceptable.

IzzyJG99
Jul 14, 2011, 09:23 PM
My iPad 2 isn't feeling terribly hot, and with a similarly thin form factor, why would it be a greater problem on an iPhone 5? I assume the A5 chip has identical size in both cases. Is it harder to provide good heat dissipation in the iPhone? Just trying to understand the issue here as a novice. :p

I think the A5 does okay in the iPad case because of the case. It's bigger than the iPhone case. So I think that if you stick an A5 right next to a power source, 802.11 transceiver and a 3G Cell Transceiver...the collective heat of all of it together is too much for the form factor.

Not to mention everyone who uses an iPhone keeps them in protective cases. When I charge my iPhone 4 inside of it's Otterbox case it feels quite warm. It makes you wonder if they do heat tests on their prototypes outside of a protective case or in or maybe both.

But that's just my .02 cents.

wovel
Jul 14, 2011, 09:31 PM
Ipad chip is larger in physical size that mean that it dumps heat better and compressing the size of the chip could easily increase the heat from the chip so now you have less area to dump the heat and a lot more to deal with.

Not sure whynyou think this I'd true. Do you have the dimensions of the iPad and iPhone 4 A4s...

longofest
Jul 14, 2011, 09:59 PM
Jesus, since when is a much faster CPU/GPU, twice as fast network speeds and almost 2x as better of a camera, a minor update for a phone!? What are we expecting, nuclear powered and doubles as a hover board?

I agree that those updates would be significant, but would it qualify as an iPhone 4S or iPhone 5? Remember that apple increased exactly those specs (camera, processor, network) with the iPhone 3G -> 3GS move, which I think most considered a more modest update.

JAT
Jul 14, 2011, 10:39 PM
After antennagate comes heatgate.

"You're holding it too much."

"Using any mobile phone will result in some production of heat. This is a fact of life for every wireless phone..."
My 4 gets pretty hot all the time. From gaming.

I've found that it's worth paying attention to Gruber and Toplosky. Everyone else I take with a HUGE grain of salt.
Where do people get these giant salt crystals? I want some!
Lol, imagine your iPhone just bursting into flames out of nowhere.:D That's the thought I had when I read "overheating."
I think there's an app for that.
Nice rumor, but it comes with a rather large grain-of-salt to me.:p
Really! I want the big salt!
knowing Apple chances are yes they did not properly test the design. The bigger issue with the antenta was how Apple denied denied denied it being a problem even in the end it was worse. I would not be surpised in the least to find out that the drop call rate was a near a 50%+ jump over the 3gs. (remember Apple said less than 1 per 100 over the 3GS but that number is useless unless we know what the 3GS drop rate call rate was. I am willing to bet the 3GS drop call rate was with in norms and was under 1 per 100.

Apple screwed up in the design and it was acting like it was not an issue that blew up in their face and the fake that it would be done with a pinky.

As for kdarling suggestoin yeah Apple could easy cover it up from happening again by slapping lets say Motorola, LG or Samsung label on the test device and no one would be the wiser.
Does the hate cause you heartburn? There's just so much of it. Try Tums.

Rodimus Prime
Jul 14, 2011, 10:47 PM
Did you miss the part where they took the media on a tour of their ultra-high tech and expensive testing facilities? There is no way that Apple didn't know exactly how the antenna would perform. They just decided for one reason or another that it was acceptable.

You mean the same type of set up any cell manufacturer would have? Sorry but that is a lab which means limited testing with a handful of people. It is not the real world. There is a reason everyone else have the real phone real world testing which apple does not do. That is why it was missed. This followed by Apple cover up is why they got so much heat.

neko girl
Jul 14, 2011, 11:02 PM
There is a reason everyone else have the real phone real world testing which apple does not do. That is why it was missed.
Rodimus, sometimes I wonder why you spend so much time spreading FUD. You have as much of an idea about Apple's antenna testing as you do Samsung's or HTC's. You have no concrete working knowledge, and are working off your opinion.

