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Boo The Hamster
Jul 28, 2011, 03:36 AM
I've always regarded the Mac/OS vs PC/Windows thing as a bit of fun. Sure in my 3.5 years as a Mac owner, I've had my fair share of good-natured slanging matches with PC owners (Your machine's rubbish and mine's brilliant! No your machine's rubbish and mine's brilliant… repeat ad nauseum). But much in the way that I decided long ago there's no such thing as a bad piece of music if somebody likes it, then either system is great if they work for you.

So while this argument raged (rages!), all the 'Mac people' were on this side of the fence, flinging rotten fruit at the poor deluded fools over there, still using Windows, and all was (seemingly) happy.

Then along comes Lion.

Now I started on Leopard and moved to Snow Leopard, which wasn't really a sea-change. Things got tightened up a bit and that seemed to be that. I've never been through a major Mac OS upgrade before, so it might be that this has happened with every OS change since 1984. But Civil War seems to have broken out, with the Pro-Lion and Anti-Lion brigade drawing up battle lines.

I'd always found that Mac users seemed to be friendly, helpful, easy-going sorts of people (bit of a sweeping generalisation there, but it seems to hold true), so I find it really strange to see phrases like 'you stubborn / dumb downgraders' for people going back to SL, and 'you sheep that can't see the problems', for the people that are sticking with 10.7.

So maybe someone with a bit more Mac heritage can tell me: is this typical of an OS release, or is Lion more 'Love It or Hate It' than we've seen for a while?



TheGarreth
Jul 28, 2011, 03:43 AM
Great post...I've been reading these boards lately and wondering the same thing myself. For the better part of the last 11 years, a computer was just something I used to get my work done, nothing more, nothing less..it just so happened that the first person I worked for (and I still contract for) when I was 20, ran his business on Mac....and so I worked on Macs.
Over the last few years as I've went independent & built up my business, I've come to completely appreciate the Mac platform and what it has allowed me to do - as such, my love for all things tech & my nerd factor have increased tenfold....I'm always playing around with things, tweaks, new software, new gadgets, reading blogs, etc....
So I'm curious about this too...myself, I'm enjoying Lion so far and while I've found a few minor bugs, it seems normal to me that a new .0 OS release on any platform would have these issues....to this point, I have complete confidence that Apple will put a good polish on things with 10.7.1...but we shall see.

miles01110
Jul 28, 2011, 03:45 AM
So maybe someone with a bit more Mac heritage can tell me: is this typical of an OS release, or is Lion more 'Love It or Hate It' than we've seen for a while?

It happens with every release of an Apple product. The mixture of emotion and self-assigned importance makes for lots of shortsighted arguments.

Gav2k
Jul 28, 2011, 03:50 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

I think it's happened moreso with lion because it's the releas that dumps all the crap from the ppc days.

People still have this idiotic idea that vendors should support hardware/software for a decade or more!

stevenlangley1
Jul 28, 2011, 03:55 AM
It happens with every release of an Apple product. The mixture of emotion and self-assigned importance makes for lots of shortsighted arguments.

This.

Every fraking time there is any software or hardware update you get people who love it and people who despise it and they want everyone else to know about it. Thats why I try to stay away from MR for about a week after any releases...lol

Partron22
Jul 28, 2011, 09:16 AM
I've used every System back to 1.0, and Lion has the feel of an update pushed out the door 4 months early. That's exacerbating the 'love it or hate it' reponse from users. Apple will likely revive it's "rock solid" campaign with upcoming 10.7 point whatever offerings, and all will be well in Mac-land again.

zarathu
Jul 28, 2011, 10:09 AM
First of all, Lion has made some major changes. Everything is now 64 bit. Any program that is not 64 bit is going to have running problems.

Secondly, Lion has really boosted its graphics requirements. Sure you can run it with a slow graphics card, but you may not like it.

Third, every new upgrade to systems now days requires more RAM to just run the system. Lion is no exception. You can run it on 2gb ram, but you won't like it since the system will have to draw on virtual memory, and unless you are running out of an SSD, this will be a nightmare. You could run Tiger on a mac with 1 gig Ram. Both Leopards really needed 2 gb RAM. Lion really needs 3 gb ram just for the system to run properly. So you can run on 4 gb system, but only if you don't run more than one other program and only if that program is not something like Aperture or another memory hog. To be safe most people will need 6 or 8 gb. Those people who report no problems WHATSOEVER are almost uniformily running on more than 8 gb system RAM.


Fourth, only the really brave or the really foolhardy people actually download any system at the .0 level. All the way back the system 4.0, everyone with any sense waited until the .1, .2, or even .3 level before adopting. People seem to forget that Apple cannot fix every possible circumstance in every possible configuration, and the more complex these systems get the harder that is.

