Thurrott says Longhorn has the makings of a train wreck

[Nermal]

In the cold light of morning, I'm reflecting a bit on Longhorn 5048. My thoughts are not positive, not positive at all. This is a painful build to have to deal with after a year of waiting, a step back in some ways. I hope Microsoft has surprises up their sleeves. This has the makings of a train wreck.

Source (http://www.windowsitpro.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=46175)

Interesting, he's usually very pro-Microsoft.

[PlaceofDis]

WoW :eek: maybe he is finally coming to his senses.... unlikey but you never know......

[Lacero]

Does he think Mac OSX Tiger would be a worthy competitor to Longhorn?

[GFLPraxis]

You beat me to posting this by two seconds.

Something I found amusing. I'm running the previous Alpha build of Longhorn. When I showed it to some guys here in a Tiger vs Longhorn thread they told me the thing was woefully old and Microsoft MUST have done so much more than then, and in the soon to be released beta would show more.

Guess not :D

It looks like they took the previous build (4074) and did some GUI tweaks (better than the hideous thing before, though similar) and removed the sidebar (THANK ALL THAT IS GOOD! It was HORRIBLE).

[clayj]

The question is, Will those of you who are rabidly anti-Thurrott give him any credit for publicly voicing a doubt about Longhorn?

Don't forget that at this early point in the product cycle, there are bound to be problems, and sometimes a "bad build" gets released (that's been inadvertantly destabilized for some reason). Whatever issues he has will no doubt be addressed.

[GFLPraxis]

BTW, this is what the previous build of LH looked like (4047, last Alpha).

http://gflpraxis.no-ip.com/lh1.jpg
http://localhost/lh1.jpg

See why I hate the sidebar?

The performance is hideous as well. My 900 MHz machine barely runs it at all, and the 64 MB graphics card (Geforce 2 MX 400, fastest Geforce 2 made excepting the TI series) is not enough for Aero.

Thurrot confirmed it won't be getting any better. Microsoft cites minimum requirements of 1 GHz processor and 512 MB of RAM. And we all know what Microsoft minimum requirements are.

Windows XP supposedly runs on a 233 MHz processor with 128 MB of RAM. Anyone who tries to use XP on 128 MB of RAM is committing virtual suicide.


If Microsoft cites 512 MB of RAM minimum, get a gig. XP doesn't perform well without at least 512 MB already.

[stoid]

Beautiful! I'm adding a quote from that article into my sig!

[Daveway]

Paul brought his Powerbook into the keynote, kinda drove the guys on his board a lil crazy. :p :)

I've looked at many builds of Longhorn and it looks worse than XP. The new UI better be good or this will never work.

[GFLPraxis]

Beautiful! I'm adding a quote from that article into my sig!


Here's another for you, his first good comments about OS X (in his Tiger review):
"...I am utterly impressed with Apple's ability to deliver with Mac OS X. As Jobs and Apple fans often note, Microsoft talks about Longhorn, but Apple just keeps plugging away with their OS. Good for them. And if you're into technology, you just have to love OS X.

"Grade: A. Mac OS X Tiger will be the best release of Mac OS X ever, and it will deliver on some Longhorn features about a year before Microsoft gets around to doing so."

[plinden]

BTW, this is what the previous build of LH looked like (4047, last Alpha).

image removed

See why I hate the sidebar?


My first reaction was "what the fsck is that?" Well, it can only get better ... can't it?

[Lacero]

Looks like they are focusing on adding fancy graphics, than actually improving usability or keeping it simple. The previous screenshot looks horrid. OMG.

[GFLPraxis]

My first reaction was "what the fsck is that?" Well, it can only get better ... can't it?

Yep, but between the build I posted and the new build (no builds released in between) was 10 months. VERY small improvement in that time. :(

That screenshot was taken off my own PC, fyi.


Looks like they are focusing on adding fancy graphics, than actually improving usability or keeping it simple. The previous screenshot looks horrid. OMG.

Oh trust me, it IS horrid ;)

My apologies for the Yahoo toolbar, my sister used my computer and apparently proved that Longhorn is so backwards compatible that Internet Explorer 7 can still run all the old spyware.

Also, explorer (not IE, I mean explorer.exe, Windows' equivilant of Finder) has really terrible performance. Just looking through folders, I mean. For one thing it tries to draw every single image file, replacing the small manageable icons with huge pictures, and even if you turn that off it goes annoyingly slow.


If Thurrott says the new build offers little improvements other than GUI...well DANG. Because the performance was so hideous I reinstalled XP. It wasn't usable. I had to install FireFox just to surf the web at a decent speed. And to make things worse, since my graphics card was "unsupported" by Aero (Geforce2 MX 400, 64 MB, as I said, fully capable of playing Jedi Academy in Windows XP and even SW Battlefront at minimum settings!), I couldn't do ANYTHING 3d, not even play a game.

[FoxyKaye]

This has the makings of a train wreck.

Well... DUH!

Having seen a few of the pre-gold master releases of Tiger on friends' machines, and comparing it to the only version of Longhorn I've seen, this only states the obvious.

I haven't seriously mucked around with pre-releases in years - not since the OS X public beta and the Windows 2000 corporate preview. However, it seems to me that a one-two punch of releasing Tiger now and a significant (hear that Apple?) hardware improvement in early 2006 might actually start turning the tide for Apple's market share. People are ranting now more than ever about security problems and Windows, and the bloated gassbag that is XP only gets worse with Longhorn - it's like M$ is trying to make basic computing incomprehensible and sluggish.

[Lacero]

Just from an outside obervation and reading the various tech headlines, it seems Microsoft lost focus on the direction to take, and feels as though the senior management told the development team to just create a competitor to OSX. But Microsoft has put the cart before the horse. Its like building a house first, and then figuring out how to build the foundation.

When OSX premiered in 2000, it took 7 years of previous developments in NeXT to reach this point. And it took Apple another 5 years to optimize and enhance OSX to the point where we now have Tiger.

