200GB Holographic CDR and Terabyte HD coming 2003!

peter2002 · Oct 8, 2002

Aprilis, a division of Polaroid, unvelis holographic CDR with a storage from 60 GB to 200 GB. They have released it to tech firms in Japan and Korea first. In 2003, it will be here in the USA and the rest of the world.

On a similar note, Seagate will be coming out with a Terabyte hard drive (1000 Gigabytes) sometime in 2003.

This will have huge implications to the music and movie business, since you will be able to store over 100+ DVDx quality 2 hour feature movies on 1 holographic CDR or 1000+ movies on one terabyte hard drive.

Peter

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,600628,00.asp?kc=ETTH102099TX1K0100486

MacBandit · Oct 8, 2002

Re: 200GB Holographic CDR and Terabyte HD coming 2003!

Originally posted by peter2002
Aprilis, a division of Polaroid, unvelis holographic CDR with a storage from 60 GB to 200 GB. They have released it to tech firms in Japan and Korea first. In 2003, it will be here in the USA and the rest of the world.

On a similar note, Seagate will be coming out with a Terabyte hard drive (1000 Gigabytes) sometime in 2003.

This will have huge implications to the music and movie business, since you will be able to store over 100+ DVDx quality 2 hour feature movies on 1 holographic CDR or 1000+ movies on one terabyte hard drive.

Peter

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,600628,00.asp?kc=ETTH102099TX1K0100486

The holographic CD sounds to me like it would be extremely vulnerable to scratches. I read the article with that in mind and no where in there does it talk about applications for consumers like you and me. It talks about theaters using it for digital movies and the like and other manufacturors using it but not end consumers.

Mr. Anderson · Oct 8, 2002

Whoa, that's going to be some great stuff. But the only thing that gets me is how many people are going to need that much write-once storage. It would be a waste to only use a small portion and then not be able to add more later. And I imagine it will be a little expensive at first.

Now, if I only had some 60 Gig files laying around......

D

peter2002 · Oct 8, 2002

Look man, they don't spend a billion dollars on research just to make a holographic CDR drive for 3,500 theaters. High Definition movies on such a CDR would be a good use because a HD movie uncompressed takes up about 30 GB. But I don't see HD theater movie theaters ever becoming popular. The theater owners hate it because of the $150,000 price tag. A regular film projector for a theater costs about $20,000 and will last for 20 years.

And for scratches, nothing is perfect. It would be safe to assume these new holographic CDRs would be no more vulnerable to scratches than regulars CDRs.

Besides, who is having problems with scratches? I have been buying CDs since they came out in 1983, and I never had any problems with scratches except for the time I went to a TT bar and asked this dancer to dance to my favorite CD and she is scratched it with her 5 inch stelleto pump shoe.

Peter

MacBandit · Oct 8, 2002

Originally posted by peter2002
Look man, they don't spend a billion dollars on research just to make a holographic CDR drive for 3,500 theaters. High Definition movies on such a CDR would be a good use because a HD movie uncompressed takes up about 30 GB. But I don't see HD theater movie theaters ever becoming popular. The theater owners hate it because of the $150,000 price tag. A regular film projector for a theater costs about $20,000 and will last for 20 years.

And for scratches, nothing is perfect. It would be safe to assume these new holographic CDRs would be no more vulnerable to scratches than regulars CDRs.

Besides, who is having problems with scratches? I have been buying CDs since they came out in 1983, and I never had any problems with scratches except for the time I went to a TT bar and asked this dancer to dance to my favorite CD and she is scratched it with her 5 inch stelleto pump shoe.

Peter

DVDs are very prone to scratches and we're talking about a even higher density of data with an even more complex stucture. That was just an example given by the article about the theaters. It's in there reread it. They also just talk about corporations. I think this would be a good product for archival storage. I think they could make a ton of money selling this to coporations all over the world. Think about it they could sell this system tens of thousands of dollars to these coporations because in the end they would save money on space.

