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rangen
Jul 28, 2011, 04:38 AM
I thought this information may be of use to some of you.

I have a mid 2010 2.53 i5 MacBook Pro 15".

I did the SL upgrade to Lion, and suffered from several of the problems described on this forum. Alas, I made a bootable Lion USB flash drive and did a clean install after formatting my boot drive with Disk Utility. First of all, the install took 1/3 of the time the upgrade took! Now that it's installed, i've put everything back on manually (apps, files, settings etc), no assisted migration. It's a completely fresh start, and now the system is visibly quicker, snappier, more responsive, and improved boot time. Even the diminished battery life seems to have been partially recovered, I reiterate, partially.

Yes, things like Safari memory leaks remain, and minor bugs. I upgraded the MBP from 4GB to 8GB of RAM this AM just for kicks and future proofing, though it really wasn't necessary and I did all of my testing with the original 4GB. Though this was inspired by the fact that Lion does eat a marginally increased amount of RAM, regardless of what anyone tells you, it does.

In conclusion: I'd really recommend doing the clean install of Lion.

(strange side note: I'm only left with a few built in desktop backgrounds after the clean install. All of the SL ones are gone)



ryanrich
Jul 28, 2011, 04:47 AM
Glad you got it sorted.

I have the same model MBP but the i7. On my year old bloated SL install the upgrade took about 25 mins and after all the reindexing and a reboot everything is exactly how it was before, battery life, temps, snappiness. I wonder why some have issues upgrading and others don't...

Did you clear all your old cache and temp files before doing the upgrade?

rangen
Jul 28, 2011, 04:52 AM
Thank you. I did indeed, meticulously.

It certainly is strange.

phobox
Jul 28, 2011, 05:09 AM
I too did a clean install of Lion by creating a USB stick from the image downloaded from the app store and booting with it. Wiped my second drive (Im on a MP) and installed onto that, keeping Snow on the first drive. Install took no time at all and after that I manually copied over my apps, preferences and a few plugins etc from my Snow drive. Everything works great, the system is noticably snappier than Snow ever was and Ive also noticed that Lion handles memory better than Snow. I personally would always recommend a clean install of any OS, I didnt even bother trying to upgrade over Snow.

rangen
Jul 28, 2011, 05:33 AM
It certainly seems to be the best way at this early stage. Perhaps the process will differ with 10.7.1.

I think the jury is still out on memory usage, for me, I'd say it manages it better yes, but it manages more.

braintoniq
Jul 28, 2011, 10:25 AM
Just adding to rangen's experience: We did clean installs on all our SL Macs the day Lion came out. In some cases, we actually went out and purchased new HDs, just because we have a policy to replace them every 18 months (it's the cheapest insurance we could think of, besides cloud backup with BackBlaze). On existing drives, we simply zeroed them, and then did a fresh install of Lion. Because we use MobileMe, we first synced with MM, which brought in our Mail Address Book, and ICal. Then added the GMail accounts, then reinstalled all of the applications we needed and used.

Also, before we did these backups, we took screen shots of as many settings as we could think of, just to make reinstallation easier. This included screen shots of the Application folder (I'm always amazed at what apps I forget to re-back up), System Pref settings, and preference settings in the more complex apps (like DreamWeaver and Spell Catcher).

We've done this every since Leopard, and although it always seems beforehand that it's going to take a long time, in fact it goes quite fast. And in the end, we generally end up with no problems and the knowledge that we've basically got new Macs. I am seeing the Safari memory leak as others have noted, but I suspect that'll be fixed by Apple in the next month.

spincr
Jul 28, 2011, 11:16 AM
Is there an easy to understand guide for this matter?

I'm not particularly good with these things, but i would like to improve my macbook pro.

Quick question, how big does the usb need to be to make it work as a start up usb?

braintoniq
Jul 28, 2011, 11:45 AM
Is there an easy to understand guide for this matter?

I'm not particularly good with these things, but i would like to improve my macbook pro.

What I've been doing for the past six years with each new OS:

1. Back up each Mac, and then wipe the drive. In some cases, it's best to buy a new drive if it's over 18 months old. The theory is based on knowing that all drives crash, might as well be proactive and simply buy news ones every 18-24 months to avoid hard drive crash. They're just too cheap now to even worry about, and the old drives can act as archived backups. We did this for about half our Macs, a variety of towers, MacBook Pros, MacBooks, and one MacBook Air (in one case, a new SSD in the Intel Mac Pro tower).