I agree the iPhone 4 antenna is an issue. I do believe you're part of a cult that likes to blow it up bigger than it is (a good lot of which brought Antennagate about).

This followed by Apple cover up is why they got so much heat.
So much heat that Apple can't make iPhone 4s fast enough to sell them. Yes. More Rodimus truth. Apple happens to be the only mobile phone manufacturer with any significant market share growth last quarter.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/comscore-reports-april-2011-us-mobile-subscriber-market-share-123098853.html

Continue to be baffled by your unnecessary anti-Apple rhetoric.

res1233
Jul 14, 2011, 11:15 PM
Rodimus, sometimes I wonder why you spend so much time spreading FUD. You have as much of an idea about Apple's antenna testing as you do Samsung's or HTC's. You have no concrete working knowledge, and are working off your opinion.

I agree the iPhone 4 antenna is an issue. I do believe you're part of a cult that likes to blow it up bigger than it is (a good lot of which brought Antennagate about).


So much heat that Apple can't make iPhone 4s fast enough to sell them. Yes. More Rodimus truth. Apple happens to be the only mobile phone manufacturer with any significant market share growth last quarter.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/comscore-reports-april-2011-us-mobile-subscriber-market-share-123098853.html

Continue to be baffled by your unnecessary anti-Apple rhetoric.

My name is res1233 and I approve this message. I think some people prefer to think in the abstract rather than the concrete, if you get what I'm saying. Believing something is true rather than actually knowing it is. Can't say I never do that though. :p

Rodimus Prime
Jul 14, 2011, 11:54 PM
So much heat that Apple can't make iPhone 4s fast enough to sell them. Yes. More Rodimus truth. Apple happens to be the only mobile phone manufacturer with any significant market share growth last quarter.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/comscore-reports-april-2011-us-mobile-subscriber-market-share-123098853.html

Continue to be baffled by your unnecessary anti-Apple rhetoric.

I love the "Your argument is no good because Apple sells so well"

Sorry the press gave them a lot of crap over it and rightfully so. That does not make it heat.
Also the fact that Apple could sell dog crap in a box really well is another reason that the selling argument is crap.

You even admitted antennagate was an issue and Apple screwed up.
I would not of cared until it got bigger in the news and then Apple started trying to cover it up and then tried to drag everyone else under the bus. If Apple had come out and said sorry we made a mistake it would of been dead but Apple being it standard arrogant self came out and tried to cover it up with media BS like the testing room acting like they are the one ones who have a place like that. Sadly the dumb masses bought that hook line and sinker which simple logic tells you all the big cell companies would have rooms if not even multiple rooms and testing like that.

It was the cover up that got them the heat from the press.

locust76
Jul 15, 2011, 04:04 AM
I don't buy it.

First, the A5 isn't brand new and works just fine in the iPad.

Second, the iPhone implementation has historically always been underclocked in comparison to the iPad implementation, meaning even LESS heat output than an iPad.

So no.

Plus, a dual-core ARM9 isn't exactly bleeding edge **** nowadays.

bushido
Jul 15, 2011, 05:14 AM
Jesus, since when is a much faster CPU/GPU, twice as fast network speeds and almost 2x as better of a camera, a minor update for a phone!? What are we expecting, nuclear powered and doubles as a hover board?

as long as it keeps the same design its a minor update imo. i need a bigger screen my iPhone 4 looks like a baby next to all those android phones. the average customer doesnt really care much for tech specs besides the more pixel the "better" and is all hooked onto designs. i bet if u hold a 3G next to a 3GS half the people wouldnt realize its a different phone.

Alvi
Jul 15, 2011, 06:56 AM
I still don't buy the iPhone 4S rumors. If they were going to release a "small" spec bump for the iPhone, they would have done so on their normal release schedule. They don't break with tradition, knowing that lots of 3GS owners will be coming off contract, to leave that group waiting around for months on a minor upgrade. Minor updates are easy, and don't require Apple to delay their release.

