Norwegian Court Convicts First Woman for Rape

[Hemingray]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050428/od_nm/crime_norway_sex_dc/nc:757;_ylt=Av3kIdvnuRGi_frzSiKBVFESH9EA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

Anyone else think this guy is crazy? Hm, if you were 31 and awoke to a 24 year old woman doing that to you, would YOU press charges?!?! :eek: I think the guy should be locked up instead!!

[mkrishnan]

Anyone else think this guy is crazy? Hm, if you were 31 and awoke to a 24 year old woman doing that to you, would YOU press charges?!?! :eek: I think the guy should be locked up instead!!

You should at least consider the possibility that his perspective is different from yours, and that others' might be too. Pressing rape charges against someone, and following through with all of the things that come afterwards, to try to get that someone convicted, is no painless thing. People (women or men) who do it don't do it for fun, or on a lark, because it isn't fun. If this person went to all the trouble necessary to support the police in his country in following up with this, then I think its quite likely that this *was* a traumatic experience. I think the courts in his country did the right thing.

[Hemingray]

You should at least consider the possibility that his perspective is different from yours, and that others' might be too.

Um, yeah, obviously his perspective is MUCH different from mine! It's still unfathomable to me.

Don't get me wrong, rape is a serious offense, but... this?! C'mon, am I seriously the only one here that thinks this is crazy?

[emw]

Interesting that she got 9 months and a relatively small fine. I wonder what the response would have been if the situation was reversed?

As for the guy being crazy - he's just part of the wrong generation. Anyone in high school these days is having oral sex all the time (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=122181), and so probably wouldn't have been so concerned.

[mkrishnan]

As for the guy being crazy - he's just part of the wrong generation. Anyone in high school these days is having oral sex all the time (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=122181), and so probably wouldn't have been so concerned.

EMW, I <3 you for trying to resurrect that thread. :D

I don't know what the standard punishments for rape are over there, or if the type of sex act is considered in assessing severity. The sentence seems light by US standards, but then our whole crime/punishment system is so brain-bogglingly wrong-minded that... :( The article did make a big deal, though, of the prosecution trying for as egalitarian a handling of the case as possible. But it doesn't really quote them on whether they felt the sentence was a success or a failure in that light.

[Applespider]

I don't think it's crazy. Who knows what had happened beforehand? Perhaps he'd turned her down before, perhaps he had a girlfriend who he wanted to stay faithful to, perhaps he thought she might have been a sperm thief (as we had in a thread once before), perhaps he was self-conscious about his size and didn't want anyone else around the sofa to see? :eek:

Consent is the key in any sexual activity. It's not there if a participant is unconscious! While I'll admit to 'waking' sleeping partners, I generally know whether they're willing beforehand... and wait until they can join in... ;)

[revenuee]

i wish i could wake up to a blow job at a party ... lol

seriously though ... i'm glad he did it -- equal rights are equal rights <-- you take the good and the BAD, and that includes sexual acts against will.

[emw]

EMW, I <3 you for trying to resurrect that thread. :DYeah, it died, um, prematurely.

I don't know what the standard punishments for rape are over there, or if the type of sex act is considered in assessing severity. The sentence seems light by US standards, but then our whole crime/punishment system is so brain-bogglingly wrong-minded that... :( The article did make a big deal, though, of the prosecution trying for as egalitarian a handling of the case as possible. But it doesn't really quote them on whether they felt the sentence was a success or a failure in that light.Seriously, though, good point. It would be interesting to understand what the standards for rape punishment are there. I can't see a guy in the US getting 9 months for having oral sex with a woman who hadn't consented to it. A couple of years, maybe. But probably no fine.

[Jaffa Cake]

As for the guy being crazy - he's just part of the wrong generation.I'll be 30 next year (putting me in the same generation as this guy), so thank you for making me feel very, very old. ;)

The fact of the matter is had the situation been reversed and a drunk woman awoke to find a stranger having sex with her, her attacker should rightly expect to have the full weight of the law thrown at him. The woman in this instance fully deserves her punishment.