Fifth, IF you are an early adopter, no one who does this who is in their right mind loads it directly into their functioning hard drive. They either put it in a partition with a clean install, or in an external firewire hard drive. This way one can instantly shift back and fourth between new and old system by hitting the option key on start-up.

I'm sorry that Apple cannot tell people these things, but it is what it is.

fisherking
Jul 28, 2011, 10:15 AM
what makes me laugh is...we wait anxiously for the new OS, wondering what will be new, different.

then, when it comes, we bemoan all the things that are new and different.

to be fair, bugs are bugs (and Lion has plenty); those are certainly worth discussing, as are ways to adapt to change.

but funny to watch people freak at the new things, and threaten to go back to SL (or OS 9, or whatever LOL).

change is good, the world moves forward. we move with it, or fall behind...

lamerica80
Jul 28, 2011, 10:17 AM
People get very personal about their macs. Its quite interesting from a branding perspective. Someone said: "A mac is not a computer, its a friend".

So naturally you get upset when someone changes your friend to the worse. :)

The amount of rage over Lion is interesting though, looking forward to hearing thoughts from people with vast mac experience!

fisherking
Jul 28, 2011, 10:19 AM
People get very personal about their macs. Its quite interesting from a branding perspective. Someone said: "A mac is not a computer, its a friend".

So naturally you get upset when someone changes your friend to the worse. :)

The amount of rage over Lion is interesting though, looking forward to hearing thoughts from people with vast mac experience!

i just don't understand why people install the new OS, then complain that it's not the same...

perhaps worth exploring forums like this one for a few weeks before upgrading?

me, i NEVER regret the changes (only the bugs...)

InuNacho
Jul 28, 2011, 10:20 AM
First of all, Lion has made some major changes. Everything is now 64 bit. Any program that is not 64 bit is going to have running problems.

Are you serious, if so there is no way in hell I'm going to Lion then. I would assume the same goes for universal applications right?

Merkyworks
Jul 28, 2011, 01:16 PM
First of all, Lion has made some major changes. Everything is now 64 bit. Any program that is not 64 bit is going to have running problems.

true everything is 64bit in Lion but that is NOT a new feature, if memory serves me correctly SL was able to run in 64bit but by default the OS booted in 32bit. however with the introduction of quad core cpu's into macbook pros SL would boot by default in 64bit mode, I know this because i have a macbook pro 8,2 and SL was 64bit and yet i could run chrome just fine and chrome is/was a 32bit app. Leopard might of had this feature but im not sure.


Are you serious, if so there is no way in hell I'm going to Lion then. I would assume the same goes for universal applications right?

Lion being 64bit ONLY is the reason Apple dropped support for older macbook/macbook pro that had whatever version of an intel cpu, thats because the intel cpu in those mac's do not support 64bit programs or OS. SL and Lion can run 32bit app just fine, its just that those apps will not run as fast as ones that are 64bit, not because of the OS being 64bit but simply because the app is 32bit and therefore can't move/address data as quickly.

fisherking
Jul 28, 2011, 01:26 PM
First of all, Lion has made some major changes. Everything is now 64 bit. Any program that is not 64 bit is going to have running problems.

Secondly, Lion has really boosted its graphics requirements. Sure you can run it with a slow graphics card, but you may not like it.

Third, every new upgrade to systems now days requires more RAM to just run the system. Lion is no exception. You can run it on 2gb ram, but you won't like it since the system will have to draw on virtual memory, and unless you are running out of an SSD, this will be a nightmare. You could run Tiger on a mac with 1 gig Ram. Both Leopards really needed 2 gb RAM. Lion really needs 3 gb ram just for the system to run properly. So you can run on 4 gb system, but only if you don't run more than one other program and only if that program is not something like Aperture or another memory hog. To be safe most people will need 6 or 8 gb. Those people who report no problems WHATSOEVER are almost uniformily running on more than 8 gb system RAM.


Fourth, only the really brave or the really foolhardy people actually download any system at the .0 level. All the way back the system 4.0, everyone with any sense waited until the .1, .2, or even .3 level before adopting. People seem to forget that Apple cannot fix every possible circumstance in every possible configuration, and the more complex these systems get the harder that is.

Fifth, IF you are an early adopter, no one who does this who is in their right mind loads it directly into their functioning hard drive. They either put it in a partition with a clean install, or in an external firewire hard drive. This way one can instantly shift back and fourth between new and old system by hitting the option key on start-up.