Since Microsoft was kicked into action by Apple's surprising unveiling of OSX, it now has the unfathomable task of creating the next-gen OS, but how do you compete against BSD/Unix and Darwin? It'll be by at least 2008 before MS has anything usable to offer consumers, and another 5 years to reach the level of Tiger. Windows is 12 years behind OSX.

[stcanard]

The question is, Will those of you who are rabidly anti-Thurrott give him any credit for publicly voicing a doubt about Longhorn?

The answer is yes. But it seems to me that this is the harbinger of a change. It's been grassroots for a few years, and MS has been holding it off but it's becoming more difficult for even the most devout to accept.

Don't forget that at this early point in the product cycle, there are bound to be problems, and sometimes a "bad build" gets released (that's been inadvertantly destabilized for some reason). Whatever issues he has will no doubt be addressed.

There was a link from google news to another article by him on the same topic. The basic upshot is that he sees no improvement in this year's public beta over the last one released a year ago at WinHEC 2004, and in fact feels it's a backslide because of everything that's been taken out. Ahh, here we go A Cautionary Tale About the Burning Edge (http://www.connectedhomemag.com/HomeOffice/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=46181)

<OB Conspiracy Theory>I think it's no coincidence that Tiger will be release to the public mere days after a disappointing Longhorn public beta.

[eRondeau]

Microsoft has only one thing to thank for its success today: IBM. In 1980, IBM was getting its butt kicked in the exploding desktop computer market by companies like Commodore, Atari, and Apple. And IBM was in a big hurry to join the party. IBM had all the hardware plans for its new 8088 desktop computer in place, but the operating system software was a much different story. The problem was, IBM was a huge, bloated company with layer upon layer of management and bureaucracy that stood in the way to accomplishing anything quickly. Even IBM's own leadership optimistically guessed that it would take them 2-3 years to build a working operating system from scratch. Clearly this would not do. They had only one year to get their new computer to market, and IBM could not do it themselves.

In July 1980 the founder of a small software company called "Microsoft" answered a phone call and very soon after met with IBM's top executives. Bill Gates confidently said that only he could write the code they needed in the time available -- nobody else in the world was up to the task. But in order to do it, Microsoft wanted to keep full control of the software. This was completely unheard of -- a brash little programmer playing hardball with one of the richest companies in the world. However IBM realized they were stuck between a rock and hard place and Bill Gates was right. If they wanted their operating system within a year, they had to agree. So IBM and Microsoft entered into a deal that essentially saw IBM make money by selling the hardware, while Microsoft made money by selling IBM copies of their OS. IBM's PC was released on August 12, 1981 running exclusively on Microsoft software -- and the rest is history.

Of course almost 25 years later the irony is clear. In 2005 Microsoft has become IBM -- the bloated, bureaucratic dinosaur that now stands in the way of its own success. Admittedly developing Longhorn must be a massive undertaking, however so was MS-DOS 1.0 back in 1980. The development cycle of Longhorn is now five years (and counting) with no firm end in sight. Meanwhile the development time of virtually every other product is getting shorter and shorter. Perhaps Microsoft needs a history lesson, or at least a sharper focus on what it is really trying to accomplish. That is what Steve Jobs brought back to Apple, and that is what Microsoft now desperately needs.

In the ocean there's always a bigger fish. In technology there's always a smaller, faster, and more responsive competitor.

[homerjward]

snip
is it really true that microsoft bought DOS for $50k from some programmer somewhere after they had sold a non-existant product to IBM? or is that just in the pirates of silicon valley?

[Phat_Pat]

BTW, this is what the previous build of LH looked like (4047, last Alpha).

http://gflpraxis.no-ip.com/lh1.jpg
http://localhost/lh1.jpg

wow. That just looks like a horrible photoshop job. Not saying it is. Just saying it looks awful. :eek:

[GFLPraxis]

wow. That just looks like a horrible photoshop job. Not saying it is. Just saying it looks awful. :eek:

Since I didn't even attempt to install Photoshop on that computer being so slow, I did it in MS Paint (Longhorn's Paint finally adds TIFF support by the way! Some good news).

Paint's JPEG compression is HORRIBLE, so thats why it looks grainy.

[clayj]

is it really true that microsoft bought DOS for $50k from some programmer somewhere after they had sold a non-existant product to IBM? or is that just in the pirates of silicon valley?Here's the actual sequence of events:

1. IBM approaches Microsoft to see if they can make an OS for IBM's new PC. Bill Gates tells them no, he can't do it in the amount of time that's available. He refers IBM to Gary Kildall, who ran Digital Research Inc. (DRI).

2. Kildall is out of the country flying when IBM calls, and he essentially blows them off when he hears that IBM wants to talk to him. (I might have this item slightly wrong, but the jist of it is correct: DRI blew off IBM.)

3. Meanwhile, Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer buy QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System) from Tim Paterson for $50,000 and a job with Microsoft.

4. IBM returns to Microsoft, and Bill tells them, "We've got an OS for you."

[GFLPraxis]

is it really true that microsoft bought DOS for $50k from some programmer somewhere after they had sold a non-existant product to IBM? or is that just in the pirates of silicon valley?

Oh no, thats very true.

However, that version of DOS was really pathetic. They had to copy some features of UNIX such as directories (now know as folders) after buying it before they gave it to IBM ;)

Then when Windows came out they copied some of MacOS's GUI, and for Windows NT took some of IBM's OS/2 source code...lol

[ravenvii]

LOL, even in it's infancy, Microsoft was buying and copying!

And now it's gotten so big it cannot copy fast anymore!

:D

[stcanard]

2. Kildall is out of the country flying when IBM calls, and he essentially blows them off when he hears that IBM wants to talk to him. (I might have this item slightly wrong, but the jist of it is correct: DRI blew off IBM.)

As I understand it, they were wary of the NDA. In retrospect we can laugh, but given what was happnening in the time it was something to think about, it might have limited future opportunities.

[broken_keyboard]

In the article he says the following under the 5:50pm section:

Paul Thurrott: "This one's bizarre, but we heard at lunch today that Apple is unhappy with the PowerPC production at IBM and will be switching to Intel-compatible cheaps this very year. Yeah, seriously."

