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vmachiel
Aug 3, 2011, 10:34 AM
Hi,

Ever since I installed Lion, my mac keep freezing on boot and shut down. Just the beach ball or a white screen and i'm unable to do anything. I read on other sites that people with non-apple ssd's are experiencing this to. Anyone here got that problem and did you find a fix? Maybe it's the fact that TRIM is not enabled?



miles01110
Aug 3, 2011, 10:35 AM
All SSDs are "non-Apple", because Apple does not make SSDs.

Weaselboy
Aug 3, 2011, 10:38 AM
Hi,

Ever since I installed Lion, my mac keep freezing on boot and shut down. Just the beach ball or a white screen and i'm unable to do anything. I read on other sites that people with non-apple ssd's are experiencing this to. Anyone here got that problem and did you find a fix? Maybe it's the fact that TRIM is not enabled?

What model Mac do you have and what brand SSD is it? Did you have the SSD installed before the Lion update and it worked properly? Nothing about a standard Lion install should have changed that.

All SSDs are "non-Apple", because Apple does not make SSDs.

I think you knew what he meant.

Michaelgtrusa
Aug 3, 2011, 10:51 AM
Go for it! You'll be fine.

xgman
Aug 3, 2011, 11:18 AM
Try this. It helped speed mine up dramatically.

First, open up Disk Utility. Select your SSD in the sidebar and go to the “Erase” tab. Click the “Erase Free Space” button, and let it do its thing. (Ot could take up to 15 minutes or so, and might slow down your computer a few times. I’d just step away from the computer and leave it alone for a while).

When that’s done, open up a Terminal window and type the following commands, hitting Enter and letting the command finish after each line:

sudo chown root:admin /

sudo kextcache -system-prelinked-kernel

sudo kextcache -system-caches

(You’ll know when a command finishes because the prompt will come back with your computer’s name). These commands will clear some of your caches that can slow down your boot time.

Then maybe repair permissions for the heck of it and restart.

Wolfpup
Aug 3, 2011, 11:42 AM
So TRIM still isn't supported in anything but Apple SSDs in 10.7?

HAVE their been widespread issues with OS X and SSDs? I'm still on the fence with what to get, but a 13" Pro + 300GB Intel 320 SSD sounds pretty good for a tiny system, unless there are issues doing that.

I think Intel's drives are fairly resistant to problems without TRIM (though performance will still hit half speed, but that's still fast). I've heard Crucial's drives are more tweaked around needing it though (I mean they all need it, but...) so I won't get one for OS X (same flash as Intel's though!)

All SSDs are "non-Apple", because Apple does not make SSDs.

He meant "SSDs not sold by Apple".

vmachiel
Aug 3, 2011, 11:43 AM
Sorry i have a OCZ Agility 2 ssd

Weaselboy
Aug 3, 2011, 12:22 PM
So TRIM still isn't supported in anything but Apple SSDs in 10.7?

The Apple OEM SSDs are the only ones with native TRIM support. There is a hack that can be enabled to add TRIM support to non-Apple drives.

HAVE their been widespread issues with OS X and SSDs?

There were a lot of issues but they seem to have been mostly sorted out by firmware upgrades. The big problem has been many SSD vendors offer no way to upgrade firmware in OS X.

I'm still on the fence with what to get, but a 13" Pro + 300GB Intel 320 SSD sounds pretty good for a tiny system, unless there are issues doing that.

I think Intel's drives are fairly resistant to problems without TRIM (though performance will still hit half speed, but that's still fast). I've heard Crucial's drives are more tweaked around needing it though (I mean they all need it, but...) so I won't get one for OS X (same flash as Intel's though!)

The Intel 320 was pretty popular around here and Intel historically has a good reputation for SSD reliability, but there have recently been problems with the Intel 320 just up and dying due to power issues. Intel says they are working on a firmware update to fix this. I would not buy a Intel 320 until they update the firmware to fix this issue.

