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MacRumors
Sep 29, 2011, 02:21 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/09/29/foxconns-12-billion-plan-for-brazilian-ipad-production-in-trouble/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/09/ipad_2_brazil.jpg


Reuters reports (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/29/us-brazil-ipad-foxconn-idUSTRE78S4O420110929) that Foxconn's previously-announced $12 billion plan (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/04/12/foxconn-to-invest-12-billion-in-brazil-with-ipad-production-to-begin-by-november/) to begin producing iPads in Brazil appears to be faltering as Foxconn and the Brazilian government have been unable to reach an agreement.A much-hyped $12 billion plan for Taiwanese manufacturer Foxconn to produce iPads in Brazil is "in doubt" due to stagnant negotiations over tax breaks and Brazil's own deep structural problems such as a lack of skilled labor, government sources tell Reuters.

[...]

"The talks have been very difficult, and the project for a Brazilian iPad is in doubt," one official said. "(Foxconn) is making crazy demands" for tax breaks and other special treatment, the official added.Reports in the Brazilian media have indicated that the country's development bank is on the verge of withdrawing funding for the project, a move that would likely kill the plan as it currently stands.One option could be for Foxconn or a Brazilian partner to simply assemble foreign-made parts to the iPad, rather than producing screens and other components locally. Other steps could also be taken to reduce the project's scale, which may simply have been too ambitious for all parties.High import tariffs and taxes push the entry-level iPad price to approximately $900 in Brazil, nearly double the model's $499 price tag in the United States. By moving production into Brazil, Apple would be able to address the country's market of 190 million consumers at lower price points.

Article Link: Foxconn's $12 Billion Plan for Brazilian iPad Production in Trouble (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/09/29/foxconns-12-billion-plan-for-brazilian-ipad-production-in-trouble/)



wordoflife
Sep 29, 2011, 02:30 PM
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$900 for a baseline iPad? Wow that's freaking expensive

Yvan256
Sep 29, 2011, 02:52 PM
Dear Foxconn,

Canada is also very close to the USA.

Signed,
skilled workers.

dampfnudel
Sep 29, 2011, 03:18 PM
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I don't think these skilled Canadian workers would be willing to accept third world wages. Otherwise, why not open an iPad plant in the US?

akohan
Sep 29, 2011, 03:19 PM
Dear Foxconn,

Canada is also very close to the USA.

Signed,
skilled workers.

I think the point is to produce for the Brazilian internal market, not the US market. And I think wages in Canada are probably higher than in the states right now anyway - stronger Canadian Dollar (and economy) not helping much there.

fabian9
Sep 29, 2011, 03:20 PM
Dear Foxconn,

Canada is also very close to the USA.

Signed,
skilled workers.

But producing in Canada won't solve Apple's problem, which is high import taxes when importing products to Brazil. Producing in Canada would probably also triple the unit production cost because wages are way higher in Canada compared to Brazil...

eghedini
Sep 29, 2011, 03:20 PM
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$900 for a baseline iPad? Wow that's freaking expensive

You're damn right. I am Brazillian, and I'm sick with the tax policy applied here. This week a chinese car manufacurer dropped all plans to build a factory here because our "magnific" politics raised the tax over cars. 13,000 jobs trown away! I just can't get it in my mind!

Mac American
Sep 29, 2011, 03:21 PM
How about the United States, we have skilled unemployed workers, plus states are giving huge tax breaks for people willing to create jobs. Just automate the plant. Look BMW makes the x3 here for export globally. We can make products in the USA competitively, Dells were all assembled in Texas until 2006, and they were competitive.

Designed in California. Made in USA.:apple:

50548
Sep 29, 2011, 03:21 PM
Dear Foxconn,

Canada is also very close to the USA.

Signed,
skilled workers.

Foxconn seems to be asking for too much, and Brazil is definitely not a Chinese sweatshop - so it's just impossible for them to have the same cost advantages in Brazil, a Western nation with usually very high employment social nets as they do in cheapo Asia.

It will be a pity if they don't start making iPads there; but in any case interest following the new tax incentives for tablets is already considerable, with companies like LG, Samsung, Motorola, Positivo and others confirming their interest in manufacturing devices in Brazil.