[stcanard]

LOL, even in it's infancy, Microsoft was buying and copying!

And now it's gotten so big it cannot copy fast anymore!

:D

To be serious a moment, you hit the nail on the head!

This highlights that Gates strength has never been as a technical pundit, it's always been as a brilliant businessman. Don't forget, not only did he see the value of QDOS that not even the creator did, but he negotiated with a monopoly that he had the right to sell to their competitors! (and those arrived pretty fast).

His problem is he has come to see believe he is a technical pundit, and so MS keeps getting behind the curve and playing catchup.

[stcanard]

In the article he says the following under the 5:50pm section:

Paul Thurrott: "This one's bizarre, but we heard at lunch today that Apple is unhappy with the PowerPC production at IBM and will be switching to Intel-compatible cheaps this very year. Yeah, seriously."

Nahh, he's been predicting that for years.

[calyxman]

See why I hate the sidebar?

The performance is hideous as well. My 900 MHz machine barely runs it at all, and the 64 MB graphics card (Geforce 2 MX 400, fastest Geforce 2 made excepting the TI series) is not enough for Aero.

Thurrot confirmed it won't be getting any better. Microsoft cites minimum requirements of 1 GHz processor and 512 MB of RAM. And we all know what Microsoft minimum requirements are.

Windows XP supposedly runs on a 233 MHz processor with 128 MB of RAM. Anyone who tries to use XP on 128 MB of RAM is committing virtual suicide.


If Microsoft cites 512 MB of RAM minimum, get a gig. XP doesn't perform well without at least 512 MB already.

Well if that's the case, then we can kiss newer versions of Virtual PC goodbye because running WinXP/2000 in OS X is fair if not slow already.

Also, you guys can down on this new release of Windows, just like you dissed XP, just like you dissed 2000, ME, and 98, and 95, and 3.11, 3.1, 3.0...the list goes on. Yet after all these years Microsoft stays the 800 pound gorrilla in the software industry. Meanwhile Apple is crawling through the rainforest with it's declining marketshare.

[James Philp]

Well if that's the case, then we can kiss newer versions of Virtual PC goodbye because running WinXP/2000 in OS X is fair if not slow already.

Also, you guys can down on this new release of Windows, just like you dissed XP, just like you dissed 2000, ME, and 98, and 95, and 3.11, 3.1, 3.0...the list goes on. Yet after all these years Microsoft stays the 800 pound gorrilla in the software industry. Meanwhile Apple is crawling through the rainforest with it's declining marketshare.
Microsoft may be the 800 pound gorilla but you are a scrawny 80 pound TROLL!!!
P.S. I think apple are a 1200 pound Liger!

[GFLPraxis]

In the article he says the following under the 5:50pm section:

Paul Thurrott: "This one's bizarre, but we heard at lunch today that Apple is unhappy with the PowerPC production at IBM and will be switching to Intel-compatible cheaps this very year. Yeah, seriously."

"heard at lunch".

That means it was not an official statement, because they don't have people on stage during lunch.

So its just gossip.

[Maedus]

He was probably the one telling it to everybody at lunch. :p

[Inspector Lee]

The question is, Will those of you who are rabidly anti-Thurrott give him any credit for publicly voicing a doubt about Longhorn?


Negative. A leopard doesn't change its spots. This "criticism" was pretty weak. It definitely wasn't the bite the hand that feeds you type but more along the lines of flipping somebody off at a bus stop as you drive by going 45... In essence, there is nothing behind it.

re: intel chips

Didn't Apple try this 10-12 years ago? One of the Apple history books talks about the engineers holing up in a hotel together for a few weeks and trying to make it work - all in secrecy. I remember this because the guys would take breaks and go down to the nearby arcade to play some game. After a while, they bought the video game and put it in the room. But it fell through at the end.

Intel is big with "the people" and might sell more systems on name alone. When I tell people IBM makes the processors, I see that look, that look of confusion...

[Phobophobia]

Meanwhile Apple is crawling through the rainforest with it's declining marketshare.

A complete lie. Apple's marketshare has been increasing in AT LEAST the past three quarters. It's a bit pointless to try to pass stuff like that by when there are Apple shareholders here. :P

[Maedus]

A complete lie. Apple's marketshare has been increasing in AT LEAST the past three quarters. It's a bit pointless to try to pass stuff like that by when there are Apple shareholders here. :P

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=121433
But that's ok, that's what most of you are for. You're supposed to buy their stock and believe the future of Apple is all nice and rosy. Just like you're told you're buying the greatest hardware and software when you pay those crazy prices for your powermacs/powerbooks.

I guess that's what "loyalty" is all about.

But stockholding macheads only think Apple's marketshare is increasing because the almighty Steve Jobs tells you so. Or at least that is how it is according to some people.

I personally believe that Microsoft may be the 800 pound gorilla, but Apple is the one trailblazing through the rain forest and creating the paths that the gorilla can only follow. ;)

[stubeeef]

Apple is selling more machines than ever before (me thinks) but since the market is growing, 3% is a lot more machines. To grow 33% up to 4% will take even more sales than ever before, and will it will continue to get larger. It is a mistake to chase market share, as an example read "From Worst to First", the turnaround of continental airlines. Don't get me wrong, market share is important, just not THE indicator. As long as the entity "Apple" is profitable, there will be Mac's. Bigger market share and prolonged losses, and Mac is no more.

edit: btw how many computers did ms sell? could it be zero? If windows sells computers what happened to gateway?

[Bigheadache]

A complete lie. Apple's marketshare has been increasing in AT LEAST the past three quarters. It's a bit pointless to try to pass stuff like that by when there are Apple shareholders here. :P

Mac sales may be growing but the global total market for desktop computers is growing at a faster rate, so as a % of total market share, Macs are actually decreasing. Remember that Macs have no penetration in places like China and India and East Asia which are starting to see rapid takeup in desktop computers. (a fair number of them are probably running pirated Windows)

[calyxman]

Microsoft may be the 800 pound gorilla but you are a scrawny 80 pound TROLL!!!
P.S. I think apple are a 1200 pound Liger!

