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hmmm
Aug 4, 2011, 12:03 AM
Is anyone else completely frustrated now that Apple has removed the "Save As" command from many of their applications (iWork, Preview etc)?

Thankfully there are work arounds, but if Apple thinks that having to go into the file menu, manually select "Duplicate" and then save the file is easier than selecting "Shift-Apple-S" then the company's recent success has obviously gone to their head.

So please join this poll and let me know whether I am alone in this thought, or whether Apple needs to take note.



Mightee
Aug 4, 2011, 12:04 AM
I haven't come up against it yet because I don't use iWork and barely use TextEdit, but I'm still with you.

NicoleRichie
Aug 4, 2011, 12:04 AM
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2nd.

iGrouch
Aug 4, 2011, 01:09 AM
3rd on that.

Indeed there are workarounds. I am moving to Lion soon but have been testing it on a spare drive. I have foreseen some instances in my own workflow where this is going to be a nuisance. The options are cumbersome, in the Apple apps where versions has already been implemented. Hopefully serious apps like Photoshop will never implement this paradigm.

Once again I am going to repeat my usual mantra. FEEDBACK! Send your feedback to Apple at:

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html

Spend some time, before you do so, to compose a cogent reason for bringing back Save As.....

If enough people do this they really should listen....Or else they're toast.

I just heard some Dutch bloke on the radio called Peter Sims. He has just published this book:

http://techcrunch.com/2011/04/18/little-bets-the-book/

Apparently, according to him HP spend very little on marketing research and work a lot with user feedback.

Amberfool
Aug 4, 2011, 01:11 AM
What I think you might not quite understand is the fact that this is not just some random change, it, along with many of the changes made in Lion are the first baby steps towards Apple's '10 year plan' for the OS.

Yes the new way of doing this is a fundamental change, and yes I think they could improve on it, by for instance not adding 'copy' to the title of the duplicate and instead allowing us to change the title ourselves. My main reason for Save As... was to save a file in a different format, and having to remove the word copy from the title is going to be an added annoyance for sure.

But it's not like you couldn't do everything you could do before, it's just being presented in a different way, and is only a few seconds difference.

hmmm
Aug 4, 2011, 01:27 AM
Hi iGrouch, I'll definitely use the feedback link, and responding to Amberfool, the whole issue here is that Apple have significantly impeded the user experience. How often do you open an email attachment and use the "Save As" command to file the document in a specific location, and how often do you want to save a new revision of say a keynote doc?

Making this very simple and straight forward command that is used dozens of times a days my million of Apple users incredible difficult, really doesn't make any sense.

From searching the Internet you can see that there are a lot of users out there who are having great difficulty with this exact topic. The work around is not intuitive, Apple have provide no or very little help in dealing with this issue, and honestly, this is a step backwards for Apple and no one wants to spend more time or effort having to conduct simple commands such as this.

I stand my ground on this.

xkmxkmxlmx
Aug 4, 2011, 02:15 AM
I don't know if I hate it yet as I have not had that much experience with it... YET. I am sure something will come up that will make me despise it like a lot of the new "features".

I am looking forward to iCloud, though. I want to see how it works with that. Who knows, it could turn out to be the best thing they have ever done.

But for now, I vote "bring it back".

kuwisdelu
Aug 4, 2011, 02:57 AM
I just want a way to create a duplicate directly as a new file type (e.g., re-saving a png to a jpg) without having to duplicate, and then save the new copy. With Versions, I can see it making sense if you're only dealing with a single file type. But at least give me a "Duplicate as..." item so I can skip the extra step.

Boo The Hamster
Aug 4, 2011, 02:59 AM
I'm not using Lion, and the whole 'autosave' issue is just one of the reasons, so I'm definitely in the 'bring it back and make autosave/versions a switch-offable user option' camp.

On a related note, for those who have used it, how would you code a web page in Textedit now? Previously, I would have written the html, and then saved as doc.html. Is there an option for this?

kuwisdelu
Aug 4, 2011, 03:02 AM
On a related note, for those who have used it, how would you code a web page in Textedit now? Previously, I would have written the html, and then saved as doc.html. Is there an option for this?

It can still work exactly how you're used to. When you save the first time, save it with .html. When you hit Cmd+S, it'll still save a new version; the only difference is you'll have the old versions, too, and it'll autosave as well.