Mac American
Sep 29, 2011, 03:29 PM
Foxconn seems to be asking for too much, and Brazil is definitely not a Chinese sweatshop - so it's just impossible for them to have the same cost advantages in Brazil, a Western nation with usually very high employment social nets as they do in cheapo Asia.

It will be a pity if they don't start making iPads there; but in any case interest following the new tax incentives for tablets is already considerable, with companies like LG, Samsung, Motorola, Positivo and others confirming their interest in manufacturing devices in Brazil.

Foxxcon is facing problems in China, that is why the are attempting to expand to other regions. Higher wages and the Chinese government is paying more attention to pollution, so its driving cost up, making them less competitive.

50548
Sep 29, 2011, 03:29 PM
You're damn right. I am Brazillian, and I'm sick with the tax policy applied here. This week a chinese car manufacurer dropped all plans to build a factory here because our "magnific" politics raised the tax over cars. 13,000 jobs trown away! I just can't get it in my mind!

Well, I hate the high taxes in Brazil as well...but I can understand the government's decision to prioritize local industry, especially in a market with such a HUGE domestic demand and strong evidence that China simply makes use of widespread dumping, including an undervalued currency.

Brazil is not a country without industries (for manufactured products to be irrelevant as in the Caribbean, Switzerland or Luxembourg)...so such a concern may be seen as legitimate.

Besides, over time and with competition, prices WILL go down - not to mention that EVEN without any taxes, prices are high in Brazil because many car companies, for example, are still able to mask exorbitant profits under the good ol' tax excuse (none of them will, of course, disclose profit margins in Brazil).

Those who REALLY want to produce in Brazil and FOR Brazil will do it - the market is too big for them to ignore it.

The 801
Sep 29, 2011, 03:44 PM
For those who want the ipad produced in US: Lets face it, the ipad is a hand built electronic product. It is not designed for automated assembly. Go look at the teardowns. Its one reason it is so well made, I am afraid to say. No American could handle the workplace necessary to assemble it. Unless you were willing to double the price.
Good, Fast, Cheap -- Pick two.

fussal
Sep 29, 2011, 04:32 PM
Well, I hate the high taxes in Brazil as well...but I can understand the government's decision to prioritize local industry, especially in a market with such a HUGE domestic demand and strong evidence that China simply makes use of widespread dumping, including an undervalued currency.

Brazil is not a country without industries (for manufactured products to be irrelevant as in the Caribbean, Switzerland or Luxembourg)...so such a concern may be seen as legitimate.

Besides, over time and with competition, prices WILL go down - not to mention that EVEN without any taxes, prices are high in Brazil because many car companies, for example, are still able to mask exorbitant profits under the good ol' tax excuse (none of them will, of course, disclose profit margins in Brazil).

Those who REALLY want to produce in Brazil and FOR Brazil will do it - the market is too big for them to ignore it.

Fosconn should see the potential and back down a bit. i guess as competitive as the industry is in china, they overlook the potential here. 190 mill people who'd buy more of those products if the import tax gets cut out. heck, they should produce the iphone here as well, imac's macbooks pro ;-) and... being in mercosul, that would open the whole south american market for them as well ;-) but i guess, greed is a sucker..... might be that lotsa people will just get those products when they travel up to the states.....

----------

Dear Foxconn,

Canada is also very close to the USA.

Signed,
skilled workers.

that, as mentioned below would not solve the problem of getting around the import tax in brasil and the whole south american market ;-) and if they'd aim for that they'd be making them cheaper in some american states ;-) the reason they were and hopefully will be looking for production in brasil... 60% import tax on foreign goods, if they can cut that, it would be a runner here ;-)
on a little different note... wages they pay for car production workers in canada.... outrageous, good for the workers ;-) but.....

jimbobb24
Sep 29, 2011, 05:00 PM
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The US manufacturing economy has been growing for years - recent global collapse excepted. It lts a myth from politicians that we do not make things. We do great, but our manufacturing employment has gone down with automation.

We have a huge manufacturing sector.

This was supposed to be in reply to some above concept.

Cant believe the import tax in brazil. I don't think I could live in a country that economically ignorant. Wait... I live is US. Sad for me.

50548
Sep 29, 2011, 05:20 PM
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The US manufacturing economy has been growing for years - recent global collapse excepted. It lts a myth from politicians that we do not make things. We do great, but our manufacturing employment has gone down with automation.

We have a huge manufacturing sector.

