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MacBytes
May 11, 2005, 01:08 PM
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Category: Apple Hardware
Link: New Mac Mini Goes After Frustrated Windows Users (but doesn't feel like home) (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20050511140811)

Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)
Approved by Mudbug

edesignuk
May 11, 2005, 01:20 PM
For example, I discovered that Microsoft's Windows Media Player for the Mac won't always play audio and video files easily accepted by the Windows versionFunny that, who would have thought huh... :rolleyes:

Lancetx
May 11, 2005, 01:23 PM
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...

PlaceofDis
May 11, 2005, 01:25 PM
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...


i like that quote...... i might just steal it, and oh so very true too

srobert
May 11, 2005, 01:26 PM
I ... downloaded and installed drivers for my Logitech mouse.

I wonder if he even checked if it worked before downloading the drivers. I wasn't aware that some logitech mouses were not supported by OS X right out of the box.

munkle
May 11, 2005, 01:27 PM
Basically guy tries something new, it isn't the same as what he is used to, so goes back, full stop. :rolleyes:

Eidorian
May 11, 2005, 01:28 PM
It's hell to deal with the viruses and spyware in Windows but you can really tweak the OS. I miss having the ability to change my start up and performance options just with a few checkboxes and a reboot. I'll admit OS X is sleek and idiot proof but I miss the insane customization.

winmacguy
May 11, 2005, 01:31 PM
Interesting article, seems like the PC mind set is what was stopping the reviewer from making more progress. It is like he is trying to compare an Apple with an Avocado and expecting the Apple to be more like the Avocado ( if that is a suitable comparison?) We have a few Mac users at work who are PC switchers and some who have moved up to OSX from OS9 and others who are just PC users who have to do occaisonal tasks on the Mac like stuff in Office. It is mostly the familiarty that slows them down rather than the fact that you can't do it. The biggest issue is for people who dont like change in their lives.

jkhanson
May 11, 2005, 01:37 PM
Ten days! That really isn't long enough time to get to know the Mac OS. Of course it didn't "feel like home."

Dont Hurt Me
May 11, 2005, 01:42 PM
My mom is a frustrated windows user who just ordered :) thats right a new MacMini ! its my first switcher :cool: guy who wrote this article is warped.

iJed
May 11, 2005, 01:43 PM
I'm surprised that he claimed about a lack of a good RSS reader on the Mac. I've been saying the same about Windows since I started full time employment developing Windows software over a year ago.

csubear
May 11, 2005, 01:45 PM
It's hell to deal with the viruses and spyware in Windows but you can really tweak the OS. I miss having the ability to change my start up and performance options just with a few checkboxes and a reboot. I'll admit OS X is sleek and idiot proof but I miss the insane customization.

Please see: /Appilcations/Utilties/Terminal.app

The posiblities are endless

munkle
May 11, 2005, 01:45 PM
I'm surprised that he claimed about a lack of a good RSS reader on the Mac. I've been saying the same about Windows since I started full time employment developing Windows software over a year ago.

He obviously hasn't checked out NetNewsWire (http://ranchero.com/netnewswire/).

shortchannel
May 11, 2005, 01:56 PM
You know, I don't think he is making an invalid "criticism" of the Mac. I use a mac at work, and two weeks ago I got my very first Powerbook for myself (and it rocks!). His point is that we have a comfort level with the things we are familiar with. I can still work much faster in a windows environment than a Mac environment. I know that will change with time, as I become more adept, and since I am now in a Mac-only world. But for many people, the frustration of learning a new system, even if it is simple, will prevent them from making that jump. Someone who is comfortable with their computers, be them Windows or Mac, is unlikely to change just for the heck of it.

And as to the spyware and virus argument, it is true that Windows is far more susceptable to these problems. But a competent user will have anti-virus software and spyware software installed on their machine. Now obviously this is not a solution to the problem. A better solution would be a secure, stable OS like OS X which doesn't have those problems to begin with. But that being said, those people who claim that they spend all their time fighting viruses and removing spyware... well, most virus scanners run in the background without user intervention. And a good spyware program (spybot, adaware, etc) has scheduling built in to run automatic scans.