Oh my, another one calls me a troll for being on the other side of opinion. Let's see, I'm using an iBook and I happen to be running Panther with iTunes playing in the background, and I happen to be typing in Safari...what did you say I was again? May you can't stand someone disagreeing with you, huh? :rolleyes:

A complete lie. Apple's marketshare has been increasing in AT LEAST the past three quarters. It's a bit pointless to try to pass stuff like that by when there are Apple shareholders here. :P

http://www.macobserver.com/article/2004/01/15.15.shtml
http://www.macworld.com/news/2002/07/03/marketshare/
http://www.macobserver.com/article/2005/04/15.14.shtml

We started off in the good old days at 5%, now we're below 4%, worldwide below 3%. Hardly anything to get excited about. A little more on this later.

Apple is selling more machines than ever before (me thinks) but since the market is growing, 3% is a lot more machines. To grow 33% up to 4% will take even more sales than ever before, and will it will continue to get larger. It is a mistake to chase market share, as an example read "From Worst to First", the turnaround of continental airlines. Don't get me wrong, market share is important, just not THE indicator. As long as the entity "Apple" is profitable, there will be Mac's. Bigger market share and prolonged losses, and Mac is no more.

edit: btw how many computers did ms sell? could it be zero? If windows sells computers what happened to gateway?

This actually sheds light on why Apple will always be behind no matter how great OS X is: Apple is straddling two divisions at the same time, software and hardware. You don't see MS out there building boxes (except for the x-box). They don't care, as long as enough vendors are pushing systems out there with Windows pre-installed. It's not just MS that's overpowering Apple, it's Dell, HP, Sony, et al. that are suffocating Apple.

Not many years ago there was a point when finally Apple licensed its OS to companies that wanted to build clones. Who came and killed the project? Need I say his name?

Marketshare isn't simply about profits--although if you look at Microsft they got best of both worlds. It's also about creating a wider acceptance of your platform. Walk into any business today, and I'll bet you 9 times out of 10 they'll be running a Windows box. Go to an insurance office, a real estate office, hospital, local government, bank, etc. Why are they running Windows? It's not because they hate Apple or because they're ignorant. Windows is the only platform you can use in these businesses knowing full well that you can use the software written for any of these industries, and by software I'm not just talking about MS Office.

I'm in the mortgage business. Would I get very far with a Mac? Hell no! There's so many loan origination programs out there yet only one is written for the mac and it happens to run in classic. It's called Loanvision and it's clunky and doesn't come close to the other loan origination programs out there.

The bottom line is if you ignore the business segment, you can kiss the market share race goodbye. And I don't think Apple is wrapping its hopes up in the consumer line. Porting iTunes and iPod for Windows practically weakens the argument of convincing someone to switch from Windows to Mac. How about the latest round of iPods released, remember when Apple dropped their own cable Firewire and left USB 2.0 in the package? Was Apple catering to its loyal Mac users when they did that?

Anyway, there's no use in beating a dead horse as nothing will change as long as Jobs is at the helm.

[sorryiwasdreami]

wow. That just looks like a horrible photoshop job. Not saying it is. Just saying it looks awful. :eek:

Yeah, I agree. It almost looks like an old XP shareware program's Gui. Maybe like the Nero trial version or something. I almost feel bad for it.

[machobson]

They probably pushed ahead Longhorn's release ahead a year so that they could copy all the good features in Tiger and have enough time to get it stable enough so it runs for 10 mins after you install it. :p

[CorvusCamenarum]

Source (http://www.windowsitpro.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=46175)

Interesting, he's usually very pro-Microsoft.

Is 5048 the build version or the release year?

[James Philp]

Oh my, another one calls me a troll for being on the other side of opinion. Let's see, I'm using an iBook and I happen to be running Panther with iTunes playing in the background, and I happen to be typing in Safari...what did you say I was again? May you can't stand someone disagreeing with you, huh? :rolleyes:
I didn't see any disagreement in:
Well if that's the case, then we can kiss newer versions of Virtual PC goodbye because running WinXP/2000 in OS X is fair if not slow already.

Also, you guys can down on this new release of Windows, just like you dissed XP, just like you dissed 2000, ME, and 98, and 95, and 3.11, 3.1, 3.0...the list goes on. Yet after all these years Microsoft stays the 800 pound gorrilla in the software industry. Meanwhile Apple is crawling through the rainforest with it's declining marketshare.
That looks more like a statement than a disagreement!
Your post:
1. Did not have anything to do with the topic of the thread
2. Did not state what you disagreed with
3. Has a ddefinite negative tone, for example:
"despite being far superior and running a Mac on OS X, we have to admit that MS still dominates the platform market, with large PC manufacturers showing increased market share"
This statement is a lot less trollish than:
"Apple is crawling through the rainforest"
Sorry I offended you so much by calling you a troll.
I still don't see how any of your post relates to:
"Thurrott says Longhorn has the makings of a train wreck"
though? ;)

[calyxman]

They probably pushed ahead Longhorn's release ahead a year so that they could copy all the good features in Tiger and have enough time to get it stable enough so it runs for 10 mins after you install it. :p

If I'm not mistaken, who did Apple "get" their idea for Dashboard? Ever heard of Konfabulator? Where was all the fuss about that ripoff, which was so blatant that the minds at Cupertino even decided to take the name "Widgets?" How about Launchbar and Watson? Ever heard of those?

No offense to all you die hard mac heads, but I wouldn't be flapping your lips about who's copying what.

[calyxman]

I didn't see any disagreement in:

That looks more like a statement than a disagreement!
Your post:
1. Did not have anything to do with the topic of the thread
2. Did not state what you disagreed with
3. Has a ddefinite negative tone, for example:
"despite being far superior and running a Mac on OS X, we have to admit that MS still dominates the platform market, with large PC manufacturers showing increased market share"
This statement is a lot less trollish than:
"Apple is crawling through the rainforest"
Sorry I offended you so much by calling you a troll.
I still don't see how any of your post relates to:
"Thurrott says Longhorn has the makings of a train wreck"
though? ;)

Ok, so everybody else's snide comments about Windows get a pass but I somehow get a "troll" litmus test. WTF is that all about?