This was supposed to be in reply to some above concept.

Cant believe the import tax in brazil. I don't think I could live in a country that economically ignorant. Wait... I live is US. Sad for me.

One needs to understand why import taxes are high in Brazil, and this requires a little bit of context. Industrialization in Brazil only started in a big way after the Second World War, when Vargas's government, historically fascist-leaning, obtained a number of benefits from the US including the setting up of steel-making plants here.

Later on, during the 60s and 70s, Brazil used virtually the same mechanisms adopted by other emerging economies (such as South Korea) to foster local industries, especially via State-owned companies in the aerospace and military sectors. A bit later, from late 70s and 80s, another initiative specific to the tech sector aimed at creating local industries through the now infamous "market reserve" policy, which forbade personal computer imports and pushed for local manufacturers, even if most simply reverse engineered famous designs like the Apple // (and even the Mac, as the well-known political case of Unitron can tell).

The setting up of local industries, as well as the big four carmakers since the 50s/60s (Ford, GM, Volkswagen and Fiat), also paved the way to increased lobbying by labor unions and the like in the industrial sector...so in a nutshell, this is what happens nowadays with computers and tablets - the government gets used to the import tax revenues, the pressure for defending local industries continues, and competition is stifled by that strong cushion in favor of incumbent makers.

However, Brazil is now much bigger and more diverse economically: so the appeal for foreign companies is finally justifying the setting up of domestic operations, alongside a much better access to pricing information by consumers (i.e, Internet) and the need to revamp the country's infrastructure (as is the case for the US these days).

Besides, it is the only Western powerhouse of the BRIC countries - all the others are either too corrupt (Russia), too IP-infringing and government-centered (China) or too unstable/bureaucratic (India). Interesting times, indeed. :rolleyes:

biggreydog
Sep 29, 2011, 06:50 PM
I say make them in the US and smuggle them into Brazil at a profit. It's better than guns or drugs.

Rocketman
Sep 29, 2011, 08:15 PM
Since the entire point of producing in Brazil was to avoid import tariffs, and we now see the cost of production is HIGHER than an imported device with tariffs, and avoids a new $12B investment, how about letting Brazilians pay more and be done with it. They are used to it already due to government regulations.

As for making the devices elsewhere, how about Michigan, Wisconsin, and Ohio. I wonder if the USA would grant "competitive support" to Apple or Foxconn there in the form of tax subsidies, and loan rate reductions (the Chinese have this to a high art). There are certainly plenty of unemployed folks.

Wild idea, eh?

Rocketman

accessoriesguy
Sep 29, 2011, 10:45 PM
I say make them in the US and smuggle them into Brazil at a profit. It's better than guns or drugs.

lol, they smuggle guns and drugs, we smuggle Apple products!

MacGuffin
Sep 29, 2011, 11:29 PM
Brazil is enjoying unprecedented growth with an economy to make the pauperized United States extremely jealous. She is wise to be reluctant to become the latest Apple sweatshop.

The USA is another story. People are ready to kill for any work they can find...

captain kaos
Sep 30, 2011, 12:18 AM
How about the United States, we have skilled unemployed workers, plus states are giving huge tax breaks for people willing to create jobs. Just automate the plant. Look BMW makes the x3 here for export globally. We can make products in the USA competitively, Dells were all assembled in Texas until 2006, and they were competitive.

Designed in California. Made in USA.:apple:

Unfortunately i don't think the US workers would like the same treatment the china workers get. Im sure there is a reason they committed suicide, and i don't think its high wages and a lovely working life that did it. See Mike Daisey's show, The Agony and the Ecstasy of Steve Jobs

fredfnord
Sep 30, 2011, 01:03 AM
Unfortunately i don't think the US workers would like the same treatment the china workers get. Im sure there is a reason they committed suicide, and i don't think its high wages and a lovely working life that did it. See Mike Daisey's show, The Agony and the Ecstasy of Steve Jobs

Just to reiterate a point that has already been made a lot of times over the past couple of years: the workers at Foxconn committed suicide at a rate significantly lower than that of the general population in China. And those suicide rates are the official Chinese ones, which if anything would probably be understated with regard to suicide in the general populace, because they certainly do not want to look bad.

(Unfortunately, we do not have numbers for China broken down by age. So it may well be that Foxconn's suicides *were* out of the ordinary, for people of that age. However, since we don't know, it seems somewhat irresponsible to assume that that is the case.)

