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View Full Version : ATV 2 vs Roku 2 vs Boxee vs Revue




bookwormsy
Aug 12, 2011, 10:07 PM
Hi, I've been looking for a few weeks and everything I've seen is a bit outdated. So I have a 5.1 home theater at home, with a Denon AV receiver, and I need something to replace my old modded Xbox running XBMC. It can't handle HD so I need to replace it.

Theres a new Roku box out now, and the Revue has been dropped in price to 100 bucks.

My needs:

Access folder on my network containing video files. AVIs/mp4s/mkvs. My parents download Korean dramas and we have ripped DVDs so this is the number one thing.

Netflix: We don't have it yet, but we probably will in the near future. HD (1080p if possible, if not, not a dealbreaker) and supporting 5.1 surround sound.

Everything else is a bonus. The Denon supports audio Airplay, and I don't want to make/buy a HTPC.

Now, I'm leaning towards the Revue because I'm pretty sure it has good networking capabilities for my videos. Also, I hear Netflix is good and it has the Chrome browser and includes a keyboard that is Harmony. Only thing is, it has mediocre reviews. Whether thats due to the formerly high price or not, I don't know.

I'm open to suggestions. Tell me what you have and like/dislike about it, or what you would recommend.



Che Castro
Aug 12, 2011, 10:29 PM
Apple tv + icefilms >>>>>>

maximus96
Aug 12, 2011, 10:56 PM
I'm in the same situation and would like to know as well. If I go out and buy the atv tomorrow, can it still be jailbroken? I thought there was a new firmware that just came out.

fpnc
Aug 12, 2011, 10:57 PM
I own an Apple TV (1 & 2), a Boxee Box, the Revue, and a Roku XD|S and IMO the Apple TV is the best product within that group (and it really isn't close, when linked to a good iTunes library the Apple TV is best by a long shot).

However, for your stated purpose I wouldn't pick the Apple TV ("...AVIs/mp4s/mkvs...ripped DVDs"). For that the Boxee Box may be the best choice (but IMO the Boxee Box is still kind of a hack and not really ready for "prime time"). The Revue is interesting mainly because it will eventually be upgraded to Honeycomb which COULD make a big difference. I don't have the newest Roku, but if it is anything like my XD|S I'd have to call it competent but uninspiring.

bookwormsy
Aug 12, 2011, 11:36 PM
I own an Apple TV (1 & 2), a Boxee Box, the Revue, and a Roku XD|S and IMO the Apple TV is the best product within that group (and it really isn't close, when linked to a good iTunes library the Apple TV is best by a long shot).

However, for your stated purpose I wouldn't pick the Apple TV ("...AVIs/mp4s/mkvs...ripped DVDs"). For that the Boxee Box may be the best choice (but IMO the Boxee Box is still kind of a hack and not really ready for "prime time"). The Revue is interesting mainly because it will eventually be upgraded to Honeycomb which COULD make a big difference. I don't have the newest Roku, but if it is anything like my XD|S I'd have to call it competent but uninspiring.

Thanks! How would the Revue be if I got it right now? As it is now, no Honeycomb? The file interface is the #! thing. Do you have a pro/cons thing for each?

fpnc
Aug 13, 2011, 12:02 AM
Thanks! How would the Revue be if I got it right now? As it is now, no Honeycomb? The file interface is the #! thing. Do you have a pro/cons thing for each?
Honeycomb hasn't been officially released for the Revue, so I can't comment on how "good" that combination will be. However, without Honeycomb (or without the promise of Honeycomb) I would skip the Revue and just "tough it out" with the Boxee Box.

Right now, there is no clear winner unless you are okay with using iTunes as your content library with the Apple TV 2 (and there is nothing really wrong with doing that). I've converted a good number of videos to work with the Apple TV and iTunes (i.e. rip the DVD, compress to H.264, serve to the Apple TV) and if you're up to doing that work then the Apple TV can be a wonderful device. The Apple TV also has AirPlay which is a great feature in itself and something that is only likely to get better with time (as far as I know, AirPlay-like capabilities can only be matched by running Android on the Revue).

However, if you tend to be a bit of a geek or like to collect "free" video from wherever you may find it on the internet then the Apple TV may not be a good choice for you.

