Going back to Snow Leopard, Lion worst OS experience ever [Archive]

ChrisCW11

Jul 29, 2011, 08:38 PM

I give up. There are too many quirks with Lion that make it an unusable OS. This has been the worst OS upgrade experience of my life and I have long used Windows.

First, Lion bricked my Mac Mini. It decoupled my RAID stripe set after forcing its install image into the boot startup, so I had to deal with kernel panics for several days until the remote installer finally started working one day (have 2010 Mac Mini Server with no optical drive). Not sure how or why, but finally the 2 hour long ordeal of restoring Snow Leopard using remote install finally worked for no apparent reason when it failed every other previous time I tried it.

Second, things just do not work on Lion. Like Lion's VNC, nobody has a client that works with it. Nobody has a clue as to WTF Apple did to royally trash VNC on Lion. I don't even think Apple has a clue. You turn on remote management or screen sharing, and your VNC client just stalls or hangs or won't even recognize your box as a valid VNC server. It might work once for a bit, but then disconnect and it will never work again.

I cannot log in to share content from my Mac on a Windows box, this used to always work, now it just will not work. At random times I can't even see my Mac on my network in spite of it being on a fixed IP address.

I can understand if there was just a learning curve or a slightly different way of doing things on Lion, but things just DO NOT WORK on Lion, period. Don't start with "well he is just someone that doesn't know how to do things on Mac", I am a software developer with over 20 years of experience on PC and Mac, trust me when I say it just doesn't work. You check boxes and turn on options and enter the correct information in various boxes, and it ignores all that and just does not work! It may work for a bit, then it stops working unexpectedly.

Was also charged multiple times for Lion and was forced into the server upgrade even though I decided I didn't want the new Lion server content. Apple wants to go diskless media distribution, they can't even get that right. let me upgrade to the product I want, don't charge me $50 to unlock content in a $30 product.

Apple's most advanced OS is just the most advanced pains in the ass I have ever had. It needs to go back in the oven and bake a little while longer, it is way to half baked. Did Apple do ANY QUALITY CONTROL with Lion? Or did they just rush it out because they wanted to sell new Macbook Airs?

I am not even in a fringe market doing strange **** with my Mac, I bought a Mac Mini server for the purpose of sharing media with my devices, and it worked flawlessly on Snow Leopard. NOTHING works anymore, I even suspect that Lion is somehow slowing down my internet transfers because I can get faster transfers on other devices if I turn off my Mac Mini. I mean WTF!

Maybe by 10.8.6 I might upgrade, but I can't wait around for Apple to arrogantly assume nothing is wrong with Lion and roll out piecemeal updates to stealthily improve Lion. Lion was not rewritten from the ground up, why could it not build off the legacy of Snow Leopard and just work flawlessly?

Everyone involved in Lion at Apple should be ashamed of themselves for rolling out a joke. Diskless media distribution is half baked, Lion is half baked, Apple is half baked.

Jagardn

Jul 29, 2011, 09:06 PM

<SNIP>Everyone involved in Lion at Apple should be ashamed of themselves for rolling out a joke. Diskless media distribution is half baked, Lion is half baked, Apple is half baked.

It just must be a train wreck. The high number of sales and mostly good reviews tell a different story. My lion experience has been great. Sure there are a few bugs, but I expected to see them.

CrzySausageBaby

Jul 29, 2011, 09:13 PM

I'm happy with my Lionism :D

Nuckinfuts

Jul 29, 2011, 09:13 PM

I love how some people make forum accounts just to whine.

Lion was widely advertised for its visual/usability features, why would you jump on a new OS at a .0 release for a SERVER?

20 years of experience... lol

Dark Void

Jul 29, 2011, 09:17 PM

So use Snow Leopard.

robgendreau

Jul 29, 2011, 10:39 PM

Well ouch.

But, fanboys, there is some valid criticism here. For example, the VNC thing wasn't readily apparent; I shouldn't have had to search around about it to figure out how it had changed (BTW, works for me now: since you can log in to multiple user accounts, you need to log into the Mac's vnc server with the account name and password. Dunno if that's the intention or a workaround though since it gets you past the new vnc login screen).

Taz Mangus

Jul 29, 2011, 11:08 PM

Not sure what the issue that people are having with VNC under Lion but I have had no issues using VNC to access my Mac that has Lion installed on it from my iPad. I also have no issue accessing my Lion installed Mac from any other Mac computer in my house.

I was also pleasantly surprised that my Mac that went from Snow Leopard to Lion now has faster network speeds, 106Mb/s to 162Mb/s.

Nuckinfuts

Jul 29, 2011, 11:35 PM

Smacky

Jul 30, 2011, 12:21 AM

Well if it wasn't ready for public release, then why did Apple release it?
All the beta testers seemed to miss that VNC was screwed, and also that wake on wifi doesn't work

Sesso

Jul 30, 2011, 12:41 AM

I really feel that some of that is user error. Also sounds like he installed the regular Lion and not the server edition. OF COURSE its gonna break the raid.

I can find and interact with windows boxes here at home and at school WAY better than I could with snow leopard. This is my fav OS so far from Apple.

Koshtaru

Jul 30, 2011, 01:01 AM

Ive been using Lion since GM and i've had no issues at all.. Works great on my MBP!

myosh

Jul 30, 2011, 01:44 AM

Ive been using Lion since GM and i've had no issues at all.. Works great on my MBP!Interesting to read all the comments about Lion. I own a 13" MBP and a 2010 Mac Pro and unlike other OS X upgrades, I've basically held off on upgrading because of the significant UI changes made.

The way I see it, Apple may have created 3 distinct OSes. Snow Leopard is the desktop OS, Lion is the laptop OS and iOS is for mobile devices (iPhone, iPad). Why am I saying this? Unless you have a trackpad connected to your iMac/Mac Pro/Mini, you are unable to use the gestures added in Lion. In any case, I plan to wait out Lion for a little while but when I make the upgrade, I will upgrade the MBP first. Whether or not I upgrade my Mac Pro remains to be seen.

bobnlyne

Jul 30, 2011, 08:06 AM

I like Lion a lot except for the way it sucks the life out of the battery on my new 13" MBP. The fan begins running as soon as I open the lid, even in a cool room. I have been operating with SL for five months and have never experienced this. I even lose 6-8% of the charge overnight with the lid closed.

I'm a newbie with Macs, and my experience is pretty limited, but even I know when something changes THAT much.

rzucker

Jul 30, 2011, 08:16 AM

I have been using Lion since the morning it was released. I haven't had one issue with it. Not sure how it works for some and not for others.

tootall

Jul 30, 2011, 08:20 AM

IWhy am I saying this? Unless you have a trackpad connected to your iMac/Mac Pro/Mini, you are unable to use the gestures added in Lion.

It's not quite true; the only gestures that cannot be made with a mouse pertain to Lauchpad and Mission control. They can both be accessed via the function keys or the active corners.

Personnally, I like lion a lot.

tholtx

Jul 30, 2011, 08:55 AM

I was still using good old Microsoft Office 2004 with no problems under Snow Leopard. I installed Lion. Nobody warned me that Office 2004 wouldn't work under Lion. So I installed Office 2011, imported 11 years worth of emails into Outlook 2011 from Entourage 2004, and all the inbox (but not the sent) messages appeared with the identical (recent) dates!!!!!!! Does anyone know how to (a) correct this, or (b) unmount Lion and go back to Snow Leopard?

JRoDDz

Jul 30, 2011, 09:06 AM

It's not quite true; the only gestures that cannot be made with a mouse pertain to Lauchpad and Mission control. They can both be accessed via the function keys or the active corners.

Personnally, I like lion a lot.

I have this mouse

http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/public/Y9P5Z2xU9dvU3diFcTEyDtsI5apN5MCztmE_Pjs0JaB9B4Ea1HbJmKGnpLDpWFj-Irn3d6DoENWACwuurz5RBJdp02TobxvJn5IOYIEFjx_DFICV-isVl8xwbZexmUI

Which gestures are you talking about?

siwsan

Jul 30, 2011, 09:54 AM

I give up. There are too many quirks with Lion that make it an unusable OS. This has been the worst OS upgrade experience of my life and I have long used Windows.

I totally agree. Being a professional user and developer, I'm not in any way impressed with Lion. In my opinion it's the worst piece of crap ever released from Apple.

There is one fundamental problem with these forums. As soon as anyone criticize Lion there will always be replies like "I have no problem", "There is no problems", "It's always bugs in new OS's, it's ok", "It was only $29.95, what do you expect", "I'm not feeling dumbed down", "You are just whining", "Steve Jobs does a great job", "If you don't like it, buy a PC", "It's not perfect, but it's called evolution", etc etc. It reminds me of Bagdad Bob's total denial of problems when the USA forces approached Bagdad in the beginning of the Iraq war. "There are no tanks noway near Bagdad - It's just propaganda from the infidels".

I mean, there must be a chance for constructive debate. If any criticism is written here, it's regarded as swearing in the Apple church where Steve is the pastor. The non-Lion followers are dismissed as infidels.

This makes me worried in a sense. If we together identify the bugs, anomalies, flaws, broken functionality and really discuss the fundamental problems surrounding Lion - and do so in a mature way - there might be a chance to make Apple listen and come up with solutions.

My standpoint is - after serious testing and compatibilty analysis - that Lion is not a commercial quality piece of software, that upon release was nowhere near primetime.

QuarterSwede

Jul 30, 2011, 10:03 AM

My standpoint is - after serious testing and compatibilty analysis - that Lion is not a commercial quality piece of software, that upon release was nowhere near primetime.
I think that's an exaggeration after using it for a while. It feels like the last beta before a GM really. That's par for the course for Apple though. With every OS release it seems they use the general public as final beta testers. I'm not saying that's okay (it bugs me) but it's certainly no surprise.

Synergie

Jul 30, 2011, 10:08 AM

phonk

Jul 30, 2011, 10:14 AM

jsfpa

Jul 30, 2011, 10:25 AM

There is one fundamental problem with these forums. As soon as anyone criticize Lion there will always be replies like "I have no problem", "There is no problems", "It's always bugs in new OS's, it's ok", "It was only $29.95, what do you expect", "I'm not feeling dumbed down", "You are just whining", "Steve Jobs does a great job", "If you don't like it, buy a PC", "It's not perfect, but it's called evolution", etc etc. It reminds me of Bagdad Bob's total denial of problems when the USA forces approached Bagdad in the beginning of the Iraq war. "There are no tanks noway near Bagdad - It's just propaganda from the infidels".

I mean, there must be a chance for constructive debate. If any criticism is written here, it's regarded as swearing in the Apple church where Steve is the pastor. The non-Lion followers are dismissed as infidels.

This makes me worried in a sense. If we together identify the bugs, anomalies, flaws, broken functionality and really discuss the fundamental problems surrounding Lion - and do so in a mature way - there might be a chance to make Apple listen and come up with solutions.

I think it has to do with extremes. Statements like "it's Apple's Visa, Apple's failure, it's crap, etc don't sound like constructive criticism. It makes it sound like because one persons doesn't like it, all should follow. I think these extreme posts evoke a response to defend what another person likes.

Tozzi

Jul 30, 2011, 01:27 PM

My standpoint is - after serious testing and compatibilty analysis - that Lion is not a commercial quality piece of software, that upon release was nowhere near primetime.

