Our Lady of the Underpass, part 2

[leekohler]

It's official, we are now a theocracy. Can we start a fund to help pay this guy's fine? :)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/underpass_virgin_mary

[jayscheuerle]

He should have spray painted a big penis there and the diptych would have been complete...

[leekohler]

He should have spray painted a big penis there and the diptych would have been complete...

Ha-ha! Yes! That would have been great. Seriously though-I'm glad someone finally did it. :)

[killuminati]

im happy thats done with

[stubeeef]

Ha-ha! Yes! That would have been great. Seriously though-I'm glad someone finally did it. :)

That will be the same feeling microsuk lovers have when someone finally hits OSX with a virus, and to distrupt the "cult" of apple.

[leekohler]

That will be the same feeling microsuk lovers have when someone finally hits OSX with a virus, and to distrupt the "cult" of apple.

The difference is-we aren't fools. :)

[PlaceofDis]

The difference is-we aren't fools. :)

exactly, and they will be pissed when it gets patched to quickly too :D


OT: meh, its a stain, im surprised it hadn't washed away by now, but then again its been rather dry around here too

[stubeeef]

Hey wait a minute, what's that I see..............could it be..........is it...........it's the Virgin Mary on your house! Really I see it, look, on the front of your house, and over there on you other guys building...........wow, hope nobody comes to burn it down. :eek:

[leekohler]

Hey wait a minute, what's that I see..............could it be..........is it...........it's the Virgin Mary on your house! Really I see it, look, on the front of your house, and over there on you other guys building...........wow, hope nobody comes to burn it down. :eek:

You are ON today, man! :)

[stubeeef]

I was not into the whole stain thing, but what real harm was it that some people saw something that made them feel good.

It is always easy to destroy, much more so than to create, the painter man was just another version of a troll.

[leekohler]

I was not into the whole stain thing, but what real harm was it that some people saw something that made them feel good.

It is always easy to destroy, much more so than to create, the painter man was just another version of a troll.

Uh, gee- I though it was really frightening that a bunch of grown adults would go and pray to a salt stain on an underpass and that the mainstream media would actually cover it. Doesn't say much for our collective IQs. Also says bad things about where this country is heading.

[MongoTheGeek]

Man... I was going to sneak in there over the weekend with a hammer and chisel, chip it out of the wall. I got a great bid from Golden Palace...

[stubeeef]

Uh, gee- I though it was really frightening that a bunch of grown adults would go and pray to a salt stain on an underpass and that the mainstream media would actually cover it. Doesn't say much for our collective IQs. Also says bad things about where this country is heading.

That is what no one here gets, they weren't praying TO a salt stain, they were praying TO God, and to the Virgin Mary. The stain made them think about someone important to them.
Like I pointed out in the previous post, becareful which destroyers you cheeron, for the next sighting might be on your house.

[leekohler]

That is what no one here gets, they weren't praying TO a salt stain, they were praying TO God, and to the Virgin Mary. The stain made them think about someone important to them.
Like I pointed out in the previous post, becareful which destroyers you cheeron, for the next sighting might be on your house.

Oh no- I get it. It just really scares me. BTW-can't you pray to God anytime, anywhere? Why do you need to stand in front of a salt stain and disrupt traffic to do it?

And- if people started standing outside my house praying to a stain on my paint, it would immediately be painted over, believe me.

[emw]

I was not into the whole stain thing, but what real harm was it that some people saw something that made them feel good.

It is always easy to destroy, much more so than to create, the painter man was just another version of a troll.I agree that the guy who did the defacing was in the wrong - whether it was this or a billboard promoting Longhorn. In fact, although I might think these people are a little crazy for seeing this, I have no issue with them finding some solace in a random salt stain.

The issue I saw was that the state (in the form of police, barricades, traffic control, etc.) took it upon themselves to disrupt the lives of others (those wanting to use the underpass for that it was created) in favor of the relative few who wanted to pray to this vision.

This is, after all, public property, not private grounds.

[leekohler]

I agree that the guy who did the defacing was in the wrong - whether it was this or a billboard promoting Longhorn. In fact, although I might think these people are a little crazy for seeing this, I have no issue with them finding some solace in a random salt stain.

The issue I saw was that the state (in the form of police, barricades, traffic control, etc.) took it upon themselves to disrupt the lives of others (those wanting to use the underpass for that it was created) in favor of the relative few who wanted to pray to this vision.

This is, after all, public property, not private grounds.

Amen! No pun intended. :)

[MongoTheGeek]

The issue I saw was that the state (in the form of police, barricades, traffic control, etc.) took it upon themselves to disrupt the lives of others (those wanting to use the underpass for that it was created) in favor of the relative few who wanted to pray to this vision.

This is, after all, public property, not private grounds.

I was under the impression was that the state was doing crowd control and trying to make a semblance of organization. Just sorta to keep the peace in a non specific way. I am sure they do the same thing for other spontaneous memorials that pop up.

[Chip NoVaMac]

I was not into the whole stain thing, but what real harm was it that some people saw something that made them feel good.

It is always easy to destroy, much more so than to create, the painter man was just another version of a troll.

