we are at war, bring back the draft?

[jefhatfield]

here are the two sides i have heard ever since the end of the draft in the 70s

pro draft message: during the draft, the overall group in the military was more diversified, more educated, had higher test scores, and far less likely to commit crimes

anti draft message: how can a soldier do a good job if he is forced into a job. often a dangerous job, against his will

teens are not old enough to exercise proper judgement and a lot of them are exploited and put in harm's way

btw...personally, i am against the draft, but the arguments for the draft are hard to repute...when the volunteer army military fort was near my house, many of the soldiers were sent there instead of going to jail and the crime rate was ridiculous in the cities surrounding the fort...i am a social worker and the street level crime is now hardly noticeable once the fort left...basically, it took almost all of the "johns" away:p

and it is not just the level of infantrymen enlisted, some of the officers i have met are hardly what one would call college material and one of my officer friends basically said many of his fellow officers are those college graduates who just can't get a real job in the real world

so when a person, usually a right-winger, calls for a draft to up the level of personnel in the army, he/she does have valid points

but i am still against the draft and i hope george w bush and co. don't reinstate it

[vniow]

Ooohhh, I hope not, especially if this is a 'war on terrorism' like Dubya sayz.
Troops are secondary to intelligence in this case.:)

[e-coli]

Is this a real debate? Are they actually considering reinstating the draft?

Thank God I'm 27. Proud to be an old fart. :p

Not certain how I feel about the draft. I am the first generation of my family that hasn't served in the military. It makes me kind of ashamed sometimes. But I am SO NOT military material. I am physically, but I don't have the rank-and-file mindset.

In many countries You have to serve. In Israel, both men and women are obligated. And the argument could be made that if the greater majority had not picked up arms during the Revolution, we wouldn't be here today.

I'm not so certain I believe in the draft. We are already quite the warrior nation.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by e-coli
Is this a real debate? Are they actually considering reinstating the draft?

Thank God I'm 27. Proud to be an old fart. :p

Not certain how I feel about the draft. I am the first generation of my family that hasn't served in the military. It makes me kind of ashamed sometimes. But I am SO NOT military material. I am physically, but I don't have the rank-and-file mindset.

In many countries You have to serve. In Israel, both men and women are obligated. And the argument could be made that if the greater majority had not picked up arms during the Revolution, we wouldn't be here today.

I'm not so certain I believe in the draft. We are already quite the warrior nation.

my friend's older brothers went to vietnam via the draft and some never came back and many of the ones who did were not, and still are not, the same

you are 27 so you are a year beyond the oldest possible age to get drafted...and i am like you, who is not military rank and file type in my thinking

and being almost 39 and somewhat overweight, i may not even be physically acceptable

but i am scared for those young 18 year olds who are physically fit and perhaps have not had the chance to take a stance on this issue which can affect them

there was a press conference with secretary of state rumsfeld after 9/11 talking about the draft and he said...no

it would be political suicide to call for a draft anytime before they really decided on re-instating one

i believe this is an intelligence agency war and not a huge, full scale war like the world wars and vietnam was involving many thousands of draftees

and i don't think a war on terrorism can escalate to that level since the terrorists use terrorist methods because they are small in number so they want to inflict the most possible damage for their small numbers

having a full scale draft and using thousands of draftees will in no way flush out the terrorists who live and train here secretly...the ones who pose a real danger to america

one terrorist living here plotting and not caught is more dangerous than a thousand terrorists over there not having any real way to get here or who are just saber rattling for the sake of show

i think our volunteer military, though not as large or diverse as a draft can bring, are more than capable to hold up their end of the war which will be spearheaded by the fbi, cia, nsa, and other intelligence gathering operations

[e-coli]

I agee for the most part. I'm all for a shady intelligence service. I say go for it if the administration wants to super-size the CIA instead of attacking other peoples and their governments.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by e-coli


super-size the CIA instead of attacking other peoples and their governments.

does that include super size fries and coke?

man, no wonder why i am too heavy for my height...the diet i went on the same time a few months back with rower_cpu is making me delirious...i lost another pound and i am at 168 yesterday!

eight more grueling pounds to go i guess

i notice now with less weight, there are more wrinkles and i a definitely looking more my age:eek: :confused: :rolleyes: :p

[mcrain]

Hmm... you're worried that we can't do anything about the secret people plotting in this country. Yes we can.