Honestly, this troll name-calling is stupid and I don't care what anyone thinks around here. I'll voice my opinions because of what I believe. If you don't like it, then ignore it and move on with your life.

[machobson]

If I'm not mistaken, who did Apple "get" their idea for Dashboard? Ever heard of Konfabulator? Where was all the fuss about that ripoff, which was so blatant that the minds at Cupertino even decided to take the name "Widgets?" How about Launchbar and Watson? Ever heard of those?

No offense to all you die hard mac heads, but I wouldn't be flapping your lips about who's copying what.

I didn't deny Apple copying anything, every company does it, we wouldn't have made advancements in technology like we have today if no one did it. Lots of companies do it including Microsoft and Apple. Some more than others.

[James Philp]

Ok, so everybody else's snide comments about Windows get a pass but I somehow get a "troll" litmus test. WTF is that all about?

Honestly, this troll name-calling is stupid and I don't care what anyone thinks around here. I'll voice my opinions because of what I believe. If you don't like it, then ignore it and move on with your life.
Done! :)

[stubeeef]

Not many years ago there was a point when finally Apple licensed its OS to companies that wanted to build clones. Who came and killed the project? Need I say his name?

Marketshare isn't simply about profits--although if you look at Microsft they got best of both worlds. It's also about creating a wider acceptance of your platform. Walk into any business today, and I'll bet you 9 times out of 10 they'll be running a Windows box. Go to an insurance office, a real estate office, hospital, local government, bank, etc. Why are they running Windows? It's not because they hate Apple or because they're ignorant. Windows is the only platform you can use in these businesses knowing full well that you can use the software written for any of these industries, and by software I'm not just talking about MS Office.

I'm in the mortgage business. Would I get very far with a Mac? Hell no! There's so many loan origination programs out there yet only one is written for the mac and it happens to run in classic. It's called Loanvision and it's clunky and doesn't come close to the other loan origination programs out there.


Anyway, there's no use in beating a dead horse as nothing will change as long as Jobs is at the helm.

Granted Apple made a few mistakes in it's biz model, and as long as HP, D3ll, Gateway and others continue to make windows boxes instead of linux and/or the next OS, ms will be fine. If on the other hand they stop, what will be the avenue for ms? the odds of them stopping now is nearly nil but none the less, that maybe approaching 1% and in 5 yrs 3% and ...........

SJ has brought Apple back, put your finacial hat back on and tell me who could take over apple, boot SJ, and not watch the stock drop to breakup value? While he may be some's bane, he is also the oxygen at Apple.
The scientific community is seeing a switch to Mac, and maybe soon, there will also be more apps written in the biz community as well. I own a small storage business and built my apps on office for the emac there. there is no question who has the market, like beta vs vhs, apple has the better product but not the market share. Unlike beta I believe Apple will survive because of the vision SJ has and MS is losing it.

[GFLPraxis]

Mac sales may be growing but the global total market for desktop computers is growing at a faster rate, so as a % of total market share, Macs are actually decreasing. Remember that Macs have no penetration in places like China and India and East Asia which are starting to see rapid takeup in desktop computers. (a fair number of them are probably running pirated Windows)

You're forgetting that market share /= installed user base.

Market share is the amount sold.

Mac users buy new systems a lot less often than PC users, therefore, the sales are deceptively high. If you compare the installed user base- aka, the amount of people who use Macs vs the amount of people who use PC's- rather than the market share (amount of people who bought Macs vs amount of people who bought PC's this quarter), the Mac looks much higher.

[GFLPraxis]

If I'm not mistaken, who did Apple "get" their idea for Dashboard? Ever heard of Konfabulator? Where was all the fuss about that ripoff, which was so blatant that the minds at Cupertino even decided to take the name "Widgets?" How about Launchbar and Watson? Ever heard of those?

No offense to all you die hard mac heads, but I wouldn't be flapping your lips about who's copying what.

Not true.
http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/dashboard_vs_konfabulator
Read it carefully.

[Kato C.]

Anyway, there's no use in beating a dead horse as nothing will change as long as Jobs is at the helm.


Some might be happily agree with you.

[GFLPraxis]

Granted Apple made a few mistakes in it's biz model, and as long as HP, D3ll, Gateway and others continue to make windows boxes instead of linux and/or the next OS, ms will be fine. If on the other hand they stop, what will be the avenue for ms? the odds of them stopping now is nearly nil but none the less, that maybe approaching 1% and in 5 yrs 3% and ...........

SJ has brought Apple back, put your finacial hat back on and tell me who could take over apple, boot SJ, and not watch the stock drop to breakup value? While he may be some's bane, he is also the oxygen at Apple.
The scientific community is seeing a switch to Mac, and maybe soon, there will also be more apps written in the biz community as well. I own a small storage business and built my apps on office for the emac there. there is no question who has the market, like beta vs vhs, apple has the better product but not the market share. Unlike beta I believe Apple will survive because of the vision SJ has and MS is losing it.

I'm expecting/hoping that at SOME POINT when Apple is gaining increased rep for having a great OS (possibly just before Longhorn comes out, to undercut it, since everyone will be prepared to buy a new PC anyway), Apple will license out OS X.

I'm not talking about for x86, but for PowerPC. We could see Sony and IBM and Toshiba (three companies, remember?), maybe HP (since they work with Apple on the iPod), and others selling their own PowerPC systems running Mac OS X.

Apple sells Mac OS X for $129. However, unlike the systems you buy from Apple, the ones you buy from the other companies are ONLY OS X- no iLife '05, no AppleWorks, etc. So Apple will get good software sales with Mac OS X upgrades selling like hot cakes, Mac sales still going because of the brand name + sweet design + better software bundles, and Mac software selling a lot more, increasing developer support.

Just my hope.

[PlaceofDis]

I'm expecting/hoping that at SOME POINT when Apple is gaining increased rep for having a great OS (possibly just before Longhorn comes out, to undercut it, since everyone will be prepared to buy a new PC anyway), Apple will license out OS X.