I agree 100% with everything you said.
Lion is half-baked; I'd love to upgrade, but I can't.
10.7.0 makes my second display useless, and it freezes my MBP.
It's a shame that those who are lucky enough to not experience any problems blame us here, implying that we are doing something wrong, when it's clearly Apple's fault.
And it doesn't really matter if there's a hardware problem underneath that surfaces under Lion but not under SL or Windows7, or if it's a bug in Lion itself.
Either way, I am screwed as a customer.

"It just works."
Yeah I wish it did.

parapup

Jul 30, 2011, 01:36 PM

How is this for constructive criticism?

1) Lion broke my ability to use smart card authentication for VPN
2) For the first time after Tiger - I had sleep/wake issues on a fresh, plain, unmodified installation.
3) For the first time I had apps not starting up for long time - on a SSD - for no reason.
4) I saw random hangs and beach balls
5) For the first time Airport connections to Apple's own fully updated Time Capsule just failed to work on wakeup from sleep.

All in all it wasn't such a great experience and we got only eye candy in return. Not a good deal even at $29 if you ask me.

MisterDisney

Jul 30, 2011, 01:42 PM

I've been generally happy with Lion. I installed it on my iMac first but it's now made it's way onto the other Macs in the house.

If you are going to jump on any OS at launch, there are going to be a whole host of issues. But as that has gone in the past, Lion's aren't bad. At least, I have yet to experience many of the things that people have complained about.

It's easier to get along with Lion than some other new operating systems have been at release. Especially where they were just a generation ago. But honestly, if you absolutely need your working environment to be completely stable and to work in the way you've become accustomed to, then you should always wait. Instead of jumping in when you know so much has changed. Heck, I wouldn't be half as happy with Lion if I hadn't bought a Magic Trackpad to use with it.

Nuckinfuts

Jul 30, 2011, 02:49 PM

I totally agree. Being a professional user and developer, I'm not in any way impressed with Lion. In my opinion it's the worst piece of crap ever released from Apple.

There is one fundamental problem with these forums. As soon as anyone criticize Lion there will always be replies like "I have no problem", "There is no problems", "It's always bugs in new OS's, it's ok", "It was only $29.95, what do you expect", "I'm not feeling dumbed down", "You are just whining", "Steve Jobs does a great job", "If you don't like it, buy a PC", "It's not perfect, but it's called evolution", etc etc. It reminds me of Bagdad Bob's total denial of problems when the USA forces approached Bagdad in the beginning of the Iraq war. "There are no tanks noway near Bagdad - It's just propaganda from the infidels".

I mean, there must be a chance for constructive debate. If any criticism is written here, it's regarded as swearing in the Apple church where Steve is the pastor. The non-Lion followers are dismissed as infidels.

This makes me worried in a sense. If we together identify the bugs, anomalies, flaws, broken functionality and really discuss the fundamental problems surrounding Lion - and do so in a mature way - there might be a chance to make Apple listen and come up with solutions.

My standpoint is - after serious testing and compatibilty analysis - that Lion is not a commercial quality piece of software, that upon release was nowhere near primetime.

constructive responses are in reply to constructive posts

How is this for constructive criticism?

1) Lion broke my ability to use smart card authentication for VPN
2) For the first time after Tiger - I had sleep/wake issues on a fresh, plain, unmodified installation.
3) For the first time I had apps not starting up for long time - on a SSD - for no reason.
4) I saw random hangs and beach balls
5) For the first time Airport connections to Apple's own fully updated Time Capsule just failed to work on wakeup from sleep.

All in all it wasn't such a great experience and we got only eye candy in return. Not a good deal even at $29 if you ask me.

Call up apple and complain, I've had no problems but you apparently are. Support lines are open for this kind of thing

Gemütlichkeit

Jul 30, 2011, 03:03 PM

OH THE HUMANITY! (sharing the over dramatic thread title)

parapup

Jul 30, 2011, 03:09 PM

Call up apple and complain, I've had no problems but you apparently are. Support lines are open for this kind of thing

Yeah, been there, done that. Even filed a bug for VPN and fortunately or not, it is a known issue! And about calling support lines - I am afraid that will involve restarts, reinstallations and other time wasting nonsense. Apple support is not for technically savvy people knowing their problems well. It is for those who cannot transfer their music and photos etc.

tom5304

Jul 30, 2011, 03:22 PM

Lion is not the worst experience ever, but it was a broken mess on my Mac. I'm back with a clean install of Snow Leopard, and I'm very happy with it.

Nuckinfuts

Jul 30, 2011, 03:40 PM

Yeah, been there, done that. Even filed a bug for VPN and fortunately or not, it is a known issue! And about calling support lines - I am afraid that will involve restarts, reinstallations and other time wasting nonsense. Apple support is not for technically savvy people knowing their problems well. It is for those who cannot transfer their music and photos etc.

Tech savvy people fix their own problems.

iBug2

Jul 30, 2011, 04:28 PM

My standpoint is - after serious testing and compatibilty analysis - that Lion is not a commercial quality piece of software, that upon release was nowhere near primetime.

So was Leopard or SL on GM releases. Actually Lion incompatibilities at least for me have been fixed much faster than SL. I had to wait several months for all my apps to be SL compatible, but it took 2 weeks for everything I use to get their Lion updates.

robgendreau

Jul 30, 2011, 10:20 PM

I think part of the problem, aside from Apple apologists, is that Apple is far too tight with information.

Take the VNC thing I mentioned. Not a big deal, and there are workarounds, but a heads-up or explanation of the change would have been nice. Lotsa people run headless servers and the like and it would be cool if Apple at least said, "oh, BTW, we've changed that and here's what you can expect."

Contrast that with the support sites where the little developers sell products that rely on Apple's implementation of VNC. They've been mentioning the changes, posting workarounds, and generally being helpful. And those are guys who are working out of their dens for pennies, whilst Apple is what, the second biggest corporation in America??

Or another example, the weak full screen implementation for those with more than one monitor. Sure, it's a small thing, but Apple once paid attention to those details. Perhaps now they don't have to.

Lion doesn't break much new ground. In fact I doubt Apple cares to; I suspect their plan is to stick where the money is, in mobile computing, and let the computing end catch up. You can see that with all the iOS stuff they've imported, some of which is great stuff. But this is an incremental upgrade, and I don't see many people being awestruck by any new features.

Rob

Yeah, there's a lot of griping online.

PlaceofDis

Jul 30, 2011, 10:22 PM

worst OS experience ever? Windows ME clearly stands as the worst experience i've ever had to deal with tbh.

gentlefury

Jul 30, 2011, 10:23 PM

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b34/Andra1/FailFile/Thread-Crap-ComicBookGuy.jpg

RJCP

Jul 31, 2011, 04:05 AM

This makes me worried in a sense. If we together identify the bugs, anomalies, flaws, broken functionality and really discuss the fundamental problems surrounding Lion - and do so in a mature way - there might be a chance to make Apple listen and come up with solutions.

You go and tell that to the hundreds of people who come to this forum and whine and moan endlessly about how Lion was the worst thing that ever happened to them, apparently ignoring the fact that there is something called www.apple.com/feedback where they can report their concerns to Apple and help them release updates valid and useful for everyone.

paulsalter

Jul 31, 2011, 04:20 AM

You go and tell that to the hundreds of people who come to this forum and whine and moan endlessly about how Lion was the worst thing that ever happened to them, apparently ignoring the fact that there is something called www.apple.com/feedback where they can report their concerns to Apple and help them release updates valid and useful for everyone.

Thats is very true and people should report issues to Apple directly

However, this forum would'nt be half as interesting to read if people didnt air their views on the subject :) (for me anyway, I like reading about peoples good/bad experiences with things)

Smacky

Jul 31, 2011, 04:41 AM

Apple's pre-release testing must be pretty bad if such major things can be broken at release

iRod3

Jul 31, 2011, 04:52 AM

Reset your SMC (System Management Controller) and it should fix that issue...

where do you go to do that? I too am new with macs. I have a 13 MBP. thank you for your help and I am loving my new Mac with Lion!

Watabou

Jul 31, 2011, 05:29 AM

where do you go to do that? I too am new with macs. I have a 13 MBP. thank you for your help and I am loving my new Mac with Lion!

Resetting SMC:
http://support.apple.com/kb/ht3964

walkie

Jul 31, 2011, 05:53 AM

After using Snow Leopard for more than one year, I can say Lion is crappy because Apple made MacOSX look like an oversized iPad, bad bad bad...

Buckeyes1995

Jul 31, 2011, 06:30 AM

So far, Lion seems to me to be OK. It has some nice features.

I'm only cracking the surface so far, but my biggest gripe is that my NAS no longer works for Time Machine. This is due to Apple, apparently silently, changing the support for the older version of AFP. Thecus is working on a solution, but it aggravates the crap out of me that it's been more than a week and I have no backups. Even the 'workaround' doesn't work fully.

Anyways.. I think Lion has a lot of potential. I'll see how much I like it as I use it more.

Teevau

Jul 31, 2011, 06:41 AM

All, I resonate with some of the issues... I've been using OS X since first launch and also have the impression that Lion is half baked. They obviously spent most of their time on user interface, getting gestures in, versions, all that stuff you can watch them talk about in the recent keynote... What startled me is how "touchy" Lion server is to configure. Yes I had the same, sometimes you mark a checkbox and it doesn't do what it's supposed to do. For example sharing via SMB. Took me all evening yesterday to get it up and running. Can't even tell what the issue was, my suspicion though is that anyone has to be careful of changing options in system preferences vs. Server admin... That seems to easily screw things up.

Initial performance was a bit sluggish, yes, both on my new Mini Server as well as 2007 MacBook. Looking at Activity monitor, in the first days the systems seems to be fairly busy updating Spotlight indexed, help indexes and all kinds of other stuff that's why the fan keeps blowing. Resolved itself after 2 days for me though.

User experience is ok, but server configuration or any other of the "more advanced functions" (like VNC) is a real headache. That hasn't been debugged well enough. Just hoping they release 10.7.1 soon with lots of fixes...

tigres

Jul 31, 2011, 07:29 AM

Tech savvy people fix their own problems.

Your absolutely correct, that's why many are so upset of the complete train wreck of this release; we can't "fix" it. Oh, and that's Apples job, I'm tires of troubleshooting it for them- screw that.

theluggage

Jul 31, 2011, 10:02 AM

Or another example, the weak full screen implementation for those with more than one monitor. Sure, it's a small thing, but Apple once paid attention to those details. Perhaps now they don't have to.

The question is, do you need full screen on a multi-monitor setup with oodles of screen real estate? It seems to me that the whole point of full screen is about optimizing apps for small, single things where you don't want to faff around with window management. Think of it as "iPad mode" rather than an improved "maximize" button. Also, as screens get larger (and given Apple's fondness for 27" widescreens) I'm finding multiple screens less essential.

Note that full screen mode does let you drag palettes and floating windows to your second monitor (e.g. in mail) but not many full-screen enabled apps have many palettes. It will be interesting to see how third parties implement full screen.

I think that's the problem with Lion: it is a better upgrade for Macbook Air users than people with MacPros, and if you don't use a small laptop with a big touchpad you'll only see the (inevitable) upgrade glitches. The plus side is that if you don't want these features, you can just ignore them. C.f. the mess that Linux is in with distros pushing the tablet-oriented Unity and Gnome Shell as the default.

