What’s scarier: The slaying, or the bystanders who heard and did nothing?

Nothing new to anyone who has taken a Psych 101 course. People don't get involved unless they're directly confronted.

If you ever take a first aid course, they'll tell you that if you have to tend to someone who needs emergency services, you have to look a specific bystander in the eye, point at them, and say, "You! Go call 911! Now!" Nobody will ever take any action if you just say, "Someone call 911!"

I love the reporter's spin about how Apple employees are monsters. Of course they are. We're all monsters.

bsu4phd said:

"The Apple store manager, **** ****, told police: “I heard someone say, ‘Stop, stop, stop.’ And then, ‘Oh God, stop.’"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...-did-nothing/2011/10/31/gIQA9y2tZM_story.html

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Oh my God! Its a computer store! I'm sure the employees have an online set up where they can call 911, if they are not allowed to use the phone.

What is happening to the world?

interrobang said:

Nothing new to anyone who has taken a Psych 101 course. People don't get involved unless they're directly confronted.

If you ever take a first aid course, they'll tell you that if you have to tend to someone who needs emergency services, you have to look a specific bystander in the eye, point at them, and say, "You! Go call 911! Now!" Nobody will ever take any action if you just say, "Someone call 911!"

I love the reporter's spin about how Apple employees are monsters. Of course they are. We're all monsters.

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Yes they were not confronted. They were somewhat safe since they were next door listening to the screams of one brutalized Murray.

But you hear someone dying like that, agonizing, with every thud, slap and bang and you don't even lift a finger to call 911? What the hell is the Iphone good for? What the hell is the Imac good for? Or maybe that apple store doesn't have internet or phone service?

Oh yeah, I found this (but) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuR2A2DNdis

Apparently Siri can't call 911.

interrobang said:

I love the reporter's spin about how Apple employees are monsters. Of course they are. We're all monsters.

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I wouldn't think "we're monsters" so much as we think we're all good people so we like to give others the benefit of the doubt.

It couldn't be someone really getting killed, we think. It must be a movie set, a game, a simulation. Surely nobody's actually getting hurt. Not here. That stuff only happens in the movies.

It's a good reminder though, as the article so painfully spells out, that when we see or hear something unusual, better safe than sorry.

notjustjay said:

That stuff only happens in the movies.

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Ah, interesting. Desensitization, through movies.

Oh Shrink, you're up.

Something akin to calling wolf too many times.

notjustjay said:

I wouldn't think "we're monsters" so much as we think we're all good people so we like to give others the benefit of the doubt.

It couldn't be someone really getting killed, we think. It must be a movie set, a game, a simulation. Surely nobody's actually getting hurt. Not here. That stuff only happens in the movies.

It's a good reminder though, as the article so painfully spells out, that when we see or hear something unusual, better safe than sorry.

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More likely "Surely, if it's really something bad, someone else will do something. If nobody else is calling the police, it cant be anything serious. I shouldn't get involved."

iJohnHenry said:

Ah, interesting. Desensitization, through movies.

Oh Shrink, you're up.

Something akin to calling wolf too many times.

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You called, sir? I live to serve...

interrobang said:

Nothing new to anyone who has taken a Psych 101 course. People don't get involved unless they're directly confronted.

If you ever take a first aid course, they'll tell you that if you have to tend to someone who needs emergency services, you have to look a specific bystander in the eye, point at them, and say, "You! Go call 911! Now!" Nobody will ever take any action if you just say, "Someone call 911!"

I love the reporter's spin about how Apple employees are monsters. Of course they are. We're all monsters.

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This covers it pretty nicely. I remember this stuff was covered 40 years ago in Soc. Psych. in grad school, so there's nothing new here. I don't remember specifics, but the idea of avoiding that which does not directly effect us (as mentioned above) is on the mark. Even to the remarkable extent of not even calling the police anonymously (see Kitty Genovese case).

I don't know if we're monsters - but we seem to be self-protective in the extreme. Possibly an evolutionary advantage in continued survival. But, in some way, maybe that kind of self concern is a definition of a monster.

interrobang said:

Nothing new to anyone who has taken a Psych 101 course. People don't get involved unless they're directly confronted.

If you ever take a first aid course, they'll tell you that if you have to tend to someone who needs emergency services, you have to look a specific bystander in the eye, point at them, and say, "You! Go call 911! Now!" Nobody will ever take any action if you just say, "Someone call 911!"