I'm not trying to say that there is no application for the end user here. It's just that the article doesn't once mention it.

synergy · Oct 8, 2002

One of the future HD-DVD formats among the few being proposed has a disc inside of a case much like old computer CD drives used to be. That may increase cost for the end user but it makes the rental outfits happy and I suppose it would make the end user happy if they don't have to deal with scratched discs.
So yes having holographic storage means it is more prone to damage, but at the same time there are solutions that can be used to help prevent that.

TyleRomeo · Oct 8, 2002

look guys the point is that technology is evolving nicely, so even if this 1000GB cdr or 1000 seagate drive isnt for everyone right now, it will be evntually. im happy to see such technology being worked on. I bet before we see these 1000Gb cdrs, we'll see blu ray DVD-Rs come out and with 50GB limit, they will handle HD DVDs without any problem

by the way maxtor released a 250GB firewire drive today eventough its only a 5400RPM drive. so terabyte drives are coming soon.

tyler

MacBandit · Oct 8, 2002

Originally posted by synergy
One of the future HD-DVD formats among the few being proposed has a disc inside of a case much like old computer CD drives used to be. That may increase cost for the end user but it makes the rental outfits happy and I suppose it would make the end user happy if they don't have to deal with scratched discs.
So yes having holographic storage means it is more prone to damage, but at the same time there are solutions that can be used to help prevent that.

I had forgotten all about cases. I don't know why they don't bring them back. In fact they could do the cases like the ones on the zip discs. No more scratched rental discs how convenient.

It's been about a year now but has anyone heard anything recent about FLD (Fluorescing Layered Discs)? When a laser of the right wavelength struck the layer the whole layer would illuminate and this is what the laser pick up would read this allowed them to have as many as 8 layers/side. Giving them over a 100gigs last year.

cr2sh · Oct 8, 2002

all we need is the bandwidth to handle file sizes that require such capacity. let's face it, while storage maybe be growing in leaps and bounds, transfer rates are not. if everyhousehold was coupled with a t1 line, even then 200gigs (the smallest capacity we're talking about) would take over a half hour to transfer (optimal conditions). Yet the idea of residential t1 lines seems to be a couple years off (maybe less?).... why do we need such for the meager DSL/CABLE?

Also, transfer rates to such a harddrive will be thru what format and at what speed? I have no doubt that the capacity is coming, but at what point will we get bandwidth so that we can fully use it? Let's increase resolution and sample frequency... and though we have a place to store it... but how the heck are we going to transfer that much data? (in 1's and 0's of course!)

Maybe these are silly questions and if so please dismiss them as so, but an explanantion would be greatly appreciated, or if there's new technology someone throw me a link.. thanks guys. (It is late so maybe this will be more obvious in 6hours - goddamn morning lectures!)

<edit>
i've filled my share of 60gig drives before so i dont mean to come across as "that storage is unneeded" because i know it is... but i just feel its growing without support from other related technology which it is dependant on...

peter2002 · Oct 8, 2002

Verizon DSL

Verizon has a new DSL with 6,000,000 bits per second download bandwidth which is 4 times faster than T1. The cost is about $70 a month for unlimited bandwidth.

You can download a 200 gigabyte file in about 75 hours at that rate. Not bad.

Peter

Go here to see if Verizon DSL is available for your area

http://www22.verizon.com/ForYourHome/DSL/default

Sorry about the math error

elohim01 · Oct 9, 2002

Can you give some more info about the Verizon DSL? Is it available everywhere?

cb911 · Oct 9, 2002

that's cool that we will have such massive storage soon. awesome for all the video, and other production type people.

and what's up with that Verizon DSL?!!

you gotta post a link or something on that...

benixau · Oct 9, 2002

Introducing the massive 350MB HDD

Yay!! lots more storage in even less space.
As for the no consumer needs, lets see ....

10yrs ago: 350MB HDD - CDROM:650MB

4yrs ago: 3GB HDD - CDROM:650MB CDR:650MB(brand new)

today: 30GB HDD - CDROM/R/RW:800MB DVD:9.4GB DVDR upto 9.4GB

These are on consumer machines. Some are even better. I mean these arent the maximum sizes for that time just what a very low end machine will get you. The fact is: the more the merrier.