Personally, I'm really looking forward to when autosave and versions get implemented in the apps I use. It's just Duplicate adds an extra step over Save as... for certain things.

paulsalter
Aug 4, 2011, 03:06 AM
I don't mind the new way of saving things, but would like to get the save as back

but please get rid of the auto saving of documents, this is driving me mad

turbotoes
Aug 4, 2011, 09:39 AM
I don't mind the new way of saving things, but would like to get the save as back

but please get rid of the auto saving of documents, this is driving me mad

Plus one for this

Amberfool
Aug 4, 2011, 11:27 AM
Hi iGrouch, I'll definitely use the feedback link, and responding to Amberfool, the whole issue here is that Apple have significantly impeded the user experience. How often do you open an email attachment and use the "Save As" command to file the document in a specific location, and how often do you want to save a new revision of say a keynote doc?

Making this very simple and straight forward command that is used dozens of times a days my million of Apple users incredible difficult, really doesn't make any sense.

From searching the Internet you can see that there are a lot of users out there who are having great difficulty with this exact topic. The work around is not intuitive, Apple have provide no or very little help in dealing with this issue, and honestly, this is a step backwards for Apple and no one wants to spend more time or effort having to conduct simple commands such as this.

I stand my ground on this.
With mail, you quick look to see the files, and then right click save, and save all.. which allows you to choose where you want to save the files. Maybe they could have made more of a big deal to help new users understand how to use the new method, but it really isn't as difficult as you make it out to be.

There are a lot of people on the internet complaining about many aspects of Lion, but like natural scrolling, you just get used to the new way of doing it. It's not intuitive, because you have been doing it differently for a very long time, give it a while and it will be just as intuitive and easy to understand as Save As... is to you now. ;)

chillvisio
Aug 4, 2011, 10:31 PM
"Apple's Vista" say what?

Skoal
Aug 4, 2011, 11:15 PM
There are a lot of people on the internet complaining about many aspects of Lion, but like natural scrolling, you just get used to the new way of doing it. It's not intuitive, because you have been doing it differently for a very long time, give it a while and it will be just as intuitive and easy to understand as Save As... is to you now. ;)

I understand what your saying but the question I have is: Why? There are many things I'm loving about Lion despite the bugs and the often appearing spinning beachball but I just don't see a useful reason to change something like 'save as'.

Perhaps Apple is looking down the road to something in the works that will make this a "duh" moment for me (and others) but at this moment it just seems like they are changing things simply to....well, change them! It smacks the face of the idea that Apple stuff is intuitive and simple to use.

chillvisio
Aug 4, 2011, 11:36 PM
it just seems like they are changing things simply
because they can

Amberfool
Aug 5, 2011, 12:51 AM
I understand what your saying but the question I have is: Why? There are many things I'm loving about Lion despite the bugs and the often appearing spinning beachball but I just don't see a useful reason to change something like 'save as'.

Perhaps Apple is looking down the road to something in the works that will make this a "duh" moment for me (and others) but at this moment it just seems like they are changing things simply to....well, change them! It smacks the face of the idea that Apple stuff is intuitive and simple to use.

Personally stuff like Autosave, Resume and Versions sounds exactly like the first step in Apple's new direction for the OS, as I said in my original post in this thread. It's a shift in the user's perception more then anything else, and while I get that it does take a couple of more seconds to do, I think down the line it will make more sense. The alternative is, is that Apple is changing things in the OS just for the sake of change, which really doesn't sound like Apple to me. ;)

mrklaw
Aug 5, 2011, 03:01 AM
I like the idea of autosave - I think office apps have been doing it for a while?

But it works best when you are working on one document and making changes to that document. One thing I do a lot is have a template letter and then make minor changes and save it as another document. I'm a little concerned that with this new way of doing things, I'll have to remember to 'save as' (or duplicate, whatever), *before* doing anything to the template, otherwise it can be saved into the template document. It gives me less flexibility to choose my own workflow.

sidewinder
Aug 5, 2011, 03:32 AM
I like the idea of autosave - I think office apps have been doing it for a while?

