Motorola iTunes Mobile Phone - in July?

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Gizmodo posted (http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/cellphones/motorola/index.php#motorola-confirms-itunes-mobile-software-launch-for-july-102830) what appear to be screenshots from the development version if iTunes Mobile. The iTunes-enabled Motorola phone is expected to arrive in mid-July according to an email posted by Gizmodo.

Apple and Motorola announced (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/07/20040726213823.shtml) the plans for an iTunes-compatible Motorola cellphone back in July 2004. The phone, however, has seen delays (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2005/03/20050310012739.shtml) attributed to reluctance from mobile carries from supporting the phone.

Most recent comments (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2005/04/20050421024853.shtml) from Motorla's CEO placed the phone's delivery "in the next few months".

[iJaz]

I hope they'll put it in the RAZRs, they are nice!

[nms]

I hope they'll put it in the RAZRs, they are nice!

so do i!

but.....this is nothing special. even the screenshots are bland...oooh 2nd post!

[lokey]

I'm not overly impressed. I've had a Motorola phone since the StarTac and I'll be honest... their software is kind of goofy. It works fine, but it's kind of clumsy. I was hoping to see some major improvements from Motorola with the help of Apple, but it seems to me this is just an iTunes Mobile app running on top of Motorola's sub-par software.

Sigh... I'm hoping for more.

[Dr.Gargoyle]

Any pics of the actual phone, and not just the UI?

[iGary]

What's the likelyhood of thie making it into other vendor's phones?

Anyway, I wonder who would really use their phone as an "iPod" if you will.

Anyone?

[Dr.Gargoyle]

I hope they'll put it in the RAZRs, they are nice!
Don't you think you need another hardware interface? I was basically hoping for an iPod with phone capabilities and not the other way around.

[nutmac]

It's got that ugly Moto font... I hope it adopts iPod photo font, which looks much nicer.

[mainstreetmark]

Yeah, I don't really care about this for some reason. The marriage of iTunes and a cellphone just isn't hitting the geek factor for me.

And you can gosh darn well bet that SprintPCS won't be using that phone for the next 5 years, and we're still trying to teach them about the magical technology known as "bluetooth"

[Dr.Gargoyle]

What's the likelyhood of thie making it into other vendor's phones?

Anyway, I wonder who would really use their phone as an "iPod" if you will.

Anyone?
I would... assuming it would be more of an iPod than phone. I doubt that a phone that can play music will be a hit. More or less all new phones from Nokia and SE can do that. An iPod that double as a phone would be a different story though

[macridah]

Not too bad ... I hope theres some improvements before it gets officially released.

[lokey]

The real question is: How involved was Apple in the actual development of the phone. Obviously Apple developed iTunes Mobile, but that is just a piece of software. Really, I'm not looking as forward to this anymore. :mad:

[zelmo]

Not too excited about music on my phone, although I am curious to see what this thing will look like. I'd be much more interested if Apple were designing the entire GUI. A cell phone that had the look and feel of Tiger (Mac OS Cub?), with or without iTMS, would be schweet.

[tamtam]

Anyway, I wonder who would really use their phone as an "iPod" if you will.


I don't buy into everyone wants to carry one device to do everything. All in one devices always end up as compromises. I will stick to using my phone and iPod for what they are designed for in the first place.

[nms]

just thinking about this...why the hell do you want iTunes on a phone? even the iPod doesn't RUN mobile iTunes! they must be thinking of some crappy store interface...it seems to rubbish for apple to lend their name to a piece of tat like that.

[enoch]

Apple make the best user interfaces - the software they produce is known for ease of use.

Motorola make good phones with terrible user interfaces. They are known for the best hardware in terms of phones - and feared for the abject misery that their user interfaces cause.

Still, they say opposites attract...

[nms]

Apple make the best user interfaces - the software they produce is known for ease of use.

Motorola make good phones with terrible user interfaces. They are known for the best hardware in terms of phones - and feared for the abject misery that their user interfaces cause.

Still, they say opposites attract...

apple also make bloody good hardware thats just as stylish. if apple wanted to make a phone, why didnt they? if they didnt want to, then why make a half-assed iTunes for mobile, people can just buy a Shuffle...

[MarcelV]

We are talkking here about a Moto phone with iTunes Mobile. Nowhere Apple or Motorola ever stated this was the iPhone everyone was waiting for.... There will be a bunch of disappointed people this June/July. And I am not sure why, they both were clear on that for several months now. So, just set your expectations lower. Maybe, Apple will surprise us in June, but don't count on it!

[lokey]

We are talkking here about a Moto phone with iTunes Mobile. Nowhere Apple or Motorola ever stated this was the iPhone everyone was waiting for.... There will be a bunch of disappointed people this June/July. And I am not sure why, they both were clear on that for several months now. So, just set your expectations lower. Maybe, Apple will surprise us in June, but don't count on it!

You're right. People were expecting something else. I know I was! Regardless, Apple's part in this specific device is still unclear, although it seems more and more that they simply added their iTunes Mobile app to what might be an existing phone with minor upgrades.

[jcontonio]

I just hope it's

1.) GSM
2.) Bluetooth/iSync compatible
3.) is a flip phone
4.) has an Apple logo on it somewhere and matches my powerbook.

Until then, I'll stick with the Sony Ericsson I just bought off ebay that doesn't ring =) I don't think I'd use the iTunes functionality at all...I just want a good phone with good bluetooth support, unlike all of Motorola's phones. Way to support standards guys.