2. Take screen shots to make the reinstallation easier:
- Application folder (so you remember what apps to reinstall)
- Preference settings on any of the more complex applications (in our case, this was ones like Dreamweaver, Spell Catcher, etc)
- we use MobileMe, so Address Book, iCal, Safari bookmarks etc will all repopulate with the new OS. But if you don't use MM, be sure to backup/export all of these.
- System Prefences. I tend to install a lot of odd Sys Prefs, like TapDex, Perian, SteerMouse.

3. Install Lion.

4. Set up System Prefs, install all the apps, adjust settings

In my experience, spincr, it's the only way to go. I personally think it's incorrect to say "it's fine to install a new OS over an existing one." I haven't seen evidence of that. True, if that old OS's machine was hardly used, didn't have a lot of old prefs, caches, etc, it's probably fine. And if that old OS isn't being used for ones livelihood. But otherwise, it's too big of a gamble to do so. My Mac guy's advice: take the time to create a new Mac. Go out and purchase a new HD, or at worst, zero the drive and start fresh.

chiefroastbeef
Jul 28, 2011, 11:53 AM
When some of you talk about moving your apps over after a fresh install of Lion, do you mean reinstalling all the apps, or some how drag and drop from clone of the old drive? I simply have way too many apps to ever make me want to do a fresh install and reinstalling of apps. Maybe when I get the courage...

I have a MBP and a MP, so as you can see, fresh install of Lion, and reinstalling of all apps will be terrible. Especially with my most used apps like Adobe Suite, Final Cut Studio, Aperture, etc.

spincr
Jul 28, 2011, 11:56 AM
Well my mac-book Pro is from 2010, and to be honest, it was thus expensive that buying a new hard drive is out of the question. And besides i have 3 ext. drives that i use to back up my mac and each-other.

My question is though, whether there is a guide of some sorts, one that explicitly tells me what were how and when. What you told me is a step in the right direction, however there are no other mac users close by, so in case something goes wrong, i won't have the internet to correspond back.

rangen
Jul 28, 2011, 03:13 PM
Well my mac-book Pro is from 2010, and to be honest, it was thus expensive that buying a new hard drive is out of the question. And besides i have 3 ext. drives that i use to back up my mac and each-other.

My question is though, whether there is a guide of some sorts, one that explicitly tells me what were how and when. What you told me is a step in the right direction, however there are no other mac users close by, so in case something goes wrong, i won't have the internet to correspond back.

search for a guide on creating a Bootable Lion USB key

follow the instructions to create it

restart mac holding option key

format drive with disk utility

clean install lion

job done

rangen
Jul 28, 2011, 03:14 PM
When some of you talk about moving your apps over after a fresh install of Lion, do you mean reinstalling all the apps, or some how drag and drop from clone of the old drive? I simply have way too many apps to ever make me want to do a fresh install and reinstalling of apps. Maybe when I get the courage...

I have a MBP and a MP, so as you can see, fresh install of Lion, and reinstalling of all apps will be terrible. Especially with my most used apps like Adobe Suite, Final Cut Studio, Aperture, etc.

personally i reinstall each app from scratch, the Mac App Store being helpful for this purpose

braintoniq
Jul 29, 2011, 08:04 AM
personally i reinstall each app from scratch, the Mac App Store being helpful for this purpose

There is no other way, ChiefRoastBeef. But given the results, meaning you get a brand new Mac that becomes fast and snappy again, I guarantee that you won't regret the decision. Take screen shots of your Apps folder, of the preference windows of your more complex applications, of System Preference settings, so that you know what to reinstall and how to set them up, but man, you will not regret this decision. I have friends who have never done this since Tiger, and when I work on their Macs, I always think, "they have no idea how much faster their machine could be working."

For what it's worth, I do this every year-18 months. While the six hours it take always feels like it'll be a hassle, once I'm into it, I really enjoy the process. If you're like me, you install a LOT of junk over time that you just don't need any more. It's great to have a new machine once it's all done.

anotherarunan
Jul 29, 2011, 08:27 AM
For what it's worth, I do this every year-18 months. While the six hours it take always feels like it'll be a hassle, once I'm into it, I really enjoy the process. If you're like me, you install a LOT of junk over time that you just don't need any more. It's great to have a new machine once it's all done.