So true. When we need it, we tend to find Faith is the strangest of ways.

It may have been a salt stain, but it provided comfort to those that may have needed the comfort. And who is to say how visions are to appear? It distresses me that so many are unwilling to allow acceptance for what others see as potential proof of their Faith.

[stubeeef]

Oh no- I get it. It just really scares me. BTW-can't you pray to God anytime, anywhere? Why do you need to stand in front of a salt stain and disrupt traffic to do it?

You don't need an image, and not being Catholic, which I believe most of these people were, I don't get alot of the symbology of their practices. I often pray as I stand, did so twice today as a good friends husband died in his sleep last night.

And I don't promote the going around and making alters at underpasses, I think the beauty of nature is a much more awesome display of God than this image was.
emw,While I am not sure if the state was promoting the display with their actions or just trying to keep people safe, I don't condone the whole thing, but am more ticked at the guy who painted over it, or at the rejoicing of it. The state doesn't need to get into the business of setting up alters for everyone everywhere, but imagine the mess if it had not done some work to make things safer, traffic might have been much worse.

[Chip NoVaMac]

The issue I saw was that the state (in the form of police, barricades, traffic control, etc.) took it upon themselves to disrupt the lives of others (those wanting to use the underpass for that it was created) in favor of the relative few who wanted to pray to this vision.

This is, after all, public property, not private grounds.

And there lies the problem. How do we balance the needs of all with the needs of the few. Do we only allow our own beliefs to be accepted, and reject those that we don't understand or accept?

[leekohler]

So true. When we need it, we tend to find Faith is the strangest of ways.

It may have been a salt stain, but it provided comfort to those that may have needed the comfort. And who is to say how visions are to appear? It distresses me that so many are unwilling to allow acceptance for what others see as potential proof of their Faith.

You know- I usually agree with you, but a salt stain as potential PROOF of one's faith? PROOF? Come on- that's a stretch.

And again- I really don't care what makes people happy, but I don't think you should be disrupting traffic flow and using state resources to do it. If the guy who painted over it is getting fined, every one of those people should be fined for disrupting traffic flow.

[jsw]

He should have spray painted a big penis there and the diptych would have been complete...
I wasn't sure what you meant there until I saw a better view of the image.
http://www.formymac.com/MR/r505517448.jpg
Looks like an ad for The Vagina Monologues.

I would suspect that, assuming a God in the Judeo-Christian form, He'd be able to not only fashion a more lifelike rendition but might, stunningly enough, make one that actually looked like a woman of the time and place (Jerusalem, Roman times), as opposed to a Renaissance-oriented white woman.

The only signs I want to see preserved on public throughways are ones telling me road names and directions. I think the defacement was wrong - as all defacements are - but I couldn't care less that a salt stain was removed.

I don't mind that people find solace in such things - except that it disturbs me that intelligent beings can see this as a sign of anything except evaporation.

[stubeeef]

You know- I usually agree with you, but a salt stain as potential PROOF of one's faith? PROOF? Come on- that's a stretch.

And again- I really don't care what makes people happy, but I don't think you should be disrupting traffic flow and using state resources to do it. If the guy who painted over it is getting fined, every one of those people should be fined for disrupting traffic flow.

As mongo pointed out, what about other spontaneous memorials, for Elvis, Sid Vicious, John Lennon, or anyother to that matter? This whole thing would have dissapeared faster without the media attention, but that is the way these things work.

[emw]

And there lies the problem. How do we balance the needs of all with the needs of the few. Do we only allow our own beliefs to be accepted, and reject those that we don't understand or accept?I am in no way rejecting their beliefs, nor am I condoning the actions of the person who painted over the stain.

But what if I see the Virgin Mary in an asphalt patch on I-90? Should I expect the police to barricade off a lane for me so that I can stare at it? What about providing escorts to people who want to cross traffic to get over there?

What if I saw Satan in that patch? Or some other religious icon? Or of a non-mainstream religion? Would the state have done the same thing, or would they have kicked me out and told me to go home?

I remember when there was a big panic when people thought they saw Satan in smoke from the WTC burnings on 9/11. Billions of random patterns occur throughout the world every day - and we're always trying to attach a face to them.

[jsw]

Looking some more, now I'm sad it's gone. Clearly it was a picture, not of the Virgin Mary, but of Obi-Wan Kenobi. Look at it. See - it's a Jedi. See the beard? Use the picture below for reference.
http://www.formymac.com/MR/ObiWan.jpg

[emw]

Looking some more, now I'm sad it's gone. Clearly it was a picture, not of the Virgin Mary, but of Obi-Wan Kenobi. Look at it. See - it's a Jedi. See the beard? Use the picture below for reference.Hey, any way to get those geeks out of the movie line so I can get a ticket, I'm game for. Nice one.

[stubeeef]

I think I see obi on your car! I hate obi, I shouldn't have to look at an obi, obi makes me insane! I must de-obi you and your vehicle! Black paint should do, btw I am homeless and pennyless.

[MongoTheGeek]

http://us.news3.yimg.com/img.news.yahoo.com/util/anysize/380,http%3A%2F%2Fus.news1.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Frids%2F20050418%2Fi%2Fr505517448.jpg?v=1
Looks like an ad for The Vagina Monologues.