Hell yes we can. All Jr. has to do is draft everyone between 18 and 40 with a name like Mohammad or Abdul or whatever, and Dubya can have his religious war for real.

[mcrain]

You know, Jr. can have his own Dresden, he can firebomb the caba (sp?) during the peak days of the pilgrimage.

[Backtothemac]

There is no age limit on the draft. If needed, they could pull every 18 - 60 year old if need by. Generally, in the past, they have cut off at 29.

[dotcomlarry]

There is a draft of sorts already: Selective Service. From their site:

In a crisis requiring a draft, men would be called in sequence determined by random lottery number and year of birth. Then, they would be examined for mental, physical and moral fitness by the military before being deferred or exempted from military service or inducted into the Armed Forces.

More on who must register can be found here (http://www.sss.gov/FSwho.htm).

[e-coli]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
There is no age limit on the draft. If needed, they could pull every 18 - 60 year old if need by. Generally, in the past, they have cut off at 29.

26-29 year-olds were only drafted in WWII. In Vietnam, the cut-off was 25.

Almost all male U.S. citizens, and male aliens living in the U.S., who are 18 through 25, are required to register with Selective Service.

...

A lottery based on birthdays determines the order in which registered men are called up by Selective Service. The first to be called, in a sequence determined by the lottery, will be men whose 20th birthday falls during that year, followed, if needed, by those aged 21, 22, 23, 24 and 25. 18-year-olds and those turning 19 would probably not be drafted.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by e-coli


26-29 year-olds were only drafted in WWII. In Vietnam, the cut-off was 25.



mcrain is 28, oops, i mean he has a 28 incher;)

look at the "creationism" thread;)

[medea]

How much are tickets to Canada going for right now eh?

[evildead]

I am 23 so I am prime draft age. I registered for the draft when I was 17.. they sent me a card in the mail early I guess. I have always been ani-draft and the military is not for me. But If I am called ... I would go. As many of you have said, the military is not a think tank and the type of solders they are getting now are less and less educated while the military is becoming more and more technical. The suport system for a single trouper in the field is something like 1000 people beind him. If I was called, I would most likely get put behind a computer terminal or something related. They have plenty of warm bodies to bull trigers, they need more geeks to get information to and from the field.. that is where the US military is huring.. geeks get paided too much doing other things to think about it... and why on earth would you want to go to boot camp with the same guys that hung your underwear on a flag pole when you were in Jr. High?

[SilvorX]

im really against drafting, its like forcing someone to commit suicide or whatever....n if they have a family already..imagine how it would affect the family long term if the person dies...
i had quite a few relatives in WWII (dunno about WWI tho) n all of them signed up (my dad's dad wasn't allowed in the war cuz most of his brothers were in the war) and my mom's dad volunteered in the war....

if it was just the canadian army and the british army n french army against whoever, then we'dd be in crud, concidering canada's army is under-funded n theres 10s of thousands less soldiers in the canadian army than there was 20 years ago

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by dotcomlarry
In a crisis requiring a draft, men would be called in sequence determined by random lottery number and year of birth. Then, they would be examined for mental, physical and moral fitness by the military before being deferred or exempted from military service or inducted into the Armed Forces.
Hmm... "moral" fitness, eh?

Alright, I've got it: If you want to dodge the draft, at your physical, what you need to do is pull down your pants and begin masturbating furiously. When the doctor asks you what you're doing, explain to him that the aliens need your seed, and ask him if he has any codeine you can borrow, to numb the effects of the aliens' rectal probes. That should pretty much guarantee you a stay at home 'til this whole thing blows over.

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by evildead
and why on earth would you want to go to boot camp with the same guys that hung your underwear on a flag pole when you were in Jr. High?
Ha ha ha... Dork! :D

[Ifeelbloated]