Two questions as I am thinking of doing the same

1. My 4 yr old MB has never had its HD replaced - I have just ordered a new one, and plan to upgrade to Lion at the same time - will I notice a difference?

2. You say you manually install the apps yourself, would it not be easier to backup to timemachine, and use migration assistant to move everything back over again?

rangen
Jul 29, 2011, 11:11 AM
Two questions as I am thinking of doing the same

1. My 4 yr old MB has never had its HD replaced - I have just ordered a new one, and plan to upgrade to Lion at the same time - will I notice a difference?

2. You say you manually install the apps yourself, would it not be easier to backup to timemachine, and use migration assistant to move everything back over again?

It depends on what hard drive you have ordered, though you will benefit from the clean install.

You could use migration assistant, but manually installing the apps again guarantees a fresh start.

jbouklas
Jul 29, 2011, 11:36 AM
Whenever a new version of OS X comes out, I always do a fresh install. This time, I tried the upgrade, and I didn't like the result. The system felt a little sluggish, and there were some weird quirks (like elastic scrolling randomly turning off throughout the day).

Just did a fresh install, much happier with the result. My system feels snappy, and it's an opportunity for me to clean out all the programs and crap that I've accumulated but haven't used in a while.

Mikey86uk
Jul 29, 2011, 11:40 AM
by doing this, will i lose iLife 11 which i had pre installed with SL?

Taz Mangus
Jul 29, 2011, 12:11 PM
Glad you got it sorted.

I have the same model MBP but the i7. On my year old bloated SL install the upgrade took about 25 mins and after all the reindexing and a reboot everything is exactly how it was before, battery life, temps, snappiness. I wonder why some have issues upgrading and others don't...

Did you clear all your old cache and temp files before doing the upgrade?

Some of the issues that people are having may be because there is a problem with their hard drive root sector being corrupted. I have seen a number of strange behaviors happen because of this. Something like DiskWarrior resolved it. Personally, I like doing clean installs for a new OS install.

cibby
Jul 29, 2011, 04:19 PM
Has anyone compared doing using migration assistant just for your apps vs reinstalling them one by one? It sounds like most folks here are proponents of the latter. Six hours seems lights, I would imagine it taking longer than that to get everything up and running.

Taz Mangus
Jul 29, 2011, 06:06 PM
by doing this, will i lose iLife 11 which i had pre installed with SL?

Lion will not re-install your iLife applications, you will have to do it manually.

braintoniq
Jul 30, 2011, 04:01 AM
Has anyone compared doing using migration assistant just for your apps vs reinstalling them one by one? It sounds like most folks here are proponents of the latter. Six hours seems lights, I would imagine it taking longer than that to get everything up and running.

My understanding, cibby, is that the migration assistant also ports over all preference, etc. files. So if any of those are damaged, we're just bringing the problems over with us. It also brings over all of the 10s or 100s of other apps that we once installed but no longer use.

Mikey86uk
Jul 30, 2011, 04:32 AM
Lion will not re-install your iLife applications, you will have to do it manually.

But does the SL apps disc work with Lion?

rangen
Jul 30, 2011, 06:57 AM
But does the SL apps disc work with Lion?

The iLife disc that shipped with your SL powered Mac will install on Lion

woohoo
Jul 30, 2011, 12:37 PM
Reading this post really is making me think about doing a clean install instead of a normal installation, and I have two quick questions?

1. will I be able to reinstall iwork? I have the application disk, just want to make sure it will work correctly if I reinstall it onto lion.

2. I have a bootcamp partition right now, is it possible to keep my bootcamp partition while doing a clean install?? Or will I have to completely erase my whole hard drive and redo my bootcamp partition?


Any help is appreciated thanks!!!!

rangen
Jul 31, 2011, 03:57 AM
Reading this post really is making me think about doing a clean install instead of a normal installation, and I have two quick questions?

1. will I be able to reinstall iwork? I have the application disk, just want to make sure it will work correctly if I reinstall it onto lion.

2. I have a bootcamp partition right now, is it possible to keep my bootcamp partition while doing a clean install?? Or will I have to completely erase my whole hard drive and redo my bootcamp partition?