But it works best when you are working on one document and making changes to that document. One thing I do a lot is have a template letter and then make minor changes and save it as another document. I'm a little concerned that with this new way of doing things, I'll have to remember to 'save as' (or duplicate, whatever), *before* doing anything to the template, otherwise it can be saved into the template document. It gives me less flexibility to choose my own workflow.

No. Make your template and lock it. If you try to edit the file, your will get a dialog presenting you with options to "Unlock", "Cancel", or "Duplicate".

Scott

MartiNZ
Aug 5, 2011, 06:57 AM
I like the idea of autosave - I think office apps have been doing it for a while?

But it works best when you are working on one document and making changes to that document. One thing I do a lot is have a template letter and then make minor changes and save it as another document. I'm a little concerned that with this new way of doing things, I'll have to remember to 'save as' (or duplicate, whatever), *before* doing anything to the template, otherwise it can be saved into the template document. It gives me less flexibility to choose my own workflow.

Exactly. Office apps have been doing auto-recover saves for a while, which are quite different and far less destructive - they only hide away in case of a crash or similar, they don't constantly replace the file you're working with no questions asked, which is the new Lion way. Duplicating beforehand is indeed the new safe approach, but it's a pretty weird one IMO.

mac1984user
Aug 5, 2011, 07:29 AM
I'm in agreement with all those who support bringing back 'Save As', or at least making 'Duplicate' a bit more sensible. I've posted this message on the Apple feedback website:

Apple must have had its reasons for changing up the save system within documents. Versions are pretty cool things to have access to, but in some ways things have been complicated beyond reason with the new save process. Sometimes, we need to make quick, multiple versions of documents that have only slight variations (think of creating student awards certificates where only the name changes). 'Save As' is a much better approach, because you can quickly make a second copy with that small change and continue forward. There is something clunky about the new 'Duplicate' procedure and I find myself spending way more time opening a new duplicate, then having to 'Save' it (which is 'Save As' anyway). There's an added, unnecessary step that makes little sense. The problem is compounded by the fact that there is no hotkey combo for 'Duplicate' as there exists for 'Save As' (in MS Word, it's SHIFT-COMMAND-S). If Apple decides not to bring back 'Save As', at least give us the key combo for 'Duplicate'. It will save a lot of headache and bring back a modicum of efficiency.

tkermit
Aug 5, 2011, 09:26 AM
Make your template and lock it. If you try to edit the file, your will get a dialog presenting you with options to "Unlock", "Cancel", or "Duplicate".

Exactly. While it would be nice for Apple to offer us a keyboard shortcut for the Duplicate function, locking the original document achieves almost the same thing. Pressing any key and then 'Enter' gives you almost the same workflow as before, only that you don't run the risk of ruining your template document.

There are definitely still some details Apple will have to improve on though. For example, at least in Textedit, when you start typing at some cursor position in a locked document and after being prompted and agreeing to duplicate the document, the cursor position is reset to the beginning of the document, even though it is highly probable that the user would want to continue editing at that same position he was on before.

Amberfool
Aug 5, 2011, 12:06 PM
I like the idea of autosave - I think office apps have been doing it for a while?

But it works best when you are working on one document and making changes to that document. One thing I do a lot is have a template letter and then make minor changes and save it as another document. I'm a little concerned that with this new way of doing things, I'll have to remember to 'save as' (or duplicate, whatever), *before* doing anything to the template, otherwise it can be saved into the template document. It gives me less flexibility to choose my own workflow.

Well there is the revert to last opened option from the arrow key in the title bar, which should help you out in that case. So either duplicate and close the original, or duplicate then revert to saved.

robgendreau
Aug 5, 2011, 05:45 PM
Some of the complaints here stem from the fact that it takes some getting used to. But check with a new user; some of them find the new system more intuitive.

I've seen many folks who want to export get flummoxed by a File menu that doesn't include export, but only save as..., when I explicitly instructed them to export in Word format, for example. Or when they really want to save a copy but remain focused in the original document rather than find themselves in a new one.

Actually think the menus make more sense; each does what it says. The duplicate is cool because although the focus goes to it, the original is right there, rather than disappearing. So it's easy to have several amended documents right there rather than have to go back and re-open them. THAT was a big waste of time for me.

So it sorta depends on your workflow, but I think it's for the better.