Lion Server, now... there we have a train wreck! I guess that if you want profile management or XSan then getting them for $50 is a bargain, but the new "Server" app is just too minimal and the documentation (when you find it) just consists of telling you to read the "man" page or go to the postfix/apache/etc. website. Installing the optional "Server Tools" adds some extra configurability (but now the setup is illogically split between two apps) although not everything. Name-based virtual hosts don't work (you can't fix them without borking the GUI) and even IP-based vhosts don't seem to offer any mechanism for custom configurations. Mail relies on you having incoming SMTP - many small outfits will need to fetch it via POP in which case you're on your own working out how to set up fetchmail and create a launchd for it.

Having a minimal GUI and leaving everything else to the command line isn't a bad idea but (a) we need details on how the server components have been set up (paths, config files, helper tools) not just a link to the Apache/Postfix/Postgresql project website and (b) the GUI needs to be set up with hooks for adding custom config files that won't be overwritten.

QuarterSwede

Jul 31, 2011, 10:08 AM

After using Snow Leopard for more than one year, I can say Lion is crappy because Apple made MacOSX look like an oversized iPad, bad bad bad...
Launchpad is basically hidden and doesn't even have it's own keyboard shortcut. That's about the only thing that looks like the iPad besides the new Mail and fullscreen Safari which both work wonderfully. Otherwise it looks like OS X with a facelift.

Accent Audio

Jul 31, 2011, 10:39 AM

I think that's an exaggeration after using it for a while. It feels like the last beta before a GM really. That's par for the course for Apple though. With every OS release it seems they use the general public as final beta testers. I'm not saying that's okay (it bugs me) but it's certainly no surprise.

I could not agree more. Anyone that has been using Apple products for an extended period of time knows that this is par for the course for Apple. I am not saying it's right to use the general public as your beta testers either and it bothers me, but I have learned to live with Apple's idiosyncrasies for the sake of knowing that I am still using the best products available.

robgendreau

Jul 31, 2011, 12:07 PM

The question is, do you need full screen on a multi-monitor setup with oodles of screen real estate? It seems to me that the whole point of full screen is about optimizing apps for small, single things where you don't want to faff around with window management. Think of it as "iPad mode" rather than an improved "maximize" button. Also, as screens get larger (and given Apple's fondness for 27" widescreens) I'm finding multiple screens less essential.

The answer is YES. That's why I bought one. That's why at least the hardware engineers made it possible to connect one. People do presentations, teach, demonstrate, and multitask. Once upon a time Apple looked at how people worked and asked what they wanted; now they tell us what we need? Sheesh.

But it seems a simple little fix; just the ability to control it ourselves. My fear is that Apple is getting further and further from personal computing, exerting more and more control. I think it may eventually hurt them; someone will eventually build a better mousetrap.

Rob

gentlefury

Jul 31, 2011, 12:10 PM

Apple's pre-release testing must be pretty bad if such major things can be broken at release

Please explain what is broken so I can try to experience it...I have had exactly 0 issues with Lion.....which makes it one of the best major OS releases I've dealt with to date!

parapup

Jul 31, 2011, 12:15 PM

Tech savvy people fix their own problems.

Yeah and that's exactly what I did - installed Windows 7! Because however tech savvy you are, you can't fix somebody's else's closed source code for them, don't you agree?

robeddie

Jul 31, 2011, 12:33 PM

Well if it wasn't ready for public release, then why did Apple release it?
All the beta testers seemed to miss that VNC was screwed, and also that wake on wifi doesn't work

Yeah, on two of my five computers, I installed Lion, and on both of those machines, the wifi won't stay connected for more than a minute. then I have to reselect the network to connect again.

I've reset the smc, the airport router - all that stuff.

When I reinstalled Snow Leopard on the Macbook Air, guess what - NO problem at all!!!

Looking at the Apple discussion forums, this is obviously a very common problem with Lion.

The thing is - it's not like this is an off-beat bug that I can excuse Apple for missing. MAKING SURE A COMPUTER PROPERLY CONNECTS TO THE INTERNET SHOULD BE A GROUND ZERO PART OF TESTING.

And yes, I know, Apple will probably (hopefully?) fix this on the .1 release, but how they missed it in the first place is just astonishing.

***All you fan boys can keep using the eye-candied Lion. Me ... I'm going back to an OS that 'JUST WORKS' - Snow Leopard.

Nuckinfuts

Jul 31, 2011, 12:55 PM

Yeah and that's exactly what I did - installed Windows 7! Because however tech savvy you are, you can't fix somebody's else's closed source code for them, don't you agree?

There are always workarounds

luke.mac1

Jul 31, 2011, 12:59 PM

Has anyone other than me decided that Lion just isn't ready yet? I've been using it since the day it came out and today just decided that I couldn't take it anymore and will wait until the first update.
I'm using a 2011 iMac 27" full spec and I cannot even count the number of times I've had to use the power button to restart due to a full system crash loading flash videos. I even tried reinstalling lion from a fresh snow leopard install but that didn't rectify the problem either; now I'm back to good ol' Snow Leopard. Surely I can't be alone in this...

Ah...I didn't see this thread. Glad to see there are other people as frustrated as I am

RevB52

Jul 31, 2011, 01:10 PM

Upgraded my 2011 MacBook Pro 15" 2.0 with no issues. I'm a noob so it was a pretty standard configuration with MS Office 2011, Onyx, and Steam with Half-Life. Sometimes hook it up via displayport to a Dell u2311h, with apple keyboard and magic mouse.
Upgraded from the MAS on the morning it came out, worked as advertised. I own a couple of iPads and it's no iPad...my 2 cents. Seems a lot of people with issues have pimped out their systems a bit.

theluggage

Jul 31, 2011, 01:23 PM

The answer is YES. That's why I bought one.

And have your two screens stopped working with Lion? No.

Its just that full-screen mode doesn't make sense with dual monitors, but if you look at how Mail and XCode behave in full screen and apply a bit of design nous you'll see that the whole point is to make them work well on a single, small screen.

Incidentally - both Linux and Windows are taking a much more radical line towards "tabletization" - see the recent Windows 8 demo and all the flack about Gnome Shell and Ubuntu Unity. At least Apple haven't taken away the maximize button!

Heb 7:4

Jul 31, 2011, 01:35 PM

I also have no issue accessing my Lion installed Mac from any other Mac computer in my house..
Good for you, not so good if your HTPC is Windows 7. Can still see my windows HTPC and laptop from the Mac, but the Mac (where all my media is stored) is now invisible. Really really annoying, and having searched the web quite a few people seem to be having the same problem.

Tozzi

Jul 31, 2011, 02:38 PM

Surely I can't be alone in this...

You're not.

revelated

Jul 31, 2011, 02:57 PM

The question is, do you need full screen on a multi-monitor setup with oodles of screen real estate?
....
Also, as screens get larger (and given Apple's fondness for 27" widescreens) I'm finding multiple screens less essential.

Multiple monitors will always rule the roost. The only OS that has made multiple monitors a bit of a non-starter is Windows 7 with the Snap fuctionality - something Apple DESPERATELY needed if they wanted people to be more productive.

I also agree that basic things such as network/LAN connectivity should have been priority. Nevermind the glaring security issue that was identified with passwords being stored plainly on the machine and accessible. Unix doesn't do that, to my knowledge, so why does Lion have such a security issue?

Atarikid

Jul 31, 2011, 03:12 PM

Well, I tend to agree. Lion is a vastly pushed OS X version.
As a developer I also digged into some new APIs and let me tell you, there are some awesome and obvious bugs in many new features (NSPopup is a disaster). I already implemented some new stuff in my main apps but it took many 'tricks' to implement them in a good way.

Anyway, I feel Lion is good enough for most casual users that do not require some more advanced features (though some simple things also not work correctly). Those people will say 'It works smoothly, with no issues'. And thats fine by me.
For me though .. it isn't. I fully hopes the next Xcode with updated APIs AND 10.7.1 is a bit usable for me.

soulreaver99

Jul 31, 2011, 03:25 PM

I had a crapload of issues and annoyances when upgrading from Snow Leopard to Lion to the point where I had to start the "Lion is Apple's Vista" thread that all the fanboys love.

After All the frustration, I did a clean install of Lion and it has been OK so far. However there is still the NAS drive compatibility issue (which has a work around) and other OS related problems but the experience is much better than running on an upgrade.

I can not recommend installing this via upgrade. You'd actually save more time doing a clean install and even BETTER off sticking with Snow until apple works out their sht.

ashforma

Jul 31, 2011, 03:33 PM

It is not perfect, but the advantages outweigh the issues and the issues will be resolved..

M

tigres

Jul 31, 2011, 03:39 PM

It is not perfect, but the advantages outweigh the issues and the issues will be resolved..

M

In your infinite wisdom, do you count non working Mail with IMAP just an issue? Or how about disconnecting Network connections? Or how about not being able to connect to network shared work folder(s)? Just curious if I should just wait to use my work mail on my mac until the issues are resolved.

I'll just use my iPhone for the next ___ months until I can use mail again; my customers will understand.

Gomff

Jul 31, 2011, 06:16 PM

If all you do on your mac is check twitbook stuff then Lion is ok. For professional use though, it has kinks aplenty.

I've found 3d graphics work is a challenge in Lion.....OpenGL has some serious issues, despite the fact that the GPU options on the mac are so limited and should therefore be less problematic.

I hope this gets sorted out with updates but I'm not holding my breath. Meanwhile I still depend on a stable Snow Leopard partition to get the job done.

balamw

Jul 31, 2011, 06:23 PM

Yeah and that's exactly what I did - installed Windows 7! Because however tech savvy you are, you can't fix somebody's else's closed source code for them, don't you agree?

Somehow that would seem more satisfying if you had installed Linux or some other Open Source OS, wouldn't it. :p

B

handel30

Jul 31, 2011, 06:25 PM

I installed Lion on my month-old white Macbook about a week ago. So far, so good. I haven't experienced a single problem except that downloading took 10 hours because of my slow internet connection. Web browsing is really snappy and faster or as fast as Snow Leopard. Boot up time is still awesomely fast. I love it.

Nuckinfuts

Jul 31, 2011, 06:42 PM

In your infinite wisdom, do you count non working Mail with IMAP just an issue? Or how about disconnecting Network connections? Or how about not being able to connect to network shared work folder(s)? Just curious if I should just wait to use my work mail on my mac until the issues are resolved.

I'll just use my iPhone for the next ___ months until I can use mail again; my customers will understand.

All of the problems you listed work fine for me...

MartiNZ

Jul 31, 2011, 06:51 PM

Multiple monitors will always rule the roost. The only OS that has made multiple monitors a bit of a non-starter is Windows 7 with the Snap fuctionality - something Apple DESPERATELY needed if they wanted people to be more productive.

I also agree that basic things such as network/LAN connectivity should have been priority. Nevermind the glaring security issue that was identified with passwords being stored plainly on the machine and accessible. Unix doesn't do that, to my knowledge, so why does Lion have such a security issue?

No way, if Apple added Snap it would be game over - knowing them there would be no way to turn off that which is widely acknowledged as the worst feature known to man. Thank goodness there is a convoluted off-switch in 7 for it. First time I've seen Snap and more productive in the same sentence ... except perhaps "I turned off Snap and became more productive :D".

I have ditched my dual monitor setup in Lion so far, and am starting to really embrace fullscreen apps - though I would like a show menubar option.