I'm not talking about for x86, but for PowerPC. We could see Sony and IBM and Toshiba (three companies, remember?), maybe HP (since they work with Apple on the iPod), and others selling their own PowerPC systems running Mac OS X.

Apple sells Mac OS X for $129. However, unlike the systems you buy from Apple, the ones you buy from the other companies are ONLY OS X- no iLife '05, no AppleWorks, etc. So Apple will get good software sales with Mac OS X upgrades selling like hot cakes, Mac sales still going because of the brand name + sweet design + better software bundles, and Mac software selling a lot more, increasing developer support.

Just my hope.

that could work, but Steve and Apple would have to get the other computer makers to use PowerPC in the first place, which is the real challenge, it certainly would work, but its getting the others to play nice that is the problem

[GFLPraxis]

that could work, but Steve and Apple would have to get the other computer makers to use PowerPC in the first place, which is the real challenge, it certainly would work, but its getting the others to play nice that is the problem

At this point its not that big a problem.

Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony, Toshiba, and IBM (duh) have all embraced PowerPC...

Remember, Sony, Toshiba, and IBM are the alliance that is making the Cell processor. The Cell processor is just a PowerPC processor with multiple vector processing units attached.

And Nintendo is using G5's supposedly (or at least, some IBM processor, we know that much for sure) and Microsoft is using PowerPC's in the XBox.

Getting Sony and Toshiba and IBM to sell PowerPC desktops wouldn't be a problem if Apple doesn't try to force things on them like Microsoft does. They'd be happy for the change.

[angelneo]

Getting Sony and Toshiba and IBM to sell PowerPC desktops wouldn't be a problem if Apple doesn't try to force things on them like Microsoft does. They'd be happy for the change.
It's pretty hard to say. We all know Apple loves to keep a tight rein on the entire process so that they can control what goes out to the market. It has its advantages and disadvantages as we all know. Releasing OSX even for other PowerPC desktop makers might still be far-fetched idea for now. But who knows, Apple has done quite a number of unexpected business moves in these few years so it might still be possible.

[sosumi]

This is the song I want to hear Gates & Ballmer sing when they finally release Longhorn:

http://bobdylan.com/songs/delivered.html

[840quadra]

I like how Microshaft thinks it can woo people with cool graphics and icons. Well they are nice, but they go WAY overboard!

Yes OS X has nice graphics and such, but the look is CLEAN, and not cluttered with menus and tool bars all over the place.

I guess I am a minimalist, in Linux systems I run Blackbox as my Window manager, and in OS X I set my Dock to auto hide, and have as few icons and graphics exposed as possible..

Microsoft calls it a Desktop, who the hell has that much T*chidt on their real desktop?

[mad jew]

I reckon you've gotta take everything Paul says with a pinch of salt because I've never really seen him review something twice and give the same feedback. He's pretty inconsistent, one minute he loves Microsoft, hates Apple, the next minute it's the other way around. From a psychological point of view it's a pretty classic case of loving something but not knowing how to handle it. In his case, I reckon he loves the Macs but he doesn't want to, if that makes sense.

[munkle]

Dvorak (http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=1863) isn't a fan either, the comments are pretty interesting.

...My next stop - I want to check out the Macs OSX GUI, haven’t played with a Mac since System 7.5

MS should be getting nervous right about now...

[Symtex]

You can rant as much as you want on Microsoft Longhorn, You can predict Microsoft downfall like some expert have been predicting for the past 10 years, it aint' going to happen. We have to be realist. The mindset of windows user is beyond comprehension. They rather invest in anti-spyware, anti-virus, process-guard and registery protector then puttin all that money towards a virus free and spyware free Mac OSX.

As long as Apple will be responsible for hardware and software, it will still be a niche market. A darn good one, you might add, but still rather ssmall. Another issue of the Apple market is the lack of optimisation of OpenGL / Games. Tiger 10.4 is definetly a step in the right direction but Apple is so far behind Direct X / Windows XP optimisation for games. The game industry has now overpass the Cinema industry and it will only get better from here. Apple need to step on the bandwaggon and work hard with the gaming industry to get good result.

Ipod halo effect and the windows security threat over the past year is helping Apple. They need to capitalize now. Apple also need to approach casual pc user market. Most user still thinks that Apple computer are only good for photoshop. I've been working for 14 years with PC and only last year I bought my first Mac Computer. I now realize what I have been missing all this years.

Apple fanboy need to open their eyes and realize that Microsoft OS will probably be around as the dominate OS for a very long time. It doesnt mean that Apple doesn't have a good and competitive product.

[srobert]

We keep comparing Longhorn to 10.4... shouldn't we compare it to what 10.5 will be? I wouldn't be surprised if we use 10.5 by the time Longhorn comes out. It looks like they still have a lot of work to do to to make longhorn a decent OS... but then again, it almost felt like I was running a beta when I was using 10.0 and 10.1. We'll see.

[stevietheb]

This is the song I want to hear Gates & Ballmer sing when they finally release Longhorn:

http://bobdylan.com/songs/delivered.htmlLove me some Basement Tapes!!!

How about:
"What Was It You Wanted?" (http://bobdylan.com/songs/whatwasit.html)

[PlaceofDis]

Dvorak (http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=1863) isn't a fan either, the comments are pretty interesting.



MS should be getting nervous right about now...

if MS' biggest fanboys are starting to like OS X then yes Longhorn may not be able to help MS at all, the begining of the end for MS?! a bit to early to tell who knows what will happen, but disturbing indeed

[raggedjimmi]

phht, makings of a train wreck? pah. as much as i hate Windows, every tom dick and harry with an X86 CPU is going to get Longhorn. wether or not it runs fast, or even tolerable of their machine.

another reason for Tiger (or possibly Longhorn will be out at 10.5?) users to be even more smug in the future!