Although I'm an engineer and a major geek myself, I'm not into hacking my home media players so I can't comment on running unreleased software or performing "hacks" on any of the products you've brought into question.

maximus96
Aug 13, 2011, 12:15 AM
but with xbmc on the appletv you are no longer dependent on itunes right?

DrEnalg
Aug 13, 2011, 09:31 AM
but with xbmc on the appletv you are no longer dependent on itunes right?

Correct.

bookwormsy
Aug 13, 2011, 09:42 AM
Between the Revue and one of the Rokus, which would be better? 200 for the Boxee is a bit too steep.

thetruth1985
Aug 13, 2011, 07:18 PM
I don't know if a jailbroken atv can get navi-films but if it can't, I highly suggest you to get the boxee. Even though it's more expensive, it will pay for itself much more quickly than the other boxes if you know what I mean :)

newagemac
Aug 14, 2011, 08:45 AM
You don't have to jailbreak or convert your avis, mkv, or 1080p to play on the Apple TV. Just use the Air Video app and Airplay it to the Apple TV. It works awesome. There are several others that do it too including the Plex iOS app but Air Video is top notch.

Che Castro
Aug 14, 2011, 12:36 PM
I don't know if a jailbroken atv can get navi-films but if it can't, I highly suggest you to get the boxee. Even though it's more expensive, it will pay for itself much more quickly than the other boxes if you know what I mean :)
you mean navi-x ?

yes i have that on my apple tv

----------

You don't have to jailbreak or convert your avis, mkv, or 1080p to play on the Apple TV. Just use the Air Video app and Airplay it to the Apple TV. It works awesome. There are several others that do it too including the Plex iOS app but Air Video is top notch.
the quality of the picture wont be as good

better to jailobreak & use xbmc to play 1080p mkv

bookwormsy
Aug 14, 2011, 03:25 PM
Is there a jailbreak for the latest firmware? And isn't XBMC buggy on ATV?

Dokk
Aug 15, 2011, 04:29 PM
Is there a jailbreak for the latest firmware? And isn't XBMC buggy on ATV?

There isn't a jailbreak yet, but they are close. See this thread (post #14) about the jailbreak using Seas0npass -- should be out this week: http://forum.firecore.com/topic/5119?page=1

As for XBMC, it's pretty stable if you use the stable release. I get a crash every now and then, but it's very usable. Navi-X and IceFilms work well. Hulu+ works well, too. For a nice, easy install of everything, I recommend the ATV Flash (black) bundle -- it's worth the $20 for the convenience of installing a bunch of stuff.

danpass
Aug 15, 2011, 04:41 PM
I have the ATV2 and am very happy with it.

Anything I rip that I want to stream is first run thru Handbrake.

Its an extra step over jailbreaking the device but I never have to wonder about a new update.

newagemac
Aug 15, 2011, 04:57 PM
I have the ATV2 and am very happy with it.

Anything I rip that I want to stream is first run thru Handbrake.

Its an extra step over jailbreaking the device but I never have to wonder about a new update.

Exactly. This is the hands down best experience you will get currently. This is exactly what I do for the few videos that are not on the h.264 bandwagon yet. And if I'm in a pinch and have a video that isn't in h.264 format yet, I just use Air Video to play it on the Apple TV.

And now with the Apple TV using iCloud, I will be transitioning my purchases to iTunes now and saving all the costs and headaches of storing and backing up content. It's just for TV shows now but it is almost a foregone conclusion they will be using iCloud for movies too.

nebo1ss
Aug 15, 2011, 06:53 PM
I have the ATV2 and am very happy with it.

Anything I rip that I want to stream is first run thru Handbrake.

Its an extra step over jailbreaking the device but I never have to wonder about a new update.

You cannot run a .avi file through handbrake. It would also be impractical for most people. I have 90 percent of my media collection as .avi files. I would have been happy to purchase apple TV and save the money I spent on my MAC Mini if it did what I needed. I run a Macmini with Plex which can play any format and has a great UI. Its not the cheapest option but it works.

bookwormsy
Aug 15, 2011, 06:58 PM
I have the ATV2 and am very happy with it.

Anything I rip that I want to stream is first run thru Handbrake.

Its an extra step over jailbreaking the device but I never have to wonder about a new update.

Its much too inconvenient, unless theres a way to automate it.