Thank you for that distressing bit of visual imagery. I don't think I will ever be able to look at a catholic church the same way. On those lines I wonder how Dan Brown missed that amazing bit of symbolism in the Da Vinci Code.

[leekohler]

I am in no way rejecting their beliefs, nor am I condoning the actions of the person who painted over the stain.

But what if I see the Virgin Mary in an asphalt patch on I-90? Should I expect the police to barricade off a lane for me so that I can stare at it? What about providing escorts to people who want to cross traffic to get over there?

What if I saw Satan in that patch? Or some other religious icon? Or of a non-mainstream religion? Would the state have done the same thing, or would they have kicked me out and told me to go home?


Exactly! That is my point. This has been going on for a month- enough is enough.

And Stubeeef- I think memorials to rock stars are just as silly.

Would I have painted over Our lady of the Underpass? Probably not.

[stubeeef]

And Stubeef- I think memorials to rock stars are just as silly.

OK for you rappers, the ones still dead anyway! :p

Please don't miss understand my feelings here. I understand the silly-ness of this but silly things go on everywhere everyday all day. Some are harmless or nearly so.
If you are for traffic relief then maybe the LA solution is for you? Traffic is way down on the freeways as of late you know.
I can make allowances for people who are harmless, who want "good" it is the "know it alls" that want to negate everything that drive me wild.

[emw]

I think I see obi on your car! I hate obi, I shouldn't have to look at an obi, obi makes me insane! I must de-obi you and your vehicle! Black paint should do, btw I am homeless and pennyless.Easy, tiger (can I say that, or will TigerDirect sue me?). Anyway, none of us - or at least only a few - have supported the defacing of the, um, stain. I think the guy should be fined just the same as if he had scrawled something anywhere else.

[jsw]

Thank you for that distressing bit of visual imagery. I don't think I will ever be able to look at a catholic church the same way. On those lines I wonder how Dan Brown missed that amazing bit of symbolism in the Da Vinci Code.
Sorry! I wasn't referring to all Virgin Mary images... just this one, which clearly could be interpreted as more than just an image of the Virgin Mary. I can't look at it without, at a minimum, seeing a beard - that is, when I look at it as something other than a salt deposit.

[stubeeef]

Easy, tiger (can I say that, or will TigerDirect sue me?). Anyway, none of us - or at least only a few - have supported the defacing of the, um, stain. I think the guy should be fined just the same as if he had scrawled something anywhere else.

I know, just being silly, sorry it did not come through, better stop here for awhile.

[leekohler]

OK for you rappers, the ones still dead anyway! :p

Please don't miss understand my feelings here. I understand the silly-ness of this but silly things go on everywhere everyday all day. Some are harmless or nearly so.
If you are for traffic relief then maybe the LA solution is for you? Traffic is way down on the freeways as of late you know.
I can make allowances for people who are harmless, who want "good" it is the "know it alls" that what to negate everything that drive me wild.

I hear you- people can do what they want. That's fine.

But the next time I feel like taking me and my friends for a picnic in the middle of the street because, well really, all property belongs to the people right? I hope that the police would protect us and you would support it.

Silly right? I think so. The point is I don't care what people believe, so long as it's within reason and doesn't try to directly affect others' lives.

[MongoTheGeek]

Sorry! I wasn't referring to all Virgin Mary images... just this one, which clearly could be interpreted as more than just an image of the Virgin Mary. I can't look at it without, at a minimum, seeing a beard - that is, when I look at it as something other than a salt deposit.

Yeah but with concealed arms and flowing robes tapering to the bottom and the color contrasted center with the hooded head above...

Good thing most Mary's are dressed in blue. Then again that must be what Kirk woke up to in the morning...

[Hemingray]

Finally, someone had the balls to put this ludicrousness to rest!

I'd personally throw in a couple bucks to help with this guy's fine. I'm sure a lot of others out there would too.

[stubeeef]

I hear you- people can do what they want. That's fine.

But the next time I feel like taking me and my friends for a picnic in the middle of the street because, well really, all property belongs to the people right? I hope that the police would protect us and you would support it.

Silly right? I think so. The point is I don't care what people believe, so long as it's within reason and doesn't try to directly affect others' lives.

If you believe in mid-freeway picnics and are willing to risk it for the few hours till the police (read-mental health authorities) come to your rescue, then go for it. The majority of these people were off the road, atleast at first, it was the "on-looker" drivers that started some of this. It is why police put up screens at accidents now, and medians are getting taller (blinders).
I didn't say "people can do what they want." I was saying I could make allowances for people that are harmless but wanting "good".

[FoxyKaye]

That is what no one here gets, they weren't praying TO a salt stain, they were praying TO God, and to the Virgin Mary. The stain made them think about someone important to them.
Like I pointed out in the previous post, becareful which destroyers you cheeron, for the next sighting might be on your house.
Let them pray to whomever they want, just don't do it in the middle of a freeway. And please, before we talk about burning down people's houses, lets remember that the only legitimate charge against the guy who spraypained over the stain is defacing public property. Maybe Chicago should ask everyone who held up traffic over the past few weeks to pay for the additional costs to the Police and Traffic departments for staffing and partitioning off the stain so no-one got killed standing in traffic?