[emw]

I'll be 30 next year (putting me in the same generation as this guy), so thank you for making me feel very, very old. ;)Sorry about that. I'm older than you, though, so think how it makes me feel. :p

Besides, you'd have to read the other thread to understand the reference.

[aloofman]

It's funny how guys can want sex so much that the idea of receiving it from an unwanted partner somehow doesn't seem so bad.

[andiwm2003]

Um, yeah, obviously his perspective is MUCH different from mine! It's still unfathomable to me.

Don't get me wrong, rape is a serious offense, but... this?! C'mon, am I seriously the only one here that thinks this is crazy?


well, you don't know the situation. i had once my own stalker and it's no fun. it's annoying and could cost you your career, relationship or your friends. if something like this happens you're almost forced to sue her because if you don't things can get really ugly.

sueing in a case like this seems to be blown out of proportion :D but i guess it's not about this aeh.. incident. it's probably more about the whole situation and the risk involved (it happend at a party so lets assume somebody took a picture and posts it on the web. good bye job, career, girlfriend....). that's why we choose to have sex in private settings. and we are not so desperate for sex that we appreciate any kind of service like this.

[killuminati]

As for the guy being crazy - he's just part of the wrong generation. Anyone in high school these days is having oral sex all the time,, and so probably wouldn't have been so concerned.

Yea, this weekend if I happen to fall asleep at a party and get domes, I probably wont be pressing charges. I'd just be kinda pissed well actually it depends who...

[Sutekidane]

Personally, if I didn't want to get raped, I would probably want to avoid situations that may lead to it, like falling asleep drunk at parties (duh).

[jamdr]

This is ridiculous. It is not biologically possible for a woman to rape a man. Rape is a forceful, violent act. Just physically speaking, women cannot force men to have sex with them, and even if they could, it still wouldn't be rape because it wouldn't be an invasive act. Waking up to some woman giving you a bj isn't going to scar you for life; a woman who has been violently attacked and forced to have sex is deeply scarred. This is just pc bull**** gone too far and it's ridiculous that some country's laws support crap like this. The man obviously had some other motives for pressing charges.

[emw]

This is ridiculous. It is not biologically possible for a woman to rape a man. Rape is a forceful, violent act. Just physically speaking, women cannot force men to have sex with them, and even if they could, it still wouldn't be rape because it wouldn't be an invasive act. Waking up to some woman giving you a bj isn't going to scar you for life; a woman who has been violently attacked and forced to have sex is deeply scarred. This is just pc bull**** gone too far and it's ridiculous that some country's laws support crap like this. The man obviously had some other motives for pressing charges.What?!

You're saying it's impossible for a woman to force a man to have sex with her against his will? Is it because women are such weak and vulnerable creatures that they couldn't possibly overcome us much stronger and more physically imposing males? Or is it because a male would never consider having sex a bad thing?

Perhaps waking up to oral sex isn't scarring to you, and it is significantly different than having your life or well-being threatened in a sexual encounter, but it doesn't make it right. This guy may have had ulterior motives, or he may simply have felt that this woman had no right to do this to him. To say rape only applies to women is small-minded.

[revenuee]

This is ridiculous. It is not biologically possible for a woman to rape a man. Rape is a forceful, violent act. Just physically speaking, women cannot force men to have sex with them, and even if they could, it still wouldn't be rape because it wouldn't be an invasive act. Waking up to some woman giving you a bj isn't going to scar you for life; a woman who has been violently attacked and forced to have sex is deeply scarred. This is just pc bull**** gone too far and it's ridiculous that some country's laws support crap like this. The man obviously had some other motives for pressing charges.

why because he was erect? it's not completely voluntary to be erect, if it was; premature ejaculation OR penile disfunction (which is usually psychological not physical) wouldn't be an issue

so you don't think any situation can exist where a man is forced into into sex by a woman?

[Hemingray]

that's why we choose to have sex in private settings. and we are not so desperate for sex that we appreciate any kind of service like this.