There isn't a jailbreak yet, but they are close. See this thread (post #14) about the jailbreak using Seas0npass -- should be out this week: http://forum.firecore.com/topic/5119?page=1

As for XBMC, it's pretty stable if you use the stable release. I get a crash every now and then, but it's very usable. Navi-X and IceFilms work well. Hulu+ works well, too. For a nice, easy install of everything, I recommend the ATV Flash (black) bundle -- it's worth the $20 for the convenience of installing a bunch of stuff.

About how long is it between ATV firmware release and jailbreak, on average? and what exactly is ATV Flash? Is it a jailbreak, or plugin, or what? And if I jailbreak an ATV, what are the benefits? What are some useful plugins or addons etc?

slothrob
Aug 15, 2011, 09:28 PM
You cannot run a .avi file through handbrake
Yes, you can. I ran a bunch of my old .avi's thru HB and they actually seemed to re-encode faster than .vob files.
Its much too inconvenient, unless theres a way to automate it.
That's essentially what the cue does in HB. Take a few minutes to cue up a list of a dozen things to run through HB, into the Automatically Add to iTunes folder, and they'll be done and loaded in iTunes when you get home from work or by the time you wake up in the morning.

bookwormsy
Aug 15, 2011, 09:59 PM
Yes, you can. I ran a bunch of my old .avi's thru HB and they actually seemed to re-encode faster than .vob files.

That's essentially what the cue does in HB. Take a few minutes to cue up a list of a dozen things to run through HB, into the Automatically Add to iTunes folder, and they'll be done and loaded in iTunes when you get home from work or by the time you wake up in the morning.

Is there a thing to monitor folders and automatically transcode the avi when it appears?

Dokk
Aug 17, 2011, 04:09 PM
About how long is it between ATV firmware release and jailbreak, on average? and what exactly is ATV Flash? Is it a jailbreak, or plugin, or what? And if I jailbreak an ATV, what are the benefits? What are some useful plugins or addons etc?

1. I don't know how long it usually is. I'm new enough to the ATV that this is the first time I've had to wait. No bother to me, though -- I'm sticking with the "old" firmware (which works fine) until the new jailbreak comes out.

2. ATV Flash (black) is a package of plugins that automates/simplifies the installation process. It's a convenience thing. For example, rather than install XBMC via the command line after SSHing in to the ATV, ATV Flash (black) installs a package that allows me to easily install XBMC and other things within the ATV interface. It doesn't offer *much* more than other, freely available scripts (with the exception of their Media Player, which is nice), but it's convenient.

3. Why jailbreak? Well ... there are plenty of threads around here about that. For me, I jailbreaked to (a) be able to play a wider range of content on the ATV (e.g., XVID files stored on a NAS drive), (b) to get access to all the free TV offerings through XBMC, and (c) to get access to Hulu+. Why not just build an HTPC? The ATV is cheaper, prettier, and has a great interface. I have a Roku on my bedroom TV (too old for an ATV) and prefer the ATV a LOT more than the Roku. The ATV is a better user experience, which is important to me and to my wife.

Hope that helps.

----------

Is there a thing to monitor folders and automatically transcode the avi when it appears?

You could probably do something like that with Automator; but I'm not aware of a ready-made script. It wouldn't surprise me if one was out there, though. Try this:

http://tinyurl.com/3z3mh6o

;)

bookwormsy
Aug 17, 2011, 06:32 PM
1. I don't know how long it usually is. I'm new enough to the ATV that this is the first time I've had to wait. No bother to me, though -- I'm sticking with the "old" firmware (which works fine) until the new jailbreak comes out.

2. ATV Flash (black) is a package of plugins that automates/simplifies the installation process. It's a convenience thing. For example, rather than install XBMC via the command line after SSHing in to the ATV, ATV Flash (black) installs a package that allows me to easily install XBMC and other things within the ATV interface. It doesn't offer *much* more than other, freely available scripts (with the exception of their Media Player, which is nice), but it's convenient.

3. Why jailbreak? Well ... there are plenty of threads around here about that. For me, I jailbreaked to (a) be able to play a wider range of content on the ATV (e.g., XVID files stored on a NAS drive), (b) to get access to all the free TV offerings through XBMC, and (c) to get access to Hulu+. Why not just build an HTPC? The ATV is cheaper, prettier, and has a great interface. I have a Roku on my bedroom TV (too old for an ATV) and prefer the ATV a LOT more than the Roku. The ATV is a better user experience, which is important to me and to my wife.