The point is this: We all love the mac. I wouldn't trade it for the world. But perhaps we're more adventurous than the average Windows user, we're willing to make that plunge to the OS X side. Others will look at it and say "Why bother? I'm comfortable enough where I am that it's not worth it to switch."

quik
May 11, 2005, 01:56 PM
You guys should back off a little bit.

There's always people flaming Windows and Wintel boxes here.

I own both, a Mac and a PC and I love both. They simply work so well together. I use my Mac all day long but when I need music or gaming, I power-up my PC to do this.

Windows isn't bad, it has good things. Mac OSX is great, but it also has some things that are problematic.

Applespider
May 11, 2005, 01:56 PM
I was astonished at his comments about wanting the freeware/shareware that he could get on Windows. I gave up installing Windows shareware on my old PC because getting rid of it again was so much effort if it proved unsatisfactory

I've found shareware/freeware for virtually every small task I've thought about doing on the Mac on versiontracker - with the added benefit that I can generally try running it from the desktop to see if it's worthwhile before it makes its way into my Apps folder and the knowledge that there's very unlikely to be any malware inside it.

I suspect that to get the most out of OS X or the Mini; you have to come to it accepting some things will be different and willing to play with it. I guess most purchasers will have this mindset unlike reviewers told to do so by their editor.

Eidorian
May 11, 2005, 01:57 PM
Please see: /Appilcations/Utilties/Terminal.app

The posiblities are endlessNote: Using checkboxes and a GUI not Terminal. I knew someone would bring Terminal up.

emw
May 11, 2005, 02:16 PM
Please see: /Appilcations/Utilties/Terminal.app

The posiblities are endless
See http://www.mremw.com/MR_Images/spell.jpg

The possibilities are endless.

;) :p

dashiel
May 11, 2005, 02:22 PM
meh, there's a ton of people with kinkades and wylands on their walls too; no accounting for taste.

munkle
May 11, 2005, 02:22 PM
You know, I don't think he is making an invalid "criticism" of the Mac...
You guys should back off a little bit.

There's always people flaming Windows and Wintel boxes here.

I own both, a Mac and a PC and I love both. They simply work so well together. I use my Mac all day long but when I need music or gaming, I power-up my PC to do this.

Windows isn't bad, it has good things. Mac OSX is great, but it also has some things that are problematic.

My criticism lies in the fact that this was essentially a vapid article. The author goes out to review OSX and comes back saying it's not the same as XP, so I gave up. I would be equally scathing if a Mac writer tried to pass off a similar review of XP as journalism.

csubear
May 11, 2005, 02:22 PM
See http://www.mremw.com/MR_Images/spell.jpg

The possibilities are endless.

;) :p


;)

I'm on my windows box at work. Not spellcheck in firefox.

PlaceofDis
May 11, 2005, 02:25 PM
;)

I'm on my windows box at work. Not spellcheck in firefox.

or grammar check i can see :p ;)

munkle
May 11, 2005, 02:32 PM
Note: Using checkboxes and a GUI not Terminal. I knew someone would bring Terminal up.

There are apps like ShapeShifter (http://www.unsanity.com/haxies/shapeshifter/) and Tinker Tool (http://www.bresink.com/osx/TinkerTool.html) available to allow some customisation.

I'm sure there are a lot more apps/themes available for XP (including a surprising number of OSX themes ;)) but I'm not a great fan of customisation so it doesn't really make a difference for me. I'm more interested in what an app will allow me to do ;)

shortchannel
May 11, 2005, 02:33 PM
My criticism lies in the fact that this was essentially a vapid article. The author goes out to review OSX and comes back saying it's not the same as XP, so I gave up. I would be equally scathing if a Mac writer tried to pass off a similar review of XP as journalism.

A valid point. :-p

I think though, that he ended up not writing a review of the Mac Mini, but of his experience with it, an experience that I think many Windows users would be interested in hearing. These forums are full of people talking about their experience with the mac, and how they think it "feels" versus Windows.

csubear
May 11, 2005, 02:45 PM
or grammar check i can see :p ;)

dang... I look like a moron today ;)


Its finals week at my university...

