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View Full Version : Mac OS X 10.2.2 is on the developer site


bousozoku
Oct 4, 2002, 07:48 PM
Build 6F6 for Mac OS X and Mac OS X Server have been added yesterday and today, respectively.

al256
Oct 4, 2002, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by bousozoku
Build 6F6 for Mac OS X and Mac OS X Server have been added yesterday and today, respectively.

Well, do you anything more about this update?

mac15
Oct 5, 2002, 06:22 AM
[edited out]

Megaquad
Oct 5, 2002, 07:23 AM
Well I installed it now, and I dont see any changes..

bousozoku
Oct 5, 2002, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by Falleron
What sort of time scale for a public releases do we think? A week, 2 weeks?

It seems to me that it generally takes 5-6 weeks for an update like this, if everything is right. This is probably just the first of many builds for this number.

macdop
Oct 5, 2002, 01:18 PM
I hope those new nVidia and ATI drivers fix the mixed brand display card issue, right now I have to hack around it in order to get my computer to work, fortunately, Jaguar is so stable, I don't have to restart it much (restarting with the hack is a MAJOR pain in the butt)

ryme4reson
Oct 5, 2002, 01:31 PM
I am going to be able to upgrade after installing this beta? IF not, will I be able to re install my sys software without losing my date, or is this better left to people with an extra partition/sys software installed?

nickmcghie
Oct 5, 2002, 01:36 PM
great.. but no improvements or even bug fixes to iChat? come on apple.. ichat as it is now has some great potential but also has some major flaws/bugs... at least you can fix some of the more serious ones like the connection problems

Falleron
Oct 5, 2002, 01:37 PM
I wish they would include the ability to use M$ messenger within iChat. That wold be really good.

nickmcghie
Oct 5, 2002, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Falleron
I wish they would include the ability to use M$ messenger within iChat. That wold be really good.

...and ICQ too hehe

but before they start adding any new features, i hope they fix the myriad of bugs!

nero007
Oct 5, 2002, 02:34 PM
I haven't heard anything about this, but I'm sure Apple has a deal with AOL which allows them to use oscar, but in return they can only use AOL.

mozez
Oct 5, 2002, 06:23 PM
the build fixed disk copy for me, but and some minor things, as for ichat, i have no issues with it, but i'm curious what happens for other people.

nickmcghie
Oct 5, 2002, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by mozez
...as for ichat, i have no issues with it, but i'm curious what happens for other people.

Here's the problem that I've had with iChat:

Sometimes I go online and I'm chatting with someone.. part way through our conversation, I send the person a message and they don't respond for a while... they don't go into idle mode or anything, so I keep on messaging them, and still no response... so I message them on MSN or ICQ and ask them why they are ignoring me on AIM.. they say that I went offline on AIM.. but according to iChat from my point of view, I'm still online. So then i have to quit iChat and re-launch it to reconnect to the AIM network.

Another problem is that sometimes after having iChat open for a long time, I notice that there are X number of people online, and an hour later, there are still X people online and they happen to be exact same people. This is very odd because I have lots of contacts on my AIM list and people are constantly going on and offline. Also, sometimes I *know* a person is offline, but iChat tells me they are still online.

These problems are very serious because it makes iChat very unreliable and defeats the purpose of having an IM client. Whats the point of using an IM client if I can't even be sure that a messae I send is going to be received? Or I can't even know if I'm online or not?? I believe there is some bug with iChat and its connection to the AIM servers. So for now, I have gone back to Proteus and Adium for now.

I think iChat has some great potential but these quite serious connection problems must be resolved first.

mirageMR
Oct 5, 2002, 08:04 PM
mmm good, I see disc recording in there ;) 10.2.1 made my SuperDrive unrecognized to disk copy and iTunes :( Hopefully this will fix that issue. lol.

bousozoku
Oct 5, 2002, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by nickmcghie


...and ICQ too hehe

but before they start adding any new features, i hope they fix the myriad of bugs!