Different strokes, in summary, of course!

gentlefury

Jul 31, 2011, 06:53 PM

QuarterSwede

Jul 31, 2011, 06:53 PM

All of the problems you listed work fine for me...
Same here. IMAP in Mail works just as well as it did for me in Snow Leopard. Sorry he's having issues though.

gentlefury

Jul 31, 2011, 06:58 PM

Same here. IMAP in Mail works just as well as it did for me in Snow Leopard. Sorry he's having issues though.

Gmail IMAP is screwed lately! Has nothing to do with Lion...my iPhone and iPad are having the exact same problem with IMAP. It was just coincidence that their system got horrible the same day Lion came out. It's been REALLY annoying! So much so that I now have my gmail forwarded to my MobileMe account so I can receive my emails!

I'm really starting to hate google!

dcalliances

Jul 31, 2011, 07:52 PM

When I'm upgrading to Lion from SnowLeopard, I didn't have a choice due to my system was slow for the last 1 month or so. I couldn't work it what it is (spinning circle thingy, can't access internet sometimes through WiFi, slow opening up Word document etc etc).

So I've upgraded anyway ... and turns out really well. I haven't seen any spinning a lot of spinning circle thing happening which is good and accessing webpages seem no problem.

The only issue that I got is that I have Canon software and now that software is not working with this new version. :(

DCAlliances

nealh

Jul 31, 2011, 09:10 PM

Wow. I find it funny how many defend Apple when they release a subpar product. iPhone 4 antenna issue, iPad 2 screen bleeds etc.

Now an OS that is clearly buggy and has issues. When MS does this Apple fanboys scream how that never happens and how perfect Apple is.

Holy crap, call like it is. Apple rushed another product to the market that is buggy and rough. Why because they can and people buy and believe it's perfect.

Apple has gotten too big and arrogant.

I am more than willing to call Apple out. I own numerous Apple products( iMac, iPad2, iPhone 4 and 2 iTouches) and while they integrate well, the QC is not what I expect from premium priced product. Moreover, QC seems to be getting worse with each new product lately.

Nuckinfuts

Jul 31, 2011, 09:13 PM

revelated

Aug 1, 2011, 12:12 AM

No way, if Apple added Snap it would be game over - knowing them there would be no way to turn off that which is widely acknowledged as the worst feature known to man. Thank goodness there is a convoluted off-switch in 7 for it. First time I've seen Snap and more productive in the same sentence ... except perhaps "I turned off Snap and became more productive :D".

I have ditched my dual monitor setup in Lion so far, and am starting to really embrace fullscreen apps - though I would like a show menubar option.

Different strokes, in summary, of course!

People who downplay Snap are snapping it wrong. It makes the best use of a 27" monitor in years.

MythicFrost

Aug 1, 2011, 12:34 AM

I've not used the server version of Snow Leopard or Lion, so I can't comment on anything about that. But, it's generally best to wait and see how things go before you update if you're not willing to deal with problems.

I've updated my 27" iMac and my mum's 13" MacBook Pro which are both running very smoothly and very well with no bugs, glitches, or hiccups of any kind. I was prepared to deal with any issues, but I'm glad to say I've encountered none.

However, I did a clean install rather than an upgrade. I created a small partition on an external drive and burned the image file of Lion to that and booted into it. It then created another little partition with the installer on it by itself and I erased my main drive (after backing up extensively), selected the main drive to install to, and voila.

xkmxkmxlmx

Aug 1, 2011, 12:41 AM

I loved it on the MBA. Everything just seemed *right*.

Now, on my trackpad-less iMac, I am not feeling that same love. I am seriously debating going back to SL at this point.

Macshroomer

Aug 1, 2011, 12:42 AM

I totally agree. Being a professional user and developer, I'm not in any way impressed with Lion. In my opinion it's the worst piece of crap ever released from Apple.

Another pro user here, yep, total waste of my time and money, a bunch of graphic toys and a TON of issues. Like, maybe I am an idiot, but how do I get the file count to show on all windows and not just each one by toggling show status in view?

Total crap made for the masses that like to spend all day playing on a computer instead of pros who have a life, want to get the work done then get the hell off of the thing so we can spend time in the real world...

parapup

Aug 1, 2011, 06:20 PM

For the first friggin time - my audio now stops working after 8 hrs of up time - Haven't had this problem even on Linux for crying out loud! Lion is bunch of crap.

:mad:

Don't believe me - check this out -

Sound assertion "0 == fAudioEngineArray" failed in AppleHDADriver at line 3045 goto Exit
Sound assertion "0 == fAudioEngineArray" failed in AppleHDADriver at line 3045 goto Exit
Sound assertion "0 == fAudioEngineArray" failed in AppleHDADriver at line 3045 goto Exit
Sound assertion "0 == fAudioEngineArray" failed in AppleHDADriver at line 3045 goto Exit

tom5304

Aug 1, 2011, 06:26 PM

I emailed Apple's iTunes store support today to ask for a refund of my $29 for Lion. Wish me luck... :(

scottsjack

Aug 1, 2011, 06:56 PM

Another pro user here, yep, total waste of my time and money, a bunch of graphic toys and a TON of issues. Like, maybe I am an idiot, but how do I get the file count to show on all windows and not just each one by toggling show status in view?

Total crap made for the masses that like to spend all day playing on a computer instead of pros who have a life, want to get the work done then get the hell off of the thing so we can spend time in the real world...

There was a time when real computer users worked on Windows machines and high school girls fiddled on goofy looking, translucent iMacs. God, I hope we're not headed forward into the past.

soulreaver99

Aug 1, 2011, 07:01 PM

Instead of starting another thread... here's a new issue on my CLEAN install of Lion...

Nonstop spinning beachball and freezing at the login screen when booting up. WTF?! Never had this issue on any release of OSX. Anyone else have this problem?

I let the first few incidences slide because I thought maybe it was just me or it was a whatever but now it's become somewhat chronic and happened 3 times today...

Thanks!

iDave

Aug 1, 2011, 07:02 PM

I have to agree with the OP, Lion pretty much bites. A Mac user since 1989, I find very little to like, and lots to dislike about Lion. There's too much eye candy, and my Macs seem much slower now.

tigres

Aug 1, 2011, 07:21 PM

21% done on my restore back in time to SL. Fingers crossed, who ever thought getting excited going back to a previous OS version. Not I, that's for sure; but Lion for me was a dead stick-

parapup

Aug 1, 2011, 07:27 PM

21% done on my restore back in time to SL. Fingers crossed, who ever thought getting excited going back to a previous OS version. Not I, that's for sure; but Lion for me was a dead stick-

You and me both - I am running to SL faster than you though 67% in restore to 10.6.8 :-)

I cant use my USB devices in Lion and cant listen to music. Enough lameness to warrant restore.

I am not waiting until 10.7.2 so if your refund is processed I will also ask for one.

thermodynamic

Aug 1, 2011, 07:39 PM

It just must be a train wreck. The high number of sales and mostly good reviews tell a different story. My lion experience has been great. Sure there are a few bugs, but I expected to see them.

(Mostly) good reviews would tell the story. A high number of sales is meaningless, except for telling the fact many copies were sold. Anything based on that is mere inference. 30 million people could watch a TV show, but that doesn't mean all of them loved it.

Bugs always exist, in every x.0 release of every piece of software. That became the norm around, oh, 1981... when did Microsoft first foist MS-DOS onto the public, again? :D

thermodynamic

Aug 1, 2011, 07:42 PM

There was a time when real computer users worked on Windows machines and high school girls fiddled on goofy looking, translucent iMacs. God, I hope we're not headed forward into the past.

"Worked" meaning reconfiguring or optimizing the thing, or as in doing actual work? :D (Been a DOS/Win 3.x/Win95 --> Win7 user for 20 years... with Mac, Amiga, Atari, BeOS, and other competing computing platforms as well... heading back into the past would be nice because back then we had real competition and competitiveness... Microsoft's marketing and their predatory actions helped dismantle competition... I mean, competition is said to be a good thing and all...)

Gemütlichkeit

Aug 1, 2011, 07:44 PM

tigres

Aug 1, 2011, 07:45 PM

You and me both - I am running to SL faster than you though 67% in restore to 10.6.8 :-)

I cant use my USB devices in Lion and cant listen to music. Enough lameness to warrant restore.

I am not waiting until 10.7.2 so if your refund is processed I will also ask for one.

Well you'll be there before me that's fir sure. I forgot to check my refund process, I am sure they will credit me, they said so in an email.

I really hope they get this sorted in the future updates; I really tried to make it work; then I just got pissed and decided enough was enough. Go back to what works, and really well at that.

I hope Steve does not have to go on stage and say Lion was not their finest hour; but it was my worst OS experience out of Apple ever.

Macshroomer

Aug 1, 2011, 08:06 PM

My admin password is not working after restore, any ideas...?....I am getting so fed up with this...

oBMTo

Aug 1, 2011, 08:34 PM

Can't stand Lion, switching back to Windows 7.

theluggage

Aug 2, 2011, 04:25 AM

I don't use IMAP so I can't vouch for that. However I haven't seen either of your other issues.

IMAP works for me (tm). That doesn't mean it works for everybody.

That's the thing with these issues: its not a case of Apple shipping an OS in which things Just Don't Work*, these are issues cropping up with people's particular set-ups. Maybe its their particular IMAP (not the best-defined internet standard ever) server. Maybe its something they have installed in the past interfering. Maybe its some quirk of their home network setup. These things happen. That's why the old adage "Never buy version 1.0 of anything" is still true. Seriously: never upgrade to a new OS the week it comes out unless you plan on spending a weekend firefighting.

Apple does have one big problem, though: At this stage in a Windows roll-out, most PC vendors would still be offering the old OS as an option. However, only Apple make Macs, and they seem to have gone for a clean sweep, replacing everything with Lion. If someone at work breaks their Mac tomorrow, I need to get them a new one with 10.6 on because, although I've got Lion on my personal home machine, it isn't going anywhere near work for at least 6 months. Heck, I've still got people to wean off Office 2004 - and at least one person still uses Eudora =:-O So, where is the option in Apple's online store to order a machine with 10.6?

* I'm talking about regular Lion here. Lion Server is half baked, I hit at least one feature that just won't/can't work (name-based virtual hosts), the documentation is pathetic and its blindingly obvious that it is not an equivalent replacement for SL Server.

Phil A.

Aug 2, 2011, 04:30 AM

Like, maybe I am an idiot, but how do I get the file count to show on all windows and not just each one by toggling show status in view?

Not sure what you mean here - are you saying that the status bar doesn't show on all windows automatically once you've turned it on?

blackburn

Aug 2, 2011, 08:42 AM

"Worked" meaning reconfiguring or optimizing the thing, or as in doing actual work? :D (Been a DOS/Win 3.x/Win95 --> Win7 user for 20 years... with Mac, Amiga, Atari, BeOS, and other competing computing platforms as well... heading back into the past would be nice because back then we had real competition and competitiveness... Microsoft's marketing and their predatory actions helped dismantle competition... I mean, competition is said to be a good thing and all...)

Man I don't know why but I do miss BeOS. I still play with Haiku but is in alpha stages.

senc01a

Aug 2, 2011, 08:57 AM

I agree 100% with everything you said.
Lion is half-baked; I'd love to upgrade, but I can't.
10.7.0 makes my second display useless, and it freezes my MBP.
It's a shame that those who are lucky enough to not experience any problems blame us here, implying that we are doing something wrong, when it's clearly Apple's fault.
And it doesn't really matter if there's a hardware problem underneath that surfaces under Lion but not under SL or Windows7, or if it's a bug in Lion itself.
Either way, I am screwed as a customer.