Eidorian
May 11, 2005, 02:47 PM
There are apps like ShapeShifter (http://www.unsanity.com/haxies/shapeshifter/) and Tinker Tool (http://www.bresink.com/osx/TinkerTool.html) available to allow some customisation.

I'm sure there are a lot more apps/themes available for XP (including a surprising number of OSX themes ;)) but I'm not a great fan of customisation so it doesn't really make a difference for me. I'm more interested in what an app will allow me to do ;)Thank you. I still need to buy myself an iMac G5 since they've been updated. My summer job should be enough to get on within a month. I'm just making all of these comments from using the iMac G4's in the Langauge Department's computer labs and OS X 10.3.8. Yep, all this from a casual Mac user and from memory.

I'm just looking for an application that allows you to tweak GUI shadows and transformation effects. In Windows XP I turn off almost all the grahpical enhancements except for text smoothing and drop shadows on icons.

BenRoethig
May 11, 2005, 03:10 PM
His closed mindedness aside, he makes some valid points, especially the issue of finding applications. I've brought this up myself before. In my opinion, this is one area where windows has an advantage. As for the shareware thing, I have no problem finding it for the Mac. He probably didn't know about sites like Mac update. As for customization, Apple has taken a step backwards on this one. I've had to use haxies to get back what I had in OS9.

SiliconAddict
May 11, 2005, 03:58 PM
What is it with Mac users and the mindset that if it isnít their way you are stupid? The fact is that a GUI and what is BEST is so blatantly subjective that even the ďexpertsĒ are full of crap at the end of the day. I have no problems believing that this person missed the Windows GUI. The difference between Windows and OS X is all that different on the surface. Itís the small stuff that drives Windows users mad and vice versa. (Or however you spell it.) I can fly through XP\2Kís GUI at light speed. Every time I use OS Xís I feel like a noob idiot. Iím the man when it comes to configuring, tweaking, setting up Windows but all of a sudden (As Steve likes to say.) BAM! Iím like a newborn to a computer. WTF is this? Where is my Windows key + E to open explorer!?!? All my keyboard shortcuts are gone. WAHHHH!! Mommy I want my OS. Seriously. An OS transition is not an easy process esp if youíve used Windows pretty much since the beginning. It is stressful process so cut the guy a little slack.

And as for the spyware/adware/virus issues. Anyone who is remotely tech savvy should never have to deal with any of these issues. I've been using Windows since 3.11. I've had one virus and NO, yes I know that's hard to believe, but no ad/spyware. It sounds like a urban legend but trust me. There are PC users out there that know how to work the ďsystemĒ well enough that they donít have to deal with such crap.

SiliconAddict
May 11, 2005, 04:00 PM
As for customization, Apple has taken a step backwards on this one. I've had to use haxies to get back what I had in OS9.

My kingdom for a BUILT IN themeing/skinning engine in OS X. There are 3rd party products but everything I've read has suggested that they can make life "interesting" when it comes time to install OS updates.

Aaon
May 11, 2005, 04:38 PM
What is it with Mac users and the mindset that if it isnít their way you are stupid? The fact is that a GUI and what is BEST is so blatantly subjective that even the ďexpertsĒ are full of crap at the end of the day. I have no problems believing that this person missed the Windows GUI. The difference between Windows and OS X is all that different on the surface. Itís the small stuff that drives Windows users mad and vice versa. (Or however you spell it.) I can fly through XP\2Kís GUI at light speed. Every time I use OS Xís I feel like a noob idiot. Iím the man when it comes to configuring, tweaking, setting up Windows but all of a sudden (As Steve likes to say.) BAM! Iím like a newborn to a computer. WTF is this? Where is my Windows key + E to open explorer!?!? All my keyboard shortcuts are gone. WAHHHH!! Mommy I want my OS. Seriously. An OS transition is not an easy process esp if youíve used Windows pretty much since the beginning. It is stressful process so cut the guy a little slack.

And as for the spyware/adware/virus issues. Anyone who is remotely tech savvy should never have to deal with any of these issues. I've been using Windows since 3.11. I've had one virus and NO, yes I know that's hard to believe, but no ad/spyware. It sounds like a urban legend but trust me. There are PC users out there that know how to work the ďsystemĒ well enough that they donít have to deal with such crap.