I was in the infantry from 92-94. Just a stint, but what an experience. I decided to join the infantry because first of all it was a challenge. Plus in my mind, if I picked anything else I'd be just punking out. I could go on about the "fraternal arrogance" of the infantry but they are that way for a reason. I resent that people look at grunts like they are dumb cannon fodder. Most of this reasoning comes from human nature recollecting mostly bad experiences with people. I assure you the infantry has good and bad just like any other profession. You got your stars and your sh*theads. Some of the wisest people I've ever met were NCO's that knew their stuff. I credit a lot of the good that I am today to them. The officers who gave a damn, we looked up to. It's HARD. Incredibly hard. Try charging up a hill with 50lbs. of gear on and a 20lb. machine gun carrying 800 rounds of ammo. In 100+ degree heat, over and over. Then try it in full chemical protective gear. Fight and try to stay alive. It takes a special kind of person to do it and stick with it. Also, as with anything, it's what you make of it.
I got out of the Army because I proved to myself that I could do it. I was honorably discharged and I went to college. I didn't punk out. I could hang. I'll forever hold my head up for that.
I see a lot of these college kids these days and sometimes it makes me sick. They have no idea. They could give a crap. I've seen guys die during training; crushed, torn apart, wrong place wrong time. It's disheartening sometimes. But maybe it's for the better, only the few should carry the weight of that knowledge and experience. I know now why veterans don't talk about their experiences. Because people will never look at you the same.
I'll never forget that day when my Drill Sergeant was taking us to chow for one of the last times. We were all tired, he said, "Hold your head up men, you're about to join one of the biggest fraternities in the world!"
We all gave a Hooah that shook the walls.
That feeling, my God I'll never forget that feeling. It's something you will never understand.

[evildead]

Originally posted by alex_ant

Ha ha ha... Dork! :D

I actly didnt put up with those kinds of people... I got into a lot of trouble when I was in school making sure people like that... didnt get to behave anyway they wanted.

I once got sent to the deans office for turning over a kid on my knee and spanking him in public (at school durring lunch) for stealing money from a mentaly retarded student... I told him that "I'm going to spank you like your mama shoulda"... and I did... the dean wasn't too happy about that.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Ifeelbloated
I was in the infantry from 92-94. Just a stint, but what an experience. I decided to join the infantry because first of all it was a challenge. Plus in my mind, if I picked anything else I'd be just punking out. I could go on about the "fraternal arrogance" of the infantry but they are that way for a reason. I resent that people look at grunts like they are dumb cannon fodder. Most of this reasoning comes from human nature recollecting mostly bad experiences with people. I assure you the infantry has good and bad just like any other profession. You got your stars and your sh*theads. Some of the wisest people I've ever met were NCO's that knew their stuff. I credit a lot of the good that I am today to them. The officers who gave a damn, we looked up to. It's HARD. Incredibly hard. Try charging up a hill with 50lbs. of gear on and a 20lb. machine gun carrying 800 rounds of ammo. In 100+ degree heat, over and over. Then try it in full chemical protective gear. Fight and try to stay alive. It takes a special kind of person to do it and stick with it. Also, as with anything, it's what you make of it.
I got out of the Army because I proved to myself that I could do it. I was honorably discharged and I went to college. I didn't punk out. I could hang. I'll forever hold my head up for that.
I see a lot of these college kids these days and sometimes it makes me sick. They have no idea. They could give a crap. I've seen guys die during training; crushed, torn apart, wrong place wrong time. It's disheartening sometimes. But maybe it's for the better, only the few should carry the weight of that knowledge and experience. I know now why veterans don't talk about their experiences. Because people will never look at you the same.
I'll never forget that day when my Drill Sergeant was taking us to chow for one of the last times. We were all tired, he said, "Hold your head up men, you're about to join one of the biggest fraternities in the world!"
We all gave a Hooah that shook the walls.
That feeling, my God I'll never forget that feeling. It's something you will never understand.

being that you were in such an experience, would you want people drafted into that if it was not their choice...you were able to survive and thrive, but could anybody just do what you did?

that's why i am against the draft...the volunteer forces can get the job done...plus this war is done by the intelligence cops wiretapping, fbi raids, etc...stuff mostly not on news

[big]

Ifeelbloated had a lot to say...

I say keep the draft for a major war, plus if WWIII ever happened,

maybe we can send our volunteer forces overseas, and keep the draftees defending our country.....

I think that would be a fair setup

[BongHits]

Originally posted by big
Ifeelbloated had a lot to say...

I say keep the draft for a major war, plus if WWIII ever happened,

maybe we can send our volunteer forces overseas, and keep the draftees defending our country.....

I think that would be a fair setup

if WWIII ever happened? IMO its just getting started....

on the draft note, im 19, definitely eligible (is 200 lbs overweight? please say yes) and i can tell u that if i were drafted, it'd be against my will. I'd more than likely shoot the people trying to herd me onto the plane to afghanistan than the "enemy"/...truth be told i'd be in canada way before they came and got me.