Samsung 470 seems to have good compatibility.

All the newer SSDs have some form of "garbage collection" in their firmware and I would not be overly concerned about this issue.

50548
Aug 3, 2011, 12:23 PM
I've just had a Vertex 3 SATA 3 SSD installed by an AASP, and everything seems fine so far. Besides, SandForce-controlled SSDs do NOT need TRIM (actually TRIM may decrease performance considerably).

Another thing: Apple only provides TRIM support to its factory-installed drives because TRIM needs to be carefully configured for each type of SSD - apps such as TRIM Enabler may actually screw up after-market SSD performance and provide zero benefits, as already widely reported by other people...

Weaselboy
Aug 3, 2011, 12:23 PM
Sorry i have a OCZ Agility 2 ssd

Maybe try a safe boot and see if that helps. If not maybe a fresh install.

Wolfpup
Aug 3, 2011, 12:31 PM
The Apple OEM SSDs are the only ones with native TRIM support. There is a hack that can be enabled to add TRIM support to non-Apple drives.

Dumb question, but do you know what it is or how I can find out more?

There were a lot of issues but they seem to have been mostly sorted out by firmware upgrades. The big problem has been many SSD vendors offer no way to upgrade firmware in OS X.

OOOOOOOH, okay, that makes sense. Yeah, Seagate's Momentus XT was in the same boat. Windows it's like "click here, it tells you your current and the new firmware, reboot, a few seconds later you're done". Macs? I guess you can do it in Boot Camp (not sure if you need an OS installed though or not).

The Intel 320 was pretty popular around here and Intel historically has a good reputation for SSD reliability, but there have recently been problems with the Intel 320 just up and dying due to power issues. Intel says they are working on a firmware update to fix this. I would not buy a Intel 320 until they update the firmware to fix this issue.

Yikes. Thanks for the warning! Not what I expect from Intel. I like the 320 too because of the hardware encryption (although maybe that needs a hard drive password to be meaningful?)

Samsung 470 seems to have good compatibility.

And thanks for this too! Makes sense I guess since Apple's using a lot of Samsung stuff.

Dang...with a 256GB Samsung 470, that would make a 13" Pro $1500...versus $1750 for the semi-equivalent Air (after bumping up the CPU, adding a Superdrive and Ethernet port). I like the Pro better in nearly ever way, and it's a bit faster than the upgraded 13" Air, BUT I'm thinking of this just as a second system, and in this case the normally minuscule size/weight difference might be a bit more significant to me since I'd be carrying around two notebooks...

Weaselboy
Aug 3, 2011, 12:40 PM
Dumb question, but do you know what it is or how I can find out more?

No problem. Here (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1125400) is a thread from the dev. of an app that installs the hack.

Wolfpup
Aug 3, 2011, 12:43 PM
SandForce-controlled SSDs do NOT need TRIM (actually TRIM may decrease performance considerably).

Another thing: Apple only provides TRIM support to its factory-installed drives because TRIM needs to be carefully configured for each type of SSD - apps such as TRIM Enabler may actually screw up after-market SSD performance and provide zero benefits, as already widely reported by other people...

I don't mean to be rude, but neither part of that is correct. All SSDs benefit from TRIM, the only difference is the degree, but all of them will write slower without TRIM than with (once the drive's been used up. Sandforce controllers are using compression (that continues to worry me just slightly) but that's still the case for them.

And TRIM absolutely does not need to be configured individually by drive. It's just a command supported by the OS. In the case of Windows 7, Windows sees that the drive is an SSD and flips it on, while flipping off defragmentation.

It then issues the TRIM command to the drive when deleting stuff...the delete takes slightly longer, but essentially makes the area "clean" again like the drive was new, so writes don't decrease.

Basically TRIM moves that penalty inherent to SSDs from write time to delete time. Without it you basically end up having write performance (at best), which can still be very fast, but...