Any help is appreciated thanks!!!!

I don't deal with bootcamp, but I can tell you that you'll have no problem with iWork.

Mikey86uk
Jul 31, 2011, 04:13 AM
i bit the bullet and done a clean install of Lion, as i was fed up of crashes and the sluggish feel of Lion.

And now its much smoother and no crashes!

and iLife and iWork09 install fine, as soon as there installed just click on update software and they shall be updated!

rangen
Jul 31, 2011, 01:39 PM
glad to hear it, more and more people are telling me they've done a clean install and are much happier with the results

GuerillaTech
Jul 31, 2011, 01:52 PM
Reading this post really is making me think about doing a clean install instead of a normal installation, and I have two quick questions?

1. will I be able to reinstall iwork? I have the application disk, just want to make sure it will work correctly if I reinstall it onto lion.

2. I have a bootcamp partition right now, is it possible to keep my bootcamp partition while doing a clean install?? Or will I have to completely erase my whole hard drive and redo my bootcamp partition?


Any help is appreciated thanks!!!!
clean installing lion won't even affect bootcamp.

tom5304
Jul 31, 2011, 02:09 PM
I also was having Lion problems with both Wifi and general sluggishness. Last night I did the clean install of Lion, and so far, after 12 hours, Lion appears to be working beautifully.

I encoded a DVD using Handbrake, and the computer didn't even hiccup. Under my first install of Lion on top of Snow Leopard, a Handbrake encode reduced my iMac to a laggy spinning beachball of an experience. Wifi is also working fine under the clean install... so far.

spyderx
Jul 31, 2011, 04:21 PM
I did the SL upgrade to Lion, and suffered from several of the problems described on this forum.

In conclusion: I'd really recommend doing the clean install of Lion.



I did same and glad I did. 24" Core 2 Extreme from 2007 (2.8Ghz C2D, 6GB Ram, 128 GB SSD, 500GB 2.5" drive in CD bay... ) I hadn't done a full reinstall since this machine was new. Glad I did. It was time. Bit the bullet and spent a couple hours over a few days reinstalling everything.

Machine works great.

My 2006 2.33Ghz C2D upgraded Mac Mini I did an upgrade install since I had literally just installed SL on it a few weeks prior from scratch and it's a vanilla machine used just for my hifi setup and video.

It's working fine too.

murdercitydevil
Jul 31, 2011, 05:47 PM
For what it's worth, I do this every year-18 months. While the six hours it take always feels like it'll be a hassle, once I'm into it, I really enjoy the process. If you're like me, you install a LOT of junk over time that you just don't need any more. It's great to have a new machine once it's all done.

I know exactly what you're talking about. I always find a very certain type of enjoyment and satisfaction from installing an OS totally fresh, even if it means re-downloading all my apps, re-setting all my preferences, etc. Each time I do it, I end up optimizing the process and trimming even more off my previous system's backup to only what I really need. There's nothing better than knowing your system is running at 100% efficiency.

iBunny
Jul 31, 2011, 06:25 PM
I just wanted to add my 2 cents.

I also did a clean install and it is a night and day difference compared to the upgrade.

I dont know why, but it just seems faster.

rangen
Aug 1, 2011, 06:25 AM
I know exactly what you're talking about. I always find a very certain type of enjoyment and satisfaction from installing an OS totally fresh, even if it means re-downloading all my apps, re-setting all my preferences, etc. Each time I do it, I end up optimizing the process and trimming even more off my previous system's backup to only what I really need. There's nothing better than knowing your system is running at 100% efficiency.

I completely agree, the process is refined each time. I think the advent of The Mac App Store has made the process of reinstalling applications significantly more efficient as well.

jsamuelson
Aug 1, 2011, 07:55 AM
I clean installed Lion from a USB stick, and I haven't had any problems that have been described as "common" here on the forums and elsewhere. I moved all my data by hand afterwards, didn't take long.

The only pain was waiting for a totally fresh Time Machine backup to finish (20 hours).

Last time I did a clean install was when Leopard came out, so for me, a cruft-free machine was totally worth the slight extra effort.

feeth
Aug 1, 2011, 09:44 AM
clean installing lion won't even affect bootcamp.