"It just works."
Yeah I wish it did.

Oh really? Well, I gotta say that it doesn't freeze my MacbookPro and my second display works like a charm. Does that mean that it might actually be fully baked? I bet you 100 bucks that if you remove all the cheesy useless add-on-plugings that you found on that chinesse website, it will work perfect.
Have you considered that?
.....

tigres

Aug 2, 2011, 09:00 AM

Oh really? Well, I gotta say that it doesn't freeze my MacbookPro and my second display works like a charm. Does that mean that it might actually be fully baked? I bet you 100 bucks that if you remove all the cheesy useless add-on-plugings that you found on that chinesse website, it will work perfect.
Have you considered that?
.....

Lemme guess, It's all about you.:rolleyes:

blackburn

Aug 2, 2011, 09:00 AM

mobilehavoc

Aug 2, 2011, 09:22 AM

I still don't get it, why do people who have issues with lion get attacked. I did a clean install and I've experienced many of the issues that people are talking about like freezing, and general slowness.

The one good thing about Lion is it's shown the moderate Apple users the crazy Apple zealots/fanboys that everyone has had to deal with for years.

It's never Apple's fault it's always yours somehow...don't you get it? :rolleyes:

blackburn

Aug 2, 2011, 09:28 AM

jackc

Aug 2, 2011, 09:36 AM

Total crap made for the masses that like to spend all day playing on a computer instead of pros who have a life, want to get the work done then get the hell off of the thing so we can spend time in the real world...

I'm not blaming the people complaining, but why be an early upgrader then? Unless you just bought a new machine and don't really have a choice without downgrading.

I'm waiting until some of the bugs are ironed out.

tigres

Aug 2, 2011, 09:36 AM

KPOM

Aug 2, 2011, 09:39 AM

Well I solved all my problems with just upgrading to SL 10.6.8. Even had a couple of new updates for me when I did.

SL is by far the best OS I have ever used. Solved all my problems in 45 minutes time. I was actually pretty shocked on how miserable my overall experience was w/Lion, but- that is my own fault for jumping in the water without feeling the temp first.

On the other hand, most of me thinks that :apple: borked this OS in a bad bad way.

They released it a few months too early because they committed to a July release and wanted to get the MacBook Airs and Minis out (and didn't want to release them with Snow Leopard).

I think Apple will eventually fix the bugs, but it will be a bumpier ride than normal for an Apple release.

stratokaster

Aug 2, 2011, 09:43 AM

Well, everyone will be forced to upgrade eventually. Given ARC and other niceties in the new Objective-C runtime, I expect to see a steady flow of Lion-only applications, and so far it seems that iCloud will also be Lion-only. And, just to honest, Lion is not really as bad as some make it to be.

seong

Aug 2, 2011, 09:48 AM

It will get better as time goes on. By the time 10.7.3~5 is out, every Mac user with compatible hardware will most likely have Lion installed. Now, it seems kind of buggy, but those are things to be sorted out, just like Tiger, Leopard, and Snow Leopard.

Phil A.

Aug 2, 2011, 04:24 PM

The one good thing about Lion is it's shown the moderate Apple users the crazy Apple zealots/fanboys that everyone has had to deal with for years.

It's never Apple's fault it's always yours somehow...don't you get it? :rolleyes:

Yeah looks like there are many blinded fanboys. Some people have to do real work, not just browse facebook and email other people. Maybe I'm holding it wrong:rolleyes:.

Why do you assume that people who aren't having problems are "blinded fanboys" or "crazy apple zealots"? I use my mac for real work 10-12 hours a day and haven't had any problems at all with Lion. I don't know why it works for me, but the fact is it does

ZipZap

Aug 2, 2011, 04:39 PM

Well if it wasn't ready for public release, then why did Apple release it?
All the beta testers seemed to miss that VNC was screwed, and also that wake on wifi doesn't work

To make money, why else?

You had to search to figure out a fairly localized problem you had with a less used feature of the system? And you solved it? How horrible!!

There are just so many issues that require a search to resolve. Does not sound too stable to me.

I totally agree. Being a professional user and developer, I'm not in any way impressed with Lion. In my opinion it's the worst piece of crap ever released from Apple.

There is one fundamental problem with these forums. As soon as anyone criticize Lion there will always be replies like "I have no problem", "There is no problems", "It's always bugs in new OS's, it's ok", "It was only $29.95, what do you expect", "I'm not feeling dumbed down", "You are just whining", "Steve Jobs does a great job", "If you don't like it, buy a PC", "It's not perfect, but it's called evolution", etc etc. It reminds me of Bagdad Bob's total denial of problems when the USA forces approached Bagdad in the beginning of the Iraq war. "There are no tanks noway near Bagdad - It's just propaganda from the infidels".

I mean, there must be a chance for constructive debate. If any criticism is written here, it's regarded as swearing in the Apple church where Steve is the pastor. The non-Lion followers are dismissed as infidels.

This makes me worried in a sense. If we together identify the bugs, anomalies, flaws, broken functionality and really discuss the fundamental problems surrounding Lion - and do so in a mature way - there might be a chance to make Apple listen and come up with solutions.

My standpoint is - after serious testing and compatibilty analysis - that Lion is not a commercial quality piece of software, that upon release was nowhere near primetime.

Well said and totally true. Thanks for telling it like it is!

I think it has to do with extremes. Statements like "it's Apple's Visa, Apple's failure, it's crap, etc don't sound like constructive criticism. It makes it sound like because one persons doesn't like it, all should follow. I think these extreme posts evoke a response to defend what another person likes.

Well these comments seem reasonable after hearing for sooooo long that Mac OS is so superior to Windows.

Nixir

Aug 2, 2011, 04:54 PM

Well these comments seem reasonable after hearing for sooooo long that Mac OS is so superior to Windows.

How about... Lion is Apple's Unbuntu 11.04 :D This way it's still better than Windows but worst of the bunch ahaha

I have nothing against Ubuntu, but I dislike Unity :mad:

azazel-

Aug 2, 2011, 05:24 PM

Please explain what is broken so I can try to experience it...I have had exactly 0 issues with Lion.....which makes it one of the best major OS releases I've dealt with to date!

How about the deluge of posts on the Apple support forums from people relating that Lion will hard-lock at the login screen on their Macbook Pros, unless automatic graphics switching is disabled? The graphics-switching crashes occurred for me quite frequently with SL 10.6.3 up to around 10.6.5, and it finally seemed Apple had the issues sorted out. Haven't had a graphics-related crash for [b]months[/i]...until Lion was released. Now, it's happening all the time, unless hardware features are disabled. That certainly doesn't sound ready for prime-time to me.

Instead of starting another thread... here's a new issue on my CLEAN install of Lion...

Nonstop spinning beachball and freezing at the login screen when booting up. WTF?! Never had this issue on any release of OSX. Anyone else have this problem?

I let the first few incidences slide because I thought maybe it was just me or it was a whatever but now it's become somewhat chronic and happened 3 times today...

Thanks!

Disable 'Automatic Graphics Switching', or set the system to automatically log you in. Or, you can reinstall SL, like I'm about to do in a few minutes.

Your choice.

KPOM

Aug 2, 2011, 05:50 PM

I'm not blaming the people complaining, but why be an early upgrader then? Unless you just bought a new machine and don't really have a choice without downgrading.

I'm waiting until some of the bugs are ironed out.

I have a 2011 MacBook Air, so Snow Leopard is not an option for me. That said, the kind of issues I've noticed (taking a few seconds longer waking from sleep, or "forgetting" my Wi-Fi is a preferred connection) are more along the lines of minor annoyances than fatal flaws with Lion. Office 2011 has worked fine for me, and I even installed Office 2008 from a DVD to make sure that it would install OK (it did), since my mother prefers PowerPoint 2008 and I wanted to check before I gave her the green light to upgrade her 2009 MacBook Pro.

I think her experience has been fine, apart from the fact that she didn't like the new Mail. Once she changed it back, it's been fine, too.

I'm pretty confident Apple will fix this, but I am definitely concerned at the level of bugs here. Apple shouldn't have committed to a July release date, and probably should have just released the new Air and Mini with Snow Leopard two weeks earlier rather than rush Lion out the door before it was ready. Too many "switchers" having a "Vista" experience would be bad for Apple's future sales.

steveOooo

Nov 5, 2011, 04:51 PM

It's crap, some apps I need for video editing don't work / crash when opened... Back o 10.6.8 - a OSX That works

Patrick J

Nov 5, 2011, 06:06 PM

I’ve been happy with Lion. Updates .1 and .2 have made it a very nice operating system.

jameslmoser

Nov 5, 2011, 06:30 PM

MythicFrost

Nov 5, 2011, 09:34 PM

We just got a $4k imac preinstalled with Lion 10.7.2. It has nothing but apple's software on it and it just locks up for no reason every couple of hours. Its brand new! We installed Windows 7 in boot camp and it runs fine all day.

The Lion is brain dead and bug infested.
What do you mean "preinstalled"? If an upgrade has been done (which is automatic unless you wipe the first drive (and backup your data before that)) then that might be why. I did two clean installs for Lion and both are running flawlessly even on a 2010 13" MacBook Pro.

Doing a clean install might fix your problem.

Macshroomer

Nov 5, 2011, 11:11 PM

Having Lion hose my 3.33 Mac Pro to the point that it nuked a 2TB drive cost about 3 grand in down time. That said, I *might* go to Lion sometime next year, but with my laptop first. If that goes well, I will upgrade my main machine, but not until then.

But wow, out of all my colleagues who use Mac professionally, only 2 out of 16 who tried Lion out stuck with it.....it gets my vote for the worst OS on release in a long, long time.

jameslmoser

Nov 6, 2011, 02:06 AM

What do you mean "preinstalled"? If an upgrade has been done (which is automatic unless you wipe the first drive (and backup your data before that)) then that might be why. I did two clean installs for Lion and both are running flawlessly even on a 2010 13" MacBook Pro.

Doing a clean install might fix your problem.

I mean the FedEx guy dropped it off, we opened it up, and it had Lion (10.7.2) already installed... can't do much more of a clean install. Have called support over and over and over again and all they do is clean the cache, reset PRAM, same old crap. It just completely freezes up... first one app becomes non-responsive, then you try to change to another app, then it stops responding and before you know it nothing responds and you just get a spinning beach ball. We have had so many macs and have been with apple since 10.2... this is the worst excuse of an "upgrade" ever, and coming from apple ("it just works") is a joke.

And no its not a hardware issue... we installed windows in bootcamp partition and it runs just fine for days.

Simplicated

Nov 6, 2011, 03:35 AM

I mean the FedEx guy dropped it off, we opened it up, and it had Lion (10.7.2) already installed... can't do much more of a clean install. Have called support over and over and over again and all they do is clean the cache, reset PRAM, same old crap. It just completely freezes up... first one app becomes non-responsive, then you try to change to another app, then it stops responding and before you know it nothing responds and you just get a spinning beach ball. We have had so many macs and have been with apple since 10.2... this is the worst excuse of an "upgrade" ever, and coming from apple ("it just works") is a joke.

And no its not a hardware issue... we installed windows in bootcamp partition and it runs just fine for days.