[PlaceofDis]

phht, makings of a train wreck? pah. as much as i hate Windows, every tom dick and harry with an X86 CPU is going to get Longhorn. wether or not it runs fast, or even tolerable of their machine.

another reason for Tiger (or possibly Longhorn will be out at 10.5?) users to be even more smug in the future!

it was my understanding that MS doesnt really sell that many copies of Windows upgrades and that they really get people hooked in their new OSes through upgrades? i could be wrong but i thought that was how it worked for the majority of people? this should then allow apple to show an alternative to windows when people go to upgrade

[jayscheuerle]

Running Windows isn't a choice. It's a default.

People choose to run OSX.

Market share is a heartless statistic. What I'd like to see is the break-down of machines sold for home use–what people choose to run. Market share as recorded now includes cash registers, kiosks and the millions of machines that sit idle between 5pm and 9am.

Has anyone ever heard of this number being mentioned?

[jayscheuerle]

it was my understanding that MS doesnt really sell that many copies of Windows upgrades and that they really get people hooked in their new OSes through upgrades? i could be wrong but i thought that was how it worked for the majority of people? this should then allow apple to show an alternative to windows when people go to upgrade

HA! Windows users upgrade their OS by replacing their computer every 3 years... :D

[Fukui]

if MS' biggest fanboys are starting to like OS X then yes Longhorn may not be able to help MS at all, the begining of the end for MS?! a bit to early to tell who knows what will happen, but disturbing indeed
Has anyone read a recent article in I think it was Fortune where it talks about Google stalking MS. It read that many many executives were actually hired away from MS including the main architect of windows for the past decade. When google opened their new office 5 miles from MS in redmond, their office was filled with people from MS asking for job! A majority if MS employees use iPod, the majority use Google search, and another thing that was in the article... its pretty revealing. Both google and apple who are outspent by MS by a factor of 10 are able to beat them to the market.
Interesting read.

[stubeeef]

Has anyone read a recent article in I think it was Fortune where it talks about Google stalking MS. It read that many many executives were actually hired away from MS including the main architect of windows for the past decade. When google opened their new office 5 miles from MS in redmond, their office was filled with people from MS asking for job! A majority if MS employees use iPod, the majority use Google search, and another thing that was in the article... its pretty revealing. Both google and apple who are outspent by MS by a factor of 10 are able to beat them to the market.
Interesting read.

that explains this (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=581&e=1&u=/nm/20050427/tc_nm/tech_microsoft_visas_dc) WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States should remove visa limits to allow more skilled foreign citizens to work at U.S. companies if it wants to remain a leader in technology, Microsoft Corp. (Nasdaq:MSFT - news) Chairman Bill Gates said on Wednesday.

Microsoft is having a hard time finding skilled workers within the United States, and the lack of H-1B visas for skilled workers is only making the situation worse, Gates said in a panel discussion at the Library of Congress.

"The whole idea of the H-1B visa thing is, don't let too many smart people come into the country. The whole thing doesn't make sense," Gates said.

[leekohler]

Good God. The look of it is awful. Has anyone at MS ever taken an art or design class?

[Lacero]

They kept the Start bar. I would think with Longhorn and the Aero Glass interface, they could have come up with something a little more revolutionary. This Longhorn looks like a retread of a tired, decade old design.

[Apple Hobo]

Good God. The look of it is awful. Has anyone at MS ever taken an art or design class?

Of course they have art training! (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/188559335X.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg) For XP, MS worked closely with well-known Fisher-Price to develop their kiddy-style GUI.

[leekohler]

Of course they have art training! (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/188559335X.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg) For XP, MS worked closely with well-known Fisher-Price to develop their kiddy-style GUI.

That was great! Thanks for that!

[Lacero]

Microsoft developers are completely unfocused. Slipping schedules and a UI that has not changed in over a year spells doom for this release of Windows. A part of me is rejoicing, and another part is just sad.

[Lacero]

edit: repost

[calyxman]

Not true.
http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/dashboard_vs_konfabulator
Read it carefully.

Ok, so if you want to use the logic in that aricle, we can say that Apple stole it's GUI concept from, and owes all its Mac OS X success to, Xerox. What's the next excuse?

[mac-er]

The bottom line is if you ignore the business segment, you can kiss the market share race goodbye. And I don't think Apple is wrapping its hopes up in the consumer line. Porting iTunes and iPod for Windows practically weakens the argument of convincing someone to switch from Windows to Mac. How about the latest round of iPods released, remember when Apple dropped their own cable Firewire and left USB 2.0 in the package? Was Apple catering to its loyal Mac users when they did that?


You obviously have not read what ever single business/stock analyst is saying. Porting iTunes to Windows and the iPod have been one of the greatest moves ever by Apple in encouraging the consumer level markets to switch.

[Lacero]

I smell something rotten at MacRumors.

Is Calyxman talking from his ass?

[mac-er]

Oh my, another one calls me a troll for being on the other side of opinion. Let's see, I'm using an iBook and I happen to be running Panther with iTunes playing in the background, and I happen to be typing in Safari...what did you say I was again? May you can't stand someone disagreeing with you, huh? :rolleyes:


According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll), you are a troll.
An Internet troll is either a person who sends messages on the Internet hoping to entice other users into angry or fruitless responses, or a message sent with such content.
A variant of the [inflammatory messages] involves posting content obviously severely contradictory to the (stated or unstated) focus of the group or forum- for example, posting cat meat recipes on a pet lovers forum, posting evolutionary theory on a creationist forum (or vice versa), or posting messages about how all dragons are boring in the USENET group alt.fan.dragons.

Why are you on a Mac-fan forum if you love Windows so much (and hate Apple)?

[GFLPraxis]

Ok, so if you want to use the logic in that aricle, we can say that Apple stole it's GUI concept from, and owes all its Mac OS X success to, Xerox. What's the next excuse?

...
Are you just begging to be embarrassed?

I just pwned you over the Dashboard issue...here we go again.

http://www.mackido.com/Interface/ui_history.html

pwned.

1) Apple PAID Xerox.
2) Apple's ideas were considerably different than Xerox's, and considerably superior.

That does not constitute a ripoff.



You're just running around try to FIND something to accuse Apple of.