MacRib · Oct 9, 2002

Your chronic values don't seem to be right at all:

Ok, 10 years ago, 350 MB HD maybe were stat-of-the-art. But four years ago, 3 Gig should be? Surely not. As long as the new iBook won't come out, I've got an 1997 Siemens Nixdorf Scenic Computer (P1 200MMX), whose 3 Gig HD I've just changed a few months ago against a 60 GB one. And this Computer has never been State of the art! And even DVDs (ram) have been available in 1998, havent they?

nicely · Oct 9, 2002

Huge CD-R

Originally posted by peter2002
High Definition movies on such a CDR would be a good use because a HD movie uncompressed takes up about 30 GB.
Peter

An hour and a half of non-high definition television is about 100 GB, and that's offline quality, not uncompressed. I would imagine that uncompressed HD would be much much more than 30 GB. Even if these CDs can hold 200 GB, I don't think it would be enough. I think the future of digital movie distrobution is in encrypted broadband.

MacBandit · Oct 9, 2002

Re: Verizon DSL

Originally posted by peter2002
Verizon has a new DSL with 6,000,000 bits per second download bandwidth which is 4 times faster than T1. The cost is about $70 a month for unlimited bandwidth.

You can download a 200 gigabyte file in about 75 minutes at that rate. Not bad.

Peter

I think you have a little mistake in your calculations.

6Mb/s = 750KB/s = 45MB/Min

200,000MB / 45MB/Min = 4,444.44Minutes

4,444.44Minutes/60 = 74.074 Hours.

MacBandit · Oct 9, 2002

Originally posted by MacRib
Your chronic values don't seem to be right at all:

Ok, 10 years ago, 350 MB HD maybe were stat-of-the-art. But four years ago, 3 Gig should be? Surely not. As long as the new iBook won't come out, I've got an 1997 Siemens Nixdorf Scenic Computer (P1 200MMX), whose 3 Gig HD I've just changed a few months ago against a 60 GB one. And this Computer has never been State of the art! And even DVDs (ram) have been available in 1998, havent they?

None of the sizes he listed were state of the art. The Macintosh IIVx came with up to a 400MB hard drive in '92 and I've never known Apple to use the biggest drive available in any of there computers. Though I do agree that his later sizes seem small by comparison. 4years ago should have 6-10GB and today should be between 80 - 120 GB. Just look at what the new towers are shipping with on the base systems.

MacBandit · Oct 9, 2002

Re: Huge CD-R

Originally posted by nicely

An hour and a half of non-high definition television is about 100 GB, and that's offline quality, not uncompressed. I would imagine that uncompressed HD would be much much more than 30 GB. Even if these CDs can hold 200 GB, I don't think it would be enough. I think the future of digital movie distrobution is in encrypted broadband.

What level of HD are you talking full HD or one of the lesser form like 720p, 1080p etc..

They are supposed to have HD DVDs out by the end of next year on less then a 30GB disc. At what level of resolution is yet to be seen.

LethalWolfe · Oct 9, 2002

Re: Re: Huge CD-R

Originally posted by MacBandit

What level of HD are you talking full HD or one of the lesser form like 720p, 1080p etc..

They are supposed to have HD DVDs out by the end of next year on less then a 30GB disc. At what level of resolution is yet to be seen.

I haven't looked into it, but I bet the HD DVDs are going to be very compressed (by HD standards). They'll be higher quality than current DVDs, but you aren't going to full blown HD quality at a consumer level. Much like there are levels of current video quality (ex. full blown HD, DigiBeta, BetaSP, DV, DVD, VHS) there will be various "levels" of HD spanning from pro use to home use.

BTW a 90min DV movie will take up around 18gigs and that's just for picture and stereo audio (no bonus feagures or 5.1 sound).

Lethal

peter2002 · Oct 9, 2002

Verizon DSL

Go here to see if Verizon DSL is available for your area

http://www22.verizon.com/ForYourHome/DSL/default

Sorry about the math error earlier. I meant to say to download a 1 Gig file in 22 minutes with Verizon 6MegBit DSL. For folks who are downloading things like a movie in DivX format, that is pretty fast. I just checked their web site, it may not be available yet.