I am one of those 3GS users waiting for the new iPhone and I buy those rumors because a small spec bump comes perfect along with the new iOS5.
I wish it will be an all-new design with a lot of new features but I doubt it will need to be an iPhone 5 instead of an iPhone 4G/4S. It's just a new iOS which doesn't do "dramatic" stuff like iOS4 did with multitasking that might need a whole redesign to fit a better processor/display, as a matter of fact the iPhone 4 Runs it pretty smoothly already, a better processor will be just futureproofing for iOS6 and so on.

There's no reason to be mad because a company that makes phones hasn't released something that they haven't even announced. (*coughs*Lion*coughs*)

Stok3
Jul 15, 2011, 07:07 AM
as long as it keeps the same design its a minor update imo. i need a bigger screen my iPhone 4 looks like a baby next to all those android phones. the average customer doesnt really care much for tech specs besides the more pixel the "better" and is all hooked onto designs. i bet if u hold a 3G next to a 3GS half the people wouldnt realize its a different phone.

LOL they may have to use a bigger screen just for a bigger case if this rumor is true

samcraig
Jul 15, 2011, 07:22 AM
ion.

I agree the iPhone 4 antenna is an issue. I do believe you're part of a cult that likes to blow it up bigger than it is (a good lot of which brought Antennagate about).


So much heat that Apple can't make iPhone 4s fast enough to sell them. Yes. More Rodimus truth. Apple happens to be the only mobile phone manufacturer with any significant market share growth last quarter.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/comscore-reports-april-2011-us-mobile-subscriber-market-share-123098853.html

Continue to be baffled by your unnecessary anti-Apple rhetoric.

A cult? Really? What does that make all the people that believe and post over and over that there was never and there is no issue with the iPhone 4? LOL

You're confusing sales with controversy/PR issues.

McDonalds has tremendous sales and marketshare. I think it would be ridiculous to imply they haven't been thrown under the bus several times. But they sell food a lot of people like at a price people are willing to pay.

We won't ever really know (because it won't be divulged) how many returns Apple had on the iPhone 4 or how many people would have bought the iPhone 4 but didn't. The latter part being impossible to determine. So it's truly impossible to measure the actual effect of the negative press. I'm not suggesting the phone isn't or didn't sell well. But the PR "hit" apple took vs sales are two different beasts.

I said this from day one (when I received Steve's email about my antenna issue which was then was featured on this site and others) - the interesting thing to watch will be what is said about the next iteration (4S, 5) or if anything is said at all.

Will they mention the antenna, any redesign, etc - or not. Will the Q&A session hit upon the issue and how will Apple respond.

Will reviewers resurface the issue when the new phone is reviewed (also a sign of a PR hit)

And are "on the fence" people going to wait (longer) to hear more results of the new design before pulling the trigger because of the launch of the iPhone 4.

All interesting things to watch for....

stockscalper
Jul 15, 2011, 08:40 AM
Has to be the chip design then because there are plenty of Androids out there with dual processors and they work fine without overheating. I know firsthand because I dumped my iPhone for one.

Glideslope
Jul 15, 2011, 09:06 AM
Completely Untrue. A scheduled misinformation leak. Getting close. :apple:

drummerdude1390
Jul 15, 2011, 12:35 PM
"You're holding it too close to your head"

Using any mobile phone will result in some slow cooking of the brain cells but you won't notice it because the brain does not register pain. Only over time you'll discover that you have difficulty thinking - in other words you slowly go brain dead. This is a fact of life for every wireless phone..Unfortunately there is so much investment by the big telecommunications industry in this that it is wiped under the table however the long term problems are far bigger than those of smoking. Already we see a large increase in brain tumours in children whose parents gave them a mobile phone at a young age.


what timing. you might be the butt of todays xkcd. http://xkcd.com/925/

firewater101
Jul 15, 2011, 02:20 PM
"You're holding it too close to your head"

Using any mobile phone will result in some slow cooking of the brain cells but you won't notice it because the brain does not register pain. Only over time you'll discover that you have difficulty thinking - in other words you slowly go brain dead. This is a fact of life for every wireless phone..Unfortunately there is so much investment by the big telecommunications industry in this that it is wiped under the table however the long term problems are far bigger than those of smoking. Already we see a large increase in brain tumours in children whose parents gave them a mobile phone at a young age.