The issue I saw was that the state (in the form of police, barricades, traffic control, etc.) took it upon themselves to disrupt the lives of others (those wanting to use the underpass for that it was created) in favor of the relative few who wanted to pray to this vision.
Uh huh, I don't care if those wackos were Catholics, Baptists, or any other flavor of the cult of Christianity. The point here is that because it was a Christian thing that somehow the whole world had to stand still and witness. I highly doubt there would have been nearly the same hooplah if this were related to any other religion. Its the holier-than-thou theocratic Christian America that thinks it is entitled to this country's laws and social programs that allows this kind of crap to happen. This is a tiny, tiny example of a much larger iceberg - hasn't anyone else noticed how suddenly emboldened the entire Christian cult has become in this country?

[leekohler]

If you believe in mid-freeway picnics and are willing to risk it for the few hours till the police (read-mental health authorities) come to your rescue, then go for it. The majority of these people were off the road, atleast at first, it was the "on-looker" drivers that started some of this. It is why police put up screens at accidents now, and medians are getting taller (blinders).
I didn't say "people can do what they want." I was saying I could make allowances for people that are harmless but wanting "good".

Ok- but do you really think it's acceptable for this to go on for a month? Do you seriously think the police would make that allowance for any other "harmless", "good" group? I don't think they would.

[leekohler]

Let them pray to whomever they want, just don't do it in the middle of a freeway. And please, before we talk about burning down people's houses, lets remember that the only legitimate charge against the guy who spraypained over the stain is defacing public property. Maybe Chicago should ask everyone who held up traffic over the past few weeks to pay for the additional costs to the Police and Traffic departments for staffing and partitioning off the stain so no-one got killed standing in traffic?



Uh huh, I don't care if those wackos were Catholics, Baptists, or any other flavor of the cult of Christianity. The point here is that because it was a Christian thing that somehow the whole world had to stand still and witness. I highly doubt there would have been nearly the same hooplah if this were related to any other religion. Its the holier-than-thou theocratic Christian America that thinks it is entitled to this country's laws and social programs that allows this kind of crap to happen. This is a tiny, tiny example of a much larger iceberg - hasn't anyone else noticed how suddenly emboldened the entire Christian cult has become in this country?

I really need to work on my communication skills. You made my point so much better than I did. :) What if this was a Muslim symbol on the freeway? I can guarantee you no gathering would last long if that were the case.

[emw]

I really need to work on my communication skills. You made my point so much better than I did. :) What if this was a Muslim symbol on the freeway? I can guarantee you no gathering would last long if that were the case.Do you really think you'd see Muslims out there doing stuff like this? Perhaps I'm ignorant, but I don't read much about other religions (beyond Christians) that do this sort of thing.

[MongoTheGeek]

I really need to work on my communication skills. You made my point so much better than I did. :) What if this was a Muslim symbol on the freeway? I can guarantee you no gathering would last long if that were the case.

Personally I want to see people set up a shrine around something that looks like Lenin. We'll have red candles and soviet flags and little cups of Vodka.

[jayscheuerle]

Do you really think you'd see Muslims out there doing stuff like this? Perhaps I'm ignorant, but I don't read much about other religions (beyond Christians) that do this sort of thing.

I don't think any physical representations of Allah or Mohammed are allowed in Islam, so this particular kind of sighting would not be possible.

[FoxyKaye]

Personally I want to see people set up a shrine around something that looks like Lenin. We'll have red candles and soviet flags and little cups of Vodka.
Stoli, of course! :D

[rainman::|:|]

yeah, no other religion would have gotten away with it, although most other religions wouldn't even try...

i've been having fantasies about taking a firefighter's hose to the stain... would have been fun.

If this guy was defacing the wall, then so were all the people that left candles/ribbons/paintings of mary/etc. hell! maybe this guy was just adding his own to the "tribute site".

[emw]

yeah, no other religion would have gotten away with it, although most other religions wouldn't even try...

i've been having fantasies about taking a firefighter's hose to the stain... would have been fun.

If this guy was defacing the wall, then so were all the people that left candles/ribbons/paintings of mary/etc. hell! maybe this guy was just adding his own to the "tribute site".Quite true - I hadn't though about that, but there were a number of other "scribblings" on the wall. Bring 'em all in!

[MongoTheGeek]

I don't think any physical representations of Allah or Mohammed are allowed in Islam, so this particular kind of sighting would not be possible.

I agree with you there. From what I have heard physical representation of people/Allah are forbidden in Islam. Like some conservative christian groups who shun all symbols (even to not displaying crosses) because it smacks of idolatry. Things like this even helped cause the reformation.

You might get a similar Muslim response if the text of the Koran and the name of Allah appeared spontaneously.

[leekohler]

Do you really think you'd see Muslims out there doing stuff like this? Perhaps I'm ignorant, but I don't read much about other religions (beyond Christians) that do this sort of thing.

I don't think so-but shouldn't they be able to if these people are? And if they did, would they be able to? I seriously doubt it.