I hope that is the case! :)

rangen
Aug 1, 2011, 02:00 PM
I hope that is the case! :)

from what i've heard it doesn't effect it

Mikey86uk
Aug 1, 2011, 02:16 PM
glad to hear it, more and more people are telling me they've done a clean install and are much happier with the results

Spoke to soon.

After 2 days of it being fine, we are now back to crashes, sluggish feel and wifi problems.

Back to SL for me i guess!

tom5304
Aug 1, 2011, 02:38 PM
Spoke to soon.

After 2 days of it being fine, we are now back to crashes, sluggish feel and wifi problems.

Back to SL for me i guess!

Same here. Although the Lion clean install fixed the lags and sluggishness I experienced with Lion, the Wifi problems came back. In fact, even my Ethernet connection under Lion became wonky.

I went back to Snow Leopard again. For some reason, in Snow Leopard my Airport isn't constantly "Looking For Networks." Under Lion, Wifi was "Looking For Networks" every 20 seconds or so.

I'm going to try to get my $29 back. That's a lot of money for a product that doesn't work on my particular machine.

rangen
Aug 2, 2011, 09:05 AM
Same here. Although the Lion clean install fixed the lags and sluggishness I experienced with Lion, the Wifi problems came back. In fact, even my Ethernet connection under Lion became wonky.

I went back to Snow Leopard again. For some reason, in Snow Leopard my Airport isn't constantly "Looking For Networks." Under Lion, Wifi was "Looking For Networks" every 20 seconds or so.

I'm going to try to get my $29 back. That's a lot of money for a product that doesn't work on my particular machine.

That's very strange, I haven't heard about any major problems with clean installs of Lion until now

mrtravel123
Aug 2, 2011, 09:35 AM
Who here is doing a "zero" out as they're doing a clean install of Lion via USB? Or, are you just installing it without any "cleansing" of the old drive?

I'm never sure if it's worth it to "zero" out an old drive or not. Yeah, there is a small security increase. But, does it help in any other way?

podsorcerer09
Aug 2, 2011, 09:49 AM
After having a few crashes over the weekend I'm also considering doing the fresh install. I'm not sure if it would be worth it because I installed Lion as an upgrade to a brand new MBP. Like bought it at the store, upgraded SL to 10.6.8 after setting up my user accounts and that's all, downloaded Lion at the Apple store and then took it home to do the install, then I installed all my applications by hand and copied my documents and music by hand because I'm not a huge fan of migration assistant. This makes me think that it's not really worth it to do the clean install. I'm going to try booting to recovery and checking the disk and maybe running onyx even though it's in beta right now.

jkcmac
Aug 2, 2011, 10:03 AM
I also did a clean installed. Before installing, I wipe out the partition and created new one. The system were running without any problem that a lot of people complain about.

Nufoundglorykid
Aug 2, 2011, 10:12 AM
all right... real quick clarification please... for a clean install:

As far as reinstalling apps and what-not I realize I can use the Mac App Store. For moving music and pictures back over though should I go into the Time Machine and choose the folders to move? I see that you all say not to do a Time Machine backup but I'm curious if that's the same as just choosing specific folders to bring back? And lastly, as I'm not on a Mac at work, are iLife and iWork in the App Store? I don't have my discs anymore. Thank you for any help!

fel10
Aug 2, 2011, 01:57 PM
kind of a noobish question, but how r u guys doing the clean install???

rangen
Aug 3, 2011, 04:48 AM
kind of a noobish question, but how r u guys doing the clean install???

with a bootable USB of Lion made after downloading the installer

RedRaven571
Aug 3, 2011, 08:48 AM
I did a clean install of Lion (i.e. - erased the OS X partition with disk utility and installed Lion from a USB drive then reinstalled apps individually and copied files from a TM backup) after I was unhappy with the prolonged boot up and shut down times I was getting from an upgrade install. I am much happier with my boot up and shut downs now; they seem to be pretty much what I was getting from SL.

An observation: several of the apps I had on my SL install cause problems in Lion when I try to install them on a clean Lion install (Paragon NTFS and iStat Pro cause sleep issues, and Norton Antivirus won't install on Lion unless it is running on a 32 bit kernel) however, these apps seemed to be OK when upgrading from SL to Lion. I wonder if somehow the incompatabilities were causing the slow boot and shutdown times?