Heh... not necessarily. :p

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/flash/moresexthanme.html

[Drgnhntr]

This is ridiculous. It is not biologically possible for a woman to rape a man. Rape is a forceful, violent act. Just physically speaking, women cannot force men to have sex with them, and even if they could, it still wouldn't be rape because it wouldn't be an invasive act. Waking up to some woman giving you a bj isn't going to scar you for life; a woman who has been violently attacked and forced to have sex is deeply scarred. This is just pc bull**** gone too far and it's ridiculous that some country's laws support crap like this. The man obviously had some other motives for pressing charges.

You are assuming that the guy is totally in control of his bodily functions. I don't know any guys that can control their erections completely, especially if someone is lending a helping hand.

The few cases of male rape, I actually know the person, involved alcohol. I agree that for a man it is not a violent invasive act compared to female rape but it is rape by the law (at least in California). My friend said no (multiple times), and she kept going. He felt stupid for being too drunk around a girl he shouldn't have been drunk with. It is embarrassing as a guy to say you were raped, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

[aloofman]

What if the guy were gay? Then the idea of any kind of sex with a woman would be completely repugnant to him and being forced to could be traumatizing, akin to a straight guy being forced by another man. A blowjob feels good, right? But does that mean that a heterosexual man would be fine with getting one from a guy? Probably not.

A person's reasons for not consenting to sex shouldn't be questioned, whether it's a male or female. If s/he doesn't want to, then it shouldn't be done.

[wdlove]

I give this guy a lot of credit for following through on this. Personal privacy is personal privacy, the lady took advantage of a man that was sleeping. Yes, rape is very serious. Doesn't matter if it happens to be a man or women

[Lacero]

The woman was doing the man a favor. She's helping to reduce his risks for prostate cancer.

[Mr. Anderson]

The woman was doing the man a favor. She's helping to reduce his risks for prostate cancer.

ha!

well, only if it had a happy ending, which it probably didn't. The story left out a few things, though, that might have made more sense to the story. You don't know if he was married or had a girlfriend or even if he was gay - regardless, it could have been a bit of a scare. Although, if he passed out on the couch, he might not have remembered consenting to something either.

D

[PlaceofDis]

i wouldnt be afraid to press charges, its an invasion of my privacy if i didnt ask for it. if its not consentual then its rape. period. and it is possible for a woman to rape a man, its just not the norm. i know that i woke up to some stranger giving me head i would freak out. who knows, maybe she was a stalker too, that would make this situation more understandable too. maybe it was known that she was 'easy' or had other problems......

wierd world we live in though

[MacAztec]

blah blah why press charges? invasion of privacy?

oh well, i bet it felt good.

[jamdr]

You're saying it's impossible for a woman to force a man to have sex with her against his will? Is it because women are such weak and vulnerable creatures that they couldn't possibly overcome us much stronger and more physically imposing males? Or is it because a male would never consider having sex a bad thing?
No, neither. It is certainly possible for a woman to be physically stronger than a man. And it is certainly possible for a man not to want to have sex. However, this still doesn't make it possible for a woman to "rape" a man. I don't want to get too graphic here, but just biologically speaking, women are not equipped to violently coerce a man to have sex. There is no force involved on the man's part in receiving a blowjob or even in sexual intercourse. A man cannot be hurt in either case. Uncomfortable, yes. Humiliated, yes. But it's NOT the same as when a woman is forcefully penetrated against her will. When a woman gets raped, she is the victim of a violent crime. It is quite offensive for you to equate such a horrible crime with a man receiving a blowjob while he is passed out. :mad:

[aloofman]

No, neither. It is certainly possible for a woman to be physically stronger than a man. And it is certainly possible for a man not to want to have sex. However, this still doesn't make it possible for a woman to "rape" a man. I don't want to get too graphic here, but just biologically speaking, women are not equipped to violently coerce a man to have sex. There is no force involved on the man's part in receiving a blowjob or even in sexual intercourse. A man cannot be hurt in either case. Uncomfortable, yes. Humiliated, yes. But it's NOT the same as when a woman is forcefully penetrated against her will. When a woman gets raped, she is the victim of a violent crime. It is quite offensive for you to equate such a horrible crime with a man receiving a blowjob while he is passed out. :mad:

No one is equating the act of a blowjob with penetrative sex. The critical factor here is consent. If it's not consensual, then it's sexual assault and/or rape. To reduce rape to a matter of physical injury is to trivialize its harm.