[stubeeef]

Ok- but do you really think it's acceptable for this to go on for a month? Do you seriously think the police would make that allowance for any other "harmless", "good" group? I don't think they would.

I don't know why it went on as long as it did. As I thought too, it was pretty silly to me. I just wasn't happy with the ending, the "solution" was a bit unacceptable, and rejoicing in others folly isn't very nice. That's all.

[leekohler]

I don't know why it went on as long as it did. As I thought too, it was pretty silly to me. I just wasn't happy with the ending, the "solution" was a bit unacceptable, and rejoicing in others folly isn't very nice. That's all.

What "solution" would you propose?

[leekohler]

Quite true - I hadn't though about that, but there were a number of other "scribblings" on the wall. Bring 'em all in!

There's a picture on chicagotribune.com of a woman writing on the wall next to the stain. So- why wasn't she arrested? She was also defacing public property. They mention her name and everything. I'm sure she wasn't the only one. This guy's going to get off easily.

[Hemingray]

Uh huh, I don't care if those wackos were Catholics, Baptists, or any other flavor of the cult of Christianity. The point here is that because it was a Christian thing that somehow the whole world had to stand still and witness. I highly doubt there would have been nearly the same hooplah if this were related to any other religion. Its the holier-than-thou theocratic Christian America that thinks it is entitled to this country's laws and social programs that allows this kind of crap to happen. This is a tiny, tiny example of a much larger iceberg - hasn't anyone else noticed how suddenly emboldened the entire Christian cult has become in this country?

Calling Christianity a cult is rather offensive. Whether you agree with their teachings or not, please show some respect.

The whole world did not stand still for this ridiculous display of the faithful, nor did they stand still for the grilled cheese sandwich on eBay, or any other myriad of "sightings". It's a novelty, and news sources love it. This is the stuff that makes you scratch your head and think "WTF?"

Your attitude against the "holier-than-thou theocratic Christian America" is rather frightening to me. Whether you like it or not, they ARE entitled to this country's laws and social programs as much as the next person. Any less undermines our freedom.

[emw]

So- why wasn't she arrested?I'm assuming that's a rhetorical question. ;)

[leekohler]

I'm assuming that's a rhetorical question. ;)

Yes-:)

[leekohler]

Your attitude against the "holier-than-thou theocratic Christian America" is rather frightening to me. Whether you like it or not, they ARE entitled to this country's laws and social programs as much as the next person. Any less undermines our freedom.

Their attitude toward anything different from them is frightening to ME. I don't see anyone passing laws forbidding Christian marriage or inhertance rights, etc. Sorry-they are the ones undermining people's freedom the most these days.

[emw]

Whether you like it or not, they ARE entitled to this country's laws and social programs as much as the next person.In most cases, apparently, they are entitled to more... at least they can get married.

Edit: I see lee beat me to it. Never pause during a response...

[leekohler]

here's the pic of the woman writing on the wall. Arrest her now! :)

[stubeeef]

What "solution" would you propose?

that is just it, no easy answer, but a nuke strike (black paint) wasn't on the list either.

[leekohler]

that is just it, no easy answer, but a nuke strike (black paint) wasn't on the list either.

Well, my answer is they shouldn't have let this go on for a month. The police should have started clearing this away after about a week. People started planning alternate routes to work to avoid the congestion. I"m telling you, if it were anyone else, it wouldn't have lasted a day.

[FoxyKaye]

Calling Christianity a cult is rather offensive. Whether you agree with their teachings or not, please show some respect.
Cry me a river. Why? There's nothing in the entire religion that indicates otherwise to me. If folks think it's a-OK to post homophobic drivel on MR in other threads, I can call Christians anything I want.

Your attitude against the "holier-than-thou theocratic Christian America" is rather frightening to me. Whether you like it or not, they ARE entitled to this country's laws and social programs as much as the next person. Any less undermines our freedom.
Entitled to the full protection, freedom of expression and religious preference, yes. Trying to put creationism BS in our school curriculums, undermine womens' right to choose an abortion, deny gays and lesbians full marriage equality, shutting down HIV/AIDS prevention programs that distribute condoms, impose right-wing nutjob judges who think the Bible should govern our legal system into our courts, and playing games with legal and IRS codes so that churches can get into the business of endorsing and running with political campaigns all so that we have a "culture of life" (as our President so eloquently puts it) in the United States - need I go on?

[leekohler]

Cry me a river. Why? There's nothing in the entire religion that indicates otherwise to me. If folks think it's a-OK to post homophobic drivel on MR in other threads, I can call Christians anything I want.


Entitled to the full protection, freedom of expression and religious preference, yes. Trying to put creationism BS in our school curriculums, undermine womens' right to choose an abortion, deny gays and lesbians full marriage equality, shutting down HIV/AIDS prevention programs that distribute condoms, impose right-wing nutjob judges who think the Bible should govern our legal system into our courts, and playing games with legal and IRS codes so that churches can get into the business of endorsing and running with political campaigns all so that we have a "culture of life" (as our President so eloquently puts it) in the United States - need I go on?