You can downgrade to Snow Leopard if you have another Mac and the DVD. Use a FireWire cable to hook the two Macs up, and start your iMac in Target Disk Mode. Boot your other Mac and insert the OS X Install DVD. Install as usual but be sure you choose your iMac's hard drive. When the installation is complete, run Software Update to update to 10.6.8 and voila, your iMac is running Snow Leopard.

colourfastt

Nov 6, 2011, 08:16 AM

You can downgrade to Snow Leopard if you have another Mac and the DVD. Use a FireWire cable to hook the two Macs up, and start your iMac in Target Disk Mode. Boot your other Mac and insert the OS X Install DVD. Install as usual but be sure you choose your iMac's hard drive. When the installation is complete, run Software Update to update to 10.6.8 and voila, your iMac is running Snow Leopard.

That's UPGRADE to Snow Leopard.

Eestlane

Nov 6, 2011, 08:49 AM

Its my first Mac overall and it has Lion on it.

But looks like i have to get Snow Leopard because my 3G modem won't get recognized:mad:

newfoundglory

Nov 6, 2011, 09:24 AM

I don't blame you guys for going to back to Snow Leopard. I've installed both Lion and SL on all my Macs, and every time I use SL i'm reminded of how fast and stable it is compared to Lion.

I like Lion, but very frustrated at how slow Apple has been at fixing things. I've got at least 5 or 6 issues, but the three which really annoy me are:

1. random graphics rendering corruption (particularly with 320M but also the HD3000, both in Safari and iTunes). Graphics drivers do not seem to be up to standard, as this doesn't happen in Snow Leopard.

2. the fact Lion cannot always be installed using RAID - Is a repeatable installation failure of OS X not a serious enough bug for Apple to fix?

3. Finder which appears to randomly stop displaying the contents of folders.

Annoying to say the least... Apple too interested in iOS to be bothered with OS X?

soulreaver99

Nov 6, 2011, 09:53 AM

That's UPGRADE to Snow Leopard.

LOL. I like to think of snow leopard as a PATCH to lion. When I got my early MBP 2011, it had Lion installed on it. Out of the box, in the first 3 hours of using it, I had 2 incidents of spinning beach balls and not being to wake up from sleep mode. Thankfully I had a hard drive cloned with snow and loaded that to the laptop and all problems were fixed and everything ran noticeably faster.

I guess we need to give lion another six months :rolleyes:

alembic

Dec 20, 2011, 10:39 PM

Snow Leopard has been great. For my usage pattern, Lion offers little value. I want to buy a MacBook Air next year. Lion is going to be installed. Can I wipe it clean and install Snow Leopard?

laudern

Dec 21, 2011, 06:30 AM

Snow Leopard has been great. For my usage pattern, Lion offers little value. I want to buy a MacBook Air next year. Lion is going to be installed. Can I wipe it clean and install Snow Leopard?

Nah you cant downgrade to SL, as SL wont have driver support for your new machine. It totally sucks and has put me off buying any type of mac while lion is the current OS.
:eek:

tigres

Dec 21, 2011, 11:44 AM

Nah you cant downgrade to SL, as SL wont have driver support for your new machine. It totally sucks and has put me off buying any type of mac while lion is the current OS.
:eek:

I'll be using my 2010 MBA for long into the future it looks like as well.

kemo

Jan 7, 2012, 10:20 AM

so what's the newest Macbook Pro I can buy so it gonna support Snow Leopard without any issues? I'm gonna stick with Snow a bit longer than I thought because Lion pretty much su*ks for now...

WSR

Jan 7, 2012, 02:38 PM

so what's the newest Macbook Pro I can buy so it gonna support Snow Leopard without any issues? I'm gonna stick with Snow a bit longer than I thought because Lion pretty much su*ks for now...

I bought an early 2011 2.3GHz 15" MBP(MacBookPro8,2), with SL already installed, right before Lion came out. This was the top-end over-the-counter 15" model that was as fast as some of the 17" models and has a Thunderbolt port.

Initially I was going to wait for the next OS (Lion), but after seeing what they had done to Spaces, I decided to get one with SL while I could.

My understanding is that ones that came with Lion installed are difficult, if not impossible, to take back to SL.

jlrathke

Jan 7, 2012, 02:47 PM

I've been kicking around installing Lion on my May 2011 MBP for the last week or so...it's not my primary machine, but soon will be I think. I'm going to finally give my Win 7 desktop a rest and use the MBP docked full time. I'm glad now I haven't upgraded to Lion. Initially, I thought it was gimmicky and it seems that may be true. I suppose, though, if I didn't like Lion I could restore with my Snow Leopard disks....right?

Jerry

Gomff

Jan 7, 2012, 06:54 PM

Nah you cant downgrade to SL, as SL wont have driver support for your new machine. It totally sucks and has put me off buying any type of mac while lion is the current OS.
:eek:

Hate to say it but I don't think it'll get any better the way things are going.

iOS, Windows and OS X are headed towards the model of computers as appliances, with specific, defined functionality. Press this button to buy an app, that button to buy some music, or this one to write an email.

ScottishCaptain

Jan 7, 2012, 11:59 PM

Hate to say it but I don't think it'll get any better the way things are going.

iOS, Windows and OS X are headed towards the model of computers as appliances, with specific, defined functionality. Press this button to buy an app, that button to buy some music, or this one to write an email.

That's nice.

So where do you think apps are magically going to come from? If everything is reduced down to a facebook/twitter-checking-appliance, where are developers going to do actual work (you know, actually creating stuff) making applications that empower these platforms?

iOS wouldn't be where it is right now without Mac OS X and Xcode. Keep that in mind. Some people want an operating system that stays out of their way. This forced-hand-holding stuff in Lion is not "staying out of the way". It's planting itself right in front of you and refusing to move until you accept Apple's new way of "doing things".

-SC

kemo

Jan 8, 2012, 04:48 AM

I bought an early 2011 2.3GHz 15" MBP(MacBookPro8,2), with SL already installed, right before Lion came out. This was the top-end over-the-counter 15" model that was as fast as some of the 17" models and has a Thunderbolt port.

Initially I was going to wait for the next OS (Lion), but after seeing what they had done to Spaces, I decided to get one with SL while I could.

My understanding is that ones that came with Lion installed are difficult, if not impossible, to take back to SL.

Thanks, well then it seems I wont get it brand new already, because they are offering just Lion preinstalled. Then it seems Im gonna stick with my mid 2010 i5, 8GB, SSD for now and wait if they come with some high res displays for Laptops as well.

LostSoul80

Jan 8, 2012, 04:51 AM

I think it's very hardware dependent. If you have a 2011 Mac and maybe more RAM than the stock one, you're fine. If not, SL remains your best option.

Gomff

Jan 8, 2012, 07:25 AM

That's nice.

So where do you think apps are magically going to come from? If everything is reduced down to a facebook/twitter-checking-appliance, where are developers going to do actual work (you know, actually creating stuff) making applications that empower these platforms?

iOS wouldn't be where it is right now without Mac OS X and Xcode. Keep that in mind. Some people want an operating system that stays out of their way. This forced-hand-holding stuff in Lion is not "staying out of the way". It's planting itself right in front of you and refusing to move until you accept Apple's new way of "doing things".

-SC

I've got to be honest, my reaction to being commanded to "Keep that in mind" isn't positive but I'm going to do my best not to get in a dust up with you, particularly since the second half of your post seems to contradict the first half, and which I actually agree with....Unless you've quoted someone else there but forgotten the quote tags?

If you value your freedom to do what you want with your computer hardware, watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYqkU1y0AYc

SOPA is just the beginning of the stripping away of your rights to use a computer how you like.

doktordoris

Jan 8, 2012, 12:02 PM

Joos24

Jan 8, 2012, 12:20 PM

Just read this whole thread. I have no probs at all with Lion on either of my machines, but they are 2011 macs, and anecdotal evidence is useless. what I wanted to know was why do some posters here slag off the win snap function? I thought it does the same thing as better touch tool i.e. made a window fill half or quarter or all of the screen depending on where the window is dragged to. I love BTT and use it all the time, what do folks dislike about it? or does snap do something else?

BTT is better because you can choose to turn off Snap if you don't want it and still use BTT's other functions. IMO, while the snap is nice in W7, it's annoying as well and our business office turns that feature off. It frustrates people when moving windows around and it resizes to the snap feature. It's a useful feature sometimes but comparing windows side by side isn't something I do daily so it's great you can get it BTT as an option but I wouldn't miss it if that feature was gone the next day.

Generally when I need to compare windows side by side I use App Expose. Also I like the fact that Lion offers more than just two windows to compare. That something that Windows 7's snap feature doesn't do.

doktordoris

Jan 8, 2012, 03:01 PM

aha, thanks for your reply. As I said I think BTT is great, I love being able to make finder windows, programs, and browser windows share the screen easily. WHen I used to own an MBP15 running snow leopard (which was my first ever mac, I bought it April 2010, and had it stolen in Feb 2011) the one thing about switching to OSX that I found difficult to adapt to was the way windows would maximise themselves to the size they wanted, not to fill the screen. But since I bought my 2 new macs last month I have used BTT and loved it, especially when combined with the brilliant way Lion uses virtual desktops.

Hephaestus

Jan 8, 2012, 03:25 PM

I have Snow Leopard on my MBP, but after coming home and using the iMac for the first time in a while, I've just remembered how awful Lion really is. It really is appalling and I'm still surprised Apple released this thing.

Why does the dashboard appear on this horrific plastic car mat background? I know you can change it, but Apple set it to default which means they think it looks good... have they all banged their heads lately?

Why does it ask EVERY time I shut down if I want to relaunch the windows? WHY would I want to relaunch windows after I shut down? WHY?! Think about it logically Apple! Having that as an option for a restart would make sense, and even then there should be a setting to permanently disable it.

Why are the scroll bars so awful? They can barely be seen and don't fit the aesthetic of the OS. Why isn't there an option to have the scroll arrows? If one is using a third party mouse, those buttons are very important.

Why is the colour being stripped out of most of the OS?! WHY?! The finder looks so barren and lifeless, its so grey and boring. The colour in my SL finder looks wonderful, Lion in comparison looks like SL's predecessor for a less capable computer, one that cannot even render simple colours!

Why have they eliminated the whole point of Expose?! Expose is supposed to bring all of my windows into view. On Lion, it layers windows of the same application so they cannot even be seen! That eliminates the point!

To make things worse, my desktop background shrinks and is surrounded my an ugly metal border EVERY time I use it! Why incorporate Spaces when it works perfectly in SL? I use Spaces all the time on my MPB and its great, Lion has screwed up both. These just seem like pointless alterations that were done just for the sake of change. They didn't actually think about functionality.

Don't even get me started on Launchpad. This is the most ridiculous addition to any Apple OS I've ever seen. Ever heard of Spotlight? Or dragging the Applications folder into the dock? Both are faster and more efficient than Launchpad.

Eugh, you really screwed up with this one Apple. Even the darn download progress bar has been ruined! Many of you might be annoyed by this post and view it as whining. Well, to me it needs to be said. Sooner or later I'll probably be forced to upgrade to this hideous "upgrade" of an OS.