[thecow]

No, neither. It is certainly possible for a woman to be physically stronger than a man. And it is certainly possible for a man not to want to have sex. However, this still doesn't make it possible for a woman to "rape" a man. I don't want to get too graphic here, but just biologically speaking, women are not equipped to violently coerce a man to have sex. There is no force involved on the man's part in receiving a blowjob or even in sexual intercourse. A man cannot be hurt in either case. Uncomfortable, yes. Humiliated, yes. But it's NOT the same as when a woman is forcefully penetrated against her will. When a woman gets raped, she is the victim of a violent crime. It is quite offensive for you to equate such a horrible crime with a man receiving a blowjob while he is passed out. :mad:You just failed sarcasm 101.

[jamdr]

No one is equating the act of a blowjob with penetrative sex. The critical factor here is consent. If it's not consensual, then it's sexual assault and/or rape. To reduce rape to a matter of physical injury is to trivialize its harm.
Fine, but sexual assault is not the same as rape. Sexual assault can come in many forms and includes verbal abuse. I'll agree with calling this sexual assault if the man did, in fact, not consent. It is certainly not rape.

[jamdr]

You just failed sarcasm 101.
What? :confused:

[PlaceofDis]

There is no force involved on the man's part in receiving a blowjob or even in sexual intercourse. A man cannot be hurt in either case. Uncomfortable, yes. Humiliated, yes. But it's NOT the same as when a woman is forcefully penetrated against her will. When a woman gets raped, she is the victim of a violent crime. It is quite offensive for you to equate such a horrible crime with a man receiving a blowjob while he is passed out. :mad:

a man can't get hurt by sex or a bj? women have teeth and can spread stds too, a bj can be very violent if you really want to think about it in that way

but it really is a matter of consent, no consent then its definitely sexual assult, if the woman persists after the guy is telling her to stop thats up there with rape, it may not be as physically damaging, but it can have the same effects

[jasylonian]

No, neither. It is certainly possible for a woman to be physically stronger than a man. And it is certainly possible for a man not to want to have sex. However, this still doesn't make it possible for a woman to "rape" a man. I don't want to get too graphic here, but just biologically speaking, women are not equipped to violently coerce a man to have sex. There is no force involved on the man's part in receiving a blowjob or even in sexual intercourse. A man cannot be hurt in either case. Uncomfortable, yes. Humiliated, yes. But it's NOT the same as when a woman is forcefully penetrated against her will. When a woman gets raped, she is the victim of a violent crime. It is quite offensive for you to equate such a horrible crime with a man receiving a blowjob while he is passed out. :mad:

Hmm... so a woman can't date rape a man? A woman can't abuse a position of power in order to force a man to have sex with him? Reminds me of a scene from 40 Days and 40 Nights. Yes, I watched that movie. Oh, and Fatal Attraction (Correct me if I'm wrong on the movie).

[Jaffa Cake]

a man can't get hurt by sex or a bj? women have teeth...I'm now sitting here with my legs crossed. Thank you. ;)

[Chappers]

For those people who don't think its possible for a woman to rape a man then think of women shotputters - you wouldn't stand a chance.

In fact I have a friend who is a triple dan black belt in Karate - she's a pretty little thing - but trust me, I've seen her fight and you wouldn't stand a chance with her either.

Your fantasy maybe that you wake up to some porn star giving you a BJ.
When you wake up to the real world -

[Lacero]

Ouch. I mean that literally. ;)

[salmon]

It could have also been that this guy had a love in his life, and the actions of this woman jeopardized that relationship. STDs are a real concern as well.

I'm not sure what the legal definitions are, but I do agree with people making the distinction between sexual assault and rape.

Still, I'm sure the woman probably hd no shortage of date offers afterwards - I mean, a woman so anxious to give oral sex that she even does it to someone who doesn't want it? I know people that would line up for that! :)

[craigdawg]

I thought this line was funny:
Norway has long traditions of equality -- 40 percent of the cabinet of Prime Minister Kjell Magne Bondevik, for instance, are women. Um, equality would be more like 50%.

[emw]

I thought this line was funny:
Um, equality would be more like 50%.Better than the US, where women make up a paltry 15% of Congress.

[mkrishnan]

I thought this line was funny:
Um, equality would be more like 50%.

I think it's considered an example of progress. I think what they meant to say was that they have a long tradition of *pursuing* equality.

[aloofman]

Still, I'm sure the woman probably hd no shortage of date offers afterwards - I mean, a woman so anxious to give oral sex that she even does it to someone who doesn't want it? I know people that would line up for that! :)

I'm sure she now leads all Norwegians in party invitations.

[jayscheuerle]

blah blah why press charges? invasion of privacy?


No. Invasion of privates, see?

[mpw]

This is ridiculous. It is not biologically possible for a woman to rape a man. Rape is a forceful, violent act. Just physically speaking, women cannot force men to have sex with them, and even if they could, it still wouldn't be rape because it wouldn't be an invasive act. Waking up to some woman giving you a bj isn't going to scar you for life; a woman who has been violently attacked and forced to have sex is deeply scarred. This is just pc bull**** gone too far and it's ridiculous that some country's laws support crap like this. The man obviously had some other motives for pressing charges.

How wrong are you?

I think what you mean is that you understand rape as penetrative vaginal sex by a man forcing himself on a woman. While this is true many people see rape defined as far broader than that and I think most right thinking people would agree this is true.
Some women could force themselves on a man so you're wrong again there.
Waking up to a someone giving you a BJ could of course scar a person so again you're wrong there too.
Equality is not PC bull***.
I'm guessing you're a man who believes that no woman could force themselves on you. What about three or four women holding you down and sodomizing you with strap-ons? I bet you views would suddenly change on what's classed as rape.

[Blue Velvet]

What about three or four women holding you down and sodomizing you with strap-ons? I bet you views would suddenly change on what's classed as rape.

Another priceless MR moment.

[aloofman]

What about three or four women holding you down and sodomizing you with strap-ons? I bet you views would suddenly change on what's classed as rape.

Depends on whether he wants them to.

[emw]

What about three or four women holding you down and sodomizing you with strap-ons? I bet you views would suddenly change on what's classed as rape.Dammit. Now I have to rethink my "post of the day" recommendations...

[mkrishnan]

Dammit. Now I have to rethink my "post of the day" recommendations...

Didya have another one in mind? :D

[jayscheuerle]

What about three or four women holding you down and sodomizing you with strap-ons?

Yeah, I remember my first fraternity rush too.

[jasylonian]

hmm... i'm thinking somebody has been reading too much Catharine Mackinnon...

[craigdawg]

Better than the US, where women make up a paltry 15% of Congress.
True, but we don't have a long history of equality.

[Mechcozmo]

I certainly wouldn't have wanted this to happen to me.

[watcher2001]

Textbook definition of Rape

1. The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.
2. The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.
3. Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice.

Note #1 states Sex acts, not penetration. Last time I checked, "correct me if I am wrong Mr Clinton" a Blow Job counts as a sex act.

whether we agree with it or not... IT was rape

[emw]

True, but we don't have a long history of equality.So true. Hopefully things are getting better.

[MarkCollette]

What if the guy were gay? Then the idea of any kind of sex with a woman would be completely repugnant to him and being forced to could be traumatizing, akin to a straight guy being forced by another man. A blowjob feels good, right? But does that mean that a heterosexual man would be fine with getting one from a guy? Probably not.

A person's reasons for not consenting to sex shouldn't be questioned, whether it's a male or female. If s/he doesn't want to, then it shouldn't be done.

Right, plus who knows what STDs that kind of woman would have?

I mean, it sounds all cool and macho to wake up to getting head, but there's tonnes of scenarios that I'm sure would make ALL of us reconsider.

Eg:
- Nastily ugly or fat chick
- Psycho ex girlfriend stalking you
- Chick trying to get pregnant to get child support
- Bitter woman with AIDS trying to kill all guys
- Chick trying to break you and your girlfriend up (maybe she just hates your girlfriend, and doesn't even care for you)
- Totally nice chick that maybe you'd like, but oops, she has oral herpes


Hey, I don't mean to be a let down, and ruin everyone's beer commercial induced hallucinations, but when I go to a party, I'd like to sleep with less than half the chicks there, so I don't think I'd be happy waking up to one from the nasty majority...

[MarkCollette]

No one is equating the act of a blowjob with penetrative sex. The critical factor here is consent. If it's not consensual, then it's sexual assault and/or rape. To reduce rape to a matter of physical injury is to trivialize its harm.

Rape doesn't always result in injury. The vagina is capable of expanding large enough to pass a child through it... Requiring proof of tearing or something like that just doesn't fit with the biological reality.

Plus, lots of rape involves drugging, where the victim doesn't know what's happenning, and so doesn't defend themselves.

In any case, injury (torn tissue) may have nothing to do with it.

[Mechcozmo]

Um, equality would be more like 50%.

Some people are more equal that others.

[erikh]

I don't know what the standard punishments for rape are over there, or if the type of sex act is considered in assessing severity. The sentence seems light by US standards, but then our whole crime/punishment system is so brain-bogglingly wrong-minded that... :( The article did make a big deal, though, of the prosecution trying for as egalitarian a handling of the case as possible. But it doesn't really quote them on whether they felt the sentence was a success or a failure in that light.

I can tell you that oral sex is not very likely to be seen as a "severity" here in Norway, by most people. Had this woman for instance, as suggested in another post here, sodomized this man, the jail sentence is likely to have been longer.

As to the length of the sentence compared to the, unfortunately, more common "reversed situation", I have scanned national newspapers' coverage of previous rape trials, and the sentences ranging from 340 hours of forced community labor to 15 years of detainment, with most cases ending up at 1-2 years of jail-time, it seems. Anyway, IANAL, so do look for a pinch of salt to go with this...

[mkrishnan]

As to the length of the sentence compared to the, unfortunately, more common "reversed situation", I have scanned national newspapers' coverage of previous rape trials, and the sentences ranging from 340 hours of forced community labor to 15 years of detainment, with most cases ending up at 1-2 years of jail-time, it seems. Anyway, IANAL, so do look for a pinch of salt to go with this...

Thanks for the info! Is the Norweigian prison system considered effective at..."rehabilitating" prisoners? I think Americans are skeptical because our prison system is very focused on punishment, and so we don't have an expectation of actually making the prisoner better, and we just look for long jail times.... :( Not that I should really be starting *that* fight in this thread. :rolleyes:

And as for your IANAL comment (hehehe, always happy to learn new 'net acronyms! :)), don't worry, I don't have any immediate intention of raping anyone anywhere, regardless of the definition. :D So hopefully I won't be needing a lawyer anytime soon. ;)

[gekko513]

Thanks for the info! Is the Norweigian prison system considered effective at..."rehabilitating" prisoners? I think Americans are skeptical because our prison system is very focused on punishment, and so we don't have an expectation of actually making the prisoner better, and we just look for long jail times.... :( Not that I should really be starting *that* fight in this thread. :rolleyes:

And as for your IANAL comment (hehehe, always happy to learn new 'net acronyms! :)), don't worry, I don't have any immediate intention of raping anyone anywhere, regardless of the definition. :D So hopefully I won't be needing a lawyer anytime soon. ;)
I don't know how effective it is or if it's any more or less effective compared to other countries, but it is definitely supposed to be "rehabilitating" by design. The maximum sentence is 21 years even for a serial killer or treason (against the country).