[big]

I would go, if I didn't have a wife & 3 kids now....infact, I guess I'd be one of the last to go now.

I would have gone to the persian gulf in '94 if they would have recruited me...just graduating, they love kids like I was, smart, ROTC training etc etc

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by Ifeelbloated
I was in the infantry from 92-94. Just a stint, but what an experience. I decided to join the infantry because first of all it was a challenge. Plus in my mind, if I picked anything else I'd be just punking out. I could go on about the "fraternal arrogance" of the infantry but they are that way for a reason. I resent that people look at grunts like they are dumb cannon fodder. Most of this reasoning comes from human nature recollecting mostly bad experiences with people. I assure you the infantry has good and bad just like any other profession. You got your stars and your sh*theads. Some of the wisest people I've ever met were NCO's that knew their stuff. I credit a lot of the good that I am today to them. The officers who gave a damn, we looked up to. It's HARD. Incredibly hard. Try charging up a hill with 50lbs. of gear on and a 20lb. machine gun carrying 800 rounds of ammo. In 100+ degree heat, over and over. Then try it in full chemical protective gear. Fight and try to stay alive. It takes a special kind of person to do it and stick with it. Also, as with anything, it's what you make of it.
I got out of the Army because I proved to myself that I could do it. I was honorably discharged and I went to college. I didn't punk out. I could hang. I'll forever hold my head up for that.
I see a lot of these college kids these days and sometimes it makes me sick. They have no idea. They could give a crap. I've seen guys die during training; crushed, torn apart, wrong place wrong time. It's disheartening sometimes. But maybe it's for the better, only the few should carry the weight of that knowledge and experience. I know now why veterans don't talk about their experiences. Because people will never look at you the same.
I'll never forget that day when my Drill Sergeant was taking us to chow for one of the last times. We were all tired, he said, "Hold your head up men, you're about to join one of the biggest fraternities in the world!"
We all gave a Hooah that shook the walls.
That feeling, my God I'll never forget that feeling. It's something you will never understand.

Helluva a post man. My hat's off to you. I can empathize even if I can't directly relate. My dad and bro were both Army so I know what it takes to wear the uniform, and the ************ that comes with it.

If we should ever run into each other drinx are on me.

Lethal

[scem0]

GOD, if I god drafted I would not be happy. I have a bad elbow, would that keep me from getting drafted?

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by scem0
GOD, if I god drafted I would not be happy. I have a bad elbow, would that keep me from getting drafted?
Nope, but being openly gay will. When you get to the recruitment center, just say something like:

"Military men are sssssooo sssssssexy in those cute uniforms!"

Really loudly and obnoxiously. And you're home free!

[ibjoshua]

Originally posted by alex_ant

Nope, but being openly gay will. When you get to the recruitment center, just say something like:

"Military men are sssssooo sssssssexy in those cute uniforms!"

Really loudly and obnoxiously. And you're home free!

ha ha ha ha

i think i'd be a conscientious objector.
in reality you can't really know until it happens. it's a bit like saying "i'll never wear a suit" when you're a teenager. :)
i think i'd rather get locked up than kill people.

i_b_joshua

[vniow]

Originally posted by alex_ant

Nope, but being openly gay will. When you get to the recruitment center, just say something like:

"Military men are sssssooo sssssssexy in those cute uniforms!"

Really loudly and obnoxiously. And you're home free!

That shouldn't be too difficult.:D

[krossfyter]

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iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiWWWWWW#iiiiiiiiWWWWWiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii i

[ibjoshua]

kross, ascii art needs to go in preformatted tags (use the hash button #) like so:

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[ibjoshua]

oh and kross, you're a weird boyo! ;)

i_b_joshua

[Choppaface]

hmmmm so whats the most legal way to avoid the draft? does being a college student count?