Apple not supporting TRIM is just them trying to push first party drives. There shouldn't be any technical limitation. I mean once support's added to the OS, as it has been, at that point it's just a matter of querying the drive, and flipping it on. Windows 7 (and I think Linux) have supported it since 2009.

gentlefury
Aug 3, 2011, 12:56 PM
I have a samsung ssd and it runs like a beast!

Wolfpup
Aug 3, 2011, 12:56 PM
No problem. Here (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1125400) is a thread from the dev. of an app that installs the hack.

Thanks! I'll check out that thread...my purchase decision may hang on it LOL

EDIT: Darn, it looks like that program doesn't enable real TRIM support? Basically just lets you clear free space within the OS manually?

Better than nothing, at least.

50548
Aug 3, 2011, 01:37 PM
I don't mean to be rude, but neither part of that is correct. All SSDs benefit from TRIM, the only difference is the degree, but all of them will write slower without TRIM than with (once the drive's been used up. Sandforce controllers are using compression (that continues to worry me just slightly) but that's still the case for them.

And TRIM absolutely does not need to be configured individually by drive. It's just a command supported by the OS. In the case of Windows 7, Windows sees that the drive is an SSD and flips it on, while flipping off defragmentation.

It then issues the TRIM command to the drive when deleting stuff...the delete takes slightly longer, but essentially makes the area "clean" again like the drive was new, so writes don't decrease.

Basically TRIM moves that penalty inherent to SSDs from write time to delete time. Without it you basically end up having write performance (at best), which can still be very fast, but...

Apple not supporting TRIM is just them trying to push first party drives. There shouldn't be any technical limitation. I mean once support's added to the OS, as it has been, at that point it's just a matter of querying the drive, and flipping it on. Windows 7 (and I think Linux) have supported it since 2009.

I don't mean to be rude either, but you're not right - I've read a lot of discussions about this already:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2766683?start=60&tstart=0

http://digitaldj.net/2011/07/21/trim-enabler-for-lion/

Please read Hyram's comprehensive explanation on the DigitalDJ link above...TRIM is NOT advised for SF-controlled drives.

Wolfpup
Aug 3, 2011, 02:17 PM
I don't mean to be rude either, but you're not right - I've read a lot of discussions about this already:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2766683?start=60&tstart=0

http://digitaldj.net/2011/07/21/trim-enabler-for-lion/

Hyram:

Apple locked TRIM support for a very good reason — their code works reliably with the SSD’s they’ve chosen to use and no others, because they have programmed in nanosecond-critical timing loops that match perfectly with the access timings of the controllers used in Apple’s SSDs.

This is nonsensical. For one, they don't even use the same drives in all their systems. For another, TRIM doesn't require "nanosecond-critical timing loops" any more than any other disk command. The OS issues the command, the drive does it, end of story. Same as the OS issuing a "write this file" command. The OS doesn't know or care how this is being done, the drive handles it.

Using these drivers with other controllers can, at best, slow them down, and at worst, increase the thermal effect that kills storage cells by forcing the controller to act when it isn’t quite ready.

This is also nonsensical. The TRIM command doesn't "force the controller to act when it isn't quite ready". It CAN'T do that. TRIM is just a command like any other-the OS issues it, the drive carries it out as it can, in the way that it's designed to.

Then there is the Sandforce issue. SSDs which use one of Sandforce’s DuraClass controllers (SF1200 or better) do not need TRIM at all, as they have their own garbage collection and wear levelling system built in which uses parallel writes, as there are actually two sets of chip controllers built in — whilst one is satisfying the demands of the host in reading & writing requested data, the other is autonomously managing the solid state arrays, shifting regularly-accessed data into new cells, updating block indexes and generally spreading the workload around to ensure thermal effects are kept to an absolute minimum.

Drives with Sandforce controllers are less affected by what TRIM fixes, because they're compressing data, and thus reducing writes, and thus (potentially) less effected by writes taking longer due to lack of TRIM.