Hope that helps.

----------



You could probably do something like that with Automator; but I'm not aware of a ready-made script. It wouldn't surprise me if one was out there, though. Try this:

http://tinyurl.com/3z3mh6o

;)

Haha if i have XBMC on ATV do I need to use Handbrake or does it support avi playback

Dokk
Aug 21, 2011, 11:21 AM
Haha if i have XBMC on ATV do I need to use Handbrake or does it support avi playback

It supports AVI playback.

mds
Aug 21, 2011, 12:32 PM
I received an ATV2 as a gift and set it up yesterday. Within an hour I had JB'd it with Seas0npass, installed XMBC, and was able to watch AVIs streaming off my MBA (via SMB). It is a killer little set up.

Mhaddy
Sep 8, 2011, 07:37 AM
I have an ATV1 with Boxee connected to my NAS where all of my media is stored. It works great, but it's a little slow navigating the menus and playing any type of online content.

I'd like to get the ATV2 + jb + boxee to achieve the same thing, just with more power under the hood, which should solve my problems. At $100 (or cheaper if found used on the Marketplace), it's a very attractive option. What I'd like to know is, am I gaining anything by spending an extra ~$100 to get the Boxee box, with the exception of that killer remote and a slightly enhanced UI?

blevins321
Sep 8, 2011, 07:45 AM
I have an ATV1 with Boxee connected to my NAS where all of my media is stored. It works great, but it's a little slow navigating the menus and playing any type of online content.

I'd like to get the ATV2 + jb + boxee to achieve the same thing, just with more power under the hood, which should solve my problems. At $100 (or cheaper if found used on the Marketplace), it's a very attractive option. What I'd like to know is, am I gaining anything by spending an extra ~$100 to get the Boxee box, with the exception of that killer remote and a slightly enhanced UI?

I've been doing rounds with the various players..Tried ATV2, currently have Boxee, and waiting for ATV1 from eBay. ATV2 just seemed a bit too glitchy for me. The Boxee Box remote is awesome (although numbers are a PITA), but there's just something about the UI that I dislike. It's also very glitchy when you have a large library like mine. Slow to respond, scraping takes forever, and crashes more often than excusable.

I think I'll be returning the Boxee to the store and enjoying my soon-to-be-hacked ATV1 running XBMC. Might mod it with the CrystalHD card, but my TV is only 720p, so I'll only do it if I need a little more decoding power.

Mhaddy
Sep 8, 2011, 11:31 AM
JB ATV2 is glitchy?

Stovepiper
Sep 8, 2011, 12:56 PM
The value of the ATV 2 can't be beat in my opinion. AirPlay is a huge selling point. Jailbreaking with SeasonPass is ridiculously easy and aTV Flash (black) will give you everything you need to play any file format on the device, without having to mess with XBMC or Plex if you don't want to.

I currently only have one ATV in my living room but plan to roll out additional boxes to the kitchen, bedrooms, and den in the coming weeks. Those coupled with an Airport Express for driving outdoor speakers will give a whole house audio/video experience that can't be matched by any other products, especially for the price.

dgalvan123
Sep 8, 2011, 01:39 PM
Have only used ATV2, but I see no reason to change.

Roku doesn't let you stream your home movies and photo library easily, as far as I know, so that means it won't meet my needs. And we are an iOS device family, so the lack of airplay from the other devices would hurt as well.

I have had ATV2 since it came out last year, and have mainly used it for showing photo slideshows from iPhoto (just plug in your camera to import the photos into iPhoto, and they photos are available on your TV screen without you having to do anything else!) and home movies via iTunes, as well as Netflix and Youtube, and my wife uses it as a radio to listen to NPR. Also very useful for Airplay, since it is easier to search for youtube videos on my iphone than it is on the ATV2, so I just find the video on the phone and then airplay it. Also any videos I take of my 16 month-old son on my iphone 4 i can just airplay to the TV to show off to family/friends immediately after taking the video. Very convenient. Plus you can airplay audio from just about any app (I use the iphone 4 This American Life app to listen to radio stories, which I just airplay to the ATV2 for the better speakers.)

All those features are built-in and require no jailbreaking.