[stubeeef]

...

1) Apple PAID Xerox.


I make that very same, very important distinction in every argument, it is of the most fundamental of business practices, that when you BUY it, it is not ripping it off.

[ravenvii]

Why are you on a Mac-fan forum if you love Windows so much (and hate Apple)?

The reason is obvious. He is so desperately sexy and desperately wants my love. Oh, and to top that off, he desperately wants to show me his. Come here, hunk, I'm waiting!

[Lord Blackadder]

I arrived at the blogger lunch late as well, but it was a veritable who's-who of the Windows enthusiast community

...they've got an enthusiast community?

:confused:

That's like having an emergency appendectomy enthusiast community - horribly masochistic.

And, uh...go get 'em Raven. Looks like Calyxman needs some love! :D

[Maedus]

The reason is obvious. He is so desperately sexy and desperately wants my love. Oh, and to top that off, he desperately wants to show me his. Come here, hunk, I'm waiting!

I read MacRumors way too much since I was just thinking about that Tuesday on the drive to school.

The "I love you. I want to show you mine. Will you show me yours" statement, that is. Not to actually seeing yours. :o

[PlaceofDis]

...they've got an enthusiast community?

:confused:

That's like having an emergency appendectomy enthusiast community - horribly masochistic.

And, uh...go get 'em Raven. Looks like Calyxman needs some love! :D

haha yeah i was surprised to see that too
&
keep up the good work Raven!!

[angelneo]

if MS' biggest fanboys are starting to like OS X then yes Longhorn may not be able to help MS at all, the begining of the end for MS?! a bit to early to tell who knows what will happen, but disturbing indeed
Looking at the amount of fortune that MS has amassed, it would take a decade for them to die off even if they just sit on their ass now, but it would be a slow and painful death...

[840quadra]

Looking at the amount of fortune that MS has amassed, it would take a decade for them to die off even if they just sit on their ass now, but it would be a slow and painful death...

I doubt it would happen, but it would be painful to watch THAT giant fall. I don't like many microsoft programs, but I don't hate the company.

[iWillard]

They kept the Start bar. I would think with Longhorn and the Aero Glass interface, they could have come up with something a little more revolutionary. This Longhorn looks like a retread of a tired, decade old design.

I concur... Even my PC lovin' buddies have said "Wow... this is weak" when I show them the newest Longhorn screenshots.... Did they get rid of that bizzare huge "cow clock" (as I call it) in the latest builds?

[Mav451]

Haha, sorry there are no "Windows enthusiast" forums. There are hard-core hardware forums, where people talk about the brand (AMD vs. Intel, nForce vs. Intel, ATi vs. nVidia, Firefox vs. Opera) name like its their car.

Why do you think we're so obsessed with enlarging our e-penis and overclocking?

*and I'm not joking haha*

[broken_keyboard]

2) Apple's ideas were considerably different than Xerox's, and considerably superior.

Yes. And there's a clear difference between turning an idea in to a product (what Apple did) and simply copying someone else's product (what Microsoft did).

Xerox was the first idea. Mac was the first product. Windows was just a cheap knockoff of the Mac. So was Amiga, but Amiga had some innovation in other areas, such as the idea of a separate GPU.

[John Jacob]

Remember that Macs have no penetration in places like China and India and East Asia which are starting to see rapid takeup in desktop computers. (a fair number of them are probably running pirated Windows)

Hey I have a Mac, so you can't say we have NO penetration in India.

And yeah, not many people use legal Windows for home use over here (corporations do, though).

[stevietheb]

Did they get rid of that bizzare huge "cow clock" (as I call it) in the latest builds?That was my favorite thing about Longhorn! Of course, that's because I'm a University of Texas alum.

Very sad that the new windows happens to share the name of my former school's mascot.

Hook 'em!

[jayscheuerle]

Yes. And there's a clear difference between turning an idea in to a product (what Apple did) and simply copying someone else's product (what Microsoft did).

Xerox was the first idea. Mac was the first product. Windows was just a cheap knockoff of the Mac. So was Amiga, but Amiga had some innovation in other areas, such as the idea of a separate GPU.

Actually, the Xerox Star was a product in 1981, though woefully underpowered and overpriced.

Judge for yourself what Macs owe to it.

[anonymous161]

The reason is obvious. He is so desperately sexy and desperately wants my love. Oh, and to top that off, he desperately wants to show me his. Come here, hunk, I'm waiting!

You are my hero. Nice sig too!!

[Eric5h5]

Actually, the Xerox Star was a product in 1981, though woefully underpowered and overpriced.

And that mouse looks downright painful to use. Fortunately there have been a few refinements in that area since then....

--Eric

[Mechcozmo]

Didn't Apple try this 10-12 years ago? One of the Apple history books talks about the engineers holing up in a hotel together for a few weeks and trying to make it work - all in secrecy. I remember this because the guys would take breaks and go down to the nearby arcade to play some game. After a while, they bought the video game and put it in the room. But it fell through at the end.


The "Enterprise" project. It got System 7 running on x86 hardware+the Finder+Quicktime but was killed after that.

Meanwhile Apple is crawling through the rainforest with it's declining marketshare.

Read the 'tar people...

[JeffTL]

Well, this cements it.

My two and a half year old Dell running XP will be replaced with a Mac when it dies.

[broken_keyboard]

Actually, the Xerox Star was a product in 1981, though woefully underpowered and overpriced.

Judge for yourself what Macs owe to it.

Thanks, I didn't know about that one. So ahead of it's time...
http://www.digibarn.com/friends/curbow/star/retrospect/

As much as I admire it technically, I have to say though: $16,500!
Is something still a product if it is priced outside of reach? Or is it just an implementation of an idea? Products are things you sell.

[Mechcozmo]

Linkety (http://toastytech.com/guis/star.html) to a neat page on the Star.

Basically, Apple was let into Xerox's labs for a bunch of shares of stock, which was good, because the Apple II was doing really damn well at the time. And Xerox did sue over the Lisa in 1992, after they had been buried in a landfill. Can't even sue on time.