You GO girl! :)

[leekohler]

Breakings News! Mary can't be stopped! It must really be her! :) Hmm.. and they weren't going to release the guy's name to keep him safe. What does that say?

'Virgin Mary' image returns

By Patrick Rucker and Nancy Ryan
Tribune staff reporters
Published May 6, 2005, 2:30 PM CDT



An image some considered to be that of the Virgin Mary reappeared today after vanishing under a layer of paint state highway workers had applied to it.

A man late Thursday night allegedly used black shoe polish to deface the image, on a concrete wall of the Fullerton Avenue underpass of the Kennedy Expressway. The Illinois Department of Transportation responded by having a crew use brown paint to cover the graffiti. In doing so, they painted over the entire image.

All that remained by daybreak was a freshly painted outline, surrounded by flowers and candles of what, in the three weeks since the image first appeared, had become a makeshift shrine.

But the faithful turned out, and one or more people somehow began to remove the paint. It was not known how they did it, but by afternoon, the image was back largely intact and apparently with no sign of the graffiti that had marred it.

Police said they arrested Victor Gonzalez, 37, of Chicago shortly after witnesses saw him use black shoe polish around 11:30 p.m. Thursday to paint the words "Big Lie" and what appeared to be a crude swastika over the image.

Gonzalez was arrested riding a bicycle at Diversey and California Avenues, a few blocks northwest of the underpass. He was charged with misdemeanor criminal damage to state-supported property, police spokesman David Banks said.

The suspect was released on bond this morning and was assigned a June 21 court hearing. Authorities gave his address as the 2700 block of North Menard Avenue, but family members there said the man is a transient who has no permanent residence.

They said after Gonzalez was freed on bond, he told them he was going to a West Side hospital where he previously had been treated for psychological problems.

Police were initially reluctant to release Gonzalez's name because of concerns outrage over the defacement might jeopardize his safety. "This could be a nasty thing," Banks said. Meanwhile, IDOT ordered the image painted over.

"Basically, it became graffiti and that is how we treated it," said Mike Claffey, spokesman for the agency. "We were trying to be hands off and treat it like any other roadside memorial, but that changed overnight."

Word of the incident spread quickly, and people started showing up to look and pray as early as 4 a.m., CLTV reported.

Several, like Gonzalo Izurieta, were upset.

"There's a lot of people in this country that are Catholic, that believe in the Virgin Mary. It was wrong what they did. It was wrong," Izurieta said.

Another passerby, Corey Higgs, told CLTV, "They found the Virgin in the grilled cheese (sandwich), they found Jesus in some French fries, whatever, you know, that's great. If that's what people want to believe in, if they want to say that's something significant, that's fine."

The large stain on the concrete wall drew national attention after pilgrims began gathering at the site in mid-April to look at what they believe was the image of the Blessed Mother. They came alone or in large groups, leaving behind flowers and candles.

Believers said the stain showed the outline of the Virgin Mary's face wearing a cloak. Some said it more closely resembled a chess pawn—if not just grime.

Even Cardinal Francis George commented on the shrine April 25: "If it's helpful in reminding people of the Virgin Mary's care for us and love for us, that's wonderful."

Tribune wires contributed to this story.

[emw]

Here (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/custom/photos/chi-050419virgin-photogallery,1,3694582.photogallery?coll=chi-news-hed) for pictures.

Looks like it's mostly gone, aside from the outline.

[leekohler]

Here (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/custom/photos/chi-050419virgin-photogallery,1,3694582.photogallery?coll=chi-news-hed) for pictures.

Looks like it's mostly gone, aside from the outline.

I thought so too. But I'm sure that certain people can still see it. BTW- Keep your alternate routes to work folks! Looks like we're stuck with this one for longer than we'd hoped! :)

[FoxyKaye]

Here (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/custom/photos/chi-050419virgin-photogallery,1,3694582.photogallery?coll=chi-news-hed) for pictures.
Wow. Now it really looks vaginophallic (if such a word exists). I think I saw something similar in The Wall.

[leekohler]

Yeah-and now we're stuck with it for God only knows how long. I'm sure it'll be all over the news too. If the BBC picks it up again, all of Europe will be laughing an even bigger laugh than the first time. Great.

[stubeeef]

Wow, that guy was great, traded the Virgin Mary for a swastika, now I see why he is so celebrated! :rolleyes:

[Hemingray]

Cry me a river. Why? There's nothing in the entire religion that indicates otherwise to me. If folks think it's a-OK to post homophobic drivel on MR in other threads, I can call Christians anything I want.

Certainly you can, that's your freedom of speech at work there. Doesn't make it any less insensitive to Christians. But I realize now you don't seem to care about being sensitive to them.

Entitled to the full protection, freedom of expression and religious preference, yes. Trying to put creationism BS in our school curriculums, undermine womens' right to choose an abortion, deny gays and lesbians full marriage equality, shutting down HIV/AIDS prevention programs that distribute condoms, impose right-wing nutjob judges who think the Bible should govern our legal system into our courts, and playing games with legal and IRS codes so that churches can get into the business of endorsing and running with political campaigns all so that we have a "culture of life" (as our President so eloquently puts it) in the United States - need I go on?