Myriad? I thought that it was a plethora. :D

sparkleytone
Oct 5, 2002, 09:32 PM
yeah the ichat team needs to do some serious bugsweeping. i am also disappointed to see, so far, there are no reported ichat updates. its seriously buggy, but i use it because of its potential.

it needs to crash less, because it crashes all the time for me.

also, sometimes ill be typing to someone and the window will go blank white and i have to close it and wait to see what people say, otherwise i lose their messages.

it really really doesnt like how fast i type to people and goes spinniewheel ballistic and crashes when im having a lively conversation.

.Mac accounts are spotty sometimes when it comes to being able to login. alot of times i get a service unavailable message, but change to a regular AIM account and it works fine.

and how about having a profile dammit?

finchna
Oct 5, 2002, 11:16 PM
While all the app updating is great, I'd also like to see some speed improvement--responsiveness of the finder, running multiple apps and switching among them instantly when click on window or dock, printing w/o getting a beachball (even if they are more attractive beachballs--I mean on a LAN printing to an HP8100 there should be no hesitation), etc. Granted, I don't have a dual gig, but I do use a dual 500 and it's happening on that. And 10.2.1 on an ibook 600 really makes serious work painful--again, running multiple apps (6-8+), taking 10 seconds to process a print job (and quit counting pages) or 20 seconds to open a 1.5MB PPT deck. Really want speed--optimize the code or do whatever makes that happen! (besides buying a dual 1G+)

Nathan

nero007
Oct 5, 2002, 11:24 PM
I have a dual 450 and I don't seem to have any of the finder issues you're speaking of.

ryme4reson
Oct 5, 2002, 11:25 PM
I love OSX, but I would rather have overall speed improvements than iChat, or CPU Monitor, or many of the other "goodies" with 10.2 I am a die hard mac user, and I love my 933 with a GIG+ of ram, but I cannot feel nothing but humble when I go to the lab at school, and a I see:
1: 200+ Dell's w/ 15inch flat panels 1.6GHTZ
2. The responsiveness of these systems. Everything is processed NOW. There is rarely any lag.

I dont want to get into the MHZ myth BS, but I know I have the fastest single processor mac built and 1.28GIGS of Ram, but my system pales in comparasion to a run of the mill 1.6GiG Dell.

OSX may be a jaguar, but I think its more like a baby jag rather then a fast, slick cat in the jungle full of other "big cats." The potential is there, but I think Apple needs some focus, rather than all these other tangents they are exploring.

crassusad44
Oct 6, 2002, 06:30 PM
I hope they fix the nasty Finder bug, that sometimes (rare, but it happens) occurs, and makes it impossible to move or copy files (no error message or anything, you simply cannot move any files or folders). Only a reboot solves the problem. Really annoying....

MacSlut
Oct 6, 2002, 09:43 PM
Upgrading to Jag has not been without many problems. I hope Apple goes through and looks at everything they broke and try to fix it or work with vendors to have them fix everything that's broken. It simply is no longer a rock solid OS for me. I'm having problems with USB devices, FireWire devices and most importantly, I'm constantly getting permission errors that requires me to run the disk utility to fix sometimes when I restart.

Furthermore, the phrase "OSX compatible" means nothing now. It has to say Jaguar compatible...which few things say or are labled as such.

Bummed because I use Proteus instead of iChat, Entourage instead of iCal or Mail.app, iView Media Pro instead of iPhoto, and have no use for .mac since I have a domain/host account. So I wish Apple would've spent or will spend more resources making sure everything works and works well...fast and reliable.

I'm whining like hell, but just asking for perfection. I could always downgrade, but I really like a lot of other things Jag offers, and it's the best OS available today.

bousozoku
Oct 6, 2002, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by finchna
While all the app updating is great, I'd also like to see some speed improvement--responsiveness of the finder, running multiple apps and switching among them instantly when click on window or dock, printing w/o getting a beachball (even if they are more attractive beachballs--I mean on a LAN printing to an HP8100 there should be no hesitation), etc. Granted, I don't have a dual gig, but I do use a dual 500 and it's happening on that. And 10.2.1 on an ibook 600 really makes serious work painful--again, running multiple apps (6-8+), taking 10 seconds to process a print job (and quit counting pages) or 20 seconds to open a 1.5MB PPT deck. Really want speed--optimize the code or do whatever makes that happen! (besides buying a dual 1G+)

Nathan

I'm with you. It doesn't matter whether it's the G3/400 or the dual 800 I run, but there are many places where speed could be improved. Of course, I feel a lot of the problem is with the application vendors and their Carbon-ized code. If they're using tricks from the old days, they're probably having a negative effect on performance. They'll figure it out and so will Apple, but Mac OS 9 didn't arrive in 1984, so it may take a little time for Apple to get to that level, but hopefully not 16-17 years.

FattyMembrane
Oct 6, 2002, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by MacSlut
I wish Apple would've spent or will spend more resources making sure everything works and works well...fast and reliable.

i understand your concern, but it's the job of the software maker to conform to the os, not the other way around, you cannot expect apple to modify their code so that it works with every poorly written program for the mac.

i think speed needs a definite boost on g3 machines and those without QE graphics cards as i found no improvement in speed on my machine and the finder could use a lot of bug fixes (does anyone know if ftp access in the finder is usable now?).

bosozoku hit the nail on the head with his comment on carbon apps, too many developers are using tricks and hacks just to get the program to work in osx instead of actually writing it for osx. this is what's giving carbon such a bad name. carbon apps can be just as fast/stable and almost as powerful as cocoa apps, but it requires a little more work than some developers have put into their ports.

julzmon
Oct 6, 2002, 10:49 PM
I hope they fix reading a Fat 32 disc through USB. I can't believe there isn't a big stink about this. It's a pretty important thing. Especially if I have to boot in to OS 9 for it to work.
What would happen after no booting in to 9? :)

MacBandit
Oct 7, 2002, 02:08 AM
Originally posted by crassusad44
I hope they fix the nasty Finder bug, that sometimes (rare, but it happens) occurs, and makes it impossible to move or copy files (no error message or anything, you simply cannot move any files or folders). Only a reboot solves the problem. Really annoying....


You don't have to reboot you can logout and back in.

Moonlight
Oct 7, 2002, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by macdop
I hope those new nVidia and ATI drivers fix the mixed brand display card issue, right now I have to hack around it in order to get my computer to work, fortunately, Jaguar is so stable, I don't have to restart it much (restarting with the hack is a MAJOR pain in the butt)

What mixed brand display card issue ? Because my video cards are acting really strange.

pgwalsh
Oct 7, 2002, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Falleron
I wish they would include the ability to use M$ messenger within iChat. That wold be really good. and Yahoo IM would be great too. I'd like to have just one messanger client.

MacSlut
Oct 7, 2002, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by FattyMembrane


i understand your concern, but it's the job of the software maker to conform to the os, not the other way around, you cannot expect apple to modify their code so that it works with every poorly written program for the mac.


I know it should be the job of the software (and hardware) makers to conform to the OS, but I've experienced far more hardware incompatibilities upgrading to Jaguar than I did upgrading to OSX. It seems like about 50-75% of the software I use came out with upgrades to be Jag compatible.

The problem is that OSX compatible means nothing, it must say Jag compatible, which few things actually say. I think a lot of software and hardware makers were caught off guard with how extensively things were going to change.

I have TWO FireWire CD burners that were OSX compatible but don't work in Jag. A USB card reader, a FireWire hard drive, and most importantly the software for my XLR8 G4 upgrade won't load (and the company is out of business). In addition, there is something else *just not working* which keeps my Mac from starting up reliably. I've heard of others who now have printers or scanners not working.

Anytime a new OS comes out, there should be a reasonable level of existing compatibility. In my experience they failed. This could've be done either by making their OS compatible or working with 3rd parties to have them conform to the OS. At the very least, they could've published a compatibility chart. This would've given more of an impression that this was a serious hard core upgrade.

Finally, there should be some things that are locked down in the OS so that we can count on them not changing. It's bad enough to think that peripherals will be superceded with faster/better products in such a short time, but to think that in even a shorter time period they simply won't work with the OS leaves a bad taste in your mouth. As a result, one looks at alternative OSs and whether or not there is greater consistency.

In terms of speed improvements, I'm content with the speed of Jag on my G3 (upgraded to a 500MHz G4 with 768MB of RAM). Sure, I'd like something faster, but the computer performs faster overall in Jag than it does in OS9.

MacBandit
Oct 7, 2002, 04:27 PM
I personally also saw a lot of programs that wouldn't open after installing 10.2 but found most of them worked simply after reinstalling them.

MacSlut
Oct 7, 2002, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by MacBandit
I personally also saw a lot of programs that wouldn't open after installing 10.2 but found most of them worked simply after reinstalling them.

Those don't count. I'm only talking about apps and hardware that have incompatibilities with Jaguar. My experience has been about 50-75% of OSX compatible stuff have some problem with Jag. Many times, but not always, the problems are insignificant and you wouldn't even notice or wouldn't attribute the problem to Jag. Take a look on VersionTracker for the number of apps you have that have had some minor revision to work with Jag, YMMV

And yes for anyone wondering, I've done re-installs, clean installs, erased the HD, etc... The incompatibilities I'm talking about that make up the 50-75% of my apps and peripherals are those verified by vendor.

MacBandit
Oct 7, 2002, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by MacSlut


Those don't count. I'm only talking about apps and hardware that have incompatibilities with Jaguar. My experience has been about 50-75% of OSX compatible stuff have some problem with Jag. Many times, but not always, the problems are insignificant and you wouldn't even notice or wouldn't attribute the problem to Jag. Take a look on VersionTracker for the number of apps you have that have had some minor revision to work with Jag, YMMV

And yes for anyone wondering, I've done re-installs, clean installs, erased the HD, etc... The incompatibilities I'm talking about that make up the 50-75% of my apps and peripherals are those verified by vendor.

Okay, I was just checking to see what you knew about this. I know that there were a lot of changes. 10.2 had some pretty significant changes in it and we will probably see some more before I consider OSX to be a complete OS.

mirageMR
Oct 7, 2002, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by MacSlut


Those don't count. I'm only talking about apps and hardware that have incompatibilities with Jaguar. My experience has been about 50-75% of OSX compatible stuff have some problem with Jag. Many times, but not always, the problems are insignificant and you wouldn't even notice or wouldn't attribute the problem to Jag. Take a look on VersionTracker for the number of apps you have that have had some minor revision to work with Jag, YMMV

And yes for anyone wondering, I've done re-installs, clean installs, erased the HD, etc... The incompatibilities I'm talking about that make up the 50-75% of my apps and peripherals are those verified by vendor.


I haven't had any problems with 10.2, all my apps work just fine, and I don't see any reason why developers (including myself) shouldn't have to keep our software up to date with the system. As for hardware...again, all of mine works flawlessly, if your vendor is to lazy to keep their drivers up to date, or release the specs to the public so SOMEONE can update the drivers, then don't buy stuff from them. How do the hardware vendors expect to get revenue when they don't have a driver to support their product. Basically *all* of your 3rd party software and hardware is just that, 3rd party hardware and software. These developers should involve themselves with the ADC, so that they get seeded builds and can have those new drivers / versions availiable and ready when the next OS revision comes out. Its not in any way apples responcibility that some vendor isn't keeping up. Go cry somewhere else.

MacSlut
Oct 7, 2002, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by mirageMR



I haven't had any problems with 10.2, all my apps work just fine


You don't have many apps or peripherals.

Take a look at VersionTracker for how many apps and drivers have updates that say, "Now compatible with Jaguar"

and I don't see any reason why developers (including myself) shouldn't have to keep our software up to date with the system. As for hardware...again, all of mine works flawlessly, if your vendor is to lazy to keep their drivers up to date, or release the specs to the public so SOMEONE can update the drivers, then don't buy stuff from them. How do the hardware vendors expect to get revenue when they don't have a driver to support their product. Basically *all* of your 3rd party software and hardware is just that, 3rd party hardware and software. These developers should involve themselves with the ADC, so that they get seeded builds and can have those new drivers / versions availiable and ready when the next OS revision comes out. Its not in any way apples responcibility that some vendor isn't keeping up. Go cry somewhere else.

Someone once told me that if everyone says you're acting like an *******, it has to tell you something about how you treat people. That's what's going on with Apple. There was a major OS upgrade with OSX. Many developers re-wrote software/drivers, and some things never made it (like my ATI TV Tuner).

That's ok. It's understandable that some developers won't upgrade their products. This is to be expected with any OS. However, the key point that I'm trying to make here isn't a crying about "things don't work, I hate Jag", but rather there's a reality that some equipment and software was lost/broken with the upgrade to OSX, some was lost/broken with 10.1-10.1.5, but quite a bit was lost/broken with Jag. At some point it factors into the equation of OSX being worth it.

I'm not talking about nameless companies. I'm talking ATI, Fantom, QPS, LaCie, Kodak, Afga, Kodak, and Epson.

It doesn't matter that these are 3rd party products, or who *should* be resonsible...especially since Apple doesn't offer some of these products...though they do sell and/or endorse some of these.

What does matter is I saw QPS on Apple's Website and bought the drive, it stopped working at 10.1.5. I bought a Fantom as seen on Apple's site and it stopped working with 10.2. If I buy a drive now, will it work with 10.2.2? How will I know?

There have been a lot of incremental upgrades since the introduction of OSX where you just sit back and see what now works and what now is broken.

Now here's the key point... If there's a perception that 3rd party products have compatibility problems and/or tend to stop working with OSX, that becomes a problem for Apple as it affects people's decisions in adopting OSX.

Apple needs to get beyond, "It's not our responsibility", and look after the interests of its customers. (BTW I would give them high marks for this, as compared to others, but I'm pointing out right now, there's room for improvement).

To put this all back in context, as asked what I'd like to see in 10.2.2 and 10.2.3, I could care less about iStuff, I just want to make sure things work well.

MacBandit
Oct 8, 2002, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by MacSlut


You don't have many apps or peripherals.

Take a look at VersionTracker for how many apps and drivers have updates that say, "Now compatible with Jaguar"



Someone once told me that if everyone says you're acting like an *******, it has to tell you something about how you treat people. That's what's going on with Apple. There was a major OS upgrade with OSX. Many developers re-wrote software/drivers, and some things never made it (like my ATI TV Tuner).

That's ok. It's understandable that some developers won't upgrade their products. This is to be expected with any OS. However, the key point that I'm trying to make here isn't a crying about "things don't work, I hate Jag", but rather there's a reality that some equipment and software was lost/broken with the upgrade to OSX, some was lost/broken with 10.1-10.1.5, but quite a bit was lost/broken with Jag. At some point it factors into the equation of OSX being worth it.

I'm not talking about nameless companies. I'm talking ATI, Fantom, QPS, LaCie, Kodak, Afga, Kodak, and Epson.

It doesn't matter that these are 3rd party products, or who *should* be resonsible...especially since Apple doesn't offer some of these products...though they do sell and/or endorse some of these.

What does matter is I saw QPS on Apple's Website and bought the drive, it stopped working at 10.1.5. I bought a Fantom as seen on Apple's site and it stopped working with 10.2. If I buy a drive now, will it work with 10.2.2? How will I know?

There have been a lot of incremental upgrades since the introduction of OSX where you just sit back and see what now works and what now is broken.

Now here's the key point... If there's a perception that 3rd party products have compatibility problems and/or tend to stop working with OSX, that becomes a problem for Apple as it affects people's decisions in adopting OSX.

Apple needs to get beyond, "It's not our responsibility", and look after the interests of its customers. (BTW I would give them high marks for this, as compared to others, but I'm pointing out right now, there's room for improvement).

To put this all back in context, as asked what I'd like to see in 10.2.2 and 10.2.3, I could care less about iStuff, I just want to make sure things work well.

I do agree that they need to focus more on there current customers and less on achieving more customers. This is because what good is it to gain 5,000 new customers in a month if you lose 3000-6000 durring that same time. I'm not saying that that is happening I'm just giving an example of a very potential scenario.

On the other hand I don't know why they have broken programs with the upgrades and I don't know how they have communicated with developers and how much time developers had. It could very well be that the change in the system was for the better and that the developers are just sitting around with there thumbs up there arse.

In any case Apple needs to come out of the closet and communicate better with there current customers. Also if what I have read has been correct they also need to communicate better with the software and hardware developers. There secrecy on all products does more to harm them then good. I have seen this for years with BMW motorcycles. BMW is constantly answering questions that were never asked with the development of new bikes and not fixing current problems simply because they want to be so secret about everything that they fail to get the consumers view on the product.