On another note, I have Win XP already installed in bootcamp from SL and, from what I've read, a fresh install of Lion is supposed to only be compatible with Win 7 in bootcamp? I booted into Win XP and it seemed to boot OK (took a while but that seems to be normal for my MBP).

One more thing (:o) - Anyone who had the MPEG-2 Playback Component and tries to install in Lion will get an error stating it is for an older version of OS X; apparently, Lion includes a compatible version as part of the standard install.

cubbie5150
Aug 3, 2011, 09:49 AM
kind of a noobish question, but how r u guys doing the clean install???

Using Disk Utility, I restored the InstallESD.dmg (right click the Lion install app, then click show contents to get to this) to a small external firewire HD. Then I booted to that external HD, opened disk utility, erased my internal HD & then back to the installer & did a clean install. Of course I did a Carbon Copy Cloner backup of my previous Snow Leo install on another external drive before doing the erase of my internal.

Michaelgtrusa
Aug 3, 2011, 10:34 AM
I'm glad to hear this.

OW22
Aug 3, 2011, 11:02 AM
I'd imagine it's a case of older macs with a lot of c**p on them that doesn't help the upgrade to Lion.

I just got mine 2 weeks ago with SL and will upgrade to 10.7.1 when it's out. All I have on mine now is iTunes music and movies, photo's and documents and the only thord party programs are flip4mac, RealPlayer and Firefox.

That should be OK. But I'll still make the bootable Lion disk in case I have to do a clean install.

Wolfpup
Aug 3, 2011, 11:47 AM
Yeah...I guess upgrades are better than they used to be, but I just don't trust them. I've just seen too many problems fixing people's computers from just BIZARRE unheard of near untraceable weirdness that only happens on upgraded 'puters.

I don't do it on Windows or OS X.

Speaking of which, hopefully they release that Lion update you can buy soon...

ngenerator
Aug 3, 2011, 11:58 AM
Who here is doing a "zero" out as they're doing a clean install of Lion via USB? Or, are you just installing it without any "cleansing" of the old drive?

I'm never sure if it's worth it to "zero" out an old drive or not. Yeah, there is a small security increase. But, does it help in any other way?

I 1-pass zeroed out my HD before doing my clean install. It took about 2 hours, but I feel more secure. I don't think it would make anything quicker or snappier that I know of.

I'm going to do a 7-pass before selling it, but that's just because of my OCD.

Wolfpup
Aug 3, 2011, 12:06 PM
I 1-pass zeroed out my HD before doing my clean install. It took about 2 hours, but I feel more secure. I don't think it would make anything quicker or snappier that I know of.

I'm going to do a 7-pass before selling it, but that's just because of my OCD.

Personally I wouldn't let a drive that's had personal info on it out in the wild, but if you do, I'd try Darrick's Boot and Nuke, which does better than just zeroing it out. That's...I guess better than nothing, but if it's literally just writing zeros (or any known data) you can technically backtrack to know what the data was.

Of course that's beyond the normal user, but still.

rangen
Aug 4, 2011, 04:42 AM
I 1-pass zeroed out my HD before doing my clean install. It took about 2 hours, but I feel more secure. I don't think it would make anything quicker or snappier that I know of.

I'm going to do a 7-pass before selling it, but that's just because of my OCD.

advisable indeed, though like you say, doing so doesn't pave the way for a 'cleaner' install

ngenerator
Aug 4, 2011, 12:02 PM
Personally I wouldn't let a drive that's had personal info on it out in the wild, but if you do, I'd try Darrick's Boot and Nuke, which does better than just zeroing it out. That's...I guess better than nothing, but if it's literally just writing zeros (or any known data) you can technically backtrack to know what the data was.

Of course that's beyond the normal user, but still.

Yeah, I'm still keeping it for a while longer until I get ready to sell it to my dad, then I'll 7-pass it out and deliver it to him. He's pretty harmless, and the 7 passes of random data (not just zeroes) should work fine.

Wolfpup
Aug 4, 2011, 12:34 PM
Is what Apple's calling "zeroing" out the drive actually using pseudo-random data?

rangen
Aug 5, 2011, 05:11 AM
Is what Apple's calling "zeroing" out the drive actually using pseudo-random data?

I don't believe so