[MontyZ]

Are you guys kidding? I think this will be a HUGE success for Apple and Motorola. A LOT more kids and people in general have cell phones than they do iPods. Apple could make a fortune in Japan alone with iTunes on cellphones. Kids there go crazy over this kind of stuff, and that eventually spreads here. The moment the first kid starts playing is favorite tunes on his cellphone in school, you can bet there will be a mad dash by all his friends to do the same ... and so on, and so on...

[MontyZ]

I hope they'll put it in the RAZRs, they are nice!
I've got a RAZR v3 and so does my biz partner, and they ARE beautifully designed, but, have a few technical glitches in them.

[iJaz]

I've got a RAZR v3 and so does my biz partner, and they ARE beautifully designed, but, have a few technical glitches in them.
Ok, then I hope they put it in the next RAZR revision :D

[germ war]

iTunes is the least of my concerns. If they can make this a small, flip-style phone w/ bluetooth, I will buy one.

[SFVCyclone]

Are you guys kidding? I think this will be a HUGE success for Apple and Motorola. A LOT more kids and people in general have cell phones than they do iPods. Apple could make a fortune in Japan alone with iTunes on cellphones. Kids there go crazy over this kind of stuff, and that eventually spreads here. The moment the first kid starts playing is favorite tunes on his cellphone in school, you can bet there will be a mad dash by all his friends to do the same ... and so on, and so on...


I agree, just a while ago i recorded some piece of music into my t637 and heard it elsewhere and i was like WOW it would be soooo cool if i could have my favorite songs on this phone, but too bad it only has like 2 megs TOPS of memory if not i would record more songs into it. AND as a side note, i bet the phone will be shown at the WWDC its just in a few weeks from now, less than a month. :)

[lokey]

We'll have to wait to see the actual device before really seeing how it will work, but I'm looking more forward to Sony Ericsson's W800 Walkman branded cell phone. I'd really like an Apple Phone that is essentially a cell phone mated with an iPod Shuffle. I think that would really take off.

But who am I? I don't make those decisions.

[rockthecasbah]

I'm not sure what the phone will look like or how much it will emulate the iPod or anything like that. The real question is how do Motorolla and Apple expect to sell a cell phone this hyped WITHOUT ANY U.S. CARRIERS:?!?!?!?!?! In order to have the phone part, you need a carrier. If no U.S. carries will agree to support the cell phone, this whole project is going to be flop.

[MontyZ]

... but too bad it only has like 2 megs TOPS of memory if not i would record more songs into it.
Yea, that will be the biggest obstacle to overcome: the amount of storage on cellphones. But, if they can fit a decent number of songs on the teeny-weeny iPod Shuffle, it should be no problem to do the same on a cellphone.

[stephenli]

:mad:
as I can see, it seems to me that the screen is not a QVGA (320 x 240) one, which is quite a standard even in low end japanese phones. the fonts are big and ......not my cup of tea.

currently i am using Sharp 902, it have:
A perfect screen (CG Silicon QVGA)
A perfect camera (2x Optical Zoom 2mp auto focus), and
A terrible interface :(

I hope iTunes mobile phone would at lease better than my SH902
Oh...i forgot that even iPod photo have only a 220 x 160 pixel screen, is it too luxury to request a QVGA?!.....comeon steve.

[ijimk]

i am really excited about this. One question thought will apple be putting out their own apple/motorolla phone? Or will this be some kind of software that will be loaded on pre-existing motorolla phone? :confused:

[Thataboy]

I think this project is useless and that apple is pursuing the wrong strategy.

I understand why they don't make phones. however, to leverage apple technology, apple should create a mobile OS that is scaleable from cells to handhelds to smartphones.

palm is an atrocious OS. palmsource needs to die off. it is amazing how poor this OS is in 2005. an apple CE, if you will, would be a boon to everyone. phone companies wouldn't have to develop crappy OS's and interfaces, syncing would be a breeze... people could REALLY use them as an ipod sidekick once bluetooth is all built in.

apple already has tons of technology to do this, such as quicktime 7 to ink.

I love my treo hardware, but the OS is & total nightmare. my contempt for palm OS is matched only by my hatred of Windows. we need more mobile OS options. so we don't need an iPhone.... just a fantastic new OS from the king of OS's.

[shamino]

I'm not sure what the phone will look like or how much it will emulate the iPod or anything like that. The real question is how do Motorolla and Apple expect to sell a cell phone this hyped WITHOUT ANY U.S. CARRIERS:?!?!?!?!?! In order to have the phone part, you need a carrier. If no U.S. carries will agree to support the cell phone, this whole project is going to be flop.
You don't have to buy your phone from your carrier.

I can (for example) buy a phone directly from Motorola, or Nokia, or any other company. I can take that phone to any Verizon (or Cingular or whatever) dealer and (assuming the phone is compatible with their network), they will activate it.

In doing so, I (obviously) will be paying a lot more than I would from a the carrier (since carriers subsidize phone prices), but I'll be getting it without any crippled firmware and without a two-year contractual obligation.

[nms]

i am really excited about this. One question thought will apple be putting out their own apple/motorolla phone? Or will this be some kind of software that will be loaded on pre-existing motorolla phone? :confused:


I think the main thing is. we dont know bugger all about this!!!

and WHY oh WHY would apple want to become simply a software partner?

[dreamer.redeeme]

well, if it means anything, the UI has the same screen shortcut layout as the razr v3. I don't find it feasable to cram a ton more memory in a v3, but hey, more power to them. if it is at all related, the razr has dropped in (vendor) price nearly 250$ since launch. I don't think the idea of an itunes phone is very good either, at least not yet.

[SeaFox]

You don't have to buy your phone from your carrier.

I can (for example) buy a phone directly from Motorola, or Nokia, or any other company. I can take that phone to any Verizon (or Cingular or whatever) dealer and (assuming the phone is compatible with their network), they will activate it.

I don't even know how true that activation part is anymore. GSM phones store their information (including the phonebook) on the SIM card (the phones have internal phonebook memory, too, but I turned mine off).

So all I have to do is buy a new phone, charge it, and then take the SIM out of my old phone and put it into my new one. Turn on the new phone and it works perfectly on T-Mobile's network, with all my contacts moved over too.

Since AT&T Wireless and Cingular have been changing over to GSM networks, they might be just as easy. Verizon and Sprint PCS will require a visit to the dealer though.

I'd rather keep my music player separate and have cellphones and digital cameras continue to evolve together. I really want better bettery life for my phone more than anything.

[Dr.Gargoyle]

We only have GSM and UMTS in Europe, so here you are able to buy an "unbranded" phone and use it with any carrier of your choice. Most people prefer to buy their phones through the carrier, since you get it a rather hefty rebate (In Sweden it is up to about $200)
I have understood (?) that it is not as easy to switch phone with CDMA and WCDMA. But I was under the impression many carriers utilized GSM in US. If that is the case, the nonexistent support from US carriers wouldn't be that much of a problem. OK, you might lose the carrier rebate. I don't know your system, but here in Europe (at least in Sweden) you will get lower monthly fee if you don't want a "free" phone.

[Hawthorne]

Hell, yes.

I want something that can replace my PDA, phone, iPod and camera. Maybe not do each function as well, but at least stop me from looking like I have Batman's utility belt strapped around my waist. If this has the PDA capability of the iPod that can be updated via the keypad, a 1mp-ish camera, 2-6 hours of iTunes music, and a decent form factor, I'm first in line. I want it all, and I want it in on gadget.

[CubaTBird]

when is this phone coming out? eesh seems like forever... i was going to get this one instead of my samsung e317... well.. then again.. my current phone suits me fine so im good

[shamino]

We only have GSM and UMTS in Europe, so here you are able to buy an "unbranded" phone and use it with any carrier of your choice.
This makes sense, since all of the identifying "smart" of a GSM phone are in the SIM card.

I have some coworkers here who make regular trips to Europe and India. They own two SIM cards (one for a US carrier and one for a European carrier) and switch them when traveling.
I have understood (?) that it is not as easy to switch phone with CDMA and WCDMA.
There are several incompatible networks in the US (CDMA, PCS and I think a few others). As far as I know, if your phone supports the tech your carrier is using, it is no problem for them to activate it for your account on their network.
But I was under the impression many carriers utilized GSM in US.
GSM is available from many carriers, but the coverage is sparse compared to the other networks. There are large parts of the US where CDMA phones work and GSM phones do not (my parents' town is one such place.) I'm sure GSM's coverage will improve in the future, but right now I only recommend it for those people who expect to travel outside of the US.

[shamino]

So all I have to do is buy a new phone, charge it, and then take the SIM out of my old phone and put it into my new one. Turn on the new phone and it works perfectly on T-Mobile's network, with all my contacts moved over too.

Since AT&T Wireless and Cingular have been changing over to GSM networks, they might be just as easy. Verizon and Sprint PCS will require a visit to the dealer though.
Any GSM phone will work on any GSM network. You simply have to install the activated SIM card into the phone. As far as I know, this is a mandatory part of the GSM standard.

It's my understanding that Sprint/PCS has something similar, but their ID chip is not in any way compatible with a SIM card. It can be moved to other phones, but the only phones it will work in are those designed for Sprint's network.

Phones that do it the old-fashioned way (like Verizon's CDMA) must be activated by a dealer. Any compatible phone (meaning anything CDMA for Verizon) should be usable on their network, once you get them to activate it.
I'd rather keep my music player separate and have cellphones and digital cameras continue to evolve together. I really want better bettery life for my phone more than anything.
Personally, I prefer to keep it all separate.

I wouldn't want a PDA in my phone - since I sometimes need to take notes while I'm talking, and I don't always have a convenient headset.

I like the concept of a camera in the phone, but so far, phone-cameras have lousy picture quality. My inexpensive 4MP Kodak camera blows away even the best of the phone-cameras.

[Dr.Gargoyle]

There are several incompatible networks in the US (CDMA, PCS and I think a few others). That was news to me. I just thought you had CDMA/WCDMA and GSM. It gets worse since in Europe we use 900 and 1800 band. I know/think that you use 1900 right? I know that I have seen some other bands too. (800?)
The bottom line is: it seems like Moto will have to make many versions of it, assuming they want to be able to sell it on more than one market. Moreover, you won't be able to use your CDMA iTunesphone as a phone if you go to Europe... Didn't think of that aspect before.

[cemil]

If you look at the second and third screenshots, the third image is clearly photoshopped.

Evidence:

Article A) The songs are EXACTLY the same length. (3:47) (AND shot at the same time)
Article B) They are both song 1 of 10 (not convincing proof, but why not just skip to the next song?
Article C) Screenshot 3 looks fuzzier than screenshot 2. (that could just be my eyes of course)
Article D) Does the first image even make sense? Why have pause, forward, back, and iTunes button? How to control them?

I could be wrong, but I call hoax.

-Cemil

[shamino]

That was news to me. I just thought you had CDMA/WCDMA and GSM. It gets worse since in Europe we use 900 and 1800 band. I know/think that you use 1900 right? I know that I have seen some other bands too. (800?)
Yeah, there are two GSM frequencies. One that's popular in the US and one that's popular in Europe. The good phones (so-called "tri-band") support both (old A-band analog being the third). The cheaper ones don't.
The bottom line is: it seems like Moto will have to make many versions of it, assuming they want to be able to sell it on more than one market.
If they want to be compatible with all the carriers, yes. Of course, they might choose to not bother. I remember that when Handspring introduced the Treo, they only sold it as a GSM phone. I think they (or Palm, since they were acquired) later released a PCS version for the Sprint network. I don't think they ever made a PCS version.
Moreover, you won't be able to use your CDMA iTunesphone as a phone if you go to Europe... Didn't think of that aspect before.
This is unfortunately the case with lots and lots of stuff, not just phones. Sometimes because of actial incompatibilities (like NTSC vs. PAL video tapes), sometimes things that need adapters (like AC power) and sometimes artificial restrictions imposed by software (like DVD regions.)

[Dr.Gargoyle]

This is unfortunately the case with lots and lots of stuff, not just phones. Sometimes because of actial incompatibilities (like NTSC vs. PAL video tapes), sometimes things that need adapters (like AC power) and sometimes artificial restrictions imposed by software (like DVD regions.)
Well, most people don't travle with their TV sets ;) Most eletrical appliances, that are thought of to be portal/mobile, are compatible with both 110v and 220-250v. Most DVD-players here in Europe can be bought or converted regionfree, so DV-movies arent that much of a problem
A cellphone is very much thought of as a portable gear, so is the iPod. I travel a lot and I know all too well about the hassle with cellphones on international travels. In most cases it is cheaper/easier to buy a phone when you come to US. (Just imagine paying $4/min on a local call) The same problems would apply for americans with CDMA phones going to GSM countries. Incompatible or very expensive.
As I see it, a lot of the simplicity of the iPod is lost when you combine it with a cellphone, due to this mess of diff. standards.
The sorry fact is that the next gen. doesn't look much better with WCDMA and UTMS. :(

[Misplaced Mage]

While there is a variant of SIMs for CDMA use (RUIMs), only some Asian carriers use them. Sprint and Verizon have become increasingly restrictive of the phones they will activate on their networks. Yes, you can buy a phone neither would sell you directly from a manufacturer, but if its ESN isn't in the carriers' databases of "permitted" ESNs (provided by the manufacturers to the carriers with each lot of phones shipped to the carrier), you're going to have a hard time activating it. It's not that they can't use RUIMs, it's that they don't want to; it gives them more control over their customers, the services they offer, and their networks.

[Dr.Gargoyle]

While there is a variant of SIMs for CDMA use (RUIMs), only some Asian carriers use them. Sprint and Verizon have become increasingly restrictive of the phones they will activate on their networks. Yes, you can buy a phone neither would sell you directly from a manufacturer, but if its ESN isn't in the carriers' databases of "permitted" ESNs (provided by the manufacturers to the carriers with each lot of phones shipped to the carrier), you're going to have a hard time activating it. It's not that they can't use RUIMs, it's that they don't want to; it gives them more control over their customers, the services they offer, and their networks.
This only applies to CDMA and not to GSM. right?
If I have understood it correctly, the GSM network is gaining ground in US. Since switching carrier/phone is just a matter of switching a SIM card things might become better for you.
I still see a problem when it comes to a Phone/iPod. People, like myself might be ok with buying a cheap phone when you travel over the puddle, but I doubt that they would be ok with buying a new iPod.

[Misplaced Mage]

Correct, at least so far.

[aswitcher]

I really hope these phones appear on plans quickly...

I have a funny feeling they will be sold at Apple stores and wont be cheap...nor will the aceessories - pessimistic much ;)

[Dr.Gargoyle]

Correct, at least so far.
I believe that the GSM standard imposes much harder restrictions on the carriers when it comes to "locking in" their customers. The SIM cards they provide must work on all certified phones.

[Dr.Gargoyle]

I really hope these phones appear on plans quickly...

I have a funny feeling they will be sold at Apple stores and wont be cheap...nor will the aceessories - pessimistic much ;)
Do you use CDMA or GSM in Oz?
I share your fears when it comes to the price of the phones and accessories.

[Misplaced Mage]

Yeah, there are two GSM frequencies. One that's popular in the US and one that's popular in Europe. The good phones (so-called "tri-band") support both (old A-band analog being the third). The cheaper ones don't.Not quite right. Analog (AMPS) runs in the same 800MHz band used by CDMA, GSM, and the old TDMA standard. This was one of the reasons the carriers wanted everyone to switch over to digital phones when they started turning on the digital networks -- more capacity (i.e., customers) without buying more spectrum. :) Due to all the carrier acquisitions and inter-carrier roaming agreements, there's little distinction today between the original "cellular" 800MHz bands and the "PCS" 1900MHz bands other than from RF engineering and spectrum allocation standpoints.

So your typical tri-band GSM phone will work on the 800, 1800, and 1900MHz bands. Unfortunately, you're not going to see the 1800MHz bands made available to US carriers any time soon; they've been used by the US military for years. There was talk a few years ago of asking the DOD to give up those bands, but then came 9/11, and that was that.

[Dr.Gargoyle]

So your typical tri-band GSM phone will work on the 800, 1800, and 1900MHz bands.
The European triband operates on 900, 1800, 1900. That is more or less standard over here. The fancy phones are quadband. Besides the already mentioned, the phones handles UMTS aswell (whatever frequency that is).

[Misplaced Mage]

I believe that the GSM standard imposes much harder restrictions on the carriers when it comes to "locking in" their customers. The SIM cards they provide must work on all certified phones. More at carrier request than anything. An "unlocked" phone will work with any SIM inserted without any further software modification. Since the US CDMA carriers don't use SIMs, their phones have carrier-specific features enabled/disabled with small files stored in the phone's firmware. Not terribly difficult to change or edit if you know what you're doing, but nothing as simple as swapping out a SIM, either.

[Misplaced Mage]

The European triband operates on 900, 1800, 1900. That is more or less standard over here. The fancy phones are quadband. Besides the already mentioned, the phones handles UMTS aswell (whatever frequency that is).You're right. Over here, the 900MHz band is generally considered part of the 1900MHz band. It's some weird split that came out of the PCS spectrum definition, so a 800/900/1900MHz phone is typically considered a dual-band phone ("cellular" and "PCS") here. So a quad-band phone is 800/900/1800/1900, I think.

UMTS (a.k.a. 3GSM) is a third generation (3G) cellular telephony standard (the first being AMPS, the second being the first digital standards collectively). It operates on the same frequency bands as CDMA and GSM, but using a WCDMA air interface for better spectrum utilization. It's also deliberately incompatible with the IS-95 and IS-2000 CDMA standards to avoid some intellectual property issues (*cough*Qualcomm*cough*). Throw in the early WCDMA standard Japan uses for 3G use (different from UMTS') and the TD-SCDMA standard China is pushing, and we're still a loooong way from one global standard.

[Dr.Gargoyle]

More at carrier request than anything. An "unlocked" phone will work with any SIM inserted without any further software modification. Since the US CDMA carriers don't use SIMs, their phones have carrier-specific features enabled/disabled with small files stored in the phone's firmware. Not terribly difficult to change or edit if you know what you're doing, but nothing as simple as swapping out a SIM, either.
Before we get too far off topic, dont you think all these standards could pose a problem when it comes to a Phone/iPod. A CDMA phone/iPod would be degraded to an overpriced iPod if you try to use it in e.g. Europe. IMHO, I believe that this imposes a substansial problem to a phone/iPod.
Assuming that it is not just a phone that is capable of playing music, but more of an iPod combined with a phone.

[Misplaced Mage]

Before we get too far off topic, dont you think all these standards could pose a problem when it comes to a Phone/iPod. A CDMA phone/iPod would be degraded to an overpriced iPod if you try to use it in e.g. Europe. IMHO, I believe that this imposes a substansial problem to a phone/iPod.
Assuming that it is not just a phone that is capable of playing music, but more of an iPod combined with a phone.The standards, no. At heart, they're just different protocols for moving data through the air, with the biggest differences at the lowest levels of the protocol, i.e., the physical layers. Once you're moving data, who cares how it's transmitted? Most popular cell phone applications are being written for both J2ME (Java, predominantly in GSM & UMTS phones) and BREW (Binary Runtime Environment for Wireless, CDMA/Qualcomm), so I have little doubt an iTunes app could be loaded on almost any cell phone with enough memory and downlink speed to make it worthwhile.

The big problem is that the carriers want a piece of the music pie by offering song downloads over the air. A phone that synchronizes playlists with a computer -- the very definition of the iTunes + iPod relationship -- without going through a carrier's network threatens that. After all, ringtone downloads are extremely lucrative.

[Dr.Gargoyle]

At heart, they're just different protocols for moving data through the air, with the biggest differences at the lowest levels of the protocol, i.e., the physical layers.
The problems as I see it is that these protocols are incompatible with each other. I dont care how the data is transmitted as long as it is transmitted. I dont have any use ofr a phone that I cant use, due that the local carrier uses another protocol than my phone.

[Abstract]

You're right. Over here, the 900MHz band is generally considered part of the 1900MHz band. It's some weird split that came out of the PCS spectrum definition, so a 800/900/1900MHz phone is typically considered a dual-band phone ("cellular" and "PCS") here. So a quad-band phone is 800/900/1800/1900, I think.


Close. I'm not phone expert, but I know this much......there are 4 frequencies:

850/900/1900 are used in North American GSM phones, although 900 and 1900 MHz will get you by. 850 MHz is just used in some parts of America and South Korea (and several other places), I believe, so even if you have a tri-band phone with these frequencies, you'll mostly be using 1900 and 900 MHz.

In Canada (where I'm from), we only use 1900 MHz, so unless I go to certain parts of the US, or to South Korea, I really only need dual band. ;)

In Europe and most other places, a tri-band GSM phone can operate at 900/1800/1900 MHz.

I don't know if there's an 800 MHz frequency for GSM.

Anyway, I think its more useful to get a tri-band phone from Europe because I think to myself, "When am I really going to need 850 MHz?" Its like a tri-band phone where I'll only utilize 2 bands. With a European tri-band phone, or like on my SE K700i I got in Australia, it works in more places because I have the 1800 MHz frequency thats used in some countries in Europe. :)

And the best idea would just be to create an iTunes Mobile Java program that runs on any recent phone. It would have the greatest reach and may dominate, especially when each company is making their own software just to be different. Would I like going from an HP Computer to a Dell computer if all the mp3 players and web browsers were company specific so that I had to look at a different interface depending on what company I chose? I want to use one software regardless of which company made the phone.

[Abstract]

Do you use CDMA or GSM in Oz?
I share your fears when it comes to the price of the phones and accessories.


Both. I use a GSM phone in Australia. :)

[JzzTrump22]

This phone looks sweet. What services is it going to be compatible with?

[Dr.Gargoyle]

This phone looks sweet. What services is it going to be compatible with? Just my question. Whatever service it will come with, the full concept (phone AND iPod) will only work with that particular service.
It is here I see the big drawback. If you don't travel it doesn't matter that much, but since both phones and iPods are meant to be mobile...

[ccool2ax]

Even though it was confirmed by Motorolla, it looks like a hoax. First, didnt we see the phone and a screenshot at the Keynote? for those who actually watched the whole thing?
Second, the two songs are exactly the same length, both "1 of 10", both at the exact same location in the song when the screen was taken, and had the same battery and bars. huh?

[MontyZ]

Looks like someone from Motorola just posted this comment on those screenshots that Gizmodo posted:

The correct images of the iTunes screens are still under development and are not final nor approved by either Apple or Motorola. We would expect them to be available mid July when the product launches.

Thank you in advance for removing these images from your site.

Kind regards,
System Administrator
Motorola Collective

[BWhaler]

I'm not overly impressed. I've had a Motorola phone since the StarTac and I'll be honest... their software is kind of goofy. It works fine, but it's kind of clumsy. I was hoping to see some major improvements from Motorola with the help of Apple, but it seems to me this is just an iTunes Mobile app running on top of Motorola's sub-par software.

Sigh... I'm hoping for more.

I agree.

I've been using Sony Ericsson phones since they are so Mac friendly, but I just bought my wife the Razr.

I like the form factor of the phone and the 4 network GSM and long battery life make it a winner.

...until I used it. WOW. Motorola hasn't kept up with the times.

I hope Apple and Moto have an unbelievably awesome phone in store for us. Moto hardware, Apple software. Send a F/U to the carriers by releasing a phone everyone wantgs.

that would be fantastic and a total win=win.

[Poff]

Someone made a mockup based on the E398.. hope it doesn't turn out like this, it would be a shame for Apple.. :(

http://cache.itavisen.no/images/pic13119.jpeg

[virividox]

im not holding my breath...but if they do come out i hope its something that matches my pbook

[aswitcher]

im not holding my breath...but if they do come out i hope its something that matches my pbook

Yep, that would be cool.

[bbyrdhouse]

The sound on one of these things would have to be terrible.

I can picture it now, when you download a song it will play back in that polyphonic sound. :rolleyes:

Seriously, I just dont think that this will be a big item for Motorola or Apple.

[Azurael]

Those shots look like they're based on the original Motorola P2K platform [Triplets, Talint, etc] (As my year-and-a-half-old Motorola A835 runs) from the icons & layout, which would be a significant let-down as all of Motorola's new phones will be based on Synnergy (which is the new P2K OS, as on my E1000 and the other very recent 3G phones - V980/975, C975, and will be found on Moto 2G phones soon) which looks a lot prettier, responds a lot faster and is generally less buggy.

I can't imagine that would be the case, though Motorola do have their current flagship clamshell still running the older Triplets-series OS (The RaZR V3) but if they were to use Synnergy on the iTunes Phone it would mean an almost complete rewrite of mobile iTunes for it, in which case those must be fairly old screenshots.

And no, it won't play back in 'Polyphonic' sound. (as in convert it to a MIDI file) - most modern mobile phones have fully functional MP3 players - my current E1000 even has stereo speakers built in to it if you don't want to use the headset. It can play MP3, Real Audio, WMA, AAC, etc - in fact the only reason for wanting iTunes vs. Motorola's own Java-based Media Player in my case would be the ability to synchronise/upload songs with iTunes.

[shamino]

Just my question. Whatever service it will come with, the full concept (phone AND iPod) will only work with that particular service.
Since Motorola sells phones using all the popular technologies, it's anybody's guess which they'll use for the intial release. I'm sure, if iTunes support becomes popular, that they'll release subsequent models with all the popular technologies (CDMA, GSM, PCS).

As for working with one service, obviously, the phone parts will only work with the network it (or its SIM card, in the case of GSM) are activated for. I don't expect the benefits/drawbacks of the phone parts to be any different from all other phones.

WRT the iTunes features, I'm not very optimistic. I can state with certainty that companies like Verizon will demand that it be crippled. I say this because that's what they did with my phone.

I use an Audiovox CDM 8600. This phone allows you to install screen-savers, wallpapers and ring-tones from attachments received in EMS text messages. Verizon's version of this phone, however, has the entire EMS facility disabled, in order to prevent you from doing this. They force you to buy these customizations through their over-the-air service at insane prices (like $5 for a 20-second ring tone.) (I am aware that you can install hacked firmware to put the missing features back, but you shouldn't have to do this.)

This is why the carriers are all opposed to a proper iTunes phone. They don't want you to install your ripped CDs into the phone. They don't even want you to pay the iTMS $0.99 price for a song. They want to charge you lots more - probably in the range of $3-5 each.

Of course, Motorola and Apple are refusing to allow this. They know that if people end up paying 50% of the price of an album, in order to install a single song, nobody will use the service and people will start associating the name "iTunes" with "overpriced."

[SeaFox]

The bottom line is: it seems like Moto will have to make many versions of it, assuming they want to be able to sell it on more than one market. Moreover, you won't be able to use your CDMA iTunesphone as a phone if you go to Europe... Didn't think of that aspect before.

GSM phone are almost all triband now, so Motorola will have to make two versions: A Eupoean verison with support for 900, 1800, and 1900 or something like that, and a U.S. version with 850 (Cingular), 1800, and 1900 (T-Mobile). I used to be really annoyed at T-Mobile for using 1900 mhz, because almost all the interesting phones were 800/900/1800. Now I don't have to wait for an official U.S. model, as the Euopean models usually support 1900mhz now.

[Azurael]

The European triband operates on 900, 1800, 1900. That is more or less standard over here. The fancy phones are quadband. Besides the already mentioned, the phones handles UMTS aswell (whatever frequency that is).


UMTS is the data transmission mechanism for WCDMA 2100/1900 aka 3G... This is exciting news!

[josepho]

I don't know if there's an 800 MHz frequency for GSM.



Although this might be getting slightly OTT I just wanted to say that the 800Mhz & 850Mhz frequencies are the same. Basically the frequency is closer to 850Mhz, but in the past, for some bizarre reason it was referred to as 800, that is, before it was used on GSM -- which is a fairly recent thing (before it was used for CDMA, TDMA, AMPS and iDen, still is actually). This has led to confusion as people see them as two frequencies, when actually they're the same, just with two names.

Personally, I think that if the so-rumoured iPod phone was to appear, its first incarnation would be GSM (probably with a 850/1800/1900 N.American version, and a 900/1800/1900 version for Europe), then after a while of rangling with Sprint and Verizon we might see a CDMA version come out. Whether it would be uncrippled, I don't know.

I don't think Motorola/Apple could restrict sales to directly from them, as in certain countries (for example, here in the UK) handsets are so heavily subsidised that few people would be willing to take the handset for anywhere near the full price. People here expect, and are given by the networks, almost all phones free (dependent on their monthly spend, naturally), so paying - say - £500 (~$900+) for their phone would not be on. Sure, they'd pay that for a fancy iPod, but as soon as you mention its a phone "I want my phone for free"... When will they learn, they only pay for it through their high call charges, etc. "No such thing as a free lunch", and all that.

[beatle888]

Don't you think you need another hardware interface? I was basically hoping for an iPod with phone capabilities and not the other way around.



Thats sorta what a lot of people thought but it was never the case.

Motorola makes the phone, not apple. the deal was that apple would supply a mobile version of the iTunes sotware for Motorola to put on there cell phones.
People should be talking about what Apple is going to do since the wireless companies won't do business with them. Apple cuts the wireless companies out of the revenue stream. THEY want to offer downloadable music and won't support the Apple/Motorola mobile iTunes phone. AND Microsoft is behind the wireless companies with their DRM. THIS should be what people are talking about. Thier going to wedge Apple out of the market with cheap personal devices and Microsofts DRM content. And if Microsoft uses the H.264 codek with a new media player then sure it will look good but the software will be lame. It will work ok but it wont be Apple. This can probably happen in the next ten years and the possiblity makes me wince. Isn't microsofts DRM a nightmare?

[beatle888]

I'm not sure what the phone will look like or how much it will emulate the iPod or anything like that. The real question is how do Motorolla and Apple expect to sell a cell phone this hyped WITHOUT ANY U.S. CARRIERS:?!?!?!?!?! In order to have the phone part, you need a carrier. If no U.S. carries will agree to support the cell phone, this whole project is going to be flop.


You said it. And the fact that the carriers can do this is why Apple will probably always get burned. Do you think if Microsoft was in Apples shows with this iTunes business that the carriers would stand in their way? This is going to be very interesting. But if Apple can pull it off. And you and everyone else starts to notice the HD content with QuickTime 7. And how thats built into iTunes and hopefully soon the mobile iTunes then this could be amazing for Apple. H.264 is MADE to scale from the new HDDVDs to cell phones.

QuickTime 7 turns this iMac into a 20" HDTV. It looks BETTER than any HDTV iv'e seen.

[LGRW3919]

phones with itunes are (i won't say pointless) overkill. just be kind to apple, buy an ipod and use the real iTMS. i see this as a huge flop. phones companies should write software that is simple and gets you the best talk time instead of crap that will kill it.

[beatle888]

sorta sounds like what people said about apple when they first heard that they were going to release an mp3 player.

[MagicSpic]

Just to clear up some of the mess that has been floating around this thread regarding the cell phone technologies, let's try to break it down
There are 5 main frequencies that are used world wide for cell phone communications: 800MHz (aka 850MHz), 900MHz, 1800MHz, 1900MHz, and 2100MHz (and 2500MHz is in the works).


800MHz (Aka 850MHz) is used for Legacy Analog Mobile Phone Systems (AMPS, 1G). That frequency then was also developed for use with the 2nd generation digital services (TDMA, Time Division Multiple Access; CDMA, Code Division Multiple Access; iDEN, Integrated Digital Enhanced Network; and recently GSM, Global System for Mobiles). It's speculated (keyword speculated) that Cingular will eventually develop 3G WCDMA (which is not comaptible with CDMA) and further down the line HSDPA on this frequency band. I'm not sure if Verizon is using this band in their 3g plans, EV-DO technology. With the impending Sprint-Nextel Merger, it's also speculated that they will eventually deploy 3g (EV-DO) at this frequency. (The same is true in Canada as well as in pretty much everywhere in the Americas)

This band is also known as the "Cellular Band"

900MHz in the US is used for personal wireless electronic devices. Aka, old school cordless phones, and things like that. Everyone else in the world pretty much uses this as the primary GSM frequency band

1800MHz is used by the military and the Dept. of Defence for top-secret communication stuff lol. Aditional (PCS)

1900MHz was spectrum allocated in the early 90s b/c the 800MHz band was getting over crowded. Sprint came out on top in the auctions, and they hold pretty much most of the 1900MHz in the country. There's currently CDMA (including EV-DO), GSM, and WCDMA/UMTS running at this frequency. WCDMA is only commercially running in like 5 cities, but Cingular is expected to have nationwide coverage by years end. (again, samething applies in Canada, as well as in pretty much everywhere in the Americas)

This band is referred as the PCS Band. Note that PCS is not a technology, it's a name for any service that runs on the 1900MHz freqency. So GSM @ 1900MHz is a PCS service. People get that confused b/c Sprint's original name was Sprint PCS (PCS was dropped from the name when Sprint Corp and PCS stock was merged under the FON ticker symbol) so they associate the term PCS with Sprint's technology.

2100MHz, I'm not sure what it's being used on, I think it's something TV/Cable/DigitalTV over the air related. Never the less, its unavailable. This is used pretty much everywhere else in the world

2500MHz is an upcoming spectrum band in the USA. Nextel and Sprint own pretty much everything that has become available in this frequency, they are talking about developing something with Intel called Wi-Max which would be based on some WiFi variant and is supposed to replace home broadband. The licenses however can be turned for Cellular use if the technology to run at that frequency is developed.

Now, CDMA and TDMA are backwards compatible with AMPS. The IS-95 MAP Core allows that to happen. TDMA is in its twilight as well as AMPS, they should both be gone by 2010 I estimate (Actually, AMPS is only mandated to be working until 2008). GSM also uses the same map core, but it's not compatible with AMPS. GSM is a more sophisticated version of TDMA.CDMA moved to a IS-2000 (I think) MAP Core when they Migrated to CDMA 2000 or CDMA 1X RTT (both mean the same, vaguely speaking).

So basically this is the technology path and who's compatible with who:

TDMA --> GSM (no backwards compatibility after this point)
AMPS < CDMA -->CDMA 1x --> EV-DO --> EV-DO Release A (all backwards comp.

Now GSM will follow this path: GSM-->WCDMA/UMTS-->HSDPA. Technically speaking each step is not backwarsd compatible but the phone makers achieve backwards compatibility by adding the older chips into the phone.
The bastard-child of American Cell phone Technology aka iDEN has no migration path to 3g other than for it to be shut down and coverted into either GSM or CDMA, which is the reason Nextel is merging with Sprint.

I hope this gave some technical cell phone knowledge to the masses lol.


Now for the iTunes phone, if the phone is going to be able to download songs OTA, it makes no sesnse to release it for GSM. GPRS (General Packet Radio Service, GSM's data network) has no bandwith for wide spread uses of iTMS mobile, it will bring the network to a screeching halt, max speeds are around dial-up theoretically). EDGE (Enhanced Data for GSM Evolution), the small boost to GPRS still doesn't provide enough bandwith to download a song in a short time frame. CDMA 1X, barely provides enough bandwith. This leads me to think that the phone will end up in whatever carrier's hands happens to reach real 3G first in the USA. That will mean, that it would be between Sprint PCS and Cingular. Sprint plans to go live nationwide on the EV-DO network by the end of this summer. Cingular plans to go live nationwide on WCDMA by year's end. Verizon is rolling out EV-DO by cities, with about 50 cities available as we type, and nationwide rollout by sometime in '06 if that. T-Mobile, not even worth mentioning. They won't be turning on EDGE officially until 2006 and won't hit WCDMA until 2008 proabably (so much for Deustche Telekom making money in the USA).

Given Sprint's record of being on the leading edge, or at least the first one to release a new family of products (first to color screens, first to built-in cameras, first to CDMA 1X, most likely first to national EV-DO) I would say that they will pick up the iTMS phone, and I think it will be the CDMA RazR. Granted, Sprint hasn't been too innovative lately, but the industry has been at a standstilll for a few years now.

Now there's a chance that the US may never see a wide-spread release of the phone. We're light years behind the rest of the world when it comes to mobile technology. Why? We American's have gotten too attached to the free phone business, and b/c of that companies run on a different business model than in the rest of the world. Whereas in the rest of the world companies compete on who has the best phones with the most features, here they compete on who's got the best bang for the buck, the most minutes, the most free things.