Peter

cryptochrome · Oct 9, 2002

Originally posted by cr2sh
all we need is the bandwidth to handle file sizes that require such capacity. let's face it, while storage maybe be growing in leaps and bounds, transfer rates are not. if everyhousehold was coupled with a t1 line, even then 200gigs (the smallest capacity we're talking about) would take over a half hour to transfer (optimal conditions). Yet the idea of residential t1 lines seems to be a couple years off (maybe less?).... why do we need such for the meager DSL/CABLE?

Bandwidth, Smandwidth. The mail has more bandwidth than any other technology, especially with 200GB disks. One 200GB disk is like, I dunno, a year's worth of new porn in H.264/MPEG4 format with reasonable quality (OK, maybe just a month or two). Fitting an entire season worth of TV on one would be child's play, and fitting 100 episodes on a disk is not out of the question. You could just send people an entire archive worth of material, and grant them access using keys sent over the net. Granted it's not for the freshest of material, but it will suit a lot of purposes. At the consumer level the only really large files people have to deal with these days are video, games, and other multimedia.

BTW, I also think FMDs and especially FMCs from http://www.c-3D.net sounded very promising, but I can't even reach their website anymore. Having worked with flourescent substances before, I know that like all pigments they have a tendency to bleach over time - I suspect that might have proven to be an insurmountable problem. But I don't know.

cr2sh · Oct 9, 2002

Originally posted by cryptochrome
You could just send people an entire archive worth of material, and grant them access using keys sent over the net.

That's exactly my point. You just suggested burning a cd and then mailing it to someone.... (i think you did at least) Because transferring those files over the net would be ridiculous...
Also, once they get the cd to their house and they want to rip files to their terabyte harddisk drive... it would take how long (an hour?) to do so?
I think bandwidth is a worthy matter to consider... IMHO.

MacBandit · Oct 9, 2002

Originally posted by cr2sh

That's exactly my point. You just suggested burning a cd and then mailing it to someone.... (i think you did at least) Because transferring those files over the net would be ridiculous...
Also, once they get the cd to their house and they want to rip files to their terabyte harddisk drive... it would take how long (an hour?) to do so?
I think bandwidth is a worthy matter to consider... IMHO.

At the current fastest CD speed that is readily available. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that is 48x.

That is 432MB/Minute or only 25.92Gigs/Hour. Hopefully this speed too will double or triple in the next year or two.

asparagui · Oct 9, 2002

HD Video

1 hour of 1080p uncompressed HD (Theatre Res) is ~330GB. (150MB/sec)

Which DVD spec will be used to create HD-DVD's is currently unclear. One group wants to push in 30GB DVD's, which would require everybody to buy new DVD players with blue wavelength lasers.

The other group wants to use MPEG-4 and use existing DVD technology, but force everybody to buy a new DVD players with a MPEG-4 chipset.

Nobody's sure who's going to win.

-Brett

P.S. As for me, I'm gonna be getting a 320GB Maxtor for Christmas. Yay.

benixau · Oct 10, 2002

Originally posted by MacBandit

None of the sizes he listed were state of the art. The Macintosh IIVx came with up to a 400MB hard drive in '92 and I've never known Apple to use the biggest drive available in any of there computers. Though I do agree that his later sizes seem small by comparison. 4years ago should have 6-10GB and today should be between 80 - 120 GB. Just look at what the new towers are shipping with on the base systems.

Thankyou, I didnt say state of the art. If you knew -zip- about computers then you aren't going to get the best of the best. your going to get the cheapest new computer you can afford. I know, I had an LC630, then (sadly) a PC and now i have a cheapo PC (hey, i have ordered 2 brand new G4s and didnt have enought left over for a PB).

PS. I got the PC for my family so that i could get the macs, I thought it was the best deal of a lifetime.

200GB Holographic CDR and Terabyte HD coming 2003!

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