Just last week I finally jail-broke the ATV2 using seasonpass (for ATV2 firmware 4.3), which added the following useful functionality:

--Hulu access (WITHOUT COMMERCIALS!) using XBMC (downloadable from NitoTV after you jailbreak) and the bluecop repository. This actually works surprisingly well and takes me one step closer to "cutting the cord", since there are only a few cable shows I watch and those are mostly available on Hulu (ie: Daily Show). I've watched several Daily Show and Colbert Report episodes and the quality is great (clean-looking 480p, I think). The lack of commercials is fantastic.

--Ability to stream any non-iTunes movie files from my computer (via XBMC and Plex). This is handy because I currently use EyeTV on my mac to record shows from an OTA antenna. Before jailbreaking, I had been telling eyetv to transcode the shows to iTunes so I could watch them on ATV2. That works fine, but it takes a while to transcode the shows. Now, with XBMC, that last step is unnecessary since I can just directly stream the eyetv native files immediately after they are done recording. Plex is supposed to be able to do this as well, but at the moment the ATV2 version of Plex is still being fixed, since the latest ATV2 firwmare (4.3 with Vimeo) threw some bugs into Plex. XBMC works fine for this right now though.

--There are other jailbreak-enabled functionalities that are now available which I probably won't use very much (weather page, and all the other features of Plex and XBMC), but it's nice to have the versatility available to me.

Before I jail-broke, I had been considering cutting the cord by getting a mac mini and making it into a HTPC, since that would replace my Dish network DVR, using eyetv and my antenna for broadcast network shows, and Hulu and TV show websites for everything else. But now that I have Hulu access on the ATV2, and quicker access to my eyetv files, there are fewer reasons to put up the $600 for a full computer: the jailbroken ATV2 does 95% of what I want, for $100.

If I pony up another $20 for ATV Flash (black), I'd also get a web browser on the ATV2 (Couch Surfer Pro), which would allow me to use EyeTV's Live 3G service to watch live TV on the ATV2 as well (as long as you have EyeTV running on your mac). So that would get me the ability to watch and pause live network TV as well! (see demo of that here: http://vimeo.com/22406949)

Hard to beat that value. And Apple has been pretty good about updating the ATV2 (a significant update every 3-4 months since I bought it: first Airplay, then NBA MLB, then Vimeo, etc.)

Mhaddy
Sep 9, 2011, 08:47 AM
Thanks for the feedback everyone! Looks like ATV2 is the way to go.

DustinT
Sep 9, 2011, 09:37 AM
I'd use an Apple TV without jailbreaking it at all. Just use iFlicks (I love iFlicks) to add the content to iTunes and it will automatically show up in your Apple TV. Your parents will have no problems using it and it requires no hacks at all. Its a fully supported system from Apple.

iFlicks is a one time purchase from the App Store, I think its $10-20? Its well worth the money since it automates the entire process of adding TV and movies to an iTunes library. I've used it to que up several seasons of TV shows and it will flawlessly make them all show up with all the metadata (who's in it, what its about, etc...)

This is a stable, reliable, cheap and fully supported solution that is very low maintenance.

Mhaddy
Oct 5, 2011, 07:13 AM
Thanks for the feedback everyone! Looks like ATV2 is the way to go.

Just a follow-up to this post: ended up with a Boxee Box and absolutely love it. More thoughts are posted in this thread here (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=13475251&postcount=15).

From A Buick 8
Oct 8, 2011, 09:04 PM
Have only used ATV2, but I see no reason to change.

Roku doesn't let you stream your home movies and photo library easily, as far as I know, so that means it won't meet my needs. And we are an iOS device family, so the lack of airplay from the other devices would hurt as well.



Well i just bought a Roku 2 XS. So far i do like the extra content that you have access too using their channel store (The ATV needs an App store). You can instal a Plex channel that will let you stream all of your local content.

The Ui on the Roku is clumsy and not as polished as the ATV2. Our set up is using both boxes and just switching between them as needed.

kevindosi
Oct 9, 2011, 04:09 AM
You can't beat the boxee box for your needs. It beats the Apple TV in every way except price, as far as I'm concerned.

chrisc983
Oct 9, 2011, 11:54 AM
The Ui on the Roku is clumsy and not as polished as the ATV2. Our set up is using both boxes and just switching between them as needed.