However they're still slowed down like any other-this is the nature of the technology.

Things the drives do in the background can help, but are kludge-y compared with just supporting TRIM, and don't work as well, and can't always get the job done.

By enabling TRIM, the SSD is forced to work twice as hard as there are now two separate element management systems running, one from the OS and one built into the device itself.

This is yet another completely nonsensical claim. It in no way increases the amount of work being done. All TRIM does on ANY SSD is basically shift when the process of wiping cells takes place. It does not and can not cause "thermal damage" to have TRIM enabled. If anything the reverse would be true as more work has to be done during extended writes if TRIM is not on. Instead of just writing, you're having to read, wipe, write, a three step process instead of a one step process if the OS and drive support TRIM.

Until Apple can implement an intelligent TRIM system — one that can respond to the SSD’s built in characteristics data and adjust its own timings to match, as Windows does

Windows does not do this. All Windows-or OS X-have to do is detect whether or not it's an SSD. That's it. It sees something supporting TRIM, it "turns on" support of the command so the command is issued when files get deleted. There is no responding to build in characteristics. There is no adjusting of timings. The OS does not know or care how the command is being carried out, only that the drive is carrying it out, exactly the same as how the OS does not know or care how a file is being written, just that it is.

The OS has to support the command, so you need Windows 7 on the Windows side (or newer versions of Linux on that side), but...it's just a command the OS passes to the drive.

— then the only safe, reliable non-factory SSD you can trust with Mac OS X is Intel’s X-25 series. Everything else dies after six to ten months’ regular use.

If they are, there's something wrong with the drive, or else OS X has some kind of bizarrely high rewriting going on compared with Windows NT and Linux, which I'd assume isn't the case.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2738/10

This was one of the earlier articles on what TRIM is, I think from right as all the pieces were coming together. Of course later articles could talk about it in practice, though there's not much to say-it works as advertised, pretty much keeping drive performance in a like new state.

EDIT: The point of the above is to say, if OS X is in a state where it has true TRIM support, as apparently it is, then there's no technical reason Apple can't just detect what type of drive is there, and if appropriate, turn on TRIM. They don't need to know anything about the drive save that it supports TRIM. That they aren't is almost certainly because they want to push people to their own drives.

50548
Aug 3, 2011, 02:29 PM
It is clear from many accounts that using TRIM Enabler on 3rd-party drives is HEAVILY IMPACTING SSD performance on Macs.

I've read several discussions on this, and the overall recommendation for the moment is to NOT use TRIM Enabler in Lion. especially since it changes OS X kext files without backing them up properly.

Wolfpup
Aug 3, 2011, 02:34 PM
It is clear from many accounts that using TRIM Enabler on 3rd-party drives is HEAVILY IMPACTING SSD performance on Macs.

I've read several discussions on this, and the overall recommendation for the moment is to NOT use TRIM Enabler in Lion. especially since it changes OS X kext files without backing them up properly.

Yeah, that sounds like a hack...and obviously replacing a system file with one from an old OS ain't a good thing!

Weaselboy
Aug 3, 2011, 02:38 PM
Thanks! I'll check out that thread...my purchase decision may hang on it LOL

EDIT: Darn, it looks like that program doesn't enable real TRIM support? Basically just lets you clear free space within the OS manually?

Better than nothing, at least.

You need to read little further in the hack thread. The hack does enable real TRIM function. Now wether you want to trust your data to this hack is another issue. :)

Again... I think everybody is making too much of this.

Wolfpup
Aug 3, 2011, 03:18 PM
You need to read little further in the hack thread. The hack does enable real TRIM function. Now wether you want to trust your data to this hack is another issue. :)

Again... I think everybody is making too much of this.

Okay, that's cool. But no...replacing system files is a bit too scary! :eek:

Weaselboy
Aug 3, 2011, 03:41 PM
Okay, that's cool. But no...replacing system files is a bit too scary! :eek:

I completely agree.