Hear Hear! I totally agree with you! And I too have remained unaffected by spyware/virii.

nathan2301
May 11, 2005, 05:05 PM
And as for the spyware/adware/virus issues. Anyone who is remotely tech savvy should never have to deal with any of these issues.

Here in lies the problems, most computer users aren't tech savy, and dont have the slightest idea when it comes to viruses, spyware and protecting their computers, most think "I have installed anti-virus software so I am OK" which we all know isn't the case.

I do tend to agree a little with this article, but i am the other way around. I switched to a mac about one and a half years ago, up until yesterday I hadn't touch a PC in that time. (I too started at windows 3.11) but I was lost I had completely forgotten where stuff was and was quickly begging for my Mac back. So this story reins true for both Mac and PC users.

One thing i found funny though was that Windows Explorer was brought up. No Windows + E Key, well try Apple+spacebar, its called spotlight and its much better. Although not entirely the same thing.

I am not hear to judge, if you are happy with Windows stick with it, it really isn't as bad as a lot of people make out, but I am happy with my mac and will be sticking with that.

Cheers Guys

kiwi-in-uk
May 11, 2005, 05:09 PM
... And as for the spyware/adware/virus issues. Anyone who is remotely tech savvy should never have to deal with any of these issues. ... There are PC users out there that know how to work the ďsystemĒ well enough that they donít have to deal with such crap.

Therein lies the problem. YOU know how to navigate Windows, and know how to "work" the system. Please spend two weeks in Australia & NZ teaching my relatives how to be that good, so that I don't have to support them from the other side of the world. Yes ... you got it ... it is "familiarity", whether in the operating system or in the people who end up supporting it. (Perhaps I should invoice MS for all the time I spend fixing their errors).

SPUY767
May 11, 2005, 05:14 PM
"Endless supply of freeware and shareware" reads, "I wish it was as easy to get warez on the mac as on the PC. :-(

Mainyehc
May 11, 2005, 08:12 PM
WAHHHH!! Mommy I want my OS. Seriously. An OS transition is not an easy process esp if youíve used Windows pretty much since the beginning. It is stressful process so cut the guy a little slack.
[...] I've been using Windows since 3.11.


Hmmm... Seriously, I don't get it... Am I a freak or something? It only took me 5 days playing with Jaguar, and 10 more days playing with Panther (my very first iMac G4 came with Jaguar and Panther upgrade discs) to get used to Mac OS X. Keyboard shortcuts and all, not just Exposť, maybe because those are so logic and intuitive, as everything else on the interface.

I don't miss the Windows GUI a bit, but I can still find my way around it quicker than most people, though. Yes, I use Alt+F4, Start+D and Alt+Tab (ooohhh, the lack of Exposť... :rolleyes: ), etc... Yes, yes, I love the customization, so much that I'd still be using Metallifizer (to demetallifize everything, of course) if it wasn't so buggy under Tiger, and ShapeShifter, if it wasn't shareware.

Anyway, I did that transition in 15 days. I retained the good stuff about using Windows since v. 3.0, which is, of course, still being able to dominate the damn thing as I have to use PCs very often... Two years ago I played for a few weeks with Gnome and I had a lot of fun tweaking and breaking stuff. I was an adventurous PC user; now I am a somewhat less adventurous Mac user, partly because Macs are "expensive toys" (I tend to be a bit overprotective, especially since I once lost all my stuff because of bad RAM), and partly because I use my iMac mainly for design work for my university, but I still love fiddling around (TinkerTool is cool ;) ).

And I can assure you, there are many more just like me, who may one day make the switch and not regret it, whether or not they imediatly feel confortable with the interface... :cool:

mkrishnan
May 11, 2005, 08:27 PM
My kingdom for a BUILT IN themeing/skinning engine in OS X. There are 3rd party products but everything I've read has suggested that they can make life "interesting" when it comes time to install OS updates.