Do you still have cable or does this replace the need for it?

Che Castro
Oct 9, 2011, 11:59 AM
Ive had the roku,google tv & apple tv

And nothing beats the jailbroken apple tv with icefilms

Airforcekid
Oct 9, 2011, 02:09 PM
Apple tv + icefilms >>>>>>

Boxee + IceFilms though im glad I found megaupload through it very nice to have unlimited storage for backup and pictures.

Che Castro
Oct 9, 2011, 04:08 PM
Boxee + IceFilms though im glad I found megaupload through it very nice to have unlimited storage for backup and pictures.

Apple tv is cheaper than a boxee

From A Buick 8
Oct 9, 2011, 05:56 PM
Do you still have cable or does this replace the need for it?

We cut cable back in Oct 2010, right after we picked up our second ATV. So far we have been fine without it.

Airforcekid
Oct 9, 2011, 06:14 PM
Apple tv is cheaper than a boxee

No hacking/jailbreaking on boxee and it feels more native plus hd isn't choppy.

Che Castro
Oct 9, 2011, 07:07 PM
No hacking/jailbreaking on boxee and it feels more native plus hd isn't choppy.

Can you do airplay on the boxee from other ios devices ?

Which if your on this forum means you have an apple product

Checkmate

Airforcekid
Oct 11, 2011, 01:12 PM
Can you do airplay on the boxee from other ios devices ?

Which if your on this forum means you have an apple product

Checkmate

Yeah it was in the last update.

Boxee Labs
We’ve also got something from the “wouldn’t it be cool if Boxee could..” department – one of our engineers has been playing around with AirPlay and we’ve included it as an experimental part of this release. When you click on the AirPlay button on your iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch you will now see your Boxee Box as one of the target devices. Give it a try and let us know what you think!

JoeShades
Oct 11, 2011, 02:52 PM
HBO go is coming to ROKU, that is a big addition

Sparky9292
Oct 11, 2011, 11:26 PM
Yes, you can. I ran a bunch of my old .avi's thru HB and they actually seemed to re-encode faster than .vob files.
.

Which is really stupid to do. Handbrake will transcode both the video and audio which about 90% of the time you don't need to do.

All of the major TV and Movie releases in AVI are in mpeg4 which plays native on the ATV2. In addition, the HD releases in MKV are always in h264 which ATV2 supports.

So you really only need to transcode audio and pass thru on the video.

While it takes you 6 hours to handbrake Thor.MKV, it takes me about 12 minutes to convert to M4V using MKVTools.

Just a tip....

downingp
Oct 20, 2011, 08:42 PM
Just out of curiosity, why hasn't anyone recommended the WD Live TV Hub or Plus? I have the hub and love it. Maybe I am missing something??

macUser2007
Dec 11, 2011, 03:07 AM
Just ordered Roku 2 XS.

Really wanted AirPlay, but XBMC on ATV2 seems too buggy, and I want Amazon Plus more than Airplay.

Boxee still seems to buggy.

I have a full-blown HTPC (running MCE, since it's still the best general use front-end), but had been looking for a Zone 2 device to play MOG. Then I decided I really want Amazon Prime in addition to Netflix.

They all suck in their own ways, but for my purposes, Roku is currently the one (we'll see for how long....)

crzdcolombian
Dec 20, 2011, 01:07 PM
HBO go is coming to ROKU, that is a big addition

Do you need cable to get HBO go? Or is it like NBA or NFL that you just give them 400 bucks or w/e and get it all season

testerdennis
Dec 20, 2011, 05:55 PM
I have 4 Apple TV2's and I just picked up a Roku 2 Hd to try. I have not turned on my Apple TV2 since getting this thing. I had one of my Apple TV'S jailbroken got sick and tired of things not working so I put it back to factory. IMO the Roku is what the ATV should be with Airplay. The Roku HD @ almost half the price is a winner.

am17
Dec 20, 2011, 10:36 PM
I had an Apple TV the past few months and loved it for Netflix, but that's about all it did for me. I just picked up a Roku 2 and am loving HBO Go (the main reason I got it), Amazon Instant Video, and Hulu Plus, all of which the Apple TV doesn't offer. Disappointed it didn't work out with AppleTV - I like the device and would prefer they simply open it up more - but I don't think I'll be looking back at all.