[Ifeelbloated]

I DO NOT want the draft reinstated. I do not want someone in the foxhole beside me whose mind isn't on the fight. The professional soldiers have instilled in themselves the "warrior ethic", something that is suffering as of late because of goddamned political correctness. I'm glad the elite units like the Rangers have not let that affect them.
With the right support, an infantry battalion can wreak total devastation. Especiallly a mechanized unit with M1 tanks. We call them rolling thunder. The firepower is incredible. Hell unleashed. Believe me, I've been in front of a whole battalion of them while hunkered in a foxhole as they engaged targets. The fireworks going over our head. As I stared downrange at the defile where the supposed enemy was suppose to be coming, I thought there was no way in hell that anything could make it through that barrage. Even if they somehow did, they had us to contend with--the groundpounders , bristling with machine guns with nightsights and bayonets fixed.
It is highly unlikely that the draft will come back because of how enlistment works now. Everyone signs up for 8 years regardless. How you do those 8 years are up to you. I did 2 years full active duty. The rest, Inactive Ready Reserve. Basically, I was a soldier in mothballs who could be recalled to duty should the country need it. Also, if you are a short-timer (almost end of service) while you are still on active duty and some conflict arises, the Army does what's called a stop-loss. Then they can even extend your term of commitment up to a year. The Army learned that lesson from Vietnam when they had to go over there with green troops instead of the more experienced troops who got out before they could be put in action.
I believe the Army wants to field an all volunteer force rather than draftees. They learned a lot from Vietnam. So many mistakes so much learned. That's why we basically rolled over the Iraqi army in the Gulf War. I think in a strange way we should thank the VietCong and NVA for being such awesome fighters. They did give our ass a good whipping. Something that was really needed to ensure that that would never happen again.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Ifeelbloated
I DO NOT want the draft reinstated. I do not want someone in the foxhole beside me whose mind isn't on the fight. The professional soldiers have instilled in themselves the "warrior ethic", something that is suffering as of late because of goddamned political correctness. I'm glad the elite units like the Rangers have not let that affect them.
With the right support, an infantry battalion can wreak total devastation. Especiallly a mechanized unit with M1 tanks. We call them rolling thunder. The firepower is incredible. Hell unleashed. Believe me, I've been in front of a whole battalion of them while hunkered in a foxhole as they engaged targets. The fireworks going over our head. As I stared downrange at the defile where the supposed enemy was suppose to be coming, I thought there was no way in hell that anything could make it through that barrage. Even if they somehow did, they had us to contend with--the groundpounders , bristling with machine guns with nightsights and bayonets fixed.
It is highly unlikely that the draft will come back because of how enlistment works now. Everyone signs up for 8 years regardless. How you do those 8 years are up to you. I did 2 years full active duty. The rest, Inactive Ready Reserve. Basically, I was a soldier in mothballs who could be recalled to duty should the country need it. Also, if you are a short-timer (almost end of service) while you are still on active duty and some conflict arises, the Army does what's called a stop-loss. Then they can even extend your term of commitment up to a year. The Army learned that lesson from Vietnam when they had to go over there with green troops instead of the more experienced troops who got out before they could be put in action.
I believe the Army wants to field an all volunteer force rather than draftees. They learned a lot from Vietnam. So many mistakes so much learned. That's why we basically rolled over the Iraqi army in the Gulf War. I think in a strange way we should thank the VietCong and NVA for being such awesome fighters. They did give our ass a good whipping. Something that was really needed to ensure that that would never happen again.

i have never served in any service, but what you say about the vietnam war is exactly what retired general colin powell said about that conflict...about why we were ready when the gulf war came

do you think the usa can be as successful trying to oust sadaam hussein on his own soil?

i am a democrat, but not anti-bush or even against his mission to oust sadaam hussein...i am just worried that it will be hard to do, but i have no doubt we have the capability to get him

i hear a lot of rhetoric pro and con about iraq these days but there is so much politicizing of the issue from washington it is hard to tell what the truth really is

i believe that bin laden, with his history of liking to be high profile, is dead and sadaam is the current priority

[Ovi]

11

[ibjoshua]

Originally posted by Ovi


I though you might find this interesting.
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,5184302%255E2,00.html

i'm not sure what you're geting at. :confused:
but i do have to say if i have to have anything to do with this war paying for it is a lesser evil than fighting it. not much lesser mind you :(

i_b_joshua

[Ovi]

11

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by i_b_joshua
oh and kross, you're a weird boyo! ;)

i_b_joshua



oh snap! thanks i didnt catch that.
heh. left to someone else to clean up my crap. thanks again man.

[Sun Baked]

Originally posted by Choppaface
hmmmm so whats the most legal way to avoid the draft? does being a college student count?

Breast implants and a mini skirt.

[krossfyter]

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[Durandal7]

Originally posted by krossfyter
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Very nice kross. Very nice indeed.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by Durandal7

Very nice kross. Very nice indeed.


thank ya!

[Ovi]

11