I love the reporter's spin about how Apple employees are monsters. Of course they are. We're all monsters.

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Currently live in CA. I would expect people to act like "oh I'm late to something" or "not my problem". I witnessed a car crash and was the first one to the car. Another 3-4 people came up and everybody was on the phone calling 911. This was in the middle of a very busy intersection. I was pretty impressed how other's helped and traffic simply moved around with no big problems.
Not everybody is a douchebag..

EvilShenaniganZ said:

Currently live in CA. I would expect people to act like "oh I'm late to something" or "not my problem". I witnessed a car crash and was the first one to the car. Another 3-4 people came up and everybody was on the phone calling 911. This was in the middle of a very busy intersection. I was pretty impressed how other's helped and traffic simply moved around with no big problems.
Not everybody is a douchebag..

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This is good to hear.

I wonder if there is a difference between being witness to an accident, and a situation of criminal violence. The accident, it might be said, is random. In a sense, impersonal. A violent criminal act is purposeful, with a clear intention to harm, which could then be turned upon us - the bystander.

I'm not at all sure - just a thought.

interrobang said:

More likely "Surely, if it's really something bad, someone else will do something. If nobody else is calling the police, it cant be anything serious. I shouldn't get involved."

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Perhaps.

It happened to me on a smaller scale (thankfully!) a number of years ago. I volunteer at a summer camp where all of our counsellors are volunteers. I was tending to my own group of kids one afternoon when I overheard a commotion a couple of cabins down from mine. The counsellor was yelling over-the-top abusive comments and I heard the sound of a kid crying.

I'm ashamed to admit that my first -- and only -- thought was along the lines of "Wow, I wonder what kind of game they're playing over there." It never occurred to me to something might be wrong. This guy was a new counsellor, sure, but the camp director personally vouched for him, end everyone undergoes screening, so surely...

I use that story now when we train new staff. Never assume. If in doubt, check it out.

Shrink said:

This is good to hear.

I wonder if there is a difference between being witness to an accident, and a situation of criminal violence. The accident, it might be said, is random. In a sense, impersonal. A violent criminal act is purposeful, with a clear intention to harm, which could then be turned upon us - the bystander.

I'm not at all sure - just a thought.

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I think this is a good point - the accident presumably is over by the time you get there, whereas violence could turn on you. Nevertheless, that's still a pretty cynical, self-centered position to take (albeit for most people subconsciously one would hope), and there's a world of difference between not getting physically involved with a violent person and not even bothering to alert appropriate authorities so they can intervene.

That's fairly disgusting. I'd have called the police, but who knows if they would have got there in time?

Daffodil said:

I think this is a good point - the accident presumably is over by the time you get there, whereas violence could turn on you. Nevertheless, that's still a pretty cynical, self-centered position to take (albeit for most people subconsciously one would hope), and there's a world of difference between not getting physically involved with a violent person and not even bothering to alert appropriate authorities so they can intervene.

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I'm wondering if that difference is, for the lack of a more precise phrase, psychologically isomorphic. That is, direct intervention (jumping into the assault), and indirect intervention (calling the police), are, in some way, not as different as they appear logically - but are equivalent psychologically.

I have nothing to back this up empirically - just a guess.

Shrink said:

I'm wondering if that difference is, for the lack of a more precise phrase, psychologically isomorphic. That is, direct intervention (jumping into the assault), and indirect intervention (calling the police), are, in some way, not as different as they appear logically - but are equivalent psychologically.

I have nothing to back this up empirically - just a guess.

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Yeah, that would make sense. Man is not quite as rational/logical as he wishes he were.

It's like this case in the social sciences where this lady in a NYC suburban apartment was being raped and was killed at the end,

Police reports said that over 20 people heard the screams for help but nobody called for help because they each thought somebody would dial 911 but nobody did.

Dagless said:

That's fairly disgusting. I'd have called the police, but who knows if they would have got there in time?

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At least you had the decency to report it to the police. Your call might have save the girl or apprehend the criminal.

If you could hear her screaming like that, how would you feel or rather do if that was your friend or daughter or wife or sister or mother?

what are you all on about , that's normal behaviour in western society of today and more and more in eastern too as they get capitalism .
if there is accident people come watching , even park their cars in the middle of the road to have a closer look and take pictures with their mobiles instead of helping , same happens if someone get beaten to death .
People are more concerned that their mobile phone battery is charged then interested in helping someone in need .