Gomff

Jan 8, 2012, 04:27 PM

Hephaestus,

Despite the grief you'll get from apologists in some quarters, you're not alone in your dismay :)

The thing is, people will complain about others "Still whining about it 6 months later" as if it's your fault, rather than a sign of how badly Apple has crossed some of their customers. And that's the thing here......The criticism isn't coming from Windows users trying to get a rise out of Apple apologists (easy as that would be).....it's coming from loyal Apple (mostly pro) users who are having a genuine WTF scenario every time they try and crack on with Lion. And the fact that we haven't got round those issues after 6 odd months is a measure of just how severely off piste Apple have gone this time....The usual "Snow Leopard had problems when it first launched" argument is wearing a bit thin.

I'm hoping Apple will address the concerns you mentioned by making them optional, as well as a few more that others have mentioned, including me.

jameslmoser

Jan 8, 2012, 04:47 PM

The usual "Snow Leopard had problems when it first launched" argument is wearing a bit thin.

Agreed. So is the argument that Apple is smart for targeting just consumers with flashy iOS tid bits. The only reason consumers use iOS devices is because of the things they can do on them. The only reason they can do those things is because developers (professionals) created all those apps. Developers can only create those apps on Mac os x with Xcode. Developers are less likely to create those apps if they have to use a system they don't like.

Professional users were also more likely to stay committed to the Mac before apple may it clear they no longer cared about them. Professional users kept Apple relevant when no one else did.

Consumers will buy what is cool and trendy. Trends can change very quickly.

ScottishCaptain

Jan 8, 2012, 04:54 PM

I've got to be honest, my reaction to being commanded to "Keep that in mind" isn't positive but I'm going to do my best not to get in a dust up with you, particularly since the second half of your post seems to contradict the first half, and which I actually agree with....Unless you've quoted someone else there but forgotten the quote tags?

How did my statement contradict itself?

I'm saying that developers will always need power tools to create content for the appliance platforms. Lion is not targeted at power users, and is therefore a hinderance to most of us who need a platform to create things and not to hold our hands every step of the way (Versions is a great example of this- I use SVN and occasionally GIT for that stuff, and there is no option to turn it off. This worries me because a lot of applications seem to be taking advantage of it now and the last thing I need is Photoshop trying to dump a 200MB PSB file through Versions and clogging up my disk drive in the process).

Therefore, it is in the interest of some developers (who make great use of Expose, Spaces, don't need Versions, etc) to stay on 10.6.x. However Apple is doing their best to *force* everyone to upgrade, and that's what annoys me the most- that the next version of Xcode could be 10.7 only and they could simply say "Sorry, no app store submissions with the 4.(x-1) SDK!".

If you value your freedom to do what you want with your computer hardware, watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYqkU1y0AYc

SOPA is just the beginning of the stripping away of your rights to use a computer how you like.

I do value my freedom. That's why I don't live in the USA.

-SC

Gomff

Jan 8, 2012, 05:20 PM

How did my statement contradict itself?

I'm saying that developers will always need power tools to create content for the appliance platforms. Lion is not targeted at power users, and is therefore a hinderance to most of us who need a platform to create things and not to hold our hands every step of the way (Versions is a great example of this- I use SVN and occasionally GIT for that stuff, and there is no option to turn it off. This worries me because a lot of applications seem to be taking advantage of it now and the last thing I need is Photoshop trying to dump a 200MB PSB file through Versions and clogging up my disk drive in the process).

Therefore, it is in the interest of some developers (who make great use of Expose, Spaces, don't need Versions, etc) to stay on 10.6.x. However Apple is doing their best to *force* everyone to upgrade, and that's what annoys me the most- that the next version of Xcode could be 10.7 only and they could simply say "Sorry, no app store submissions with the 4.(x-1) SDK!".

I do value my freedom. That's why I don't live in the USA.

-SC

You seemed to contradict yourself in so far as you appeared to be advocating Lion for development of iOS apps, and yet disparaging it for hand-holding. On re-reading your post again I see you refer to OS X for application development rather than Lion specifically. I assumed incorrectly, something to which I'll happily admit.

I'm still using Snow Leopard whilst a Lion install sits unused on another disk partition for similar reasons, and I share quite a few of your concerns hence the reluctance to really get into some heated debate.

I don't live in the US either, but you know how the old expression goes, when America sneezes, Britain catches a cold. The ramifications of SOPA extend beyond the borders of the US, as do Spyware, rootkits etc.

Mackilroy

Jan 8, 2012, 07:09 PM

The usual "Snow Leopard had problems when it first launched" argument is wearing a bit thin.
So is the usual "Lion sucks, it can do nothing right, it's riddled with bugs and everyone hates it."

Two sides to every coin.

Gomff

Jan 8, 2012, 07:31 PM

So is the usual "Lion sucks, it can do nothing right, it's riddled with bugs and everyone hates it."

Two sides to every coin.

Well, if we're dishing out clichés, there's no smoke without fire.

If the complaints against Lion were unfounded, wouldn't they have gone away by now?

Joos24

Jan 8, 2012, 07:31 PM

Hephaestus,

The thing is, people will complain about others "Still whining about it 6 months later" as if it's your fault...

And you're complaining about the complainers. ;)

And that's the thing here......The criticism isn't coming from Windows users trying to get a rise out of Apple apologists (easy as that would be).....it's coming from loyal Apple (mostly pro) users who are having a genuine WTF scenario every time they try and crack on with Lion.

What? Do you have a crystal ball? You have absolutely no idea who is sitting behind their computers causing a stir about Lion, your post is nothing more than an assumption. In regards to "Pro Users", again, you have no idea what type of users are doing the complaining. You're assuming once again. :p. FYI, I've seen a handful of Windows users right on this forum saying they don't use Macs but tried out a friend's Mac running Lion and they hated it and were quite vocal on something they have very little experience using.

63dot

Jan 8, 2012, 08:14 PM

I am behind the curve using, very happily for the most part, Macs which are used but still very useful.

I loved Tiger in two Macs that were my mainstay and in recent months got a new (used) Mac with Snow Leopard. I seem to have many issues with Snow Leopard like the OP does with Lion.

Mostly I can get around as well except sometimes the beach ball comes up during youtube and downloading videos. Also for some reason, even though I am wired into the same DSL router which worked great with the two computers with Tiger, Snow Leopard seems sluggish at times on the internet.

I think what some of what the OP has suggested, similar to my experiences, is just the learning curve. But each and every rendition of OS X is more ambitious than the one before it and that could possibly (at least in my case) lead somewhat to instability.

That being said, any issues I had with OS X on any cat version pale in comparison to the issues I had with either Windows ME or Windows Vista.

ScottishCaptain

Jan 8, 2012, 10:27 PM

You seemed to contradict yourself in so far as you appeared to be advocating Lion for development of iOS apps, and yet disparaging it for hand-holding. On re-reading your post again I see you refer to OS X for application development rather than Lion specifically. I assumed incorrectly, something to which I'll happily admit.

Then I apologize for being ambiguous.

I was simply referring to development in general. My own personal source of income (and only source of income at that) stems primarily from iOS development, with the occasional Mac OS X application thrown in (usually server-side things for applications that require something sitting on the computer to talk to).

Being able to work productively and efficiently is what puts food on my table. Right now, 10.6.8 lets me do that. 10.7 does not, and things like Mission Clutter are in fact a bane to my workflow- enough so that I simply cannot waste the time dealing with it, because time is literally money.

What? Do you have a crystal ball? You have absolutely no idea who is sitting behind their computers causing a stir about Lion, your post is nothing more than an assumption. In regards to "Pro Users", again, you have no idea what type of users are doing the complaining. You're assuming once again. :p. FYI, I've seen a handful of Windows users right on this forum saying they don't use Macs but tried out a friend's Mac running Lion and they hated it and were quite vocal on something they have very little experience using.

I have a crystal ball. It's called "friends in the industry".

I can, from direct experience and knowledge, essentially file Lion users that I personally know into one of two groups:

1) Those who are doing non-professional tasks (checking Facebook, writing emails, surfing the internet, managing iTunes music)- who really don't care, and in fact, tend to enjoy everything Lion has to offer.

2) Those who are doing professional tasks (graphics design, audio engineering, post production in television or film)- who definitely care about the changes in Lion, enough so that they've all simply ignored it and gone on with life, and will deal with any attempts to otherwise force them onto 10.7 later (which basically amounts to jumping ship).

Apple already had to back peddle on FCP 7- being that it is now available again if you really need it. There will be severe repercussions to what is left of Apple's professional user base if they continue down the path they're heading with on Lion, and refuse to give users the bare minimum of choices that they should have on any computing platform.

Hell, I wouldn't have any problem at all with Apple offering a desktop, workstation, AND server OS. Sell the base package for $29 or whatever. Then let the users chose what package (if any) they want to tack on for additional features and control. Going even further on that idea, there's no reason why Mission Control and Expose need to be baked into the operating system itself. They could just as well have been apps purchasable through the App Store for $4.99. Let the user figure out which one they want.

-SC

thundersteele

Jan 8, 2012, 11:37 PM

2) Those who are doing professional tasks (graphics design, audio engineering, post production in television or film)- who definitely care about the changes in Lion, enough so that they've all simply ignored it and gone on with life, and will deal with any attempts to otherwise force them onto 10.7 later (which basically amounts to jumping ship).

Just out of curiosity, which changes do prevent graphics designers from doing their work under Lion? I'm not a big fan of Mission control - I'm used to a 3x3 desktop layout with spaces - but other than that, I don't see any deal breakers.

Joos24

Jan 8, 2012, 11:40 PM

Being able to work productively and efficiently is what puts food on my table. Right now, 10.6.8 lets me do that. 10.7 does not, and things like Mission Clutter are in fact a bane to my workflow- enough so that I simply cannot waste the time dealing with it, because time is literally money.

I'm one of the partners in our insurance agency. We have a mixture of Macs and Windows machines. The majority of Macs run Lion and we use them for a lot of creation for advertising our business and Lion's productivity tools have served us well. Also personally I've been on the Mac OS since 8.5 and Lion to me is the best version of OS X to date. Too many small things were missing in Snow Leopard and previous OS X versions that I wanted. Lion now has them. In case you cared I am a power user, not just a Facebook, email user. :rolleyes:

As far as your beef with Mission Control I wish you and others here would speak for yourself rather than acting like everything you hate about Lion is everybody else's problem as well especially if they are "professionals". Lion puts plenty of food on my table, those are your personal issues.

I have a crystal ball. It's called "friends in the industry".

I can, from direct experience and knowledge, essentially file Lion users that I personally know into one of two groups:

1) Those who are doing non-professional tasks (checking Facebook, writing emails, surfing the internet, managing iTunes music)- who really don't care, and in fact, tend to enjoy everything Lion has to offer.

2) Those who are doing professional tasks (graphics design, audio engineering, post production in television or film)- who definitely care about the changes in Lion, enough so that they've all simply ignored it and gone on with life, and will deal with any attempts to otherwise force them onto 10.7 later (which basically amounts to jumping ship).

Well those are the people in your life, not mine. Furthermore, IMO it's quite condescending of you to group people saying that Facebook lurkers, emailers and web surfers don't care about the OS and will accept anything that's given to them and that professionals are the ones that are smart enough to see what the real issues are. (Paraphrasing your words of course).
Posts like yours make me wonder if some of you guys here ever wonder what software Apple is using? They are "thee" power user doing video creation and editing. Do you think they are purposely screwing up their OS so that they can't even use it for the work they do, or maybe they are using Windows 7 secretly. :rolleyes:

vitzr

Jan 9, 2012, 12:02 AM

I love how some people make forum accounts just to whine.