Is it hard to read this site with all that tinfoil on your head, or does Dan Rather dictate it to you through your CIA radio implant? On a side note, this story is complete BS. I can write made up stories in Chinese too... well, ok, no I can't.

Mr. Gates
Jul 16, 2011, 09:36 AM
LOL they may have to use a bigger screen just for a bigger case if this rumor is true

Anything for a bigger screen !

blackpond
Jul 16, 2011, 02:31 PM
You mean the same type of set up any cell manufacturer would have? Sorry but that is a lab which means limited testing with a handful of people. It is not the real world. There is a reason everyone else have the real phone real world testing which apple does not do. That is why it was missed. This followed by Apple cover up is why they got so much heat.

So everyone else does lab and real world testing. Apple only does lab testing. Got it.

Apple started trying to cover it up and then tried to drag everyone else under the bus.

Which makes Apple's demonstration of similar failures on those 'real world tested' phones all the more interesting...

rans0m00
Jul 16, 2011, 02:43 PM
Apple is all about flash and cool. No way do they delay the release of their most popular product without a huge upgrade. It'd be a major "What the hell ..." moment for average consumers, and Steve Jobs would not let that happen. He is, after all, a computer guy with an excellent mind for PR.

Odd I had the what the hell thought when they released the white ip4 most likely towards the end of the ip4's cycle

KillerTree
Jul 17, 2011, 12:04 AM
I don't believe this rumor at all. Apple has had plenty of time to test the A5.

Bye Bye Baby
Jul 17, 2011, 12:21 AM
They are already working on an A6 which should be on a smaller dye.

Will be interesting what happens over the next few months.

acurafan
Jul 17, 2011, 12:29 AM
hopefully there won't be another circus with jobs stating how much apple cares and offer another case to help dissipate heat.

Mr. Gates
Jul 17, 2011, 06:34 AM
I don't believe this rumor at all. Apple has had plenty of time to test the A5.

They had plenty of time to test the 4's antennae

Mr Bigs
Jul 17, 2011, 07:42 AM
They had plenty of time to test the 4's antennaePeople seem to forget that of which is still a problem.:confused:

Mr Bigs
Jul 17, 2011, 07:55 AM
Rodimus, sometimes I wonder why you spend so much time spreading FUD. You have as much of an idea about Apple's antenna testing as you do Samsung's or HTC's. You have no concrete working knowledge, and are working off your opinion.

I agree the iPhone 4 antenna is an issue. I do believe you're part of a cult that likes to blow it up bigger than it is (a good lot of which brought Antennagate about).


So much heat that Apple can't make iPhone 4s fast enough to sell them. Yes. More Rodimus truth. Apple happens to be the only mobile phone manufacturer with any significant market share growth last quarter.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/comscore-reports-april-2011-us-mobile-subscriber-market-share-123098853.html

Continue to be baffled by your unnecessary anti-Apple rhetoric.People like yourself are the reason Steve Jobs was able to successfully pull off antennagate by giving people a free case.

DMH3006
Jul 17, 2011, 10:25 AM
People seem to forget that of which is still a problem.:confused:

In my country(Portugal) myself,my mom and dad all have iPhone 4 and do not see the antenna problem,yes it lowers the reception but were still able to use it,networks on USA are probably worst due to the bigger are to cover and more users.

Mr Bigs
Jul 17, 2011, 11:17 AM
In my country(Portugal) myself,my mom and dad all have iPhone 4 and do not see the antenna problem,yes it lowers the reception but were still able to use it,networks on USA are probably worst due to the bigger are to cover and more users.And yet you mom and dad remain hopelessly bonded in Apple darkness.

DMH3006
Jul 17, 2011, 11:32 AM
And yet you mom and dad remain hopelessly bonded in Apple darkness.

wtf?if it's not a problem for us why change?just so we could say we're cool because we got an Android with 5000 settings?we want a phone that just works turn on and there it goes.

winston1236
Jul 17, 2011, 06:23 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_8 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8E401 Safari/6533.18.5)

Oh no! This could be the misstep that allows RIM to retake the smartphone leadership crown!!!!!