Rob

*LTD*
Aug 5, 2011, 06:34 PM
It all depends on what the market at large thinks.

MacRumors polls are cool and all, but they're an inaccurate sampling of the market. And I'm being kind here. ;)

singhjeet29
Aug 5, 2011, 07:32 PM
Although I think Apple's approach is a step in the right direction, so long as a file system is intact; I may need to keep files in multiple different locations and Save As is an integral part of that process.

The new approach is less streamlined and is an extra step (or two) in the process.

Versions, Duplication should still remain, but Save As can co-exist with them.

kuwisdelu
Aug 6, 2011, 01:34 AM
While I do like the idea of "Duplicate," there are definitely some major problems it can impose for some of us.

For example, if you have a very large document, and need to duplicate it, this will require using more than double the memory of the original document, which hangs the app if you're already choked on memory, where before you could have just done "save as".

I just had a 400 MB .txt file (I'm a statistician — I have some big datasets) open in TextEdit to test this out, on the off-chance Apple had implemented some nifty only-track-delta-changes-until-the-duplicate-is-saved magic. Something I need to do a lot for reading in data is to replace the Windows line breaks with true Unix line breaks, which simply opening and re-saving a plain text file in TextEdit will generally accomplish for me. However, I like keeping the original around for redundancy and safety, so I usually "save as". So I tried doing a "Duplicate" on this 400 MB .txt file and get a beach ball as TextEdit climbs from 400 MB memory to 1.3 GB, as dramatic paging happens, before finally going back down to 900 MB a minute or so later.

So if you're dealing with very large files, where you could have used "Save as" before, rather than Duplicate, you better remember to copy-paste the file in Finder instead.

g-boac
Aug 6, 2011, 10:43 AM
Is anyone else completely frustrated now that Apple has removed the "Save As" command from many of their applications (iWork, Preview etc)?

Thankfully there are work arounds, but if Apple thinks that having to go into the file menu, manually select "Duplicate" and then save the file is easier than selecting "Shift-Apple-S" then the company's recent success has obviously gone to their head.

So please join this poll and let me know whether I am alone in this thought, or whether Apple needs to take note.
Thanks for starting this thread - I couldn't agree more, and feedback sent.

Gemütlichkeit
Aug 6, 2011, 10:52 AM
"Apple's Vista" say what?

adapt to change or become redundant.

reputationZed
Aug 6, 2011, 12:16 PM
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I don't mind the new way of saving things, but would like to get the save as back

but please get rid of the auto saving of documents, this is driving me mad

What is it about autosaves that you dislike? I'm not challenging the fact you don't like it but saying "it's driving me mad" doesn't give much insight into why you don't like it.

Gemütlichkeit
Aug 6, 2011, 01:18 PM
You really just need to change the way you think about documents and spreadsheets.

instead of having multiple versions like before, you now have 1 version that you can save state as many times as you want.

if there's one "base" vernon you want to save, go ahead and save it there, then continue to work and you can always revert back to that base version in the in app time machine.

it's the exact same way as before, you're just now dealing with 1 document instead of multiple ones. This new one is actually better.

iThinkergoiMac
Aug 6, 2011, 04:57 PM
It can still work exactly how you're used to. When you save the first time, save it with .html. When you hit Cmd+S, it'll still save a new version; the only difference is you'll have the old versions, too, and it'll autosave as well.

Yes. Save As hasn't gone away, it's called "Save a Version" now. Other than the change of name it's the exact same thing.

EDIT: Apparently I completely misunderstood what that function does. The Duplicate command works, as others have mentioned. I wonder how this will turn out for applications like Photoshop where "Save As..." is used to convert filetypes.

Exactly. Office apps have been doing auto-recover saves for a while, which are quite different and far less destructive - they only hide away in case of a crash or similar, they don't constantly replace the file you're working with no questions asked, which is the new Lion way. Duplicating beforehand is indeed the new safe approach, but it's a pretty weird one IMO.

Lion DOESN'T just blindly save over all your previous changes. Every time it auto-saves it creates a version. So if you make a change you don't like, roll back to a previous version.

kuwisdelu
Aug 6, 2011, 05:00 PM
Yes. Save As hasn't gone away, it's called "Save a Version" now. Other than the change of name it's the exact same thing.