20 years of experience... lol
I find it exceedingly revealing about ones experience, or lack thereof, when they complain about a major point upgrade so soon in it's young life.

No matter the platform, it's expected that any major upgrade will take a few revs to sort out. There's simply no way to test for everything, until it's in the hands of the public.

KnightWRX

Jan 9, 2012, 04:07 AM

I have a crystal ball. It's called "friends in the industry".

I can, from direct experience and knowledge, essentially file Lion users that I personally know into one of two groups:

1) Those who are doing non-professional tasks (checking Facebook, writing emails, surfing the internet, managing iTunes music)- who really don't care, and in fact, tend to enjoy everything Lion has to offer.

2) Those who are doing professional tasks (graphics design, audio engineering, post production in television or film)- who definitely care about the changes in Lion, enough so that they've all simply ignored it and gone on with life, and will deal with any attempts to otherwise force them onto 10.7 later (which basically amounts to jumping ship).

A very narrow view of users. I don't fit in either. I'm 3 :

3) Those who are doing professional tasks (systems administration, hobby programming, scripting and some web design). I care about the changes in Lion, enough so to spend my money on it and have it boost my productivity with the nice changes it brought.

:rolleyes:

6 months later... still people feel the need to rehash the same complaints over and over. I see all the same people from that other thread are back, and they resurrected a thread to boot!

Gomff

Jan 9, 2012, 04:37 AM

6 months later... still people feel the need to rehash the same complaints over and over. I see all the same people from that other thread are back, and they resurrected a thread to boot!

So you joining in and coming out with the same old rebukes after 6 months is different because....?

----------

Then I apologize for being ambiguous.

I was simply referring to development in general. My own personal source of income (and only source of income at that) stems primarily from iOS development, with the occasional Mac OS X application thrown in (usually server-side things for applications that require something sitting on the computer to talk to).

Being able to work productively and efficiently is what puts food on my table. Right now, 10.6.8 lets me do that. 10.7 does not, and things like Mission Clutter are in fact a bane to my workflow- enough so that I simply cannot waste the time dealing with it, because time is literally money.

-SC

No need to apologize, it's all good. ;)

Personally speaking, I do 3D graphics and animation and for a while I could do it all in Snow Leopard. Then technology moved on but Apple didn't, leaving me with old GPU's and poor OpenGL support. With most projects it was possible to muddle through but Lion brought with it broken applications & plugins, instability, dumbed down workflow and no benefits.

Still what do we know? We'll never reach the dizzy heights of the insurance broker "power user".:rolleyes:

In case you hadn't noticed, expect to get rounded on by a couple of folks in particular here....I'm sure you'll be able to work out who I mean......One especially has a penchant for complaining to the mods.

ADMProducer

Jan 9, 2012, 04:53 AM

The only thing I'd like in Lion, as a power-user, is the ability to change the default setting in the tick box asking whether you'd like to restore the desktop next time you start up.

That is all.

Other than that, I am 100% happy with Lion. I do like the new mission control, it's great. Gestures are better than ever. Even the backwards scroll doesn't feel backwards anymore, it feels... natural.

Hephaestus

Jan 9, 2012, 05:11 AM

And you're complaining about the complainers. ;)

What? Do you have a crystal ball? You have absolutely no idea who is sitting behind their computers causing a stir about Lion, your post is nothing more than an assumption. In regards to "Pro Users", again, you have no idea what type of users are doing the complaining. You're assuming once again. :p. FYI, I've seen a handful of Windows users right on this forum saying they don't use Macs but tried out a friend's Mac running Lion and they hated it and were quite vocal on something they have very little experience using.

He's right. What are you suggesting? That people who don't even own Macs post criticisms just for the sake of it? Do you really think people care that much about a darn computer? You should get out more if that is your perception. When people are praising I bet you don't say that, just because its negative CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, you plug your ears.

Apple have screwed up big time with Lion, anyone with an attention to detail like Steve had knows that, hell I bet Steve thought so too. If he was still around in good health, I don't think the Lion we have today would look like this.

----------

Hephaestus,

Despite the grief you'll get from apologists in some quarters, you're not alone in your dismay :)

The thing is, people will complain about others "Still whining about it 6 months later" as if it's your fault, rather than a sign of how badly Apple has crossed some of their customers. And that's the thing here......The criticism isn't coming from Windows users trying to get a rise out of Apple apologists (easy as that would be).....it's coming from loyal Apple (mostly pro) users who are having a genuine WTF scenario every time they try and crack on with Lion. And the fact that we haven't got round those issues after 6 odd months is a measure of just how severely off piste Apple have gone this time....The usual "Snow Leopard had problems when it first launched" argument is wearing a bit thin.

I'm hoping Apple will address the concerns you mentioned by making them optional, as well as a few more that others have mentioned, including me.

Nice to see I'm not alone!

Mkostera16

Jan 9, 2012, 05:46 AM

I love lion :) great upgrade from snow leopard

Gomff

Jan 9, 2012, 08:04 AM

They are "the" power user doing video creation and editing. Do you think they are purposely screwing up their OS so that they can't even use it for the work they do, or maybe they are using Windows 7 secretly. :rolleyes:

Wouldn't be unprecedented for Apple to use Microsoft software:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/02/icloud_runs_on_microsoft_azure_and_amazon/

linuxcooldude

Jan 9, 2012, 08:39 AM

Wouldn't be unprecedented for Apple to use Microsoft software:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/02/icloud_runs_on_microsoft_azure_and_amazon/

It would not be unprecedented for microsoft to use UNIX to run its Hotmail service, at the time, Windows servers couldn't handle the load. Apple is UNIX compliant by the way.

Gomff

Jan 9, 2012, 08:51 AM

It would not be unprecedented for microsoft to use UNIX to run its Hotmail service, at the time, Windows servers couldn't handle the load.

I'm sure you're right....It doesn't bother me one way or the other what platform any of these companies use....I merely posted the link to illustrate the point that it's not a good idea to assume everything Apple do uses Macs and OS X.

KnightWRX

Jan 9, 2012, 08:53 AM

It would not be unprecedented for microsoft to use UNIX to run its Hotmail service, at the time, Windows servers couldn't handle the load. Apple is UNIX compliant by the way.

A myth mostly. Here's the case study for the migration :

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb496985.aspx

5000 thousand servers is not something you just migrate over night. Frankly, I'm surprised they even attempted it after only 3 years of ownership of hotmail, that's a pretty short timeframe for such a migration effort (I see much longer migration projects around here for much simpler systems).

Enterprise computing does not work like consumer computing.

linuxcooldude

Jan 9, 2012, 08:55 AM

I'm sure you're right....It doesn't bother me one way or the other what platform any of these companies use....I merely posted the link to illustrate the point that it's not a good idea to assume everything Apple do uses Macs and OS X.

Well we all know Apple uses Samsung parts, which are competitors.

[QUOTE=KnightWRX;14132382]A myth mostly. Here's the case study for the migration :

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb496985.aspx

5000 thousand servers is not something you just migrate over night. Frankly, I'm surprised they even attempted it after only 3 years of ownership of hotmail, that's a pretty short timeframe for such a migration effort (I see much longer migration projects around here for much simpler systems).

Enterprise computing does not work like consumer computing.

I don't know if I would call it mostly a myth. But I think it took around 7 years for turn over. Yes, I agree, it takes time to switch over.

Joos24

Jan 9, 2012, 11:15 AM

Wouldn't be unprecedented for Apple to use Microsoft software:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/02/icloud_runs_on_microsoft_azure_and_amazon/

Oh please, that article is about their cloud service. I was making a point about Apple using their own operating system. I'm sure you understood that. :p

Apple is not going to purposely screw up their own system that they develop and use with the software they create to run on it, that's silly for them. That's why I sarcastically said "maybe they are using Windows 7 to do their pro-creation since Lion (according to some on this forum) sucks.

Uh, you did not need to correct my english, I wrote the word right. I meant "THEE" Mr. non-english teacher. ;)

Gomff

Jan 9, 2012, 11:27 AM

Oh please, that article is about their cloud service. I was making a point about Apple using their own operating system. I'm sure you understood that. :p

I love how you can be depended on to miss my point utterly. If you're going to follow me around these forums, you could at least pay attention:rolleyes:

Apple is not going to purposely screw up their own system that they develop and use with the software they create to run on it, that's silly for them. That's why I sarcastically said "maybe they are using Windows 7 to do their pro-creation since Lion (according to some on this forum) sucks.

And you know what Apple uses for everything....how?

Uh, you did not need to correct my English, I wrote the word right. I meant "THEE" Mr. non-English teacher. ;)

OK, apologies....I didn't realize you'd slipped into using old English for some obscure reason:rolleyes:

KnightWRX

Jan 9, 2012, 11:45 AM

I don't know if I would call it mostly a myth. But I think it took around 7 years for turn over. Yes, I agree, it takes time to switch over.

Well then, do you have any proof that "Windows couldn't handle the load" outside of rantings of a few in the open source community ? I was a big open source geek in those days (still am, just don't hang around much the community anymore) and frankly no one could ever provide proof of that when Microsoft purchased Hotmail. It was frankly just a case of having to plan things out and carry it out, which for such a system is an undertaking measured in years.

That's just how enterprise IT is.

Joos24

Jan 9, 2012, 01:00 PM

I love how you can be depended on to miss my point utterly. If you're going to follow me around these forums, you could at least pay attention:rolleyes:

And you know what Apple uses for everything....how?

OK, apologies....I didn't realize you'd slipped into using old English for some obscure reason:rolleyes:

Nice how your post always end up in personal insults and attacks and correcting people. You keep making it personal after just a couple of posts. :rolleyes: You can't keep a civil conversation? No worries. There are others on here that can. I will no longer respond to anymore of your posts as I know exactly who and what I am dealing with. No wonder your posts keep getting rated down. :p

Michaelgtrusa

Jan 9, 2012, 01:08 PM

Guys back to the topic.

KnightWRX

Jan 9, 2012, 01:17 PM

Guys back to the topic.

What topic ? This thread was ressurrected from 6 months ago. The topic long ago died.

scottsjack

Jan 9, 2012, 04:00 PM

What topic ? This thread was ressurrected from 6 months ago. The topic long ago died.

Exactly; some users really like Lion while other done. That's about it.

Gomff

Jan 9, 2012, 05:14 PM

Nice how your post always end up in personal insults and attacks and correcting people. You keep making it personal after just a couple of posts. :rolleyes: You can't keep a civil conversation? No worries. There are others on here that can. I will no longer respond to anymore of your posts as I know exactly who and what I am dealing with. No wonder your posts keep getting rated down. :p

Exactly "who and what" are you dealing with? Please tell me. And then after that, please do leave me alone on these forums.....I really don't like talking with you. Every time I've had dealings with you it's because you've quoted something I've said and replied with some obtuse remark. Not once have I ever begun a conversation with you. I have noticed this pattern repeat itself with you and other people though, do you not ever stop to consider that it might be something you have started? You seem to think these forums are for the exclusive purpose of saying how great everything is that Apple does, and that it's your job to attack any criticism.

Don't you tire of provoking people when they express an opinion that differs from yours, and then playing the victim when someone takes issue with your behaviour?

I couldn't care less about being voted down by you or your friends on here.....I feel pity for anyone that does care about such things.