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MacBytes
May 14, 2005, 05:19 PM
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Category: News and Press Releases
Link: Firefox lead engineer backs Apple in KDE squabble (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20050514181944)

Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)
Approved by arn

artooro
May 14, 2005, 06:47 PM
Safari still uses KHTML. WebCore is just the Apple version of KHTML. Apple has not ditched KHTML but the KHTML developers don't like Apple's patches because they don't meet their high standard.

bousozoku
May 14, 2005, 07:01 PM
Safari still uses KHTML. WebCore is just the Apple version of KHTML. Apple has not ditched KHTML but the KHTML developers don't like Apple's patches because they don't meet their high standard.

You mean they don't meet their level of disorganisation.

winmacguy
May 14, 2005, 09:20 PM
The Firefox lead engineer did his computer science degree at Auckland University (he is a Kiwi :))

Nermal
May 14, 2005, 09:47 PM
The Firefox lead engineer did his computer science degree at Auckland University (he is a Kiwi :))

I expected to find a comment like that from you :p

winmacguy
May 14, 2005, 10:29 PM
I expected to find a comment like that from you :p
Probably because I was the one who posted it ;) There was a good article about him in the Herald a while back when he did a trip back to Auckland. Apparently a lot of the code names for the various Firefox projects are Auckland locations.

bousozoku
May 14, 2005, 11:30 PM
He's definitely a winner. I dealt with him a few times during the early Mozilla debugging and he's direct and wants to get things done.

winmacguy
May 14, 2005, 11:57 PM
He's definitely a winner. I dealt with him a few times during the early Mozilla debugging and he's direct and wants to get things done.
Sounds like a good ol' Kiwi to me. Calls a Spade a Spade.
Must say I use FF both at home on my PC and at work on my dual 1.8 G5 and it is fine on both. I like the speed and tabbed browsing the best. It is pretty good even on 56k dial up that I still use at home. I will get the NZ version of broadband (256kb) at some stage but I an still waiting for the data cap to be raised and the price to either stay the same or drop.

Supa_Fly
May 15, 2005, 12:34 AM
Sounds like a good ol' Kiwi to me. Calls a Spade a Spade... (edited for clarity)

What exactly does that term really mean? And where is its origins? Back in the early 70's Spade wasnt a very nice term :( If not sure what I mean watch Fritz the Cat & listen for the term. Still curious though as I hear that term very often.

Back on topic, sorry. What does this truely mean for Apple?

winmacguy
May 15, 2005, 01:10 AM
What exactly does that term really mean? And where is its origins? Back in the early 70's Spade wasnt a very nice term :( If not sure what I mean watch Fritz the Cat & listen for the term. Still curious though as I hear that term very often.

Back on topic, sorry. What does this truely mean for Apple?

It means you call it how you see it. A spade by any other name is still a spade. Lots of New Zealanders and probably Australians back in the 70's (before we became excessively politically correct) would call it how they saw it. For excample, if I worked with you and you were about as much use as "T**s on a bull" then I would say so accordlingly, I wouldnt make up some BS about it being an off day for you or fact that you couldn't rule a straight line because your ruler wasn't straight or something.

The other term of "Spadeing" that I am familiar with would be used to describe chatting up a girl at a bar or club.eg your doing all the "Spadework" or ground work in preparation for take her back to your pad in order to "get to know her better" ;)
Hope that helps.

Regarding the Safari vs KHTML debate and Ben Goodger, I would imagine that being a computer science graduate involved with Firefox that he would be well qualified to offer an informed opinion in favour of Apple and Safari. In short he knows what he is talking about.

Nermal
May 15, 2005, 04:49 AM
256kb

:eek:

Get Telstra cable :D

winmacguy
May 15, 2005, 05:47 AM
:eek:

Get Telstra cable :D
We don't have cable in our street.
I am with Telstra at home but am not willing to pay more than 19.95 a month for a good connection maybe 29.95 with a 10GB cap and at least 1-2mb data speeds. I currently on 12.95 for 56kbps which is ok for what I do. We have commercial Hi speed broadband at work with Telstra . I will get a broadband connection I am just waiting for the right price :D

Nermal
May 15, 2005, 06:14 AM
I have 2 Mb/s from Telstra with no data cap for $44.95 :D (although in all honesty I'm not supposed to - they're grossly undercharging me :D)

killmoms
May 15, 2005, 09:58 AM
You mean they don't meet their level of disorganisation.
No, he means that Apple is shipping gigantic change diffs of several MB worth with very little documentation, implementing both general, cross-platform fixes and Mac OS specific API calls into one huge mess that the KHTML developers have to pore over for weeks or more just to figure out what's in there, what it does, if they can implement it, and then often needing to re-write the change for KHTML. If anyone's being disorganized, it's Apple.

So yes, Apple is giving them changes made to their code, abiding by the terms of their license—they're just largely useless.

And BEYOND all that, that's not even what the KHTML devs were complaining about. They've accepted that that's how Apple has chosen to do business with them, and since they're following the license, there's no call for them to do any more unless they want to. What the original complaint was about was people saying that Apple was a good open source citizen and was helping KHTML out when they really aren't.

rockthecasbah
May 15, 2005, 10:10 AM
I have a question, why does Mozilla still offer the other browsers when Firefox is so much faster and nicer? Do they still update the other projects? It seems kinda pointless to me. I used Mozilla before Firefox came out, but now i wouldn't go back! I understand Firefox is a "light" version of Mozilla more or less, but what do the others offer that Firefox doesn't have?

bousozoku
May 15, 2005, 07:17 PM
No, he means that Apple is shipping gigantic change diffs of several MB worth with very little documentation, implementing both general, cross-platform fixes and Mac OS specific API calls into one huge mess that the KHTML developers have to pore over for weeks or more just to figure out what's in there, what it does, if they can implement it, and then often needing to re-write the change for KHTML. If anyone's being disorganized, it's Apple.

So yes, Apple is giving them changes made to their code, abiding by the terms of their license—they're just largely useless.

And BEYOND all that, that's not even what the KHTML devs were complaining about. They've accepted that that's how Apple has chosen to do business with them, and since they're following the license, there's no call for them to do any more unless they want to. What the original complaint was about was people saying that Apple was a good open source citizen and was helping KHTML out when they really aren't.

When Apple started working with the code, KHTML got much cleaner very quickly. Every post I saw from Konqueror users was that there was actually hope because the bugginess was quickly going away. Apple have squashed more bugs than the KHTML team have.

There is no doubt that Apple have renovated the engine far beyond its meager origins. It's unfortunate that the KHTML team is unable to use the enhanced code but it's hardly because Apple is disorganised. I can, however, believe that comments are lacking but I think the difference between the KHTML team and the Apple team is minimal. There is rarely a high standard in languages such as C, C++, Java, or Pascal, even at IBM where documentation must be completed for a patch to be successfully integrated into the project.

shamino
May 16, 2005, 12:07 PM
What exactly does that term really mean? And where is its origins? Back in the early 70's Spade wasnt a very nice term :( If not sure what I mean watch Fritz the Cat & listen for the term. Still curious though as I hear that term very often.
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