People today are not interested in getting involved in anything , they all have their own problems in day to day live , so why bother about problems of others .They are all happy that it had not a effect on them if something happens to someone else ,simple as that .

Can't always have a policeman around when you need one. The second amendment is your friend.

ericrwalker said:

Can't always have a policeman around when you need one. The second amendment is your friend.

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Right.

Then the moron with the belt can be the moron with a gun.

Yup - great idea.

Simplistic solutions to complex problems...

Shrink said:

Right.

Then the moron with the belt can be the moron with a gun.

Yup - great idea.

Simplistic solutions to complex problems...

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God forbid that someone uses a gun to defend ones own life.

ericrwalker said:

God forbid that someone uses a gun to defend ones own life.

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Then by that logic the girl should have shot her father. IMO, as big an ******* that he is,that is a little excessive.I admit, the loss of a son of a bitch like the judge would not be a great loss to humanity. But putting aside my totally emotional reaction, and returning to reason, there are some conditions under which defending one's life with a gun are justifiable.

My problem is, that with so many guns around, defending oneself is far from the reason a majority of people are shot. That narrowly defined situation - I have a gun, you have a gun, and you are going to kill me - justifies self defense shooting. But how often does that happen??

Wrong story bro, did you read the OP's link?

"The noises on the night of March 11 came from a horrific killing. Svrzo and her co-worker were listening to Jayna Murray, who worked at Lululemon, suffer 322 wounds. The sounds were hammer, knife, wrench, rope and metal bars making contact with a human being."

Shrink said:

Then by that logic the girl should have shot her father. IMO, as big an ******* that he is,that is a little excessive.I admit, the loss of a son of a bitch like the judge would not be a great loss to humanity. But putting aside my totally emotional reaction, and returning to reason, there are some conditions under which defending one's life with a gun are justifiable.

My problem is, that with so many guns around, defending oneself is far from the reason a majority of people are shot. That narrowly defined situation - I have a gun, you have a gun, and you are going to kill me - justifies self defense shooting. But how often does that happen??

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As a gun owner myself, I would only shoot in self defense. Pointing a gun at me is grounds for self defense.

Shrink said:

Then by that logic the girl should have shot her father. IMO, as big an ******* that he is,that is a little excessive.I admit, the loss of a son of a bitch like the judge would not be a great loss to humanity. But putting aside my totally emotional reaction, and returning to reason, there are some conditions under which defending one's life with a gun are justifiable.

My problem is, that with so many guns around, defending oneself is far from the reason a majority of people are shot. That narrowly defined situation - I have a gun, you have a gun, and you are going to kill me - justifies self defense shooting. But how often does that happen??

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anotonin said:

If you could hear her screaming like that, how would you feel or rather do if that was your friend or daughter or wife or sister or mother?

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See I just thought it was common sense, that's why I find this whole thing disgusting. That otherwise perfectly functioning individuals without the threat of repercussions, would not call the police if something bad was happening. All it takes is a quick call.

Honestly I'm shocked. I wouldn't bring up a family where that mentality exists.

interrobang said:

Nothing new to anyone who has taken a Psych 101 course. People don't get involved unless they're directly confronted.

If you ever take a first aid course, they'll tell you that if you have to tend to someone who needs emergency services, you have to look a specific bystander in the eye, point at them, and say, "You! Go call 911! Now!" Nobody will ever take any action if you just say, "Someone call 911!"

I love the reporter's spin about how Apple employees are monsters. Of course they are. We're all monsters.

Click to expand...

Wait, really? Is this really how people think...? I've called 911 tons of times. Sometimes upon being the first person to see it occur, and sometimes being part of a crowd. If someone says "Someone call 911" my phone's always the first one out. I really don't understand why *everyone* wouldn't be calling...

(Incredible things seem to follow me...I've witnessed bank robberies, gunshot victims, crazy car crashes, found unconscious people bleeding in the street...it's become a running joke among my friends, actually.)

What kind of ultra-violent neighborhood do you live in, actually? Or what is your occupation?

'cause even I didn't get to be in a place where human life was in danger and where police/firfefighters/ambulance was not already there.