BB's are pieces of crap, they are a has been ( the old ones were bulletproof). For example I am in my third BB Torch in less than a year, and I'm not the only one waiting for m contract to expire. Besides the screen resolution is so low i can actually see each individual pixel. So, not likely.

NT1440
Jul 17, 2011, 06:34 PM
Yet another Apple stock game rumor. Anyone that happens to see one of these things should keep in mind Jim Cramer's disgusting (yet widespread) game. This kind of speculator **** is what makes our markets basically the wild west:

http://gizmodo.com/5169230/jon-stewart-vs-jim-cramer-on-manipulating-apple-stock

KillerTree
Jul 17, 2011, 09:11 PM
They had plenty of time to test the 4's antennae

Apple didn't have an iPad with the iPhone 4's antennae design for months before the 4 came out.

neko girl
Jul 18, 2011, 12:32 AM
Also the fact that Apple could sell dog crap in a box really well is another reason that the selling argument is crap.

when I received Steve's email about my antenna issue which was then was featured on this site and others

People like yourself are the reason Steve Jobs was able to successfully pull off antennagate by giving people a free case.

I'm sure you three can read, and I'm sure I made it clear that not only do I believe antennagate is an issue, I can replicate it on my own iPhone. It has not affected my decision to buy and own the phone, because this decision is based on hundreds of variables, not just how the antenna behaves in a very specific case of use. What I did also say that it's likely not an issue for most consumers, and you are making a bigger deal out of it than it really is. Not really sure why I keep seeing post after post after post about it, generally spewing a lot of vitriol.

Feel free to read this article, and the subsequent retraction. The comments are also interesting.
http://www.informationweek.com/byte/news/personal-tech/smart-phones/231001287?nomobile=1

People who blow a fuse about antennagate don't get it. If it is that big of a deal to you, don't buy the phone. This is not a public safety or a public health issue, and I'm not sure why you three are so worked up over it. There are larger consumer protection violations being committed for you to throw your energy into. Really.

Calling the iPhone 4 "dog crap" is probably the lowest form of communication available to you. I'm not sure how to have a conversation after that one.

maclaptop
Jul 18, 2011, 12:50 AM
They had plenty of time to test the 4's antennae

Very true. In addition Jobs was advised well in advance & he still said ship it.

At least this issue (if true) is being outed now, not after we give Apple the money. After years of very good luck with Apple laptops, desktops and accessories, the iPhone 4 was the first significantly faulty product I've experienced. This time around I'll probably pass on iPhone 5, giving Apple another year to get it together.

chrono1081
Jul 18, 2011, 01:28 AM
And yet you mom and dad remain hopelessly bonded in Apple darkness.

Wow that was uncalled for, seeing how is the "problem" is non existant for every person I know with an iPhone 4, myself included.

Mr. Gates
Jul 18, 2011, 09:08 AM
Apple didn't have an iPad with the iPhone 4's antennae design for months before the 4 came out.

That comment doesn't make a lot of sense....

Hardly any really ....


http://www.crazyabouttv.com/Images/monk.jpg

MattInOz
Jul 18, 2011, 08:22 PM
Wow that was uncalled for, seeing how is the "problem" is non existant for every person I know with an iPhone 4, myself included.

Even if I go somewhere I know has poor reception I still can't get my iPhone4 to drop a bar with any of the demonstrated methods.

I'm not saying the problem doesn't exist, but I haven't heard of anyone experiencing it outside of MR.

lilcosco08
Jul 22, 2011, 10:56 PM
what timing. you might be the butt of todays xkcd. http://xkcd.com/925/

There's an XKCD comic for every occasion.

amazingdm
Jul 23, 2011, 03:05 PM
I don't believe the antenna problem. Unless some people just have weird skin. iPhone 4 is a horrible phone to use without a case anyway