No, "Save a version" replaces save. It doesn't create a new file, just a new version. "Duplicate" replaces "Save as."

iThinkergoiMac
Aug 6, 2011, 05:01 PM
No, "Save a version" replaces save. It doesn't create a new file, just a new version. "Duplicate" replaces "Save as."

You're right, as I realized (see my edit above).

Amberfool
Aug 6, 2011, 06:13 PM
Yes. Save As hasn't gone away, it's called "Save a Version" now. Other than the change of name it's the exact same thing.

EDIT: Apparently I completely misunderstood what that function does. The Duplicate command works, as others have mentioned. I wonder how this will turn out for applications like Photoshop where "Save As..." is used to convert filetypes.

When you duplicate it doesn't do the same as duplicating a file in finder. What it does, is create a new document, copy and paste over everything from the old document and calls it 'old document' copy. Once you duplicate, press Command + S and your familiar save menu appears, from which you can edit the document name, and change the file type, just like with any unsaved document. :)

AnneStuarto238
Aug 6, 2011, 10:46 PM
But there is no shortcut/hotkey for duplicate :(

paulsalter
Aug 7, 2011, 03:19 AM
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What is it about autosaves that you dislike? I'm not challenging the fact you don't like it but saying "it's driving me mad" doesn't give much insight into why you don't like it.

Main reason, If I am trying something out in Preview (especially if its a photo), I never want the changes I make saved as this screws up Aperture/Lightroom as they don't like photos edited externally

I could give up using Preview for things like this, but its quick and easy to try something

Any other document I am working on, I like to have control over when I save it, many times I will not want to save what I am doing

Saving a Document is one of the basics of using a computer, IMO teaching people not to worry about saving is giving them a bad habit (at the moment) as not all software/os's support this

digitalministry
Aug 10, 2011, 09:26 AM
Save As is vital to my working together in our job-share: we both use Macs, and until now it has been straightforward to 'save as' a file onto the other person's desktop. The lack of save as makes collaborative working very much more fiddly. This is NOT an improvement!:mad:

sidewinder
Aug 10, 2011, 11:17 AM
Save As is vital to my working together in our job-share: we both use Macs, and until now it has been straightforward to 'save as' a file onto the other person's desktop. The lack of save as makes collaborative working very much more fiddly. This is NOT an improvement!:mad:

Come on....

Use "Duplicate" then use "Save..." to save it wherever you want.

This is actually better because when you use "Save As..." your copy is still open.

Scott

vitzr
Aug 10, 2011, 11:25 AM
Steve says it's the "Post PC Era" time to get used to Macs operating like Pads and Phones.

It's all part of Apples strategy to bring in new buyers, encourage users to rely on Apple to think for them, and vacuum more wallets :)

digitalministry
Aug 14, 2011, 02:03 AM
The Snow Leopard version of Quick time enabled you to trim and immediately save trimmed movie clips. Lacking Save as means that you have to rely on Export, you also have to re-enter the (new) name of the file, and the whole operation takes MANY TIMES as long. How can this be an improvement?

MacRum2011
Aug 14, 2011, 02:08 AM
I just want the "save' to be just like it was on SL - simple.

bocomo
Aug 14, 2011, 09:55 PM
When you duplicate it doesn't do the same as duplicating a file in finder. What it does, is create a new document, copy and paste over everything from the old document and calls it 'old document' copy. Once you duplicate, press Command + S and your familiar save menu appears, from which you can edit the document name, and change the file type, just like with any unsaved document. :)

the problem with that is that i now have two docs open, and also if i needed to do more than one Save As, i have to duplicate AGAIN and Save -- the first duplicate won't let me

really cumbersome

----------

main reason, if i am trying something out in preview (especially if its a photo), i never want the changes i make saved as this screws up aperture/lightroom as they don't like photos edited externally

i could give up using preview for things like this, but its quick and easy to try something

any other document i am working on, i like to have control over when i save it, many times i will not want to save what i am doing

saving a document is one of the basics of using a computer, imo teaching people not to worry about saving is giving them a bad habit (at the moment) as not all software/os's support this

+1

----------

Come on....

Use "Duplicate" then use "Save..." to save it wherever you want.

This is actually better because when you use "Save As..." your copy is still open.

Scott

how is that better?

the Duplicate is still open too

sidewinder
Aug 14, 2011, 10:10 PM
Come on....

Use "Duplicate" then use "Save..." to save it wherever you want.

This is actually better because when you use "Save As..." your copy is still open.

Scott



how is that better?

the Duplicate is still open too

It is better in the context of digitalministry's usage. Which, may be different than yours.

Some of you folks just can't handle change. Mac OS X 10.7 has changed how I work for the better. I looked at the new features and found ways to make them work for me. I have no desire to go back to 10.6.

Scott

Kachadurian
Aug 15, 2011, 07:42 PM
Some of you folks just can't handle change. Mac OS X 10.7 has changed how I work for the better. I looked at the new features and found ways to make them work for me. I have no desire to go back to 10.6.

Scott

Or, some of you don't understand the workflow of others. Versions are fine if you work alone on one computer. Or if you are comfortable with documents that are system dependent. It's the iPhoto model which is a disaster after a while and makes getting files out and archiving a nightmare.

If I want different versions, I will save them. This is the new Apple model: make things for stupid people who don't know enough to save their work. It's a good short term strategy, but I'm not sure it's good in the long run.

Tom

scottsjack
Aug 15, 2011, 07:57 PM
Some of you folks just can't handle change. Mac OS X 10.7 has changed how I work for the better. I looked at the new features and found ways to make them work for me. Scott

Ok, you look for ways to work the way Apple and Steve want to work. I'll look for ways to make a computer work the way I want to work. To each his own path. For me Snow Leopard works great and will for a long time.

sidewinder
Aug 15, 2011, 08:10 PM
Ok, you look for ways to work the way Apple and Steve want to work. I'll look for ways to make a computer work the way I want to work. To each his own path. For me Snow Leopard works great and will for a long time.

If we all thought like you we would still be using some version of MS-DOS and would not have the superior GUIs we have today.

S-

Ashka
Aug 15, 2011, 08:22 PM
Not really a problem just a different way of working.

Set a short cut for Duplicate in System Prefs > Keyboard > Application Shortcut > Duplicate.. I've set command shift D.. Seems to work OK.

Just move the curser to the top of the window to the right of the name and use the drop down to access Lock, duplicate, revert to last saved or browse all versions.
Once you access browse all version you can also delete the versions you no longer want.

I also like having the last 10 files available from the dock icon with click hold. Mine is set to 10 recent yours may differ.

Can't ever get away from Death, Taxes or Change.. best to just work with it. :)

hmmm
Aug 19, 2011, 08:14 AM
Well there're no point asking the Windows lot:)

It all depends on what the market at large thinks.

MacRumors polls are cool and all, but they're an inaccurate sampling of the market. And I'm being kind here. ;)

handel30
Aug 20, 2011, 02:18 AM
Well, I had my first disappointing experience with auto save. Last night I closed a document. When I opened it today, the last words were missing. I have read that Lion saves every five minutes. Apparently if you close a document during those final five minutes before the document is saved, you lose your work. Now losing five minutes of work isn't as bad as losing half an hour of it by forgetting to save. But is there a way to get around this five minute window where everything you type is lost?

tkermit
Aug 20, 2011, 03:18 AM
is there a way to get around this five minute window where everything you type is lost?

Lion should definitely be saving your document when you close it. If it didn't, then you encountered a serious bug.

ozzywood
Aug 21, 2011, 03:04 AM
When I bought a HP (Windows) laptop with Vista pre-installed, the manufacturer shipped a downgrade disk (1st class, overnight from the US, free of cost) so I could go back to XP.

My experience with Lion over the past month has made me crave the same service.

I'm pretty angry over all the wasted time because of bugs and most of all: the missing "Save As".

About this angry: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZksFkF4S4qI

maril1111
Aug 21, 2011, 03:35 AM
I want it back, the new one is 100% less efficient

Tutorer
Aug 21, 2011, 07:22 AM
To the people that want a keyboard shortcut to duplicate files from inside applications - you can configure that yourself with the control panel Keyboard. See attached screenshot for an example.

To complement this information - the keyboard shortcut to choose "Don't Save" in a save dialog is command-backspace. You may want to use that with duplicated documents you don't want to save, since you get presented with such a dialog when closing them.