I'm sure this'll happen right after OS X gets ported to Intel hardware... :p ;) :D

Probably my only major qualm as a switcher is bad ports of software that is unique enough that just grabbing a mac equivalent is not the best option (like SPSS), but ported poorly. If MS can make good Mac ports, hello.... :D

cgratti
May 11, 2005, 08:28 PM
10 year Windows user here, took me only 2 weeks to switch from a Windoze PC to OS X, and loving it.

I still have a PC, but RARELY use it. DIEHARD Mac addict now, and proud of it!

Mav451
May 11, 2005, 08:47 PM
You what this is sounding like? Like an American talking about how easy the English language is compared to Chinese. Likewise, the Chinese guy is having a world of trouble understanding the grammar of english, while passing off the memorization of thousands of symbols as "hen jian dan".

;)

The only reason I didn't freak out when I tried out Panther was b/c of my experience with Macs since I was young. My parents used Macs when they were in the chemical/pharma industry--I was using MacWrite to write a report about Egypt. So, I definitely don't represent the majority of Windows users who haven't seen the "NeXT" menu bar, or the glyphs being on the left (instead of the right).

Its all about perspective...

SiliconAddict
May 11, 2005, 09:17 PM
Therein lies the problem. YOU know how to navigate Windows, and know how to "work" the system. Please spend two weeks in Australia & NZ teaching my relatives how to be that good, so that I don't have to support them from the other side of the world. Yes ... you got it ... it is "familiarity", whether in the operating system or in the people who end up supporting it. (Perhaps I should invoice MS for all the time I spend fixing their errors).


Oh trust me. I KNOW. I just got off the phone with my uncle. His PC is toast. Not sure what happened but its doing a system dump on boot. Going over there tomorrow to see if I can at least recover the data. He asked if its time to get a new computer. Umm 6 year old HP? Ummm yah. He said what about that computer company you buy from online.....what? Dell? Yah that's the one. I think I will be discussing Macs when I go over there tomorrow night. I see a Mac Mini in their future. :D

dotdotdot
May 11, 2005, 09:40 PM
The reviewer of this article is definately those windows users who go by the following philosophy:

"I download and install it. I run it. If it screws up my computer that sucks. If not I'm cracking it so I dont have to pay money. If that screws up my computer that sucks. If not I'm so cool"

----

I use Windows and have done everything, changing BIOS and startup, login screens, hacking uxtheme.dll, hacking the windows taskbar, installing a crack that deletes explorer.exe so that there is no such thing as a windows gui, installed windowblinds, objectbar, desktopx, everything. Nothing works well.

Windows craps out on you soon after - its not windows fault, its the companies that make the software.

I always thought OS X had the most customization. Sure you are always stuck with the Finderbar in one place and the close max and min on the left side, but you can do so much more INTERNALLY that it is so much better.

Windows is like putting on a mask and make up, but you'll still play solitare.
Mac is like putting the engine of a Ferrari inside of a Kia, taking the crappy lights and putting in XENON lights from Jaguar, changing the steering wheel and adding the latest technology to it, but keeping it looking the same.

Also, with Windows there are GUARANTEED problems. With OS X there, well...there arent

840quadra
May 11, 2005, 10:51 PM
dang... I look like a moron today ;)


Its finals week at my university...

Good luck with that!! (I am serious with NO pun intended)


What is it with Mac users and the mindset that if it isnít their way you are stupid? The fact is that a GUI and what is BEST is so blatantly subjective that even the ďexpertsĒ are full of crap at the end of the day. I have no problems believing that this person missed the Windows GUI. The difference between Windows and OS X is all that different on the surface. Itís the small stuff that drives Windows users mad and vice versa. (Or however you spell it.) I can fly through XP\2Kís GUI at light speed. Every time I use OS Xís I feel like a noob idiot. Iím the man when it comes to configuring, tweaking, setting up Windows but all of a sudden (As Steve likes to say.) BAM! Iím like a newborn to a computer. WTF is this? Where is my Windows key + E to open explorer!?!? All my keyboard shortcuts are gone. WAHHHH!! Mommy I want my OS. Seriously. An OS transition is not an easy process esp if youíve used Windows pretty much since the beginning. It is stressful process so cut the guy a little slack.