If a company in the US had, say, 50,000 employees, and those employees committed suicide at 2/3 the rate that other people in the US commit suicide, would we hold a Spanish inquisition?

This is not to say that Foxconn is a great place to work, or that there aren't real problems. All I'm saying is, using this as evidence that there are real problems is either slightly ignorant or extremely disingenuous.

planetawesum
Sep 30, 2011, 02:20 AM
The only real sustainable way to produce is locally for the local population set by the rules of that population for that population. No more blackmail, extortion, racket corporations hammering out slave relations to planet earth-ians (through violence to all).

If only people knew how much apple makes after profit (like most global businesses). They don't share. Remember these entities don't pay taxes, cause they own all governments. Only people like you and me pay taxes, on everything all the time, exponentially. We pay for everything while everything is taken away from us at the same time. Above all that, is corporate welfare. Yes we pay for them to stay in business while they rob us blind. hmmm dark ages?

So yes fair pay keeps the greed away. We will actually be able to afford what we make! imagine that!

You can only exploit people/ the earth for so long before you have to grow up, or be extinguished. Almost all so-called businesses today are based off slave labor (yes this includes wage slave labor here in the usa). Sorry!

Apple and all their minions need to get with the program. I love their products, long time user (almost 12 years now), not their labor practices. If they clean this up I'll once again be able to glorify them. It's too expensive not to. Nobody can afford it in the long run what is happening around the planet with "free trade" (exploitation) now. Earth can't take the raping(s) either. Glad this is coming up!!! :) The blood is seeping through the bandages.

mrklaw
Sep 30, 2011, 08:59 AM
what makes it expensive? Importing finished goods into Brazil have high tariffs applied?

If you don't have the workers to build from scratch, why not part-build, and then finish assembly in Brazil? Keep it simple for the skill level of the available workforce, and by supplying 'parts' you'll avoid import tariffs.

----------

its quite disappointing that these large growth BRIC economies seem to be able to justify almost anything and get away with it due to the desire to trade with them. eg protectionist practices like damaging import tariffs.

prestevez
Sep 30, 2011, 09:01 AM
Dear Foxconn:

Mexico is closer to the US, has more international free trade agreements than any other country in the world and has much cheaper wages than Brazil (or Canada).

Regards,

(cheap) skilled labor

carlgo
Sep 30, 2011, 09:40 AM
For those who want the ipad produced in US: Lets face it, the ipad is a hand built electronic product. It is not designed for automated assembly. Go look at the teardowns. Its one reason it is so well made, I am afraid to say. No American could handle the workplace necessary to assemble it. Unless you were willing to double the price.
Good, Fast, Cheap -- Pick two.

So, you are saying workers in the US can only make products that are assembled automatically? And once again, the "double the price" argument comes out. One of Foxcon's talking points obviously.

These people come out every time there is a made in the USA discussion. They must get alerts from headquarters.

BTW, your English gives you away. Back to English Camp and the shaming.

carlgo
Sep 30, 2011, 10:05 AM
Just to reiterate a point that has already been made a lot of times over the past couple of years: the workers at Foxconn committed suicide at a rate significantly lower than that of the general population in China. And those suicide rates are the official Chinese ones, which if anything would probably be understated with regard to suicide in the general populace, because they certainly do not want to look bad.

(Unfortunately, we do not have numbers for China broken down by age. So it may well be that Foxconn's suicides *were* out of the ordinary, for people of that age. However, since we don't know, it seems somewhat irresponsible to assume that that is the case.)

If a company in the US had, say, 50,000 employees, and those employees committed suicide at 2/3 the rate that other people in the US commit suicide, would we hold a Spanish inquisition?

This is not to say that Foxconn is a great place to work, or that there aren't real problems. All I'm saying is, using this as evidence that there are real problems is either slightly ignorant or extremely disingenuous.

People are jumping out of the windows at Ford factories? How about the night shift workers at ghetto mini-marts? Not them either?

There is a big difference between unhappy people who kill themselves in random locations, and those who specifically kill themselves at work by jumping out of the building they work in! They are trying to make a point obviously.

It is ignorant or (that big word) to think otherwise.

DotCom2
Sep 30, 2011, 12:41 PM
Why didn't they look into these issues before even deciding to build a plant there?:eek:
This just amazes me!

cube
Sep 30, 2011, 01:12 PM
Dear Foxconn:

Mexico is closer to the US, has more international free trade agreements than any other country in the world and has much cheaper wages than Brazil (or Canada).

Regards,

(cheap) skilled labor

The point is to make it in MERCOSUR, or even Brazil itself, to sell it there.

If importing to Brazil were OK, they could just make the stuff in China.

bmturney
Sep 30, 2011, 01:45 PM
These mass produced products like this will NEVER be produced in the US... US workers, especially unionized factory workers, demand WAY too much to mass produce consumer devices at a cost that would still allow the devices to be priced competitively... with wages, cost of benefits, cost of construction, and taxes the $499 iPad would cost three times that...

We get pissed that jobs are shipped overseas... yet we get pissed because we don't make enough either... or get pissed because prices are too high... pick your poison...

Mad-B-One
Sep 30, 2011, 01:48 PM
I say make them in the US and smuggle them into Brazil at a profit. It's better than guns or drugs.

If you go into logistics, you don't want to have a transport empty - ever! so, for the round trip: Drugs north, iPad south! Just fill the Cessna and make double the money.

You know how to find out if someone adopted the model? If you go to an apple store and right in front of it, someone offers Coke in pound-sized bags! :p

adildacoolset
Sep 30, 2011, 02:15 PM
Haha, I can beat that price. In Zambia, it costs 7,000,000 kwacha. About $1,800

50548
Sep 30, 2011, 06:17 PM
what makes it expensive? Importing finished goods into Brazil have high tariffs applied?

If you don't have the workers to build from scratch, why not part-build, and then finish assembly in Brazil? Keep it simple for the skill level of the available workforce, and by supplying 'parts' you'll avoid import tariffs.

----------

its quite disappointing that these large growth BRIC economies seem to be able to justify almost anything and get away with it due to the desire to trade with them. eg protectionist practices like damaging import tariffs.

I think people need to understand one thing clearly: apart from the fact that they are all "fast/faster growth economies", there is absolutely NOTHING in common between on one hand Brazil, a huge Western/Christian nation with a much smaller population and, on the other hand, eastern States like China or India (Russia is kind of in the middle) - Brazil has ZERO issues with widespread, officially-sanctioned IPR infringement like in China, and practically no outsourcing/sweatshop features like in those two populous countries.

As for protectionism, it must be clear that, when it comes to WTO disputes, it was the US who lost at least THREE times against Brazil in high-profile cases due to illegal trading measures on industrialized orange juice, steel bars and ethanol.

High import tariffs are NOT illegal and can be used to foster local industries, as was and still is common for other advanced economies since the 1960s (try to import meat into Switzerland and you'll see what a high tariff is)...

50548
Sep 30, 2011, 06:34 PM
If you go into logistics, you don't want to have a transport empty - ever! so, for the round trip: Drugs north, iPad south! Just fill the Cessna and make double the money.

You know how to find out if someone adopted the model? If you go to an apple store and right in front of it, someone offers Coke in pound-sized bags! :p

Grow up and at least try to learn that Brazil does NOT produce drugs (like Colombia or Bolivia) and is NOT Mexico (which, by the way, is only suffering from that horrendous drug-dealing violence because of nonstop arms smuggling FROM the US into Mexico). We don't have "coke" to ship up north; (unfortunately) our domestic market for drugs is big enough to sniff whatever comes from Latino (hispanic) countries, thank you.

If at least you were able to control your own borders and stop those idiots from selling AK-47s like candy to any little kid out there, your Spanish-speaking neighbors wouldn't be suffering so much now.

ytk
Oct 1, 2011, 04:52 PM
Wow, I knew iPads were popular, but a Brazilian? How will they ever sell that many?

TyrellDirt
Oct 1, 2011, 07:01 PM
Foxconn just purchased MILLIONS of these new assembly robots.
These "FRIDA" robots are designed to replicate the dexterity of human hands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1qJyAWZeV4


Just imagine all of the suicides that will happen when hundreds of thousands
of Foxconn workers loose their jobs. Or when the few remaining workers have
to try and keep pace with robots. Then you will see a torrent of suicides.
.....As well as more (slightly ill gotten) profits for Apple.

But it's OK.
Just like the blasphemous Porsche SUV paid for the development of a new generation
of Porsche race cars. Apples' squeezing of the Foxconn workers leads to new generations
of Apple workstations.........
......hey, wait a minute...:mad:

kdarling
Oct 1, 2011, 07:46 PM
For those who want the ipad produced in US: Lets face it, the ipad is a hand built electronic product. It is not designed for automated assembly. Go look at the teardowns. Its one reason it is so well made, I am afraid to say. No American could handle the workplace necessary to assemble it. Unless you were willing to double the price.
Good, Fast, Cheap -- Pick two.

I'd like an experienced business professional to explain why it would be prohibitive to build the devices in the USA.

Wage-wise, it certainly wouldn't double the price or anything close to it.

Consider that currently it costs about $3 of Chinese labor per phone. Each worker makes about US $300 a month. Paying someone $3,000 a month (well above minimum wage) should supposedly then raise the labor cost per phone to $30, or $27 more than in China. That's only about 5% more per phone.

Now yes, I realize there's a lot more to this. So let's double that and say it would cost an insane $60 per phone to assemble it in the US or Canada.

Apple makes the highest profit margin per mass market phone in the world, something like 50% compared to the 33-40% that other makers get. So say the phone sells for $600, they make $300 instead of $240 like other makers. That's about $60 extra profit that could be used to pay Americans instead.

My point is, when people say "oh it would cost double", I don't think it would be anywhere near that. Thoughtful replies welcome. Have at me :)

Tiggs
Oct 2, 2011, 01:18 PM
My point is, when people say "oh it would cost double", I don't think it would be anywhere near that. Thoughtful replies welcome. Have at me :)

Lots of studies out there as well as explanations from CEO's as to why companies have to go overseas. Studies show wages are a minor cost issue and only factor in to 10% of the increased costs yet people mistakenly focus on it. Most of the increased costs revolves around severe government rules and regulations that must be constantly adhered too.

3leggeddog
Oct 2, 2011, 04:44 PM
Personally, I would pay more for an iPad made in the US. We need to stop exporting our jobs in the name of saving a few dollars. We have over 9% unemployment (in some states it's over 12%), and there is nothing that an American worker can't do that a foreign can do. I agree that a US worker won't work under the conditions that other workers will, but, in truth, we shouldn't buy a product made under those conditions anyway - no human should have to work in an unsafe environment for non-livable wages.

With that said, American workers need to be reasonable about what a fair wage is, and we need to keep the unions out of the factory. There was a time for unions, but that time has long since past. Now the unions themselves are big business and are more concerned about maintaining their own power than actually helping the workers.

Many Japanese cars are made in the US in right-to-work states, and they're able to make cars at a decent price that compete with cars made any where else in the world. It's time we start to bring manufacturing back to this country, and Apple, as the "wealthiest" corporation, should take a leadership role. It used to be "Made In America" meant that it was the best product you could buy - let's reclaim that pride!

(just my two cents)

50548
Oct 2, 2011, 04:47 PM
Lots of studies out there as well as explanations from CEO's as to why companies have to go overseas. Studies show wages are a minor cost issue and only factor in to 10% of the increased costs yet people mistakenly focus on it. Most of the increased costs revolves around severe government rules and regulations that must be constantly adhered too.

Actually it's been recently reported by the Financial Times that the whole discussion about insourcing production is bogus, for the sheer fact that at least 70% of the wages/jobs related to the production of high-technology devices "Made in China" already go to the country where headquarters are located, i.e. the US - this means packaging, retailing, R&D, advertising jobs etc...

The problem is that "factories" are more visible - therefore, you tend to see these strident populist voices claiming for "jobs at home", even though they should know that most high-tech jobs ARE already at home.

vitzr
Oct 3, 2011, 09:42 AM
You're damn right. I am Brazillian, and I'm sick with the tax policy applied here.
If it's any consolation, I reside in California and we have a very hostile environment towards businesses. It's simply stupid !

carlgo
Oct 3, 2011, 10:36 AM
If it's any consolation, I reside in California and we have a very hostile environment towards businesses. It's simply stupid !

Nothing wrong with good laws that protect what needs to be protected, whether the environment or people. If there are silly laws, then I have full faith that Apple could lobby very effectively to eliminate them.

Too bad if business and industry has to meet basic standards of decency and good citizenship. Suck it up.