I'm not going to get into political issues here. The point was that every American has a right to his or her beliefs, whether we agree with them or not. Period.

[leekohler]

Wow, that guy was great, traded the Virgin Mary for a swastika, now I see why he is so celebrated! :rolleyes:

Exactly-now you know why so many of us find this frightening.

[stubeeef]

Exactly-now you know why so many of us find this frightening.

The troll? I thought you guys were going to contribute to his legal defense?

[MongoTheGeek]

What "solution" would you propose?

A scrub brush and lime away.

A gallon of white paint and a roller.

A pressure washer.

[leekohler]

The troll? I thought you guys were going to contribute to his legal defense?

Oh! I thought you were talking about the guy from The Wall in reference to FoxyKaye's post. Oops! :) And of course no one is contributing to his legal defense, I think he'll be just fine given that others were writing on the wall too. They'd have to charge him with "incitement to riot" or something. They only charged him with defacing the wall. BTW- how long before he gets death threats?

[leekohler]

A scrub brush and lime away.

A gallon of white paint and a roller.

A pressure washer.

Those are three solutions! And as we've seen, paint doesn't work. :)

[stubeeef]

BTW- how long before he gets death threats?

that is the possibly the saddest part of this, sometimes US christians aren't very christ like. it is a sad but very possible outcome, I would hope that it would only be aweful talk and not acted upon.

found this part of the article interesting.........

"We were trying to be hands off and treat it like any other roadside memorial, but that changed overnight."

[leekohler]

that is the possibly the saddest part of this, sometimes US christians aren't very christ like. it is a sad but very possible outcome, I would hope that it would only be aweful talk and not acted upon.

found this part of the article interesting.........

Yeah- I wonder what that part of the article meant exactly?

[FoxyKaye]

Certainly you can, that's your freedom of speech at work there. Doesn't make it any less insensitive to Christians. But I realize now you don't seem to care about being sensitive to them.
Hmmm... No. I don't. They certainly don't care about being "sensitive" to a great many folks, so why should I return the favor to them?

I'm not going to get into political issues here.
Oh dear, but that's exactly what Christianity is doing in the United States.

The point was that every American has a right to his or her beliefs, whether we agree with them or not. Period.
On this we agree. However, religious beliefs have no place in our laws. It's called separation of Church and State.

[justinshiding]

I'm going to take the unpopular view and say that I'm glad someone actually did that. Hopefully now I won't have to deal with the traffic it generated. It's silly to pray to a salt stain. As crazy as the guy who did it seemed when they interviewed him, he did make a good point that people are worshiping a salt stain...and that it's not a religious relic.

Life is easier as an agnostic. *takes a hose to the salt stain on the car, knowing that it is only a salt stain*

cheers,
justin

[stubeeef]

On this we agree. However, religious beliefs have no place in our laws. It's called separation of Church and State.

How did this get into the separation of Church and State?

[leekohler]

I'm going to take the unpopular view and say that I'm glad someone actually did that. Hopefully now I won't have to deal with the traffic it generated. It's silly to pray to a salt stain. As crazy as the guy who did it seemed when they interviewed him, he did make a good point that people are worshiping a salt stain...and that it's not a religious relic.

Life is easier as an agnostic. *takes a hose to the salt stain on the car, knowing that it is only a salt stain*

cheers,
justin

Well no- the state should have done it after about a week. And this guy's effort didn't work too well. They removed the paint and the shoe polish.

[lalcan]

Well, being a relaxed catholic myself, it's hard to take a stand here... I mean, everyone has a right to stop anywhere and pray to god, as long as he/she doesn't stand in the way of my car and get themselves in danger. On the other hand, this guy who threw the paint all over it, well, that was bad, specially since he made it in order to keep the people from worshipping an image because it's against the "second commandment" in other words, he is a religion extremist himself, that can't be good.

Good old Shakespeare would have said "much ado about nothing", but it does show how easy is to manipulate our minds, they can easily keep us distracted from the real problems we're facing as an species, i say we won't face the problems till we have less than a year to a MASSIVE catastrophe...

The remaining billion of people will be -without any doubt- better suited to worry about ecology, social issues, religion, psychology and politics, i only wonder if we'll -as i actually intend to hang on as long as possible- have spare time to post in MR...

Boy! another "the end is coming, run for your life" post! hehehe never mind, i know i'm right!

[leekohler]

Well, being a relaxed catholic myself, it's hard to take a stand here... I mean, everyone has a right to stop anywhere and pray to god, as long as he/she doesn't stand in the way of my car and get themselves in danger. On the other hand, this guy who threw the paint all over it, well, that was bad, specially since he made it in order to keep the people from worshipping an image because it's against the "second commandment" in other words, he is a religion extremist himself, that can't be good.

Good old Shakespeare would have said "much ado about nothing", but it does show how easy is to manipulate our minds, they can easily keep us distracted from the real problems we're facing as an species, i say we won't face the problems till we have less than a year to a MASSIVE catastrophe...

The remaining billion of people will be -without any doubt- better suited to worry about ecology, social issues, religion, psychology and politics, i only wonder if we'll -as i actually intend to hang on as long as possible- have spare time to post in MR...

Boy! another "the end is coming, run for your life" post! hehehe never mind, i know i'm right!

I guess that was the reason I started this thread and the first one. It seems insane to me that people are going crazy over this "apparition" when there are so many other larger things to worry about. Imagine what we could do with all the time and money that's being spent guarding this salt stain? And the media's complicity makes me ill.

[Rod Rod]

There were about a dozen people looking at this spectacle when I took these pictures on Saturday night / Sunday morning.

The last picture shows the cars parked along the on-ramp for westbound I-90/94, which is just north of Fullerton Avenue.

[MongoTheGeek]

The really ironic thing is that this was going away on its own when the guy defaced it and brought it back into the Zeitgeist. If I believed that this was a sign/miracle I would take the reaction to the defacement as God flipping the guy the bird and asserting divine will. As is I just laugh at the irony.

Think about this. The defacer was in essence feeding the trolls.

[Rod Rod]

It's true that the defacement brought it back into the national spotlight. Local news stations covered the story in more depth, including video of the state crews painting over as well as two ladies spraying paint thinner on it afterwards.

However, if the defacement had never happened I doubt the number of visitors a month after the "miraculous discovery" or appearance would have been any different. I would have stopped by and taken pictures of the makeshift shrine anyway. For me it was just a matter of being in the area after a night of partying.

About the troll, well it's appropriate that this thing is under a bridge.

[Sutekidane]

There were about a dozen people looking at this spectacle when I took these pictures on Saturday night / Sunday morning.

The last picture shows the cars parked along the on-ramp for westbound I-90/94, which is just north of Fullerton Avenue.


Wow, thats a lot of candles ^_^.

[stubeeef]

Think about this. The defacer was in essence feeding the trolls.


You so smart Mr Mongo.


they need to put up a curtain like they do at accidents so the on-lookers will not slow down.

edit: what happens if after dismantling and replacing the cement, it comes back? Or after repeated attempts at removing it, it keeps re-appearing? :eek:

[leekohler]

You so smart Mr Mongo.


they need to put up a curtain like they do at accidents so the on-lookers will not slow down.

edit: what happens if after dismantling and replacing the cement, it comes back? Or after repeated attempts at removing it, it keeps re-appearing? :eek:

Unfortunately for some people, no matter how much this thing gets washed away or painted over, it'll ALWAYs be there.

[MongoTheGeek]

Unfortunately for some people, no matter how much this thing gets washed away or painted over, it'll ALWAYs be there.

Well, yeah, but see its back and yes there will be people who go and worship there. It will be their special shrine. I know of roadside shrines where people were killed that are kept cleaned and maintained by whomever for years. Long after the inciting event. It dwindles over time. People die, pick other shrines, lose faith.

Medieval Europe was covered with them. This is like the Ashtere warned against in the old testament or the thousands of Shinto shrines across Japan and the Buddhist shrines across east asia. In the abstract they are all the same. Its the sacred rock, the sacred tree.

Excuse me. I've got a template for grilled cheese sandwiches to make.

[leekohler]

Excuse me. I've got a template for grilled cheese sandwiches to make.

Make me one with swiss. :)

[leekohler]

Her it comes. I knew somebody would say something. This guy's going to get off. This is from the Sun-Times:

[B]'Big lie' charges bogus[B]


The police charged Victor Gonzalez with criminal damage to state-supported property for writing ''big lie'' at the scene of a mineral stain under the Fullerton underpass [news story, May 7]. But the police did nothing to others who wrote messages, claiming they charged Gonzalez only because they had evidence against him. But some people had written their names and left their pictures at the site of the mineral stain.

And now two women identified openly in the media have removed paint applied to the same location by the city. Surely this is willful ''criminal damage.'' If the police single out Gonzalez and fail to charge the others, then they send the message that criminal damage of property is OK as long as the perpetrators are superstitious or members of religious cults.

The case against Gonzalez is an embarrassment. Toss it out on grounds of selective and biased enforcement.

Alan Winters,
Lincoln Park

[emw]

Her it comes. I knew somebody would say something. This guy's going to get off. This is from the Sun-Times:

[B]'Big lie' charges bogus[B]


The police charged Victor Gonzalez with criminal damage to state-supported property for writing ''big lie'' at the scene of a mineral stain under the Fullerton underpass [news story, May 7]. But the police did nothing to others who wrote messages, claiming they charged Gonzalez only because they had evidence against him. But some people had written their names and left their pictures at the site of the mineral stain.

And now two women identified openly in the media have removed paint applied to the same location by the city. Surely this is willful ''criminal damage.'' If the police single out Gonzalez and fail to charge the others, then they send the message that criminal damage of property is OK as long as the perpetrators are superstitious or members of religious cults.

The case against Gonzalez is an embarrassment. Toss it out on grounds of selective and biased enforcement.

Alan Winters,
Lincoln ParkGood for this guy for writing in. If that guy gets convicted of anything, there'll be problems, I think.

[leekohler]

Good for this guy for writing in. If that guy gets convicted of anything, there'll be problems, I think.

Especially when there are pictures of others writing on the same wall.