The issue with people not giving OS X a fair chance is going to be a hard battle to get people to take seriously. ďEnough time with an osĒ will depend on the person, and how savvy and good they are at exploring. If you use Tiger, and get the knack of using Spotlight, you will be able to find ways to tweak your system to your liking MUCH faster, then just searching for yourself in the finder.

I wanted to change the color scheme on my box, and to do this I looked up how OSX loads color pallets and backgrounds on Google. With the names of the files I needed to edit on OS X given to be by Google, I was able to change the few things I wanted changed myself, without having to load a 3rd party application.

With the Linux integration in OSX, there are thousands of applications at our disposal, and we have the ability to do quite a bit more with the kernel then most people know how to do in XP. The issue here is the learning curve to discover exactly how to do those tweaks. For some of us the learning process is frustrating, and at the same time a fun time of discovery, much like our first comptuer.

Also from Minnesota,

840 :D

solvs
May 12, 2005, 12:53 AM
I'm on my windows box at work. No spellcheck in firefox.
http://spellbound.sourceforge.net/

It's easy to get so used to doing things the hard way, that the Mac way can even seem counterintuitive at times. But that's just because you know Windows so well and it's complicated intricacies. Night of the Tiger I watched a blind and (former now, I suppose) Windows using woman stand in front of a Mac running 10.4 and figure out how to do everything without any help (well, eventually she got a little help, but she didn't seem to need much). I've seen so many sighted people struggle with Windows that things like that just amaze me. Even if 10 held it's struggles for me at first (current Windows IT guy, and former occasional OS 7, 8, 9 user).

I still have issues with iLife sometimes because it's a little too easy at times. I guess I realized I don't need as many customizations when things just work like they're supposed to. Well, most of the time. :p

mac-toria
May 12, 2005, 12:54 AM
What is it with Mac users and the mindset that if it isnít their way you are stupid? The fact is that a GUI and what is BEST is so blatantly subjective that even the ďexpertsĒ are full of crap at the end of the day. I have no problems believing that this person missed the Windows GUI. The difference between Windows and OS X is all that different on the surface. Itís the small stuff that drives Windows users mad and vice versa. (Or however you spell it.) I can fly through XP\2Kís GUI at light speed. Every time I use OS Xís I feel like a noob idiot. Iím the man when it comes to configuring, tweaking, setting up Windows but all of a sudden (As Steve likes to say.) BAM! Iím like a newborn to a computer. WTF is this? Where is my Windows key + E to open explorer!?!? All my keyboard shortcuts are gone. WAHHHH!! Mommy I want my OS. Seriously. An OS transition is not an easy process esp if youíve used Windows pretty much since the beginning. It is stressful process so cut the guy a little slack.

And as for the spyware/adware/virus issues. Anyone who is remotely tech savvy should never have to deal with any of these issues. I've been using Windows since 3.11. I've had one virus and NO, yes I know that's hard to believe, but no ad/spyware. It sounds like a urban legend but trust me. There are PC users out there that know how to work the ďsystemĒ well enough that they donít have to deal with such crap.

I've been reading these forums for a long time now, and I must say this is one of the best responses I've seen. This board loves to be so one sided (I guess it is a Mac rumours site) that to see an actual logical take at the world of computing and people is to be commended.

I fully agree that for people who actually know how to use their pc, switching will not be something they easily do. Why f$@k with what works? I for one live and breathe with the mac, and could not imagine "switching" to a pc, but if I had to spend a week to 10 days on one like this dude did with the mini, I would probably write the same review."It was fun, but I really wanted my convenient apple-tab app switching back"

Yvan256
May 12, 2005, 01:57 PM
Ten days! That really isn't long enough time to get to know the Mac OS. Of course it didn't "feel like home."

Indeed. It took me about two weeks to get used to it. Then another two weeks for it to "feel like home".

But now, when I use a Windows box, it feels just like home too. A fifty-years old home that's in dire need of renovations, that is. :cool:

Edit: of course OS X's GUI isn't perfect. The one thing that drives me mad is the non-standard Finder windows... Some can do a preview, others can't, etc. That's the one area where I prefer Windows (even Win95) over OS X.

It's like every program has its own version of the finder instead of calling OS X to display it... I hope that's fixed in 10.4! :mad: