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jusacruiser
Aug 4, 2011, 05:17 PM
I did a search and could not find a thread with this topic. Please forgive me if it turns out to be a duplicate post.

I can't decide whether to upgrade to Lion or not.

My question is this.....Are most people liking Lion? Or are they sticking with Snow Leopard?

Or maybe there are some people who have switched to Lion and wished they could go back to Snow Leopard.

Please weigh in and give me your evaluation of Lion vs. Snow Leopard.

:confused:



chaosbunny
Aug 4, 2011, 05:28 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_5 like Mac OS X; de-de) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8L1 Safari/6533.18.5)

Snow Leopard, for now. Wait for 10.7.3 or something and upgrade with ease, once first version bugs and problems with 3rd party software are patched. Same rule for all OS updates.

KPOM
Aug 4, 2011, 05:29 PM
Opinions are pretty strong on both sides right now. I ran a poll today that showed about 75% of responders liked Lion (consistent with other polls here), but you'll also see a lot of threads from people with complaints.

My advice is that if Snow Leopard is working fine for you now, hold off at least until 10.7.1 comes out and/or iCloud is available (if you intend to use iCloud). Lion has a lot of good features, but the first release has a lot of bugs, probably more so than any first OS X release since perhaps OS X 10.0 itself.

Also, if you have any old PowerPC applications, unless they have Intel equivalents, you probably should stick with Snow Leopard since they won't run in Lion.

tigres
Aug 4, 2011, 06:19 PM
In its current stage, Lion sucks-IMO.

Nixir
Aug 4, 2011, 06:21 PM
Hands down Snow Leopard

vix2000
Aug 4, 2011, 06:23 PM
I'm struggling with lions unreliability. If you rely on wifi stick with snow leopard.

Estra
Aug 4, 2011, 06:31 PM
I'm struggling with lions unreliability. If you rely on wifi stick with snow leopard.

Are you having trouble with a macbook regarding wifi issues? Do you have an idea if there are similar issues with the iMac/ it's as worse?

Steve's Barber
Aug 4, 2011, 06:36 PM
I did a search and could not find a thread with this topic.

You're kidding, right? :D

Please weigh in and give me your evaluation of Lion vs. Snow Leopard.

That's like asking what someone's favorite color is. :confused:

The Lion vs. Snow Leopard debate will only be resolved when Apple stops supporting one of 'em. :)

WSR
Aug 4, 2011, 06:59 PM
From what I've read in these forums, since I'm still using Snow Leopard, this is what I've so far concluded.

Don't update to Lion if:
#1 You use Spaces and Expose extensively. You'll find Mission Control to be a downgrade.
#2 You have a 2nd monitor and often you use it to do other things in 1 monitor while having an app in full-screen mode in the other. Lion's full-screen mode makes multiple monitors useless.
#3 You frequently use the "Save As..." option. Lion doesn't have it.

I'm planning on waiting for Apple to fix these bugs before I update. That is assuming I don't hear about others.

xkmxkmxlmx
Aug 4, 2011, 07:22 PM
You're kidding, right? :D

The Lion vs. Snow Leopard debate will only be resolved when Apple stops supporting one of 'em. :)

Yes and no. While many are excited to upgrade the second it is released, and many do not experience the bugs, at this point in time, just like with ANY OS upgrade, it is safer to stay with the previous version. At least until the .1 or .2 update.

Of course Lion is usable, and has some nice features, so if you really want to try them, go for it.

Also, if you've never tried SL, then just go Lion. You won't know what you're missing ;)

vix2000
Aug 4, 2011, 08:34 PM
I am using an 11" macbook air. Now the link station is recognised the wifi issue is the main problem. It appears it is widespread looking at the hits if you search for it. My battery life, like others, has reduced but I can live with that. I do like using Lion but the wifi problem is more than a little inconvenience to be honest.

geeker17
Aug 4, 2011, 09:34 PM
Do not upgrade to Lion. It could be one of Apple biggest failures to date. It's performance is pathetic at best. What a mistake.

RWil85
Aug 4, 2011, 09:39 PM
Do not upgrade to Lion. It could be one of Apple biggest failures to date. It's performance is pathetic at best. What a mistake.

I don't know how people can say this..are you running recommended hardware/+ some? It's running flawlessly on the MBP in my sig..

It'd be one thing to say it's not for you - it's another to just say it doesn't perform well.

bill-p
Aug 4, 2011, 09:41 PM
Snow Leopard definitely.

I can list out what Lion did wrong all day. At 80WPM non-stop.

dmccloud
Aug 4, 2011, 09:53 PM
The only WiFi network I have issues with using Lion is at home, and I have a spare ethernet cable connected to the router that I just plug in to get online. Trying to mix fullscreen mode with multiple monitors is a bit of a pain, but to me it's not a deal breaker as far as using Lion is concerned. As far as performance goes, I haven't seen any drops in performance after moving to Lion. In fact, some of my newer apps seem to run a bit faster (removing Rosetta might play a role in the faster apps).

That being said, this is still a zero-point release, so there are still some improvements to be made both from Apple's end and the third-party developers' side of things. Most of the software I'm using is Intel-only (only 2-3 apps are universal binaries), so the lack of Rosetta has not affected me at all. But ultimately whether to stick with Snow Leopard or make the move to Lion is a matter of personal preference.

jusacruiser
Aug 5, 2011, 01:51 AM
Do not upgrade to Lion. It could be one of Apple biggest failures to date. It's performance is pathetic at best. What a mistake.

Oh no! :eek: Is Lion the "New Coke"?? Maybe they should revert back to Snow Leopard and call it "Snow Leopard Classic!"

You're kidding, right? :D


Well, now that Mroogle has gotten the boot, it is much harder to find stuff.

But I do like your sense of humor! I am giving you a thumbs up.

:)

saving107
Aug 5, 2011, 02:03 AM
Do not upgrade to Lion. It could be one of Apple biggest failures to date. It's performance is pathetic at best. What a mistake.

I've had zero issues since I upgraded from Snow Leopard (regular upgrade, no clean install) and I like Lion, for me it has been a lot more stable than Snow Leopard 10.6.0 was.

Late 2007 iMac (Aluminum)
Late 2008 MacBook Pro (Aluminum)

mark28
Aug 5, 2011, 02:17 AM
How can people like a Beta OS is beyond me :confused:

The features are nice, but you can't depend on Lion being your OS yet.

So if you like the updated GUI and don't care how good the OS runs, go use Lion I guess like a lot of people here.

tblrsa
Aug 5, 2011, 02:34 AM
Here is my experience with Lion so far:

- Encryption of my Time Machine Drive as well as the system drive went smooth with FileVault 2. Lion preserved my old Time Machine Backup Data while encrypting the drive, very nice.

- No Kernel Panics as of yet

- External Monitor working fine, although I sometimes have to replug the DVI Cable several times for it to recognize the monitor.

- Safari 5.1 is eating a whole lot of more memory as the version used on Snow Leopard, still using it though. Hope Apple provides a fix.

- Enjoying the new Mail, no issues with iCal and MobileMe. Syncing calendar events without problems.

- No issues with Wifi, although I understand some people do have issues.

- Sometimes I´m getting a weird graphic glitch (yellow or red boxed over the screen) in the browser. Happened with both Safari and Google Chrome.

- Experienced bad Battery Life on Lion -> Can be fixed by resetting SMC and recalibrating battery

Running Lion on the system you find in my signature. Only ran an update from Snow Leopard, no fresh install.

Boo The Hamster
Aug 5, 2011, 05:20 AM
Went from Snow Leopard to Lion on the day of release.
I lasted four days before reverting back to SL.

To be fair, I didn't encounter any of the (many) reported bugs in Lion - it worked just fine. However, the way that it worked was the issue for me.
You can find many, many other threads detailing people's disappointments and irritations with Lion, but in no particular order, some of mine were:

Colour scheme : Aqua has become a dull grey, which looks boring, and makes active / non-functioning tabs difficult to discriminate between. Not the end of the world, but a step back in my view.

Autosave / versioning : A real love it / hate it facility. Depends whether you want control over your software, or whether you want to relinquish it to the machine. Me, I hate it. Plus there are question marks over the performance impact of backups running in the background on large files, and how much disk space is being used for these backups.

Spaces vs Mission control : I wasn't a heavy spaces user, but if you are, check out the many threads regarding this issue. It appears to be a backward step.

Too many gimmicks : Launchpad, the screen animations, making the traffic lights so small as to be impractical to use, the iCal appearance. None of them dealbreakers, but they all ratchet up the annoyance factor a few clicks.

It's unlikely that iCloud will work with SL (maybe someone else can confirm or deny - I'm not 100% sure), but given that I like control over where my data is, I wouldn't use it, so that's no great loss to me. It might, however, be important to you.

I made sure I had an up-to-date bootable backup of SL (courtesy of SuperDuper!), and it's probably the most useful backup I've ever taken! I might take another look at Lion in a few versions time, but for me, the biggest impact it's had is to stop me buying the Macbook Pro that I've been speccing out for the last few weeks. I'll make my SL-running Macbook last as long as possible.


But definitely have a play with Lion before you upgrade, just to get a feel for it. You might love it, or it might save you a couple of hours restoring your old system...

stefan1975
Aug 5, 2011, 06:46 AM
I don't know how people can say this..are you running recommended hardware/+ some? It's running flawlessly on the MBP in my sig..

It'd be one thing to say it's not for you - it's another to just say it doesn't perform well.

lion is as slow as a turtle on my 2010 mbp 15" 2.4 i5 with 8gb crucial and an intel 320 SSD. I kinda think that qualifies as >recommended hardware.

SL is soooooooo much faster then lion it's pathetic. Lion eats RAM like it were antilopes too. SL ran better with the stock 4gb RAM then lion does on the new 8gb.

Also wifi reception is mediocre at best and there seems to be a major problem with webkit browsers. Safari and Chrome cause my mbp to freeze at least once a day. I can still move the mouse but am unable to start or close any programs at that point, forcing me to hard reset my mbp. this seems to be a common problem.

so @OP hands down SL every day of the week and twice on sunday. the only new stuff in lion are new graphical trinkets you won't be missing out on anyway, SL runs the same kernel and thus the same software lion does, only faster and more stable.

just my 2c. Stefan

jusacruiser
Aug 5, 2011, 11:30 AM
lion is as slow as a turtle on my 2010 mbp 15" 2.4 i5 with 8gb crucial and an intel 320 SSD. I kinda think that qualifies as >recommended hardware.

SL is soooooooo much faster then lion it's pathetic. Lion eats RAM like it were antilopes too. SL ran better with the stock 4gb RAM then lion does on the new 8gb.

Also wifi reception is mediocre at best and there seems to be a major problem with webkit browsers. Safari and Chrome cause my mbp to freeze at least once a day. I can still move the mouse but am unable to start or close any programs at that point, forcing me to hard reset my mbp. this seems to be a common problem.

so @OP hands down SL every day of the week and twice on sunday. the only new stuff in lion are new graphical trinkets you won't be missing out on anyway, SL runs the same kernel and thus the same software lion does, only faster and more stable.

just my 2c. Stefan

So are you saying that you like Snow Leopard better? :rolleyes:

kirky29
Aug 5, 2011, 11:41 AM
For me it's Lion.

Lion runs a lot faster than Snow Leopard on both my current 2011 MBP & my old 2009 MBP.

:)

jusacruiser
Aug 5, 2011, 02:00 PM
For me it's Lion.

Lion runs a lot faster than Snow Leopard on both my current 2011 MBP & my old 2009 MBP.

:)

Lion's better?? Going against the grain baby!!

jbyun04
Aug 5, 2011, 02:19 PM
I'd have to say Lion...though I'm getting annoyed at how much Chrome, Firefox, PS, DW and ID are crashing.

fat jez
Aug 5, 2011, 02:21 PM
I like the new Mail interface, so much so that it has replaced Thunderbird on my own MacBook Pro as my client of choice.
The gestures I'm getting used to and are about the one thing that is stopping me going back to Snow Leopard.
Versions I think is a great idea.

The whole app resume thing, I hate. I turned it off.
Reopen windows after restart. I REALLY want to turn that off.
Auto-save I think is a terrible one, especially if you open a doc and inadvertently change something without realising. I'd go as far as to say it's the one thing that is pushing me towards going back to Snow Leopard. You can see somebody in Apple thought it was a bad idea when you look at the description under the Options button in Time Machine: "Lock Documents after last edit. Prevents accidental changes in applications that support Auto Save." That whole description tells you why it's a bad idea.

Anyway, just my tuppence worth.

jusacruiser
Aug 5, 2011, 02:37 PM
I'd have to say Lion...though I'm getting annoyed at how much Chrome, Firefox, PS, DW and ID are crashing.

Just use Safari then in the meantime until Apple works out all bugs.

MacGurl111
Aug 5, 2011, 02:42 PM
The battery on my Mac Pro 2010 is depleted in a four hours. I used to be able to use it for 9 hours with no issue... settings are still the same.

zorinlynx
Aug 5, 2011, 02:44 PM
I can't think of any good reasons to upgrade.

I felt much the same when Snow Leopard came out; didn't upgrade until .2 or .3 when most of the bugs had been worked out.

Also Apple got a few things wrong, like full screen support with multiple monitors, eliminating "Save as" and Mission control. The sad thing is I doubt these will be fixed as Apple hasn't been one to make major changes in the OS interface in maintenance updates. :P

So we may eventually get stuck with Lion's problems as we upgrade to newer hardware that can't run Snow Leopard, or need software that requires Lion's APIs. Sigh.

MacGurl111
Aug 5, 2011, 02:45 PM
Here is my experience with Lion so far:



- Experienced bad Battery Life on Lion -> Can be fixed by resetting SMC and recalibrating battery


I'm going to try this and update on how it goes!

Steve's Barber
Aug 5, 2011, 02:56 PM
Oh no! :eek: Is Lion the "New Coke"?? Maybe they should revert back to Snow Leopard and call it "Snow Leopard Classic!"

One can hope. :rolleyes:

But alas... I fear iLion is here to stay. Apple is weening us off the desktop metaphor. In 4 years it will all be a single OS.

There's always bootcamp and Windows 8. :D

SerrQ
Aug 5, 2011, 08:31 PM
I'd say Lion because of the full screen apps. Also, I use WiFi a lot but I haven't noticed the issue, my wifi is working as good as SL. But mission control is pretty annoying tho, prefer the old Exposé.

KlytusLord
Aug 6, 2011, 10:30 AM
I am staying with Snow Leopard, so much so that when I finally get my MBA for my birthday I will be getting a previous generation one, since it seems I can not downgrade a new one.

For my tastes, my decision has nothing to do with bugs, but with features. I do not like inconsistent UI elements, so iCal and Contacts immediately got on my nerves. I know there is a skin crack, but it's not a perfect solution.

I am not a fan of software making decisions for me, so the new versioning system for file management is not for me.

Some of the features, while "neat" are, for me, useless. There is the classic response of "you don't have to use them" but this is not a reason to upgrade either. Launchpad and Airdrop fall into this category.

Mail was the only application I wish I could have in SL. The improvements there are quite good and if I could have purchased just the mail app for $30, I would have done so without complaint.

To me, Lion does everything power users do not want, which is to take control of your machine and protecting you from yourself, so I don't really see much possibility that future bug fixes will change my mind, since that is not my problem.

Zygon Gambit
Aug 6, 2011, 11:40 AM
Normally I'm a fairly early adopter, but after trying Lion I went back to SL.

Things I didn't like were:
1) The loss of Spaces
2) The problem running a MacBook Pro with the lid open, but only using a second screen, and not the laptop screen,
3) The Screen backgrounds resetting constantly on the Spaces replacement
4) The battery level being around half what it was on SL.

When some of the above issues are fixed (I don't expect Spaces will ever return, though), then I might go there again. But not for a while.

uaecasher
Aug 6, 2011, 11:48 AM
Lion is working just fine for me :)

ucstudent
Aug 6, 2011, 08:34 PM
I honestly have to say (on my Intel 17'' Mac iCore7) that I am not at all impressed with Lion - my system slowed right down, several crashes a day, trouble with my external drive being put to sleep and not being able to wake up once accessed (not a problem on my snow leopard machine); overall very very poor performance; it feels like a windows machine honestly before windows 7, which is more stable than Lion I am sad to say. Apple needs to work on a service pack/update right away...please; for now, I am re-installing snow leopard!

Taz Mangus
Aug 7, 2011, 12:02 AM
Are you having trouble with a macbook regarding wifi issues? Do you have an idea if there are similar issues with the iMac/ it's as worse?

I am using Lion on a 2011 27" iMac and a 2009 17" MacBook Pro. I have found no WiFi issues with either using Lion. In fact, the iMac that is running Lion now has faster WiFi access (162Mb/s) vs. when I was using Snow Leopard on it (108Mb/s).

baddj
Aug 7, 2011, 11:13 PM
I was on lion but something went wrong and had to format well i did not have the net at the time and to use the recovery HD to reinstall Lion you need to internet (that's a fail for a recovery HD).

So i had to install SL. i am going to stay on SL until at least 10.7.3

Michael383
Aug 8, 2011, 12:20 AM
I have Lion installed on my iMac and MBP. Except for slower boot times and lower battery life on my MBP my experience has been fine.

handel30
Aug 8, 2011, 02:54 AM
Colour scheme : Aqua has become a dull grey, which looks boring, and makes active / non-functioning tabs difficult to discriminate between. Not the end of the world, but a step back in my view.

Too many gimmicks : Launchpad, the screen animations, making the traffic lights so small as to be impractical to use

Grey is way less distracting than aqua. Sure SL is more colorful, but a colorful interface attracts too much attention. I missed the color at first, but after using Lion for a few weeks I find it to be superior. It was a great move to make the interface more "invisible," washed-out looking compared to SL. I find it much easier now to focus on the content inside the window. Same with the traffic lights. They are better now because they are less distracting. The SL traffic lights are bigger and brighter. I wouldn't mind an aqua interface as long as it recedes into the background.

mortenandersen
Aug 8, 2011, 03:56 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_5 like Mac OS X; de-de) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8L1 Safari/6533.18.5)

Snow Leopard, for now. Wait for 10.7.3 or something and upgrade with ease, once first version bugs and problems with 3rd party software are patched. Same rule for all OS updates.

Perhaps an impossible question to answer, but does anyone have a clue about when this version or another more mature version of Lion will be available, based on earlier experience?

mortenandersen
Aug 8, 2011, 04:15 AM
From what I've read in these forums, since I'm still using Snow Leopard, this is what I've so far concluded.

Don't update to Lion if:
#1 You use Spaces and Expose extensively. You'll find Mission Control to be a downgrade.
#2 You have a 2nd monitor and often you use it to do other things in 1 monitor while having an app in full-screen mode in the other. Lion's full-screen mode makes multiple monitors useless.
#3 You frequently use the "Save As..." option. Lion doesn't have it.

I'm planning on waiting for Apple to fix these bugs before I update. That is assuming I don't hear about others.

Sorry if I am completely off the point here (due to lack of knowledge). But does this mean that in Word 2011 with Lion OS the "Save as..." option for saving documents is NOT THERE?!?!

Please correct me or inform me!

jusacruiser
Aug 13, 2011, 10:07 PM
Good news everybody!

Mac World gave Lion a favorable review!

For those of you sitting on the fence, it is ok to get the Lion.

Just read the Mac World review and you will be convinced!

Jagardn
Aug 13, 2011, 11:34 PM
Good news everybody!

Mac World gave Lion a favorable review!

For those of you sitting on the fence, it is ok to get the Lion.

Just read the Mac World review and you will be convinced!

I read the review on Friday, and the experiences of the reviewer are pretty much on par with mine. Yes, there are a few bugs, but over all I love Lion.

mark28
Aug 13, 2011, 11:47 PM
Snow Leopard.

Lion sucks with WIFI, which is very important.

stevensr123
Aug 14, 2011, 02:25 AM
I don't get why there is so much hate for lion at the moment, I'm an average user and it doesn't seem much different from snow leopard in terms of performance.

I don't know if you lot are geeks or whatever, but for the average consumer and user of macs, i would say this is a pretty decent update.

----------

Snow Leopard.

Lion sucks with WIFI, which is very important.

what do you mean? I have been on my new macbook air for about 5 hours now. And the WIFI works just like my macbook pro 2010l.

Dazzlew
Aug 14, 2011, 06:22 AM
Back to SL for me too. Reasons:-
1) Much cooler to use (actually the MacBook is no longer scorching on my wrists)
2) Much faster in general us and now never beachballs - against Lion where it was like looking at a beach scene.
3) Runs Parallels much faster.
4) Has an amazing Windows managment system called Spaces and Expose, Lion may look preety but it is a massive backwards steps. You want to see easily what documents, folders you have open, not a stack.
5) Sleep and then voila i've still got wi-fi.

I don't need gimmicks like Launchpad, for multi-touch gestures I have them in spades, use Multi Touch Tool.

jamesdmc
Aug 14, 2011, 09:00 AM
I was using bay 4 on my mac pro for a Windows 7 Boot Camp drive. I had a spare 1TB hard drive laying around, so I pulled the Windows drive out, formatted the spare drive, and installed a fresh copy of Lion on it so I can dual boot.

After playing around with Lion for a short time, I made the following observations:
1. Most of the apps that are important to me are Lion-compatible. So that's good. Path Finder seems less stable though.
2. LaunchPad: I don't see the need for it on a desktop or laptop computer. Swiping through pages of apps seems very inefficient to me. Spotlight, Launchbar (which is what I use), Alfred, or simply clicking on a dock icon can get you there faster. On an iPhone, yes, I see its usefulness. On a desktop? Not so much. In fact, it was the first icon I removed from the dock. Apple says that you can delete apps from LaunchPad also, but I haven't had a chance to try it.
3. This is a big one: I'm a heavy Spaces user and the current implementation of it in Mission Control seems unfinished. Not being able to drag an app from one desktop to another without first making it the active desktop is a step backwards. Also, I prefer to arrange my Spaces 2 x 2. I don't have that option anymore. I hope they change this in a future release.
4. Mail: Finally, I don't have to install Widemail to get mail to look as it should (in my opinion).
5. Being able to resize a window from any edge: even though I use a Dell laptop for work and do this all the time on the Dell, I'll have to get used to this on a mac. Instinctively I go for the lower right corner, but it's a welcome change for me.

For me, they're going to have to fix the Spaces replacement before I make this the primary OS on any of my macs. Most of the rest of the changes for my uses are cosmetic, so I'll make the move...just not now.

handel30
Aug 14, 2011, 06:26 PM
In my opinion, you can't go wrong with either (I like both). I've been using Lion extensively for almost a month now. It's been a super smooth transition for me. Things about Lion which I have found to be a vast improvement over SL:

-- The interface isn't as colorful as SL. In comparison, the Lion UI looks a little drab and washed out. But that's the point. Lion just recedes into the background to let you totally focus on what's inside the window. If I went back to SL, I think I'd find the UI very distracting.

-- Zooming in and out, a feature I use all the time (yes, I probably need glasses), works even better with Lion.

-- Super smooth two finger swiping to go back and forth from page to page within an app, while retaining three/four finger swipe to move from app to app.

-- "Show path bar" in Finder.

-- "New Folder with Selection" in Finder lets you group documents together and move them as a group.

-- Letting me assign a different desktop to each space really makes it seem like I have different spaces rather than different copies of the same space. Having different pictures gives each space it's own unique feel.

-- As someone who forgets to save, auto save and versions are godsends.

-- Those with iMacs as well as those who use peripheral monitors have been bitching about full screen apps, but for those of us who are on notebooks (mine has a 13" screen) and who don't use monitors, full screen is a major plus. I love the way full screen automatically opens a new space. It would've been a huge mistake to have new full screen windows opening in the same space. Mail is so much easier to read in full screen.

-- The new "change item arrangement" feature in the Finder window is great for sorting and ordering all your stuff by kind.

-- Power users have piled scorn on All My Files, claiming it's for people who don't understand how files work in os x. However, for the average user it is a quick way to access your files, especially when you forget where you placed a particular item.

-- The scroll bars only appear when you scroll. Some people miss them. I don't. The fact that they are gone makes windows look less cluttered. Again, this is probably welcomed more by macbook users than imac people.

The most annoying thing about Lion for me is a very minor but irritating thing: When secondary clicking is activated as tapping with two fingers, the secondary menu pane keeps popping up when you scroll with two fingers. The machine all too often reads two finger scrolling as two finger tapping. Although it can be disabled, the alternate method of reserving a corner of the trackpad entails its own annoyances -- namely, losing access to that area of the trackpad for standard clicking.

Damers
Aug 14, 2011, 07:04 PM
Please weigh in and give me your evaluation of Lion vs. Snow Leopard.


Welcome to the hyperbole!

In its current stage, Lion sucks-IMO.

Bingo.

Tozzi
Aug 14, 2011, 07:33 PM
It's quite easy, actually.

Make a full backup of your SL partition (preferably using Carbon Copy Cloner), try out Lion, see if it works for you, and if it doesn't, go back to SL.

I went back to SL on one of my machines (the MBP) and am happily using Lion on the other one (the iMac).

If you want to be completely on the safe side, wait for 10.7.3, as others have suggested already.

WSR
Aug 14, 2011, 08:52 PM
Sorry if I am completely off the point here (due to lack of knowledge). But does this mean that in Word 2011 with Lion OS the "Save as..." option for saving documents is NOT THERE?!?!

Please correct me or inform me!

Through I can't say specifically for Word 2011, it is apparently true for some apps. Read this thread.
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1205623

aliensporebomb
Aug 14, 2011, 08:56 PM
Circumstantially less than 10 days after installing Lion my machine won't boot anymore and I apparently cannot reformat the internal drive.

I can't even boot off of a Lion or Snow Leopard boot disk.

I suspect potentially big problems with this machine since installing Lion.

AtmChm
Aug 14, 2011, 09:08 PM
Circumstantially less than 10 days after installing Lion my machine won't boot anymore and I apparently cannot reformat the internal drive.

I can't even boot off of a Lion or Snow Leopard boot disk.

I suspect potentially big problems with this machine since installing Lion.
You mean it doesn't work to hold down the option key when you power on to get a selection of boot disks?

If this is the case something else fried that probably has nothing to do with the OS.

If you can do the option-boot, do that and pop in a SL boot CD and go from there. Be aware if you want to go back to SL you will have to reformat the HD.

AtmChm
Aug 14, 2011, 09:26 PM
Grey is way less distracting than aqua. Sure SL is more colorful, but a colorful interface attracts too much attention. I missed the color at first, but after using Lion for a few weeks I find it to be superior. It was a great move to make the interface more "invisible," washed-out looking compared to SL. I find it much easier now to focus on the content inside the window. Same with the traffic lights. They are better now because they are less distracting. The SL traffic lights are bigger and brighter. I wouldn't mind an aqua interface as long as it recedes into the background.
You've got to be kidding me! That's like saying text books should go back to b&w so that figures and words in color for emphasis are "less distracting". Stripping the color from Mail and the Finder sidebar is not only a step backwards, it makes me much less productive because it's more difficult to discriminate between icons when they are all the same gray color (which is also more difficult to read)!

canadianpj
Aug 14, 2011, 09:43 PM
Lion for me. Using it on my 2008 Mac Pro and 2010 Macbook Pro. No problems. Works just fine for me.

artguy3d
Aug 14, 2011, 09:46 PM
Back to Snow leopard and loving it. Everything works and even the little things like scrolling seem much smother. All that animation was just eye candy without substance.

handel30
Aug 14, 2011, 10:48 PM
You've got to be kidding me! That's like saying text books should go back to b&w so that figures and words in color for emphasis are "less distracting". Stripping the color from Mail and the Finder sidebar is not only a step backwards, it makes me much less productive because it's more difficult to discriminate between icons when they are all the same gray color (which is also more difficult to read)!

That's a flawed analogy because the colors on the macbook are still beautiful inside the windowpanes. Text books don't have user interfaces. I haven't had any problems discriminating between icons (so far). For me, it's a step in the right direction, but we all have different needs and preferences. Lion is more lucid, less cluttered. Gives me the feeling of transparency.

artguy3d
Aug 15, 2011, 08:07 AM
That's a flawed analogy because the colors on the macbook are still beautiful inside the windowpanes. Text books don't have user interfaces. I haven't had any problems discriminating between icons (so far). For me, it's a step in the right direction, but we all have different needs and preferences. Lion is more lucid, less cluttered. Gives me the feeling of transparency.

Really? Ok each to their own. Lion is more of a cobbled together system in my opinion because of the weak bridge it attempts make to the iphone and ipad. A first attempt at this really.

tbejot
Aug 15, 2011, 07:28 PM
I upgraded to Lion after my MBP crashed and the Time Machine backup failed. So, I thought, now would be a good time to upgrade. Lion ran slow and crashed a lot so I upgraded to 8GB RAM because my 4GB was overwhelmed by Lion and running a video encoding program. After the upgrade of RAM things ran better but here are some of the issues:

Squeeze locks up and have to do a hard reboot.
Changing the background to an image will lock up the computer.
Sometimes it just locks up for no apparent reason.
After a reboot it locks up during the reboot process and you have to let it sit for 5-10 min, then reboot (no my computer is not running hot).
Programs run slower (not all, but most).
If I accidentally pull out a USB hard drive the computer locks up.
Running more than 3 programs will lock the computer up.
I can't use screen sharing anymore (but it does recognize the other computer's files).
Some of my quicktime files are 'corrupted' in Lion but fine in SL. When I try to encode the uncompressed files with the same programs in Lion and SL, some of the files are corrupted and there is no workaround other than go to my other computer that has SL and encode them there.

If I could go back, I would.

wpotere
Aug 15, 2011, 07:31 PM
If I could go back, I would.

I did...

tkermit
Aug 15, 2011, 07:33 PM
here are some of the issues:[...]

Something's seriously messed up with your system. I would start completely fresh if I was you.

AtmChm
Aug 15, 2011, 09:15 PM
Something's seriously messed up with your system. I would start completely fresh if I was you.
Yes I agree. Even though what you describe should not happen just by upgrading to Lion, seems like something strange happened in your case.

I don't agree with the predictions that Lion is Apple's Vista. I do not like Lion and think the changes are gimmicky rather than useful. However, seems most people are not having a lot of problems (bugs), and I would think many of the bugs will get worked out. Vista was a disaster from start to finish and the biggest problem was Microsoft's multi-year denial that anything was wrong. Look, Microsoft is loosing OS market share every day. Sales of Windows are down two quarters in a row, while Apple OS sales continue to expand. So, let's get perspective here. And, if you don't like Lion, you have a fantastic OS to use instead: Snow Leopard (unless you bought the new MBA or mini, then you're stuck).

Allan in T.Dot
Aug 23, 2011, 02:11 PM
+1...100 over here.

I can't believe they released something so buggy. Even the search function doesn't work properly.

stroked
Aug 23, 2011, 06:34 PM
If I could go back, I would.

You can with target disk mode and carbon copy cloner.

joeybuckets
Aug 23, 2011, 06:40 PM
I did...


me too.. left LION on my macbook, but went back to SL on my IMac. SL just runs smoother.

wpotere
Aug 23, 2011, 06:43 PM
me too.. left LION on my macbook, but went back to SL on my IMac. SL just runs smoother.

Been back on SL for a while now and it has been working great since. I just had too many issues... I'm sure they will get them sorted over time.

jusacruiser
Oct 10, 2011, 01:46 AM
Have had no problems with Lion. It has been working just fine.

Also, the Lion was designed to work better with the iCloud, so that is another reason to get the Lion.

mrsir2009
Oct 10, 2011, 02:29 AM
I've had no problems with Lion.

jusacruiser
Nov 20, 2011, 12:34 PM
In my opinion, you can't go wrong with either (I like both). I've been using Lion extensively for almost a month now. It's been a super smooth transition for me. Things about Lion which I have found to be a vast improvement over SL:

-- The interface isn't as colorful as SL. In comparison, the Lion UI looks a little drab and washed out. But that's the point. Lion just recedes into the background to let you totally focus on what's inside the window. If I went back to SL, I think I'd find the UI very distracting.

-- Zooming in and out, a feature I use all the time (yes, I probably need glasses), works even better with Lion.

-- Super smooth two finger swiping to go back and forth from page to page within an app, while retaining three/four finger swipe to move from app to app.

-- "Show path bar" in Finder.

-- "New Folder with Selection" in Finder lets you group documents together and move them as a group.

-- Letting me assign a different desktop to each space really makes it seem like I have different spaces rather than different copies of the same space. Having different pictures gives each space it's own unique feel.

-- As someone who forgets to save, auto save and versions are godsends.

-- Those with iMacs as well as those who use peripheral monitors have been bitching about full screen apps, but for those of us who are on notebooks (mine has a 13" screen) and who don't use monitors, full screen is a major plus. I love the way full screen automatically opens a new space. It would've been a huge mistake to have new full screen windows opening in the same space. Mail is so much easier to read in full screen.

-- The new "change item arrangement" feature in the Finder window is great for sorting and ordering all your stuff by kind.

-- Power users have piled scorn on All My Files, claiming it's for people who don't understand how files work in os x. However, for the average user it is a quick way to access your files, especially when you forget where you placed a particular item.

-- The scroll bars only appear when you scroll. Some people miss them. I don't. The fact that they are gone makes windows look less cluttered. Again, this is probably welcomed more by macbook users than imac people.

The most annoying thing about Lion for me is a very minor but irritating thing: When secondary clicking is activated as tapping with two fingers, the secondary menu pane keeps popping up when you scroll with two fingers. The machine all too often reads two finger scrolling as two finger tapping. Although it can be disabled, the alternate method of reserving a corner of the trackpad entails its own annoyances -- namely, losing access to that area of the trackpad for standard clicking.

"Retweeting" the best answer!

wpotere
Nov 20, 2011, 05:38 PM
Still having constant problems with Lion on several machines. I still don't recommend it until Apple issues a patch that is actually a patch.

Also, there is no need to "retweet" anything. :rolleyes:

bill-p
Nov 26, 2011, 10:12 PM
Well, I recently "converted" myself into a 2011 MBP user, and I think that the Lion experience is completely different.

It's snappy, it's smooth, battery life is great, and my fan stays relatively quiet, even during gaming sessions (depends on the game, obviously).

So my opinions of Lion have changed completely. It looks like Lion is best on machines that came with it installed by default...

wpotere
Nov 27, 2011, 07:40 AM
So my opinions of Lion have changed completely. It looks like Lion is best on machines that came with it installed by default...

Could very well be, but I just wish that they would fix it for the rest of the machines that they advertised it would work on. :mad:

vitzr
Nov 27, 2011, 08:03 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_5 like Mac OS X; de-de) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8L1 Safari/6533.18.5)

Snow Leopard, for now. Wait for 10.7.3 or something and upgrade with ease, once first version bugs and problems with 3rd party software are patched. Same rule for all OS updates.

Very well said. Sage advice, and a practice I've applied whenever Apple has issued a major point upgrade.

This year with all the hype about Lion & iCloud I decided to buy a new 13" MBA running Lion just so I could try it without disturbing my very well sorted, fast & stable Snow Leopard equipped Macs.

Now after months I'm super happy I chose this route since Lion fails to impress.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's bad, it just doesn't appeal since I'm a professional user that finds it too gimmicky.

Oh sure, you can spend hours turning off what you don't like and keeping what you do, but for me that's a waste of time & money.

That said it's wonderful for beginners and those who love the look of iOS which is Apples target market.

Lion was created by Steve Jobs, a guy who envisioned himself as a superior human being that knew what was best for the world. Having convinced legions of people to stop thinking for themselves and become followers, he leaves behind a huge flock of evangelists that will work tirelessly for free. All in an effort to prove Steve was right.

It's the most successful effort to date when it comes to the imprint he made on so many brains.

ObeseSquirrel
Nov 29, 2011, 10:08 PM
This year with all the hype about Lion & iCloud I decided to buy a new 13" MBA running Lion just so I could try it without disturbing my very well sorted, fast & stable Snow Leopard equipped Macs.

Now after months I'm super happy I chose this route since Lion fails to impress.

...

Oh sure, you can spend hours turning off what you don't like and keeping what you do, but for me that's a waste of time & money.

:confused:

50voltphantom
Nov 29, 2011, 11:39 PM
I understand why people start threads like this. But let me ask this question: How many of you, if you bought/were given/ acquired a brand new Mac, would wipe it and install Snow Leopard? I bet very few. Yes, we can choose to run whatever OS our hardware is capable of running, but it's not like you can really stay current with the latest apps and capabilities without running the latest OS.

Steve's Barber
Nov 30, 2011, 12:20 AM
Lion was created by Steve Jobs, a guy who envisioned himself as a superior human being that knew what was best for the world. Having convinced legions of people to stop thinking for themselves and become followers, he leaves behind a huge flock of evangelists that will work tirelessly for free. All in an effort to prove Steve was right.

I just finished Steve's autobiography and this pretty much sums it up. :)

Shazaam!
Nov 30, 2011, 10:46 AM
The train is leaving the station. Get on board or stay behind. Your choice.

GermanyChris
Nov 30, 2011, 05:22 PM
I understand why people start threads like this. But let me ask this question: How many of you, if you bought/were given/ acquired a brand new Mac, would wipe it and install Snow Leopard? I bet very few. Yes, we can choose to run whatever OS our hardware is capable of running, but it's not like you can really stay current with the latest apps and capabilities without running the latest OS.

I think you can actually..at least for the most part...

I just wiped my HD and reinstalled 10.6 after a fresh install of 10.6 on my wifes macbook..it just feels "lighter"

xxxamazexxx
Nov 30, 2011, 06:00 PM
Lion panders to every Mac enthusiast's mistaken impression that Apple can't go wrong. Surprise, it can.

While not as disastrous as Vista, Lion is not the big leap it hyped itself to be either. Many of the major new features, after sufficient exposure, still haven't gained enough approval from users to warrant their legitimacy (the Launchpad, Version & Resume, Mission Control). Serious questions should be asked as to the validity of these 'innovations' (as Steve Jobs likes to dub them) if they haven't met with the same influential success their precedents did in equal spans of time. I remember finding the button-less multi-touch trackpad, Spaces, Application,... very strange but instantly endearing features when I first came in contact with Snow Leopard on my first MacBook. Those weren't things I was inclined to try on my own; but after the system compelled me to live with them I was very glad that I did.

I can't measure the same satisfaction with the new features of Lion. Mission Control still comes off as a specially clustered, eye-candy, pseudo-innovative replacement of Spaces and Exposé. Some people praise how delightful it is to have different wallpapers on different desktops and feel that each desktop is truly devoted to their specialization. Come on. If you really assign each desktop with a specific purpose why are you even absorbing yourself in the wallpapers instead of working in your applications? Mac fans are starting to show the same bizarre, self-negating appreciation for their OS as do Windows fans, who find, among other things, the glassy effects in Windows abstractly but enormously compelling.

Mac used to be anything but that. It was elegant, streamlined, no-nonsense. Working on Snow Leopard imparts a very coherent sense of what the system is about: ease and productivity. Working on Lion only tells me how desperate Apple is to make OS X look like iOS. The innovations of Mac OS had never needed justifications; they simply proved themselves through usage and user experience. I feel that to defend Lion requires a deep commitment one has to shielding it from criticisms, rather than to responding to them.

I leave it to you to produce similar analogies with the other disappointing features of Lion (Launchpad, Version). These analogies should converge in the realization that Lion is a counter-intuitive, over-ambitious replacement of Snow Leopard rather than a grand improvement thereof, which it promised to be.

And it's not only the big things that devalue Lion. I used to counter less unnecessary hitches in Snow Leopard; to enumerate those in Lion is enervating. I trust that your own experience is able to confirm it.

I weary of downgrading to Snow Leopard, but everyday I can still feel my disappointment with Lion and wish that I had never upgraded.

doug in albq
Dec 1, 2011, 06:38 PM
Lion panders to every Mac enthusiast's mistaken impression that Apple can't go wrong. Surprise, it can.

While not as disastrous as Vista, Lion is not the big leap it hyped itself to be either. Many of the major new features, after sufficient exposure, still haven't gained enough approval from users to warrant their legitimacy (the Launchpad, Version & Resume, Mission Control). Serious questions should be asked as to the validity of these 'innovations' (as Steve Jobs likes to dub them) if they haven't met with the same influential success their precedents did in equal spans of time. I remember finding the button-less multi-touch trackpad, Spaces, Application,... very strange but instantly endearing features when I first came in contact with Snow Leopard on my first MacBook. Those weren't things I was inclined to try on my own; but after the system compelled me to live with them I was very glad that I did.

I can't measure the same satisfaction with the new features of Lion. Mission Control still comes off as a specially clustered, eye-candy, pseudo-innovative replacement of Spaces and Exposé. Some people praise how delightful it is to have different wallpapers on different desktops and feel that each desktop is truly devoted to their specialization. Come on. If you really assign each desktop with a specific purpose why are you even absorbing yourself in the wallpapers instead of working in your applications? Mac fans are starting to show the same bizarre, self-negating appreciation for their OS as do Windows fans, who find, among other things, the glassy effects in Windows abstractly but enormously compelling.

Mac used to be anything but that. It was elegant, streamlined, no-nonsense. Working on Snow Leopard imparts a very coherent sense of what the system is about: ease and productivity. Working on Lion only tells me how desperate Apple is to make OS X look like iOS. The innovations of Mac OS had never needed justifications; they simply proved themselves through usage and user experience. I feel that to defend Lion requires a deep commitment one has to shielding it from criticisms, rather than to responding to them.

I leave it to you to produce similar analogies with the other disappointing features of Lion (Launchpad, Version). These analogies should converge in the realization that Lion is a counter-intuitive, over-ambitious replacement of Snow Leopard rather than a grand improvement thereof, which it promised to be.

And it's not only the big things that devalue Lion. I used to counter less unnecessary hitches in Snow Leopard; to enumerate those in Lion is enervating. I trust that your own experience is able to confirm it.

I weary of downgrading to Snow Leopard, but everyday I can still feel my disappointment with Lion and wish that I had never upgraded.

an astute and accurate analysis, one you will never find on daringfireball, or any other Apple-pandering website.

thank you for seeing the truth of the situation.

linuxcooldude
Dec 1, 2011, 06:48 PM
Lion panders to every Mac enthusiast's mistaken impression that Apple can't go wrong. Surprise, it can.

Lion is not going to appeal to every user. That applies to every version with every operating system.

TSE
Dec 1, 2011, 07:37 PM
Running Snow Leopard for now... nothing in Lion interests me. Snow Leopard is excellent.

briand05
Dec 1, 2011, 09:24 PM
I'm absolutely loving lion on my new 13" MBA, I think it adds a lot of that iOS "polish" yet all the Mac OS X power is still there and that's what's best about it.

dba415
Dec 2, 2011, 01:41 AM
Running Snow Leopard for now... nothing in Lion interests me. Snow Leopard is excellent.
this

daneoni
Dec 2, 2011, 02:32 AM
Still petting Snowy.

greythorne
Dec 2, 2011, 05:16 AM
is xcode supported on snow leopard?

Using app store to download xcode it says you need lion!

vitzr
Dec 2, 2011, 05:48 AM
The train is leaving the station. Get on board or stay behind. Your choice.
It's this kind of mindless madness that gives Apple power over their users.

Newer is not always better, and blindly worshiping Apple without thinking for oneself is how Jobs built this cult like following. Some actually believe that Apple knows best, and adjust their lifestyle to comply.

There's a single word that comes to mind... gullible.

roadbloc
Dec 2, 2011, 05:58 AM
Due to Lion WiFi issues alone, I'd say stick with Snow Leopard. Lion, as much potential it has to be good, isn't good atm.

tkermit
Dec 2, 2011, 06:02 AM
Due to Lion WiFi issues alone, I'd say stick with Snow Leopard. Lion, as much potential it has to be good, isn't good atm.

How widespread of an issue is that though that you feel it is reason alone to discourage the OP from upgrading? I have had zero problems concerning WiFi with Lion.

maflynn
Dec 2, 2011, 06:07 AM
How widespread of an issue is that though that you feel it is reason alone to discourage the OP from upgrading? I have had zero problems concerning WiFi with Lion.

I have no idea how big or small this problem is, but for me. I've not incurred any problems with wifi on my 2010 MBP.

As for SL vs. Lion, I don't think I can really add much wisdom, that has not already been posted. I can give my opinion, and that is, I prefer Lion over SL. SL was great, but I've not incurred any problems with Lion either.

roadbloc
Dec 2, 2011, 06:07 AM
How widespread of an issue is that though that you feel it is reason alone to discourage the OP from upgrading? I have had zero problems concerning WiFi with Lion.

Well, the point I was trying to make was that it was a risk. WiFi could either work or fail, as far as I'm aware it only effects the MBA and White MacBook users, but I have heard of people with iMacs and MBPs having the issue as well. On top of that, Lion is still rather buggy and doesn't feel fully fleshed out.

All I was saying is that Lion is probably going to be a rather good OS. The ideas are there. But so are quite a few annoying bugs. And the features don't feel consistent and well integrated like on other Apple OSs. Given time with updates and more tweaks, this will be solved.

wpotere
Dec 2, 2011, 06:39 AM
We aren't talking about big dollars here. My advice is to simply try it and if you don't like it move back to SL. Just make sure you have a good SL backup first before you do it.

There are WiFi issues and I have had them as well as people having sleep to wake issues with Lion. There are hacks to kind of fix this (involves using the drivers from SL on Lion) but if you are not the kind that wants to go this route then I'd say stick with SL.

tigres
Dec 2, 2011, 06:50 AM
Took a holiday to FL to see mom. She needed iCloud and hence lion on her MBP, 2010 13". She's your average email and safari consumer so I upgraded it for her.

Wifi would not work from sleep, and I ran out of time troubleshooting it. Will have to revisit a full reinstall when I have hours to do. Just works my ass.

I have yet to personally see a good Lion experience, my MBA went back to SL, my sons and wife's is iffy on Lion and quite frankly I find it a true POS OS.

wikus
Dec 2, 2011, 02:16 PM
Has Lion been fixed yet?

I got rid of it on my MBP and upgraded to Snow Leopard a few months back. I couldnt stand how bloated it is, slow, laggy transitions between animations, mission control is a COMPLETE failure (why are applications grouped? did apple forget people multitask? try working in the adobe creative suite, its a nightmare).

wpotere
Dec 2, 2011, 05:33 PM
Has Lion been fixed yet?

I got rid of it on my MBP and upgraded to Snow Leopard a few months back. I couldnt stand how bloated it is, slow, laggy transitions between animations, mission control is a COMPLETE failure (why are applications grouped? did apple forget people multitask? try working in the adobe creative suite, its a nightmare).

Nope, it is pretty much the same.

johnhw
Dec 2, 2011, 05:47 PM
I have no problems with Lion, other being a RAM gobler. Everything feels snappy with 8GB of RAM.

MagnusVonMagnum
Apr 4, 2012, 06:09 PM
Apple is slowly destroying all my good will towards their OS by making it into iOS on the desktop. iOS is fine for iOS devices. I don't want my desktop being a big screen full of app icons where you can only buy apps from iTunes (seems to be the long term direction they're heading).

I used to love OSX compared to Windows and over time Windows has gotten less annoying and OSX has gotten more annoying. They never listen to their users or feedback. They just forge ahead and drop support for older stuff so you can either go back to Windows or put up with whatever new horrible thing they fancy (e.g. replacing Spaces with Mission Control with no option to use the older interface).

Meanwhile, if you stick with an OSX version you like (either by choice or by being forced to since they abandoned support for your hardware) you'll soon find your software drying up since so many like to require the latest (but not greatest) these days to even use it.

This is 10x worse in iOS where my 1st Gen iPod Touch is still perfectly usable...except that you can't get any software for it anymore since newer verisons of apps all require iOS V4.x or later. iTunes doesn't even look for the last usable version upgrade (if you forgot to upgrade to it before they replaced it with an incompatible version). It just says TOO FREAKING BAD. You can't search for software by iOS version either, meaning even IF there are Apps that still support iOS V3.x, good luck finding them since it won't tell you in some cases until you try to install it (especially on updates it says you have on the device, but can't install because they don't work with 3.x) or at least until you open it. If you could filter by minimum OS, you could at least see what's still available.

Imagine how this will translate in the future for OSX software through iTunes. Most web sites offer older versions for older OS versions even if they stopped supporting those OS versions in the latest ones, but you don't see this in iTunes. You just see ONE product. Get on the bandwagon and buy new hardware if you want an updated app!

Honestly, I'm amazed I could get the latest iTunes for my PPC whole house audio/video server. But I quickly found out (after updating my iPod 4G to iOS 5.1) that I can't WiFi sync in Leopard (even though WinXP CAN and it's from 2001; once again Apple supports the competing operating system back to the stone ages, but won't support their own OS even from a few years ago. And what is missing from Leopard that it can't sync over WiFi? My two Gen1 AppleTV units sync just fine over WiFi (that would even work with 10.4.x). So WTF is stopping it from syncing a simple iPod over WiFi other than Apple simply putting it on a "feature to withhold to encourage people to buy new hardware" list?

I was hoping without Steve Jobs that Apple would back-off this fast track road to hell and be more reasonable about the operating system staying professional instead of a consumer imitation of an iPhone and bring back support for their Pro line of software, etc. But it doesn't seem like it. The only improvement I've seen is that now Apple matches charitable contributions of their employees (Steve wouldn't even allow that since the only charity he ever cared about was himself).

I've always disliked Windows and I used to hate Microsoft (I used an Amiga 3000 until 1999 before I finally caved and bought a PC) and when I got my first (used) Mac in early 2007, it seemed like a breath of fresh air by comparison. The availability of the shell reminded me of the Amiga (I always disliked Classic MacOS for its lack of interface to the underlying system). I could get X11 apps (I had been playing around with Linux for some time and liked some things, but the overall experience still had snags and commercial software was like non-existent). I got my first AppleTV shortly after putting together my 93" home theater system and by early '08 I was on my way to having a disc-less entertainment system. When Intel came along, it seemed alright. They still supported PPC with Universal Binaries, etc. I bought my first MBP in late 2008 and set myself up with Logic Pro to record music.

But then with Snow Leopard came the drying up of the software for PPC (some apps almost immediately like Handbrake). By the time Lion came out, support for Leopard was non-existent save iTunes and now even that doesn't support all the features. And yet that very first PC I built in 1999 upgraded to XP can support ALL THOSE FEATURES that are missing in OSX from 2007. THAT is what is so freaking unnerving. Apple supports its competing operating system better than it does its own.

bedifferent
Apr 4, 2012, 06:28 PM
Took a holiday to FL to see mom. She needed iCloud and hence lion on her MBP, 2010 13". She's your average email and safari consumer so I upgraded it for her.

Wifi would not work from sleep, and I ran out of time troubleshooting it. Will have to revisit a full reinstall when I have hours to do. Just works my ass.

I have yet to personally see a good Lion experience, my MBA went back to SL, my sons and wife's is iffy on Lion and quite frankly I find it a true POS OS.

Spot on. Frustratingly, Apple has the notion that "high" "Lion" sales through the MAS equates to a popular and solid OS. They fail to realize that the high numbers of users is due to the highest ever amount of new OS X users and "Lion" is shipping with new systems, and most didn't realize how badly unpolished "Lion" is until spending the $29 online to upgrade. I'm hoping, sadly, that users will hold back from buying "Mountain Lion" and that 10.8 sales will be dismal, perhaps then will Apple listen. Until then, 75% of our reported developer bugs that are acknowledged are still open, many since the first DP1 of 10.7. In my ten years as a Mac user, I have never been disappointed in Apple. OS X and iOS need to remain separate and strong systems, not a partial incorporation into a desktop system.

klaxamazoo
Apr 4, 2012, 10:27 PM
I also have found Lion to be a big stop below Snow Leopard in terms of usability. It has a lot of good ideas but is really, really low on polish. Things like iCal and Address Book look like absolute crap while also providing lower levels of usability. I find that Versions add more work and worry to my workflow as opposed to making my life easier, which is what is supposed to do.

Mission Control really killed Lion for me and I am actually looking forward to selling my Macbook Air next week because I just hate using it. Which is sad because the hardware is amazing.

Tim Cook just doesn't have the "NO" mind set that Steve Jobs had and it really shows. The engineers aren't being pushed to do better or think things through and get things polished to perfection.

MagnusVonMagnum
Apr 4, 2012, 10:48 PM
I also have found Lion to be a big stop below Snow Leopard in terms of usability. It has a lot of good ideas but is really, really low on polish. Things like iCal and Address Book look like absolute crap while also providing lower levels of usability. I find that Versions add more work and worry to my workflow as opposed to making my life easier, which is what is supposed to do.

Mission Control really killed Lion for me and I am actually looking forward to selling my Macbook Air next week because I just hate using it. Which is sad because the hardware is amazing.

Tim Cook just doesn't have the "NO" mind set that Steve Jobs had and it really shows. The engineers aren't being pushed to do better or think things through and get things polished to perfection.

I don't buy this excuse as Steve was still around when Lion was was released and was certainly around while it was being developed.

All I can say is that Leopard was the first OSX that was noticeably slower than its previous release (all others had been faster along with more powerful) and at least for me, Snow Leopard was slightly slower than Leopard on my late 2008 Macbook Pro (at least according to XBench). It wasn't noticeable, but I was expecting a tuned up/faster release like Tiger since they were marketing it as a cleanup version (the only thing they cleaned up on was taking PPC out to trash as far as I can tell). I've yet to upgrade my MBP to Lion since I've read so many bad reviews. I like Spaces as it is. I don't want Mission Control. Why can't Apple offer the new modes as OPTIONS and keep a preference setting for those of us that like the Snow Leopard interface for those features? Windows has offered classic compatibility and visual modes for ages and you can get 3rd party software to make it look any way you want (Linux is even more configurable). Whereas OSX is "take the new look or go somewhere else" every freaking time. It's very irritating.

I just assumed it was Steve Jobs forcing "his view" as the ONLY view. But he's gone now so it's time for Apple to stop the "crazy/paranoid" crap and put Apple back into the Professional standing it used to have for so many years until Steve's obsession for the iPhone turned it into the unwanted 3rd cousin.

Let's see NAS and standard networking support for AppleTV. Let's see the TimeCapsules offer their own storage for it. Let's see Final Cut Pro return to its full glory in features. Let's see an update to Logic Studio or at least Logic Pro. How about Blu-Ray support at least for professionals that need it for their job? How about supporting the freaking customer instead of the other way around? Apple has become complacent because their iOS products are selling through the roof. That brings a lot of secondary sales to the Mac that it probably doesn't deserve lately.

Even so, I actually want a new Mac Mini for once in my life to replace my aging PowerMac PPC whole house audio/video server, but only god knows how much longer I will have to wait for them to release one with USB3 on it (I won't buy one any sooner) and because it will come with either Lion or Mountain Lion, I'm not sure I'll be thrilled with it, even so. But it's a replacement server first and foremost, but then because that machine is on 24/7, I end up using the server for e-mail and web browsing most of the time.

Old Smuggler
Apr 4, 2012, 10:49 PM
Snow leopard

throAU
Apr 4, 2012, 11:03 PM
I have no issue with lion.

I prefer mission control to spaces/expose, i like running apps full-screen when not plugged into a second display, and mobile time machine backups/versions are helpful.

I've even given launchpad a go (i thought it was totally pointless on release) and it is a good way to be able to launch apps from within another full screen app - no need to get out of full screen, navigate to apps folder, or use spotlight, etc - simply 5 finger pinch..


Yes, it needs more ram. RAM is about 100 bucks for 2x 8gb so-dimms. If you can't get 8gb+ then maybe stick with snow leopard. If you don't use a trackpad, maybe stick with snow leopard.

But if you are willing to adapt to mission control, and have the hardware, I say go for it.

anupash
Apr 6, 2012, 06:59 AM
I am an avid linux user with part time use of Windows. With great hopes with the Mac OS X environment i switched to Macbook Pro 8,1 last year. It's been one year for me using this machine. I upgraded from SL to Lion somewhere in December. I could not have been more disappointment with Apple's approach. They have made their OS feel more bloated and slow. Every app takes more time for a start. Preview takes years to open a pdf. Finder is so feature incompetent compared to competing file browsers in other OS environment. And the iOS thingies that Apple thought would be cool to bring on to the Desktop just suck. Come on man that Launchpad thing. Has ever anybody used it? And too many ziggly animations throughout the OS just make it more intolerable. And they are bringing more of this **** in the next version of OS X Mountain Lion.

And they have started closing down of their env. further. In Mountain Lion we still have the option to turn on the ability to install third party apps. But I am pretty in the coming years they will remove this completely. We will be limited to the ****** Mac Store where we have to pay for everything. And believe me on this one, apps on Apple domain are costlier compared to the competing app stores like the play store.

I am really not the shape Windows 8 is taking on the deaktop front. But on account of more openness of the platform there are so many free tools available to tweak it which can completely get rid of the stuff u dont like.

Regarding Mac being more stable compared to the Windows. I have been running Windows 7 since 2.5 years on one of my machine. It has never crashed on me and forget about BSOD. BSOD will come only when u have installed wrong drivers that were not for your system or u have filled ur C:> drive to full with almost Zero space left and try a hibernate.

I never felt that anything in Mac OS X was more stable faster or better. Instead I am of the opinion that Mac OS X is completely counter - intuitive with their dock and such features. I was so comfortable when i switched from Windows to Linux as my working OS. But when I switched from Linux to Mac OS X. It was hell. It was so not intuitive for switching between the apps if u dont use Cmd + Tab. If by mistake u minimize one of the multiple windows then it was so.difficult to switch to it. And the ugly double tab for right click was one hell to learn. But now I have found my way through it. And learned the tricks. I am.just saying that dragging files from one window to another if u want to move files is just too messy when Linux and Windows have been doing cut and paste without flaw since ice age.

Macman45
Apr 6, 2012, 07:06 AM
I did a search and could not find a thread with this topic. Please forgive me if it turns out to be a duplicate post.

I can't decide whether to upgrade to Lion or not.

My question is this.....Are most people liking Lion? Or are they sticking with Snow Leopard?

Or maybe there are some people who have switched to Lion and wished they could go back to Snow Leopard.

Please weigh in and give me your evaluation of Lion vs. Snow Leopard.

:confused:

When Lion was released, I was in my upgrade cycle, so it was time to buy new MBP and I also bought an MBA. Both of these came with Lion pre-installed of course, and have never caused one jot of trouble. My iMac was not due to be upgraded, and so was running SL. I decided that it would be best to upgrade it to Lion for the sake of uniformity.

I like Lion, but miss certain things about SL too. I'm a little concerned about the way Apple is dumbing things down. Many postings here about the Airport Express "Update" which removes all advanced options from the interface. Other utilities and applications seem to be heading in the same direction. I'll stick with Lion, but am hoping for improvements in ML.

limo79
Apr 6, 2012, 08:24 AM
Vote for Lion. It is not perfect, but it is really good and much more HW optimized than SL. But I understand that some people prefer SL for day to day work due to memory leak issues in Lion especially in Safari.

colourfastt
Apr 6, 2012, 10:19 AM
I have no issue with lion.

I prefer mission control to spaces/expose, i like running apps full-screen when not plugged into a second display, and mobile time machine backups/versions are helpful.

I've even given launchpad a go (i thought it was totally pointless on release) and it is a good way to be able to launch apps from within another full screen app - no need to get out of full screen, navigate to apps folder, or use spotlight, etc - simply 5 finger pinch..


Yes, it needs more ram. RAM is about 100 bucks for 2x 8gb so-dimms. If you can't get 8gb+ then maybe stick with snow leopard. If you don't use a trackpad, maybe stick with snow leopard.

But if you are willing to adapt to mission control, and have the hardware, I say go for it.

I've never understood why the fanboys insist on running full-screen apps on a 27" screen ... it seems like a complete waste of screen real estate.

KingJosh
Apr 6, 2012, 10:28 AM
no problems with Lion here. I prefer the graphic updates (icons etc) and mission control. I am using launch bar a lot more now also. Apart from that it is just the feeling of being up to date. The biggest feature in Lion for me is the new file sorting options lol. I will upgrade to mountain lion on release just to have a fresh feeling even if it is buggy. Bugs don't stop my money income so yah :P I think bugs are a good trade off to be with the in crew of the next cool thing and having fun.

throAU
Apr 6, 2012, 11:42 AM
I've never understood why the fanboys insist on running full-screen apps on a 27" screen ... it seems like a complete waste of screen real estate.

I run a macbook pro, not a 27" iMac. When i'm plugged into a bigger display, i don't use full screen.

No harm in having it for when I'm NOT on a massive display.

Learn to read perhaps?

rosschang
Apr 10, 2012, 04:10 AM
Snow Leopard.

Lion broke too many things. several crucial fundemental stuff: like Joining to a AD Domain... Lion just kept disconnecting.

cMacSW
Apr 11, 2012, 11:13 AM
I've had more system freezes since upgrading to lion a few weeks ago than I've had in the past 5 years. Unfortunately I need lion for developing on iOS 5.1

limo79
Apr 14, 2012, 01:53 PM
I really do not understand why Mac laptop users like Snow Leopard? Interface looks horrible, performance is not superb, bottom enclosure is quite hot and battery life is much worse than in Leopard.

MagnusVonMagnum
Apr 14, 2012, 10:54 PM
I really do not understand why Mac laptop users like Snow Leopard? Interface looks horrible, performance is not superb, bottom enclosure is quite hot and battery life is much worse than in Leopard.

I don't notice much difference either way from Leopard (Xbench says Leopard is slightly faster than Snow Leopard for the same tests). I upgraded to Snow Leopard because I'd like to keep getting software updates for various programs that no longer support Leopard. But frankly, if you're going to go that way, I could point out that Tiger ran circles around Leopard on my PPC machine. OTOH, Leopard did add some nice features (e.g. The same "Spaces" that got ditched in Lion in favor of Mission Control). But on PPC, it ditched Classic and several games did not run glitch-free in Leopard that ran fine in Tiger (e.g. No One Lives Forever 2). It's always unpleasant to find your existing software library broken in the next OS release.

I have little interest in "upgrading" to Lion, however. It'd be nice if Apple would recognize that some users like different setups/arrangements for things like Spaces versus Mission Control and the like and let the USER decide which way to go in the settings rather than them forcing the change on you. Beyond that, I think they need to concentrate on QUALITY releases, not adding crappy iPhone features in some giant hurry, leaving the OS buggered.

wpotere
Apr 15, 2012, 07:45 AM
If you have Lion and you liked Spaces, check out this...

http://switchstep.com/ReSpaceApp/

I have been using ReSpace for about a week now and really like it.

MagnusVonMagnum
Apr 15, 2012, 04:18 PM
If you have Lion and you liked Spaces, check out this...

http://switchstep.com/ReSpaceApp/

I have been using ReSpace for about a week now and really like it.

That's cool. It's a shame a developer has to recreate a feature that Apple foolishly removed, though. Apple just doesn't like to listen to its users. I keep hoping that will change with Steve gone, but I doubt it. I'm sure Steve made sure the fascist brigade is in charge in all the right places at Apple to continue his "vision" of a world where everyone's desktop looks just like Steve would want it to look.

wpotere
Apr 15, 2012, 05:47 PM
That's cool. It's a shame a developer has to recreate a feature that Apple foolishly removed, though. Apple just doesn't like to listen to its users. I keep hoping that will change with Steve gone, but I doubt it. I'm sure Steve made sure the fascist brigade is in charge in all the right places at Apple to continue his "vision" of a world where everyone's desktop looks just like Steve would want it to look.


I agree, but I am glad they did!

Al1n
Apr 15, 2012, 05:54 PM
Does anybody know if i can install Snow Leopard on 2011 Macs that came with Lion?

tigres
Apr 15, 2012, 06:02 PM
Does anybody know if i can install Snow Leopard on 2011 Macs that came with Lion?

Yes. Google for the links- some plist tweaks and such.

InuNacho
Apr 16, 2012, 02:06 AM
If Lion was to be like the Tiger of yesteryear which literally sucked every bit of power possible from the machines it was running on, I would.

If it ran on practically every Intel Mac like Tiger did with almost every G3 and beyond, I would.

If it didn't autosave a picture I tweaked in Preview just to see what it looks like, I would.

If there were still COLORS instead of nasty sterile grey, I would.

If Expose wasn't butchered and mixed in with rat meat, I would.

Until something magical happens I'm staying on Snow Leopard.

Al1n
Apr 16, 2012, 11:47 AM
Yes. Google for the links- some plist tweaks and such.
Cool, 10x.
I guess i'll upgrade my iMac to SL and keep Lion on my Air for iCloud stuff.

s83
Apr 18, 2012, 07:14 AM
I never thought I would say this but I would vote for Lion (10.7.3 release only), I reinstalled Snow Leopard on my MacBook because I thought that I missed it, but once it was installed I thought no I don’t miss this at all, it just felt dated and I went back to Lion. I think Lion is now pretty solid.

remmy
Apr 22, 2012, 08:30 AM
Either is good personally. Sometimes I miss the way SL was set up, sometimes I enjoy the little tweaks in Lion.

I guess if I new then what I do now I probably would not of bothered as there has been some hassle.

Doubt I will go for ML unless it has something that it amazing.

tkermit
Apr 22, 2012, 10:27 AM
I do wish that Lion's new APIs for Autosave,Resume,Versions etc. were more widely utilized by 3rd party developers by now, 'Automatic Termination' especially. The inconsistency of some apps working the new and most other apps still working the old way is a bit annoying.
Although Lion can still feel a bit rough around the edges and could use some refinement, I wouldn't want to go back to SL now – there are simply too many things I'd miss from Lion. Among them:


- Quicklook previews in Stacks and Spotlight, Drag&Drop support in spotlight, Quicklook previews for web pages, addresses, etc. in Mail
http://f.cl.ly/items/272t2h1W0n1Q2e02432g/prev.png
- being Apple to do a Spotlight search for content in "unsaved" documents
http://f.cl.ly/items/321A0H3L2x270e400B3A/unsaved.png
- not having to worry about apps crashing, since all windows, including "unsaved" documents will automatically be restored
- having apps restored to their former state after a restart - especially useful when system updates requiring a reboot are released, or when I switch between different operating systems.
- being able to quit apps without losing open documents or making decisions about saving or not saving changes in documents
- generally not having to care about whether documents have been saved or not (more or less wysiwyg with regard to the document you see and the corresponding file on disk)
- being able to compare parts of a document to other parts from older versions of the file/ being able to copy snippets between different versions back and forth / being able to restore a former version without ever having to manually save or take care of versioning
- apps like Preview, Quicktime, Textedit and Automator automatically terminating themselves when there are no more windows open (with the process hanging around so that the app can be quickly restarted)
- Safari's "Web Content" process automatically terminating itself shortly after there are no more Safari windows open (might be in SL as well)
- having the last-used documents shown when performing the four-fingered "app exposé" gesture over a Dock icon, regardless of whether the app is running or not (i also use this all the time with the Screen Sharing app to start a VNC session with a particular computer)
- fullscreen apps for when I want to keep all distractions away
- hidden scrollbars resulting in a cleaner UI with fewer distractions, and more space for content
- reversed scroll direction (seems logical and natural to use to me)
- multiple desktops with different desktop backgrounds and gestures for switching between them and fullscreen apps
- four-finger tapping to switch between the last used desktops or last-used full-screen apps (requires terminal "hack")
- windows that are shown in their correct size relative to each other in MC (unlike in SL's version of Exposé)
- app icons for easier identification of a set of windows in MC
- ability to easily pick out windows of an app with few windows open among apps with many windows open (I always have tons of Safari windows open which makes it harder to find other apps' windows in SL's Exposé)
- Seamless Full Disk Encryption
- swiping to go back and forth in Safari, pinching to zoom in
- pinch out gesture to show the Desktop
- Ability to quickly duplicate an open document (I also assigned a keyboard shortcut to the menu entry)
- improved search / search tokens in Mail
- Grouping files, especially grouping by type or date, in Finder
- Favorites bar in Mail with keyboard shortcut access to individual folders (Cmd-1/2/3…)
- Full-screen Preview !! (awesome for distractionless reading as well as annotating PDFs or sorting through pictures)
- Full-screen screen sharing (why is this only now possible?! )
- Full-screen terminal :)
- Resize windows from any side (can't believe how often I use that now – Apple was simply wrong about this one before)

tkermit
Apr 22, 2012, 12:10 PM
You've got to be kidding me! That's like saying text books should go back to b&w so that figures and words in color for emphasis are "less distracting".

Apple isn't stripping color from the content, but just the UI (chrome). And they're not alone in that regard:

http://f.cl.ly/items/1G0J3Y2U0C2L1u3n350O/green.pnghttp://f.cl.ly/items/421w0g1t2a3i3h170F1x/adobe.pnghttp://f.cl.ly/items/3D0l1G0r1I0K0S1A1v0g/ms.jpg

gumblecosby
Apr 22, 2012, 12:15 PM
I do wish that Lion's new APIs for Autosave,Resume,Versions etc. were more widely utilized by 3rd party developers by now, 'Automatic Termination' especially. The inconsistency of some apps working the new and most other apps still working the old way is a bit annoying.
Although Lion can still feel a bit rough around the edges and could use some refinement, I wouldn't want to go back to SL now – there are simply too many things I'd miss from Lion. Among them:


- Quicklook previews in Stacks and Spotlight, Drag&Drop support in spotlight, Quicklook previews for web pages, addresses, etc. in Mail
Image (http://f.cl.ly/items/272t2h1W0n1Q2e02432g/prev.png)
- being Apple to do a Spotlight search for content in "unsaved" documents
Image (http://f.cl.ly/items/321A0H3L2x270e400B3A/unsaved.png)
- not having to worry about apps crashing, since all windows, including "unsaved" documents will automatically be restored
- having apps restored to their former state after a restart - especially useful when system updates requiring a reboot are released, or when I switch between different operating systems.
- being able to quit apps without losing open documents or making decisions about saving or not saving changes in documents
- generally not having to care about whether documents have been saved or not (more or less wysiwyg with regard to the document you see and the corresponding file on disk)
- being able to compare parts of a document to other parts from older versions of the file/ being able to copy snippets between different versions back and forth / being able to restore a former version without ever having to manually save or take care of versioning
- apps like Preview, Quicktime, Textedit and Automator automatically terminating themselves when there are no more windows open (with the process hanging around so that the app can be quickly restarted)
- Safari's "Web Content" process automatically terminating itself shortly after there are no more Safari windows open (might be in SL as well)
- having the last-used documents shown when performing the four-fingered "app exposé" gesture over a Dock icon, regardless of whether the app is running or not (i also use this all the time with the Screen Sharing app to start a VNC session with a particular computer)
- fullscreen apps for when I want to keep all distractions away
- hidden scrollbars resulting in a cleaner UI with fewer distractions, and more space for content
- reversed scroll direction (seems logical and natural to use to me)
- multiple desktops with different desktop backgrounds and gestures for switching between them and fullscreen apps
- four-finger tapping to switch between the last used desktops or last-used full-screen apps (requires terminal "hack")
- windows that are shown in their correct size relative to each other in MC (unlike in SL's version of Exposé)
- app icons for easier identification of a set of windows in MC
- ability to easily pick out windows of an app with few windows open among apps with many windows open (I always have tons of Safari windows open which makes it harder to find other apps' windows in SL's Exposé)
- Seamless Full Disk Encryption
- swiping to go back and forth in Safari, pinching to zoom in
- pinch out gesture to show the Desktop
- Ability to quickly duplicate an open document (I also assigned a keyboard shortcut to the menu entry)
- improved search / search tokens in Mail
- Grouping files, especially grouping by type or date, in Finder
- Favorites bar in Mail with keyboard shortcut access to individual folders (Cmd-1/2/3…)
- Full-screen Preview !! (awesome for distractionless reading as well as annotating PDFs or sorting through pictures)
- Full-screen screen sharing (why is this only now possible?! )
- Full-screen terminal :)
- Resize windows from any side (can't believe how often I use that now – Apple was simply wrong about this one before)

Some of those features you listed are negatives for me. :) Particularly auto termination, recent docs in app expose, reverse scrolling, hidden scrollbars, auto restore and the versions ui is clunky and slow (why only show 2 versions at once?). I also find copying large amounts of files to and from usb to be a bit quicker on snow leopard.


The positives are the improved screen sharing (observe mode and full screen are not in snow leopard) , improved quick look and full screen programs (why no textedit full screen?). Lion has also never crashed on me either. Even 10.8.0 never crashed. Early .0 to .2 releases of Leopard and Snow leopard froze on me (probably about 3 or 4 times overall).

The auto termination drives me mad because I used to always leave textedit and preview running to quickly open files. Under heavy load in Lion, these programs sometimes take 5 to 10 seconds to re-open and are sometimes accompanied by a lengthy beachball so I would prefer to disable this new feature. Most of the other features can be changed back except this one.

Disabling the new window animations and speeding up the mission control animation with terminal commands really make lion feel a lot more responsive on a slow graphics card. Make for a much more pleasant experience

Its close but I prefer snow leopard.

scottsjack
Apr 22, 2012, 01:00 PM
I do wish that Lion's new APIs for Autosave,Resume,Versions etc. were more widely utilized by 3rd party developers by now, 'Automatic Termination' especially. The inconsistency of some apps working the new and most other apps still working the old way is a bit annoying.


Not really. If Office 2011 didn't have the normal peoples' Save As I wouldn't be using Lion at all. I have no use Lion's features like Versions, Resume, lock files all over the place, much slower response and goofy animations.

FileVault2 encrypted Lion on my 2008 uMBP blew up. . . no restore partition, no recognition of its Time Machine back up of the night before.

One thing good about upgrading a lot of hard drives is that I end up with lots of old installations frozen in time. I cloned a Snow Leopard installation from the previous HD and updated the OS and applications. Then I updated email and data from my desktop.

Man is Snow Leopard nice. No stupid animations, grey icons or slow application opening time. I do miss Lion's fully adjustable windows, deeper window shadows and auto logon when I hit Starbucks but I'd rather have simplicity and performance.

My 2.66GHz mini running Lion feels like a lump compared to the 2.4GHz MBP on Snow Leopard. Both have WD 750GB 7200RPM drives, 8GB of OWC RAM and run Nvidia 9400M GPUs. They're about as matched as they can be.

I'm hoping that Mountain Lion offers some SL-like performance and a refinement of Lion's iOS characteristics.

Kariya
Apr 24, 2012, 03:11 AM
I use to be a big SL person but i think i've since adapted to Lion and quite enjoy it now especially with the latest 10.7.4 build. Granted i made a few tweaks but the OS is largely vanilla.

Reinstalled SL the other day and i didn't miss it as much as i thought i would. Besides sticking with SL is not a long term solution. You'll be forced to upgrade sooner or later when software (and hardware) start becoming Lion exclusive.

*shrug*

scottsjack
Apr 24, 2012, 02:21 PM
Besides sticking with SL is not a long term solution. You'll be forced to upgrade sooner or later when software (and hardware) start becoming Lion exclusive.

*shrug*

You're right about that. Yesterday I decided to try SkyDrive. It looks like a great service that has some advantages over iCloud for data files. Not that dragging files between Mac and Windows drives is hard I would just like to try having them appear in the SkyDrive folder automatically..

My luck, SkyDrive for Mac is only available for Lion! Thanks Microsoft.

stroked
Apr 24, 2012, 10:16 PM
You're right about that. Yesterday I decided to try SkyDrive. It looks like a great service that has some advantages over iCloud for data files. Not that dragging files between Mac and Windows drives is hard I would just like to try having them appear in the SkyDrive folder automatically..

My luck, SkyDrive for Mac is only available for Lion! Thanks Microsoft.

That's odd, I have had Skydrive for a few years. When I first got it, I was using Tiger. I just checked to see if it is still available with Leopard, and they let me upgrade from 7 Gb to 25, still free.

edit Ok it is the Skydrive app that is for Lion only.

Paradoxally
Apr 25, 2012, 06:58 AM
My comments are inline.


- Quicklook previews in Stacks and Spotlight, Drag&Drop support in spotlight, Quicklook previews for web pages, addresses, etc. in Mail This is good, great job Apple
Image (http://f.cl.ly/items/272t2h1W0n1Q2e02432g/prev.png)
- being Apple to do a Spotlight search for content in "unsaved" documents
Image (http://f.cl.ly/items/321A0H3L2x270e400B3A/unsaved.png) I don't use Spotlight, Alfred is better.
- not having to worry about apps crashing, since all windows, including "unsaved" documents will automatically be restored Not exactly...if Photoshop crashes I still lose my progress if it's unsaved. That's the only app I care about.
- having apps restored to their former state after a restart - especially useful when system updates requiring a reboot are released, or when I switch between different operating systems. NO NO NO. I hate Resume, it lags my Mac like crazy. Having 20+ apps open on startup is not the way to go.
- being able to quit apps without losing open documents or making decisions about saving or not saving changes in documents I always save it myself, 'cos that's how all other OS work (quit, -do you want to save bla bla?-, yes, no, cancel)
- generally not having to care about whether documents have been saved or not (more or less wysiwyg with regard to the document you see and the corresponding file on disk) Not really sure what you mean.
- being able to compare parts of a document to other parts from older versions of the file/ being able to copy snippets between different versions back and forth / being able to restore a former version without ever having to manually save or take care of versioning Only in supported apps, which I don't use much (plus Versions is a fail for me)
- apps like Preview, Quicktime, Textedit and Automator automatically terminating themselves when there are no more windows open (with the process hanging around so that the app can be quickly restarted) - doesn't really take up that much RAM though...Lion's bloatness is not because of this
- Safari's "Web Content" process automatically terminating itself shortly after there are no more Safari windows open (might be in SL as well) - I believe it is
- having the last-used documents shown when performing the four-fingered "app exposé" gesture over a Dock icon, regardless of whether the app is running or not (i also use this all the time with the Screen Sharing app to start a VNC session with a particular computer) - oh wow I didn't know about this, my bad. This is good.
- fullscreen apps for when I want to keep all distractions away Don't need this.
- hidden scrollbars resulting in a cleaner UI with fewer distractions, and more space for content Only makes sense on laptop though.
- reversed scroll direction (seems logical and natural to use to me) Absolutely.........and absolutely not. With a trackpad = YES. With a mouse = NO. This is not a flight simulator.
- multiple desktops with different desktop backgrounds and gestures for switching between them and fullscreen apps Hyperspaces does this on SL, for the rest, BTTool
- four-finger tapping to switch between the last used desktops or last-used full-screen apps (requires terminal "hack")
- windows that are shown in their correct size relative to each other in MC (unlike in SL's version of Exposé) But you can get Leopard's Expose on SL...which is relative (I don't like this, personally)
- app icons for easier identification of a set of windows in MC No birds-eye view, though (birds eye view is when you invoke Spaces then Expose, so you can see EVERY window on your desktop, then you can move/go to that window)
- ability to easily pick out windows of an app with few windows open among apps with many windows open (I always have tons of Safari windows open which makes it harder to find other apps' windows in SL's Exposé) - this is why you use bird's eye view
- Seamless Full Disk Encryption - I don't use it, but I'm sure it's a welcome addition.
- swiping to go back and forth in Safari, pinching to zoom in - I use Firefox, and with BTT, the same effect works with no time wasted on pointless animations.
- pinch out gesture to show the Desktop Press F11, much quicker and no awkward motion needed.
- Ability to quickly duplicate an open document (I also assigned a keyboard shortcut to the menu entry) - Save As......? Seriously, Duplicate is terrible compared to save as.
- improved search / search tokens in Mail It's funny because it's slower to search through my 8000 messages on Lion than SL...maybe it's just me
- Grouping files, especially grouping by type or date, in Finder - This is amazing. I cringe every time I'm on SL and it doesn't have this. Can't live without it.
- Favorites bar in Mail with keyboard shortcut access to individual folders (Cmd-1/2/3…) - Don't use it
- Full-screen Preview !! (awesome for distractionless reading as well as annotating PDFs or sorting through pictures) - I always use my Preview without full-screen, bad habits? haha
- Full-screen screen sharing (why is this only now possible?! )
- Full-screen terminal :) - Not really important.
- Resize windows from any side (can't believe how often I use that now – Apple was simply wrong about this one before) They were, but I hardly ever resize windows anymore. BTT -> activate 'Windows 7' window snapping. Done. Now that's something I can't believe Apple never had out of the box.

blow45
Apr 26, 2012, 08:15 PM
yeah full screen terminal is great... are we joking here?

Snow lion is the last stable and robust os from apple. Lion is a fancy joke and if it handn't been for icloud, no one would have upgraded anyway. Too bad ios is taking so much dev focus away from os x, it shows. Lion is broken, it's system hog, it's buggy, and it's very unreliable and slugish in terms of memory and general resouce management. Memory leaks in safari, crashes in preview, broken compatibilities, smb shares problems, you name it.

And let me not go into some of the ui choices, I 've written sheets of posts here about these, autosaves, versions, duplicates, auto quitting, ios looking garbage in ical and contacts, grey sidebars where user customized folder turn generic grey as well, shut windows popping back up... a load of horse manure imho opinion. And that wouldn't be THAT much of problem if the os in general seemed responsive and robust, and it simply isn't.

Stick with sl, lion is apple's vista.

astrorider
Apr 26, 2012, 08:38 PM
snip
Thanks for taking the time to post this. I learned a few new tricks, and agree many of these you really come to appreciate after using Lion for a while.

cshel24
Apr 27, 2012, 08:47 AM
I got Lion on the release date, my MacBook really did not like it. My MacBook and I are a lot happier now that I did a clean install of Snow Leopard.

Lion has some cool new stuff I guess, but my computer was probably too old to really run it efficiently.

InuNacho
Apr 27, 2012, 09:47 AM
Snow lion is the last stable and robust os from apple. Lion is a fancy joke and if it handn't been for icloud, no one would have upgraded anyway. Too bad ios is taking so much dev focus away from os x, it shows. Lion is broken, it's system hog, it's buggy, and it's very unreliable and slugish in terms of memory and general resouce management. Memory leaks in safari, crashes in preview, broken compatibilities, smb shares problems, you name it.

Thats why Apple is releasing Mountain Lion and even letting people preview it. They know they screwed up and building hype for their next OS will supposedly fix everything.

alembic
Apr 27, 2012, 08:23 PM
Memory leaks in safari, crashes in preview, broken compatibilities, smb shares problems, you name it.I've got a linux file server that exposes samba shares. Do you mean Lion has problems mounting them? That would be a problem because my music collection is accessed through one of these shares. Thx.

astrorider
Apr 27, 2012, 09:01 PM
I've got a linux file server that exposes samba shares. Do you mean Lion has problems mounting them? That would be a problem because my music collection is accessed through one of these shares. Thx.

I've not had any problems accessing smb shares on my linux NAS. But I haven't really had any other problems he mentioned either besides increased RAM use, and that I really only notice because my Macbook Air has just 2GB of RAM so there's some additional disk space being chewed up by swap files.

Paradoxally
Apr 28, 2012, 09:24 PM
I've not had any problems accessing smb shares on my linux NAS. But I haven't really had any other problems he mentioned either besides increased RAM use, and that I really only notice because my Macbook Air has just 2GB of RAM so there's some additional disk space being chewed up by swap files.

It's slow even with 4GB......SL never behaved like this. Maybe my Mac just wasn't meant to run Lion (it's a 2009 model). I'll stick to the 'memory management sucks' argument, though.

blow45
Apr 28, 2012, 09:51 PM
Reading one of the threads I posted below reminded me of mail.app becoming a system halting memory hoag (swap hoag too) in one of my systems quite frequently, so I should add that too, last page of the apple thread someone goes into it in detail.

@astro you VE gotten it wrong, the cause and the effect. You don't notice it because you "only" (btw a few years ago it used to be more than plenty in os x with the same usages...) have 2 gbs of ram, which calls for more swapping. You notice it because of worse memory management causes page outs. Also some people have noticed that lion does a poor job of releasing and allocating inactive ram and resorts to pageing, even doing so when there's free ram too.

You might want to read these:
http://workstuff.tumblr.com/post/20464780085/something-is-deeply-broken-in-os-x-memory-management
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3193912?start=765&tstart=0

I've got a linux file server that exposes samba shares. Do you mean Lion has problems mounting them? That would be a problem because my music collection is accessed through one of these shares. Thx.
I noticed that third party smb mounting apps on the iPad are wayyyyy faster in accessing smb shares in my local network than lion. Lion also cannot search smb shares via the finder and apparently apple refuses to address this and are stonewalling everyone about it with their tech support doing their best to come up with one bs excuse after the other on why this is the case.

----------

It's slow even with 4GB......SL never behaved like this. Maybe my Mac just wasn't meant to run Lion (it's a 2009 model). I'll stick to the 'memory management sucks' argument, though.

Apparently my 2 month old 4gb ram mac mini that came with lion wasn't meant to run lion either....sadly...:(

nanosour
Apr 28, 2012, 10:29 PM
Have 3 iMac's and a whitebook all updated to Lion on day one. Haven't had a problem on any of the computers with respect to networking using a 20MB service and an Airport Express for a router. Don't really care for Launchpad or Mission Control and would definitely like to have my SL spaces back. Also, wish Apple didn't do away with Rosetta to run Quicken. Other than that, I'm pretty happy with Lion and will probably move along to ML when it come out.

Upgrading to the newest OS has just become a part of my Mac experience since I made the switch in '05.


Nano

macbook pro i5
Apr 28, 2012, 11:10 PM
It's slow even with 4GB......SL never behaved like this. Maybe my Mac just wasn't meant to run Lion (it's a 2009 model). I'll stick to the 'memory management sucks' argument, though.

No trust me my early 2011 mac book pro 13 inch lags where as in on snow leopard it never did,So I reinstalled snow leopard to upgrade:D

Paradoxally
Apr 29, 2012, 06:45 AM
No trust me my early 2011 mac book pro 13 inch lags where as in on snow leopard it never did,So I reinstalled snow leopard to upgrade:D

First thing I'm going to do on Monday, after I clear all this workload. I don't care if I lose some features, like iCloud, this sluggishness is unbearable.

Diiiiips
Apr 29, 2012, 07:57 AM
No trust me my early 2011 mac book pro 13 inch lags where as in on snow leopard it never did,So I reinstalled snow leopard to upgrade:D

Yep, exactly the same for me. My early 2011 MBP became slower to boot and there was even a slight delay in opening apps, which wasn't there in SL.

tkermit
Apr 29, 2012, 09:32 AM
No trust me my early 2011 mac book pro 13 inch lags where as in on snow leopard it never did,So I reinstalled snow leopard to upgrade:D

My 2010 MBP, if anything, seems to run slightly better on Lion 10.7.3 than 10.6.8. Things like the animation for App Exposé with lots of windows is much smoother than before.

The rest of the system is lag-free as well, but that might have something to do with the SSD I'm using. Booting might be a second or two slower (without taking Resume into account), but I can live with that.

I have to admit though that 10.7.3 specifically was quite an improvement compared to previous versions. Whoever has only tried Lion pre 10.7.3 might want to give it another try.

Eithanius
Apr 29, 2012, 09:52 AM
My 2010 MBP, if anything, seems to run slightly better on Lion 10.7.3 than 10.6.8. Things like the animation for App Exposé with lots of windows is much smoother than before.

The rest of the system is lag-free as well, but that might have something to do with the SSD I'm using. Booting might be a second or two slower (without taking Resume into account), but I can live with that.

I have to admit though that 10.7.3 specifically was quite an improvement compared to previous versions. Whoever has only tried Lion pre 10.7.3 might want to give it another try.

As a matter of fact, I concur... I have a 2010 MBP with an SSD, and animations are a tad better on Lion than Snowy, with the exception of Mission Control having to display tons of windows.

However the features on Lion are still a turn-off...

macbook pro i5
Apr 29, 2012, 03:25 PM
First thing I'm going to do on Monday, after I clear all this workload. I don't care if I lose some features, like iCloud, this sluggishness is unbearable.

I know 10.7.3 was an improvement but not by much so finally I upgraded to Snow Leopard again.

Diiiiips
Apr 30, 2012, 06:14 AM
Is 10.7.3 the current version or has there been an update since?

Paradoxally
Apr 30, 2012, 05:57 PM
I know 10.7.3 was an improvement but not by much so finally I upgraded to Snow Leopard again.

Back on SL too, was a breeze with the CCC backup I did before I upgraded to Lion.

My Mac is like a whole new machine, wow.

macbook pro i5
Apr 30, 2012, 06:15 PM
Back on SL too, was a breeze with the CCC backup I did before I upgraded to Lion.

My Mac is like a whole new machine, wow.

I know the speed boost is AMAZING!!! plus I forgot how much I missed spaces!

quadturbo
Apr 30, 2012, 11:27 PM
Computer: 2010 Core 2 DUO Macbook Pro 13, 8gb RAM, 512 SSD.

1. I upgraded to Lion first day it came out.
2. Had to perform a zero-out format and clean install afterwards because of MAJOR problems.
3. Ran on Lion fine, there has been more crashes than SL but not enough to bother me. Only problem was had to upgrade to parallels 7 because Lion was incompatible with 6.
4. Ran Lion for a little less than 10 months.
5. Yesterday, decided to switch back to SL due to these reasons:

I don't use many of the new functions offered:
- iCloud (paranoid I guess, but bottom line is I don't like my data on someone else's server and only 10 years down the line to find out that Apple has been conducting "research" on their consumers about their habits through what they store/save/or plan)
- Launchpad (looks cool, but not functional because it requires more movement to get to where I am going)
- and MANY MORE.

Lion 10.7.3 was just slower for me over time. I thought it was faster at first, but it appears to be loading more into RAM up front in attempt to make things run more efficient. What ended happening is more power consumption and not much performance to be shown for it. Don't get me wrong, I bet most people using my mac (with 8gb ram and SSD) would appreciate the performance I was getting, but remember that you would be upset too if you even noticed a "small" decrease in overall system speed. Now if Lion provided some obscenely awesome application or function (Airdrop was close but no cigar) then I would sacrifice for the performance.

6. So after I reinstalled SL (after zero out format, TRIM, updating whatever SL needed upgraded and installing all of parallels with nLited XP Black, CS5, office 2011, etc) I realized how much I missed my fan not going off every hour or so if I even open one video intensive app.

The only problem is that Apple doesn't seem to be too friendly to developers on SL. You have to download Xcode 4.3 for SL. (How much Xcode has decreased in quality is another discussion).

Overall, I am extremely happy returning to SL and so is my Mac.

Paradoxally
May 1, 2012, 02:52 PM
Computer: 2010 Core 2 DUO Macbook Pro 13, 8gb RAM, 512 SSD.

1. I upgraded to Lion first day it came out.
2. Had to perform a zero-out format and clean install afterwards because of MAJOR problems.
3. Ran on Lion fine, there has been more crashes than SL but not enough to bother me. Only problem was had to upgrade to parallels 7 because Lion was incompatible with 6.
4. Ran Lion for a little less than 10 months.
5. Yesterday, decided to switch back to SL due to these reasons:

...

Overall, I am extremely happy returning to SL and so is my Mac.

Wow, this sounds like me. I've been using Lion since the first DP, then I decided to go back to SL because it was buggy. But then as soon as the gold version hit, I upgraded and never looked back. I thought I was following the natural course - when a new OS is released, most people generally upgrade.

I was happy with Lion - it was decent, I never had any WiFi problems. Mission Control took a while to get used to, but it wasn't the worse thing ever. The lack of all windows Exposé, however, was. But alas, time to move on, and I forgot all about it.

Then, after about 8 months, I start to fire up some VMs, 'cos I needed to run Windows, and noticed how slow it was. I thought it was because I didn't have enough free space, so I went ahead and deleted some files. No go. Then I start reading all the complaints with Lion that people had - battery lasting less, terrible RAM management, lack of Exposé/Spaces which JUST WORKED (Mission Control is a disaster for more than 4+ desktops, I tried it).

And then I decided to downgrade, in early March of this year. I stayed with SL for two weeks, but it felt awkward, 'cos I was used to the whole gestures and MC with Lion. Plus, iCloud and iMessages. I thought: 'wow, I need iCloud!' so I decided to do a zero-out and install Lion CLEAN.

First day, it was much faster. Wow, a clean install worked wonders. But over time, it started to page out my RAM. I used Lion for around a month (end of March - end of April). I tried disabling dynamic_pager, that worked, but then as soon as the Mac started to have very little free RAM, it would freeze temporarily. Nah, that's not good enough.

Back to Snow Leopard - and can you believe it, everything just works: longer battery performance (and mine already has 1,015 cicles - it lasted 1h to 1h30 on Lion, on SL it's over 2h), Spaces/Exposé again (rejoice!), decent RAM management. I'm a happy camper.

My Mac is a 13" mid-2009 model, 2.26 Ghz with 4 GB RAM. I might upgrade to ML this summer, but I'll need 8 GB and A LOT of patience.

myrtlebee
May 17, 2012, 01:09 PM
Wow, this sounds like me. I've been using Lion since the first DP, then I decided to go back to SL because it was buggy. But then as soon as the gold version hit, I upgraded and never looked back. I thought I was following the natural course - when a new OS is released, most people generally upgrade.

I was happy with Lion - it was decent, I never had any WiFi problems. Mission Control took a while to get used to, but it wasn't the worse thing ever. The lack of all windows Exposé, however, was. But alas, time to move on, and I forgot all about it.

Then, after about 8 months, I start to fire up some VMs, 'cos I needed to run Windows, and noticed how slow it was. I thought it was because I didn't have enough free space, so I went ahead and deleted some files. No go. Then I start reading all the complaints with Lion that people had - battery lasting less, terrible RAM management, lack of Exposé/Spaces which JUST WORKED (Mission Control is a disaster for more than 4+ desktops, I tried it).

And then I decided to downgrade, in early March of this year. I stayed with SL for two weeks, but it felt awkward, 'cos I was used to the whole gestures and MC with Lion. Plus, iCloud and iMessages. I thought: 'wow, I need iCloud!' so I decided to do a zero-out and install Lion CLEAN.

First day, it was much faster. Wow, a clean install worked wonders. But over time, it started to page out my RAM. I used Lion for around a month (end of March - end of April). I tried disabling dynamic_pager, that worked, but then as soon as the Mac started to have very little free RAM, it would freeze temporarily. Nah, that's not good enough.

Back to Snow Leopard - and can you believe it, everything just works: longer battery performance (and mine already has 1,015 cicles - it lasted 1h to 1h30 on Lion, on SL it's over 2h), Spaces/Exposé again (rejoice!), decent RAM management. I'm a happy camper.

My Mac is a 13" mid-2009 model, 2.26 Ghz with 4 GB RAM. I might upgrade to ML this summer, but I'll need 8 GB and A LOT of patience.

Same thing happened to me. Same model machine. Also, I noticed when on Lion, animations weren't totally smooth (I have a MacMini 2011 i5 and Lion is perfect on that machine, animations smooth) and I could hear a light sort of "clickwheel" noise when scrolling in Safari and when toggling in and out of fullscreen. I'm assuming it had something to do with the graphics? A bit of a shame actually, because I enjoy Lion, save for a few things - but I would return to Lion (and, in turn, ML this summer) if I could.

rm -rf /*
May 17, 2012, 06:06 PM
Lion is like Snow Leopard with mittens and lipstick. It doesn't look or feel like a *nix system. I am rolling back my main box this week.

Garoolgan
May 26, 2012, 06:08 AM
I had to go Lion on a new MacBook Pro. It was a lot of hassle to get some programs running on Lion, searching for product updates etc. My scanner is also doing strange things and Canon says it won't run on Acrobat 8 under Lion. It does however seem to function from Photoshop CS3, but I'm still testing it. My printers seem to be OK from MS Office for Mac and Photoshop.

I couldn't get the Migration Assistant to find the Lion MacBook so I wound up transferring my data with a couple of 8Gb jumpsticks.

The loss of being able to scan in Acrobat is for me a major issue. As a temporary solution I'm scanning with Photoshop, saving as pdf then assembling pages in Acrobat 8! Talk about time wasting! I'm still trying to work out whether it is realistic to buy a new Adobe Acrobat Pro as there are a lot of negative opinions on the Acrobat/Lion issue. Maybe there are other pdf programs out there that work on Lion? I think I'll post a non political straight question on the forum!

Garoolgan

astrorider
May 26, 2012, 11:16 AM
Maybe there are other pdf programs out there that work on Lion? I think I'll post a non political straight question on the forum!

Garoolgan

Have you tried the Preview app? it comes with Lion and has an option to scan directly in it; I think it's under the File menu.

kaielement
May 26, 2012, 11:51 AM
I use lion on two different macs and love it. No wifi issues for me. And as to printers and scanners so far no problems yet.

myrtlebee
May 26, 2012, 03:02 PM
I purchased 8gb of RAM and installed it into my 2009 2.26 C2D MacBook Pro 13". I have since switched to Lion and everything runs smooth and fast. If anyone has any trouble, I would suggest bumping yourself up to at least 8gb of RAM and see how that goes. I'm enjoying it more than SL now and have become more of a gestures user. Much more efficient for me.

astrorider
May 29, 2012, 02:16 PM
I've been using Lion for the last 5 months or so, but it really surprised me how many of the tips in this article I hadn't yet come across:
http://www.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/80-handy-os-x-lion-tips-and-tricks-1044374