I'm sorry that Apple cannot tell people these things, but it is what it is.

all my 32bit apps run no worse (or no better, for that matter), than they did on SL.
and my ram is 4gb, and no issues there.
how many people (say, macbook pro users) loaded lion on an external drive, versus updating their books?

seriously, where are the FACTS behind your remarks? everything you wrote sounds like your OPINIONS (which, of course, you're entitled to...)

TPadden
Jul 28, 2011, 01:27 PM
i just don't understand why people install the new OS, then complain that it's not the same... i NEVER regret the changes (only the bugs...)

Complaints occur when there is little to no improvement seen in the actual use of the new OS; and plenty of bugs that need squishing appear. On the dark side there were PLENTY of complaints from XP to Vista (not to mention Mellinium); the move to Windows 7 was a welcome relief for almost everyone even though it also did try force weaning off 32 bit ........ but that's just an opinion :).

My bet though is the complaints will continue through 10.7.x until 10.8 ..... :o

fortheloveofmac
Jul 28, 2011, 01:32 PM
I just switched to Mac as a whole (see signature) and I got the vibe from the strong pros and antis that it is because Mac users know that their product is the Porsche of computers (know, think, whatever haha) and they just want the best they can get. I'm so for it because it's working so well for me so far. I can understand why some are so against it because they probably came into a nearly perfect system before. Also, I noticed that once you have a Mac, you never want anything else, and the diehards might be a creature of habit after a while. It's definitely entertaining, but now that I have one, I don't even want to touch a [gasp] DELL or something. Ew. My fingers might melt. Hahaha seriously though, I think it all comes from the good hearted non-virus getting Macheads of the world!

fisherking
Jul 28, 2011, 01:35 PM
it's inevitable (and funny), but...by the time 10.8 happens, we'll all have adapted to 10.7...and we'll be back, complaining about the changes in the new OS, and threatening to revert to Lion...

sort-of an endless cycle (but hey, it's fun too)... :cool:

zarathu
Jul 28, 2011, 04:37 PM
all my 32bit apps run no worse (or no better, for that matter), than they did on SL.
and my ram is 4gb, and no issues there.
how many people (say, macbook pro users) loaded lion on an external drive, versus updating their books?

seriously, where are the FACTS behind your remarks? everything you wrote sounds like your OPINIONS (which, of course, you're entitled to...)

Some things I say are true and some things I say are partially true...just like everyone else.

TPadden
Jul 28, 2011, 04:50 PM
Some things I say are true and some things I say are partially true...just like everyone else.

You are mistaken. I know it's semantics but many people now equate being correct with being truthful and conversely if you aren't correct you must be lying :mad:.

There's no such thing outside of politics as "partially true". For everyone else being truthful doesn't necessarily mean correct but it is still true :o.

Synergie
Jul 28, 2011, 04:56 PM
So you can run on 4 gb system, but only if you don't run more than one other program and only if that program is not something like Aperture or another memory hog. To be safe most people will need 6 or 8 gb.

This is entirely untrue!!! I routinely run Adobe Photoshop CS5 in one space (working with some fairly LARGE sized images), with iTunes in another and mail, audium etc running in the background with NO issues whatsoever. I had even had Dreamweaver open at the same time as all the above with no issues! I have a late 2009 MBP with 4 GB RAM btw! Lion works just fine with 4 GB RAM ! I have had NO bugs etc at all with Lion (video freezing, sleep issues, WiFi dumping etc.) My only hiccup was that it didn't want to play nice with my long running SL Time Machine backup so I had to start a new one...

My only Lion complaints deal with Apple taking away more and more customizability. :) But I'm finding ways around those!

zarathu
Jul 28, 2011, 05:06 PM
This is entirely untrue!!! I routinely run Adobe Photoshop CS5 in one space (working with some fairly LARGE sized images), with iTunes in another and mail, audium etc running in the background with NO issues whatsoever. I had even had Dreamweaver open at the same time as all the above with no issues! I have a late 2009 MBP with 4 GB RAM btw! Lion works just fine with 4 GB RAM ! I have had NO bugs etc at all with Lion (video freezing, sleep issues, WiFi dumping etc.) My only hiccup was that it didn't want to play nice with my long running SL Time Machine backup so I had to start a new one...

My only Lion complaints deal with Apple taking away more and more customizability. :) But I'm finding ways around those!

What one person considers "just fine" another person considers horribly slow. There are no absolutes when it comes to people's perceptions. I consider Aperture slow to process even in Snow Leopard running my mid 2011 iMac with 4 gb ram. I hope to boost it to 12 gb next week.

It depends on how much RAM each of these programs requires to be used, how graphic the photos are and what you are asking CS5 to axtually do to the photos, what else is running, how hot your room is, and many other things besides personal perception. All you are saying is that it runs fine for your perceptionsn in your place, with your programs running your items, not that because it runs fine for your perceptions so then everybody must agree with you. That, btw, is called Asperger Perception. Yesterday I was encoding a movie in SL. Everyone of the four cores was running at 85% level. But not all the RAM memory was being used, but even so everything else closed down to a crawl. Heaven only know wht might have happened in Lion.

fisherking
Jul 28, 2011, 05:25 PM
i run Logic, Safari (with about 12 open tabs), Mail, iCal, iTunes... and sometimes photoshop, or dreamweaver, or indesign...etc with 4gigs of ram, and all is well...

ZipZap
Jul 28, 2011, 05:44 PM
Funny, I thought Apple stuff was suppose to work. I mean they do entice in the typical non-computer type...right? Its their bread and butter...right?

Lion seems no different than the Vista release for Windows, or the Win 7 release. You have to be computer saavy to survive the upgrade process.

Not very impressed with the Mac OS at all.

Synergie
Jul 28, 2011, 05:47 PM
I'm not saying it wouldn't run better with MORE RAM, just that it's certainly NOT unusable with 4 GB RAM! You made it sound like Lion comes to a grinding halt if you run more than one app at a time with 4 GB or less of RAM! That's just not true....

What one person considers "just fine" another person considers horribly slow. There are no absolutes when it comes to people's perceptions. I consider Aperture slow to process even in Snow Leopard running my mid 2011 iMac with 4 gb ram. I hope to boost it to 12 gb next week.

It depends on how much RAM each of these programs requires to be used, how graphic the photos are and what you are asking CS5 to axtually do to the photos, what else is running, how hot your room is, and many other things besides personal perception. All you are saying is that it runs fine for your perceptionsn in your place, with your programs running your items, not that because it runs fine for your perceptions so then everybody must agree with you. That, btw, is called Asperger Perception. Yesterday I was encoding a movie in SL. Everyone of the four cores was running at 85% level. But not all the RAM memory was being used, but even so everything else closed down to a crawl. Heaven only know wht might have happened in Lion.

Amberfool
Jul 28, 2011, 05:57 PM
Third, every new upgrade to systems now days requires more RAM to just run the system. Lion is no exception. You can run it on 2gb ram, but you won't like it since the system will have to draw on virtual memory, and unless you are running out of an SSD, this will be a nightmare. You could run Tiger on a mac with 1 gig Ram. Both Leopards really needed 2 gb RAM. Lion really needs 3 gb ram just for the system to run properly. So you can run on 4 gb system, but only if you don't run more than one other program and only if that program is not something like Aperture or another memory hog. To be safe most people will need 6 or 8 gb. Those people who report no problems WHATSOEVER are almost uniformily running on more than 8 gb system RAM.
Well I've got to call it here, your absolutely wrong about the whole RAM thing. I've only got 4GB RAM, and I'm running Mail, Safari, Word 08, Ableton Live 8.1, Photoshop CS5, Text Edit and uTorrent all completely running nice and fast with no glitches for the past 4 days.

Fourth, only the really brave or the really foolhardy people actually download any system at the .0 level. All the way back the system 4.0, everyone with any sense waited until the .1, .2, or even .3 level before adopting. People seem to forget that Apple cannot fix every possible circumstance in every possible configuration, and the more complex these systems get the harder that is.
Please stop being so condescending. As this forum, and the rest of the web shows, a very large percent of Apple users (I would even hazard a guess at it being higher then 50%) have downloaded Lion so far, the rest are not far behind. Of the people left, there is probably a fair percentage who have absolutely no interest in getting Lion, because it does not appeal to them, and the rest of the Apple population are not any smarter, or experienced then the rest of us, just unnecessarily cautious.

Fifth, IF you are an early adopter, no one who does this who is in their right mind loads it directly into their functioning hard drive. They either put it in a partition with a clean install, or in an external firewire hard drive. This way one can instantly shift back and fourth between new and old system by hitting the option key on start-up.
Once again complete rubbish. People do that for the dev's because they tend to have bugs, and they don't want their actual computer affected, once the OS actually comes out, there really is no reason to keep the old OS there, and without all your files, the new OS is pretty useless. Sure there are bugs, but nothing that massive or problematic so far. Or at least I haven't heard of it. ;)

Sapphire08
Jul 28, 2011, 06:03 PM
I'm not saying it wouldn't run better with MORE RAM, just that it's certainly NOT unusable with 4 GB RAM! You made it sound like Lion comes to a grinding halt if you run more than one app at a time with 4 GB or less of RAM! That's just not true....
My lion is running fine on 3GB :eek:

iThinkergoiMac
Jul 28, 2011, 06:06 PM
First of all, Lion has made some major changes. Everything is now 64 bit. Any program that is not 64 bit is going to have running problems.

I'm running plenty of 32-bit applications with no issues. 32-bit applications run perfectly fine on Lion. If it doesn't, the issue is elsewhere, not with the application's bit-ness.

Secondly, Lion has really boosted its graphics requirements. Sure you can run it with a slow graphics card, but you may not like it.

Again, running Lion with a GMA X3100. Terrible graphics card. Some animations are a little slow, but nothing that's a big deal.

Those people who report no problems WHATSOEVER are almost uniformily running on more than 8 gb system RAM.

6 GB here. I know it's more than average, but from my memory usage stats 4 GB would also be fine as I rarely use more than 4 GB RAM.

I heartily agree with everything else you've said.

gr8tfly
Jul 28, 2011, 06:16 PM
First of all, Lion has made some major changes. Everything is now 64 bit. Any program that is not 64 bit is going to have running problems.



Absolutely not true. The only requirement for 64-bit compatibility with the OS are kernel extensions, or kexts. Kexts must match the mode the kernel runs in. In SL, if you booted to the 64-bit kernel, you would have the same compatibility requirement as Lion. The same applied to 32-bit kernels (the default mode on most machines prior to Lion).

Applications, on the other hand, can run in either 32-bit or 64-bit mode, regardless of the mode the kernel runs in.

zarathu
Jul 28, 2011, 07:56 PM
Once again complete rubbish. People do that for the dev's because they tend to have bugs, and they don't want their actual computer affected, once the OS actually comes out, there really is no reason to keep the old OS there, and without all your files, the new OS is pretty useless. Sure there are bugs, but nothing that massive or problematic so far. Or at least I haven't heard of it. ;)

You work for Apple, right?

The best man at my wedding(almost 40 years ago) is an apple consultant, and he agrees that everything is honkey dokey. He showed me how his Aperture 3 program runs fine, while we waited for the bouncing ball repeatedly between the change of photos. ROTFLMAO!!! I didn't ask him to actually run any processes.

None of the stuff you suggested take much processing power or RAM according to my Activity Monitor. Not surprised! Like to see the same event when you have something running that actually requires RAM or Processing power. But then.... it also sounds like you haven't read much of the writings on the Apple Support columns. I suggest you go over there are take a gander.

Amberfool
Jul 28, 2011, 08:22 PM
You work for Apple, right?

The best man at my wedding(almost 40 years ago) is an apple consultant, and he agrees that everything is honkey dokey. He showed me how his Aperture 3 program runs fine, while we waited for the bouncing ball repeatedly between the change of photos. ROTFLMAO!!! I didn't ask him to actually run any processes.

None of the stuff you suggested take much processing power or RAM according to my Activity Monitor. Not surprised! Like to see the same event when you have something running that actually requires RAM or Processing power. But then.... it also sounds like you haven't read much of the writings on the Apple Support columns. I suggest you go over there are take a gander.

No actually I don't. What programs do most people use actually require huge amount of RAM anyway? I mean beside Aperture, which seems to be your default.

I actually have been to the Apple Support section, but I have yet to see a widespread problem. Half of it is just people talking about lion, a quarter are just asking questions, with no actual problem, and only a quarter or so of what I can see from the first few pages are actual problems, and none of them seem to affect more then a few people at most. That is usual for a new Mac OS, and I'm sure many of them will be fixed in the next update coming in a few weeks.

Damers
Jul 28, 2011, 08:56 PM
This thread has been off topic since post #7. The OP must be face palming, I am.

Boo The Hamster
Aug 2, 2011, 10:20 AM
A thread on an internet forum getting derailed! Who'da thunk it? :)

The abuse still seems to be going strong though, particularly from those who are in the Pro-Lion camp. The feeling appears to be that if you choose to downgrade to Snow Leopard, then you're 'a bit stupid' or 'don't get it'.

When I was young I used to drink fruit juice or a well-known brand of Cola (no, not that one, the other one).
When my friends and I got to an age where we could actually get into pubs without being laughed at, beer appeared in our lives.
Most of the others loved it - me I thought it was awful. Tasted like dishwater, cost more than my fruit juice, and I couldn't get in a car and drive afterwards.

'Come on, keep trying it,' they said. 'You'll get used to the taste eventually.'

25 years later, and I'm still teetotal. Got nothing against people who drink (sensibly), and none of my friends take the mickey out of me for not drinking.

Pity the same doesn't seem to apply to operating systems.

Oh well.